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grautry
2009-03-14, 05:02 PM
So, I'm joining a new gaming group - a group that plays high-powered optimized campaigns.

The problem is that so far I played rather casually - and frankly, a long time ago - so I'm not 100% sure how to proceed. I'll be playing the arcane caster.

So far I've read some of optimization guides, wizard handbooks and Batman Wizard thread. Which gives me some ideas on how to proceed. Just for the record - we'll be leveling from 1 to 20(me joining them will be a reset button really) and we have a 32-point buy, core and complete series and anything that can be found on SRD is pretty much allowed.

I decided to go for the Initate of the Sevenfold Veil which leaves me with a problem. Specialization is something that I've never really liked, I just don't want to ban schools - even those which are quite useless such as Evocation. It's just something that doesn't sit with me very well. And most IoTSV builds that I can find are variations on specialization plus Master Abjurer which obviously doesn't fit for that.

So my question is this - what else could I stuff into a generalist wizard build that would be nice?

Fatespinner? Geometer? Which do you think would benefit me the most? The plan of action so far is to go the aforementioned IoTSV and maybe some Archmage levels near the end but beyond that I have no idea. Which is really what I need some help with.

Also some advice on race would be appreciated. Settings specific stuff is banned. So no Sun Elves, Strongheart Halflings or Lesser Planetouched. Also, many of the "best wizard races" are a bit silly, like gnomes, halflings, kobolds even or the like, so if someone can suggest a more serious race that still confers notable benefits and isn't settings-bound that would be really appreciated. LA buyoff is allowed so if a race provides really cool benefits and you can buy them off before lvl 20 then it could be a nice option.

So, could anyone help with those issues?

Gorbash
2009-03-14, 05:16 PM
Just because most IotSV builds use specialized wizards, doesn't mean that you have to. Basic philosophy behind optimizing a wizard is carefully picking spells. And that's all there is too it. Any class that advances spellcasting at every level is a good choice for a generalist wizard, Geometer is just one of easier classes to get into, and you basically get a Boccob's Blessed Book for free. You'll do just fine with just a Wizard/IotSV, and you're never going to die.

Gray Elves are from Monster Manual and they're not setting based, and they give +2 Int among other things.

Tiefling also with LA buyoff, gives bonuses to 2 out of 3 wizard's most important abilities.

arguskos
2009-03-14, 05:22 PM
Let's see... here's my suggestion:

Grey Elf (from the MM1, alternate elf in the elf entry) Wizard 6/Geometer 2/IoSV 7/Fatespinner 4/Geometer +1

Here's why. Geometer is great fun and easy to enter. You get spellglyphs (which are awesome, it's like free metamagic) and Boccob's Blessed Book for nothing. Fatespinner is great times, but the final level is... blah (not worth losing the casting level for). Finally, IoSV is good, doesn't need you to be specialized, and is pretty fun to play around with. Veils are too much fun.

As for the race, I believe that grey elves get an Int bonus and a Con penalty (rather than +Dex/-Con), so that's pretty good. :smallwink:

NINJAEDIT: Damnit ninjas, you be editing my posts now too, not just saying what I said before I did! :smallsigh:

monty
2009-03-14, 05:25 PM
As for the race, I believe that grey elves get an Int bonus and a Con penalty (rather than +Dex/-Con), so that's pretty good. :smallwink:

They're +Int -Str in addition to the base elf stats, so you're basically taking a regular elf (a decent choice to begin with) and trading a dump stat for more Int.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-14, 05:28 PM
Elven Generalist from Races of the Wild is a must for any generalist build. Therefore, most generalists are Gray Elves.

Bayar
2009-03-14, 05:31 PM
This begs for Domain wizard. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard

You basically get some spells added for free when obtaining a new spell level, you get +1 to the caster level of those spells, an extra spell slot for your domain spells...just read it up.

The best part is, this makes you unable to specialise, so you basically are a pimped up version of the generalist.

If your DM is a moron and actually allows the Transmutation domain, pick it and turn his days into living nightmares.

