Most Sympathetic villains in life or fiction [Archive]

Jack_Banzai

2009-03-14, 03:33 PM

Rasputin. Infamous and creepy and all kinds of bad news, but you have to admire how he stuck it to the man.

The Comedian (Watchmen). A very cruel and bloodthirsty dude who was particularly bad to women, but you can't help but admire the guy a little.

The Baroness (G.I. Joe). Sure she's evil and wants to take out America just because of a little misplaced anger with Snake-Eyes, but so hot! Want to touch the hiney! AROOOOOOOO!

Wile E. Coyote. Damn if you don't want him to catch that roadrunner just once.

Querzis

2009-03-14, 03:43 PM

I'll have to second Rommel. Though honestly, since he never obeyed any of Hitlers orders concerning the jews and actually treated prisonners better then most british did, I have a really hard time considering him evil at all.

Anyway, Klaus Wulfenback. Sure tecnically hes an evil despot and hes the first one to admit it, but in the world they live in he see no other way to keep the Sparks from destroying the world and from everything we saw until now hes right.

Tengu_temp

2009-03-14, 03:44 PM

You mean Erwin Rommel? Edwin Rommel was a pitcher.

Um, yeah. Talk about a silly mistake.

EDIT: Also, in my opinion, Magus from Chrono Trigger.

I'm not sure if bad guys who become good guys later qualify here.

Wile E. Coyote. Damn if you don't want him to catch that roadrunner just once.

Oh yeah, him and Tom from Tom & Jerry. You know you stop being a small, stupid kid and start being a slightly larger, slightly less stupid kid when you start rooting for the "bad guy"* in these cartoons.

* - In commas because their prey is usually much more of a d*ck. Need I remind anyone of the musketeer episode where Tom got beheaded because he couldn't stop Jerry from stealing the king's food?

Oregano

2009-03-14, 03:46 PM

Golbez is pretty interesting.

How could I forget Golbez!!!

He really does go the Darth Vader route, starts off as just a bad guy but gets more and more sympathetic as it goes on.

Is Vader really sympathetic at all until Return though(or may be the end of Empire?).

GoC

2009-03-14, 04:16 PM

Anyway, Klaus Wulfenback. Sure tecnically hes an evil despot and hes the first one to admit it, but in the world they live in he see no other way to keep the Sparks from destroying the world and from everything we saw until now hes right.

Seconded..

Closet_Skeleton

2009-03-14, 04:37 PM

Oh yeah, him and Tom from Tom & Jerry. You know you stop being a small, stupid kid and start being a slightly larger, slightly less stupid kid when you start rooting for the "bad guy"* in these cartoons.

Seconded.

The problem with sympathetic villains is that they're often opposed by a poorly characterised protagonist, thus making evil seem the more well thought out and superior side.

Better to not have heroes or villains at all and just be equally sympathetic to everybody.

Athaniar

2009-03-14, 05:07 PM

Was Thrawn intended to be a fictionalized version of Rommel? If so, then yes- maybe sympathetic villains of some types tend to be very similar.

There is a letter (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Letter_to_Timothy_Zahn2A.JPG) in which Zahn explains that Thrawn is an amalgam of several military leaders through the ages. Anyway, I agree with Thrawn being sympathetic, he had very good reasons for helping Palpatine:

Palpatine wanted to hinder the Yuuzhan Vong invasion by forming a galaxy-spanning Empire.

Of course, old Palpatine was still very, very evil. If he was actually good, things might have worked out different for the galaxy...

Dihan

2009-03-14, 05:45 PM

Mithos Yggdrasill from Tales of Symphonia.

Talkkno

2009-03-14, 05:50 PM

I wanted Thrawn to win, he kept the galxey in much better order then the fragmented New Republic. :smallfrown:

Piedmon_Sama

2009-03-14, 07:59 PM

Charles XII of Sweden. Read about that guy, and yes objectively you have to admit he ended up getting hundreds of thousands of his people killed over an Empire that wasn't really tenable in the first place, persecuted war past the point of reason and ignored every opportunity to resolve things with even a modicum less bloodshed. Not only did he end up achieving nothing, but his own death due to a moment's exposure from behind a trenchwork was a pointless tragedy, arguably a fitting memorial to his reign.

