Who is the more powerful?

[petersohn]

I was wondering who is more powerful: Xykon or Redcloak?

Given that RC has Xykon's phylactery, it is obvious that he has power over him. He is also superior as a leader.

But in terms of challenge rating, who is stronger? Xykon seems to be really badass, but also every time we see RC in combat, he also has some nice tricks up his sleeve. And what about the MitD? We know that it can easily throw Miko out of the window with a single touch, but we didn't really see it fighting.

[Green Bean]

Xykon's definitely the more powerful, CR-wise. IIRC, Xykon's 4 or 5 levels higher, and that's not even counting the lich template. Sadly, no one knows anything about the MitD's, except that it apparently has a very high Strength score.

[Querzis]

I was wondering who is more powerful: Xykon or Redcloak?

Given that RC has Xykon's phylactery, it is obvious that he has power over him. He is also superior as a leader.

But in terms of challenge rating, who is stronger? Xykon seems to be really badass, but also every time we see RC in combat, he also has some nice tricks up his sleeve. And what about the MitD? We know that it can easily throw Miko out of the window with a single touch, but we didn't really see it fighting.

Xykon is epic level. Redcloak is probably around level 17. I thought it was made quite obvious from the very start that Xykon is much more powerfull then Redcloak even if you havent read Start of Darkness and even if you dont know anything about D&D. As for the MiTD, nobody know what it is but it seems quite obvious that hes an epic level monster and he probably got around 100 strength (when you send someone flying a mile away with you lighest hit you're really that strong).

[Silverraptor]

Xykon, definatley Xykon. He's been on the world 4 times longer than Redcloak. Alot more time to gain levels.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Given that RC has Xykon's phylactery, it is obvious that he has power over him. He is also superior as a leader.


Read SoD. I haven't myself, but I click on enough spoilers to know that Xykon has power over Redcloak. As for superior leadership...Xykon just doesn't care enough to lead. Redcloak's doing the job that nobody else wanted. Xykon's own method of leadership seems to be fairly effective: if they disagree or ask for too much, kill them, reanimate them, and have them do your bidding. In fact, that might work even if they don't disagree with you.

[Volkov]

Red Cloak might just be epic level, but the chances of this are very small. He is in my eyes at best, level 20, most likely seventeen or eighteen.

Xykon is known to be an epic level Sorcerer, one powerful enough to beat a Druid and a Wizard of Soon's level fairly easily as a Lich. Although Xykon may have gotten the drop on Dorukan due to his vastly superior hit point count, spells per day and spontaneous casting, and Lirian because of his still superior hit point count and the fact that he had red cloak with him.

Although Red cloak is one of those few clerics who completely forgoes heavy armor and weapons and trusts more in the magic of his god.

[David Argall]

Redcloak is a stud, but he is simply not in Xykon's league. He is just a lackey, a minion in comparison. Redcloak is 16th level, maybe 17th if he has gained a level after the battle. Xykon is 21st, minimum [tho unlikely to be much higher]. Redcloak is beaten up by Miko. Xykon takes her out in a round.

[Zevox]

Where are people getting this idea that Redcloak is level 17+? We've never seen him do anything that pegs him as definitely above level 15. And the only reason we can even say he's that high is his casting of Extended Summon Monster VII (the only 8th-level spell we've ever seen him use) and his statement that his Blade Barrier spell does 15d6 damage during the Battle of Azure City. He's never done anything to indicate he's level 17+.

Anyway, Xykon is far and away more powerful than Redcloak, in every sense. He's epic level, Redcloak is only 15+. And Redcloak's possession of Xykon's phylactery means nothing. Read Start of Darkness for why. Redcloak is entirely under Xykon's thumb at this point.

Zevox

[notanel02]

despite the fact that Xykon can beat Redcloak in Combat/spell-shooting,
but I'm sure that somehow even Redcloak stands SOME SORT OF advantage, like these potential ones:

1). he's a very smart goblin, Despite Xykon's effectively psychopathic method,manipulative skills, and incomparable power, he can probably think through a plan to take Xykon down, or at least psychologically get some control of his actions WITHOUT making it suicidal.


