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View Full Version : New PrC:  Quickbolt (heavily revised Boltborn)



AdInfinitum
2005-07-20, 08:39 PM
Just to clarify: "A half-humorous combat-oriented prestige class based on dual-wielding hand crossbows. Yep. What we have here is a (really-)old-fashioned gunslinger."

This is meant as a half-imitation, half-satire of action heroes from Neo to the Terminator. Abilities as Uncanny Reload are meant as skewer of this.

I had wanted to put this in the older version’s topic (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1121046499 ), but I’ve put so much into this PrC that it no longer fits in the topic post! Just as well, it looks better split this way... I have to laugh (or cry) when I remember saying it would only take a few minutes to put the second version together… This has eaten up all the time I thought I had for the city contest… ah well.

To those who commented on Boltborn: Thank you all for your help so far. It feels like this class is much more cohesive now, and more play-ready. That doesn’t mean it isn’t still without rough edges; in particular, “snapshot” could stand a name change, and I’m still not sure about the difficulty of some DCs or the clarity of some segments.

And if I betray my ignorance of the rules, please call me on it.
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Quickbolt – A half-humorous combat-oriented prestige class based on dual-wielding hand crossbows. Yep. What we have here is a (really-)old-fashioned gunslinger.

They were the longest five seconds of my life.

It was supposed to be a perfect ambush. My unit was arrayed along a wide pathway in the old ruins. There were so many nooks and crannies in the ruined stonework that each member of the group was able to have their own foxhole. The entrance would be destroyed once the target entered the ruins, and the only other way out would be past us. The target was a specialist in ranged combat, and surely couldn’t compete with any of our swords in close quarters; his only escape would be to run past our waiting arrows. Whiren, our quartermaster, set up a pool on how far down the passage the target would reach before being taken down. The furthest anyone bet was forty feet.

I took a nice little hole a hundred feet in, still near the middle of the company but far enough that I probably wouldn’t see any action. That was fine with me; I was more interested in the mausoleum than the mark. I hadn’t had long to study before I heard the sound of battle. Reluctantly, I started to put away my kit... and froze. By the sound of it, the battle wasn’t over yet, and it was getting closer. Without a weapon ready, I looked to the hallway.

What I saw…What I saw was a gnome in midstride. He was dressed all in black – the lenses on his eyes, the leather armor around his chest, the long cloak billowing behind him, even the crossbow in each hand. As I watched, arrows rushed to meet him and missed, apparently unwilling to profane his glorious vestments. He fired shot after shot, the bolts apparently jumping into his crossbows for the honor of being used by this man. He seemed to be walking in slow motion, moving slowly past me… then he was gone, and I was in shock.

When I recovered, I nervously poked my head into the passage proper. The target was gone, but his presence still permeated the room. A few corpses were in plain sight, pieces of wood sticking from their eyes, but more common was the single, unmoving arm, and the pool of blood emanating from around it. In two minutes, the entire floor was covered by my friends’ blood. I retrieved my archaeology kit and left.

You might think that my strange interest saved my life, but I am just as damned as the rest of my company. The beauty of this fighter, the very perfection of design.....! It seems as if every moment of history is pointing towards this marksman as being the culmination point. I must find him again, must learn the secret of this dance. I will never be fit to join my comrades in that mausoleum until I do.




Background:

Quickbolts are fighters specializing in the usually clunky choice of multiple hand crossbows. There is nothing clunky about a quickbolt’s craft, however. They are masters at ranged combat, able to decimate entire squads of soldiers before they have a chance to engage the quickbolt in melee combat.

Quickbolts vary wildly in appearance and demeanor. Many are thin and quick, relying on mobility to get them through a fight. Others are engines of devastation, slowly carving their way through enemies and relying on their health and sheer moxy to keep them alive. Many quickbolts are silent, choosing not to be distracted by talk while the chance of ambush is present (which it always is). Others revel in banter and other opportunities to sidetrack or appease assailants.

Quickbolts come from almost all walks of life; the only common thread is having witnessed a quickbolt fight at some point. Monks are drawn to the style by the understanding a Quickbolt displays with every breath, while rogues appreciate the way the combat style melds with their own. Rangers and fighters that specialize in ranged combat are excited by this new style, while bards see a sort of music in the way the quickbolt moves and fights – there is never a missed note. Members of spell-casting classes are sometimes drawn to this paragon of ranged combat, although their bolts are usually less effective than the spells they give up. Paladins and barbarians are usually unlikely to give up their amazing melee capabilities, although those that do quickly become legendary for their relentlessness.

Despite the haphazard circumstances that bring each individual to the style, each quickbolt without exception seeks to master combat through a combination of understanding and projection, and as such, is recognized as an acceptable path for monastic training. As such, a monk can freely take levels in the Quickbolt prestige class and still take levels of monk at a later time.

Hit Die: D8




Requirements: To qualify to become a quickbolt, a character must fulfill all the following criteria:

Base Attack Bonus: +7
Skills: Spot 5 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 13 ranks
Feats: Rapid Reload [hand crossbow], Two Weapon Fighting



Class Skills: The quickbolt’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Languages (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill points per level: (6 + Int modifier)


{table]

Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special


1
1
0
2
0
Dance of Glory, Uncanny Reload


2
2
0
3
0
Circumvent Barriers


3
3
1
3
1
Uncanny Dodge


4
4
1
4
1
Fluid Ambidexterity


5
5
1
4
1
Snapshot +1D6


6
6
2
5
2
Doublestrike


7
7
2
5
2
Ranged Knockback


8
8
2
6
2
Whirl of Wonder


9
9
3
6
3
Unerring Aim


10
10
3
7
3
Danse Macabre, Snapshot +2D6

[/table]





Class Features: All of the following are class features of the quickbolt prestige class:


Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Quickbolts gain no proficiency with any weapon, armor or shield.


Dance of Glory (Ex): When dual-wielding a pair of hand crossbows, a quickbolt takes on an almost mythic quality. As she progresses in the class, her understanding of battle gradually increases to the point where she can simply convince her opponent's attacks not to hit her, and can easily hit opponents well beyond her weapon's normal range.

She adds 1 point of charisma bonus (if any) per quickbolt class level as an insight bonus to her AC. For instance, a fourth level quickbolt with a charisma score of 16 (+3 bonus) can add +3 to her AC, while a fourth level quickbolt with a charisma score of 20 (+5 bonus) may only add +4.

For each 1 point of wisdom bonus (if any) per quickbolt class level, she adds 10’ as an insight bonus to the range increment of the hand crossbows she uses. Furthermore, for each 10’ added this way, she adds 5’ to the maximum range of her precision-based abilities, such as Sneak Attack or Snapshot.

She loses all bonuses of this ability while wearing medium or heavy armor or carrying more than a light load, or is denied her dexterity bonus to AC.




Uncanny Reload (Ex): Quickbolts are well known for the never-ceasing barrage of bolts they can launch at their enemies, seemingly never having to reload. Reloading a hand crossbow no longer provokes an attack of opportunity. Furthermore, while dual-wielding hand crossbows, a quickbolt still enjoys the full benefits of the Rapid Reload feat, even though she does not have a free hand!




Circumvent Barriers (Ex): To a quickbolt, “Take cover!” is just a pleasant way of saying “Shoot me in an overly dramatic way!” Beginning at second level, as a move equivalent action, a quickbolt may apply her wisdom bonus (if any) as a penalty to a creature’s cover bonus to AC against the quickbolt’s attacks that round. This does not reduce the cover bonus to less than zero, nor does it cause the target to be denied her dexterity bonus to AC. This has no effect on targets with total cover.




Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Part of the quickbolt’s innate grasp of combat is recognizing when it’s about to start. Anything can tip it off: a stranger’s glance, a shift in the air, a couple of half-orcs loudly calling her name and cracking their knuckles - really, anything can do it. The reputation quickbolts have built for never being surprised is then simply the result of their thinking, “Oh, ****” a few seconds earlier than anyone else.

Starting at third level, a quickbolt can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

If a quickbolt already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.




Fluid Ambidexterity (Ex): A quickbolt is a deadly opponent, no matter which shaft you are looking down. Starting at fourth level, when using the full attack option, she may choose to make some or all of her additional attacks granted by feats, spells or a high base attack bonus each round using an off-hand crossbow instead of her primary attack or vice versa.

