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Gerbah
2009-03-31, 08:34 PM
For the life of me, I can't find this list, I've searched and searched, though I know I saw one before. I'm looking for what is considered to be the "Tiers" (how powerful each is considered to be) for each base class (not limited to PHB), if anyone knows where to find it. I remember it listing the obvious classes as "Top Tier", and then having the Samurai and NPC Classes as "Bottom Tier", as well as having several other tiers for the rest of the classes.

I'm considering running a campaign sometime and would like to have this as a reference for which classes I should tweak to be more in-line with the rest (I just really enjoy balancing things). If anyone can point me in the right direction, I would really appreciate it.

Studoku
2009-03-31, 08:36 PM
I saw the thread quite recently. I'll try and dig it up.

EDIT: Found it: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0


The Tier System

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer.

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Examples: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Varient)

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the rest of the party is weak in that situation and the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

Examples: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, Paladin

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

Examples: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner

And then there's the Truenamer, which is just broken (as in, the class was improperly made and doesn't function appropriately).

Now, obviously these rankings only apply when mechanical abilities are being used... in a more social oriented game where talking is the main way of solving things (without using diplomacy checks), any character can shine. However, when the mechanical abilities of the classes in question are being used, it's a bad idea to have parties with more than two tiers of difference.

It is interesting to note the disparity between the core classes... one of the reasons core has so many problems. If two players want to play a nature oriented shapeshifter and a general sword weilder, you're stuck with two very different tiered guys in the party (Fighter and Druid). Outside of core, it's possible to do it while staying on close Tiers... Wild Shape Varient Ranger and Warblade, for example.

Gerbah
2009-03-31, 08:47 PM
Yes, that is exactly the one I saw before Stu42, thank you so much! Though if anyone knows of any other ones, feel free to throw them out here, I'd like to get more opinions as well.

ericgrau
2009-03-31, 09:19 PM
I never gave that one much credence since it puts the bard 2 tiers above the fighter. It seem to rate characters more on versatility than anything. And that's the thing; all the classes are apples and oranges and grapes and what not and you can't really compare them. e.g., no matter how high you make a barbarian's attack bonus and damage people will think the wizard is better because the barbarian just plain can't do what a wizard can. Most real games I've seen and heard of don't have serious balance issues; those are exaggerated. So just play in a mixed party and have fun.

NeoVid
2009-03-31, 09:50 PM
The only ones I can think of off the top of my head that have reached a general consensus about their tier are Erudite (Tier 1) and Totemist (Tier 3).

Also, remember that the creator of the list considers Tier 3 the best and 1 the worst, since the list was created as way to help prevent balance issues wrecking people's fun.

ColdSepp
2009-03-31, 10:01 PM
I never gave that one much credence since it puts the bard 2 tiers above the fighter. It seem to rate characters more on versatility than anything. And that's the thing; all the classes are apples and oranges and grapes and what not and you can't really compare them. e.g., no matter how high you make a barbarian's attack bonus and damage people will think the wizard is better because the barbarian just plain can't do what a wizard can. Most real games I've seen and heard of don't have serious balance issues; those are exaggerated. So just play in a mixed party and have fun.

The list, I believe, states it is based on how a class can do in any situation. So, while a Fighter might shine if he has room to Charge, or if he can Trip, or if he is a Dungeocrasher, he relies on those circumstances being available. The Bard is assumed to be able to do his thing anytime.

Frosty
2009-03-31, 10:09 PM
There is a simple test. Devise 3 or 4 situations that the character has to prepare for. Assign points for how well each situation is handled by the character. highest total number of points wins and is probably made of the better class.

The Fighter might get a 10 in one situation but 2s in the other 3. A bard might get 6 in all of the situations. Whereas a wizard might get 10 10 10 9

mangashogun
2009-04-01, 12:07 PM
Rather than worry about tiers, we are usually just concerned with roles (e.g. healing, arcane, melee, etc.). When it comes to worrying about these roles rather than tiers, a "tier" 4 or 5 character may be able to shine because they focus on the one thing that needs to get done.

The Glyphstone
2009-04-01, 12:34 PM
That's what makes the high-tier classes better though, because they can function in multiple roles - though "divine/arcane/melee' isn't a role distinction so much as a description of how they perform their role.

If a melee class is either there to deal damage in melee or (supposedly) defend their allies, the Wizard can make him superfluous by using battlefield control or summons. Most arcanists can't heal, but their aformentioned battlefield control can minimize or prevent the need for healing. Wizards can obviously deal damage, and magic can bypass many of the needs for a skillmonkey. Or for a more focused example, a Cleric can fill both the "healer" role and the 'melee" role, doing both better than any non-cleric class.

Comparatively, a Tier 4 or 5 class is only good at one specific, narrow role, and if the DM does not present them with that specific circumstance that they need to shine, they're basically useless. A trip-fighter is good if you fight lots of humanoids, but gets significantly weaker against Large/Huge+ enemies, multilegged enemies, flying enemies, incorporeal enemies...a large portion of the MMs.

Kaiyanwang
2009-04-02, 03:29 AM
A trip-fighter is good if you fight lots of humanoids, but gets significantly weaker against Large/Huge+ enemies, multilegged enemies, flying enemies, incorporeal enemies...a large portion of the MMs.

Respectfully...Things like this always seemed strange to me. You say.. trip fighter... how many feats must invest in tripping a trip fighter? And how many of them are not worthy in other situations different from tripping? An you can trip even a flying enemy, if you have bolas... You CANNOT trip a mountain giant, but I hope you didn't spent 18 feats only in trip...

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-02, 03:47 AM
Respectfully...Things like this always seemed strange to me. You say.. trip fighter... how many feats must invest in tripping a trip fighter? And how many of them are not worthy in other situations different from tripping? An you can trip even a flying enemy, if you have bolas... You CANNOT trip a mountain giant, but I hope you didn't spent 18 feats only in trip...

Well let's see:

Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Knockdown
Willing Deformity
Deformity (Tall)
Other type of deformation feats for more reach.
Maybe a good tactical tripping feat somewhere.

So that's 8 feats so far.

Maybe add some feats that actually give you bonuses to tripping, so that you can trip a mountain giant.

Killer Angel
2009-04-02, 03:47 AM
I saw the thread quite recently. I'll try and dig it up.



In general terms it's OK, but I think that something is wrong.
C'mon, Rogue a tier 4, capable of doing ONE thing quite well?
He has good class options, has ton of skill points (always useful), and he can easily use all the magic he needs (in addiction to his own abilities) thanks to UMD. Without beeing restricted to class spell lists.
Not a tier 2, but definitely a 3.

Kris Strife
2009-04-02, 03:50 AM
For one thing, he's missing at least one base class, Dragon Flame Adept and secondly, I'm pretty sure Paladin belongs in a higher tier than monk and a basic fighter, as well as some of the other fives.

Kurald Galain
2009-04-02, 04:13 AM
There was a different thread on the WOTC forums that did the same thing by vote. That is, rather than showing just one guy's opinion, it shows the averaged opinions of an entire forum. I'll see if I can dig that up.

