Variant Fighter

[Jane_Smith]

Newly updated and refreshed. Enjoy.



http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9981/rallytherighteous.jpg

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The Fighter~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Bonus Feat, Shifting Tactics
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Path of the Warrior
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Bonus Feat
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Path of the Warrior
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Bonus Feat
6th|
+6|
+5|
+2|
+2|Path of the Warrior
7th|
+7|
+5|
+2|
+2|Bonus Feat
8th|
+8|
+6|
+2|
+2|Path of the Warrior
9th|
+9|
+6|
+3|
+3|Bonus Feat
10th|
+10|
+7|
+3|
+3|Path of the Warrior
11th|
+11|
+7|
+3|
+3|Bonus Feat
12th|
+12|
+8|
+4|
+4|Path of the Warrior
13th|
+13|
+8|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat
14th|
+14|
+9|
+4|
+4|Path of the Warrior
15th|
+15|
+9|
+5|
+5|Bonus Feat
16th|
+16|
+10|
+5|
+5|Path of the Warrior
17th|
+17|
+10|
+5|
+5|Bonus Feat
18th|
+18|
+11|
+6|
+6|Path of the Warrior
19th|
+19|
+11|
+6|
+6|Bonus Feat
20th|
+20|
+12|
+6|
+6|Path of the Warrior[/table]

Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d10.
Base Attack: Good.
Saves: Good Fortitude, Poor Reflex, Poor Willpower.

Class Skills
The Fighter's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str) and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.


Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Shifting Tactics (Ex): Your training with a wide range of armor, weaponry and tactics gives you great skill with particular weapons. You have the flexibility to adjust your training. Once per day, after resting for at least 8 hours (these hours do not need to be consecutive), you can spend 1 hour in practice to change any [fighter] feat you possess with another [fighter] feat. You must meet all prerequisites of the new feat. You cannot lose a feat that is the prerequisite for any other feats or abilities you have.

Bonus Feats: At 1st level and every two levels thereafter, a fighter gets a bonus feat. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is limited to [Fighter] feats for these bonus feats.

Path of the Warrior: At 2nd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, a fighter gains a special ability of his choice from among the following options.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Adaptation (Ex): For every round a fighter is engaged in combat with an opponent, or observes that opponent fighting, he gains a cumulative +1 bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, armor class, saving throws and sense motive checks against that opponent until the end of the encounter. These bonuses cannot exceed +5.

Armor Compatibility (Ex): The fighter gains a +1 armor bonus to his armor class when wearing any type of armor he is proficient with. This stacks with the armor bonus granted by the equipped armor. When wearing that armor, his maximum dexterity bonus and his armor check penalty are both improved by one. While wearing heavy armor, he can be used as cover by his allies. He treats any heavy armor he wears as medium and medium armor as light for purposes of determining his speed and running capabilities. Furthermore, he reduces any falling damage by his armor bonus to AC.

Battle Prowess (Ex): The fighter suffers only a -3 penalty on all iterative attacks, instead of -5. This does not allow the fighter to gain extra attacks at lower levels, he gains them normally.

Counterstrike (Ex): Every creature which attacks and misses the fighter with melee or ranged weapon and is threatened by him provokes an attack of opportunity from the fighter. The fighter may use this ability a number of times each round equal to his dexterity modifier (minimum 1), but this does not allow him to make additional attacks of oppurtunity on a single creature multiple times. If the fighter is fighting defensively, he gains a +4 bonus on attacks of opportunity made using this ability.

Counter-Tactics: Brutes (Ex): The fighter knows how to fight melee opponents who rely on brute force. He gains a +3 bonus against attempts to bull-rush, overrun, or sunder him or items in his possession. These bonuses increase by +2 if the fighter possesses Tactical Genius.

Counter-Tactics: Flyers (Ex): The fighter knows how to fight flying creatures. He gains a +3 dodge bonus to AC against flying opponents, and against opponents attacking from higher ground or horseback. This bonus increases by +2 if the fighter possesses Tactical Genius.

Counter-Tactics: Giants (Ex): The fighter can undergo training against large creatures. He gains a +2 dodge bonus to AC against a creature for every size category larger it is then himself. The overall bonus to AC increase by +2 if the fighter possesses Tactical Genius.