Edit: A fun race, the choker. Cast another spell with the extra standard action this race gets. Pity that it has such bad INT penalties...

Emperor Tippy
2009-03-14, 05:35 PM
If LA buy off is allowed then you are better off with a Tiefling than a Grey Elf. Grey Elf's only become the super wizard race when you have access to races of the wild (for the racial sub levels), Dragon (for Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Int to HP instead of Con), or Fiendish Codex 1 (for Chaos Shuffle).

Now if LA buy off isn't allowed then you prolly should go Grey Elf.

AslanCross
2009-03-14, 05:55 PM
Elven Generalist from Races of the Wild is a must for any generalist build. Therefore, most generalists are Gray Elves.

Agreed on Elf Generalist. For a racial substitution level it's pretty good. You start with more spells, get more spells per level, and can prepare one extra slot of the highest level you can cast. (The other elf wizard sub levels aren't so good though).

Geometer is definitely a good way to find a place to put all those extra spells learned. You don't even have to take so many levels in the class either.

Tippy> Just curious. Why Tiefling?

Myou
2009-03-14, 05:59 PM
If your DM is a moron and actually allows the Transmutation domain, pick it and turn his days into living nightmares.


Heh heh, I invited my player to take that.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-14, 05:59 PM
Tippy> Just curious. Why Tiefling?

Intelligence, Dexterity, Outsider type (alter self into those dwarven statue outsiders from MM 4 is a very obvious thing to do early in the game).

AslanCross
2009-03-14, 09:53 PM
Intelligence, Dexterity, Outsider type (alter self into those dwarven statue outsiders from MM 4 is a very obvious thing to do early in the game).

I definitely forgot about the outsider type.

Keld Denar
2009-03-14, 10:34 PM
(alter self into those dwarven statue outsiders from MM 4)

Dwarven Ancients. Pretty badass form to take.

Um, me? I'd go Gray Elf Generalist Wiz5/DivineOracle2/Loremaster3/Mindbender1/Fatespinner4/Archmage5

This gets you psudo-evasion, UMD as a class skill, either a +1 to hit with rays or +2 fort save, 100' Telepathy (and the ability to take Mindsight from Lords of Madness), 4 points of spin and the forced reroll, and all the badass archmage tricks. Spell Power is good, as is Master of Shaping, Arcane Reach, and Spell Like Ability for Time Stop or Shapechange. Divine Oracle requires Skill Focus: Knowledge(Reglion) which is also a prereq for Loremaster and that lost feat is recovered by LM's bonus feat. That only leaves you with Skill Focus: Spellcraft as a dead feat to get into Archmage, but its definitely worth it.

Also, see if you can use Spell Compendium for your spell list. There are a lot of real gems out of there over the course of all 20 levels.

SoD
2009-03-15, 07:52 AM
I'd just suggest carefully picking your spells, and may I suggest the feat; Collegiate Wizard? You get 6+int mod spells automatically a first level instead of 3+int mod, and then 4 every level instead of 2. And +2 to spellcraft. And if it's major optimisation, take leadership, with the feat which lets you take a dragon as a cohort with CR=your leadership score +3. Give it the same feat, and give it's cohort that feat and then just rinse and repeat ad nauseum.

Or if you don't want to have to make a reflex save vs. thrown MM V (ref. 10+DM's dex mod neg.) or take (1d6+DM's str. mod)bludgeoning/slashing damage, just take leadership, with another generalist wizard. Learn the spells from his spellbook. Make sure he has Collegiate Wizard.


Elven Generalist from Races of the Wild is a must for any generalist build. Therefore, most generalists are Gray Elves.

I'm sorry, are you trying to drag my into a debate on the correct (or in your case, incorrect) way of spelling ey Elf? I might add, no matter where DnD was created, it was created with the English language. :amused:

Demons_eye
2009-03-15, 09:09 AM
I'd just suggest carefully picking your spells, and may I suggest the feat; Collegiate Wizard? You get 6+int mod spells automatically a first level instead of 3+int mod, and then 4 every level instead of 2. And +2 to spellcraft.

