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The Rose Dragon
2009-03-14, 10:18 AM
Are there any good, serious, gritty and detailed post-apoc games that can be used to model a wide array of post-apoc settings?

I found that most games in the market focus too much on "roleplaying" and not enough on "game". So you get post-apoc settings where you have infinite ammo, never have to worry about starvation and thirst on a regular basis and so forth.

Also, what kinds of apocalypses are there for post-apoc settings?

Graymayre
2009-03-14, 10:29 AM
The D20 future supplement of D20 Modern has a section devoted entirely to making a post apocalyptic campaign setting. There is plenty of detail in it. Not only that, but I think there is a D20 Apocalypse supplement to the D20 Modern game which is nothing but delicious end-of-the-world goodness.

P.S. Grammar Gestapo: the title should say "That doesn't feature zombies"

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-14, 10:32 AM
No, it should say "Which Don't Feature Zombies", since it refers to Post-Apoc Games, a plural.

Actually, I do have d20 Modern, d20 Future, d20 Apocalypse, d20 Cyberscape, d20 Past, Urban Arcana and d20 Menace Manual.

It's just that... it's d20. It's never gonna be gritty.

Inhuman Bot
2009-03-14, 10:34 AM
Assuming you don't mind D&D, you could look at Dark Sun, which is post-magical apocolypse. I haven't played it myself, but I've heard that it's pretty good.

Wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Sun

There's also the Fallout PnP, which my experiance is similar.

The fallout wiki's link
http://pnp.fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-14, 10:45 AM
Yeah, maybe I should have been more specific.

Sci-fi post-apoc games. Not fantasy post-apoc games (although a dash of fantasy is acceptable, the primary aspect should be sci-fi).

Tsotha-lanti
2009-03-14, 10:46 AM
You want gritty post-apocalypse, huh? Does "most realistic yet smooth small-arms squad-level combat system in any RPG ever" count? Well, there's also a ton of rules about survival - shelter, food, water, disease...

Twilight 2013 (http://www.93gamesstudio.com/twilight2013/).

It's freaking splendiferous.


Other than that, Unisystem works great - AFMBE without zombies can be just as good, and the survival rules in One of the Living are pretty great. I chose Unisystem as my platform for a Fallout homebrew because, well, it's great.

Edit: Actually, never mind small-arms, it's also got great artillery and vehicle combat rules.

grinner666
2009-03-14, 10:46 AM
Twilight: 2000 from GDW, if you can still find it. Excellent, realistic combat system and backstory.

:smallbiggrin:

Of course, you'll have to change the timeline so what's going on in the story happens in 2020 or so . . .

:smallwink:

[EDIT:] Oops. Ninja'd. :smalltongue:

Tsotha-lanti
2009-03-14, 11:00 AM
Having played both, TW2013 beats TW2000 in all respects, but most especially combat. TW2000 combat was clunky and odd. TW2013 combat is freaking amazing.

Satyr
2009-03-14, 11:22 AM
If you can work with a German text, there is always DeGenesis (http://www.degenesis.de/). Which is awesome, and free.

And even though it is absolutely complementary to the No Zombie aspect, All Flesh Must Be Eaten, and especially the splat book One of the Living, is one of the best ressources for survival in a postapocalyptic world. But, since it's a Unisystem game, AFMBE is a greatly flexible game, that doesn't need the Zombies to be great; they are just a bonus.

And there is always Gurps. It is mechanically one of the best game around, and there are at least two postapocalyptic settings for it, which are available as pdfs, or just take the basic game and build it yourself with a great rules for it. Especially if you want to have a broader array of settings, and not one specific, Gurps is probably your best choice.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-14, 11:25 AM
From what I can tell from the reviews I've read, Twilight: 2013 has a different problem altogether: it has too much detail for too little benefit.

It also has a bad presentation, apparently, but that's not a very big problem (or at least wouldn't be if I could get my hands on the ruleset alone).

I might take a look at the Unisystem, though. Which form would you suggest for a generic post-apoc game?

EDIT: Ah, DeGenesis. One of the games that I eagerly await to be translated into English (the other one is Wuxia).

Sadly, my German skills are only enough to tell other people I don't speak it well, to ask the time and be introduced to people.

Satyr
2009-03-14, 11:35 AM
All Flesh Must Be Eaten + One of the Living (+All Tomorow Zombies for a stronger Science Fiction element) is a good base for a hunter and scavenger game, with only little to no supernatural elements in it.