Counter-Tactics: Leaders (Ex): The fighter knows how to fight opponents who command their troops. As a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, a fighter may make an Intimidate check to demoralize opponents within 30 feet of him with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher. Every opponent that becomes demoralized loses all morale bonuses to abilities, attack rolls, damage rolls, and skills (this includes bonuses from spells and spell-like effects), for a number of rounds equal to 3 + fighter's Charisma modifier. The fighter gains a +4 bonus on his Intimidate check used in this fashion if he possesses Tactical Genius.

Counter-Tactics: Manipulators (Ex): The fighter gains a +3 bonus on saving throws against all mind affecting spells and effects. This bonus increases by +2 if he possesses Tactical Genius.

Counter-Tactics: Mobs (Ex): The fighter knows well how to defend himself from multiple opponents at the same time. He gains a +2 dodge bonus to AC and Damage Reduction 5 against attacks made by all opponents after the first one in any given round. The fighter gains Uncanny Dodge as a class feature in addition to this bonus if he possesses Tactical Genius. The fighters levels stack with rogue levels to determine uncanny dodge effectiveness, and if he already possesses or later gains uncanny dodge, he gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Counter-Tactics: Opportunists (Ex): The fighter knows how to fight melee opponents who use opportunity to deliver deadly blows. He gains +3 dodge bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity and gains Damage Reduction equal to half his fighter level against precision damage (such as Sneak Attack). He gains an additional +2 dodge bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity and damage reduction equal to his fighter level against precision damage if he possesses Tactical Genius.

Counter-Tactics: Ranged (Ex): The fighter knows how to defend himself from projectiles and thrown weapons. He gains a +3 dodge bonus to AC against all ranged attacks. This bonus increases by +2 if the fighter possesses Tactical Genius.

Counter-Tactics: Snatchers (Ex): The fighter knows how to fight grasping creatures. He gains +3 dodge bonus against grapple attempts and bite attacks. He also gains Damage Reduction equal to half his fighter level (rounded down) against bite attacks, constriction, and crushing damage when swallowed whole. He gains an additional +3 dodge bonus to AC against grapple attempts and bite attacks, and gains Damage Reduction equal to his fighter level against bite attacks, constriction, and crushing damage when swallowed whole if he possesses Tactical Genius.

Counter-Tactics: Spellcasters (Ex): The fighter knows how to fight spellcasters. He gains +3 dodge bonus to Armor Class and a +3 bonus on Reflex saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. In addition, he can use his Constitution modifier in place of his Wisdom modifier when making Will saves against spells and spell-like abilities. His bonus to Armor Class and Reflex saving throws increases by +2 and gains a +2 bonus on Will saving throws if he possesses Tactical Genius.

Counter-Tactics: Tactical (Ex): The fighter knows how to fight melee opponents who use various skillful tactics. He gains +3 bonus against attempts to disarm, feint, or trip him. These bonuses increase by +2 if the fighter possesses Tactical Genius.

Resilience (Ex): If a fighter makes a successful Fortitude or Will saving throw that would normally reduce the spell's effect, she suffers no effect from the spell at all. Only those spells with a Saving Throw entry of "Will partial," "Fortitude half," or similar entries can be negated through this ability. In addition, the fighter no longer automatically fails a Fortitude or Will saving throw on a result of 1. He still fails if the roll result is to low, however.

Shield Compatibility (Ex): The fighter gains a +1 shield bonus to his armor class when using any type of shield he is proficient with. This stacks with the shield bonus granted by the equipped shield. When using that shield, his armor check penalty is improved by one. In addition, as an swift action he may apply his shield bonus as a bonus to his reflex saving throws and to reduce the damage he takes from fire, acid and cold effects for one round.

Skills of War (Ex): A fighter has invested in learning skills that are not about killing others, but are still essential on the battlefield. He gains a +2 bonus on all Craft checks to make armor, weapons, items and vehicles related to war, on Heal checks, on Bluff checks to perform feint in combat, on Knowledge skills to determine enemies' abilities and weaknesses, and on Survival checks. He gains Bluff and Survival skills as class skills, if he did not already have them as such.