Kaiyanwang
2009-04-02, 04:27 AM
Well let's see:

Maybe add some feats that actually give you bonuses to tripping, so that you can trip a mountain giant.

That's my point. Isn't better spent like 3-4 feats for tripping, 5-6 for charging, others in CReflexes, and use the best tactics for the right enemy?

I mean, why bother to trip the giant, climb on him and stab him on his back, or something else.*

*I see the giant has contermeasures or the fighter has to multiclass to take early Gianbane, just to say.

But I see that my gamestyle is different from that of a lot of people, not to say that one or another is wrong. Just talking about my experience.

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-02, 04:49 AM
C'mon, Rogue a tier 4, capable of doing ONE thing quite well?
He has good class options, has ton of skill points (always useful), and he can easily use all the magic he needs (in addiction to his own abilities) thanks to UMD. Without beeing restricted to class spell lists.
Not a tier 2, but definitely a 3.

JaronK has Rogue hate hardcore. He basically thinks they can never sneak attack and are always crappy. Pretty sure he throws it down in Tier 4 just to support his favorite class Factotum.

If you read through the whole 16 pages or whatever (I don't recommend it), lots of people basically argue that Rogue is higher ect, but he basically ignores everyone because he clearly knows optimization better then everyone.


That's my point. Isn't better spent like 3-4 feats for tripping, 5-6 for charging, others in CReflexes, and use the best tactics for the right enemy?

I mean, why bother to trip the giant, climb on him and stab him on his back, or something else.*

No, not really. Would you rather lose barely to half the enemies or lose horribly to 5% and be able to beat the other 95%?

Specializing in Tripping means you can take a tactic which you know will work most of the time (because you have higher numbers and you took feats that let you do it against enemies normally immune).

Being passable in many tactics means you regularly face opposition that can beat you at everything you can do.

Honestly, it's the problem with Fighters and feats more then anything else.

If you start a level 5 Fighter, you can do one thing. Now you hit level 6, should you make your one thing better or try to make a second thing better then it is, even though you know it won't even be useful until level 10.

I'd rather have some actual advantage now.

grautry
2009-04-02, 05:03 AM
In general terms it's OK, but I think that something is wrong.
C'mon, Rogue a tier 4, capable of doing ONE thing quite well?
He has good class options, has ton of skill points (always useful), and he can easily use all the magic he needs (in addiction to his own abilities) thanks to UMD. Without beeing restricted to class spell lists.
Not a tier 2, but definitely a 3.

Rogue is tier 4 because a Factotum is Tier 3. And they can generally do just about everything that the rogue does and have tons of other options.

Kaiyanwang
2009-04-02, 05:24 AM
No, not really. Would you rather lose barely to half the enemies or lose horribly to 5% and be able to beat the other 95%?

Specializing in Tripping means you can take a tactic which you know will work most of the time (because you have higher numbers and you took feats that let you do it against enemies normally immune).

Being passable in many tactics means you regularly face opposition that can beat you at everything you can do.

Honestly, it's the problem with Fighters and feats more then anything else.

If you start a level 5 Fighter, you can do one thing. Now you hit level 6, should you make your one thing better or try to make a second thing better then it is, even though you know it won't even be useful until level 10.

I'd rather have some actual advantage now.

I see your point, but you can even combine things in a full attack. Say you finished charge feats at level 6, Combat expertise will help you against retailatory attacks (myself, i prefer high damage as fast as possible, but I consider game situations highly variable, so happens to play defensively).

Later, you will use knockdown with a charge or a Combat Brute. Or trip tactics with combat reflexes, Knockdown with standstll, Or Trow a shield (IIRC the feat), then quickdraw bolas, 5 feet step, quickdraw a whip, trip, drop, and finish off an enemy.

Intimidate as a move (Zentharim ACF), making him cower (DotU)and Kiai shout in a crowd. Just to make someone go away, targettable by sorcerer's AOE.

I don't say that a fighter can do every thing I said the same time (until deep epic, at least), or that the fighter class (as well as feat system) couldn't be better.

I only think that whan you start a new feat tier, you don't start from the ground, and higher level you are, better combination you can find. For sure, you need right weapons and material, and you rely on magic items and buffs. ( and Maybe this could be a good parameter to chek class tiers).

NOTE: in all fairness, I have to point that it's a long time I play gestalt, so the fighter is just one side, on the other side you have class features or even more feats and a lot of skill points (feat rogue). Said so, i remember a player of mine doing great things with a straight fighter (mainly TWF, combat expertise, weapon supremacy).

Killer Angel
2009-04-02, 05:36 AM
Rogue is tier 4 because a Factotum is Tier 3. And they can generally do just about everything that the rogue does and have tons of other options.


Well, the only Core class in this tier 3, is bard... and I don't see a significative power escalation between Rogue and bard.
And I find that a rogue is A LOT more versatile than a barbarian (both tier 4) :smallconfused:.

Tempest Fennac
2009-04-02, 05:53 AM
Based on individual differences and experiences, it may be wise not to pay too much attention to the list (eg: a lot of people have said ToB classes are broken while others have compared them to Sorcerers power-wise). Personally, I wouldn't rate the Psionic Warrior as being as good as a Beguiller at all (I'm using a Psychic Warrior in a solo game and it seems pretty mediocre to me*).


*I decided not to go for a King of Smack build due to how using a reach weapon with Expansion would work out better for me due to how few PPs I have at this point (I'm level 5).

mikej
2009-04-02, 06:17 AM
In regards to the Rogue, I believe it was clarified better later on.


Q: Why is my favorite class too low? It should TOTALLY be much higher!

A: Remember, you're probably more experienced with your favorite class than with other classes. Plus, your personality probably fits well with the way that class works, and you probably are better inspired to work with that class. As such, whatever your favorite class is is going to seem stronger for you than everyone else. This is because you're simply going to play your favorite class in a more skillfull way... plus you'll be blinded to the shortcomings of that class, since you probably don't care about those anyway (they match with things that you as a player probably don't want to do anyway). As such, if I did this right most people should think their favorite class is a little too low, whether that class is Fighter or Monk or Rogue or whatever else.

Q: I totally saw a [Class X] perform far better than a [Class Y] even though you list it as lower. What gives?

A: This system assumes that everything other than mechanics is totally equal. It's a ranking of the mechanical classes themselves, not of the players who use that class. As long as the players are of equal skill and optimize their characters roughly the same amount, it's fine. If one player optimizes a whole lot more than the other, that will shift their position on the chart.

I've been in campaigns with a CW Samurai along side the Druid, or Wizard and the Rogue. I'd like to see how other classes that appear on the list do, but from what I've witnessed, its not too far off. The skill list ( especially the use of UMD ) and the pure versatility of the Rogue is usefull, but UMD can only go soo far. To be honest, most I've seen a Rogue is 3-4 levels, then the player gives up and writes up another class.