NOTE: IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO READ A LONG THEORY, IGNORE THOUGHT NO.2 (IT IS ALMOST OUT OF SUBJECT ANYWAY)

2). Even IF Xykon and Redcloak would fight to the death,most of the money and the odds WILL be on Xykon's favor will win and kill RC with no mercy, but then there's the possibility of the plot going like this:
Redcloak is dead, Xykon Can't use the gates to "Control" the Snarl as RC told him, somehow try a way to do it without Redcloak, thus screwing up and releasing the snarl, destroying the OOTS world, and the gods build (another) new world, and the dark one will get a part of making it, as redcloak explained, so in a point of view, The Dark One and all new world Goblin kind will profit from it.
Now can you Tell me, is that not what Redcloak and "TDO" wanted in the 1st place? (if you don't believe me, check the OOTS Start of Darkness book page 48-panels 4~7).

so if you count real long term conditional success, then redcloak could win.

P.S. Redcloak isn't a fool, he wouldn't be crazy and senseless enough to go "1 on 1 battle" with Xykon without a solution to truly eliminate him, he knows SOOO much better than that.

[Zevox]

1). he's a very smart goblin, Despite Xykon's effectively psychopathic method,manipulative skills, and incomparable power, he can probably think through a plan to take Xykon down, or at least psychologically get some control of his actions WITHOUT making it suicidal.
Doubt it. Xykon has absolutely nothing he cares about other than his own existence, and he's shown before that he doesn't consider his phylactery important enough for Redcloak threatening/destroying that to make any difference to him. Given that, manipulation of him is impossible, unless through superior force. Which Redcloak decidedly does not possess.



NOTE: IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO READ A LONG THEORY, IGNORE THOUGHT NO.2 (IT IS ALMOST OUT OF SUBJECT ANYWAY)
...how is your theory long? Its barely more than a paragraph.


Now can you Tell me, is that not what Redcloak and "TDO" wanted in the 1st place? (if you don't believe me, check the OOTS Start of Darkness book page 48-panels 4~7).
No, that isn't what they want in the first place. That's their one consolation should things go horribly, horribly wrong. Neither of them actually wishes for the destruction of the current world - that would mean the destruction of the current Goblin race, too. They just know that, should that happen, at least the next Goblin race in the next world will have it better than the current one does.


P.S. Redcloak isn't a fool, he wouldn't be crazy and senseless enough to go "1 on 1 battle" with Xykon, he knows SOOO much better than that.
Quite true. But not what the question of the thread was. The OP asked which of the pair is more powerful. The answer to that is Xykon, plain and simple. Both in pure combat ability and in their relationship.

Zevox

[notanel02]

well if wish to think of it in that point of view then: Yes, Xykon is obviously more powerful without a doubt.:smalleek:

[Salt_Crow]

Xykon can definitely cast epic spells which sets his minimum CR at 23 while Redcloak, as some people pointed out, is yet to display the level of power anywhere near Xykon's.

If anyone want to know more about Redcloak-Xykon power balance then I strongly recommend that you read Start of Darkness. It's definitely worth the money (and waiting if you're ordering overseas). :smallsmile:

[Porthos]

One thing about the (inevitable?) fallout between Xykon and Redcloak...

(slight SoD spoilers)

Xykon has taken certain.... precautions... in case Redcloak should ever betray him. And a fairly effective one, all things considered.

As for the psychological stuff mentioned earlier, without going into the details about Xykon's holds (that are explained in SoD) over Redcloak, I would argue that a lot of the character devlopment of Redcloak past Comic #451 is to show that Redcloak is starting to finally get out from under Xykon's thumb.

What it will take for the two to have a falling out (if they ever do) should be interesting to see.

[Mr. Pin]

If redcloak would get some armor and a weapon, and went crazy with the buffs beforehand, he'd stand a very good chance- especially if he broke out the turn/rebuke undead. Sure, Xykon has +4 turning resistance, but I bet redcloak still stands a decent chance there. However, if our man Redcloak sticks to his pattern and just slings spells at him, he's screwed, plain and simple; a cleric simply cannot outspell a sorcerer of equal level to him but with d12 hit dice, and Xykon is almost certainly a few levels higher. Clerics do have certain advantages, though, especially when it comes to undead.