Swift Tactics (Ex): A fighter has learned to cover more distance in combat easily. As a swift action, the fighter may move 10 feet. This does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and the fighter may still make a 5 foot move this round before or after making a full attack action. The fighter cannot use this ability when fatigued or exhuasted or when wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load. The fighter may opt to use this ability when it is not his turn as an immediate action when being struck by an attack of opportunity to gain a +4 dodge bonus to armor class against that attack (thus making him unable to use the swift version of this ability during his following turn).

Tactical Genius (Ex): The fighter gains additional benefits with counter-tactic ability's. Read each individual effect to see the benefits. In addition, he increases the bonuses granted by the below feats by +1 (bonus types stay unchanged). The feats are: Dodge, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, Mobility, and Trample.

Warrior Prodigy (Ex): The fighter treats his ability scores, base attack bonuses, base saving throw bonuses and skill ranks as 2 points higher for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of feats with the 'fighter' descriptor or for entering prestige classes.

Weapon Compatibility (Ex): The fighter gains a +1 bonus to all attack rolls when using a weapon he is proficient with. He also gains a +2 bonus on all disarm and trip checks with that weapon. The weilded weapon's hardness is treated as doubled in the fighters hands, and gains a +2 bonus on saving throws made against any effect that specifically targets the weapon. In addition, the weapon's base damage dice is increased by one.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[ChristosVictor]

I think you did a great job and might just take this for my campaign setting. Is it Over powered? Yes. But fighters have no staying power to advance beyond 5 to 7 levels in because they are going for a Prestiege Class or multi class, seriously who goes 15 levels straight fighter? This is a good alternative to make a fighter a lot more attractive and sustainable in later levels.

[MeklorIlavator]

Some nice stuff, but I didn't really see anything that really address his primary flaws: reliance on full attacks, reliance on gear, low mobility, etc. Though the addition of skill points does address the fact that they're useless outside combat.

One thing I'm kinda worried about is that you seem to be throwing Uncanny dodge/improved uncanny dodge around alot. This makes Deadly Strike from the Ranger pretty much useless outside of Coup De Grace, so be warned.

Also, I wouldn't call it overpowered. At most I'd say if goes from a Tier 5 to a tier 4, but I'm not sure I'd go that far.

[Ponce]

The granted abilities really need to scale with level more. The problem with fighters is that they just don't GROW exponentially like casters do. Your version of the fighter I think is still linear, at best it will extend average useful life by a level or two. Some of them are OK though, like Resiliency. Good job overall.

[Jane_Smith]

I gave the fighters these abilities to help with their reliance on full attacks, mobility, etc;

Battlefield Superiority (Ex): A fighter suffers only a -4 penalty on all iterative attacks, instead of -5. For example, a character with a base attack bonus of +19 and this ability performs full attacks with +19/+15/+11/+7 bonuses, not +19/+14/+9/+4.

Swift Tactics (Ex): A fighter has learned to cover more distance in combat easily. He may make a full attack before or after moving 10 feet in distance, instead of 5 feet. The fighter must move only before or after the attack. In addition, once per round as an immediate action, whenever a creature the fighter threatens makes a defensive retreat, the fighter may make a 5 foot move in the same direction as the fleeing opponent.

These allow the fighter to move more between full attacks, pursuit fleeing enemys, get more attacks at earlier levels and less penalty on additional attacks in a full attack...

Not only that, I managed to make the Heroic Surge feat from d20 modern and translated it for 3.5... - so that's an extra move or attack action a few times per day. Not shabby when you can move 40 feet before a full attack! Or 10 feet, then 30.. or 30 then 10... etc.

[MeklorIlavator]

Uh...I don't think those work like you think they do. The first doesn't change his actual BAB progression, though that's easy enought to change. Still, it doesn't change anything about his reliance on Full attacks. Plus, you specifically deny him the ability to move during a Full attack, so not sure what you're talking about there.

The second helps a bit, but I don't think you really thought that through. Sure, a 10-ft step is good, but it doesn't really help, and neither does moving 5ft towards someone who is moving away. In any case, the real problem is that Flight/similar abilities are major hinderances to a Fighter, and this doesn't solve that.