For example: Marie is a LN fourth level quickbolt with a base attack bonus of 14 and the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat. She wields a Holy Hand Crossbow +1 as her primary weapon and an Unholy Hand Crossbow +1 in her other hand. Her high base attack bonus gives her two additional attacks with her primary weapon, while her Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat grants her an additional attack with her offhand weapon, for a total full attack of +13/+8/+3 and + 13/+8. If Marie were faced with a vampire, a generally evil creature, she would still have to make her first offhand attack with her unholy crossbow; but she could make her second off-hand attack (granted by the feat) with the much more effective holy weapon. Conversely, if Marie was faced with an archon, a uniformly good family of outsiders, she would still have to make her first primary attack with the holy weapon, but could make the rest of her attacks with the more effective unholy weapon.




Snapshot(Ex): A single shot by any normal combatant is rarely enough to drop even the weakest of foes. A single shot by a quickbolt is a different matter entirely. His amazing skill can find critical bodily systems clerics don’t realize exist, and pierce it with perfect regularity.

At 5th level, a quickbolt gains the ability to swiftly strike vital systems with a hand crossbow, gaining an extra 1d6 damage added to her normal damage roll. This damage applies only to ranged attacks and only those made against targets within 30’; a quickbolt cannot aim with the necessary precision beyond that distance. A quickbolt’s Snapshot only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to a Snapshot, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a Snapshot. At 10th level, the extra damage on Snapshots increases to +2d6.




Double Strike (Ex): As a quickbolt progresses into the higher levels, she gradually realizes that only attacking once is a little bit silly. She has a perfectly good weapon in a perfectly good hand that’s not doing anything at that moment, and honestly, aiming isn’t much of a problem for a high-level quickbolt, now is it.

As a standard action, a sixth level quickbolt may make one attack roll at her highest base attack bonus with each hand crossbow she wields. A quickbolt may target different enemies with each crossbow, but each target beyond the first causes a cumulative -5 penalty to the attack roll.




Ranged Knockback (Ex): Perhaps the most well-known of the quickbolt’s abilities, this affects those unfortunate enough to be her target. The quickbolt’s attacks come riding on a wave of force that often knocks her enemy off their feet. If the effect came from the weapon itself, the quickbolt would be thrown backwards even farther than her target; therefore, it is safe to assume that the force comes from the quickbolt’s own force of personality!

Twice per day, at the end of any full attack, a quickbolt may designate one target hit with a bolt from her hand crossbow to be subjected to this ability. That character must immediately succeed on a fortitude or reflex save (DC 10 + the quickbolt’s class level + the quickbolt’s Charisma modifier) or be pushed back an amount of feet equal to half the amount they failed the saving throw by (rounded up to the nearest 5’) as if bull rushed. If the character fails their saving throw by 20 or more, they are also knocked prone. Each of the target’s size categories greater than medium provides the target with a +6 bonus to the save.




Whirl of Wonder (Su): A quickbolt approaching the full understanding of her style is a truly awesome sight to behold. The mere sight of such a quickbolt in action is enough to make some people simply stop and go “Ooooo…..”

The first round each day that a character is engaged in a battle with a quickbolt, that character must make a will save (DC: Half the quickbolt’s class level, rounded down + the quickbolt’s Charisma modifier) or be stunned for that round. Regardless of success or failure, that subject gets a permanent +5 bonus on all future Whirl of Wonder saves; this bonus is cumulative with itself.




Unerring Aim (Ex): There are some shots which are impossible to make. None of them come from the weapon of a quickbolt. A quick tour of the aftermath of one of their fights will reveal bolts sticking out of eyeholes, necks, even the finger joints of full plate armor. And each of those wounds will belong to a corpse.

As a move-equivalent action, a ninth-level quickbolt may apply her wisdom bonus (if any) as a penalty against a target creature’s armor or natural armor bonus to AC against the quickbolt’s ranged attacks that round (the qquickbolt chooses which bonus type when she uses the ability). This does not reduce the AC bonus to less than zero, nor does it ever deny the target their dexterity bonus to AC. Creatures with cover are immune to this ability.




Danse Macabre (Ex): To a quickbolt at the pinnacle of her craft, attacking is simply second nature. As such, she can concentrate less on aiming, reloading and pulling the trigger and more on, say, getting out of the path of that lava drift.

At tenth-level, the number of five foot steps a quickbolt may take each round is equal to her dexterity bonus (if positive), up to a total distance of (her normal speed - 10) feet.




Multiclass Note: A monk who becomes a quickbolt may continue advancing as a monk.

AdInfinitum
2005-07-20, 08:39 PM
Sample Quickbolt: Marie Sevletaine is a former monk who was expelled from her order for refusing to punish a very young half-elf intruder. Knowing the draconian penances demanded by her order, she thought that the child could not possibly survive and the punishment was useless. Without either guidance or faith in her monk teachings, she gradually adapted to life in the lower-class neighborhoods of major cities, until she witnessed a Quickbolt fight and win a coliseum battle in Lesser Andover. Under his tutelage, and later through her own adventures, Sevletaine has emerged as one of the masters of the style.

Character in 3E-Profiler (http://3ep.rpgprofiler.net/3ep/view.php?id=28898)

(This is my first real stat block; please forgive any errors you find and bring them to my attention so that I don’t repeat them….)

Marie Sevletaine: Female halfling monk 6 / rogue 4 / quickbolt 10; CR 20; Small humanoid; HD 16D8+32 plus 4D6+8; hp 116; Init + 12; Spd 40 ft.; AC 56, touch 47, flatfooted 56; Base Atk +17; Grp +16; Atk +17 melee (1D8-1/x2, Unarmed Strike (magic)) or +32 ranged (1D3 +2 +2d6 vs lawful + 2D6 vs chaotic/19-20, +2 Anarchic Axiomatic Hand Crossbow) or +32 ranged (1D3 +2 +1D6 fire +1D6 cold +1D6 electricity/19-20, +2 Flaming Frost Shock Seeking Hand Crossbow); Full Atk +16/+16/+11/+6/+1 Melee (1D8-1/x2, Unarmed Strike (magic)) or +30/+25/+20/+15 ranged (1D3 +2 +1D6 fire +1D6 cold +1D6 electricity/19-20, +2 Flaming Frost Shock Seeking Hand Crossbow) and +30/+25/+20 ranged (1D3 +2 +2d6 vs lawful + 2D6 vs chaotic/19-20, +2 Anarchic Axiomatic Hand Crossbow) or +28/+28/+23/+18/+13 ranged (1D3 +2 +1D6 fire +1D6 cold +1D6 electricity/19-20, +2 Flaming Frost Shock Seeking Hand Crossbow) and +28/+23/+18 ranged (1D3 +2 +2d6 vs lawful + 2D6 vs chaotic/19-20, +2 Anarchic Axiomatic Hand Crossbow); SA circumvent barriers, dance of glory, doublestrike, fluid ambidexterity, ranged knockback, snapshot +2d6, sneak attack +2d6, unerring aim; SQ danse macabre, evasion, halfling qualities, improved uncanny dodge, purity of body, slow fall 30’, still mind, trapfinding, trap sense, uncanny dodge, whirl of wonder; AL NG; SV Fort +15 (+17 vs enchantments or fear affects), Ref +32 (+34 vs enchantments or fear affects), Will +22 (+24 vs enchantments or fear affects); Str 8, Dex 34, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 28, Cha 26.

Skills and feats: Balance +17, Climb +1, Craft (Weaponsmithing) +14, Escape Artist +13, Hide +39, Intimidate +31, Jump +7, Listen +34, Move Silently +37, Open Lock +15, Search +12, Spot +37, Tumble +17; Combat Reflexes, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Languages: Common, Halfling, Elven.

Circumvent Barriers (Ex): As a move equivalent action, Marie Sevletaine may apply her wisdom bonus (if any) as a penalty to a creature’s cover bonus to AC against the quickbolt’s attacks that round. This does not reduce the cover bonus to less than zero, nor does it cause the target to be denied her dexterity bonus to AC. This has no effect on targets with total cover.