[derfenrirwolv]

Xykon. He's higher level for starters. On top of that, he passed the epic threshold. in D&D theres far more difference between a level 21 and a 19 than there is between a 14 and a 12.

On top of that, he's a sorcerer. He casts arcane spells, which are generaly more powerful than divine ones. A clerics better physical attacks and armor are pretty irrelevant at that level.

There's some debate on this, but i believe that Xykons soul is in his body untill his body is destroyed. Just crushing the phylactery wouldn't do anything unless he were already dead, or you were about to kill him.

[Mr. Pin]

Where are people getting this idea that Redcloak is level 17+? We've never seen him do anything that pegs him as definitely above level 15.

Anyway, Xykon is far and away more powerful than Redcloak, in every sense. He's epic level, Redcloak is only 15+.

Zevox

If I may quote Haley Starshine: "Redcloak's probably 18th level". Yes, Redcloak's "only" 15+, but that "+" could be up to +5, in my view.

My sincere apologies for the lack of link :smallfrown: and

[The Bookworm]

If I may quote Haley Starshine: "Redcloak's probably 18th level".
Actually, the person who said that was Belkar, when he had activated the mark of justice and was suffering from some form of dementia! That's hardly evidence!

[Zevox]

If redcloak would get some armor and a weapon, and went crazy with the buffs beforehand, he'd stand a very good chance- especially if he broke out the turn/rebuke undead. Sure, Xykon has +4 turning resistance, but I bet redcloak still stands a decent chance there. However, if our man Redcloak sticks to his pattern and just slings spells at him, he's screwed, plain and simple; a cleric simply cannot outspell a sorcerer of equal level to him but with d12 hit dice, and Xykon is almost certainly a few levels higher. Clerics do have certain advantages, though, especially when it comes to undead.
You vastly overestimate Redcloak's abilities. For one, Rebuke Undead would be useless against Xykon. The absolute maximum HD of undead it can affect, on a very good turning roll, is the Cleric's level+4. Redcloak is more than 4 levels below Xykon, easily, so he can't affect him. And due to Xykon's turning resistance, Redcloak would have to be the same level as Xykon to even stand a chance of affecting him.

And buffs won't save Redcloak. Xykon would only need to break out Greater Dispel Magic, and all Redcloak's buffs will probably be gone. And if Xykon knows Disjunction, one casting of that means they're definitely gone. And weapons and armor wouldn't help the little Goblin, either. Armor is no defense against a sorcerer (on the contrary, the speed loss that non-light armor gives you is a disadvantage against them). And he'd need one hell of a good weapon to be of any use vs Xykon, given his DR and hit points, and he'd need Xykon to be stupid enough not to cast some simple anti-physical defensive spells to raise his AC or given himself other defenses - plus since Redcloak can't cast any flying spells while Xykon can, he likely couldn't fight him with a melee weapon anyway, and ranged weapons can't overcome a Lich's DR (they don't do bludgeoning damage). And hell, Redcloak couldn't even count on positive energy to help him (see Start of Darkness for why).


If I may quote Haley Starshine: "Redcloak's probably 18th level". Yes, Redcloak's "only" 15+, but that "+" could be up to +5, in my view.
I don't recall anyone saying that, Haley or otherwise. And as far as I'm concerned, even if someone had, unless its Xykon or another member of Team Evil who could plausibly know, its nothing but their speculation, which could easily be inflated. No one in the Order has ever fought Redcloak, nor even spent much time in close proximity to him. Hell, no one but Miko has ever fought Redcloak and lived to tell of it (unless you count Hinjo getting zapped as he leaped off his junk as a "fight"). And she won't be offering any insight into his abilities anytime soon.

As for me, I'll believe Redcloak is higher than 15th level when he does something that he couldn't do at 15th level. Cast a 9th level spell. Cast more than 3 8th-level spells. Tell us he's doing some amount of damage beyond 30d6 with his disintegrate spell. Things like those. Until then, I'll go by what the evidence sets him at, rather than what baseless assumptions do, thanks.

Zevox

[Berserk Monk]

Xykon's more powerful.

