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Jane_Smith
2009-04-06, 07:26 PM
Its hammah time again. :P -dances- Anyway, heres part 4 of my project, the Sorcerer.

Originally, it was disliked by most players for its... oh, i dunno, 19 empty levels? x.x And a useless familiar, all for 1-2 extra spells per day and spontaneous casting. That hardly seemed fair, considering the limitations it also got due to that spontaneous casting, such as increased casting time with metamagic.

Not only that, what irked me the most was the fact people could so freely multiclass into sorcerer! Your -born- with it. You either go threw puberty with it, or it doesn't pop up. That is how all sorcerers i have read personally work, and thats how wotc has described them in the only core handbook. So.. how does a 30 year old veteran warrior suddenly spring up fireballs from his fingure? Seriously..

That has all changed. I hope you enjoy this 4th installment of Project Conversion!


http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4183/serendibsorcerer.jpg

~~~~~~~~~~~~~The Sorcerer~~~~~~~~~~~~~


SORCERER
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th
1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Eschew Materials, Magic Aura|5|2
2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Sense Magic|5|3
3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Slow Aging|5|3|2
4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4||5|3|3
5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Improved Metamagic|5|4|3|2
6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Bonus Feat|6|4|3|3
7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5||6|4|4|3|2
8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|Arcane Subsistence (Food and Drink)|6|4|4|3|3
9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6||6|5|4|4|3|2
10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Enduring Magic|6|5|4|4|3|3
11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7||6|5|5|4|4|3|2
12th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8|Bonus Feat|6|5|5|4|4|3|3
13th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8||6|5|5|5|4|4|3|2
14th|
+7/+2|
+4|
+4|
+9||6|6|5|5|4|4|4|4
15th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+9|Greater Metamagic|6|6|5|5|5|4|4|3|2
16th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10|Arcane Subsistence (Sleep)|6|6|6|5|5|4|4|3|3
17th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10||6|6|6|5|5|5|4|4|3|2
18th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11|Bonus Feat|6|6|6|6|5|5|4|4|3|3
19th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11||6|6|6|6|5|5|5|4|4|3
20th|
+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+12|Living Magic|6|6|6|6|6|5|5|4|4|3[/table]


Hit Die: d6.
Base Attack: Poor.
Saves: Poor Fortitude, Poor Reflex, Good Willpower.

Class Skills
A sorcerers class skills (and the key ability for each) are Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.


Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Sorcerers are skilled with all simple weapons, a single martial weapon of their choice, and light armor. Sorcerers spells require less complicated movements due to their innate nature, as such a sorcerer does not suffer arcane spell failure to sorcerer spells when wearing light armor.

Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the wizard/sorcerer list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must. To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcererís spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcererís Charisma modifier. Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
A sorcererís selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding.
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that, a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spellís level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells heíll cast.

Eschew Materials: Sorcerers gain Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at 1st level.

Magic Aura (Su): Sorcerers are sheathed in an magical aura that can be detected with spells such as detect magic. The power of this aura is equal to their sorcerer level.

Sense Magic (Su): At 2nd level, the sorcerer can use an effect identical to the Detect Magic spell at will with a effective caster level equal to her sorcerer level.

Slow Aging (Ex): Being born with magic in the blood slows slows the aging process. Starting at 3rd level, the sorcerer divides his level by 2. This results in the number of years that must pass for him to age one year. However, in areas that negate or suppress the magic in his blood, such as an anti-magic field, the sorcerer ages normally.

Improved Metamagic (Ex): At 5th level, the sorcerer may apply metamagic feats to his spells with no additional casting time.

Bonus Feats: At 6th level, and every six levels thereafter the sorcerer gains a bonus metamagic feat. He must meet all prerequisites to take the feat.

Arcane Subsistence (Ex): At 8th level, the sorcerers body becomes so steeped with arcane energy that he no longer needs to eat or drink, drawing his nourishment directly from the web of magic. When he reaches level 16 he doesn't need sleep, instead entering into a deep, meditative trance for half the time he would otherwise have spent sleeping and renewing his body with arcane energies.
Should the sorcerer find himself cut off from his magical energies for a prolonged period of time (such as being forced into a magic-dead area) he needs to eat, drink and sleep normally to survive.

Enduring Magic (Ex): At 10th level the sorcerers magic gains a will to live. Whenever a spell with a duration cast by the sorcerer himself is dispelled, negated or supressed in any way, such as by entering a anti-magic field or being targeted by dispel magic, the spell continues to function for a number or rounds equal to 3 + the sorcerers charisma modifier.

Greater Metamagic (Ex): At 15th level, sorcerers are able to reduce some of the cost of using metamagic feats on their spells. They can reduce the cost of a single metamagic spell by 1 level as an immediate action during the casting of the augmented spell. Each day, a sorcerer may apply this effect to a number of spells equal to the sorcerers Charisma modifier (if positive).