But Goddamn, he was a badass. Dude would deprive himself and live under conditions any of Europe's other crowned heads would never even consider while on campaign. On the very day the third member of the alliance against Sweden (Russia) declared war, Charles stormed Copenhagen and forced the King of Denmark to surrender. Later that year at Narva, he faced a Russian army of 33,000 against his own of 8,000. Nutty as a fruitcake, Charles ordered a charge, and as God wept to see such badassness, a snowstorm descended on the Russian army which allowed the Swedes to maul them, capturing so many prisoners they simply sent anyone who wasn't a high officer home. Charles repeatedly kicked the hell out of much larger Russian and Polish/Livonian forces with a mixture of speed and "what the hell no one's that crazy"-ness.

It's a shame he had to order the brutal execution of John Patkul by breaking on the wheel followed by quartering, essentially for dissing his dad (ignoring the fact Patkul was Peter I's embassador with immunity). This was pretty much the only time Charles ever did anything extraordinarily cruel for his time and place, but still. :smallfrown:

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I heard Charles has been co-opted by some Neo-Nazi jerks as a symbol of Swedishness or whatever. Bad form, please don't let modern toolbags reflect on a guy who died roughly 200 years before modern fascism was any kind of active idea. :/

Kato

2009-03-14, 08:12 PM

D'oh, I can't find the link for Blitzkrieg-kun... But maybe I'd better be careful with such jokes being German and stuff. (It's just cute, if I find it I'll put it here)

On topic:
(Media) World nowadays is full of sympathic villains. Some people want their old 'I'm evil for the sake of it' guys back (that's where e.g. Ali gets his fandom) but people with a reason are just more entertaining to me.

Though, I just can't put a finger on the most sympathic. Anime's just full of them... Probably every second Gundam villain is nice to the level of more sympathic than the hero.... Okay, I tried, but I can't resist... there is Char, who people probably love more than anyone else in the franchise and half his expies'd qualify as well (the villainious ones at least) Or was I the only one betting on Zechs and Treize? (Come on, they were up against Heero...) (Btw, who's the villain in 0080?)
I just thought if there was really a villain I hoped would beat the hero... but somewhere of all of them passed the line and they had to fail, sadly. Though... borderline example: Is L the villain in DN? If so, he'd probably win there.
No... nothing else to really distunguish this load of great villains out there, sorry...

RL is way more complicated. Who is a villain? Those who break the law? Those who start wars to kill other? The soldiers fighting on the 'wrong' side? Okay, maybe there have been crazy dictators who were kind to their guests, but who isn't? Even Hitler (yeah, gotta get that one) would treat you kindly if you were not there to kill him I guess. Or Stalin. Or Mussolini. Does it make them sympathic?
Okay, I'll resist to turn this thing into a political debate, just generally: Is the enemy's general a villain if he's just following orders given to him and treats his men and prisoner's with respect? Argh, let's just stay in media...
(Last note: Glad no one here got confused by that stupid 'Walküre' movie and nominated Stauffenberg)

sun_tzu

2009-03-14, 08:14 PM

Seconding Thrawn. Also Klaus Wulfenbach, though I wonder f he even qualifies as a villain at all (I mean, sure, he's a tyrant and he's an antagonist...but the "tyrant" part is because he's trying to keep the continent from tearing itself apart in a 50-way war, and the "antagonist" part is due to Big Bad-induced misunderstandings. Hell, he and the heroine have come very close to actually working together for the greater good (and he actually DID that with the previous generation of heroes)).
Also, the Wolkenritters from the second season of Nanoha. Sure, they're following a plan that's getting people hurt and is a really, really bad idea...But once you understand why they're doing it, you're likely to actually root for them.
Also also: Inspector Javert. Most honest guy in the world, just trying to do the right thing no matter what. Unfortunately, his idea of the Right Thing falls somewhere under Lawful Stupid, and he wastes a lot of time and effort hunting down a "criminal" who really, really, really doesn't belong behind bars.

Rutskarn

2009-03-14, 08:21 PM

Klaus Wulfenbach is a major contender, for sure.

Also, the Operative from Serenity, while undoubtedly evil, was at least complex enough to be sympathetic for some.

Finn Solomon

2009-03-14, 08:23 PM

Hannibal for me, and depending on what you believe, possibly Judas. :smallwink:

arguskos

2009-03-14, 08:30 PM

Hannibal for me, and depending on what you believe, possibly Judas. :smallwink:
Not so much on the Hannibal for me, but in some ways, I can dig Judas. Anyways, on to my personal preferences:

-Jonaleth Irenicus. Anyone who knows him should get it. :smallwink:

-The Operative, from Serenity. He is just human enough to be sympathetic with, and still creepy enough to be a good bad guy.