Armageddon is not post-apocalyptic, as it is an apocalyptic war setting; the united forces of Heaven, Hell, Asgard and Olympos (and others) fight against cthulloid monstrosities from beyond reality; it is much stronger focused on supernatural events, and warfare.

Witchcraft (http://www.edenstudios.net/witchcraft/WitchcraftCorebook.zip) is neither of those, but it has the great advantage that it is free.

You could probably combine most of the games.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-03-14, 12:16 PM
From what I can tell from the reviews I've read, Twilight: 2013 has a different problem altogether: it has too much detail for too little benefit.

It also has a bad presentation, apparently, but that's not a very big problem (or at least wouldn't be if I could get my hands on the ruleset alone).

Not sure what "bad presentation" is supposed to be - I can't think of anything. A poorly laid-out rulebook? Definitely not. I also don't think there's too much detail. Sure, tracking gear can be a hassle, but that's half the fun of a game where you have to scavenge. And the combat system is nowhere near as obsessively slow as, say, Rolemaster's.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-14, 12:18 PM
Bad representation refers to things such as "English Royal Family" and bad art, which are some of the complaints I've heard about the book. As well as other implausible things about the WW III.

JellyPooga
2009-03-14, 12:22 PM
Also, what kinds of apocalypses are there for post-apoc settings?

- Zombies! (virus, "hell's full", voodoo)
- Rise of the Machines (rogue AI, matrix)
- Nuke'd (a-bomb, virus, natural disaster, meteor)
- Everyone's gone mad! (mutants, ultimate war, virus)
- The [insert religion of choice] were right! - Armageddon, Hell on Earth, etc.
- The bad guys won - One person or group has taken over the world, plunging it into a new dark age as they reap the worlds wealth for themselves.

Just a couple of ideas to get you going...

P.S. To anyone playing in my 'Welcome to the Apocalypse' game: You may be encountering any or all of the above...interpret that as you will :smallamused:

alchemyprime
2009-03-14, 01:11 PM
If you wanna use D&D rules and refluff magic to be tech for the most part, adapt the old cartoon "Thundarr the Barbarian!" Nothing beats going around with an evolved lion and a mutant "sorceress" (1001 Uses for YEllow Glass) while weilding a lightsaber sun sword...

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-14, 01:15 PM
Why would I want to use D&D rules? :smallconfused:

I said "good, serious, gritty and detailed". I don't see D&D particularly fitting into any of those.

Radar
2009-03-14, 01:18 PM
I would say, that Neuroshima has an interesting world, but it most likely is totally inaccessible. Yet, you could introduce some of it's concepts to your game anyway:
1. Limited food/water/ammo/fuel is an obvious thing.
2. Possible shops rarely have good stuff to sell and mostly contain random items. This makes for example finding ammo suitable for your particular gun more difficult.
3. No cash - barter only.
4. Each character rolls an incurable disease at creation. This means, that one has to take a specific medicine on a regular basis which may or may not be easily avaliable. Not taking said medicine will gradually worsen characters health. For example Saturday Night Fever makes you more sensitive to daylight. At first it would only cause sunburns more often. Then going out without a tight overcoat, a big hat and strong sunglasses would result in severe burns and blindness. In terminal state one could rip your skin off with a flashlight.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-14, 01:25 PM
I would say, that Neuroshima has an interesting world, but it most likely is totally inaccessible. Yet, you could introduce some of it's concepts to your game anyway:
1. Limited food/water/ammo/fuel is an obvious thing.
2. Possible shops rarely have good stuff to sell and mostly contain random items. This makes for example finding ammo suitable for your particular gun more difficult.
3. No cash - barter only.

Too bad it's in Polish.

1 is a given in most gritty post-apoc games. 2 is half correct, in that they don't contain random items, but they do rarely contain more than simple stuff and junk. I'm against 3, because I already have a cash system on mind (based on Fallout and Fallout 3's bottle caps), where things representative of water such as bottle caps and water skins can be used at a pretty standard rate.

overduegalaxy
2009-03-14, 01:54 PM
I don't have any personal experience with either, but Fallout d20 or Fallout GURPS might, at the very least, be a good starting point.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-14, 01:56 PM
Sad fact: there are no GURPS .pdf's on RPGNow.com. Which prevents me from following through with my potential interest in it.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-14, 02:24 PM
Rifts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifts_(role-playing_game)) is a very good (and unique!) flavor of a post-apocalyptic setting.

Call of Cthulhu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_of_Cthulhu_(role-playing_game)) works well for any "gritty" world you want to use.