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-02, 08:07 AM
I've been in campaigns with a CW Samurai along side the Druid, or Wizard and the Rogue. I'd like to see how other classes that appear on the list do, but from what I've witnessed, its not too far off. The skill list ( especially the use of UMD ) and the pure versatility of the Rogue is usefull, but UMD can only go soo far. To be honest, most I've seen a Rogue is 3-4 levels, then the player gives up and writes up another class.

Except the assumption isn't someone completely incompetent playing the class, it's all things being equal.

Are you seriously going to claim that a Bard is way better then a Rogue? That a Factotum or Binder or Duskblade is? No, it's pretty much Rogue hate. Getting of a full attack of sneak attack once per combat does as much damage as a Duskblade spacing his damage across four combats. And frankly, if you are doing only that you are an incompetent rogue.

And Bard? I can only assume placing the Bard in Tier 3 is a joke. By which I mean, JaronK specifically defended based on the fact that you can take a bunch of cool PrCs that make you not a Bard and Bards are super useful in 100 vs 100 fights.

It's just like his weird hate for Dread Necros and Beguilers. I mean, he claims Favored Souls are better then Beguilers. That's just crack smoke. Beguilers are freaking hardcore sweet and need to be Tier 2, but he's got this claim that they are limited compared to Favored Souls. Because you know, when I can choose between glitterdust/solid fog/dominate/silent image, I just feel freaking helpless.

mikej
2009-04-02, 09:19 AM
Are you seriously going to claim that a Bard is way better then a Rogue? That a Factotum or Binder or Duskblade is? No, it's pretty much Rogue hate. Getting of a full attack of sneak attack once per combat does as much damage as a Duskblade spacing his damage across four combats. And frankly, if you are doing only that you are an incompetent rogue.

Actually I'm not a Rogue hater, I'd rather not be the trapfinder, soo I really don't nitpick often whoever plays one. Who to say the Bard can't be better than the Rogue? I've thrown together a few Bard ideas and it seems viable. To be honest, i'd rather see either a Artificer or Beguiler fill the role of trapfinder.

Regardless, any of those classes mention can be worked with. The Tier system shouldn't be taken serious, since you'd do better with your favored class anyways.


And Bard? I can only assume placing the Bard in Tier 3 is a joke. By which I mean, JaronK specifically defended based on the fact that you can take a bunch of cool PrCs that make you not a Bard and Bards are super useful in 100 vs 100 fights.

I'am not going to defend JaronK's decision on that, since I only can assume if he was actually biased, or had some logic behind it. Also Bard/Sublime Cord PrC makes you not a Bard? I'm under the assumption the Bard was place in Tier3, because of Dragonfire Inspiration, Sublime Cord, and multi-class potential with the Warblade/Crusader (Song of the White Raven).


It's just like his weird hate for Dread Necros and Beguilers. I mean, he claims Favored Souls are better then Beguilers. That's just crack smoke. Beguilers are freaking hardcore sweet and need to be Tier 2, but he's got this claim that they are limited compared to Favored Souls. Because you know, when I can choose between glitterdust/solid fog/dominate/silent image, I just feel freaking helpless.

I'll give this one, all of those ( especially the Beguiler ) aren't represented properly, in my general opinion. Flipping through the pages to read the Favored Soul entry, I'm not lift impressed at all.

Edit: Also coming from a person that played YGO for 6 years, was very competitive in SSBM ( quit when brawl was released ), tier ranking discussion never are 100% agreed upon. Usually just endless thread pages of arguments, since nobody likes to see any "X' of thiers get a bad ranking.

imperialspectre
2009-04-02, 09:43 AM
Are you seriously going to claim that a Bard is way better then a Rogue? That a Factotum or Binder or Duskblade is? No, it's pretty much Rogue hate. Getting of a full attack of sneak attack once per combat does as much damage as a Duskblade spacing his damage across four combats. And frankly, if you are doing only that you are an incompetent rogue.

And Bard? I can only assume placing the Bard in Tier 3 is a joke. By which I mean, JaronK specifically defended based on the fact that you can take a bunch of cool PrCs that make you not a Bard and Bards are super useful in 100 vs 100 fights.

It's just like his weird hate for Dread Necros and Beguilers. I mean, he claims Favored Souls are better then Beguilers. That's just crack smoke. Beguilers are freaking hardcore sweet and need to be Tier 2, but he's got this claim that they are limited compared to Favored Souls. Because you know, when I can choose between glitterdust/solid fog/dominate/silent image, I just feel freaking helpless.

Okay, so I typed up a careful statistical analysis of the rogue vs. the factotum, duskblade, and bard, and the forums ate it. Here's the short version.

Factotums get 7th level spells, limited healing/turning, and can get all of the Rogue sneak attack bonus at higher levels. At lower levels, they spam standard actions until they catch up to the Rogue in damage. Even at the skillmonkey/trapfinding role, the only thing that the Rogue is uniquely good at, the Factotum ends up ahead because with INT SAD, the factotum's 2 fewer innate skill points/level don't actually matter.

Duskblades get Arcane Channeling, which, at low levels, lets them do as much damage or more damage than a rogue gets on a whole full attack as a standard action. At roughly 6th level, the rogue pulls slightly ahead (assuming the Craven feat), but is passed up again at 7th level. Rogues can't even rely on a full attack, and even when they get one they're at a significant to-hit penalty compared to the Duskblade because of 3/4 BAB and TWF. Once the duskblade gets full attack channeling at 13th level, the Rogue is flat-out pwned in the area of quick spikes in damage, which is their only competency in combat.

Binders have outstanding versatility out of the box, and with the online supplements a binder can have four max-level summoned monsters active at all times. Just from pure action economy, that's going to blow away a rogue.

A Bard, no prestige classes, with Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation, and Song of the Heart gives everyone in the party 12d6 bonus damage per attack by mid-levels. Melodic Casting means that the bard can cast the whole time, or Snowflake Wardance means the bard gets CHA to damage and just caught up to the rogue in DPS damage. The rogue? No party support capability and can't even match that bonus for his own attacks.

Sure, Favored Souls are sucky. They're probably Tier 3, not Tier 2, especially considering they're casting off the weaker divine spell list. But Dread Necromancers are probably the worst full casters other than Warmages and Healers, just because the Dread Necro doesn't get any meaningful defensive magic and gets hardly any utility magic. And without Shadowcraft Mage or careful use of Advanced Learning, the Beguiler is almost entirely negated by anything immune to mind-affecting. Not Tier 2 material, considering that a sorcerer can know all of the good spells you mention and still have other resources that waste creatures with Immunity: Mind-affecting.

Tempest Fennac
2009-04-02, 09:52 AM
I would have thought the tiers were made without PrCs being considered due to how varied they are powerwise.

imperialspectre
2009-04-02, 02:06 PM
Well, yeah. Also because anyone who can qualify for Ur-Priest by 10th level essentially gets converted into a Tier 2 class.

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-02, 05:13 PM
You do exactly what JaronK does. You oprimize every class except the ones you don't like and then compare unoptimized characters against optimized ones.