-*sigh* I'll actually say it: Anakin Skywalker. Seriously. Just cause he was AMAZINGLY poorly characterized in the films doesn't mean he wasn't a generally nice guy who just wanted to do good. He was seduced by evil, and by the time he realized it, it was all over. Though, I can't help but feel a little bad for him at the end of it all.

Those are the main ones I really connect with.

charl

2009-03-14, 08:38 PM

Mr Freeze was mentioned. Hulk, especially the Ultimate Marvel version, also. Why can't they just leave him alone? =(

I don't think there is such a thing as a villain in real life. It's all just opposing views.

Weezer

2009-03-14, 08:51 PM

I think Ozymandias (Watchmen (the comic not the movie)) is very sympathetic, he was just trying to save the world as best he could. He was undeniably evil, but it was the most sympathetic of evils, that which was intended for good.

Tensu

2009-03-14, 09:20 PM

Myra (breath of fire III): she almost made me surrender to her. I mean preventing guns and nuclear warfare from ever being a threat and saving the world from an infinitely spreading desert of death was almost enough to make me forgive mass-brainwashing and genocide... almost. She tops my list mainly because in that moment of hesitation, of considering what would be the most ethical decision in this hypothetical situation, (and this is going to sound REALLY stupid) I learned a little about myself, and what I consider to be right and wrong.

Prince Yumil (Ogre battle 64): Poor, poor Yumil. I'm not even sure if I can call him a bad guy his intentions where so noble. and aside from summoning demons that one time he never really did anything bad... we just had a difference of opinion.

Gannondorf (tLoZ: Wind Waker): and all this time we thought Gannondorf was just selfish. He was just looking out for his people, doing his duty as a king. I really can't fault him for that.

Zant (tLoZ: Twilight Princess): I felt I made a huge mistake when Midna destroyed the mirror. I mean at least Zant cared about his people and wouldn't have doomed them to being imprisoned forever for something their great great great great grandparents did, even after their deities said it was ok and they could go free now. sure he turned his people into monsters, but Zant was confused and angry. I bet after Gannondorf fell I could have convinced Zant to be a much better leader than that ungrateful explicative Midna could ever have been.

every monster in lost magic (Lost Magic): Heck, I thought all the humans in the game where little more than complete A-holes who screwed up bad and where unwilling to pay the price because they where selfish little ingrates.

The Wolf (most fairy tales): don't hate me because I'm a carnivore.

The Giant's Wife (into the woods): One might easily say Jack was the real villain here.

I also agree on Tom and Wile E.

In real life I think Nixon gets a worse reputation than he deserves. All paranoia aside, he had the nation's best interests at heart.

Rutskarn

2009-03-14, 09:21 PM

-Jonaleth Irenicus. Anyone who knows him should get it. :smallwink:

I feel sorry for the guy, but I don't think I actually sympathize with him, per se.

During the events of Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn, he's a cold killer without any humanity (elfmanity?) left in him.

The Rose Dragon

2009-03-14, 09:21 PM

The Boss, if she counts as a villain. Ditto Big Boss.

The Master, who is awesome by being utterly villainous and despicable yet still sympathetic at the same time.

The Cuckoo from A Game of You.

Dacia Brabant

2009-03-14, 09:23 PM

Hannibal for me, and depending on what you believe, possibly Judas. :smallwink:

Without even getting into prohibited subjects I would highly suggest reading about the Sicarii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicarii) before saying something like that (Iscariot is likely an early mistranscription of Sicariot, "Sicarios member") as they were pretty much the world's first terrorists. Not to say that Roman soldiers were any better though.

Ironic though that Hannibal got brought up in the same sentence.

Inspector Javert

Is about as sympathetic as Miko Miyazaki. :smallwink:

Now when I think of sympathetic villains, the first person to come to mind is Michael Corleone, who I consider to be the villain of The Godfather Saga and Vito Corleone the hero. He's sympathetic because when he was young he honestly was a good man and who, after his corruption, still believes he's doing what's best for his family even when he's destroying it.

He might still have been corrupted if he'd been able to become "Senator Corleone" but at least he wouldn't have ruined his family, which to his father was more important than anything else. Not to say that Vito was a good man by any stretch but since the saga was primarily about the family that still makes him the hero, and a tragic one at that since his greatest hope for his family ended up being its undoing.

arguskos

2009-03-14, 09:32 PM

I feel sorry for the guy, but I don't think I actually sympathize with him, per se.