[VelvetThunder]

The Veteran Ability Seems too powerful to be getting at level 2. I think you should push it up to at least level 5. Also Did you intend for it to be used once per round? Or can they reroll the attack until either they hit or run out of uses? And lastly Can it be used with the Power attack feat?

[Knaight]

Counter attack isn't cutting it. At least give one counter attack per normal attack, and make the counter attacks more powerful. Maybe something along the lines of being able to stun with a counter attack, or if the counter attack hits, give a penalty to all future attacks this round equal to half fighter level. Take a look at the Shifts system in my signature, specifically the counter attack part.

[Cieyrin]

For what counter-attack does, it does as it's intended. If a fighter wants to do more of the same, he just needs to spend one of his plentiful feats on picking up Karmic Strike from Complete Warrior and he's got his advanced counterstriking (Cuz seriously, Robilar's Gambit is a bloody joke).

Also, I don't think Veteran is all that overpowering, considering you do it as an immediate action, anyways, which you only get one of. Fighters are supposed to be able to be better at beating people down than everybody else and a free reroll on those attack rolls is a little help in that direction.

I do agree with Meklor that Fighters don't necessarily need to have the Uncanny Dodge chain. I'd like to see a Fighter do some fancy sidestepping in plate. They have Counter-Tactics to foil precision damage that they can choose, anyways, so if they're worried about it, they can take that instead.

And finally, on the full attack issue, not all Fighters are melee. Fighters can play archer far better than anybody else if they focus on doing so. As such, they can be artillery turrets, at far longer ranges than casters can manage to boot, as well. Now, this doesn't clear up that melee fighters need to get all up in their enemies' grill but then, Fighters are designed less towards full offense and more toward a balance between taking and receiving damage. Wizards are glass cannons, as we all know, and if it wasn't for our meat shields, Mr. Wizard would be torn apart by the nastier critters in the world before he can get off his innumerable blasts and WMDs. Offense doesn't necessarily always need to be our best defense.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Faulty]

You sure love throwing the Uncanny Dodge train around, don't you? :smallconfused: You really need to cool it with that.

[Jane_Smith]

The uncanny dodge for fighter was a bit much, im removing that from fighter.

The veteran ability is 1/round. Please look up information on Immediate actions - they can only be used 1 time per round, and they use up your Swift action for your turn. If you plan to use it after your turn, then you must have a swift action unused from your turn. So yes - it is a max of 1/round and cant be used to keep rerolling the attack.

Also, what would it matter having veteran at higher level? It scales with level.. At level 10, your attack bonus is going to be higher, your going to be dishing out more damage, and your going to get to use it 5/day + 1/day per int bonus. At level 2 it just gives you 1/day + int bonus, and your doing less damage, etc. All it really does is give lower-level fighters a second chance at hitting that boss-like enemy, etc in the encounter in case they roll like a natural 1. We all have bad luck with the dice eh? And when you only got 1 attack to depend on, I think its a much needed refreshment for fighters.

Im thinking about moving Shift Tactics to level 5, 10, 15, and 20 only... and it only allows a max of 3 + int bonus feats to be changed...

[Faulty]

This is just my two cents, you can disregard it as it's your homebrew, and I'm not trying to force my opinion on you, but I think the Uncanny Dodge train should be a Rogue and Barbarian thing only.

[VelvetThunder]

The veteran ability is 1/round. Please look up information on Immediate actions - they can only be used 1 time per round, and they use up your Swift action for your turn. If you plan to use it after your turn, then you must have a swift action unused from your turn. So yes - it is a max of 1/round and cant be used to keep rerolling the attack.

Immediate action... Duh! Sorry about that.

[Telonius]

Do the "Paths of War" items stack, if applicable? Some obviously wouldn't (Armored Mobility), but could a Fighter take multiple doses of, for example, Articulation?

[Jane_Smith]

You can only take warcraft abilities 1 time. They are not repeatable. And the bonus do stack, when allowed.

Example, if you were a medium sized fighter fighting against a collosal sized red dragon in flight? Giant tactics, flying tactics, and spellcaster fighting tactics would stack; +11 AC, +14 AC vs. touch attacks/range touch attacks from spells, +3 reflex saves vs. fire breath/spells.