Ok whats the down side to this feat? cuz if there is none then I might play a wizard my next game.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-15, 09:25 AM
I'm sorry, are you trying to drag my into a debate on the correct (or in your case, incorrect) way of spelling ey Elf? I might add, no matter where DnD was created, it was created with the English language. :amused:

Yeah, and English people no longer speak English correctly. They speak a bastardized form we call British.

Jack_Simth
2009-03-15, 09:32 AM
A Wizard-20 can be rather optimized by itself. Class features, while handy, are icing on the cake compared to the spell progression.

As to spells...

At low levels, you don't really have much defense you can do, and defense is a losing game anyway. Go offensive.

At 1st and 2nd, you want Grease (Reflex save or be Prone), and either Sleep (will or be Helpless) or Color Spray (Will or suck, depending on hit dice). Mostly, though, at this level you'll want to play defensively (prepare multiple Mage Armor spells), hang around in the back, and plink at baddies with a light crossbow. Daze isn't a bad cantrip to take.

At 3rd and 4th, you want Glitterdust, Web, and Cloud of Bewilderment (Spell Compendium) (note: All three of those are save-or-suck Conjurations. This is one of the reasons Conjuration is one of the better specialties. For defense, consider Alter Self (troglodite, unless you've got a nonstandard type), Mirror Image, and Invisibility. At this point Sleep, Color Spray, and Daze are useless, but Grease is still surprisingly useful.

At 5th and 6th, you want Stinking Cloud (replaces Cloud of Bewilderment), but your offensive loadout is otherwise the same. Fly becomes available here, and is a very useful defense.

At 7th and 8th, look into Enervation and Resilient Sphere.

That should, in theory, take you through a very long time.

Bayar
2009-03-15, 09:38 AM
Intelligence, Dexterity, Outsider type (alter self into those dwarven statue outsiders from MM 4 is a very obvious thing to do early in the game).

You can play an elf and take the Otherworldly feat...but that is setting specific unfortunately...

Flickerdart
2009-03-15, 09:48 AM
Colelgiate Wizard is largely useless because of a little thing called "being able to record scrolls into your spellbook". A Wizard can just buy all the spells he could ever possibly want, and take something useful with that feat instead. Unless Elven Generalist overrides this, I don't see why you need Collegiate Wizard to save you a pittance in GP every level.

Jack_Simth
2009-03-15, 12:53 PM
Colelgiate Wizard is largely useless because of a little thing called "being able to record scrolls into your spellbook". A Wizard can just buy all the spells he could ever possibly want, and take something useful with that feat instead. Unless Elven Generalist overrides this, I don't see why you need Collegiate Wizard to save you a pittance in GP every level.
There's some caveats to that, though.

See, not all DM's provide friendly Wizards that have all spells and will let you copy out of their spellbook. Not all DM's provide friendly crafters that let you purchase a scroll of any spell you like. Many DM's have the treasure tables based on the Core books only, and you can't rely on getting any particular spell from a found scroll. Collegiate Wizard alleviates that - you're getting four "free" spells per level - and your "free" spells are almost always of your choice, not the DM's. Plus it saves on scribing costs and wealth-by-level.

grautry
2009-03-15, 03:51 PM
Thank you for all the replies. :) Now let's start with the replying on my side.


Just because most IotSV builds use specialized wizards, doesn't mean that you have to.

Yes, I know. I just mentioned it because there's little build advice for IoTSV that don't want to be specialists.


Geometer is just one of easier classes to get into, and you basically get a Boccob's Blessed Book for free.

Actually, how does that work?

BBB costs 12.500 gp and has 1000 pages. Meaning that it costs 12.5gp per page. So you'd need to write spells of level 8 and higher to save money using the Book of Geometry, which still makes BBB better.

Am I missing something here?