During the events of Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn, he's a cold killer without any humanity (elfmanity?) left in him.
He's a killer because of what was done to him. Really, in the end, he's trying to win back the love of Ellesime and regain his emotions and feelings. His aim of godhood is just one more method of getting where he needs to go. Yes, he's horrifying in his brutality, but, he wants to be whole again. To what lengths will someone in pain go to heal themselves? Iunno, I see him as a sympathetic character. I can see if most people don't though.

SilentNight

2009-03-14, 09:35 PM

Gonna second the operative and Wile E. I'm also gonna throw in my vote for Light from the Deathnote Manga series. In the beginning of the series I couldn't decide who to root for as both L and Light were freaking awesome. As it progressed though after L died I hated Near and Mello so much I started hoping Light would win.

Rutskarn

2009-03-14, 09:45 PM

He's a killer because of what was done to him. Really, in the end, he's trying to win back the love of Ellesime and regain his emotions and feelings. His aim of godhood is just one more method of getting where he needs to go. Yes, he's horrifying in his brutality, but, he wants to be whole again. To what lengths will someone in pain go to heal themselves? Iunno, I see him as a sympathetic character. I can see if most people don't though.

I didn't see it that way.

It's true that he wanted to regain his emotions...at first. That was a project he abandoned out of frustration. He wanted godhood because he wanted godhood...because he wanted ultimate power. The only tragedy is that this megalomaniacal impulse is driven by his soullessness.

Fawkes

2009-03-14, 09:57 PM

(Last note: Glad no one here got confused by that stupid 'Walküre' movie and nominated Stauffenberg)

Are you talking about Valkyrie with Tom Cruise? I didn't see it, was it historily inaccurate?

Seonor

2009-03-14, 11:12 PM

Are you talking about Valkyrie with Tom Cruise? I didn't see it, was it historily inaccurate?

A discussion about that film will probably turn into politics, so I will just point you to two better films:

Sophie Scholl - the last days (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0426578/) is a good film about german resistance. Also try The Ninth Day (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0411702/).

sun_tzu

2009-03-15, 04:30 AM

Is about as sympathetic as Miko Miyazaki. :smallwink:

Speaking as a Miko non-hater? I thought Javert was a lot more sympathetic than her. Also, he thought the Law was always right, not himself. When he thought he had unfairly accused someone, he tried to resign (and this is a guy whose job is his entire life). When his superior (the very guy he had accused) tried to talk him out of it, his answer, paraphrased, was "All those years I punished others for breaking the law, and it was unfair. If I didn't now punish myself, it would make it all unfair."
My favorite damn character in the entire story.

Another very, very sympathetic villain: J. Saint Gideon, from "Tex Murphy: Overseer". A genuinely good man whose attempts to help the world were foiled at every turn by betrayal, who finally decides to do something drastic to stop the downward spiral. He had to be stopped, but damn if it didn't feel tragic ruining his final plan and breaking him for good.
Six years later (most of the game is flashbacks):
Tex: "Gideon was probably right."
Chelsea: "No. He. Wasn't. YOU were."

arguskos

2009-03-15, 04:36 AM

I didn't see it that way.

It's true that he wanted to regain his emotions...at first. That was a project he abandoned out of frustration. He wanted godhood because he wanted godhood...because he wanted ultimate power. The only tragedy is that this megalomaniacal impulse is driven by his soullessness.
If you watch the interaction between him and Ellesime at the Tree of Life when you confront him, his actions show otherwise. Yes, all that remains now is his hunger for revenge, but it's the fact that he's fallen so far from being so great that I find somewhat sympathetic. I feel for the guy, since all he's really trying to do is fix himself, in whatever way possible, be that your soul, godhood, whatever. Course, he's a psychotic murdering bastard by this point, but hey, what's a guy to do? :smallwink:

WitchSlayer

2009-03-15, 05:00 AM

Lex Luthor. Sort of.

Zenos

2009-03-15, 05:36 AM

I would say I find the Thousand Sons in Warhammer 40,000 somewhat more sympathetic than the other CSM legions. After all they were just trying to warn the Emperor of Horus's impending rebellion. And had to escape into the warp to escape the Space Wolves trying to slaughter them. That didn't end so well...

Although, being Warhammer 40k, most factions are villainous to a varying degree.

Closet_Skeleton

2009-03-15, 06:44 AM

He's a killer because of what was done to him. Really, in the end, he's trying to win back the love of Ellesime and regain his emotions and feelings. His aim of godhood is just one more method of getting where he needs to go. Yes, he's horrifying in his brutality, but, he wants to be whole again. To what lengths will someone in pain go to heal themselves? Iunno, I see him as a sympathetic character. I can see if most people don't though.