And you guys were saying they need to scale with level? :p Heh, higher level enemys fit into multiple categories, theirs your scaling! XD

[Ouranos]

I like it. A big upgrade to standard fighters. It looks like it's not meant to make the fightermore self-sefficient as much as it is to make the fighter better at defending his allies. the fighter using himself as cover? AWESOME. Giving him lots of bonuses to AC as well? Oh yeah, put a heavy armored warrior who has full mobility (think mithril full plate, he treats it as LIGHT armor!) in between a good caster and say a frost giant, and he becomes a PITA to even hit while providing the protection that caster needs to nuke the giant.

[Jane_Smith]

EXACTLY!!! And heck, we havent even applied races to the class yet. Imagine a dwarf fighter with these benefits? The bonuses against being tripped/bullrushed/sundered/etc, combined with stability, and giant-counter tactics with its racial? You got yourself a nasty little giant slayer.

[Cute_Riolu]

A bit of a suggestion that might make fighters a bit more... robust. Allow them to make knowledge checks as if they had half ranks in them, but only for the purpose of identifying enemies and their weaknesses, etc.

[mikej]

I really like your homebrew Fighter, it's not over the top like many others, it doesn't make the Fighter into something completely different than the original. You could turn some of the bonus feats into Martial Study and you have yourself a decent melee character. Also very modest and thought out additions to the Fighter's clase skills.

[Szatany]

I can see you copied my ultimate fighter almost to the letter.
Do I get some credit perhaps? :smallsmile: :smallcool:

[Jane_Smith]

I copied the warcraft abilities simply because I was already working on a way for fighters to gain stances like tome of battle without the whole setup they had for stances known, disciplines, etc, when I found the ultimate fighter. Its a very good idea.

[Lert, A.]

First impresion, I like. I will add my thoughts on the matter, however. :smalltongue:

Skills = good. I have always houseruled away 2 +Int for every class because of how useless it becomes. Like most good fixes your figther is no longer deaf and blind. :smallbiggrin:

The addition of tower shields fits the fighter premise well.

Weapon Aptitude (Ex): Any feat to have a designated weapon could be streched by rule lawyers to include Exotic weapon proficiencies. I would close that loophole.

Veteran (Ex): Maybe add to the end to a minimum of 1 to avoid a low Int fighter getting no use of this feature.

-------------------------
Path of the Warrior: Good, but some items could use more clarification.

Battlefield Superiority (Ex): Your example indicates this, but a note should be made that you can not gain extra iterative attacks from this path.

Counter-Tactics: Flyers (Ex): With including higher ground or horseback in addition to flying you may want to rename this one so a cursory check won't skip over this path.

Counter-Tactics: Ranged (Ex): Again, a possible loophole with "all ranged attacks." Would this include rays, dragon breath, etc. or just manufactured weapons as is earlier implied. Clarrification would be good.

Counter-Tactics: Spellcasters (Ex): Probably still not enough. Maybe make it Wis + Con to Will.

Resilience (Ex): Perhaps too strong? Not sure. Might consider making one path for Will and one for Fort.

Skills of War (Ex): Bluff checks to perform feint in combat and on Survival checks is mentioned. Perhaps another path to make these skills class skills or some sort of bonus to help with them being cross-class?

--------------
Shift Tactics (Ex): 3 + Int almost seems to high considering at 5th level you would be able to swap out all of your 3 fighter feats without any Int bonus at all.

===========
Again, looking good.

[Zeta Kai]

I like everything about the skillset except the inclusion of Appraise & Diplomacy. Everything else makes sense, & fits with the duties & training of your average soldier. But Appraise & Diplomacy don't fit at all; that's what cross-class skills are for. They've got 4+Int points per level now, so I could see the brighter ones spending points on such unrelated skills, or even spending one of their many, many feats on those. But their default inclusion is just weird.

[Oslecamo]

I like everything about the skillset except the inclusion of Appraise & Diplomacy. Everything else makes sense, & fits with the duties & training of your average soldier. But Appraise & Diplomacy don't fit at all; that's what cross-class skills are for.

I could say the same for spot and listen. If your average soldier can spot your average scout, then nobody would ever bother trying stealth in the D&D world, since the scout's chance of bypassing several checks on a row of a soldier of same level become roughly zero.