[Dagren]

Doubt it. Xykon has absolutely nothing he cares about other than his own existence, and he's shown before that he doesn't consider his phylactery important enough for Redcloak threatening/destroying that to make any difference to him.Xykon doesn't consider his Phylactery important?The big X would seem to disagree with you (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html).Still, I agree that threatening to destroy it would only be a major threat if he was also in mortal danger (Like he was in that comic)

Given that, manipulation of him is impossible, unless through superior force. Which Redcloak decidedly does not possess.Redcloak himself would disagree with you on that one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html). He may not be able to bully Xykon like he did that decoy during the battle, but he certainly can manipulate him. Remember, Xykon is Sor not Wiz.

[Salt_Crow]

...Remember, Xykon is Sor not Wiz.

Meaning he has high enough Charisma to pull off even untrained social skill checks. :smallbiggrin:

[King of Nowhere]

In terms of pure strenght, Xykon is by far the most powerful. However, Redcloack is reducing the distance since the days of start of darkness, and I believe with some mass protecting spells and the advantage of surprise, He could defeat Xykon, or at least stand a chance.
Xykon don't have disjunction, we alreay knows all his three 9th level spells (energy drain, meteor swarm, and soul bind). Greater dispel magic would add 15 to the dispel roll, meaning a 50% chance of doing nothing (more, if Redclaock is higher that level 15), and still low chance of dispelling every protection. Plus, it's not sure Xykon has that spell, or will go for it. Ad Redcloack main advantage is the capability of healing himself, while Xykon can't. With a mass heal, Redcloack could both heal himself and damage Xykon.
Also, we don't know what the crimson mantle really do, but surely it offers some cool protective powers. But I would bet that if Redcloack really put himself to the task, he can make Xykon pay.

[Salt_Crow]

@King of Nowere

You might want to spoiler that since it's got plenty of SoD materials :)

[Dagren]

Meaning he has high enough Charisma to pull off even untrained social skill checks. :smallbiggrin:
And considering that Sense Motive is Wis based, your point would be...?

My point was that he doesn't necessarily have the high Int, which while not mechanically applicable would certainly be useful when we get out of raw power levels and into intrigue.

[King of Nowhere]

@King of Nowere

You might want to spoiler that since it's got plenty of SoD materials :)

I didn't because no plot points were involved, only class/level geekery.

[Undead Prince]

Sure, Xykon has +4 turning resistance, but I bet redcloak still stands a decent chance there.

Not a chance in hell.

You can only rebuke undead up to 4 levels higher than you. Xykon is at least 5 levels higher than Red, and has +4 turn resistance, which makes him effectively 9 levels higher.

To have even a remote possibility of rebuking Xykon, Red would need to stack up on rebuking level enhancing items, and a lot of them (Phylactery of Undead Turning, Rod of Denial, Scepter of the Netherworld, Sacred Armor for a total of +12 to rebuking level). And in that case, we can't exclude Xykon not increasing his turn resistance even further (simply Spell-stitching himself would give +2 turn resistance).

Relying on rebuking simply won't cut it.


However, if our man Redcloak sticks to his pattern and just slings spells at him, he's screwed, plain and simple; a cleric simply cannot outspell a sorcerer of equal level to him

A cleric can easily outspell a sorcerer. Clerics have almost the same number of spells, but many more spells to choose from, including practically any arcane (through domains and Divine Magician). Clerics get special Cleric spells which are monstrously powerful (Consumptive Field anyone?), and Divine Metamagic.


but with d12 hit dice

Undead don't have Constitution, so even with their d12 HD they're low on hitpoints. Anyway, hitpoints are totally irrelevant. What, you think casters fight by flinging fireballs and magic missiles?

Vs. any undead: in advance, Substitute Domain [Luck, Necromancy], Moment of Prescience for +25 to Initiative; buff up your DC by the many methods available; then Divine Metamagic Heightened Twinned Control Undead.


Of course, Xykon's epic now, so if he has half a brain, he's leagues above Redcloack. Even the phylactery is no help. Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery or similar spell, and there's now a dozen phylacteries instead of just one. All hidden under Sequester in dark and secret parts of the universe.