You're forgetting that he lost his soul and girlfriend because of the first time he tried to obtain godhood right? He was a power hungry guy with a good life who lost that life and still didn't learn his lesson.

arguskos

2009-03-15, 08:05 AM

You're forgetting that he lost his soul and girlfriend because of the first time he tried to obtain godhood right? He was a power hungry guy with a good life who lost that life and still didn't learn his lesson.
No, I'm not. I'm just saying that I sympathize with the guy! Sheesh, I'm being blasted for my personal preferences here!

I would argue with you about it, but I'm aware it's a lost cause (since I'm in the miniscule minority and I severely need to sleep, lest I say something insulting on accident), so I'll just let this go with this final note: it's just my opinion. You don't have to hold it and aren't required to understand/care. So, let's let it drop, yah? Though, should you want to continue this in private, I'm happy to do so. :smallcool:

JabberwockySupafly

2009-03-15, 02:12 PM

The Cuckoo from A Game of You.

Seconded with a great deal of fervor. A lot of Gaiman's villains, both Sandman and elsewhere, are either very sympathetic or at least have "human" moments. I mean, there's a few moments when you actually feel bad for Dr.Destiny as well, and that guy's a monster.

One I can't believe noone's mentioned yet:

Lucifer, from John Milton's Paradise Lost. Seriously, he's probably the first sympathetic villain, if not the world's first Anti-Hero.

matuty74

2009-03-15, 02:23 PM

Mithos Yggdrasill from Tales of Symphonia.

Seconded. He was the only villian of that series where I wanted something to work out for him. The others I more than happily beat the tar out off. Some want to see the world burn. Some want to get revenge. Some want to rule the world. He just wanted to see his sister again.

lisiecki

2009-03-15, 02:38 PM

Some Incarnations of Doctor Doom.

Quite often Doctor Doom is show to have made his homeland in to a utopia, and is only seen as a villian because his plans negitavly affect the homeland of the heros who keep harassing him

Talkkno

2009-03-15, 04:02 PM

Seconded. He was the only villian of that series where I wanted something to work out for him. The others I more than happily beat the tar out off. Some want to see the world burn. Some want to get revenge. Some want to rule the world. He just wanted to see his sister again.

He did, but he still didn't listen her anyways.

Tensu

2009-03-15, 04:43 PM

well, I'd by lying if I said I never felt any pity for Mithos, but it wasn't "I can see where you're coming from, but your not considering blank" pity and more "You poor, deluded fool" pity. I mean think of all the suffering he caused just because he was a scared little boy unable to come to terms with the reality of death. heck, he didn't even consider the feelings of the one person he wanted to bring back. sure he managed to spin a sob story in Genis's head but he's a huge hypocrite: everything was all about Mithos, as opposed to Villains like Myra and Yumil where everything they did was for the good of someone else. I was glad to take down Mithos.

Lupy

2009-03-15, 06:05 PM

The coyote from road runner, certainly.

Tom.

Bill Gates. :smalltongue:

Red Cloak.

Did I miss anyone?

Graymayre

2009-03-15, 09:03 PM

Does the Formic queen from the novel Ender's Game count?

Atelm

2009-03-16, 07:28 AM

Radi Jaegar and Selvaria Bles of Maximilian's Drei Stern. (Valkyria Chronicles)
Dhaos. (Tales of Phantasia)
Karla the Grey Witch, Ashram and Pirotess. (Record of Lodoss War)

This was pretty much the only time Charles ever did anything extraordinarily cruel for his time and place, but still. :smallfrown:

Said king however did order the burning of crops, etc, from areas he had to retreat from in Russia at least. I wouldn't call him sympathetic in the least.

Mithos Yggdrasill from Tales of Symphonia.

Thirded.

Satyr

2009-03-16, 07:42 AM

Even though probably no one here has ever heard of him: Sharraz Garthai.

zerombr

2009-03-16, 07:53 AM

Krelian from Xenogears

"There is no god...if there is no god, I shall create one with my bare hands."

Kcalehc

2009-03-16, 09:11 AM

Emperor Palpatine.

All he's trying to do is make a galaxy spanning empire, to spread peace and prosperity to all the races in the galaxy; allowing free trade, and having an efficient single central bureaucracy to maintain and controll it. And he has these damnable rebels stirring up trouble, killing his soldiers and trying to reinstate some hippie ideas about equality. Poor guy.