Grey Elf (from the MM1, alternate elf in the elf entry) Wizard 6/Geometer 2/IoSV 7/Fatespinner 4/Geometer +1

Um, me? I'd go Gray Elf Generalist Wiz5/DivineOracle2/Loremaster3/Mindbender1/Fatespinner4/Archmage5

Also, see if you can use Spell Compendium for your spell list. There are a lot of real gems out of there over the course of all 20 levels.

Much thanks for the complete build and outlining the coolness of both of those. :) It's far easier to read a list of "how does this really work in play" explained in plain language instead of leafing through a list of stats.

And yes, Spell Compendium is in.

Now, a question: Divine Oracle grants the access to Oracle Domain, but ostensibly is also for arcane spellcasters - does that mean you gain a domain with all the benefits thereof like the Domain Wizard variant? So if my GM okayed it I could potentially have two domains? Or is it something pretty much left to DM fiat?


This begs for Domain wizard. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...ntDomainWizard

You basically get some spells added for free when obtaining a new spell level, you get +1 to the caster level of those spells, an extra spell slot for your domain spells...just read it up.

The best part is, this makes you unable to specialise, so you basically are a pimped up version of the generalist.

If your DM is a moron and actually allows the Transmutation domain, pick it and turn his days into living nightmares.

As I said - it's a rather veteran group that I'm joining so even if I were to choose an incredibly overpowered domain, I'm pretty sure that the DM will be able to supply adequate challenges.

Much thanks for the thought though!


If LA buy off is allowed then you are better off with a Tiefling than a Grey Elf. Grey Elf's only become the super wizard race when you have access to races of the wild (for the racial sub levels), Dragon (for Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Int to HP instead of Con), or Fiendish Codex 1 (for Chaos Shuffle).

RotW yes, Dragon no, Fiendish Codex 1 no. My question is this: how valuable is the Outsider type? Is it worth the LA and the loss of elven generalist level at the beginning?


Or if you don't want to have to make a reflex save vs. thrown MM V (ref. 10+DM's dex mod neg.) or take (1d6+DM's str. mod)bludgeoning/slashing damage, just take leadership, with another generalist wizard. Learn the spells from his spellbook. Make sure he has Collegiate Wizard.

Leadership is banned, unfortunately. To quote my DM "I don't wanna DM for 10 characters.".


That should, in theory, take you through a very long time.

Thanks a lot! The Batman Wizard guide was stuffed with a great number of spells and it's hard to choose between twenty awesome spells for each level. Your suggestions are very appreciated.


Colelgiate Wizard is largely useless because of a little thing called "being able to record scrolls into your spellbook". A Wizard can just buy all the spells he could ever possibly want, and take something useful with that feat instead. Unless Elven Generalist overrides this, I don't see why you need Collegiate Wizard to save you a pittance in GP every level.

Hmm... I found an analysis that details that by level 20 - as I said, we're playing the whole level range - you save up(best case) 89500 gp.

So, which would you choose, 89k gp(potentially) or Spellcasting Prodigy(which as far as I'm aware is the best feat for a wizard at 1st level, or am I mistaken here also?). EDIT: Ah, SC is settings specific. So, that's out anyway.

So far, here's the master plan: Gray Elf Domain Wizard(with elven generalist at lvl 1 - or potentially Tiefling, but we don't have MM 4, just 1-3) then either Divine Oracle or Geometer(depends on how domains are treated), then IotSV finishing off with either Fatespinner or Archmage levels. Seems like a solid plan.

Another question: since Collegiate Wizard and Spellcasting Prodigy are two potentially very valuable feats(and I'm sure I could find something else to occupy the third slot), here's my question: what flaws would you take as a wizard? I'm not too sure whether those will be allowed but I want to cover all my bases.

Emperor Tippy
2009-03-15, 04:14 PM
RotW yes, Dragon no, Fiendish Codex 1 no. My question is this: how valuable is the Outsider type? Is it worth the LA and the loss of elven generalist level at the beginning?
It's never worth the LA. The point is that if thsoe 3 books were out AND LA buyoff was allowed then Tiefling would be a better choice than Grey Elf.