Factotums get 7th level spells, limited healing/turning, and can get all of the Rogue sneak attack bonus at higher levels. At lower levels, they spam standard actions until they catch up to the Rogue in damage. Even at the skillmonkey/trapfinding role, the only thing that the Rogue is uniquely good at, the Factotum ends up ahead because with INT SAD, the factotum's 2 fewer innate skill points/level don't actually matter.

Uh what huh? At no level ever can a Factotum get as much SA damage in one combat as a Rogue in one round. He gets 1d6 per inspiration and has 10 inspiration at level 20. At level 5 he can do 4d6 SA at the cost of all his inspiration and the Rogue can do 3d6 SA on 2-4 attacks.


Duskblades get Arcane Channeling, which, at low levels, lets them do as much damage or more damage than a rogue gets on a whole full attack as a standard action. At roughly 6th level, the rogue pulls slightly ahead (assuming the Craven feat), but is passed up again at 7th level. Rogues can't even rely on a full attack, and even when they get one they're at a significant to-hit penalty compared to the Duskblade because of 3/4 BAB and TWF. Once the duskblade gets full attack channeling at 13th level, the Rogue is flat-out pwned in the area of quick spikes in damage, which is their only competency in combat.

If only there were seven and a half ways to get full attacks and more attacks. Like if the Rogue was using a bow and Rapid shotting and so was doing as much damage as the duskblade every round without ever having to expend spell slots.


Binders have outstanding versatility out of the box, and with the online supplements a binder can have four max-level summoned monsters active at all times. Just from pure action economy, that's going to blow away a rogue.

Wow, that's quite a compelling arguement. Except of course that the Binder ranked in Tier 3 is labelled as: "Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige)" which completely negates your point.


A Bard, no prestige classes, with Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation, and Song of the Heart gives everyone in the party 12d6 bonus damage per attack by mid-levels. Melodic Casting means that the bard can cast the whole time, or Snowflake Wardance means the bard gets CHA to damage and just caught up to the rogue in DPS damage. The rogue? No party support capability and can't even match that bonus for his own attacks.

So a Bard with Words of Creation, Song of the Heart, inspire courage, a masterwork instrument, ect. can get 12d6 extra damage at level 20?

Great. A Rogue at level 20 can full attack with 8 touch attacks and do 15d6+20 damage on each one. See what happens when you optimize both classes instead of just the ones you like?


Sure, Favored Souls are sucky. They're probably Tier 3, not Tier 2, especially considering they're casting off the weaker divine spell list. But Dread Necromancers are probably the worst full casters other than Warmages and Healers, just because the Dread Necro doesn't get any meaningful defensive magic and gets hardly any utility magic. And without Shadowcraft Mage or careful use of Advanced Learning, the Beguiler is almost entirely negated by anything immune to mind-affecting. Not Tier 2 material, considering that a sorcerer can know all of the good spells you mention and still have other resources that waste creatures with Immunity: Mind-affecting.

1) Oh The poor Dread Necros with their DR, immunities, and huge undead army have no defensive spells? I cry for them. Oh, they also have Planar Binding and have a Demon Army to go with their undead army, and they have an assortment of badass spells and infinite healing for themselves and their army? Yeah, they clearly suck.

2) Almost entirely negated? It's funny because you are obviously just spouting the party line without thinking because if you actually read the spells that I listed, you'd realize that every single one works on things immune to mind affecting.

A level 4 Beguiler has glitterdust, a level 6 has haste, slow, legion of sentinels, a level 8 has solid fog.

At almost every spell level a Beguiler gets 2-3 of the best enchantments spells in the game, The best Illusion spells for actual Illusions, a defensive Illusion like Mirror Image or Displacement, a AoE control spell that works on mind affecting immune enemies, 1-3 useful utility spells like dispel magic or disguise self or glibness.

There is no way a Sorcerer can even match the versatility of a Beguiler who doesn't use anything else, and there are ten and a half ways to add more spells.

And that spellcasting is on top of the best casting chassis in the entire game.

imperialspectre
2009-04-02, 07:33 PM
You do exactly what JaronK does. You oprimize every class except the ones you don't like and then compare unoptimized characters against optimized ones.

Not really, no. I actually like the Rogue, and I'm not even that familiar with the Binder. Also, my analysis of the classes above is talking about them pretty much out of the box, with class abilities and basic feats (aside from the Bard).


Uh what huh? At no level ever can a Factotum get as much SA damage in one combat as a Rogue in one round. He gets 1d6 per inspiration and has 10 inspiration at level 20. At level 5 he can do 4d6 SA at the cost of all his inspiration and the Rogue can do 3d6 SA on 2-4 attacks.

You're not very familiar with the Factotum, are you? For starters, the Font of Inspiration feat gets just about all the inspiration the Factotum needs, but also, the Cunning Brilliance ability allows the Factotum to emulate the Rogue's sneak attack ability and three other (Ex) class features.

Additionally, having spells, INT to attack, damage, and AC, and generally better skillmonkeying abilities means that even if the Rogue was better at doing damage (which he is for much of the game), the Factotum is better at the Rogue's other core competency and is better for the party as a whole.


If only there were seven and a half ways to get full attacks and more attacks. Like if the Rogue was using a bow and Rapid shotting and so was doing as much damage as the duskblade every round without ever having to expend spell slots.

How are you getting sneak attack on more than one round a combat with ranged weapons? You're not catching the target flatfooted, not flanking, and only getting Hide in Plain Sight if you took a specific template or are at very high levels. So the Rogue's only way to get sneak attacks reliably with ranged weapons is to depend on the other party members for invisibility, grease, or something else to help the Rogue catch the enemy flat-footed.

And when the Duskblade gets a ridiculous number of spell slots every day, it's not hard to blow a spell slot every combat round at higher levels and never run out. It's not like the Duskblade has anything else to use damage spells for.

And that's without accounting for Power Attack, which a Duskblade can use with no problem, dropping several points of BAB and still having as good a chance to hit as the Rogue.


Wow, that's quite a compelling arguement. Except of course that the Binder ranked in Tier 3 is labelled as: "Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige)" which completely negates your point.

That's the only vestige I'm particularly familiar with, honestly. My point about flexibility, which the rogue generally lacks, still stands.


So a Bard with Words of Creation, Song of the Heart, inspire courage, a masterwork instrument, ect. can get 12d6 extra damage at level 20?

Great. A Rogue at level 20 can full attack with 8 touch attacks and do 15d6+20 damage on each one. See what happens when you optimize both classes instead of just the ones you like?

No, a Bard with Words of Creation, Song of the Heart, and Dragonfire Inspiration hits +12d6 per attack at level 8. With a masterwork instrument, it's 16d6.

At level 20, it's 24d6 with a masterwork instrument. CHA to damage from Snowflake Wardance. And in terms of party utility, the bard is vastly more helpful, because that damage is on all the time and affects every attack made by every party member. Your move.


1) Oh The poor Dread Necros with their DR, immunities, and huge undead army have no defensive spells? I cry for them. Oh, they also have Planar Binding and have a Demon Army to go with their undead army, and they have an assortment of badass spells and infinite healing for themselves and their army? Yeah, they clearly suck.

