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Myou
2009-03-21, 11:55 AM
Just something simple I threw together to use as a future NPC, but I quite like it so I thought I'd see what you guys think about it. Perhaps I could make it available to players?


The Furious Evoker

The Furious Evoker is a spellcaster who channels anger into casting spells, their strong emotions increasing the power of their magic, but leaving them unable to access more subtle spells.


Requirements:

To qualify to become a Furious Evoker a character must meet the following criteria;

Skills: Spellcraft 8 ranks.
Feats: Spell Focus (Evocation), Greater Spell Focus (Evocation).
Spells: The ability to spontaneously cast at least 2 1st level and 2 2nd level arcane Evocation spells.
Special: The character must be a spontaneous arcane spellcaster.



Class Features

Hit Dice: d4

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Refl Save|Will Save|Class Special Abilities

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Furious Dedication

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Slot Burn +2d6, Bonus Spell Slots

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Metaevocation

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Slot Burn +4d6, Bonus Spell Slots

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Elemental Control

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Slot Burn +6d6, Bonus Spell Slots

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Area Control

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|Slot Burn +8d6, Bonus Spell Slots

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Elemental Admixture

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Slot Burn +10d6, Bonus Spell Slots[/table]

The Furious Evokerís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int).


Skill points at each level: 2 + Intelligence modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Furious Evokers do not gain proficiency with any type of armor or shields.

Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new Furious Evoker level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known) as if he had also gained a level of the spontaneous spellcasting class with which he entered the Furious Evoker class.

Furious Dedication (Ex): At level 1 Furious Evokers lose the ability to cast spells of any school but Evocation (this also excludes Universal spells), as if such spells were no longer on their class list for the class with which they entered the Furious Evoker class. In return they gain a +2 bonus to caster level checks to overcome spell resistance and a +1 bonus to the DCs of all of their Evocation spells. This bonus to spell DCs increases to +2 at level 3, and increases by a further 1 at levels 5, 7 and 9, to a total of +5.

Sudden Slot Burn (Su): At level 2 Furious Evokers gain the ability, when casting a spell that deals HP damage, to add 2d6 bonus damage to the spell being cast by sacrificing a 1st level spell slot. The sudden surge of power takes foes by surprise, nullifying the effects of Evasion and similar abilities, or, if the target has Improved Evasion or a similar ability, reducing it to Evasion. If the spell allows for multiple targets each suffers this extra damage, but no target may suffer it twice. At level 4 they also gain the option to sacrifice a level 2 spell slot to increase the damage to 2d6. At levels 6, 8 and 10 the maximum slot level again increases by 1 and the maximum bonus damage by +2d6. Bonus damage is of the same type as the spell's normal damage and is applied after metamagic enhancements and other effects.

Bonus Spell Slots: At levels 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 the Furious Evoker gains 2 bonus spell slots of the highest level usable by his Slot Burn ability. (2 bonus level 3 slots at level 6 for example.)

Metaevocation (Su): At level 3 Furious Evokers gain the ability to apply metamagic feats to their evocation spells without increasing the casting time. Furthermore, they may choose 1 metamagic feat they know and the cost of applying that feat to their Evocation spells decreases by 1 (to a minimum of +0). At level 7 they may select a second metamagic feat to apply this ability to. If they slect the same feat again, the cost decreases by a futher 1, but still cannot drop below 0.

Elemental Control (Su): At level 5 Furious Evokers gain the ability to freely change the elements used in their spells. They can only alter a spell with the acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic descriptor. The caster decides whether to alter the spellís energy type and chooses the new energy type when he begins casting. The spell's descriptor changes to the type of energy used.

Area Control (Su): At level 7 Furious Evokers gain the ability to freely change the shape that their area spells take. They can only alter spells that use one of the following shapes: burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread. They can freely re-arrange the squares that are affected by such spells into any pattern or shape that fits within the spell's area x 2. For example, a 15ft cone could be shaped into any arrangement that fits within a 30ft cone. Or a fireball could be spread over an 80ft radius, only affecting squares contaning enemies. The spell cannot affect a number of squares great than the number that the spell would affect if this ability were not applied.

