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Tiki Snakes
2009-03-18, 11:01 PM
So, I'm including (where possible) some definate horror overtones in my running of a certain pre-published 4th ed module. Not directly important to the thread.

What matters is, that I like 4th ed as a system, but it so far lacks any supplements like unearthed arcana suggesting varient rules endorsed by Wizards. It also lacks any homebrewed sanity system, as far as my google-fu can tell me. Further, I really can't seem to find many homebrewed sanity systems at all.

As a further issue, the Unearthed Arcana of 3.5, though it did have a sanity system, did not have on that filled me with joy. I really don't want to tack it on to my shiny new edition.

So does anyone here have any ideas for a homebrewed system? Or does anyone have any existing sanity systems they could recommend tacking on? (Especially if they could link to the system in question.)

Anyone here have much experience with running a game, or playing in one that did much with Sanity and the losing thereof?

RTGoodman
2009-03-18, 11:31 PM
I haven't personally looked through it or played it, but I'd be willing to bet the old (non-d20) Call of Cthulhu RPG has a pretty good sanity system. I mean, I don't know if it's at all compatible with 4E, but you could check there. The d20 CoC has one, too, but I'd be the SRD/3.x Sanity rules are probably just that one with the numbers filed off.

Otherwise, just tell us what exactly you want to accomplish with a 4E sanity system (what the effects would be, a rough outline, etc.), and maybe we can help homebrew something up.

Tiki Snakes
2009-03-18, 11:34 PM
Well, Ideally (Whether homebrewed or otherwise) the system wouldn't just be some kind of inevitable slide to npc status with no other effects, (Like a lot of what I've seen seems to be.)

Something to encourage roleplaying, support the horror-flavour, and maybe keep the players suitably on their toes. If it boils down to just a mental hp stat, and you become and NPC when you run out, that just isn't going to cut it.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-03-18, 11:50 PM
Heroes of Horror has a good one, though its a little spooky for me...

Mando Knight
2009-03-18, 11:52 PM
I hadn't looked closely at the Sanity system before... even the OGL version is rather deep... although the mechanics for some of the mental disorders are for those of fantastic (i.e. of fantasy or to the extreme, not simply "amazing") proportions, including a -4 morale penalty to just about everything for depression...

Implementing such a system would take a lot of work, and goes against the "PCs are badass heroes" theme of 4E, but does fit with the Star Pact Warlock, whose core background fluff explicitly states he draws power from a deal with or studies into Lovecraftian horrors.

I would start by looking at 3.5's Sanity system, and go from there. Basic idea off the top of my head:Each character has Sanity Points, which are analogous to HP. Have a class-based amount of SAN, modified by the character's Wisdom score and increased by level (i.e. the character becomes more resilient to mental damage as he increases in level). Make Healing Surges heal either SAN or HP when spent. A Healing Surge would recover a value equal to 1/4 of the character's SAN. SAN in this case will represent both mental resolve and resilience to insanity, just as HP is an abstract concept of physical toughness and luck. An Inspiring Warlord's Inspiring Word would probably heal more SAN than a Tactical Warlord's... perhaps include a Cha boost to SAN heal for such characters?

Develop a system for aura-based damage (or a free-action Encounter power that activates whenever the players see the foe) from the presence of creatures based on their type and subtype (so that an Immortal Dragon or Fey Undead could cause massive SAN damage, but a Natural humanoid wouldn't), and make powers that target Will and/or cause certain effects (such as Stun, Daze, or Domination) deal amount of SAN damage on a successful hit.

Mental illnesses could be treated like standard diseases (see the DMG), but subject to Wisdom checks rather than Endurance checks. (With lower DCs than diseases, as appropriate for an ability check)

Warlocks would probably have low SAN progressions due to their natural vulnerability to the weird and arcane. (They've already bound themselves to a type of insanity-causing being, so they're vulnerable due to their constant exposure to it, like adding more stress to an already critically stressed beam)

Wizards and Fighters might have a moderate SAN progression. Warlords, Clerics, and Paladins would probably have the most.

Total loss of SAN (i.e. a SAN of 0 or less) would probably cause helplessness and eventually death (due to massive mental trauma). I would treat it the same as 0 or less HP.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-19, 12:42 PM
I'd say steal the Insanity tables from your favorite supplement and then set up a standard Sanity Skill Challenge for particularly frightening situations. Success means you get through OK, failure means you roll on the Insanity Table; some insanities are permanent, while most are temporary.

These would be individual Skill Challenges, BTW. Here are some examples:

Reading Forbidden Texts
Use when a PC is attempting to gain information from books that have been rightly banned for containing information that will drive you Mad!
SKILL - the knowledge skill most appropriate for the information sought. This is used to represent your character's ability at sanely filtering information from a particular subject.
COMPLEXITY - Simple (4/3) texts are usually pamphlets that hint at Great Horrors; the more informative the source, the greater the Complexity.
DIFFICULTY - Use Moderate for most sources, though particularly abstract sources may have a higher Difficulty, but a lower Complexity.
SUCCESS - the PC gets the information they sought without getting any crazier.
FAILURE - the PC gets the information they sought, but becomes slightly unhinged. Roll on the Insanity Table.

Facing Down the Abomination
Plenty of stuff is scary out there, but some things are so mind-bendingly weird that the mere sight of them can drive you Mad!
SKILL - Endurance; this represents a person's ability to face down the difficulties of life and still go on.
COMPLEXITY - Most things should be Simple (4/3) to speed up play and to keep your PCs from going crazy all the time. Eldritch Horrors probably are 6/3 while only the Elder Gods are 8/3 or higher.
DIFFICULTY - Moderate; you can make it easier or harder depending on individual characters (and perhaps Insanity effects)
SUCCESS - You keep your head together. Rock on!
FAILURE - :smalleek: Roll on the Insanity Table

Now, for more targeted attacks you can just make an attack v. Will with a hit resulting in a roll on the Insanity Table. For your players' sake, I'd add in a new status effect - Unhinged - that has no effect except for making the character roll on the Insanity Table if hit with another Insanity Attack.

Thoughts?

Mando Knight
2009-03-19, 01:25 PM
Facing Down the Abomination
Plenty of stuff is scary out there, but some things are so mind-bendingly weird that the mere sight of them can drive you Mad!
SKILL - Endurance; this represents a person's ability to face down the difficulties of life and still go on.
COMPLEXITY - Most things should be Simple (4/3) to speed up play and to keep your PCs from going crazy all the time. Eldritch Horrors probably are 6/3 while only the Elder Gods are 8/3 or higher.
DIFFICULTY - Moderate; you can make it easier or harder depending on individual characters (and perhaps Insanity effects)
SUCCESS - You keep your head together. Rock on!
FAILURE - :smalleek: Roll on the Insanity Table

For Elder Gods, you should roll twice and add. :smallamused:

LurkerInPlayground
2009-03-19, 02:22 PM
I challenge you to present a reason why a sanity system is necessary. Things like the Call of Cthulhu sanity system is kind of idiosyncratic beast. It's a sacred tradition, no doubt, but from a fluff standpoint, immediate psychosis on the sight of monsters does not necessarily follow from a cosmic Lovecraftian view of horror.

Lovecraft seemed like a new kind of horror that followed from modernism eroding and taking a piss on old Victorian sensibilities. I'm not sure the sanity system is the best and only interpretation of the concept.

Also, I imagine there are, dare I say it, more intuitive ways to handle these things. You have a Will defense in the game, make use of it. Stat up "mental diseases" that players can catch, using the same mechanic. Create a bunch of attacks vs. Will that debuff the players in negative ways and fluff it up as "insanity."

hamishspence
2009-03-19, 02:26 PM
3.5 obyriths were an interesting approach to insanity-causing creatures in D&D. Maybe 4th ed will draw from that in later books?

Tiki Snakes
2009-03-19, 02:53 PM
I challenge you to present a reason why a sanity system is necessary. Things like the Call of Cthulhu sanity system is kind of idiosyncratic beast. It's a sacred tradition, no doubt, but from a fluff standpoint, immediate psychosis on the sight of monsters does not necessarily follow from a cosmic Lovecraftian view of horror.

Lovecraft seemed like a new kind of horror that followed from modernism eroding and taking a piss on old Victorian sensibilities. I'm not sure the sanity system is the best and only interpretation of the concept.

Also, I imagine there are, dare I say it, more intuitive ways to handle these things. You have a Will defense in the game, make use of it. Stat up "mental diseases" that players can catch, using the same mechanic. Create a bunch of attacks vs. Will that debuff the players in negative ways and fluff it up as "insanity."

I like the idea of using a system that revolves around 'mental diseases' making attacks vs will, and so on. I feel that would make a lot of sense, in game. It does imply some homebrewing of course, but it's not a bad start.

Diseases do seem an interesting mechanic in general, I can see it working if I can write up enough appropriate 'quirks' and so on.

On the other hand, From what i can see, Heroes of Horror does have some potentially usefull bits. I shall have to see if my local gaming shop has a copy second hand, or just skim read it.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-19, 02:59 PM
I like the idea of using a system that revolves around 'mental diseases' making attacks vs will, and so on. I feel that would make a lot of sense, in game. It does imply some homebrewing of course, but it's not a bad start.

Diseases do seem an interesting mechanic in general, I can see it working if I can write up enough appropriate 'quirks' and so on.

On the other hand, From what i can see, Heroes of Horror does have some potentially usefull bits. I shall have to see if my local gaming shop has a copy second hand, or just skim read it.

Yeah, Attack vs. Will or get a Disease is probably the easiest; plus you can tailor the insanity levels to different levels of stimuli.

CthulhuM
2009-03-19, 06:28 PM
Yeah, you could probably adapt the taint system from heroes of horror. In theory that can result in people becoming NPCs, but it generally doesn't, and has various odd mental/physical effects along the way (that DO actually tend to happen).

VirOath
2009-03-19, 11:31 PM
Well, for the 4e version of D&D, I'd use a good home brewed system. My person favorite actually, but it's not from D&D at all, it's from a competitor.

Use the standard saves (IE straight die roll plus save modifiers) and use RIFTS/HEROES rules. Modify the roll based upon level, what they have faced and such.

So, if it is mildly horrifying and traumatic, give it like a 5 or so. Something that should have them tearing their eyes out whilte singing Boston should rank up higher at a 15 or more.

Success, congrats! You may have some mild RP side effects ("Your eyes lose focus and you gain a headache as your mind tries to comprehend what shouldn't be able to exist."), the WH40K way ^_^ (Even better, you can have some of these slowly add up, giving them a minor insanity.)

Failure: Roll on the table, or DM picks one that fits (Or just picks a table)

Most of the list is Roleplaying defects and adds a good element to a character.

It is also good to remember that these should be rare, not handed out like candy. Some do apply negatives to gameplay, most roll modifiers can be taken straight as it is a D20 game, but a few other things might have to be stricken or modified.

And remember that everything is relative. What might be a 15 on this scale at level 5 may not even merit a roll at level 25.


Another way is making it like a stat check (IE Wis+Cha+half of your level+Save modifier) This is a way that will scale with character levels. It makes things more set in numbers, gives some classes an advantage and makes things a little less relative. But it also reflects how some people would be more mentally fragile than others.



But if you are going for Lovecraft, then remember it isn't just about losing your mind. Many many things are scary to an extreme but wouldn't classify to cause supernatural insanity.

To cover that, give things a Horror Factor (This should scale, W+C+1/2L like above fits for a check, or straight die roll saves). It's a number that must be saved against when something does something more terrifying than normal (IE: The entire graveyard you had tracked the murderer down to just rose from the dead, make a Horror Check.).

Success: Congrats! You're fine. You may be a bit scared, but you've kept a calm head. And you get a bonus against any other HF checks forced by that creature (You stood in the face of the dragon's roar once, a second one isn't going to phase you)

Failure: This is fun. You are scared, shocked or mezzed in some fashion. You are still together enough not to lose your mind or do something stupid, keep your wits about you! But you take a penalty to init and rolls for one round and can be forced to make further HF checks by that creature.


Meh, just what I enjoy. It's more RP and less stats than most systems of these types I've come across. I think it could easily work.


And those two books offer a great number of things to base these mental diseases on. I would prefer to use one of the above after an attack VS will as to not make a damaging attack a powerful permanent drawback.