Deadland: Hell on Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadlands:_Hell_on_Earth) is another neat spin on the setting.

Any of those look good to you?

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-14, 02:26 PM
I am very interested in Hell on Earth but for two things.

1. It seems to take somethings for granted according to what I've read about it.

2. It has too many supplements and I can't afford to spend that much.

EDIT: I've heard great things about RIFTS the setting and terrible things about RIFTS the ruleset. And honestly, I need a ruleset more than a setting.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-14, 02:31 PM
So... what rules are you looking for exactly?

I mean, you can force the players to eat and drink normally, keep track of ammo, and use whatever barter system you want.

"Hell on Earth" can actually be played with just the main book (it's what I did) and it includes rules for radiation poisoning - which I haven't seen anywhere else.

EDIT: Oh, and the price is right (http://www.studio2publishing.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=27_86&products_id=2016)

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-14, 02:35 PM
So... what rules are you looking for exactly?

I mean, you can force the players to eat and drink normally, keep track of ammo, and use whatever barter system you want.

Yes, but it requires me to come up with ammunition counts of weapons and rules for starvation and barter.

I want the system to have taken care of those, even in the form of optional rules. Because my house rules tend towards "if it doesn't kill all the characters when invoked, it ain't good enough".

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-14, 02:40 PM
Yes, but it requires me to come up with ammunition counts of weapons and rules for starvation and barter.

I want the system to have taken care of those, even in the form of optional rules. Because my house rules tend towards "if it doesn't kill all the characters when invoked, it ain't good enough".

Ah. I think Hell on Earth has starvation/thirst rules, but I know that all the weapons have a magazine size and a description of how hard it can be to buy real bullets.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-14, 02:50 PM
Tell you what, can you write a review of Deadlands: Hell on Earth (Deadlands rules, not d20)? If you can, please PM me about it so I'll be able to decide easier. In return, you get to win 100 cool pointz and 3 internetz.

Tyrmatt
2009-03-14, 03:56 PM
GURPS has always won out for me in Post-apoc.
Crib shamelessly from the various settings to suit your flavour and be as strict as you want with ammo drops.
Or just get the basic GURPS set and make up everything you want to feature.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-14, 03:57 PM
Ahem.
.


Sad fact: there are no GURPS .pdf's on RPGNow.com. Which prevents me from following through with my potential interest in it.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-03-14, 05:38 PM
That's probably on account of SJG having their own webstore (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG31-0004).

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-14, 05:44 PM
So does Green Ronin, but that doesn't stop them from putting products on RPGNow.com.

Though since it's free, I will download that one anyway. I just don't buy anything from somewhere else due to trust issues.

Satyr
2009-03-14, 05:52 PM
There is absolutely no problem with e23. I buy all my pdf's there and I never had any problems.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-14, 06:03 PM
The credit card isn't mine, though. So the trust issues are not completely mine.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-15, 09:59 AM
So, what supplement do I need to play post-apoc games with GURPS, anyway?

Mark Hall
2009-03-15, 01:22 PM
You might take a look at "Apocalypse Prevention, Inc" and the DGS. While the game-as-written assumes that you're trying to prevent an apocalypse, the system would work pretty well for a post-apocalyptic game. If you want just straight up sci-fi, stripping out other races and magic is easy, and there are good rules for basic cybernetics. If you want to do exposure survival stuff, API: Canada includes that.

Satyr
2009-03-15, 03:19 PM
So, what supplement do I need to play post-apoc games with GURPS, anyway?

Actually, everything you need to create your own setting is in the core books, but Reign of Steel is a setting with a similar taste to Terminator, sans the timetravels. High Tech includes everything in questions of technology, including everything resembling weapons.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-15, 03:21 PM
Actually, everything you need to create your own setting is in the core books, but Reign of Steel is a setting with a similar taste to Terminator, sans the timetravels. High Tech includes everything in questions of technology, including everything resembling weapons.

Core books defined as?

Satyr
2009-03-15, 03:46 PM
Core books are Gurps: Characters (the player book) and Campaigns (the gamemaster book).

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-15, 04:11 PM
Honestly, I'm expected to pay $55 for two .pdf's?

If I was gonna do that, wouldn't it be better for me to buy HERO?

Brock Samson
2009-03-17, 04:44 AM
I concur about Deadlands: Hell on Earth. You're welcome to not include any of the zombies/supernatural critters, and you'll still get the same feel, minus a bit of the constant insane unknown threats around your back every second causing real-life nervousness. It's just.... tops.