Please note mild to moderate sarcasm

Closet_Skeleton

2009-03-16, 11:26 AM

Fiery Diamond

2009-03-16, 12:01 PM

Actually, I thought Dhaos was a much more sympathetic villain than Mithos. Mithos, as stated earlier, Mithos just couldn't come to grips with death and even went so far as to reject his sister when he finally succeeded and she told him he was wrong. If he had let his sister talk some sense into him, that would be different. Also, his whole "I would do it all over again" speech at the end just proved he was a complete amoral jerk. I felt sorry for Mithos, but not enough to feel bad about killing the deluded fool.

Dhaos, on the other hand, was only trying to stop the destruction of the tree so that he could get a seed and return to his home planet with it. It went thusly:

Dhaos: Hey, stop using magitech!
People: Shut up! We'll do what we want!
Dhaos: ... Fine, I'll make you stop! *begins to attack with monsters, targeting only the ones using magitech and the biggest offender city*
Heroes: We've come to stop you, evil king!
Dhaos: Wait, hold up. You don't have anything to do with magitech. I don't need to fight you.
Heroes: Shut up and fight!
Dhaos: ...Fine, have it your way!
*lots of conflict*
Dhaos: Must...win...for...my...planet's...sake...
Heroes: DIE!

See, much more sympathetic.

Piedmon_Sama

2009-03-16, 12:01 PM

Said king however did order the burning of crops, etc, from areas he had to retreat from in Russia at least. I wouldn't call him sympathetic in the least.

That's weird, I've never heard anything about Charles XII retreating from Russia--everything I've read said he continued marching his army forward, while Peter I ordered a scorched earth policy to starve the Swedish army as winter approached. By the time Spring came, Charles' army had turned south into Ukraine and was reduced to just 9,000 men by famine, disease and Cossack guerillas. And the Battle of Poltava killed off the rest of them, with only Charles and his close circle escaping at the last moment (and this was over Charles' protests, because Captain Nutbag was shot in the heel and on a stretcher the whole time).

Tensu

2009-03-16, 02:10 PM

another Villain I'm sympathetic to, If you'd consider him a villain: Vlad the impaler. sure, his methods of torture and execution where appalling betrayals of the religion he was said to represent, but when you're trying to protect that religion and the people who follow it from genocidal extremists who also use appalling methods of torture and execution the lines blur a little. Vlad only did want he felt he had to to protect his people and his faith. and while he's seen as a villain here, in his home country he's more of a folk hero.

TheFallenOne

2009-03-16, 02:17 PM

Second Wile E. Coyote

Also:
Mephistopheles(Goethes Faust). Yes, he's The Big Evil, but damn you can't stop admiring him for the sheer amount of Pure Awesome he is. Best villain ever.

Hagen von Tronje(Nibelungenlied)

Tyler Durden of course

The criminals in Heat

Gaius Baltar

Calvin(Calvin and Hobbes). Damn that six year old kid does a lot of nasty stuff, but you still gotta love him <3

doliest

2009-03-16, 02:40 PM

Atvar from Harry Turtledove's World War series.The guy's only a villian in that he's opposing humanity.

Atelm

2009-03-17, 02:51 AM

That's weird, I've never heard anything about Charles XII retreating from Russia-- [snip to shorten the quote]

Maybe a poor choice of terms on my part. But after Charles had defeated the Russians at Narva he redeployed most of his forces and concentrated his efforts on defeating the Poles instead where he spent quite a few years campaigning against them.

Following that he went to Russia once more, where he was defeated at Poltava, in Ukraine, in 1809. From what I've read about it all, as he himself retreated to Turkey (where he spent the next years trying to convince the Sultan to join his cause) he at the same time ordered his retreating troops to use scorched earth tactics.

I'm by no means no expert on said war, but I did some extensive reading on it a few years back when I wrote a short article about it at another forum.

Article found here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=167853) Trying to read that now makes my eyes bleed, as I didn't do any sort of spell check on it beforehand. :smallredface:

Dhaos: Hey, stop using magitech!
People: Shut up! We'll do what we want!
Dhaos: ... Fine, I'll make you stop! *begins to attack with monsters, targeting only the ones using magitech and the biggest offender city*
Heroes: We've come to stop you, evil king!
Dhaos: Wait, hold up. You don't have anything to do with magitech. I don't need to fight you.
Heroes: Shut up and fight!
Dhaos: ...Fine, have it your way!
*lots of conflict*
Dhaos: Must...win...for...my...planet's...sake...
Heroes: DIE!

One thing I liked about the original SNES version of Phantasia was that Martel (Mithos' sister in Symphonia, and the spirit within the aptly named Yggdrasil tree) formed the mana seed Dhaos needed in the end, going together with Dhaos' body to Derris-Kharlan. It really seemed like a fitting ending, and made me sympathise with Dhaos even more.