[Zevox]

Xykon doesn't consider his Phylactery important?The big X would seem to disagree with you (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html).Still, I agree that threatening to destroy it would only be a major threat if he was also in mortal danger (Like he was in that comic)
Bingo. Compare Xykon's reaction in Start of Darkness about his phylactery to his reaction there. If his existence isn't immediately threatened, he's not worried about his phylactery. If it is, he has reason to worry about it. But not at any other time. And Redcloak lacks the power to threaten Xykon's existence the way Soon did.


Redcloak himself would disagree with you on that one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html). He may not be able to bully Xykon like he did that decoy during the battle, but he certainly can manipulate him. Remember, Xykon is Sor not Wiz.
How so? I see no indication in there of manipulation of Xykon. Only of him keeping secrets from him. That's deception, not manipulation (at least not in the sense that I was referring to in that quote). By manipulation I was referring to the suggestion of the poster I quoted that he could gain some sort of psychological control of him. That is impossible - Xykon's "psychology" amounts to a desire to continue existing, killing things to amuse himself, and make a name for himself as a great evil. Unless you can come up with a way to genuinely threaten his existence, take away his magic, or imprison him in a manner he couldn't escape, you can't possibly gain any such control of him. And there's not much out there that can do any of those things to him - certainly nothing Redcloak has.

And Xykon being a Sorcerer rather than a Wizard has nothing to do with either - since aging and becoming a Lich, his intelligence and wisdom scores are pretty respectable. See the ending of Start of Darkness compared to his earlier appearances in that same book. His short attention span for anything he deems unimportant aside, Xykon is actually quite cunning. And he's not going to fail to use that when it comes to those few things he does give a damn about, like his continued existence.

Zevox

[petersohn]

Of course, Xykon's epic now, so if he has half a brain, he's leagues above Redcloack. Even the phylactery is no help. Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery or similar spell, and there's now a dozen phylacteries instead of just one. All hidden under Sequester in dark and secret parts of the universe.

Xykon has no brain.

Out of humour, he is really stupid. Of course if he discovers a conspiracy against him, then he has all possible ways to stop it. But as I know RC, if he wants to betray Xykon, he can hide his plans good enough so he won't notice before it is too late.

[Master Wang]

umm Xy WAY more powerful, he could distroy redcloak at a whim, Seriously, how many pee-ons have been smoked by xy just for grins and giggles?

now the real question is, Xy or mr.monster in the dark?

[Zevox]

umm Xy WAY more powerful, he could distroy redcloak at a whim, Seriously, how many pee-ons have been smoked by xy just for grins and giggles?
Redcloak is not just some peon, though. He's a high-level Cleric. Granted, Xykon is definitely much more powerful than him, but he wouldn't be able to just wipe Redcloak out at a whim. Not without breaking out some epic magic or getting lucky on a save-or-die, anyway. (Or a using a no-save spell like Irresistable Dance to screw him over, but we have no idea if he knows anything of the sort.)


now the real question is, Xy or mr.monster in the dark?
Unknowable. We have no idea what MitD is, or is capable of. He could be below even Redcloak in most regards and just extremely physically durable and strong, or he could theoretically be the most powerful being we've seen in the strip short of the gods/snarl. We just can't know.

Zevox

[Master Wang]

Indeed but how many Epic lvl butt kickens has Xy doled out? we have seen some mighty evil high lvl-killeveryoneandanything spells from this dude

As for Mitd weh ahve seen him in action only once...and it was nasty. My vote would still be for Xy in a one on one situation (MiTD aint so bright)


Oh and remeber when Xy beat and killed roy? You cant tell me that Roy could not beat Redcloak.

[Alteran]

You cant tell me that Roy could not beat Redcloak.

Roy could not beat Redcloak.

At least, it's not likely he would. Looking at the Class and Level Geekery Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95005) it seems Roy has been pegged at 13th level (before he died), with Redcloak being at least 15th level. Furthermore, Redcloak is a cleric, a class generally considered to be more powerful than the fighter. From his battle with the High Priest of the Twelve Gods we know Redcloak has several save-or-dies (or save-or-loses) and a single destruction could kill Roy if he wasn't lucky. Roy doesn't even have main-character immunity, we've already seen him die once.