Dance of Glory (Ex): When dual-wielding a pair of hand crossbows, Marie adds 8 points of charisma bonus as an insight bonus to her AC and 90’ as an insight bonus to the range increment of the hand crossbows she uses. Furthermore, she adds 45’ to the maximum range of her precision-based abilities, such as Sneak Attack and Snapshot. She loses all bonuses of this ability while wearing medium or heavy armor or carrying more than a light load, or is denied her dexterity bonus to AC.

Double Strike (Ex): As a standard action, Marie may make one attack roll at her highest base attack bonus with each hand crossbow she wields. She may target different enemies with each crossbow, but each target beyond the first causes a cumulative -5 penalty to the attack roll.

Fluid Ambidexterity (Ex): When using the full attack option, she may choose to make some or all of her additional attacks granted by feats, spells or a high base attack bonus each round using an off-hand crossbow instead of her primary attack or vice versa.

Ranged Knockback (Ex): Twice per day, at the end of any full attack, Marie may designate one target hit with a bolt from her hand crossbow that round to be subjected to this ability. That character must immediately succeed on a fortitude or reflex save (DC 28 ) or be pushed back an amount of feet equal to half the amount they failed the saving throw by (rounded up to the nearest 5’) as if bull rushed. If the character fails their saving throw by 20 or more, they are also knocked prone. Each of the target’s size categories greater than medium provides the target with a +6 bonus to the save.

Snapshot +2D6 (Ex): Marie deals an additional 2d6 damage on ranged attacks made against targets within 75’. This extra damage only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to a snapshot, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a snapshot.

Sneak Attack +2d6 (Ex): Marie deals an extra +2d6 damage against flat-footed opponents within 75’ or against targets she is flanking. Any creature without a discernable anatomy or that is immune to extra damage from critical hits are immune to sneak attacks.

Unerring Aim (Ex): As a move-equivalent action, Marie may apply her wisdom bonus (if any) as a penalty against a target creature’s armor or natural armor bonus to AC against her attacks that round (she chooses which bonus type when she uses this ability). This does not reduce the AC bonus to less than zero, nor does it ever deny the target their dexterity bonus to AC. Creatures with cover are immune to this ability.

Danse Macabre (Ex): Marie may make up to six five-foot-steps each round in which she makes no other movement, instead of one.

Evasion (Ex): If Marie is exposed to any effect that would allow her to make a reflex saving throw for half damage, she takes no damage with a successful throw.

Halfling Qualities (Ex): +1 racial bonus to saves and an additional +2 morale bonus to saves made against fear effects, +2 bonus on Climb, Jump, Move Silently and Listen, +1 racial bonus to attack rolls with thrown weapons or slings

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Marie may not be flanked except by a rogue of at least eighth level.

Purity of Body (Ex): Marie is immune to all non-magical, non-supernatural diseases .

Slow Fall 30’ (EX) While within arm’s reach of a wall, Marie can use it to slow her descent. She takes damage as if the fall were 30 feet shorter than it actually is.

Still Mind (Ex): Marie gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of enchantment.

Trapfinding (Ex): Marie can find, disarm or bypass traps with a DC of 20 or higher. She can use the Search and Disable Device skills to find and disarm magic traps (DC 25 + Spell Level). If she beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check, she and her party can bypass the trap without triggering or disarming it.

Trap Sense (Ex):Marie gets a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Marie retains her Dexterity bonus to AC even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

Whirl of Wonder (Su): The first round each day that a character is engaged in a battle with Marie, that character must make a will save (DC: 13) or be stunned for that round. Regardless of success or failure, that subject gets a permanent +5 bonus on all future Whirl of Wonder saves; this bonus is cumulative with itself.

Possessions: Flaming Frost Shock Seeking Hand Crossbow +2, Anarchic Axiomatic Hand Crossbow +2, Eyes of the Eagle, Periapt of Wisdom +6, Monk’s Belt, Cloak of Charisa +6 and Resistance +3, Bracers of Armor +8, Gloves of Dexterity +6, Ring of Protection +5, Ring of the Ram (39 charges), Winged Boots, Manual of Quickness of Action +4 (read), Tome of Understanding +4 (read), Tome of Leadership and Influence +4 (read), Heward’s Handy Hoversack, 2 Quiver of Ehlona with 120 bolts, 18 cases of 10 bolts, Peasant’s Outfit, 2270 GP.














Background: The whole idea started back a few years ago when a friend mentioned a character build he had always wanted to try: Fighter 15 / Deepwood Sniper 10 with two hand crossbows. The smile on his face when he explained the build (“Gunslinger!”) was memorable. There were some problems with that though, namely the problems with reloading two hand crossbows, even with a rapid reload feat (at least, I haven’t been able to find anything that would make it work). Besides, a fighter of that style really deserves its own prestige class, don’t you think?

There were three main base classes that I wanted to make this for – the fighter, obviously; the rogue; and the monk (perhaps with zen archery).


Musings/Doubts:

1: Uncanny Reload: Unchanged; necessary for the concept. Perhaps the prevention of AoO should come later?
1: Dance of Glory: Thanks to Tarkahn for giving me a key to fixing this. Instead of adding wis to initiative, wis adds to the range, so I was able to get rid of flexible strike, and thus add a Precise Strike-ish ability. It made everything fit.
2: Circumvent Barriers: Unchanged. It seemed like a pretty neat thing to have, not overpowered, and certainly in flavor for the class.
3: Fluid Ambidexterity: I added an explanation paragraph, and deleted an unnecessary sentence in the first paragraph. If anyone can think of a better way to word it still, I’m all ears.
4: Uncanny Dodge: This really should have been in the first iteration of the class. It is archetypal and just seems right for the class. Adding this also sort of solves a problem with what happens during the surprise round with Whirl of Wonder…makes it a little more believable at least.
5: Snapshot: Because I was able to get rid of flexible strike, I was able to go with a precise strike type of ability instead of ability instead of ranged sneak attack. Unfortunately, none of the established abilities really fit the class (precise strike could work with melee attacks, skirmish added AC which was way too much), and all the good names are already taken (Precise Shot, Perfect Shot, etc.). Anyone have anything better than ‘snapshot’?
6: Double Strike: Knocked down to 6th level, to make room for Snapshot, and a bit clearer.
7: Ranged Knockback: It’s still a bit of a mess… This version has limited daily use, which was necessary, as well as variable knockback distance. I also removed some of the modifiers, which cleans it up a bit. But is the current version clear at all? At all? I know I sometimes have a tendency to write like a 6th grade algebra book. Sorry… Also, I know rounding down is normal, but rounding up actually makes it quite a bit clearer…
8: Whirl of Wonder: I kept it as stunned instead of dazed, but dropped the base 10 for the save. The DC will then usually be in the 8 to 18 range, fully equipped. Still too much?
9: Unerring Shot: It used to reduce dodge bonus at full wisdom bonus, but I disliked that… if it was going to reduce dodging, it really should have interacted more with attacks of opportunity, imo. The impossible shot through the armor is more archetypal for a gunslinger anyway. Of course, armor is also more prevalent and more likely to be high, so it got bumped up a level and the bonus was halved.
10: Danse Macabre: After thinking a while about how this could be broken, I realized that this could trigger Skirmish. While that interaction is certainly in flavor, is it too powerful? Skirmish’s movement requirement was supposed to remove the possibility of using it with a full attack.
Sample Character: I never want to do another CR20 level monk-type stat block again. Ugh. Anyways, the character has a very generous base array (18,17,16,14,12,10) because this is meant in part as troubleshooting, a possible worst-case scenario. The character does have a number of weakness (Low Fort Save + No SR; low HP; almost no melee or grappling ability)… The AC is still obscene, but she’s not invulnerable.

Alternative: One of the things I had thought about was the ability of gunslingers to be able to break locks and open doors with a well-placed shot. I was quite disappointed to see that it’s remarkably difficult, if even possible, to bash a lock with a ranged weapon RAW. Not having room, I simply added Open Lock as a class skill; if one of the abilities has to go, I could strike the skill and make it a class ability. Perhaps also allow sneak attack/snapshot damage, since locks do have an anatomy of sorts…

Alternative: I really like Doublestrike at fifth level, but it’s a bit much getting it as well as Snapshot. Possibly move +1d6 to 4th, Doublestrike to 5th, +2d6 to 9th, Unerring Shot to 10th (with a bit more power, maybe the full wis bonus), and cut fluid ambidexterity for something else?