Yeah, they actually do. Any other caster nukes them to hell and back (except Beguilers, who simply mind-control them, until level 20 when Beguilers are screwed). Dread Necros don't have celerity, they have no methods for generating a miss chance, let alone Mirror Image, and Planar Binding is duplicated by Sorcerers and everyone up from them.

I've seen a Dread Necromancer in play. It's not all that great in any environment that has real casters in it.

2) Almost entirely negated? It's funny because you are obviously just spouting the party line without thinking because if you actually read the spells that I listed, you'd realize that every single one works on things immune to mind affecting.

A level 4 Beguiler has glitterdust, a level 6 has haste, slow, legion of sentinels, a level 8 has solid fog.

At almost every spell level a Beguiler gets 2-3 of the best enchantments spells in the game, The best Illusion spells for actual Illusions, a defensive Illusion like Mirror Image or Displacement, a AoE control spell that works on mind affecting immune enemies, 1-3 useful utility spells like dispel magic or disguise self or glibness.

There is no way a Sorcerer can even match the versatility of a Beguiler who doesn't use anything else, and there are ten and a half ways to add more spells.

And that spellcasting is on top of the best casting chassis in the entire game.[/QUOTE]

Beguilers don't have a number of the good Knowledge skills. They also don't have the really good conjuration [creation] spells like acid fog or grease or cloudkill. If they get locked in a fog spell, they're stuck because they don't have any mobility spells like fly or dim door or teleport. Their spells known at 5th through 8th levels are generally poor, and you can't do so much with time stop when you don't have anything to follow it up with.

A Sorcerer blows away a Beguiler because a Sorcerer can have glitterdust, mirror image (until greater mirror image, of course), invisibility, and two other 2nd-level spells. Haste, slow, legion of sentinels, and another spell. Solid fog, greater mirror image, and two other spells. And from 5th level through 8th level, lots of things that Beguilers can't have. And all of those just out of the box, without debating whether sorcerers can learn divine spells (they can, by RAW), and without any of the tricks that Beguilers need to expand their spell list.

And for the record, I really like Beguilers. I've played them a few times now, and generally done fine for myself. They're not Tier 2 casters, though, without tricks to increase spells known (or Shadowcraft Mage, but sorcerers are still actually slightly better shadowcraft mages).

Chronos
2009-04-02, 10:07 PM
If the factotum didn't exist, then the rogue would be Tier 3, since (other than factotum), rogue is the best at using skills. The factotum, however, is significantly better at using skills, so the rogue isn't the best any more, and loses the claim to Tier 3.


A Sorcerer blows away a Beguiler because a Sorcerer can have glitterdust, mirror image (until greater mirror image, of course), invisibility, and two other 2nd-level spells. Haste, slow, legion of sentinels, and another spell. Solid fog, greater mirror image, and two other spells.That's just the list of non-mind-affecting spells the beguiler has. Now, granted, some things are immune to mind-affecting, but then again, some things aren't: They're still useful in many situations. And if the sorcerer wants to take any of those mind-effecting spells, the situation starts to look a lot better for the beguiler again. And that's just comparing spellcasting: The beguiler also has more HP, significantly more skill points (especially since Int is his primary stat), a great skill list (and Trapfinding) to use those skills on, and an assortment of other class features.

Frosty
2009-04-02, 10:16 PM
If the factotum didn't exist, then the rogue would be Tier 3, since (other than factotum), rogue is the best at using skills. The factotum, however, is significantly better at using skills, so the rogue isn't the best any more, and loses the claim to Tier 3.

That's just the list of non-mind-affecting spells the beguiler has. Now, granted, some things are immune to mind-affecting, but then again, some things aren't: They're still useful in many situations. And if the sorcerer wants to take any of those mind-effecting spells, the situation starts to look a lot better for the beguiler again. And that's just comparing spellcasting: The beguiler also has more HP, significantly more skill points (especially since Int is his primary stat), a great skill list (and Trapfinding) to use those skills on, and an assortment of other class features.

Even if the Factotum didn't exist, the existence of the Beguiler probably forces Rogue out of tier 3.

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-02, 10:18 PM
You're not very familiar with the Factotum, are you? For starters, the Font of Inspiration feat gets just about all the inspiration the Factotum needs, but also, the Cunning Brilliance ability allows the Factotum to emulate the Rogue's sneak attack ability and three other (Ex) class features.

I'm very familiar with the Factotum, I'm just also familiar with the Rogue. Font of Inspiration gives up all your other feats, and is required for the class because without it Factotums are pathetic. But even with it, they still have slightly more utility then a Rogue, some decent tricks rogues can't pull, and do way way less damage.

Cunning Brilliance allows them to, oh wait, nothing, because you have to be level 19 to use it, and no one plays at level 19, and if they did they'd play a Druid or a Wizard. And if a Factotum ever did get to level 19 they'd use Cunning Brilliance to emulate Sorcerer spellcasting, not SA progression, because they don't have the feats to take advantage of SA.


Additionally, having spells, INT to attack, damage, and AC, and generally better skillmonkeying abilities means that even if the Rogue was better at doing damage (which he is for much of the game), the Factotum is better at the Rogue's other core competency and is better for the party as a whole.

The Factotum can be slightly better at some skills, in the mean time, and he can cast 1 spell per encounter if he's really lucky, and he can perform in combat way worse then a Rogue. Yes, the Factotum is pretty much straight up on par with a Rogue, check it out. It's almost like they are the same tier! Crazy that?


How are you getting sneak attack on more than one round a combat with ranged weapons? You're not catching the target flatfooted, not flanking, and only getting Hide in Plain Sight if you took a specific template or are at very high levels. So the Rogue's only way to get sneak attacks reliably with ranged weapons is to depend on the other party members for invisibility, grease, or something else to help the Rogue catch the enemy flat-footed.

So basically, you assume that bard players own six books, and have discovered every cool bard thing ever, but that no Rogue player knows how to get SA at all? Remember how I said you are familiar with some classes and not at all with others and you think because you don't know how to do something that no one else does? Yeah, that. If someone who, when they choose to play a Bard, looks up all that crap, then they might possibly have asked themselves how to get sneak attack damage more then once a combat at some point.


And when the Duskblade gets a ridiculous number of spell slots every day, it's not hard to blow a spell slot every combat round at higher levels and never run out. It's not like the Duskblade has anything else to use damage spells for.

Yes, for example at level 5 he can add 5d6 damage to one attack 5 times a day, and then add 1d6 Int/Wis/Cha drain to two more.

Compared to a poor (Core) Rogue who only has 3 touch attacks for 3d6 extra damage each every round for infinity rounds. That's 9d6 extra damage each round, admittedly at the cost of some weapon damage and Str.


And that's without accounting for Power Attack, which a Duskblade can use with no problem, dropping several points of BAB and still having as good a chance to hit as the Rogue.

Except of course that those things Rogues do automatically to get SA also automatically lower peoples ACs.