Living Magic (Ex): At 20th level, the sorcerers blood is alive with magic, and the sorcerer cannot be denied his gift by any means other then death. A sorcerer who finds himself cut off from his magical energies may continue to cast spells regularly for a number of rounds equal to 3 + his charisma modifier. If the spells cast have durations that would otherwise would be dispelled, negated or suppressed in any way, Enduring Magic takes effect immediately for its duration.

Sorcerer Spells Known
Level/Spells Known
1st-- 4/1
2nd-- 5/2
3rd-- 5/2/1
4th-- 5/3/2
5th-- 5/3/2/1
6th-- 5/3/3/2
7th-- 6/4/3/2/1
8th-- 6/4/3/3/2
9th-- 6/4/4/3/2/1
10th- 6/4/4/3/3/2
11th- 6/5/4/4/3/2/1
12th- 6/5/4/4/3/3/2
13th- 7/5/5/4/4/3/2/1
14th- 7/5/5/4/4/3/3/2
15th- 7/5/5/5/4/4/3/2/1
16th- 7/6/5/5/4/4/3/2/2
17th- 7/6/5/5/5/4/4/3/2/1
18th- 7/6/6/5/5/4/4/3/3/2
19th- 7/6/6/5/5/5/4/3/3/2
20th- 8/6/6/6/5/5/4/4/3/3

Golden-Esque
2009-04-06, 08:01 PM
Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Sorcerers are skilled with all simple weapons, a single martial weapon of their choice, and light armor. Sorcerers spells require less complicated movements due to their innate nature, as such a sorcerer does not suffer arcane spell failure to sorcerer spells when wearing light armor.

No Arcane spell failure seems a little OP to me. Most other classes that ignore Arcane spell failure either have an extremely limited Spell List (See Spellthief and Hexblade) or are Bards. Yeah. Bards. Riiiiiiight.


Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the wizard/sorcerer list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must. To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcererís spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcererís Charisma modifier. Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
A sorcererís selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding.
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that, a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spellís level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells heíll cast.

What do you mean by "unusual" spells. That doesn't seem clear enough to me. Also, I wouldn't call the Spells Per Day / Spells Known you gave the Sorcerer extremely limited.


Eschew Materials: Sorcerers gain Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at 1st level.

I've seen this suggested around and I like it. I think it's a good idea and makes more sense to me then the Familiar.


Magic Aura (Su): Sorcerers are sheathed in an magical aura that can be detected with spells such as detect magic. The power of this aura is equal to their sorcerer level.

I like this one too, but is this going to be something all your Casters have, or is it a Sorcerer thing only?


Sense Magic (Su): At 2nd level, the sorcerer can use an effect identical to the Detect Magic spell at will with a effective caster level equal to her sorcerer level.

Interesting.


Slow Aging (Ex): Being born with magic in the blood slows slows the aging process. Starting at 3rd level, the sorcerer divides his level by 2. This results in the number of years that must pass for him to age one year. However, in areas that negate or supress the magic in his blood, such as an anti-magic field, the sorcerer ages normally.

This seems like an unneeded piece of fluff, and even so it seems kinda lame for a third level ability. I'd try to juggle around, get this higher up, like say, level one.


Improved Metamagic (Ex): At 5th level, the sorcerer may apply metamagic feats to his spells with no additional casting time.

Sorcerers already have this baseline. A Spontaneous Spellcaster adds Metamagic effects to a spell at the instant he or she chooses to cast the spell.


Bonus Feats: At 6th level, and every six levels thereafter the sorcerer gains a bonus metamagic feat. He must meet all prerequisites to take the feat.

Eh, seems to borrow a little much from the Wizard, but I guess three compared to their six isn't too out there. You might want to cut it to level 10 and 20 if you give them too much though.


Arcane Subsistence (Ex): At 8th level, the sorcerers body becomes so steeped with arcane energy that he no longer needs to eat or drink, drawing his nourishment directly from the web of magic. When he reaches level 16 he doesn't need sleep, instead entering into a deep, meditative trance for half the time he would otherwise have spent sleeping and renewing his body with arcane energies.

Should the sorcerer find himself cut off from his magical energies for a prolonged period of time (such as being forced into a magic-dead area) he needs to eat, drink and sleep normally to survive.

More fluff. Cool fluff, but fluff none the less. Typically the "ignore bodily processes" stuff is at higher levels. I'd change it to something like this.

Arcane Substance
At 10th level, the magic in the Sorcerer's blood becomes so sated with arcane magic that he or she no longer needs to sleep. Instead, the Sorcerer trances just like an elf. If the Sorcerer is an elf, the time the elf must trance is cut in half.

At 20th level, the Sorcerer learns how to draw sustenance from the magical ley-lines of the world. The Sorcerer no longer needs to eat or drink and the arcane energy coursing through his body purges him of all alien substances, effectively making him immune to both diseases and poisons.

Should a Sorcerer find his or her self cut off from magical energies for a prolonged period of time (such as being forced into a magic-dead area) he needs to eat, drink and sleep normally to survive and he becomes susceptible to poisons and diseases.