Also, doesn't Roy lose a level or something if he's resurrected? I've never played 3.5e, so I don't know, but I've seen somebody mention this on these forums.

[NamonakiRei]

Xykon is definitley more powerful than Redcloak, as of right now. Accorting to the geekery thread, Redcloak is-for all we know- Lv 15. Xykon is Lv. 22-23. Plus, you know, lich. Wich is always a nice perk.

Though Redcloak has more eventual potential. I mean, an epic Lv. Redcloak? I'd recommend paladins to start running right away. All humans, at that. I mean, he is smart, has good tactics, and he can be cunning. He cares about his people and he takes care of every single loose thread. Well, most.

Xykon, OTOH, is very smart and cunning, but lacks the tactics and dedication to a cause without killing everyone you need in the process. I mean, he lacks attention span.

If they were both to fight, both at the same level, both fully prepared, no MitD in between, then I put my chips in for Redcloak. But either could win. That's just a personal thing.

And, also, the MitD seems to be the most powerful of the 3. But he has a bit of a childish persona, so I don't really see him fighting anyone he thinks is his friend.

And yeah, Roy would be Lv. 12 if rezzed. And Redcloak could kick the living hell out of him. IMHO.

[Zevox]

Oh and remeber when Xy beat and killed roy? You cant tell me that Roy could not beat Redcloak.
Assuming Redcloak had any idea what he was doing, no, Roy could not beat him. Its quite easy for a high-level Cleric to incapacitate even a higher-level fighter with a save-or-die/suck. And Roy is several levels below Redcloak. Many of the spells Redcloak used in his duel with Azure City's High Priest would have taken Roy out quite fast, particularly will save spells like Plane Shift. And that not even getting into how badly things would go for Roy if he used Harm, like he did on Miko. Roy lacks her high saves, so he'd be taking huge damage from that spell - 150 points unless he got lucky and made his save. Odds are good he doesn't have that many hit points to start with, and he could be well below that depending on his constitution score and level post-resurrection.

Zevox

[Master Wang]

Ok, ok..you all make excellent arguments against Roy beating redcloak and allthough i havnt played DnD for many a year (3rd addition) I still put my money on the guy with the big magic sword. Why? look at the comic where roy fights Xy for the 2nd time, sure he loses, but he scores many hits before his demise. I think with the proper initative roy would be a one hit wonder...GREATER CLEAVE! And likewise if RC had the initative ..harm touch for the win. I dont think the lvl difference is so great that one good swing of that big @$$ sword wouldnt take poor RC to neg HP. I guess what I am saying is its all about initative and advantage.

And sorry I got a few of u off the topic.

[Zevox]

Ok, ok..you all make excellent arguments against Roy beating redcloak and allthough i havnt played DnD for many a year (3rd addition) I still put my money on the guy with the big magic sword. Why? look at the comic where roy fights Xy for the 2nd time, sure he loses, but he scores many hits before his demise. I think with the proper initative roy would be a one hit wonder...GREATER CLEAVE! And likewise if RC had the initative ..harm touch for the win. I dont think the lvl difference is so great that one good swing of that big @$$ sword wouldnt take poor RC to neg HP. I guess what I am saying is its all about initative and advantage.

And sorry I got a few of u off the topic.
I'm afraid you're simply very wrong here. Roy got as many hits as he did on Xykon during the Battle of Azure City simply because Xykon wasn't fighting back. Hell, he wasn't even particularly bothered by his wounds until Roy had hit him upwards of a dozen times or so (likely because his damage reduction meant Roy was doing 15 points less damage on every swing than he would against another foe), and that was the point at which he broke out Meteor Swarm and everything went downhill.

You vastly overestimate the damage Roy can do with his greatsword, too. That only does 2d6+5+(his strength mod *1.5, probably 7 or so) per hit (seems to do bonus damage to undead, but Redcloak isn't an undead), which means an average of about 19-20 or so, depending on his strength. A 15th-level Cleric has an average of 67.5 hp from his class alone, and an additional 15 for every point of constitution bonus he has. One attack wouldn't be a problem for Redcloak. Roy would require 2-3 rounds of full attacks to take Redcloak down, minimum - which if Redcloak knows what hes doing, Roy wouldn't get.