But of course that doesn't matter, because the fighter must be the ultimate at everything but magic, so of course now he's also a master of talking because, hmm, your average soldiers are many times recquired to talck and stuff, so they clearly must be the best at it, and gets apraise because soldiers also use weapons and get paid money, so sudenly they're masters in the evaluation of goods.

So I say just go ahead and give him all skills as class skills, because I can easily make an argument for soldiers being used for all kind of worcks besides sentry when not fighting, from fortification building to messengers, so clearly it should have acess to all skills in existence.

[Dienekes]

But Osclecamo, isn't the average soldier supposed to be the Warrior NPC class?

The Fighter is specifically better than the average soldier and capable of adventuring (supposed to be) fairly well. I could definitely see such a person having a good spot check, yet not all class skills.

[Oslecamo]

But Osclecamo, isn't the average soldier supposed to be the Warrior NPC class?

The Fighter is specifically better than the average soldier and capable of adventuring (supposed to be) fairly well. I could definitely see such a person having a good spot check, yet not all class skills.

In case you didn't notice, every class is suposed to be adventuring, so hey, let's give spot/listen to everybody! What's the worst that can happen? Besides making hide/move silently obsolete that is?

Fighters are suposed to find things after said thing breacks their teeths on his fullplate. At best the fighter will be able to react subconsciously and hit the attacker before the fighter himself realizes it is there(aka combat reflexes).

If you want to spot the shaddow wolf inside the cave of darkness at 100 meters whitout fail, play a ranger. That's his job.

[Zeta Kai]

Poorly-spelled rant

Other than your hyperbole & your atrocious spelling, I generally agree with your basic sentiment. I will say though that a Fighter is a good candidate for a semi-elite sentry, so Spot & Listen are appropriate in my mind. They key to sneaking past someone is being a higher level than them, or spending a feat on Skill Focus. Fighters still only get 4+Int skill points, so they won't always be pouring everything into every skill anyway.

But Appraise & Diplomancy have just gotta go. Their inclusion is absurd, & distracting from the greater work.

[Dienekes]

Not at all Osc, I was merely pointing out that your reasoning that an average soldier shouldn't have spot fallacious since this is not supposed to be the average soldier.

You also seem to be forgetting the much used (in my game anyway) powerful guard. Whose job actually is to locate and destroy possible opposition to the person he is guarding. And taking from the standard classes the one that fits the heavy guard the most is a Fighter.

And merely giving a skill doesn't really mean all too much unless the Fighter decides to specialize in it. For example, not all Fighters are going to be amazing Alchemists, yet they have the skill capabilities to do so.

[Jane_Smith]

Big changes are coming to all my homebrew'z. Working on fighter first.

Removing diplomacy, keeping appraise, spot, listen.

Appraise is their due to the fact a fighter, unlike a common 'warrior' lives or dies on his equipment, and knows quality goods over crap some merchant is trying to pawn off on him.

Who is more deserving of appraise when dealing with weapons and armor then the fighter of the group? Why should the rogue know more about great swords then the fighter who specializes in them?

Anyway - ill be posting the upgrades in about a week. Till then, keep giving me some feedback on these classes. ^^

[Harperfan7]

This is really good, I like it a lot.

Also, you made non prestige class commandos possible (Scout ?/Fighter 4).

[Chokuto]

I dunno seems OP to me...

And instead of "Variant" Fighter, wouldn't it be more like "Improved" Fighter? It's not really much of a variant since no one would run the original if they could run this.

Overall, I like it alot! I don't know why everyone and their mother as been trashing melee classes on the boards here, saying that full casters are inherently better... or saying that a fighter is weak because he relies on Full Attacks... Isn't that like saying Wizards are weak because they rely only on spells?

[Harperfan7]

I don't know why everyone and their mother as been trashing melee classes on the boards here, saying that full casters are inherently better... or saying that a fighter is weak because he relies on Full Attacks... Isn't that like saying Wizards are weak because they rely only on spells?

Not at all, see, casters (wizards especially) always have the correct spell prepared and readied to use in every situation, and if not, they have whatever magic item they need at all times. Everyone knows this.
They never get caught in situations where anything other than spells or knowledge are necessary (duh), so really relying on spells isn't a weakness at all.