Elemental Admixture (Su): At level 9 Furious Evokers gain the ability to freely add extra damage to their elementa spells. They can only apply this ability to a spell with the acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic descriptor. When casting such a spell the caster may choose to add an extra elemental damage to the spell equal to the spell's existing damage. The extra damage is of any element they choose. For example, they could add 4d6 Sonic damage to a spell that deals 4d6 fire damage. They can also choose to add damage of the same type that the spell normally deals. The spell's descriptor changes to include both types of energy used. A spell enhanced with this ability requires a spell slot +4 levels higher. Upon gaining this ability the Furious Evoker may choose to retrain his Metaevocation ability to reduce the cost of Elemental Admixture instead of the previously chosen feat of feats (despite this not being a metamagic feat).

Ferrin
2009-03-21, 12:19 PM
Even for the benefits granted by the class it seems to weak, you'd still die by most classes with anything like evasion for example and you give up to much for the damage increase for your spells. It also lacks the bit that says it doesn't add the damage to each missile of magic missile. Obvious, I know, but still useful to put that bit in.

Another issue with the class is that you can't be a warmage and enter this class, you should change the prequisites slightly to, for example; "Requires you to be able to spontaneously cast at least two 1st level spells and two 2nd level spells of the evocation school." And just so you know, you can't have only cantrips of the evocation school.

The Metaevocation ability is a bit to weak to my tastes, it's similiar to the incantatrix's ability, with the advantage that it can reduce it to 0, but disadvantage that it only works for 1 metamagic feat. Also clarify whether you want to let people to be able to choose the same metamagic feat twice.

Only evocation spells is kind of... deadly. You need some versatility in it, and need to put it in a flavorful way.

Myou
2009-03-21, 12:51 PM
Even for the benefits granted by the class it seems to weak, you'd still die by most classes with anything like evasion for example and you give up to much for the damage increase for your spells. It also lacks the bit that says it doesn't add the damage to each missile of magic missile. Obvious, I know, but still useful to put that bit in.

Another issue with the class is that you can't be a warmage and enter this class, you should change the prequisites slightly to, for example; "Requires you to be able to spontaneously cast at least two 1st level spells and two 2nd level spells of the evocation school." And just so you know, you can't have only cantrips of the evocation school.

The Metaevocation ability is a bit to weak to my tastes, it's similiar to the incantatrix's ability, with the advantage that it can reduce it to 0, but disadvantage that it only works for 1 metamagic feat. Also clarify whether you want to let people to be able to choose the same metamagic feat twice.

Only evocation spells is kind of... deadly. You need some versatility in it, and need to put it in a flavorful way.

Hmm, I hadn't thought it could be misconstrued that way, but now I see that you're right, thanks. I added a line on that.
Do you think increasing the damage to, perhaps, 3d6/6d6/9d9/12d6/15d6 and specifying that evasion and similar effects cannot avoid or reduce this damge would help?

Durrr, I totally forgot about cantrips. xD
And that it a good idea anyway, thanks! I altered it to just say that their class can no longer cast non-evocatons, not that they can't know any.

Ah, yes, thanks, that needed clarification.

I know it gives up a lot of power, but I just like the theme of a character who only attacks, ad Evocation suits that. Can you suggest other ways to compensate?


Thanks for the comments, very helpful! ^^

Ferrin
2009-03-21, 01:01 PM
Hmm, I hadn't thought it could be misconstrued that way, but now I see that you're right, thanks. I added a line on that.
Do you think increasing the damage to, perhaps, 3d6/6d6/9d9/12d6/15d6 and specifying that evasion and similar effects cannot avoid or reduce this damge would help?

Durrr, I totally forgot about cantrips. xD
And that it a good idea anyway, thanks! I altered it to just say that their class can no longer cast non-evocatons, not that they can't know any.

Ah, yes, thanks, that needed clarification.

I know it gives up a lot of power, but I just like the theme of a character who only attacks, ad Evocation suits that. Can you suggest other ways to compensate?


Thanks for the comments, very helpful! ^^

That's not what I meant with the evasion part. I meant that you should have a class ability that can at least partially negate the ability in a flavorful way, something to catch them unawares or the like.

The extra damage is not what I think is needed, more like extra spell slots, seeing as you're going to be the most useless thing imagineable when you run out of them, and with your class abilities you run out of them REALLY fast.

Only being able to cast evocation spells is a big hit, you might want to consider giving the class some form of protection, like allowing them to wear at least light armor, it's the least you can do considering that they really do lose a ton of survivability.