Adghar
2005-07-20, 09:01 PM
I had wanted to put this in the older version’s topic (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1121046499 )
Fluid Ambidexterity (Ex): A quickbolt is a deadly opponent, no matter which shaft you are looking down. Starting at fourth level, when using the full attack option, she may choose to make some or all of her additional attacks granted by feats, spells or a high base attack bonus each round using an off-hand crossbow instead of her primary attack.

For example: Marie is a LN fourth level quickbolt with a base attack bonus of 14 and the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat. She wields a Holy Hand Crossbow +1 as her primary weapon and an Unholy Hand Crossbow +1 in her other hand. Her high base attack bonus gives her two additional attacks with her primary weapon, while her Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat grants her an additional attack with her offhand weapon, for a total full attack of +13/+8/+3 and + 13/+8. If Marie were faced with a vampire, a generally evil creature, she would still have to make her first offhand attack with her unholy crossbow; but she could make her second off-hand attack (granted by the feat) with the much more effective holy weapon. Conversely, if Marie was faced with an archon, a uniformly good family of outsiders, she would still have to make her first primary attack with the holy weapon, but could make the rest of her attacks with the more effective unholy weapon.


I don't think you've messed up the grammar this time, but perhaps switched around some words. The example helps me understand, I think you are trying to say

"Starting at fourth level, when using the full attack option, she may choose to make some or all of her additional attacks granted by feats, spells or a high base attack bonus each round using a primary attack instead of her off-hand attack."

Or possibly

"Starting at fourth level, when using the full attack option, she may choose to make some or all of her additional attacks granted by feats, spells or a high base attack bonus each round using an off-hand crossbow instead of her primary attack or vice versa."

AdInfinitum
2005-07-20, 09:05 PM
Fixed; thanks! :)

jdrich
2005-07-20, 09:09 PM
First and foremost, it is far too complex. Far, far too complex. As a fighter type, KISS.

Changes:

BAB should be a bit lower. TWF is a prereq, but by the time you get the PrC you're better off using the hand-crossbow one-handed. How about Quickdraw as a prereq? TWF can be taken later. Craft (Weaponsmithing) 13 ranks?!? 13?

1: Uncanny Reload: Unchanged; necessary for the concept. Perhaps the prevention of AoO should come later?

Why not just let them take a tumble check, like everyone else? I'd say get rid of the AoO thing.

1: Dance of Glory: Thanks to Tarkahn for giving me a key to fixing this. Instead of adding wis to initiative, wis adds to the range, so I was able to get rid of flexible strike, and thus add a Precise Strike-ish ability. It made everything fit.

No offense, but this is just seems strange.. Take a look at some bow-based PrCs for better ideas.

2: Circumvent Barriers: Unchanged. It seemed like a pretty neat thing to have, not overpowered, and certainly in flavor for the class.

Seems strange.

3: Fluid Ambidexterity: I added an explanation paragraph, and deleted an unnecessary sentence in the first paragraph. If anyone can think of a better way to word it still, I’m all ears.

Why? No need for it. Make quickdraw a prereq and he can switch hands for free.

4: Uncanny Dodge: This really should have been in the first iteration of the class. It is archetypal and just seems right for the class. Adding this also sort of solves a problem with what happens during the surprise round with Whirl of Wonder…makes it a little more believable at least.

No need for it to be given to the class. If the player is a rogue, he'll already have it. If he's a fighter, he can work for it some other way.

5: Snapshot: Because I was able to get rid of flexible strike, I was able to go with a precise strike type of ability instead of ability instead of ranged sneak attack. Unfortunately, none of the established abilities really fit the class (precise strike could work with melee attacks, skirmish added AC which was way too much), and all the good names are already taken (Precise Shot, Perfect Shot, etc.). Anyone have anything better than ‘snapshot’?

Overpowered. How about good ol' called shot?

6: Double Strike: Knocked down to 6th level, to make room for Snapshot, and a bit clearer.

Doesn't fit into the theme of the game. Any other ability that grants an extra attack can only be used in a full attack action. Perhaps allow the Quickbolt to use Rapid Shot?

7: Ranged Knockback: It’s still a bit of a mess… This version has limited daily use, which was necessary, as well as variable knockback distance. I also removed some of the modifiers, which cleans it up a bit. But is the current version clear at all? At all? I know I sometimes have a tendency to write like a 6th grade algebra book. Sorry… Also, I know rounding down is normal, but rounding up actually makes it quite a bit clearer…

Knockback from a mundane bolt? Surely you Jest...I just don't see it happening. Unless the crossbow was specially crafted, it's still shooting the bolts just as hard. Doesn't work realistically or add any flavor.

8: Whirl of Wonder: I kept it as stunned instead of dazed, but dropped the base 10 for the save. The DC will then usually be in the 8 to 18 range, fully equipped. Still too much?

DC is not good. Always start at base 10. Also, stunning is more of a physical effect than dazed. Stunning fist, etc. Seems strange.

9: Unerring Shot: It used to reduce dodge bonus at full wisdom bonus, but I disliked that… if it was going to reduce dodging, it really should have interacted more with attacks of opportunity, imo. The impossible shot through the armor is more archetypal for a gunslinger anyway. Of course, armor is also more prevalent and more likely to be high, so it got bumped up a level and the bonus was halved.

Seems strange. Why wis? Wis is a monk thing. Maybe INT, but right now you're all over the place.

10: Danse Macabre: After thinking a while about how this could be broken, I realized that this could trigger Skirmish. While that interaction is certainly in flavor, is it too powerful? Skirmish’s movement requirement was supposed to remove the possibility of using it with a full attack.

Seems strange. Why not just say he can make a 10' step instead of a 5' step? Still doesn't really make sense to the class, as the acrobatic prereqs are limited.

Sample Character: I never want to do another CR20 level monk-type stat block again. Ugh. Anyways, the character has a very generous base array (18,17,16,14,12,10) because this is meant in part as troubleshooting, a possible worst-case scenario. The character does have a number of weakness (Low Fort Save + No SR; low HP; almost no melee or grappling ability)… The AC is still obscene, but she’s not invulnerable.

Seems strange.

Alternative: One of the things I had thought about was the ability of gunslingers to be able to break locks and open doors with a well-placed shot. I was quite disappointed to see that it’s remarkably difficult, if even possible, to bash a lock with a ranged weapon RAW. Not having room, I simply added Open Lock as a class skill; if one of the abilities has to go, I could strike the skill and make it a class ability. Perhaps also allow sneak attack/snapshot damage, since locks do have an anatomy of sorts…

That sounds interesting.

The way the class is written, it is grossly overpowered, and very, very mishmashed. I don't mean to be harsh, but you need to cut down on some of the fat and make it into a PrC that someone can say "Yeah, I'm going to take this build," instead of one that offers too complex or unusual bonuses. If you'd like help, I will admit that my hand crossbowman William Tell is probably one of the most fun players I ever made, and he was just a fighter. You need to start with a feat tree, and then think on whether or not you really need a PrC for this type of thing.

I like the style, but it needs more. I'd love to help, if you'd have me.

AdInfinitum
2005-07-20, 09:56 PM
Play nice.



BAB should be a bit lower. TWF is a prereq, but by the time you get the PrC you're better off using the hand-crossbow one-handed. How about Quickdraw as a prereq? TWF can be taken later.
...the entire point of the class is that you're fighting with two hand crossbows. If I changed anything, it would not be that.



Craft (Weaponsmithing) 13 ranks?!? 13?

It's a high-level PrC. That ensures that you can't take it before eleventh level, at which point you would finish the class at 20th level.



1: Dance of Glory: No offense, but this seems strange.. Take a look at some bow-based PrCs for better ideas.

Reasons for why a +10 boost to AC and increased range is seems strange. would be a good thing.
Play nice.




3: Fluid Ambidexterity: Why? No need for it. Make quickdraw a prereq and he can switch hands for free.
So where does it say you can make a free action during a full round action? 5' steps aren't free actions.


4: Uncanny Dodge: No need for it to be given to the class. If the player is a rogue, he'll already have it. If he's a fighter, he can work for it some other way.

The stereotypical gunslinger has this. When's the last time you saw an action hero flat-footed at the start of a battle? The entire reason for this class is to replicate/make fun of that. That's plenty of reason to have it.


5: Snapshot: Overpowered. How about good ol' called shot?