That's the only vestige I'm particularly familiar with, honestly. My point about flexibility, which the rogue generally lacks, still stands.

There's a reason the Binder has two places on the tier list, because every other vestige sucks balls compared to that one. Welcome to the world of being a binder, where you can change what you do every day, but no matter what you choose to do, you won't be as good as the Rogue at the 2-3 things he's really good at. Almost like those classes are pretty similar, and one of them isn't a cut above the other.


No, a Bard with Words of Creation, Song of the Heart, and Dragonfire Inspiration hits +12d6 per attack at level 8. With a masterwork instrument, it's 16d6.

At what point does a Masterwork instrument add 4d6 damage? Do Words of creation and Song multiply bonuses?

Cause the level 8 Core Rogue can only do 5d6 damage on each of his 5 attacks. But if I were to you know, dip into every conceivable splat book for every possible increase, well, I can get it up to 7d6 damage on 6 attacks from memory, probably lots of other stuff that I don't care about because I don't play Rogues.


At level 20, it's 24d6 with a masterwork instrument. CHA to damage from Snowflake Wardance. And in terms of party utility, the bard is vastly more helpful, because that damage is on all the time and affects every attack made by every party member. Your move.

Right, as much as the Druid appreciates it, I don't think anyone really cares, or that it makes much difference, since a Fighter is doing 5000 damage per attack at that level, the Cleric Archer is shooting 26 attacks that when they all hit do about 2000 damage (not counting inspiration), and the non-core Rogue hits for 136d6+160 damage each round.

It's almost like no matter what arbitrarily large number of damage you come up with you can still kill everything in one round once you get it set up to be hit anyway.


Yeah, they actually do. Any other caster nukes them to hell and back (except Beguilers, who simply mind-control them, until level 20 when Beguilers are screwed). Dread Necros don't have celerity, they have no methods for generating a miss chance, let alone Mirror Image, and Planar Binding is duplicated by Sorcerers and everyone up from them.

Wait, so if they don't do anything to defend themselves (like hide themselves amongst their horde, or be a Necropolitian) and go 1v1 another caster they lose? Great, and that has what to do with an average campaign where they provide free infinite healing, have 3 Undead Fighter Equivalent minions, a bunch of mounts and stuff just for fun, some utility undead, a badass familiar, some Demon pets, oh right, and they can nuke and debuff enemies.


I've seen a Dread Necromancer in play. It's not all that great in any environment that has real casters in it.

Yeah, it's also way more badass then "Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior"

So maybe it belongs in Tier 2, beneath the real casters, and above the not real casters who it can basically perform half the functions of while also being a caster.


Beguilers don't have a number of the good Knowledge skills. They also don't have the really good conjuration [creation] spells like acid fog or grease or cloudkill. If they get locked in a fog spell, they're stuck because they don't have any mobility spells like fly or dim door or teleport. Their spells known at 5th through 8th levels are generally poor, and you can't do so much with time stop when you don't have anything to follow it up with.

They don't have all the good knowledges that Sorcerers do? Oh wait, Sorcerers don't. The have Shadow Conjuration, They are subject to Fog clouds, unless they dispel, but they can also just move out of the fog spell like normal, unless it's solid fog, in which case they can, oh right have to rely on someone else for once in the game.


A Sorcerer blows away a Beguiler because a Sorcerer can have glitterdust, mirror image (until greater mirror image, of course), invisibility, and two other 2nd-level spells. Haste, slow, legion of sentinels, and another spell. Solid fog, greater mirror image, and two other spells. And from 5th level through 8th level, lots of things that Beguilers can't have. And all of those just out of the box, without debating whether sorcerers can learn divine spells (they can, by RAW), and without any of the tricks that Beguilers need to expand their spell list.

Is that a joke? I don't care that your level 7 sorcerer knows glitterdust and mirror image and invisibility. I have all of those at level 4 when it matters, instead of getting to die because I don't have mirror image since I choose to have an attack spell.

I don't care that at level 11 you have haste/slow/legion/and another spell. Because by that time, I have a bunch of dominated minions, and solid fog.

Of course, at level 6 when it matters, I have haste/slow/Legion/deep slumber/hold person/vertigo field for combat, dispel/clairvoyance/arcane sight/glibness/invisibility sphere/major image/suggestion/non-detection for utility, and displacement for defense.

And what do you have? 1 spell.

Sorcerers aren't bad. But they also aren't better then Beguilers. If a Sorcerer picks a spell as known that a Beguiler has, he's a loser for that level. Sorcerers are only as good as Beguilers when they choose Wings of Flurry instead of Solid Fog.

Sinfire Titan
2009-04-02, 10:42 PM
The only ones I can think of off the top of my head that have reached a general consensus about their tier are Erudite (Tier 1) and Totemist (Tier 3).

Also, remember that the creator of the list considers Tier 3 the best and 1 the worst, since the list was created as way to help prevent balance issues wrecking people's fun.

Sort of. Totemists are on-par with classes like PsiWar or Warblade. The Erudite (Spell-to-Power variant) is on par with the Archivist (able to cast virtually any spell in existence, and has the advantage of being able to cast multiple spells/round without using Quicken Power). Without Spell-to-Power, Erudites rank anywhere between Tier 2 and Tier 5 partially due to their dependence on their Unique Powers.

The original creator of the Tiers thread (JaronK is created with the actual thread, but OneWinged4ngel was the one who mentioned the idea in the first place) considered Tier 1 to be the most powerful and most likely to shatter the campaign outright, with Tier 3 being the balancing point. Tiers 4-6 (counting the Truenamer) are literally trash classes that can be completely shut down with basic situations (IE: Fighters are listed there due to heavy reliance on things like Charging, Tripping, etc, which can be easily bypassed by simple terrain advantage).


The thread has since been expanded upon here. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)

The_JJ
2009-04-02, 11:09 PM
All of this is irrelivent to how you roleplay...

... and now I'll leave.

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-02, 11:50 PM
All of this is irrelivent to how you roleplay...

... and now I'll leave.

Actually, it's not. You can't roleplay the great Truenamer who bends the very world to his will through the power of words in the same party as a Wizard.

Truenamer: I am all powerful! I will now unmake you for 12d6 damage.

Wizard: I will finish the job by unmaking you with Acid for 200 damage.

Truenamer: Crap, can I learn magic? It's way better then the power of words.

Kaiyanwang
2009-04-03, 01:18 AM
Actually, it's not. You can't roleplay the great Truenamer who bends the very world to his will through the power of words in the same party as a Wizard.

Truenamer: I am all powerful! I will now unmake you for 12d6 damage.

Wizard: I will finish the job by unmaking you with Acid for 200 damage.

Truenamer: Crap, can I learn magic? It's way better then the power of words.

IMHO, assume that in every campaing is present every class is an error. You could even have a almost martial only campaing in wich Paladins are called Battle Healers and Hexblades Wzards, because are the most uber thing you can find in the campaign about divine and arcane magic.

Truenamer, barring bad math, has been designed for a book intended to be "not another broken spellcaster". I doubt should be used with a wizard.

Just IMHO.

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-03, 02:46 AM
IMHO, assume that in every campaing is present every class is an error. You could even have a almost martial only campaing in wich Paladins are called Battle Healers and Hexblades Wzards, because are the most uber thing you can find in the campaign about divine and arcane magic.

Truenamer, barring bad math, has been designed for a book intended to be "not another broken spellcaster". I doubt should be used with a wizard.

Whether or not two classes should be used together is the entire point of the Tier system. And to say that the Tier system "doesn't effect you roleplaying" is stupid, because it totally does. It tells you who you can play as what.

You can play your fighter as a Master of Combat in a game that only features Truenamers, Monks, Barbarians, ect.

You cannot play your fighter as a Master of Combat in a party with a Warblade. You can still play him as a Caravan Guard apprenticed to the Master of Combat.

So while the actual quantifying of Tiers is not directly influencing roleplaying, the thing being quantified: (Relative) Character Power, absolutely influences roleplay.

Cainen
2009-04-03, 03:37 AM
You're forgetting something.

Critical immunity.

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-03, 07:20 AM
You're forgetting something.

Critical immunity.

I assume you are referring to rogues v others, so I will point out that all it take to overcome all immunities except oozes is 5000gp and a feat.

imperialspectre
2009-04-03, 11:00 AM
[lots of Rogue stuff]

Okay, you convinced me. Rogues and Factotums are probably in the same tier, and probably end up low Tier 3 or high Tier 4.


So basically, you assume that bard players own six books, and have discovered every cool bard thing ever, but that no Rogue player knows how to get SA at all? Remember how I said you are familiar with some classes and not at all with others and you think because you don't know how to do something that no one else does? Yeah, that. If someone who, when they choose to play a Bard, looks up all that crap, then they might possibly have asked themselves how to get sneak attack damage more then once a combat at some point.

There are a number of ways to reliably get sneak attack. Flanking is usually the best, and a couple feats or a Swordsage dip will get flanking...but just for creatures you threaten, which is melee-only. The only way to feint as a free action that I know of was Invisible Blade, and that's been errata'ed into being completely worthless.

Other than that, it's usually catching the enemy flat-footed, which requires concealment or being undetected, which requires either help from casters or a Hide in Plain Sight ability + Darkstalker.

If you would explain how you would get ranged sneak attacks every round, I could at least look it up and evaluate how that worked.


Yes, for example at level 5 he can add 5d6 damage to one attack 5 times a day, and then add 1d6 Int/Wis/Cha drain to two more.

Compared to a poor (Core) Rogue who only has 3 touch attacks for 3d6 extra damage each every round for infinity rounds. That's 9d6 extra damage each round, admittedly at the cost of some weapon damage and Str.

That's assuming a flask Rogue using rapid shot, right? How are you going to pay for 3 10gp flasks every combat round?


Except of course that those things Rogues do automatically to get SA also automatically lower peoples ACs.

And Duskblades get Wraithstrike. And Power Attack, as I mentioned.


There's a reason the Binder has two places on the tier list, because every other vestige sucks balls compared to that one. Welcome to the world of being a binder, where you can change what you do every day, but no matter what you choose to do, you won't be as good as the Rogue at the 2-3 things he's really good at. Almost like those classes are pretty similar, and one of them isn't a cut above the other.

Okay, that works.


At what point does a Masterwork instrument add 4d6 damage? Do Words of creation and Song multiply bonuses?

Cause the level 8 Core Rogue can only do 5d6 damage on each of his 5 attacks. But if I were to you know, dip into every conceivable splat book for every possible increase, well, I can get it up to 7d6 damage on 6 attacks from memory, probably lots of other stuff that I don't care about because I don't play Rogues.

Words of Creation doubles your Inspire Courage bonus, Dragonfire Inspiration gives +2d6 per point of Inspire Courage. +1 to Inspire Courage = +4d6 damage.


Right, as much as the Druid appreciates it, I don't think anyone really cares, or that it makes much difference, since a Fighter is doing 5000 damage per attack at that level, the Cleric Archer is shooting 26 attacks that when they all hit do about 2000 damage (not counting inspiration), and the non-core Rogue hits for 136d6+160 damage each round.

It's almost like no matter what arbitrarily large number of damage you come up with you can still kill everything in one round once you get it set up to be hit anyway.

That's probably a reason to prefer the Bard to the Rogue, since if there's a diminishing return for huge amounts of damage, a class that has other uses is preferable to a class that just does damage.


Wait, so if they don't do anything to defend themselves (like hide themselves amongst their horde, or be a Necropolitian) and go 1v1 another caster they lose? Great, and that has what to do with an average campaign where they provide free infinite healing, have 3 Undead Fighter Equivalent minions, a bunch of mounts and stuff just for fun, some utility undead, a badass familiar, some Demon pets, oh right, and they can nuke and debuff enemies.

Divinations easily target the Dread Necro inside the horde. The undead minions really aren't fighter-equivalent, because I don't recall them actually getting feats of any sort. And the Dread Necro also generally loses in melee, because the DR and armor abilities aren't actually good enough to not die from a couple hits.

Again, I have some experience DMing for a Dread Necromancer, and it's not an easy class to DM for. Crusaders, Wildshape Rangers, Duskblades, Warblades, and Psychic Warriors (because those are the classes I have personal experience optimizing) are all able to take on a Dread Necromancer and do fine, and a Tier 2 caster easily beats the Dread Necromancer just from having more and better options for spells.


Yeah, it's also way more badass then "Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior"

So maybe it belongs in Tier 2, beneath the real casters, and above the not real casters who it can basically perform half the functions of while also being a caster.

It isn't, it doesn't, and it can't. The classes I mentioned above all do fine against a Dread Necro at almost all levels. This is especially true because the "infinite healing" is only out-of-combat, which means that unless the Dread Necro is blowing a high-level spell slot he just gets pureed in either melee or casting.


They don't have all the good knowledges that Sorcerers do? Oh wait, Sorcerers don't. The have Shadow Conjuration, They are subject to Fog clouds, unless they dispel, but they can also just move out of the fog spell like normal, unless it's solid fog, in which case they can, oh right have to rely on someone else for once in the game.

Is that a joke? I don't care that your level 7 sorcerer knows glitterdust and mirror image and invisibility. I have all of those at level 4 when it matters, instead of getting to die because I don't have mirror image since I choose to have an attack spell.

I don't care that at level 11 you have haste/slow/legion/and another spell. Because by that time, I have a bunch of dominated minions, and solid fog.

Of course, at level 6 when it matters, I have haste/slow/Legion/deep slumber/hold person/vertigo field for combat, dispel/clairvoyance/arcane sight/glibness/invisibility sphere/major image/suggestion/non-detection for utility, and displacement for defense.

And what do you have? 1 spell.

Sorcerers aren't bad. But they also aren't better then Beguilers. If a Sorcerer picks a spell as known that a Beguiler has, he's a loser for that level. Sorcerers are only as good as Beguilers when they choose Wings of Flurry instead of Solid Fog.

Hmm, okay. But most of this goes to show that Beguilers go to T2, while they're clearly superior to the Dread Necromancer (sure, the Dread Necro has a number of spells known, but the spells tend to do the same thing several different ways). I still think that having some degree of flexibility in how one chooses spells is more useful than casting spells off a limited spell list, but that may be a preference in play style instead of an objective difference.

woodenbandman
2009-04-03, 11:16 AM
hey guys:

Bard is tier 3 because of these reasons:

A: Versatility: A bard is versatile. They have buff spells and abilities, they have debuff spells and abilities. They have skillpoints and a great skill list, they have "Bardic Knack" to capitalize on that. They have a few Exotic Weapon Proficiencies which are okay, they are fairly decent in combat (not as good as a rogue, but they can definitely help out)... A rogue, while better at skills by a little and better at combat by a larger margin, has no buffs and no debuffs. Bard versatility > Rogue versatility.

B: Power: If a bard chooses the right feats, he adds a lot of power to his party. A bard can add a +8 to attack and damage for the party's fighter, or add 8d6 fire damage per hit. That's more than the rogue can do, all he does is add 10d6 on each of his attacks, rather than 8d6 on everyone's attacks. Bard power > Rogue power.

C: Versatility: As in, versatility in build structure. A bard is a great starting point for any number of awesome builds. A bard can focus on their music and go into Virtuoso for cool abilities. That's another thing, Bardic Music rocks. Suggestion? Fascinate? Hells yeah! Inspire Rage, with War Chanter? Inspire Hatred ACF? Dragonfire Inspiration? That Dirgesinger thing? all totally awesome! Also a bard can multiclass into Warblade or Crusader, for awesome Inspire Courage coupled with White Raven maneuvers. Or they could use Sublime Chord for cool spells! They can do many of these at a time! Spells and music? Spells and Fightin'? Music and Fightin? Just Fightin?

A bard is very versatile, and while it can't compare with a rogue's raw damage output, it sure as hell adds a lot more to the party. If you want, you can call a rogue a tier 3, but you have to understand that it's not because the rogue is super versatile and awesome, it's because they're capable of a lot of damage and that's really it. Damage and skills. A bard can do damage, skills, buffs, debuffs, and maybe some fifth thing.

So bards are better than rogues, and factotums are better than rogues. If factotums and bards are tier 3, rogues are then probably a tier 4. It's a high tier 4, but a tier 4 nevertheless.

Killer Angel
2009-04-03, 11:38 AM
[QUOTE=mikej;
Edit: Also coming from a person that played YGO for 6 years, was very competitive in SSBM ( quit when brawl was released ), tier ranking discussion never are 100% agreed upon. Usually just endless thread pages of arguments, since nobody likes to see any "X' of thiers get a bad ranking.[/QUOTE]

I sense wisdom in this words, and I completely agree...
So, given the fact that I'm still of the opinion that Rogue is a tier up than barbarian and at pair with the bard, I prefer not to feed the flames.
Probably ?im wrong: after all, a class (such the bard) grows in power with splatbooks, and I don't know so well all of them.

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-03, 12:41 PM
@imperialspectre

Sneak Attack is easy via Ring of Blinking. Of course, there are other ways, like HiPS, which is also easy to get, or various items that effectively provide you with SA each round.

As for costing flasks, first you craft them so it costs 10gp per round, secondly, you make way more then that each combat, thirdly, you do 12d6 (or 15d6) damage a round for that 10gp, so it doesn't actually take more then 1 or 2 rounds to finish.

Dread Necro: Sorry, I don't buy it. They have rebuked undead minions, and 48HD of undead at level 8. Your Wildshape may be good, but it's not good enough to fight two 20HD skeletons while you have to deal with a Dread Necro casting.

I played a Dread Necro, I never had problems getting squished, or getting targeted by spells, because I didn't make myself an obvious target. When you have 20+ Undead of varying strengths fighting you (not to mention some of the living), it's pretty odd to ignore 19 of them to go after the one that happens to be a PC.

Sorcerer v Beguiler. Yes, getting to pick your spells is better then having them assigned. But a better casting stat, armor, more HP, more skill points, more spells to cast from at any level, and some actual class features, however minimal, are enough to make up for the inability to choose the really really broken spells.


B: Power: If a bard chooses the right feats, he adds a lot of power to his party. A bard can add a +8 to attack and damage for the party's fighter, or add 8d6 fire damage per hit. That's more than the rogue can do, all he does is add 10d6 on each of his attacks, rather than 8d6 on everyone's attacks. Bard power > Rogue power.

Except that your average party is four people, two of whom don't make attacks and one of whom is the Bard.

So what you actually do is you compare the number of Bard attacks (2-3) the number of attacks by the other party member (1-4), compared to the Rogue (6-8) And then compare bonus damage.

As for versatility, Versatility of build doesn't count for anything, so strike that from your list. It means "Bards" might be more fun than "Rogues" but not that they are more powerful, since any Bard build itself is no more able to switch what it is good at than a Rogue.

Really wood, I expect better from you after our long history. :smallfrown:

Delaney Gale
2009-04-03, 01:00 PM
Some may have noticed that I have a full-on case of rogue love, so I figure I'd put my word in here...

Rogue, as a class, is limited. If you go straight rogue to 20, you are the absolute best at pulling fancy tricks with your body and mind (skills), you're good at getting out of the way, and you're good at hitting things where it hurts. With good feat and equipment choices, you're probably more valuable in combat than a straight fighter by a lot, plus you can keep traps from killing your party and, if you don't have a bard/paladin/sorcerer, you're a pretty good candidate for party face. Namely, it gives you a lot of options and a lot of good fluff for role-playing. It's a solid class, and I would never call a rogue "underpowered". However, the rogue has two main weaknesses. Fort and Will saves get more important as level increases, while Reflex saves become less important (Fort/Will-or-die are a lot more common than Reflex-or-die), so you're more likely to be killed quickly than other classes- or worse, get dominated and kill your party members. Rogues are also less useful the more enemies you're facing at a time, and are less useful face-to-face, so maneuverability is key- in tight spaces, rogues lose a lot of their advantages.

The flip side of this, however, is that rogue is a fantastic place to start for multiclassing. Sure, I may not have all the high-level rogue abilities with only 7 levels of rogue on my current build, but those seem kind of silly compared to the 5 levels of transmuter, level of arcane archer, and 6 levels of arcane trickster. The level-stack feats in Complete Scoundrel definitely pumped up the multiclass potential of rogue as well. So even though rogue's my favorite class, I don't think straight rogue's Tier 3 (particularly if your DM uses natural 1 = fail on skill checks- UMD could end so badly). If we consider bard and rogue on the same level, allowing for multiclassing/prestige classing, I don't think either one will end up better than the other- bard is a support role, rogue is a "surgical strike" role. I'd, of course, prefer the rogue :)

Frosty
2009-04-03, 10:35 PM
:smalleek:Wait what? DFI gives +2d6 per point of Inspire Courage? when did that happen? are you sure it's not +1d6 damage?