Hmm, seeing as you're practicaly a siege weapon I'd consider giving it some effects similiar to that of the Recaster(Races of Eberron) and Archmage to compensate the obvious lack of customizability, and to add a ton of fun to your widened fireball hitting at 4 places at once with sonic damage.

Shades of Gray
2009-03-21, 01:06 PM
Give an ability that ignores evasion and makes improved evasion turn into regular evasion.

Ferrin
2009-03-21, 01:12 PM
Give an ability that ignores evasion and makes improved evasion turn into regular evasion.

So simple, yet so effective. I'm going to have to agree with this.

Baron Corm
2009-03-21, 01:17 PM
Or homebrew some Evocation spells that target Fortitude or Will :smallbiggrin:.

Myou
2009-03-21, 01:44 PM
That's not what I meant with the evasion part. I meant that you should have a class ability that can at least partially negate the ability in a flavorful way, something to catch them unawares or the like.

The extra damage is not what I think is needed, more like extra spell slots, seeing as you're going to be the most useless thing imagineable when you run out of them, and with your class abilities you run out of them REALLY fast.

Only being able to cast evocation spells is a big hit, you might want to consider giving the class some form of protection, like allowing them to wear at least light armor, it's the least you can do considering that they really do lose a ton of survivability.

Hmm, seeing as you're practicaly a siege weapon I'd consider giving it some effects similiar to that of the Recaster(Races of Eberron) and Archmage to compensate the obvious lack of customizability, and to add a ton of fun to your widened fireball hitting at 4 places at once with sonic damage.

That's a good idea, I added that to Slot Burn.

Ahhh, good point. I added extra spell slots to the benefits of Furious Dedication, perhaps that will help?

The reason they get no armour is that they're putting everything they have into offence, almost to the point of recklessness, so armour proficiency doesn't really suit them, I'd prefer to improve their offensive powers.

I did consider something like the shaping and elemental abilities, but I wasn't sure if it needed it. I'll go ahead and add them though. :3
Feedback on those would be much appreciated. ^^


What do you think, has that helped the class?

Myou
2009-03-21, 01:46 PM
So simple, yet so effective. I'm going to have to agree with this.


Give an ability that ignores evasion and makes improved evasion turn into regular evasion.

Done. :3

And, by they way, excellent avatar!


Or homebrew some Evocation spells that target Fortitude or Will :smallbiggrin:.

Ew, too much work for me, I'll let my players handle that. xD

Ferrin
2009-03-21, 02:35 PM
I like it so far, but further explain the extra spell slots, it's a bit vague. Also, the Area Control ability as it stands says; "Your lightning bolt is now a cone" Or hell, a burst! Please, strap on some radius steps and ranges that go along with it, for example a 120-ft line to 20-ft burst, or 60-ft cone for example. And reversed obviously. This is just an example ofcourse.

Also, please consider that you need to be clear in both the text as well as the table.

Myou
2009-03-21, 03:11 PM
I like it so far, but further explain the extra spell slots, it's a bit vague. Also, the Area Control ability as it stands says; "Your lightning bolt is now a cone" Or hell, a burst! Please, strap on some radius steps and ranges that go along with it, for example a 120-ft line to 20-ft burst, or 60-ft cone for example. And reversed obviously. This is just an example ofcourse.

Also, please consider that you need to be clear in both the text as well as the table.

The slots are daily, sorry if that was unclear.

Have those changes clarified/improved things? :3

Ferrin
2009-03-21, 03:58 PM
Would be nice if it would be in the table, but allright. Ehm, are you sure you want to give 4 extra spell slots? To. Each. Spell. Level? I'm not sure but, that sounds a tad much. :smalleek:

Myou
2009-03-21, 04:39 PM
Would be nice if it would be in the table, but allright. Ehm, are you sure you want to give 4 extra spell slots? To. Each. Spell. Level? I'm not sure but, that sounds a tad much. :smalleek:

If what was in the table? o.O

Well, it seemed a fair trade for nothing but evocation spells, especially if they spend most of thier low level slots of Sudden Slot Burn.

What do others think? Is it too much?

pyrefiend
2009-03-21, 05:37 PM
Elemental Admixture looks to be too powerful. If I'm reading it correctly, it essentially doubles all damage you deal with any elemental evocation spell. Especially because you can add on the more obscure energy types, like sonic, this seems too powerful, even for 9th level.