Fighters, however, can't cast any spells at all, so, by nature, they are always useless. Having good hit points, fortitude save, good flat footed ac, and a mode of attacking that basically never runs out are pretty much never necessary.

Is your DM halfway competent or something? Geez! Do us all a favor and never post on these forums again.:smallwink:

[Jane_Smith]

Casters have more 'versatility', but they have no stamina (i don't mean constitution..) in the sense of how long they can stay in a fight. People typically also forget that a caster capable of tossing one-hit kill spells can only do so once or twice a day when they get it, and the save dc is typically well within martial types range to succeed against. And at higher levels, the spell DC does not increase as much as the martial types saves, so the martial-types only grow more adept at resisting them.

Anyway, updated fighter nearly complete, will be editing first post in a few. Just need to edit the table... x.x

Edit: Updated on first post. Enjoy.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

:smallsigh:


Not at all, see, casters (wizards especially) always have the correct spell prepared and readied to use in every situation, and if not, they have whatever magic item they need at all times. Everyone knows this.
They never get caught in situations where anything other than spells or knowledge are necessary (duh), so really relying on spells isn't a weakness at all.

This argument is often used because, when caster tactics are explained, three bazillion spells are given as supporting points. People seem to think that you have to have all of them prepared, when in fact you only need one of the desired type (which you can have with spell slots, scrolls, wands, staffs, feats/items that let you recover/reprepare slots, etc.). There are very few situations where a spell or certain knowledge won't work, because so many spells duplicate and/or make obsolete other classes (not that this is necessarily a good thing, but it is the case).


Fighters, however, can't cast any spells at all, so, by nature, they are always useless. Having good hit points, fortitude save, good flat footed ac, and a mode of attacking that basically never runs out are pretty much never necessary.

Very few people believe fighters are useless--you always need someone to carry stuff, after all. :smallwink: Very many people do, however, believe that the fighter can't do anything the wizard can't also do, whether it's tanking vs. summoning a big creature, or dealing tons of damage vs. blasting, or whatever.


Casters have more 'versatility', but they have no stamina (i don't mean constitution..) in the sense of how long they can stay in a fight. People typically also forget that a caster capable of tossing one-hit kill spells can only do so once or twice a day when they get it, and the save dc is typically well within martial types range to succeed against. And at higher levels, the spell DC does not increase as much as the martial types saves, so the martial-types only grow more adept at resisting them.

This was the case in prior editions, but in 3e fighters have only good Fort saves--you don't need a Fort-targeting one-hit kill if you have a Ref-targeting one-hit disable or a Will-targeting one-hit take-over-your-mind. And keep in mind that one does not need to toss out a save or die every round. The average number of encounters each day is about 4 if going by the guidelines, and a wizard will have at least one spell for each encounter starting around 5th level (not to mention enough spells to sling one every round for 5 or 6 fights if he wants by high levels) assuming he doesn't have any stored spells.

It's not a problem to say that fighters shouldn't be worse than casters, but it's very hard to deny that they aren't worse than casters in the vast majority of cases. The fact that a given fighter can be much better at a certain specialty than a given wizard is not in dispute; the issue is that all possible wizards will be better at any given task than all possible fighters.

[Jane_Smith]

Note the new counter-tactic: manipulators, which grants the fighter a bonus on any mind affecting spell or effect. And the anti-spellcaster counter-tactic for +reflex saves, Resilience, etc.

I am trying to solve the save issues to some degree, so fighter's wont be "Ref or disabled" or "will or mind controlled" as often.

[Ouranos]

Jane, I can't wait to see you're re-build and refinement of your paladin. It is quite nice, just wonder what you can do to polish it :)

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Note the new counter-tactic: manipulators, which grants the fighter a bonus on any mind affecting spell or effect. And the anti-spellcaster counter-tactic for +reflex saves, Resilience, etc.

I am trying to solve the save issues to some degree, so fighter's wont be "Ref or disabled" or "will or mind controlled" as often.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about your fix; I like it, and think that anything trying to fix the problem is a 5-foot step in the right direction. I just hate it when people post on a fighter (or other melee class) fix/revamp/variant/whatever thread saying "Yeah, I like it, but you don't need to fix it 'cause it's fine as-is."

