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Scylfing
2009-03-13, 08:56 AM
I was taking another look at the Bard variants on the SRD site and it occurred to me that there might be a big hole in the Divine Bard relating to armor and spellcasting.

It says that this variant class casts its spells as divine spells rather than arcane, using Wisdom to determine highest spell level but Charisma for DCs, bonus spells, etc., but nothing is mentioned about whether or not this Bard retains its spellcasting failure percentage in armor heavier than light or with shields. Now Arcane Spell Failure is exactly that, for arcane spells only, as the divine casters all tend to wear heavy armor and cast divine spells just fine. Does this mean that Divine Bards ignore spell failure chances?

I don't have Unearthed Arcana so maybe something got left out, and yeah they'd still need to get the armor proficiencies but this seems like a huge benefit for little to no cost (the extra casting stat and losing some alignment-based spells, though these were already to balance the gain of some very nice spells to its class list). Am I missing something?

Kobold-Bard
2009-03-13, 09:03 AM
I could be wrong, but as I understand it the Unearthed Arcana variants don't change anything unless the entry specifically says so. They are after all just alternate Class Features rather than new classes. So I personally would keep Spell Failure. But maybe someone more experienced will prove me wrong.

Everyman
2009-03-13, 09:45 AM
Actually, the divine spell casting does remove ASF. However, you still don't have proficiency with medium or heavy armor. So, while you could cast in fullplate, you're going to need to multiclass or spend feats to do so.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-13, 10:13 AM
but this seems like a huge benefit for little to no cost (the extra casting stat and losing some alignment-based spells, though these were already to balance the gain of some very nice spells to its class list). Am I missing something?Bards are already a bit MAD. Tossing in yet another stat that they need points in hurts them a lot. Losing ASF really only means that they can, with a one-level dip, eliminate their need for Dex. It's either an even trade or a nerf, depending on rolls.

Darth Stabber
2009-03-13, 10:51 AM
Heavy metal bard FOR THE WIN!

JaxGaret
2009-03-14, 02:26 PM
this seems like a huge benefit

It's a rather small benefit, actually.

Scylfing
2009-03-14, 03:00 PM
Bards are already a bit MAD. Tossing in yet another stat that they need points in hurts them a lot. Losing ASF really only means that they can, with a one-level dip, eliminate their need for Dex. It's either an even trade or a nerf, depending on rolls.

That is a good point, but they don't lose as much for dropping Dex if they can get the armor proficiencies since they still get good Reflex saves from their class. Also while they won't get very much out of that high Wis they'll still only need it to cap out at 16, which is still pretty high but a regular Bard would want a much higher Dex than that so it's still less MAD and it makes things a bit easier on the Dex-penalty races.

Plus you get to cast stuff like Greater Invisibility, Song of Discord, Project Image and Greater Shout without spell failure/Still Spell, that's pretty sweet.

But yeah it depends on the point buy or rolls, though if you're going to make a Bard anyway you're already expecting that.


It's a rather small benefit, really, if not a negligible one, since most Divine Bards aren't going to invest in Medium or Heavy armor anyway.

A pure Divine Bard probably wouldn't, but what about dipping into/Gestalting with Crusader or Paladin of Freedom (Cha synergy) or Cleric or Psychic Warrior (Wis)?

JaxGaret
2009-03-14, 03:00 PM
this seems like a huge benefit

It's a rather small benefit, really, if not a negligible one, since most Divine Bards aren't going to invest in Medium or Heavy armor anyway.

Trouvere
2009-03-14, 04:23 PM
If you're going to go to the trouble of playing a Divine Bard, you might as well dip for heavy armor proficiency. Since you've just lost a caster level, you might as well give up the idea of concentrating on your spellcasting. If you're not casting spells that require saves, then... you don't really have much need for Charisma (except, of course, for bonus spells/day, and for fascinate and suggestion). Your Wisdom only needs to reach 16 for 6th level spells by 18th level. So, unlike most casters, you don't need to push a primary spellcasting ability through the roof. Now you can concentrate on Str and Con. Say hello to the dwarven Divine Bard with Cha 6! :smallwink:

Now he's the guy who looks like a cleric, but - in full plate - leaps off a cliff to reach enemies, feather falls the last few feet, and casts Mirror Image. Tell me that's not cool.

Human Paragon 3
2009-03-14, 05:31 PM
This idea intrigues me. Any good suggestions for a Bard/Crusader prestiege class?

Wih
2009-03-14, 06:25 PM
Divine Bard/Crusader/Turn Undead Class/Ruby Knight Vindicator?

Scylfing
2009-03-14, 08:15 PM
I was wondering about prestige classes myself and, browsing dandwiki found this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Songmaiden_of_Selune_(DnD_Prestige_Class)): It's homebrew but Turn Undead via Bardic Music, plus Inspire Courage progression and advanced spellcasting progression (up to 8th level spells, though with its own class list). Hard qualifications though.

Go Crusader 1/Divine Bard 6/Songmaiden of Selune 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 9 (you'd have to reflavor RKV, although Selune and Wee Jas are kind of mirror opposites of each other) and get a 17th level divine caster/15th level martial initiator with 17 BAB, bardic music, turn undead and RKV goodness. Hmm. This fits a character concept I've been playing around with surprisingly well, I may have to build this.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-14, 10:46 PM
This idea intrigues me. Any good suggestions for a Bard/Crusader prestiege class?Take the Song of the White Raven feat. Not a PrC, but eh.

Now Divine Bard/Prestige Paladin with Devoted Preformer, that has potential...

Human Paragon 3
2009-03-15, 01:03 AM
I'm skeptical. The PrC Paladin is only half casting. How about Bardic Sage, Divine Bard, Mystic Theurge instead?

Mr.Moron
2009-03-15, 01:06 AM
I'm skeptical. The PrC Paladin is only half casting. How about Bardic Sage, Divine Bard, Mystic Theurge instead?

Mystic Theurge is questionable enough with standard progressing classes. With bard on both sides (slow progression) you're just asking for a world of hurt. Not to mention it wouldn't advance music.

Human Paragon 3
2009-03-15, 01:08 AM
I was kidding. But divine bard can't even qualify for Prestige Paladin without a cleric dip for turn undead. And at that point, wouldn't you rather just go cleric/prestige paladin?

EDIT: Is that an Alton Brown avatar? If so, you're my new hero.

Chineselegolas
2009-03-15, 01:13 AM
Heavy metal bard FOR THE WIN!
Heh heh

Divine casting has no spell failure from armour, only arcane IIRC