And Great Cleave is no help to him. That just lets him attack an additional foe in his reach if one of his attacks takes an opponent into negative hps. Unless Redcloak had a bunch of Hobgoblins that Roy could one-shot around him, Roy couldn't even use it. And even if that were the case, it would just mean Roy could take down the Hobgoblins and hurt Redcloak at the same time - it wouldn't mean he'd get extra attacks on Redcloak himself.

Zevox

[King of Nowhere]

If Roy took a lot of potions and buffing spells before the battle, it could be done (the potions and spells would allow him to stand a good chance of making the saving throws). It also depends on how good is Redcloack's armor, and how many healing spells did he prepared.
On equal ground, no chance except a couple consecutive crits.

[David Argall]

You vastly overestimate the damage Roy can do with his greatsword, too. That only does 2d6+5+(his strength mod *1.5, probably 7 or so) per hit (seems to do bonus damage to undead, but Redcloak isn't an undead), which means an average of about 19-20 or so, depending on his strength.

And you grossly underestimate it. I've played lower level fighters who wracked up 30+ a hit routinely, and watched fighters of Roy's level dish out 200 hp a round. The obvious point is power attack, which could add about 25 hp a hit in Roy's case. [Redcloak does not seem to have a great armor class.] So give Roy a pair of Boots of Speed and a full round attack and we can easily see totals of 150 hp, putting Redcloak down in 1 round.

Now we do have to set conditions here. Give the cleric a few rounds to buff while the fighter is busy bashing down the door, and he can be a real bother for the fighter. But if they casually meet at an intersection, the cleric goes down.

[Aharon]

@Rebuking:
Are we assuming Xykon as he is in the comic, or as a real epic sorcerer would behave? I doubt that Xykon would bother with adding to his turn resistance. He comes across as rather arrogant and probably wouldn't bother. If he does so extensively, Redcloak doesn't stand a chance. If he does so moderately, it might work:

Having the items mentioned by the OP and improved turning, that puts Redcloaks effective turning level at 15+16=31 and Xykons effective level at 23+4(lich)+2 (spellstitched)+4(cloak of turn resistance)=33

So Redcloak could rebuke him on a high check result - which can be achieved via bonuses of various spells, I think (Hallow adds +4 sacred, Infernal Threnody by a bard adds +4 profane).

Adding in a Domain Draught (Sun) - Undeads you would normally turn are destroyed instead.

I repeat: This relies on Xykon behaving as in the comic, not taking all precautions that would be possible. If he does, he simply aquired items mimicking Death ward (exists, Scarab of Protection) and Life ward (not sure if it exists), which protect from Negative and Positve energy - and thus turning and rebuking - respectively.

@Undead Prince
In which sourcebook can Aumvor's fragmented phylactery be found?

[lord_khaine]

If Roy took a lot of potions and buffing spells before the battle, it could be done (the potions and spells would allow him to stand a good chance of making the saving throws). It also depends on how good is Redcloack's armor, and how many healing spells did he prepared.
On equal ground, no chance except a couple consecutive crits

potions really wont do any difference, and Durkon would have to cast so many buffs on him it might as well be 2 vs 1, if Roy were to have a proper chance against RC.

[hamishspence]

Aumvor's fragmented phylactery can be found in Champions of Ruin

(A good sourcebook, think "BoVD 2"- expands on Evil and possible motivations- Driven to Evil, I Am Not Evil, Mad I Tell You, etc.)

Its also the book that says- repeatedly, intentionally, regularly commiting evil acts, is the mark of an evil person. None of the stupid 1 evil + 1 good, on purpose, all the time, equals Neutral, (2nd ed's True Neutral.)

[Chronos]

Although Xykon is definitely more powerful, Redcloak would still take him out one-on-one if he had time to prepare, even several hours earlier. And he's definitely going to try as soon as the Plan succeeds-- He absolutely won't hurt Xykon as long as he needs him for the Plan, but after that, he's got several decades worth of hurt bottled up inside him that are going to come out.

All Redcloak would have to do would be to cast Resist Fire, Protection from Lightning, and Death Ward the morning before the Plan is set to finish. Between those three protections, nothing we know of Xykon having will have any effect on Redcloak (other than Magic Missile, but even maximized, that doesn't do enough damage to matter). Redcloak can then cast a Heal in the first round, and a Disintegrate in the second, and Xykon is a pile of dust.

One may protest that Xykon has epic magic, but then again, Redcloak has a major artifact. We don't know of any combat-related abilities of the Crimson Mantle, but then, we've never seen Xykon use an epic combat spell of any sort, not even in the fight with Soon were he was about to get his coccyx kicked. So that's at least a wash, and possibly even an advantage for Redcloak (it's not implausible that the Mantle has considerable defensive advantages).


As for the Monster in the Dark, some of the bonus strips in No Cure for the Paladin Blues have Xykon and Redcloak up against an ancient silver dragon. They're clearly outmatched, and win only through extreme luck. After the fight, they meet up with Monster-san again, and complain that he missed the fight, as he could have beaten the dragon easily. So it seems a safe bet that the Monster in the Dark is significantly more powerful than Xykon, if he actually bothers to use his power.

[King of Nowhere]

@lord_khaine:
I can't remember exactly the protective spells right now, but freedom of movement should counter hold person, and a simple protection from evil would make Roy immune to Redcloack's charm-like spells. Add something to buff the saving throws, and destruction is likely to go wasted. Put some healing potions into it, and Roy is capable of resisting while Redcloack run out of high level spells. Plus, Roy can kill Redcloack in 2-4 rounds, so his opponent shall spend many actions healing - and has a limited number of heal, while a cure X wounds would be likely to heal less than Roy can deal in one round.
Give Roy enough potions to assure that a dispel magic won't work on all of them.
Unless I'm forgetting something fundamental, that should work.

@Chronos:
SoD spoiler about the mitd capabilities

We see in SoD Xykon casting some charm on the mitd, so it is likely that, while extremely powerful in melee (thus useful against an ancient dragon who has high spell resistance) his saving throws sucks, so it is easily taken down with magic

[Finwe]

Ok, ok..you all make excellent arguments against Roy beating redcloak and allthough i havnt played DnD for many a year (3rd addition) I still put my money on the guy with the big magic sword. Why? look at the comic where roy fights Xy for the 2nd time, sure he loses, but he scores many hits before his demise. I think with the proper initative roy would be a one hit wonder...GREATER CLEAVE! And likewise if RC had the initative ..harm touch for the win. I dont think the lvl difference is so great that one good swing of that big @$$ sword wouldnt take poor RC to neg HP. I guess what I am saying is its all about initative and advantage.

And sorry I got a few of u off the topic.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/airWalk.htm

[Zevox]

And you grossly underestimate it. I've played lower level fighters who wracked up 30+ a hit routinely, and watched fighters of Roy's level dish out 200 hp a round. The obvious point is power attack, which could add about 25 hp a hit in Roy's case. [Redcloak does not seem to have a great armor class.] So give Roy a pair of Boots of Speed and a full round attack and we can easily see totals of 150 hp, putting Redcloak down in 1 round.

Now we do have to set conditions here. Give the cleric a few rounds to buff while the fighter is busy bashing down the door, and he can be a real bother for the fighter. But if they casually meet at an intersection, the cleric goes down.
What other fighters can do is beside the point. Roy is not other fighters. He does not have Boots of Speed to give him an extra attack. And we know absolutely nothing about Redcloak's armor class, so you can no more claim that its low than I can that its high.

I did forget that Roy definitely has Weapon Specialization, possibly Greater, and so does +2 to +4 damage per hit above what I mentioned, but that's all I forgot. I know Roy has Power Attack, but using that means a reduced chance to hit, and without knowing something about Redcloak's AC, we can't say whether Power Attack would help him, or merely make his situation worse.

What I do think we can say is that, whatever the circumstances under which the two were to do battle, the odds that they'd begin the fight already only 5' away from each other are very slim. In which case, no 1st-round full attack for Roy. In which case, even with full power attack and a hit, he couldn't take Redcloak down in one round. Possibly not even with a critical hit, depending on his level and strength vs Redcloak's level and constitution.

Zevox