Gorbash
2009-03-15, 05:19 PM
Actually, how does that work?

BBB costs 12.500 gp and has 1000 pages. Meaning that it costs 12.5gp per page. So you'd need to write spells of level 8 and higher to save money using the Book of Geometry, which still makes BBB better.

It sure is, but Book of Geometry is free. When you get a Headband of Int +6, then you can start saving gold for BBB.


finishing off with either Fatespinner or Archmage levels

Forget the fatespinner, get Archmage. Prerequisites are harsh, but worth it. +1 Spell Power, Mastery of Shaping, and Spell-Like Ability (taking one of 9th lvl pays of tremendously, say Time Stop) are a must.

From my experience (and I've been playing a Batman Wizard for a year and a half now), the main problem is - the party. There're 6 of us + animal companion, and I can rarely cast area spells since we're usually fighting smaller number of enemies and once the party swarms them anything with a radius bigger then 10' becomes obsolete.

That's where Mastery of Shaping comes in, so you should get it as soon as you can.

SoD
2009-03-15, 05:23 PM
Another question: since Collegiate Wizard and Spellcasting Prodigy are two potentially very valuable feats(and I'm sure I could find something else to occupy the third slot), here's my question: what flaws would you take as a wizard? I'm not too sure whether those will be allowed but I want to cover all my bases.

Take Pathetic X where X=str, wis or cha. Assuming your other abilities are low enough (you need to have all abilities having a total of +8 to take this one).
Otherwise, take feeble (-2 to all str, dex and con based skill checks) and possibly Noncombatant (-2 to all melee rolls) or maybe even Innatentive (-4 to listen and spot). Maybe even Unreactive (-6 to init), although being flat footed can be a real bastard at times.


Yeah, and English people no longer speak English correctly. They speak a bastardized form we call British.


The spoiler below is meant to be tongue in cheek, and moderatly satirical, not serious.
Ooh, low blow. But every language changes over time, it's when you get small offshoots when problems arise. Geogrpahically; Britain, and most of its colonies speak 'British English', or 'English English', or 'Australian English' (which as we know, is the best of the lot of 'em!:smalltongue:). However, one continent, or most thereof (not sure about Mexico), speak 'American English', with different pronounciations (which I have not problem with. We'll put it down to accents, every country has 'em. Except Australia) and different spellings. Why is colour spelt with no 'u'? Why do you say aluminum instead of aluminium? Is it that hard to put in an extra 'i' partway through the word?
Or %wise, how many people speak 'American English' as opposed to 'British English'? Yes, a lot of countries are speaking 'American English'...because you monopolise their textbooks! They sit in their so-called 'English' classes and learn American!

Greg
2009-03-15, 05:40 PM
Forget the fatespinner, get Archmage. Prerequisites are harsh, but worth it. +1 Spell Power, Mastery of Shaping, and Spell-Like Ability (taking one of 9th lvl pays of tremendously, say Time Stop) are a must.
This. Arcane Reach is also worth a look.

The third level elf wizard substitution is pretty nice - doubles your familiar's bonus at the cost of not being able to deal touch spells with the familiar. Geometer is a good choice for a grey elf generalist, as the only cc skills you'll take are in disable device (search is a class level for the substitution levels).

Keld Denar
2009-03-15, 06:05 PM
Adding a domain via Divine Oracle works by giving you the arcane version of all the spells on your list. You still have to scribe them (or take them as spells known for a sorcerer), but they are now on your spell list for the purposes of using spell trigger items and being available to learn. Really, the only gem on that list is Commune, which should be used sparingly due to the xp cost. Its still probably the most complete divination spell in the game. A friend of mine had a really long list of questions he used to ask before he ventured into dangerous areas. Some of them were:

Will there be powerful Evil Outsiders?
Will there be powerful Undead?
Will there be powerful Aberations?
Will there be powerful Constructs?
Will there be powerful Arcane casters?
Will there be powerful Divine casters?
Will there be traps?
Is the area warded against interplanar travel?
Has there been any interplanar travel into or out of the area?