At fifteenth level, after some underwhelming sacrificial feats, is it really that overpowered?


6: Double Strike: Doesn't fit into the theme of the game. Any other ability that grants an extra attack can only be used in a full attack action. Not every ability, but close. I was concerned with this, but you've been the only person who's expressed concern.

Play nice.


8: Whirl of Wonder: DC is stupid. Always start at base 10. Also, stunning is more of a physical effect than dazed. Stunning fist, etc. Doesn't make sense.

1) It doesn't always start at 10. 2) Ever played a mage?


9: Unerring Shot: Still seems strange.. Why wis? Wis is a monk thing. Maybe INT, but right now you're all over the place.

And you're right. It's a monk thing. Monks were one of the classes this was meant for.


10: Danse Macabre: Why not just say he can make a 10' step instead of a 5' step? Still doesn't really make sense to the class, as the acrobatic prereqs are limited.

Play nice.


The way the class is written, it is grossly overpowered, and very, very mishmashed. I don't mean to be harsh, but you need to cut down on some of the fat and make it into a PrC that someone can say "Yeah, I'm going to take this build," instead of one that offers too complex or unusual bonuses. If you'd like help, I will admit that my hand crossbowman William Tell is probably one of the most fun players I ever made, and he was just a fighter.

Play nice.

jdrich
2005-07-20, 10:17 PM
...the entire point of the class is that you're fighting with two hand crossbows.

So have the class give TWF for free with respect to crossbows at first level. No big deal.


It's a high-level PrC. That ensures that you can't take it before eleventh level, at which point you would finish the class at 20th level.

Where in the PrC do you involve weaponsmithing at all? Another thing that seems strange.


Reasons for why a +10 boost to AC and increased range is a 'waste of time' would be a good thing.

+10 boost to AC, for a class feature. That means his base AC is what, 26-ish, before enhancements? That seems overpowered.


How?

Should be INT based at the least, or at least use a different mechanic. Also, you have another ability which is almost the same thing, Unerring Aim.

Play nice.


The stereotypical gunslinger has this.

He can also get it before 10th level, can't he? No need, like I said.


is it really that overpowered?

Yeah.


you've been the only person who's expressed concern.

One of how many, eh?

Ranged Knockback is not an ability cabaple of being given by a class. It's just not physically rational, especially in the case of a spring-loaded crossbow.


1) It doesn't always start at 10.

Abilities of that type start at ten normally; I don't know of any that don't.

Play nice.

Adghar
2005-07-20, 10:37 PM
I feel the need to stand up for Ad Infinitum.




So have the class give TWF for free with respect to crossbows at first level. No big deal.

No, no, this is not a class for quick-drawing hand crossbow wielders. This is a class for dual-wielding hand crossbow wielders to augment their abilities.



Where in the PrC do you involve weaponsmithing at all? Source of quote modified.

"No, add that" "That makes no sense, take it away" "What happened to that requirement?" (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1121046499 )



+10 boost to AC, for a class feature. That means his base AC is what, 26-ish, before enhancements? Source of quote modified.

No offense, no point intended, I just don't understand this. Skipping it and moving on.

No wait, I get it now. Source of quote modified. +10 boost to AC is only if you finish the whole class progression (made it to level 20) AND have focused your stats in charisma (At least 30 for a +10 bonus) otherwise, it's like a CHA version of the monk's bonus, limited by levels in Quickbolt.



Should be INT based at the least, or at least use a different mechanic. Also, you have another ability which is almost the same thing, Unerring Aim.

This would make the statistics "all over the place" as you note later. Why INT? What if the quickbolt is using his wisdom, which is the same stat for will saves, to guide the arrows around a barrier? And how is it the same as Unerring Aim, handling Dex bonuses, a totally different thing from cover bonuses?



Source of quote modified.

I dunno, I don't think I can win this one.



He can also get it before 10th level, can't he? No need, like I said.

What if it's a fighter that doesn't want to burn feats to get it and instead takes a level of quickbolt? Or a monk? And why not, for the sake of flavor? Even if the quickbolt doesn't receive extra bonuses (Shouldn't s/he though? Doesn't it improve to improved uncanny dodge?) it can still be put there for flavor. Doesn't take up too much space and I mentioned other reasons to keep it earlier.




Yeah.
Explain.



One of how many, eh?
Many (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1121046499 )



Ranged Knockback is not an ability cabaple of being given by a class. It's just not physically rational, especially in the case of a spring-loaded crossbow.

First of all, It's D&D. Need I say Magic?

Second of all, couldn't a quickbolt focus his personality to make it stronger?



Abilities of that type start at ten. Source of quote modified.

Abilities of that calibur warrant lower will saves.



Source of quote modified.

And all sorts of other unique buffs. Besides, the stuff that he misses with ranged support help the monk get into combat after everyone else dies (lacking Quickbolt roxzness) and the monk is forced to enter combat.


Source of quote modified..

If you can move 30 feet and make a full attack, you must've had 40 ft. and +6 Dex bonus to begin with, which already is overpowered.



Source of quote modified..

Source of quote response is for modified.

Edit: I knew this would happen. Well, maybe my arguements will include other points.

AdInfinitum
2005-07-20, 10:39 PM
EDIT: Thanks for the support, Adghar. :)






So have the class give TWF for free with respect to crossbows at first level. No big deal.

If it's a choice between a requirement and a gift, it's just classier/a bit more balanced to make it a requirement. The character should have had to have been experimenting with two weapons before taking the class anyway.




Where in the PrC do you involve weaponsmithing at all?


It was a stop-gap, a compromise. And for someone so focused on a certain set of weapons, being able to repair them is certainly a reasonable requirement.

Play nice.


Should be INT based at the least, or at least use a different mechanic. Also, you have another ability which is almost the same thing, Unerring Aim.
Yes, one at the beginning and one at the end, neither of which is strictly better than the other, but the later one is much more useful. Meant to show growth. And wisdom is much better for this; it's more intuition based than intelligence.

Play nice.


He can also get it before 10th level, can't he? No need, like I said.

Not nescessarily. I can see him/her growing into the ability as he starts to understand the style.

Play nice.


One of how many, eh? Check the other topic.


Ranged Knockback is not an ability cabaple of being given by a class. It's just not physically rational, especially in the case of a spring-loaded crossbow.

I totally agree. If you read the whole post, you'd see that this was meant to be half-humorous. Perhaps I wasn't clear before; I thought things like Uncanny Reload (and the italicized text) would make it clear. This is supposed to skewer many of the cliches of gun-wielding characters in our culture; no gun can actually throw it's target back 10' without throwing the wielder back 10 feet too.



Abilities of that type start at ten.
Well, this one is as good as it needs to be. Think of it as dc 10 + half class level + Charisma modifier - 10 (actually, that's exactly what it is, with the nerf from the first version). Play nice.

Play nice.

bingo_bob
2005-07-20, 10:58 PM
+10 boost to AC, for a class feature. That means his base AC is what, 26-ish, before enhancements? No, that's not overpowered.

I dunno. Ask the duelist PrC. And that's sort of not what I was responding to. You just said it was a waste of time, which usually means worthless.

Okay, seeing as I may be the only person who fully understands this, I'll throw my two cp in. Here's a direct copy from the SRD of that particular ability:


Canny Defense (Ex): When not wearing armor or using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

The way this works is, if at say, 3rd level of the PrC, and she had an intelligence bonus of +3, she'd be able to add all of that to her AC. However, is she had a bonus of say, +4, she'd only be able to add 3 still. Now, on the other hand, let's take a 10th level duelist, with an INT bonus of +4. She can only add that +4, nothing more, she gets no more bonuses for that particular class feature. Thank you.

jdrich
2005-07-20, 11:25 PM
Reasons for why a +10 boost to AC and increased range is a 'waste of time' would be a good thing.

I wasn't mistaking the ability, just following Ad's lead.

Also, having it be int-based is more reasonable. This is supposed to be a cunning class, after all.

Gorbash Kazdar
2005-07-20, 11:59 PM
Comrade Gorby: Okay, folks, play nice. This thread is already starting to get flame-ish, and I don't want to lock it.

Jonathan, several of your comments were, frankly, rude. Constructive criticism is one thing, but being demeaning or insulting is not constructive. Also, using abbreviations that include profanity is not kosher, just as actually using the profanity isn't

Ad Infinitum, some of your reponses were out of proportion to what inspired them, plus telling someone "did you read it? try again" or a variation thereof is a BIG no-no on this forum.

I went through and cleared out the more flame-ish bits on both sides, but for this thread is on probabation - any more of this, and it gets locked. For both sides, remember that:

A) Just because something doesn't fit your style of play doesn't make it automatically bad or wrong; you're free to poke holes in the design and play devil's advocate, but calling something retarded isn't going to fly. Also, if you make a critique, try to explain in detail your point of view, and try to offer a suggestion; if something is unclear to you, don't just say it doesn't make sense, ask for a clarification. If the person you're critiquing doesn't take a specific piece of advice, remember that in the end it's that designer's work, and their call.

B) If you do post something here and ask for criticism, expect some of it to be very pointed. If some critique gets you a bit angry (understandable, even when its constructive, when you've spent a long time working on something), take five to cool off and really think over whether the critiquer has a good point, or if you simply need to clarify your concept. You don't have to take every piece of advice, but try and have a reason for why you're passing on certain ones.

Regardless, be as polite as you possibly can be when posting. If you're critiquing, put yourself in the designer's shoes and think about how you're coming across to someone who probably spent a fair bit of time working on something. If you're responding to criticism, remember that the other poster is more than likely sincerely trying to help.

jdrich
2005-07-21, 12:45 AM
I apologize. I am fairly (completely) new to zee boards, so it is good to know what is and isn't out of bounds. Thank you, Gorbash.

Ad Infinitum, would you like to continue discussion or simply agree to disagree?

MrNexx
2005-07-21, 02:15 AM
Requirements: To qualify to become a quickbolt, a character must fulfill all the following criteria:

Base Attack Bonus: +7
Skills: Spot 5 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 13 ranks
Feats: Rapid Reload [hand crossbow], Two Weapon Fighting

Personally, I would include Quick Draw in addition to TWF; it may be designed around the "two-guns" style, but I think quick-draw is just as necessary for the gunslinger flavor (which tastes somewhat like stale Malboros, bad beer, and overcooked jerky ;)).

Also, I take it your campaign uses Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) as being part of Craft (Weaponsmithing)? I don't know if this is the standard, but the pedant in me says that these are very different skills, that they should be separate, and that Bowyer/Fletcher works better than Weaponsmithing.

Lastly, no Spot requirement? I think that would make sense to require.

EDIT: Oh, son of a monkey... there is a spot requirement there, isn't there?


Class Skills: The quickbolt’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Languages (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill points per level: (6 + Int modifier)

Why Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering? I can see most of the others(though Open Lock is iffy), but that one confuses me.


For each 1 point of wisdom bonus (if any) per quickbolt class level, she adds 10’ as an insight bonus to the range increment of the hand crossbows she uses. Furthermore, for each 10’ added this way, she adds 5’ to the maximum range of her precision-based abilities, such as Sneak Attack or Snapshot.

FWIW, I understand the use of Wisdom, here; not only as a representative of his own will, but also because of that stat's roll in perception (i.e. Spot checks).


Circumvent Barriers (Ex): To a quickbolt, “Take cover!” is just a pleasant way of saying “Shoot me in an overly dramatic way!” Beginning at second level, as a move equivalent action, a quickbolt may apply her wisdom modifier (if positive)

Call this a wisdom bonus; means the same thing, and makes it more concise.


Snapshot(Ex): (snip)

At 5th level, a quickbolt gains the ability to swiftly strike vital systems with a hand crossbow, gaining an extra 1d6 damage added to her normal damage roll.

I would change the damage increase from a flat d6 to additional dice on par with a hand crossbow. I know the d6 are more usual in these abilities, but its just a flavor thing to me.



Double Strike (Ex): (snip)

As a standard action, a sixth level quickbolt may make one attack roll at her highest base attack bonus with each hand crossbow she wields. A quickbolt may target different enemies with each crossbow, but each target beyond the first causes a cumulative -5 penalty to the attack roll.

Each target beyond the first? Are you assuming a Marlith or thri-kreen quickbolt?


Ranged Knockback (Ex): Twice per day, at the end of any full attack, a quickbolt may designate one target hit with a bolt from her hand crossbow to be subjected to this ability. That character must immediately succeed on a fortitude save (DC 10 + the quickbolt’s class level + the quickbolt’s Charisma modifier) or be pushed back an amount of feet equal to half the amount they failed the saving throw by (rounded up to the nearest 5’) as if bull rushed. If the character fails their saving throw by 20 or more, they are also knocked prone. Each of the target’s size categories greater than medium provides the target with a +6 bonus to the save.

First of all, I would change it to a variable number of times per day, based on their Charisma... 1 + Charisma bonus. Just a flavor thing.

Secondly, I would change the "half the number they failed the saving throw by" to an easier to deal with amount; perhaps a number of 5' spaces equal to the Quickbolt's Charisma modifier?

And, lastly, I would allow people to use either a Reflex or Fortitude save for this attack; Reflex representing rolling with the blow enough to avoid the knockback. Of course, since the ability is based on force of Charisma, you might also go with a Will save; all of them are possible, here, but I see fortitude as being the worst choice of the three.



Whirl of Wonder (Su):
The first round each day that a character is engaged in a battle with a quickbolt, that character must make a will save (DC: Half the quickbolt’s class level, rounded down + the quickbolt’s Charisma modifier) or be stunned for that round. Regardless of success or failure, that subject gets a permanent +5 bonus on all future Whirl of Wonder saves; this bonus is cumulative with itself.

Did you leave out the initial 10 in the DC?



Unerring Aim (Ex):
As a move-equivalent action, a ninth-level quickbolt may apply half her wisdom modifier (if positive), rounded down, as a penalty against a target creature’s armor bonus to AC against the quickbolt’s ranged attacks that round. This does not reduce the armor bonus to less than zero, nor does it ever deny the target their dexterity bonus to AC. Creatures with cover are immune to this ability.

Since it costs them a move-equivalent action (thereby denying them the benefits of a full-attack action), I would make it all of their Wisdom modifier. It's capped at their armor bonus anyway, so its not going to get too out of hand.

However, what about Natural Armor bonuses? Are these included in a quickbolt's unerring aim? If they are, you need to specifically mention them.


Danse Macabre (Ex):
At tenth-level, the number of five foot steps a quickbolt may take each round is equal to her dexterity bonus (if positive), up to a total distance of (her normal speed - 10) feet.

A bonus is always positive. A modifier is positive or negative.

Overall, I like the look of the class; it would seem best in a campaign where you mostly dealt with humanoid foes but, then, isn't that the soul of the Western?

EDIT: Spelling error, and needed to put a quote box all the way around Danse Macabre.

AdInfinitum
2005-07-21, 02:55 AM
Lastly, no Spot requirement? I think that would make sense to require.

Thank you, Mr.Nexx. :) I really needed that. It helped.




Sorry, Jonathan. I overreacted, badly. I've been sitting here for an hour trying to think of some variation on "I knew better" or "had high hopes" that wasn't totally irrelevant, but, well...

I would really like your forgiveness, because I sure as heck am not going to be forgiving myself any time soon.

As to your question...I think I might be up for a little more discussion. I'm nowhere near as attached to it anymore; my own temper blew it for me...there might be some things that we will simply disagree on, but I know you can probably help me too.

For instance, if you do have a link to the SRD or an excerpt about quick draws + full attack, I would love the link to it. After someone mentioned something like that in the other topic, I reread the PHB and went hunting the SRD, and couldn't find anything one way or the other. All my DM was able to give me was a shrug and a guess... It would be nice to finally know the answer, one way or another.

MrNexx
2005-07-21, 03:30 AM
Thank you, Mr.Nexx. :) I really needed that. It helped.


You're welcome... though I'm honestly trying to comment on what I see as a neat class.

jdrich
2005-07-21, 01:02 PM
Quick Draw [General]
Prerequisite

Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit

You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.

A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Normal

Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
Special

A fighter may select Quick Draw as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Draw or Sheathe a Weapon

Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.

If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.

Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.

This means that you can draw two weapons as a free action, without provoking an AOO. Because you can also drop them as a free action, I see no reason why you wouldn't be allowed to switch them as a free action (Drop both, and catch them in mid-air). If you're DM made a stink, I'm sure a Switch Item feat would be easy to draw up, having TWF and Quick Draw as prereqs.


Full-Round Action

A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions (see below).

There's your free action surity.

My suggestion would be in the style of Master Thrower, Reaping Mauler, and most other PrCs that make use of a particular attack style, make the Quickbolt (I like Sharpshooter or Marksman better, but YMMV) a five-level PrC available at level 6 to fighters. Fighters have five feats at level six, so this PrC should require about that many. Any other character without levels in Fighter, will need a few more levels to gain the feats necessary. Here's a brainstormed list:

*Two-Weapon Fighting
*Quick Draw
*Rapid Reload [Hand Crossbow]
Deft Hands (Not a sure thing, but it makes sense if he is drawing a hidden weapon)
Improved Initiative
Alertness (To get the jump on his foes)
*Point Blank Shot
*Weapon Focus [Hand Crossbow]

The Asterisked feats are ones that I think are completely necessary, giving you five feats.

Make the BAB requirement +5, and I would say if you're going to have ranks in spot be a requirement (a good idea), come up with some spot-related rolls for advantage, and drop the Wisdom modifier stuff.

For example, rename Circumvent Barriers something like "Crack Shot" and make it a spot check against the opponents modified AC. If you make the check, they don't gain any benefit from concealment for that round. It seems powerful at first, but you also have a greater chance to fail your check. Make the check be usable once per round per level of Sharpshooter. So a 5th level Sharpshooter would be able to use "Crack Shot" on five enemies with cover, instead of just one.

Make Unerring Shot (Rename it Dead-eye?) work in the same way, except if the check succeeds they are also flat-footed. Make it a move-equivalent action useable only once per round, however, on one target.

Instead of Dance of Glory, just give them Deflect Arrows for free, and make it useable even if they are holding two crossbows:


Deflect Arrows [General]
Prerequisites

Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit

You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flatfooted.

Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn’t count as an action. Unusually massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can’t be deflected.

This is a lot more simple, and it's also a feat already, so that helps.

Make Uncanny Reload into a feat, like "Improved Rapid Reload", and give it to them for free at first level.

I guess Uncanny dodge fits, but I still think that it's a bit akward. Maybe Alertness would be better?

Fluid Ambidexterity is made redundant by quick draw and TWF, so that's a non-issue.

I'm not sure how your DM does games, but I make most snapshot-style abilities instead into auto-threats (sneak attacks are always an auto-threat, but the extra damage works differently). For example, change Snapshot into something like "Deadly Shot" and have it make any attack used in conjunction with Deadeye an automatic threat, or instead just replace it with Improved Critical [Hand Crossbow].

Drop double strike, and allow the Sharpshooter to use Rapid Shot in conjunction with her hand crossbow. Less of a hassle that way.

Ranged Knockback doesn't quite fit. There are item enchantments that allow you to do that. It's too powerful, I think.

Replace Whirl of Wonder with Improved Feint. Making them flat-footed is just as good.

Drop Danse Macabre, and allow them to take a 10 on any tumble check. About the same ability.

I'll come up with a table later and we can compare notes. I like the INT-based sharpshooter better than a WIS-based sharpshooter, but if you involve the Spot skill, it's just as good.

Rigeld
2005-07-21, 02:54 PM
Double Strike (Ex): As a quickbolt progresses into the higher levels, she gradually realizes that only attacking once is a little bit silly. She has a perfectly good weapon in a perfectly good hand that’s not doing anything at that moment, and honestly, aiming isn’t much of a problem for a high-level quickbolt, now is it.

As a standard action, a sixth level quickbolt may make one attack roll at her highest base attack bonus with each hand crossbow she wields. A quickbolt may target different enemies with each crossbow, but each target beyond the first causes a cumulative -5 penalty to the attack roll.

I brought this up in the last thread, but why would a Quickbolt ever do this? You can already "split" your full attack against as many opponents as you wish, so all youre ever doing is losing attacks.

AdInfinitum
2005-07-21, 04:12 PM
Personally, I would include Quick Draw in addition to TWF; it may be designed around the "two-guns" style, but I think quick-draw is just as necessary for the gunslinger flavor.Most classes are also going to have to burn a feat on EWP (Hand Crossbow), so I had wanted to keep the feats part of the req's lower. If most classes had to spend all four feats before level 10 on the req's...there still wouldn't be any cookie-cutter quickbolts, because it's so open. You're right. Quick draw is in.



Also, I take it your campaign uses Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) as being part of Craft (Weaponsmithing)? I don't know if this is the standard, but the pedant in me says that these are very different skills, that they should be separate, and that Bowyer/Fletcher works better than Weaponsmithing.Actually, it's because bowyer/fletcher is more concerned with actual bows and arrows, and the PHB lists Weaponsmithing as the appropriate craft skill for crossbows, instead of Bowmaking for bows and arrows.


Why Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering? I can see most of the others(though Open Lock is iffy), but that one confuses me.One of the alternatives has the reasoning for open lock, but the Arch and Eng is because some gunslingers always have this uncanny knack for being able to find the perfect place to hide or the perfect path to take, even if they've never been in the building before.


Call this a wisdom bonus; means the same thing, and makes it more concise. Done.


I would change the damage increase from a flat d6 to additional dice on par with a hand crossbow. I know the d6 are more usual in these abilities, but its just a flavor thing to me. D6's are also used because of the difference between damage dies of small, medium and large versions of the weapon. If you want to tie the hand-crossbow dice in, you have to make it more wordy, a little less clean, and I've been trying to cut wordiness where I could.



Each target beyond the first? Are you assuming a Marlith or thri-kreen quickbolt? No, just preparing for it.


First of all, I would change it to a variable number of times per day, based on their Charisma... 1 + Charisma bonus. Just a flavor thing. There are so many variables as it is.. If I can reduce the rest of the ability, I've been wanting to make that change.


Secondly, I would change the "half the number they failed the saving throw by" to an easier to deal with amount; perhaps a number of 5' spaces equal to the Quickbolt's Charisma modifier?...there is a scene in Once Upon a Time in Mexico where a single shot knocks this guy 40' into the air. Making it always the charisma modifier would make every ranged knockback exactly like that...

I had wanted it to knock the opponent back to one of three conclusions: 5', 10', or 10' and knocked down. Anything longer than that is exceedingly rare outside of anime, and that would probably be a different class entirely. And if I made it static to charisma modifiers, there would be a chance that they would almost always get knocked down. That's simply too strong...


And, lastly, I would allow people to use either a Reflex or Fortitude save for this attack; Reflex representing rolling with the blow enough to avoid the knockback. Of course, since the ability is based on force of Charisma, you might also go with a Will save; all of them are possible, here, but I see fortitude as being the worst choice of the three. I hadn't thought of multiple saves. It's a really good idea.


Did you leave out the initial 10 in the DC? No, it's there, but there's also a -10 modifier. :)


However, what about Natural Armor bonuses? Are these included in a quickbolt's unerring aim? If they are, you need to specifically mention them.
Actually, I had been thinking only armor bonuses, but your right, natural armor should be affected too...











There's your free action surity.Thank you! That does help. But...


This means that you can draw two weapons as a free action, without provoking an AOO. Because you can also drop them as a free action, I see no reason why you wouldn't be allowed to switch them as a free action (Drop both, and catch them in mid-air). Unfortunately, I do. You're still going to have to account for gravity. If you're going to catch them in midair, you're either going to have to throw them upwards, in order to be able to pluck them easily, or you're simply going to drop them, in which case you're going to have to work a lot harder at catching them. You can try it your self, with something along the lines of two 500-page paperback books. The difference between our reflexes and D&D character reflexes can be attributed to not having to deal with the handle and the trigger. Maybe a swift action, but not a free one.

Of course, I could be totally off-base with this...


My suggestion would be in the style of Master Thrower, Reaping Mauler, and most other PrCs that make use of a particular attack style, make the Quickbolt (I like Sharpshooter or Marksman better, but YMMV) a five-level PrC available at level 6 to fighters. Fighters have five feats at level six, so this PrC should require about that many. Any other character without levels in Fighter, will need a few more levels to gain the feats necessary. Here's a brainstormed list:

*Two-Weapon Fighting
*Quick Draw
*Rapid Reload [Hand Crossbow]
Deft Hands (Not a sure thing, but it makes sense if he is drawing a hidden weapon)
Improved Initiative
Alertness (To get the jump on his foes)
*Point Blank Shot
*Weapon Focus [Hand Crossbow]

The Asterisked feats are ones that I think are completely necessary, giving you five feats.

Make the BAB requirement +5, and I would say if you're going to have ranks in spot be a requirement (a good idea), come up with some spot-related rolls for advantage, and drop the Wisdom modifier stuff.


If this really needs to be streamlined, I'd actually drop the dex modifier things first. It could be done [Dance of Glory could add Wis to attack (maybe cha to range), and Danse Macabre would be dropped, like you want] and the flavor of the class could still be kept. The intuition is a major building block of both the class and the archtype.


Make Unerring Shot (Rename it Dead-eye?) work in the same way, except if the check succeeds they are also flat-footed. Make it a move-equivalent action useable only once per round, however, on one target.There is no way I'm going to make this class unavailable to rogues, and no way I'm giving that ability to a rogue either.


Instead of Dance of Glory, just give them Deflect Arrows for free, and make it useable even if they are holding two crossbows: The range increment of a hand crossbow is 30', which is unnaceptable for a class like this. And I did want to increase SA range, for the same reason. That's the most important part of Dance of Glory.


This is a lot more simple, and it's also a feat already, so that helps.
Make Uncanny Reload into a feat, like "Improved Rapid Reload", and give it to them for free at first level.

I guess Uncanny dodge fits, but I still think that it's a bit akward. Maybe Alertness would be better?

Drop double strike, and allow the Sharpshooter to use Rapid Shot in conjunction with her hand crossbow. Less of a hassle that way. If I can avoid just pasting feats onto people that take the class, I'm going to try. It just becomes some subschool of fighter then, with no reason to make it a prestige class.


I'm not sure how your DM does games, but I make most snapshot-style abilities instead into auto-threats (sneak attacks are always an auto-threat, but the extra damage works differently). For example, change Snapshot into something like "Deadly Shot" and have it make any attack used in conjunction with Deadeye an automatic threat, or instead just replace it with Improved Critical [Hand Crossbow].
That variant is extremely unusual (and what does your DM have against rogues?)...but the crit thing is something to think about. I might have shied away from it because it gets too close to Deepwood Sniper from MotW.


Replace Whirl of Wonder with Improved Feint. Making them flat-footed is just as good.
Flavorwise, I had wanted it to not be a conscious thing. It also helps with the PrC background.


Drop Danse Macabre, and allow them to take a 10 on any tumble check. About the same ability. You're going to have to explain what you mean here. They seem quite different.


















I brought this up in the last thread, but why would a Quickbolt ever do this? You can already "split" your full attack against as many opponents as you wish, so all youre ever doing is losing attacks.

Because this is a standard action instead of a full round action. You usually only get the extra attacks if you use a full round attack.

Hzurr
2005-07-21, 04:33 PM
.

My suggestion would be in the style of Master Thrower, Reaping Mauler, and most other PrCs that make use of a particular attack style, make the Quickbolt (I like Sharpshooter or Marksman better, but YMMV) a five-level PrC available at level 6 to fighters. Fighters have five feats at level six, so this PrC should require about that many. Any other character without levels in Fighter, will need a few more levels to gain the feats necessary. Here's a brainstormed list:

*Two-Weapon Fighting
*Quick Draw
*Rapid Reload [Hand Crossbow]
Deft Hands (Not a sure thing, but it makes sense if he is drawing a hidden weapon)
Improved Initiative
Alertness (To get the jump on his foes)
*Point Blank Shot
*Weapon Focus [Hand Crossbow]

The Asterisked feats are ones that I think are completely necessary, giving you five feats.

Make the BAB requirement +5, and I would say if you're going to have ranks in spot be a requirement (a good idea), *come up with some spot-related rolls for advantage, and drop the Wisdom modifier stuff.


Oooh...5 is too many. What if a non-human, non-fighter wanted to go into it? At lvl 10, a rogue elf would have only 4 feats (1,3,6,9). I would say 3 feats, and keep the BAB at +7. This way, fighter types could get into it early, but rogues or bards (both of whom I can see going for this class) could still get it at lvl 10, and take the progression all the way up to 20. Also, I believe that those two classes also get proficiecy with Hand-crossbows, where the fighter types don't, so it would actually take a fighter 1 more feat to get into this class, so that balances out.


Aside from that, I agree with most of what Jonathan said (I'll get to where we differ in a moment). Going with his suggestions will remove a bit of the flavor, but it does streamline things more (always a plus).


Keep knockback. I don't think it's overpowered (Compaire this to other powers at this level. Failing a save, and only getting knocked back a few feet is getting off easy)

For doublestrike, I might reword it, but I'd keep the ability.

StarWarz2
2005-07-21, 06:58 PM
I brought this up in the last thread, but why would a Quickbolt ever do this? You can already "split" your full attack against as many opponents as you wish, so all youre ever doing is losing attacks.

Other than the penalty against additional targets (and being able to split the targets), multiple attack roles, and applying to ranged weapons only, this ability is the same as Dual Strike from p. 108 of Complete Adventurer. Personally, I see it as a viable ranged version of an existing feat. And it's likely to end up as a ranged feat IMC.

Suggestion for the Double Strike ability. Rather than making the -5 cumulative penalty only for the attack rolls against the additional target, how about making it for all attack rolls made using the ability? That way, even the two armed people aren't going to be too interested in splitting the attacks across multiple targets unless absolutely necessary. Sure, that Thr-kreen could fire at 4 targets, but all four shots will be at a -15 to hit. Possible, but it better be awfully important to take that kind of penalty.

jdrich
2005-07-21, 07:40 PM
That variant is extremely unusual (and what does your DM have against rogues?)

My DM has nothing against rogues. Instead of getting +1D6 for sneak attack, the crit mod on thier weapon simply increases by one.

So a level 20 rogue has a crit mod of 11 on his dagger, but only for sneak attacks.

AdInfinitum
2005-07-21, 07:55 PM
So a level 20 rogue has a crit mod of 11 on his dagger, but only for sneak attacks.

...That's actually really cool. Makes the game go much faster too, I would assume; not as much dice rolling...



Suggestion for the Double Strike ability. Rather than making the -5 cumulative penalty only for the attack rolls against the additional target, how about making it for all attack rolls made using the ability? That way, even the two armed people aren't going to be too interested in splitting the attacks across multiple targets unless absolutely necessary. Sure, that Thr-kreen could fire at 4 targets, but all four shots will be at a -15 to hit. Possible, but it better be awfully important to take that kind of penalty.

Since they only make one attack roll, it already is.

Rigeld
2005-07-24, 06:21 PM
Since they only make one attack roll, it already is.

So its Manyshot with the ability to split targets? Thats kinda cool..

/shrug I think Manyshot is worthless tho, and I still think this would rarely get used, in favor of full attacks, since you only get one Standard action every round no matter what. I like the class other than that tho, good job.

StarWarz2
2005-07-25, 06:53 PM
Since they only make one attack roll, it already is.

Eh, that's not what I got from reading (emphasis mine):


Double Strike (Ex): As a quickbolt progresses into the higher levels, she gradually realizes that only attacking once is a little bit silly. She has a perfectly good weapon in a perfectly good hand that’s not doing anything at that moment, and honestly, aiming isn’t much of a problem for a high-level quickbolt, now is it.

As a standard action, a sixth level quickbolt may make one attack roll at her highest base attack bonus with each hand crossbow she wields. A quickbolt may target different enemies with each crossbow, but each target beyond the first causes a cumulative -5 penalty to the attack roll.

The wording here implies that each crossbow makes a separate attack roll. That's why I suggested the modification. If it's meant to work like the Dual Strike feat (both attacks use the same roll and hit/miss together), then the wording should be changed to make this crystal clear.

Otherwise, I like the idea, and have already stolen it to use w/ my parties. :) They just don't know it yet.

AdInfinitum
2005-07-25, 09:45 PM
Glad I could help ;D , and thanks for your help as well. Yeah, you're right. That wording's particularly bad.

Giant Legume
2007-05-16, 03:51 PM
The class is awesome, but the tables need some work so they are legible.