[Stormthorn]

the fighter using himself as cover? AWESOME

Anyone can get that. Its a basic epic feat in the SRD.



Is your DM halfway competent or something? Geez! Do us all a favor and never post on these forums again.

Those darn GMs running games balanced for all character types. Frosts my cookies right out.

[Lert, A.]

Getting better. Concerned about how most new bonuses are untyped as it could get out of hand with a power gamer. Also, Tactical Genius seems overpowered giving a hefty boost to about half of your paths. Reducing the boost to +1 like with the feats might help, or maybe just make it a class feature at level 10 so that it doesn't unbalance the early game (shouldn't be too bad at later levels).

[Chokuto]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about your fix; I like it, and think that anything trying to fix the problem is a 5-foot step in the right direction. I just hate it when people post on a fighter (or other melee class) fix/revamp/variant/whatever thread saying "Yeah, I like it, but you don't need to fix it 'cause it's fine as-is."


Ouch, burn on me PairO'Dice:smallbiggrin:!!! I was going to say that isn't what I said at all, but it pretty much is... (swallows his own foot now) I wasn't meaning to come across as "Hey, this is cool, but your work is pointless already.." and I apologize if it sounded that way, Jane. I just think it seems, overpowered, but I realize that your revamping ALL the classes, and I haven't had a chance to look at your others. I was just comparing this fighter to the core Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin melee classes and I thought, "Wow, who WOULDN'T want to run this?" I will shush up and read your other builds now.

[Jane_Smith]

Heh, its fine. :P

I am thinking about changes to ranger next. Last time i sunk my teeth into it i really kinda just sucked it up, blended it, and spat it out on paper. I need to look it over and kinda give it some order. >>

[Cieyrin]

From reading through, I can't see anything that looks outright wrong or overly unbalancing. I think that fighters shouldn't necessarily have Appraise, as your assessment of rogues being better at knowing swords than a fighter is true to the fact of he would know what he could fence it for on the market or through his connections. The fighter could tell you whether it was well balanced and if it would still be in one piece after a solid block, which is more a function of the Craft skill, honestly, which fighters had as a class skill, anyways.

Other than that, it looks good to me. Nice revision. I do enjoy seeing mettle more readily accessible, as it's a nice ability that sees very little use.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Zaakar]

I like what I see. I have one thing that bothers me, though:

There is no capstone (I dunno if I'm using the right expression). Why go fighter 20 lvls? All class abilities come the first two levels, you just get more of the same if you pick more levels in the class.

(Also, please don't use italics for writing the path of the warrior special abilities :smallfrown:)

Nice image.

[terrachrono]

:smalleek:

How could I NOT have known about this?!

I've been working on an upgrade of the fighter that operates off a similar mechanism, but balances out with RAW tier 4's and higher (hopefully). In context, this is probably one of the best revisions I have ever seen, thematically and mechanically.

Has anyone compiled the revisions made for this and the other classes?

[ericgrau]

It only takes a few levels of this class to pump the fighter's stats through the roof, making him OP at what he was already excellent at and yet leaving everything else he was bad at unchanged.

Against monsters of appropriate CR, a properly optimized fighter hits about 75% of the time and gets hit about 25% of the time. All it takes is a total of +4 to make that 95% and 5%. And there are large bonuses to other things too.

[terrachrono]

True, but if this part of an upscaling/rebalance of 3.5, and one could probably expect encounters to be closer to the 1 enemy/member design of 4e if that is the case, then, in context, this model gives the fighter a firm basis in tanking without limiting the other fighter builds that already work, in addition to making him at least as competent outside of combat as a barbarian, who is used for many of the same roles as a fighter with the exception of long-range dps (if barbs are supposed to be low AC, then I'm a talking sushi roll; they're only low AC if you go for ultra-damage builds, otherwise they can tank with the best of them. Besides, don't overlook the native ability to swap out feats (which otherwise requires a global variant) and a broad spectrum ability that incentivizes multiple attack forms, while freeing up the fighter from relying on Pounce models to have high damage output