With powerful being relative to player strength (ie CR more than 2 higher than the party, or spells 1 spell level higher than the party has access to). Casting this in the morning while leaving a goodly number of spell slots open before venturing into a particularly dangerous area can help you tailor spells to suit. For example, if you get Constructs, keep a couple of SR: No spells like Freezing Fog around. If the area is warded, watch out when using teleport spells and things like Blink. Etc.

Its expensive xpwise, but xp is a river, so you'll gain it back and being properly prepared is what being a wizard is all about.

Gorbash
2009-03-15, 06:07 PM
This. Arcane Reach is also worth a look.

True. Especially with Otto's Irresistable Dance. Not sure if there are more useful touch spells (and Shivering Touch, but that's just cheesy), but it's worth thinking about it. Although it's kinda pricey... 7th lvl slot. Not sure if it's worth it. I have no problems sacrificing 5th lvl slots, since 5th lvl spells suck mostly (aside from Feeblemind, Cloudkill, Overland Flight and Teleport, basically), but 6th and 7th... It'd be hard to part from them.

ericgrau
2009-03-15, 08:42 PM
As said, it's mostly about spell selection.

Generally you put the following kinds of spells on your list: disabling spells (including walls, AoE debuffs, etc.), non-stat buffs and direct damage. Leftover slots should go to stat buffs, which should be cast outside of combat as they usually aren't worth a round.

Illusion spells are their own animal; you can do very well with an illusion and a plan, or skip them. Single target SoD's are generally outdone by direct damage, especially AoE direct damage, except against unusually high HP solo targets with unusually low saves, no SR and, of course, not immune. So it depends what you plan on fighting. Get lots of low utility spells on scrolls, but not your main prepared spell list. You should also have some high level utility spells in your spell book, but usually not prepared.

Tempest Fennac
2009-03-16, 04:14 AM
I'm sorry I forgot to mention this before, but my homebrew Fenneckin race would probably be slightly better then a Grey Elf due to not having a Con penalty: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104140 . (It could be worth asking if you can use that race.) I also agree with the Domain Wizard idea.

Talic
2009-03-16, 04:28 AM
Archmage:

Mastery of Counterspelling: If you've done your homework, then you know that Sorcerors are better for counterspelling.

Mastery of Shaping: Situational. Most area spells are blasty spells. Area spells are less able to be metamagicked than rays. So, for most area spells, you're already walking the path of failure. Some area save-or-x exist though, such as Glitterdust, Solid Fog, Stinking Cloud, Grease, and the like.

Arcane Reach: Makes touch spells Ranged touch. Allows for chaining buffs, as well as safely applying some of the nastier debuff spells (irresistable dance, for instance)... With enough metacheese, there's even the potential to chain an irresistable dance... Which is delicious no-save, just lose.... to groups.

Spell-Like Ability: Get this. It's that good. Let's see. Give up a level 5 slot and a level 9 slot, and cast a level 9 spell twice per day. Sounds good to me. Plus, there's a feat that turns spell-like abilities into supernatural ones. Now you've got even more flexibility.

Spell Power: Not as good post errata, but still not horrible. Still, there are better choices.

Greg
2009-03-16, 05:03 AM
Mastery of Shaping: Situational. Most area spells are blasty spells. Area spells are less able to be metamagicked than rays. So, for most area spells, you're already walking the path of failure. Some area save-or-x exist though, such as Glitterdust, Solid Fog, Stinking Cloud, Grease, and the like.
The OP wants a very optimised build. Mastery of Shaping allows him to cast antimagic field and exclude himself. I'd say it's worth it.

Talic
2009-03-16, 05:38 AM
Antimagic Field with self excluded is about the WORST thing you can do.

1) Antimagic Fields don't prevent spells from being cast THROUGH them, only INTO them. (they don't even prevent that, only suppress)

Thus, I am wizard A. I am outside an AMF.
I see Target B. It is outside an AMF.

However, an AMF exists between us.

I can cast my spells just fine on Target B. The fact that an AMF exists between us is irrelevant.