As far as I know, the same scene is in the remakes, but Martel now just forms the mana seed, but does not go herself. A pointless change if you ask me.

Hzurr

2009-03-17, 11:20 AM

Are you talking about Valkyrie with Tom Cruise? I didn't see it, was it historily inaccurate?

Actually, it was very accurate. I'm assuming that it has more to do with motivation. It wasn't a "Hey, Hitler is killing all the Jews we should stop him." It was a "Hey, we're going to lose this war, and Hitler is too crazy to see it. We should take over, and cut our losses now."

The movie, actually, wasn't too bad. I feel that if it was about 15 minutes longer (and spent that 15 minutes on nothing but character development) it would have been great. It's just very frustrating, because you watch the entire movie knowing that the "good guys" are going to lose. It's a bit frustrating, especially given how close they came, and how many minor, minor details prevented them from succeeding.

Tensu

2009-03-17, 04:40 PM

Nobody agrees with me on Myra or Yumil?

...

has anyone else here even played those games?

anyone? please?

mcv

2009-03-19, 08:06 AM

Although, being Warhammer 40k, most factions are villainous to a varying degree.

Particularly the human Imperium. They're scary theocratic fascists who think nothing of sacrificing millions of their own people. The stuff they do would make Stalin and Hitler blush, yet a lot of people identify with them anyway. Doesn't that count as a sympathetic villain?

Querzis

2009-03-19, 08:26 AM

Nobody agrees with me on Myra or Yumil?

...

has anyone else here even played those games?

anyone? please?

Yes I played Ogre Battle 64 but the thing is, I dont see how Yumil is supposed to be a villain. He was brainwashed and had almost no control left on his body from what I understood so well I sympathize with him but hes no villain, hes just a poor boy that was possessed by demons.

charl

2009-03-19, 10:26 AM

Particularly the human Imperium. They're scary theocratic fascists who think nothing of sacrificing millions of their own people. The stuff they do would make Stalin and Hitler blush, yet a lot of people identify with them anyway. Doesn't that count as a sympathetic villain?

Fans only identify with them because in the universe of WH40k, being psychopathic fanatics who consider two billion dead civilians collateral damage makes them the good guys.

Tensu

2009-03-19, 10:38 AM

Yes I played Ogre Battle 64 but the thing is, I dont see how Yumil is supposed to be a villain. He was brainwashed and had almost no control left on his body from what I understood so well I sympathize with him but hes no villain, hes just a poor boy that was possessed by demons.

Well, he did break the seal and whatnot, and if memory serves, seemed at least halfway in his right mind while doing so. that probably didn't help the whole "everyone is getting possessed" situation.

I'd consider being brainwashed to be a villainous trait, since all villains have either been brainwashed or have brainwashed themselves.

I also felt for Bisake, now that I think about it.

Oh! and that one demon who just wanted to be human! you know, save Rhade, Kerikov, and the Racist Dollmaster, I felt a lot of sympathy for every villain in that game. I even felt a little for Sir Baldwin. they really did an exellent job of giving everyone motivation beyond "Blargh! I'm evil!"

Reverent-One

2009-03-19, 11:01 AM

Greed and the chimera's from Full Metal Alchemist. I loved those guys, they needed more screen time.

Fawkes

2009-03-19, 12:59 PM

Just about everyone from Gurren Lagann fits.

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH

Mordar

2009-03-19, 01:13 PM

Also also: Inspector Javert. Most honest guy in the world, just trying to do the right thing no matter what. Unfortunately, his idea of the Right Thing falls somewhere under Lawful Stupid, and he wastes a lot of time and effort hunting down a "criminal" who really, really, really doesn't belong behind bars.

There's my pick, particularly in the musical. I disagree strongly with the Lawful Stupid portion of the commentary, though.

To Javert, pure law and order represents not only the foundation of his life but the absolutely only thing he has ever been able to depend on. The world for Javery works because the law is absolute and it is to be followed. If someone disagrees with a law, it might be argued to change the law, but until it is changed, it is absolute. Valjean broke the law (stealing) for good reason, but that does not mitigate the crime. Valjean skipped out on his parole, and then went on to do very good things for a number of people. That does not remove the stain of the crime. Absolute order is the only way the society can possibly survive, and anyone who mocks that order can not, by definition be a good person. That is idealistic, perhaps fanatic, but not stupid.

