Incarnum Question

[ShadowFighter15]

What's the general opinion on Magic of Incarnum? It seems pretty interesting fluff-wise, but I don't know about the rules (still a newbie at D&D). I've looked through a few game advertisement threads on Myth Weavers and haven't found a single character with an Incarnum-using class. Is there something wrong with those classes mechanically, or are they just not up to scratch?

[Pie Guy]

Well, Incarnum is a sort of obscure and hard to learn supplement; took me three reads to get that you have to assign a chakra to each soulmeld. The characters are only moderatly powerful, and mythweavers doesn't even have the extra sheets neccesary to keep track of all the crap you need for incarnum. It's a very interesting system, though, and I'm using it right now. You just have to be ready for a lot of book keeping.

[Eldariel]

It's of about the right power level for your average game (ToB/Psionics/low-end casters/Rogues/etc.), it allows you to realize great many concepts that are otherwise outside the scope of the game (casters that actually append themselves with magic of various kinds) and gives melee characters another way to be efficient.

The only drawback about the book is that it's "weird" - that is, stuff like that doesn't really exist in fantasy as we know it so nobody is going to come into it with a mindset that it "belongs" - things like Tome of Magic, Tome of Battle, Psionics and the Core-stuff are all easy to introduce because of prior exposure (ToM is just different types of magic, but they're all spellcasters, ToB is a bunch different types of non-spellcasting warriors, Psions are effectively mind mages, Core includes Gods' power (or divine magic where the character is merely a medium), natural power, arcane power (or manipulation of a variety of magical energies) and simple pointy sticks), but Magic of Incarnum lacks such a touchstone so it may be hard to get used to, but it's all pretty awesome stuff (except *shudder* the Soulborn).

[Chronos]

The biggest problem with incarnum is that it doesn't scale well. A first-level Incarnate is about at the same power level as a 2nd or 3rd level character of most other classes, and likewise a 2nd-level Totemist is probably the most powerful 2nd-level class, but a 20th level incarnum-user (at least, a good-aligned one-- Evil gets all the best toys) is at about the same power level as maybe a 10th level member of most classes. And the primary way that incarnum classes do gain power (increased essentia capacity) is based on character level, not class level. So the incarnate classes are excellent for brief dips, but there's not really any reason to take one straight through.

[Eldariel]

Well, there're some great class features on the higher levels along with the free Soulmelds so the higher levels aren't wasted or anything. Also, they get the unique Chakra Binds and such.

[ShadowFighter15]

I had a feeling that it would take a lot more book-keeping then normal (it's why I mostly skipped reading the individual soulmelds). I got the chakra system on the first read (though with a bit of thought for a while); I just see it as having each chakra correspond with a magic item slot (like your arms, your feet, etc) and using a soulmeld in conjunction with them or bind the meld to that chakra and override the magic item currently worn in that slot (so binding a meld to your legs/feet chakra (can't remember what it's called) would render the Boots of Striding your wearing inert until the bind is released).

Though I'm sure I've read the basic concept of binding magic into your body rather than as a spell somewhere before.

[AmberVael]

I wouldn't really say it has a lot of book keeping. There's a bit of a learning curve, but after you grasp the system it is far easier than dealing with, say, preparing a high level wizard/cleric/archivist's/whoevers spells every day.

Power wise, Incarnum is decent as others have stated. Totemist is the best of the classes, as it has a definite function that it can excel at (natural attack power!)

Personally I find the fluff to be terrible, but the actual mechanics are quite intriguing and can be put to use in a number of interesting ways other than 'making magic items out of raw soul energy.'

Anyways, I use incarnum on occasion. It can give a unique feel to characters, and for high level characters it can be a useful thing to invest feats into.

[HeavySleeper]

It's a magic system that is mechanically different from anything else released for 3.5, which is one of the reasons it takes a while to get used to. You have to learn almost everything from the ground up, which is a bit of a pain. But it's also one of my favorite supplements. Great fluff, neat concept, and decent mechanical power (except for the Soulborn). Not to the level of most full casters, but Incarnates can keep up well, and a well built Totemist can deal a lot of damage.

EDIT: Okay, not all the fluff is great. Too much blue. I tend to ignore the blue.

[Sinfire Titan]

The biggest problem with incarnum is that it doesn't scale well. A first-level Incarnate is about at the same power level as a 2nd or 3rd level character of most other classes, and likewise a 2nd-level Totemist is probably the most powerful 2nd-level class, but a 20th level incarnum-user (at least, a good-aligned one-- Evil gets all the best toys) is at about the same power level as maybe a 10th level member of most classes. And the primary way that incarnum classes do gain power (increased essentia capacity) is based on character level, not class level. So the incarnate classes are excellent for brief dips, but there's not really any reason to take one straight through.

Wrong! A LN 20th level Incarnate is on-par with an adequately buffed Fighter. The damage is lower, but the defenses are better.

Good-aligned Incarnates are better off using UMD than focusing on Combat.

Evil Incarnates typically use the Dissolving Spittle soulmeld, but can do melee as good as any other.

CN Incarnates are the only ones I haven't figured out. Most people go Dissolving Spittle+Psionic Shot+Sneak Attack (through Assassin's Stance+Indigo Strike) to keep on par with Optimized Warlocks.



A 20th level Totemist puts the Incarnate to shame in the damage department, but lacks the versatility (in terms of being able to shift from Combat Guy to Skill Monkey within one encounter, as the Incarnate has more Skill Booster soulmelds than the Totemist does).

The Soulborn is the weakest class in the book. I'd put them on par with the CW Samurai, but the fact is the Soulborn can be optimized to be combat-viable. In the end, they are about equal to a Core-only Paladin. They don't get many tricks at all.


As for the Scaling, the Incarnate is the only class in the game that gets a +5 weapon by level 8. Both the Incarnate and Totemist can get SR of 41 with ease, and can lower that SR to 9 as a Swift action. Damage-wise, an Optimized Totemist is on par with a 10th level Chain Tripper at level 4, but slows down at that point (and misses a lot!). The Incarnate has the highest attack bonus this side of Full Casters and Infinite Loops (+61/+56, and can get a 3rd attack by dipping 2 levels into Warblade/Crusader!). The easiest way to boost their attacks is to take levels in a PrC like Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion (the latter works wonders with the Incarnate Weapon).

[Chronos]

A 20th level Totemist puts the Incarnate to shame in the damage department, but lacks the versatility (in terms of being able to shift from Combat Guy to Skill Monkey within one encounter, as the Incarnate has more Skill Booster soulmelds than the Totemist does).I would actually argue that the totemist doesn't have any skill-boosting soulmelds. All of their skill boosts are competence bonuses, and hence don't stack with the cheap magic items that anyone interested in skills should have anyway. Incarnates, by contrast, get mostly insight bonuses, which are significantly harder to come by from other sources and hence significantly more valuable.

As for getting a +5 weapon (or eventually +6 or +7), this is true, but all you can get is the enhancement bonuses, not any of the other weapon modifiers. By my figuring, an Incarnate has to be 12th level to get a +5 weapon (3 base essentia capacity from character level, +1 from Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat, +1 from the 3rd-level class feature), and by that point, a standard fighter can afford a +3 or +4-equivalent weapon (say, +1 freezing flaming shock) and get a party member to cast Greater Magic Weapon on it, for a +5 or +6-equivalent total.