When a wizard removes the AMF from his square, he gains almost no benefit from it. This is actually a tactic that many people THINK is good, but ends up being a paper shield. Some Area effect spells will be stopped, melee types that attempt to come close will have a hard time.... But Casters will still rip such a tactic apart, with almost no effort.

The OPTIMIZED tactic is to imbue your familiar with the ability to cast Antimagic Field, and send it in to neutralize casters, while you land orb spells on them (or CC all their friends).

Myou
2009-03-16, 05:39 AM
The OP wants a very optimised build. Mastery of Shaping allows him to cast antimagic field and exclude himself. I'd say it's worth it.

But it emanates from him, so unless there's some sort of precident I'd have thought that he wouldn't be able to do that.

Also, even if he can, it cuts off all line of efect, so as I understand it, all he could do is cast more personal range spells.

Talic
2009-03-16, 05:40 AM
But it emanates from him, so unless there's some sort of precident I'd have thought that he wouldn't be able to do that.

Also, even if he can, it cuts off all line of efect, so as I understand it, all he could do is cast more personal range spells.

It's allowed, and he can do it.

But AMF Does not block Line of Effect. So any of the casters outside can still hit him just fine.

Myou
2009-03-16, 06:39 AM
It's allowed, and he can do it.

But AMF Does not block Line of Effect. So any of the casters outside can still hit him just fine.

Wow, how counterintuitive.

Do you have a source or a page reference so that I can prove it when it comes up in a game? Because it almost certainly will in my current game.

olentu
2009-03-16, 07:17 AM
Wow, how counterintuitive.

Do you have a source or a page reference so that I can prove it when it comes up in a game? Because it almost certainly will in my current game.

While it might be listed somewhere else I have forgotten, where I remember it is in the rules compendium under antimagic. If that book is not available the section on antimagic appears in an excerpt found here

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20071009a

I believe that the excerpt matches the text in the book but I will leave a word by word comparison to others. In any case both my copy of the rules compendium and the excerpt say that an antimagic area doesnít block line of effect.

Myou
2009-03-16, 11:46 AM
I just read the entry in the RC and actually, according to the rules compendium, it seems that you can not cast because you're totally surrounded by the field.

You might interpret the text differently, but that's what it seems to say to me.

olentu
2009-03-16, 11:52 AM
I just read the entry in the RC and actually, according to the rules compendium, it seems that you can not cast because you're totally surrounded by the field.

You might interpret the text differently, but that's what it seems to say to me.

Out of curiosity what part of the text are you getting that from.

Myou
2009-03-16, 12:23 PM
Out of curiosity what part of the text are you getting that from.


If a spellís point of origin is inside an antimagic area, that spell is entirely suppressed.

It depends on how you interpret this line.

But in any case, to me it seems pretty silly to allow an emanation form you to exclude you, and even sillier to allow spells to pass through an antimagic field when there's no way around it so I wouldn't allow it, but you might see it differently.

olentu
2009-03-16, 01:01 PM
It depends on how you interpret this line.

But in any case, to me it seems pretty silly to allow an emanation form you to exclude you, and even sillier to allow spells to pass through an antimagic field when there's no way around it so I wouldn't allow it, but you might see it differently.

I suppose that I do see it differentially for several reasons, one of which is the strangeness when considering where the antimagic fields point of origin is.

Greg
2009-03-16, 01:49 PM
Antimagic Field with self excluded is about the WORST thing you can do.
It's pretty much full protection from melee assault if you use fly. Combine it with greater invisibility, and it can be quite handy for avoiding taking damage.

I take your point though - there's a 7th level spell that casts antimagic field at a distance in MoF.

Nohwl
2009-03-16, 02:20 PM
Antimagic Field with self excluded is about the WORST thing you can do.

1) Antimagic Fields don't prevent spells from being cast THROUGH them, only INTO them. (they don't even prevent that, only suppress)



would selective spell from shining south on an antimagic field allow you to be immune to most spells and still be able to cast?