Myou
2009-03-21, 05:50 PM
Elemental Admixture looks to be too powerful. If I'm reading it correctly, it essentially doubles all damage you deal with any elemental evocation spell. Especially because you can add on the more obscure energy types, like sonic, this seems too powerful, even for 9th level.

It's actually available as a feat, I think it's in Complete Arcane.

Kylarra
2009-03-21, 05:54 PM
It's actually available as a feat, I think it's in Complete Arcane.The feat is metamagic +4 though. It's also limited to admixing only the element that you've already burned an elemental sub feat on.

Myou
2009-03-21, 06:12 PM
The feat is metamagic +4 though. It's also limited to admixing only the element that you've already burned an elemental sub feat on.

Oh, good point!

What if I make it require a spell slot 2 levels higher?

Ferrin
2009-03-21, 06:20 PM
No need, instead just add this little bit to Elemental Control; "This ability counts as Energy Substitution[All] for meeting prequisites." At least that's what I would do.

Let's you get Energy Admixture without wasting a feat, and you could change the 9th level to another -level to a metamagic, or all metamagic feats for that matter, or a bonus metamagic feat.

Mando Knight
2009-03-21, 06:28 PM
Or homebrew some Evocation spells that target Fortitude or Will :smallbiggrin:.

Or possibly...
Mind-Fire Evocation (Su): When a Furious Evoker casts an Evocation spell that allows a Reflex save, (X times/day) she can change the granted save to a Will save.
Or...
Wrathful Evocation (Su): As Mind-Fire Evocation (above), except the save can be made into a Fortitude save instead.

Kylarra
2009-03-21, 06:30 PM
Oh, good point!

What if I make it require a spell slot 2 levels higher?
You're already effectively giving them 10 feats (E-sub fire/elec/acid/sonic/cold + admix of the same), so I'd just copy the feat description and put it at +4 metamagic.

Stycotl
2009-03-24, 12:00 PM
this is interesting, and i am curious to see how it turns out. so far i agree with the majority of the criticism it has received, and think that it is being refined fairly well. i might have some comments on it when i am not distracted by the class i am supposed to be paying attention to.

Pramxnim
2009-03-24, 11:13 PM
I think the save DC increase is seriously overkill. +10 DC over 9 levels to all spells that this guy casts (all of his spells are evocation anyways) is... too much. A 0th level spell cast by this guy normally has a save DC higher than a 9th level spell, not counting bonuses from a high casting attribute. I suggest lowering the DC increase to +1 at each increment and make the increases at lvls 1, 4, 7 and 10. This way it sounds more plausible.

I understand you are trying to make Evokers viable for play, but keep in mind that other classes need to shine too!


EDIT: The furious Evoker can still cast Universal spells, can't they? Since those don't belong to any schools.

EDIT 2: The bonus damage from Sudden Slot burn is the same type of energy damage as the spell dealing HP damage, is it not? It would be a nice way to boost the damage from Magic Missile then (5d4+5 + 8d6 Force damage, no save, autohit)

Myou
2009-03-25, 07:09 AM
I decided to take ot the extra spell slots, to better fit the theme of caster who attacks without heed to strategy or caution - they burn up their spell slots really quickly, but they burn brighter.


No need, instead just add this little bit to Elemental Control; "This ability counts as Energy Substitution[All] for meeting prequisites." At least that's what I would do.

Let's you get Energy Admixture without wasting a feat, and you could change the 9th level to another -level to a metamagic, or all metamagic feats for that matter, or a bonus metamagic feat.

Well, I could do, but I quite like the current arrangement. :3


Or possibly...
Mind-Fire Evocation (Su): When a Furious Evoker casts an Evocation spell that allows a Reflex save, (X times/day) she can change the granted save to a Will save.
Or...
Wrathful Evocation (Su): As Mind-Fire Evocation (above), except the save can be made into a Fortitude save instead.

Those are a good idea, but I'd prefer to limit them to reflex saves, rather than let them target weak saves with each spell.


You're already effectively giving them 10 feats (E-sub fire/elec/acid/sonic/cold + admix of the same), so I'd just copy the feat description and put it at +4 metamagic.

Energy Substitution (All) and Energy Admixture (All) really aren't the equivalent of ten feats, more like 4, especially when they're likely to know spells of suitable elements to begin with.

I have it at +2 because it's as if they have Metaevocation both times in it.

But if it really is too powerful, perhaps they should just have to choose one element? I think that works quite nicely.


this is interesting, and i am curious to see how it turns out. so far i agree with the majority of the criticism it has received, and think that it is being refined fairly well. i might have some comments on it when i am not distracted by the class i am supposed to be paying attention to.

Why thank you. xD


I think the save DC increase is seriously overkill. +10 DC over 9 levels to all spells that this guy casts (all of his spells are evocation anyways) is... too much. A 0th level spell cast by this guy normally has a save DC higher than a 9th level spell, not counting bonuses from a high casting attribute. I suggest lowering the DC increase to +1 at each increment and make the increases at lvls 1, 4, 7 and 10. This way it sounds more plausible.

I understand you are trying to make Evokers viable for play, but keep in mind that other classes need to shine too!


EDIT: The furious Evoker can still cast Universal spells, can't they? Since those don't belong to any schools.

EDIT 2: The bonus damage from Sudden Slot burn is the same type of energy damage as the spell dealing HP damage, is it not? It would be a nice way to boost the damage from Magic Missile then (5d4+5 + 8d6 Force damage, no save, autohit)

The thing is that failing an evocation save just means you take damage, failing a SoD means you lose. Also, evocation spells are too easy to negate/dodge.

I'm not a big fan of evokers, but I just like the idea of a sorcerer going crazy and blowing all his spells to do some really serious damage. He still loses out to batman wizards though. xD

No, he can only cast Evocations. There aren't any Universal spells he'd have to have though.

Yes, it is. ^^

Heliomance
2009-03-25, 07:19 AM
Energy Substitution (All) and Energy Admixture (All) really aren't the equivalent of ten feats, more like 4, especially when they're likely to know spells of suitable elements to begin with.


They really are the equivalent of ten feats. To whit:

Energy Substitution [Acid]
Energy Substitution [Cold]
Energy Substitution [Electricity]
Energy Substitution [Fire]
Energy Substitution [Sonic]

Energy Admixture [Acid]
Energy Admixture [Cold]
Energy Admixture [Electricity]
Energy Admixture [Fire]
Energy Admixture [Sonic]

Myou
2009-03-25, 10:43 AM
They really are the equivalent of ten feats. To whit:

Energy Substitution [Acid]
Energy Substitution [Cold]
Energy Substitution [Electricity]
Energy Substitution [Fire]
Energy Substitution [Sonic]

Energy Admixture [Acid]
Energy Admixture [Cold]
Energy Admixture [Electricity]
Energy Admixture [Fire]
Energy Admixture [Sonic]

Errrr, yes, I am aware of that, I'm not that stupid, but in usefulness they aren't.
Taking all ten of those is a huge waste of feats. Beyond about 2 of each the return is next to nothing.

Kylarra
2009-03-25, 10:47 AM
I'll have to make the argument that it's not actually 10 feats you're giving them, but rather 20, the 10 mentioned in the post above, plus (Easy Metamagic (Energy Admixture (type)) X5) X2

Now, granted most people wouldn't ever take all 5 variants of E-sub/admix, but please don't say that it's only 4 feats. ;) At least give it 3/5ths credit for acid/sonic/cold, putting it at a "minimum" of 12 or 8 if we take your logic as probably acid/sonic.

I mean if you wanted to, you could go ahead and force them to have e-sub(all) and perhaps a single admixture of their choice at the +2, but I can tell you ahead of time that it's just going to be sonic so while it may be "limiting" the choices, it's really a null choice as a generality.

I'd really feel best about it if it was just the normal +4, or if you wanted to keep your metaevocation bonus to it, you can allow them to retrain to e-admix at level 10.

Myou
2009-03-25, 10:54 AM
I'll have to make the argument that it's not actually 10 feats you're giving them, but rather 20, the 10 mentioned in the post above, plus (Easy Metamagic (Energy Admixture (type)) X5) X2

Now, granted most people wouldn't ever take all 5 variants of E-sub/admix, but please don't say that it's only 4 feats. ;) At least give it 3/5ths credit for acid/sonic/cold, putting it at a "minimum" of 12 or 8 if we take your logic as probably acid/sonic.

I mean if you wanted to, you could go ahead and force them to have e-sub(all) and perhaps a single admixture of their choice at the +2, but I can tell you ahead of time that it's just going to be sonic so while it may be "limiting" the choices, it's really a null choice as a generality.

I'd really feel best about it if it was just the normal +4, or if you wanted to keep your metaevocation bonus to it, you can allow them to retrain to e-admix at level 10.

Hmmm, you make a very good case! :3
You also made me giggle with the feat-equivalence maths. xD

What I'll do is make the ability itself eligible to be chosen for metaevocation and make it +4 otherwise.

Pramxnim
2009-03-25, 11:38 AM
There are a few Evocation spells that debuff quite well and that target more than just Reflex saves.

One example is the spell Great Thunderclap (Spell Compendium, page 107) that target all saves. As a third level spell, by the time you get it, you'll have a base DC of 17 + Cha at ECL 6 (soonest). This will just increase further as you level. I know you feel that Evocation spells are really gimped because they're easily negated but Reflex saves are the lowest at higher levels, and you already have an ability that negate Evasion anyways. I am still of the opinion that the DC increase should only be +1 per interval, or +2 over 3 intervals.

I'd keep the extra spell slots, but instead of making them per level, make it so that at each interval, the caster gets ONE extra slot that he can put in any of his spell levels that he could cast. He would end up with 5 extra slots spread out over the levels instead of a net increase of 45 spells per day. I think that would work better.

Myou
2009-03-28, 06:59 AM
There are a few Evocation spells that debuff quite well and that target more than just Reflex saves.

One example is the spell Great Thunderclap (Spell Compendium, page 107) that target all saves. As a third level spell, by the time you get it, you'll have a base DC of 17 + Cha at ECL 6 (soonest). This will just increase further as you level. I know you feel that Evocation spells are really gimped because they're easily negated but Reflex saves are the lowest at higher levels, and you already have an ability that negate Evasion anyways. I am still of the opinion that the DC increase should only be +1 per interval, or +2 over 3 intervals.

I'd keep the extra spell slots, but instead of making them per level, make it so that at each interval, the caster gets ONE extra slot that he can put in any of his spell levels that he could cast. He would end up with 5 extra slots spread out over the levels instead of a net increase of 45 spells per day. I think that would work better.

Hmmm, yes, you're right, +10 is too high, I'll change that. :3

The extra slots are a nice idea, but it's a little messy for me.

Pramxnim
2009-03-28, 04:00 PM
How is it messy?

Complete Mage has many PrCs that give you bonus spell slots, and they all specialise.

Lyric Thaumaturge (p67): Grants 1 additional slot (at level 1,4,7,10, like the Furious Evoker) for each level (in total) for the Bard [a total of 6 spell slots gained]. Additionally, it grants 6 spells known in total (but there really aren't many Evocation spells, so you can skip this).

Master Specialist (p70): Doesn't improved spell slots but rather spells known. However I think it deserves mention because it is the primary specialist PrC.

Nightmare Spinner (p74): Grants 1 extra spell slot for illusion spells per day at each spell level (In effect, 9 spells). This is actually stronger than what I suggested, but purely because someone going into Nightmare Spinner can also cast other spells and needs the extra slot to prepare his mainstay school. You could still argue that the Furious Evoker requires extra slots to burn (and he certainly does) and give him ONE additional spell slot per spell level (You can split it off like the Lyric Thaumaturge does to prevent 1 lvl dips (but seriously, who would only dip in here for 1 level? I like this class because it kills 1 lvl dippers like no other. It's an achievement for a PrC when one is motivated to take the class to the end)

Myou
2009-03-28, 04:32 PM
How is it messy?

Complete Mage has many PrCs that give you bonus spell slots, and they all specialise.

Lyric Thaumaturge (p67): Grants 1 additional slot (at level 1,4,7,10, like the Furious Evoker) for each level (in total) for the Bard [a total of 6 spell slots gained]. Additionally, it grants 6 spells known in total (but there really aren't many Evocation spells, so you can skip this).

Master Specialist (p70): Doesn't improved spell slots but rather spells known. However I think it deserves mention because it is the primary specialist PrC.

Nightmare Spinner (p74): Grants 1 extra spell slot for illusion spells per day at each spell level (In effect, 9 spells). This is actually stronger than what I suggested, but purely because someone going into Nightmare Spinner can also cast other spells and needs the extra slot to prepare his mainstay school. You could still argue that the Furious Evoker requires extra slots to burn (and he certainly does) and give him ONE additional spell slot per spell level (You can split it off like the Lyric Thaumaturge does to prevent 1 lvl dips (but seriously, who would only dip in here for 1 level? I like this class because it kills 1 lvl dippers like no other. It's an achievement for a PrC when one is motivated to take the class to the end)

Hmmm, that does look more workable, and your suggestions are good! :3
I'm thinking about each level giving 1 bonus slot, from 0th to 9th, what do you think?

And thank you for the compliment! =D
I don't like classes being used soley as a dip, so that's great.

Pramxnim
2009-03-28, 04:48 PM
I think it should be split off like the Lyric Thaumaturge. Usually PrCs don't bother with 0 lvl spells, since those don't come into use much anyways (and they can't be used to fuel Slot Burn).

So, I'd suggest something like:

At 1st level, the Furious Evoker gains one additional spell slot for his 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells (since those are the ones that he can cast as he enters the class).

At 4th level, the Furious Evoker gains one additional spell slot for his 4th and 5th level spells

At 7st level, the Furious Evoker gains one additional spell slot for his 6th and 7th level spells

At 10th level, the Furious Evoker gains one additional spell slot for his 8th and 9th level spells (though he won't be able to cast them just yet if he went Sorc 5/FE 10)

These additional spell slots don't grant the FE the ability to cast spells higher than a Sorc of his class level (Only levels that grant Arcane Spellcasting count) could normally cast (even if by some obscure means the player secures the ability to know 9th level spells by that point, so as to prevent munchkin shenanigans).

Myou
2009-03-28, 04:57 PM
I think it should be split off like the Lyric Thaumaturge. Usually PrCs don't bother with 0 lvl spells, since those don't come into use much anyways (and they can't be used to fuel Slot Burn).

So, I'd suggest something like:

At 1st level, the Furious Evoker gains one additional spell slot for his 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells (since those are the ones that he can cast as he enters the class).

At 4th level, the Furious Evoker gains one additional spell slot for his 4th and 5th level spells

At 7st level, the Furious Evoker gains one additional spell slot for his 6th and 7th level spells

At 10th level, the Furious Evoker gains one additional spell slot for his 8th and 9th level spells (though he won't be able to cast them just yet if he went Sorc 5/FE 10)

These additional spell slots don't grant the FE the ability to cast spells higher than a Sorc of his class level (Only levels that grant Arcane Spellcasting count) could normally cast (even if by some obscure means the player secures the ability to know 9th level spells by that point, so as to prevent munchkin shenanigans).

Hmm, I like it but the progression is slightly irregular.

How about if the slots come at like this;
Level 2: 1st & 2nd
Level 4: 3rd & 4th
Level 6: 5th & 6th
Level 8: 7th & 8th
Level 10: 9th & 10th (if epic rules are used)

Pramxnim
2009-03-28, 05:28 PM
You're right. I was trying to fit it with the save DC progression, but somehow got it mixed up with the Lyric Thaumaturge's one.

I think the even level progression fits just fine with the slot burn increases. However, looking back at the slot burn increases, I think the Furious Evoker should only really get spell slot increases up to 5th level, and then make it so he has a net gain of 2 slots per level.

It would look something like:

1st level: Gain extra 1st level slot
2nd level: Gain Slot Burn +2d6, extra 1st level slot
3rd level: Gain extra 2nd level slot
4th level: Gain Slot Burn +2d6, extra 2nd level slot
etc.

The wording on the ability (does not have to be the same as Furious Dedication. In fact, it should be different) could be:

"At every level gained in this class, the Furious Evoker gains one extra spell slot of a spell level equal to 1/2 his FE class level (rounded up)"

Then you put in some examples. Maybe make a sample build (a very simple one will suffice, using the Sorcerer).

I think this way will fit more in line with the Furious Evoker's main "trick", the Slot Burn ability.

What do you think?

Myou
2009-03-28, 05:43 PM
You're right. I was trying to fit it with the save DC progression, but somehow got it mixed up with the Lyric Thaumaturge's one.

I think the even level progression fits just fine with the slot burn increases. However, looking back at the slot burn increases, I think the Furious Evoker should only really get spell slot increases up to 5th level, and then make it so he has a net gain of 2 slots per level.

It would look something like:

1st level: Gain extra 1st level slot
2nd level: Gain Slot Burn +2d6, extra 1st level slot
3rd level: Gain extra 2nd level slot
4th level: Gain Slot Burn +2d6, extra 2nd level slot
etc.

The wording on the ability (does not have to be the same as Furious Dedication. In fact, it should be different) could be:

"At every level gained in this class, the Furious Evoker gains one extra spell slot of a spell level equal to 1/2 his FE class level (rounded up)"

Then you put in some examples. Maybe make a sample build (a very simple one will suffice, using the Sorcerer).

I think this way will fit more in line with the Furious Evoker's main "trick", the Slot Burn ability.

What do you think?

Ohhh, I like it a lot! :D

The one thing I'd change is making the extra slots come only on the Slot Burn levels, purely because it's neater and atches up more precisely, rather than it being every level. Also, he gets a lot of nice things on odd levels already, but only one ability on even levels.

So;

+2 Spell Slots: At levels 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 the Furious Evoker gains 2 bonus spell slots of the highest level usable by his Slot Burn ability. (2 bonus level 3 slots at level 6 for example.)

Pramxnim
2009-03-28, 06:01 PM
Actually I thought of giving them 2 extra spell slots at each even level too, but then it would be a bit too much at one time.

In any case, I'm glad you like the idea. It's your homebrew creation, so feel free to implement any suggestions as you like :D

EDIT: The wording of Furious Dedication and the example given do not match. 1/2 Class level (Rounded Down) + 1 would give:

+1 DC at 1st level
+2 DC at 2nd and 3rd
+3 DC at 4th and 5th
+4 DC at 6th and 7th
+5 DC at 8th and 9th
+6 DC at 10th

Myou
2009-03-29, 04:21 AM
Actually I thought of giving them 2 extra spell slots at each even level too, but then it would be a bit too much at one time.

In any case, I'm glad you like the idea. It's your homebrew creation, so feel free to implement any suggestions as you like :D

EDIT: The wording of Furious Dedication and the example given do not match. 1/2 Class level (Rounded Down) + 1 would give:

+1 DC at 1st level
+2 DC at 2nd and 3rd
+3 DC at 4th and 5th
+4 DC at 6th and 7th
+5 DC at 8th and 9th
+6 DC at 10th

Why thank you, you've helped a lot! :D

Ahhh, yes, that wording isn't very clear, it's meant to be half of (level+1), I'll change that.

ericgrau
2009-03-29, 03:59 PM
Evocation only has a few no SR spells - like wall of force - and none of the spells that deal damage are no SR. You don't really get any buffs, for example. So it would make sense to give the PrC a flat (non-increasing) +2 to caster level checks to break SR at level 1; the same time when you give up all other schools. That gives the class an advantage over other spells affected by SR (like SoD's), but it helps make up for others that aren't like haste. With that and other boosts it seems like a fair trade-off IMO, and makes flavor sense too I think.

I'd be against a scaling spell penetration because your caster level is already increasing. I was gonna say the same about spell save DCs, but with all that metamagic you need the boost just to keep up. So that's fine.

The extra spell slots and bonus damage OTOH do not scale like this and you need to give more at higher levels to match the higher damage of spells. So that's fine the way you have it. Though you might want to specify that the bonus damage applies after metamagic feats, otherwise I could see low level spells becoming a lot more powerful than higher level ones (instead of on par or a little stronger like they currently are with metamagic). Special abilities like elemental control only apply once, so that's also fine the way you have it (in terms of scaling issues at least).

Myou
2009-03-30, 03:52 AM
Evocation only has a few no SR spells - like wall of force - and none of the spells that deal damage are no SR. You don't really get any buffs, for example. So it would make sense to give the PrC a flat (non-increasing) +2 to caster level checks to break SR at level 1; the same time when you give up all other schools. That gives the class an advantage over other spells affected by SR (like SoD's), but it helps make up for others that aren't like haste. With that and other boosts it seems like a fair trade-off IMO, and makes flavor sense too I think.

I'd be against a scaling spell penetration because your caster level is already increasing. I was gonna say the same about spell save DCs, but with all that metamagic you need the boost just to keep up. So that's fine.

The extra spell slots and bonus damage OTOH do not scale like this and you need to give more at higher levels to match the higher damage of spells. So that's fine the way you have it. Though you might want to specify that the bonus damage applies after metamagic feats, otherwise I could see low level spells becoming a lot more powerful than higher level ones (instead of on par or a little stronger like they currently are with metamagic). Special abilities like elemental control only apply once, so that's also fine the way you have it (in terms of scaling issues at least).

Ahh, that's a good idea, I like that, thanks. :3

And good save, I'll need to specify that the bonus damage is after metamagic, otherwise things could get silly.