Of course, being faced with irrefutable evidence that Valjean *is* a good person utterly destroys Javert's belief system and creates such a conflict within him that "there is no way to go on". Beautiful moments.

Great sympathetic antagonists (perhaps a better term than villain) create the most poignant moments. Great pure villains, on the other hand, create the most cathartic moments of butt-kicking. I love them both! :)

- M

pondshadow

2009-03-19, 02:10 PM

Captain Cold and many other of the Flash villains along with most Marvel villains
Also, almost all of the disney villain's sidekicks I felt didn't deserve any of their bad rap.

Tensu

2009-03-19, 02:52 PM

Greed and the chimera's from Full Metal Alchemist. I loved those guys, they needed more screen time.

Yeah, I'm in agreement there.

Jahkaivah

2009-03-19, 02:56 PM

TakeV

2009-03-19, 03:14 PM

Giygas.

Here is a being so torn between the love of his parents and his duty to his people, that he eventually went insane and allowed his power to run so wild that it destroyed his very being, leaving nothing more but raw power and the incarnation of evil.

That is damn tragic.

Drascin

2009-03-19, 05:06 PM

Did anyone else ever wish **** Dastardly would win a game of Wacky Races? All the guy wanted was a trophy, which the show practically gives away every episode, he wasn't even really cheating when compared to some of the stuff the other racers did. In comparison the guy was just working really hard at thinking outside the box

Yeah. I mean, in a race where people use UZIs and drills and bombs against each other, is it really that bad to blow up the bridge behind you?

Besides, given the amount of times he was going first despite being completely screwed over, I can only assume that either his car was much faster than the others, or he was a better driver. I mean, he got sent to the tail of the race constantly when his cheats backfired, and three minutes later he'd be running around second place again.

Closet_Skeleton

2009-03-19, 05:28 PM

Yeah. I mean, in a race where people use UZIs and drills and bombs against each other, is it really that bad to blow up the bridge behind you?

Well, he's never actually disqualified for doing that is he? The narrator/commentator seems more amused than angry at his antics.

Besides, given the amount of times he was going first despite being completely screwed over, I can only assume that either his car was much faster than the others, or he was a better driver. I mean, he got sent to the tail of the race constantly when his cheats backfired, and three minutes later he'd be running around second place again.

Maybe he's just that amazingly good that he needs to come up with complicated cheating schemes in order to actually challange himself. He knows he can win without cheating so he'd rather try something new.

Tensu

2009-03-19, 05:54 PM

You know, I personally never had any sympathy for light and his **** divinity complex.

2009-03-19, 07:18 PM

Real life example: Santa Anna of Mexico. Probably the only man to be vilified in both US and Mexican historiographies. The man fought the Spanish, French, Texans, Americans, and (numerous) Mexicans. Even though he lost more often than he won he always bounced back in a seemingly unsinkable career that lasted decades. And just what sort of badass loses a leg in battle and then holds a state funeral for it?

Did anyone else ever wish **** Dastardly would win a game of Wacky Races? All the guy wanted was a trophy, which the show practically gives away every episode, he wasn't even really cheating when compared to some of the stuff the other racers did. In comparison the guy was just working really hard at thinking outside the box**** was an idiot. He had, by some distance, the bast car in the race and was probably the best driver to boot. He could have been the next Schumacher if only he'd focused on actually racing rather than some bizarre scheme that would inevitably end badly

ClericPreston

2009-03-20, 01:58 AM

Konrad Kurze gets my vote. He knew right away that his lot in life was to be the Emperor's sanctioned terrorist and commit atrocities in his name. He did his job so well that Big E couldn't handle it and tossed him aside. Where else could he turn to but Chaos?

sun_tzu

2009-03-20, 03:37 AM

Did anyone else ever wish **** Dastardly would win a game of Wacky Races? All the guy wanted was a trophy, which the show practically gives away every episode, he wasn't even really cheating when compared to some of the stuff the other racers did. In comparison the guy was just working really hard at thinking outside the box

Maybe he's just that amazingly good that he needs to come up with complicated cheating schemes in order to actually challange himself. He knows he can win without cheating so he'd rather try something new.

"Ah, you young ones, you know nothing. Me, I knew Dastardly from before. He actually used to win every damn race, you know. That was before they got notorious enough to televise 'em.
Then, 'e got bored. Decided winning was too easy. Started trying to come up with challenges - it was enough to win, he had to win in his own special ways. Ways that were actually hard, ways he could actually fail at.
You remember Dastardly as the loser who never won. I'll forever remember him as the racer who was too good to lose.":smallcool: