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MagFlare
2006-06-29, 05:47 PM
I'm not a huge Final Fantasy fan, but I am a huge 8-Bit Theater fan, so...

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http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/62/Red_Mage.gif

"Many are content to merely live by the rules. To go through the entirety of their lives without understanding them. Not those such as we. We have begun to uncover the systems, the machinery that works our world. For centuries we have catalogued and researched and cross-indexed the rules in order to seek a greater understanding of them so that we too may become as gods. So that we may transcend from mere playthings into the players." - an unnamed Red Mage (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=011010)

The Red Mages are a cabal of philosopher-wizards who prize their versatility and seek to discover the hidden "rules" by which the universe operates. Jacks of all trades but masters of none, their abilities are a boon to any party - even though their obsession with mysterious items like "experience points" and "hit dice" may confuse their teammates.

Alignment: Any, but their drive for self-perfection above all else means they're often True Neutral.
Hit Die: d6.
BAB: .
Saves: Poor Fort, good Ref and Will.
Class Skills: The Red Mage’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at First Level: (4 + Int mod) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int mod.
Proficiencies: A Red Mage is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip. Red Mages are proficient with light armor, but not shields. A Red Mage can cast spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance.
Spells: A Red Mage casts arcane spells which are drawn from both the wizard/sorcerer and cleric spell lists. The Red Mage learns and prepares spells as a wizard does, using his Character Sheet (see below) instead of a spellbook. Spells per day are as a bard. The Red Mage’s Int score is used to determine bonus spells per day, save DCs, and whether he can learn a new spell.

Class Features:

Character Sheet: At first level, the Red Mage receives a Character Sheet which details his talents. If he loses the Character Sheet, he will be unable to learn or regain spells, use many of his class abilities, or level up as a Red Mage again until he creates a new one (which costs 100 x his current Red Mage level in XP and takes an hour); if the Character Sheet is destroyed, he must make a Will save (DC 15) or gain a negative level until he can create a new one. Whenever the character gains a new level in the Red Mage class, he must spend ten minutes updating his Character Sheet.

Mulligan: Starting at first level, the Red Mage may reroll a number of dice per day equal to his Cha bonus. (For example: a fifth-level Red Mage with a Cha score of 16 casts a fireball and rolls a 1, a 1, a 2, a 3, and a 6 for damage. The Red Mage would be able to reroll the three lowest dice; alternately, he could reroll the two lowest dice and save one Mulligan die for an important attack roll later.) Whether or not the new result is higher than the original roll, the Red Mage must keep it unless he’s willing to spend another Mulligan die to reroll it again.

Knowledge (decorative cake frosting): (http://www.giantitp.com/GuestStrips.html) Starting at first level, the Red Mage may begin putting skill points into Knowledge (decorative cake frosting). This knowledge skill is treated as a class skill for Red Mages but unavailable to members of any other class. While this skill is of somewhat limited use on its own, the Red Mage can, once per day as a free action, add all ranks spent in that skill to any single skill check. This ability increases to twice per day at level 5, three times per day at level 10, and so on. The Red Mage must have an intact and current Character Sheet in order to use this ability.

Stat Swap: Starting at fourth level and every four levels thereafter, the Red Mage may swap any two of his ability scores once per day as a free action. This lasts for a number of rounds equal to his Red Mage levels/2 + his (pre-swap) Cha bonus. At the end of the duration the ability scores revert to normal. The Red Mage must have an intact and current Character Sheet in order to use this ability.

Min/Max: At sixth level and every six levels thereafter, the Red Mage may begin to paradoxically improve himself by gaining flaws at level-up. The Red Mage may select a trait from this list. (http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm) The Red Mage may not choose the same trait more than once. The Red Mage must have an intact and current Character Sheet in order to make use of traits; if the Character Sheet is lost or destroyed, the Red Mage loses the effects of the traits until he once again has a Character Sheet in his possession.

Frost Affinity: At seventh level, the Red Mage casts spells with the [cold] descriptor as though he were two levels higher.

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What do you think? Sorry about the formatting - didn't want to invest the effort to make a nice chart for it if it doesn't look like the idea deserves that kind of treatment.

Dant
2006-06-29, 05:52 PM
Hmm, not bad. But I seem to recall there being a Red Mage class posted by one of the guys over at 8-Bit that was even more versatile. The way the skills works is pretty good though.

MagFlare
2006-06-29, 05:58 PM
Hmm, not bad. But I seem to recall there being a Red Mage class posted by one of the guys over at 8-Bit that was even more versatile. The way the skills works is pretty good though.

Interesting. I don't suppose you've got a link?

Dant
2006-06-29, 06:54 PM
Urgh, now that's gonna bug me all day. I'd swear I've seen it, but I can't recall where and I never bookmarked it. I know I've seen it around somewhere though. I shall have to go looking now.

Dhavaer
2006-06-29, 06:57 PM
It was in one of the Twinkin' Out columns. There was Fighter, Black Mage and Black Belt classes as well.

Baerdog7
2006-06-29, 07:00 PM
I shall now proceed to enlighten you all with the knowledge of the 8BT prestige classes.

So far we've got Fighter (http://www.nuklearpower.com/redmage19.php), Black Mage (http://www.nuklearpower.com/redmage20.php), Red Mage (http://www.nuklearpower.com/redmage22.php).

These are all that I was able to find. I seem to remember possibly seeing a Black Belt or maybe even Thief class, but I can't remember for sure. Not that these are all presitge classes. Not base classes like the Red Mage posted in the OP.

-Baerdog7

SpiderBrigade
2006-06-29, 07:37 PM
Yeah, I like the OPs take on the class better than "Mystic Theurge, plus stat swap." Much more flavorful, especially the Min/Max ability. And somehow, I think it's pretty well balanced, although truly Red Mage should be horribly broken.

I would think about using the PrC's "familiar-like" character sheet option, though...or otherwise adjust that aspect of the class. Save-or-die is pretty harsh, but 100 GP/level is too cheap.

MagFlare
2006-06-29, 09:58 PM
I shall now proceed to enlighten you all with the knowledge of the 8BT prestige classes.
Thanks. Seems a little suspicious, actually, that we both named a near-identical class feature "Stat Swap" - all I can figure is I read this article before and had forgotten about it.


I would think about using the PrC's "familiar-like" character sheet option, though...or otherwise adjust that aspect of the class. Save-or-die is pretty harsh, but 100 GP/level is too cheap.
Oops. I left out the "in XP" bit there. The Red Mage has to pay for a new Character Sheet in XP. Not too pricey, I think, but enough to foster the image that the Character Sheet is an extension of the Red Mage. I also lowered the penalty for a destroyed Character Sheet per your suggestion.

Thanks for the input!

geez3r
2006-06-29, 10:03 PM
Oh sweet mother of god, I must play this class.

Magnus_Samma
2006-06-30, 12:15 AM
I've always wanted to come up with a class that did what a red mage does in FF- basically, everything, though at a reduced level Duskblade got the mechanics mostly right, but not the flavor, so I'm still searching. This take on the character of Red Mage, though, is priceless, and I love the way you've incorporated various references to the comics in it. That's just plain awesome.

chaiyo
2006-07-01, 04:30 PM
You have captured the flavor of the Red Mage of 8BT lore in a base class perhaps just as well as the prestige class on-site. The mechanics aren't too bad either.

That said, I have a few nitpicks.

First off, why is Reflex a good save? If there is a reason for it I have missed, I would probably hit my head and go, "that makes sense." But for now, I find it odd.

(Before I continue, I would like to say that d6 HD and 3/4 Base Attack Bonus are perfect fits.)

numero 2: Spell lists. Although the Red Mages are able to cast spells from both lists, it would be a better idea to write a whole new spell list and start bumping the better spells up a level. Even the Red Mages know that versatility has some price. For example, no spells would be bumped up until third level, where perhaps fireball is bumped to fourth because a Red Mage would be more proficient at lightning and ice spells than fire. Also, maybe cleric spells like speak with dead and water walk are bumped up because Red Mages don't really use those anyway. My last part of this rant is that spells that overlap, but on different spell levels (like Animate Dead (Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 4) and Locate Object (Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 2) use the higher one. Also, a Red Mage can't take two spells from different lists that do the same thing practically, like Wish and Miracle, although I personally wouldn't allow them to have these until Epic, to fit the 'masters of none' impression that they still require a damage/healing machine in the party. End lengthy spell rant.

Finally, Since I am done with the problems I found, the nit-picking congratulatory stage:

1. Knowledge: Decorative Cake Frosting. While including this is work of relevance and comedic art, it also serves as an interesting skill-related ability. While I did have to read it twice before I could remove it from my list of minor problems, after I understood it fully it went straight here.

2. Mulligan. Truly a representation of the fact that both Red Mages are conscious of the rules around them and that, as was said somewhere on Nuklear Power, Red Mage is more of a bard than anything else.

3. Min/Max. An ingenious connection between the Red Mage and an existing function.

[/lengthy post from the guy who thought this thread had PEACH in the subject]

bluish_wolf
2006-07-01, 05:02 PM
Isn't the Red Mage class a bard, in D&D?

-Has access to both cleric and wizard spell lists.
-Has a limited access to armor and weapons.
-Can't cast powerful spells (7th level or higher)

Cybren
2006-07-01, 05:03 PM
Red mages don't sing. And the addition of spells from the divine lists is rather recent

Sophistemon
2006-07-01, 06:43 PM
Ergh, this is embarrassing. I don't know what 3/4 Base Attack Bonus means.

Cybren
2006-07-01, 06:45 PM
BAB like cleric, 3/4 level

Sophistemon
2006-07-01, 06:53 PM
Oh, okay. Thanks. Now I feel stupid...

Fax Celestis
2006-07-01, 06:54 PM
In essence, it means that the class gains 3/4ths of a point of BAB every level (which rolls out to 3 points every four levels, as you can see with the cleric).

Sophistemon
2006-07-01, 08:32 PM
Right, I see that now. Thanks.

MagFlare
2006-07-02, 07:20 AM
Thanks for all the positive comments, everybody.


First off, why is Reflex a good save? If there is a reason for it I have missed, I would probably hit my head and go, "that makes sense." But for now, I find it odd.

Two reasons. (Well, one reason, and one ad-hoc rationalization.)

Firstly, the Red Mage is a tweaked bard, the bard has two good saves, and it seemed to me that Ref and Will was more class-appropriate than Fort and Will.

Secondly, Red Mage mentions during the werewolf fight that he has a good dodge pool.


(Before I continue, I would like to say that d6 HD and 3/4 Base Attack Bonus are perfect fits.)

Cool. Again, it's a side effect of designing the class as a modified bard - you'll note that the class skill lists and weapon proficiencies are identical, too.


numero 2: Spell lists. Although the Red Mages are able to cast spells from both lists, it would be a better idea to write a whole new spell list and start bumping the better spells up a level. Even the Red Mages know that versatility has some price.

I'd considered writing up a Red Mage spell list, but I'm not up on Final Fantasy lore enough to know what'd be appropriate, plus I sort of like the idea that the Red Mage can learn virtually any spell (of sixth level or lower, of course). If you're interested, please feel free to post a spell list.

As for the price of versatility, I agree - that's why I killed the bonus spells. The Red Mage class, as it currently stands, is unable to cast even first-level spells until level 3. I'm not entirely happy with that solution, though.


[/lengthy post from the guy who thought this thread had PEACH in the subject]

Thanks for all the input. And I thought it was unnecessary to add "PEACH" to the title - I mean, if you don't want criticism, then you should post to your C: drive rather than an Internet forum. :)