Enduring Magic (Ex): At 10th level the sorcerers magic gains a will to live. Whenever a spell with a duration cast by the sorcerer himself is dispelled, negated or supressed in any way, such as by entering a anti-magic field or being targeted by dispel magic, the spell continues to function for a number or rounds equal to 3 + the sorcerers charisma modifier.

This seems a little OP. Perhaps a bonus to resist Dispel checks instead?


Greater Metamagic (Ex): At 15th level, sorcerers are able to reduce some of the cost of using metamagic feats on their spells. They can reduce the cost of a single metamagic spell by 1 level. Each day, a sorcerer may apply this effect to a number of spells equal to the sorcerers Charisma modifier (if positive).

This also seems a little bit crazy.


Living Magic (Ex): At 20th level, the sorcerers blood is alive with magic, and the sorcerer cannot be denied his gift by any means other then death. A sorcerer who finds himself cut off from his magical energies may continue to cast spells regularly for a number of rounds equal to 3 + his charisma modifier. If the spells cast have durations that would otherwise would be dispelled, negated or supressed in any way, Enduring Magic takes effect immediately for its duration.

I don't really *get* the point of this ability. I don't know if you're trying to make Sorcerers immune to Anti-Magic Zones, but it seems a little over the top.

Jane_Smith
2009-04-06, 08:14 PM
Living magic basicly effects sorcerers when they enter a dead magic zone, an area effected by a violet storm, or anti-magic area. Or when targeted by Sever, a 9th level spell that can actually strip a targets spells, supernatural and spell-like abilities from being used for 1/day per caster level if they fail their save. It basicly gives them a few more rounds of "IM NOT DONE YET BISHS!!!!".

The Greater Metamagic feature can only be used 1 time per spell/metamagic feat per round. I forgot to add as an immediate action. But basicly it can make a Maximized Fireball 5th level instead of 6th level. Which fits the 'raw power' theme of a sorcerer.

You may notice that i have cutt some of the total number of higher-level spells per day to help balance this little issue. And, I added the "casting in light armor" for the same reason i added eschew materials - Their innate spells, they should not have to do anything more then jerk their hand or thrust forward to have their magic activate... you know? The increased hit dice, skill points, light armor (and single martial weapon) also represents the fact that, unlike wizards, sorcerers dont spend their entire lives in libraries to learn their magic.

Also, the reason for the tidbit in spells is basicly they can learn new spells not on the wizard/sorcerer list; Like how a wizard can study and create new, custom spells? The sorcerer, with dm approval, could in effect learn customized spells, such as Cone of Flame instead of Cone of Cold, etc.

JoshuaZ
2009-04-06, 08:55 PM
Sorcerers already have this baseline. A Spontaneous Spellcaster adds Metamagic effects to a spell at the instant he or she chooses to cast the spell.


Not quite. Spontaneous spellcasters have their time for spellcasting increased from a standard action to a full round when they apply metamagic (although many people don't play with this).


I like this a fair bit. But some of it seems overpowered.

I'd make the bonus feats be every 5 levels rather than every 6 (like a wizard) and allow them to also take as bonus feats Spell Focus, or Extra Spell Slot(I think that's its name. It gives you a spell slot of level n-1 where n is your highest spell slot level) or the Extra Spell Known (same idea. Also not sure if I have the name right).

Living Magic as written is seriously broken. I'd maybe allow them to cast spells in an anti-magic field but require a caster level check against a massive DC (like the spell level squared). That way this isn't so abusable but keeps the fluff.

Golden-Esque
2009-04-06, 09:01 PM
Living magic basicly effects sorcerers when they enter a dead magic zone, an area effected by a violet storm, or anti-magic area. Or when targeted by Sever, a 9th level spell that can actually strip a targets spells, supernatural and spell-like abilities from being used for 1/day per caster level if they fail their save. It basicly gives them a few more rounds of "IM NOT DONE YET BISHS!!!!".

So the idea is that since Sorcerers are born with a natural affinity for magic, magic isn't as quick to be stripped away from the Sorcerer as it is for someone who learns their magic (Wizard) or someone who is given their powers by a deity (Cleric/Druid/Paladin/Ranger). It seems like a good idea, but you might want to instead change it to an ability that doesn't automatically activate, make it something the Sorcerer needs to literally strip out of his body with all their effort, like from a successful Will save or something.


The Greater Metamagic feature can only be used 1 time per spell/metamagic feat per round. I forgot to add as an immediate action. But basicly it can make a Maximized Fireball 5th level instead of 6th level. Which fits the 'raw power' theme of a sorcerer.

I think you need to be careful of how much "Raw Power" you give to the Sorcerer. After all, Wizards have less HP then Sorcerers, and like you said magic comes naturally to a Sorcerer while Wizards give their entire lives to their powers. I'd imagine the "Raw Power" is a better theme for a Wizard then a Sorcerer, who might be more lackadaisical in their training then a Wizard.


You may notice that i have cut some of the total number of higher-level spells per day to help balance this little issue. And, I added the "casting in light armor" for the same reason i added eschew materials - Their innate spells, they should not have to do anything more then jerk their hand or thrust forward to have their magic activate... you know? The increased hit dice, skill points, light armor (and single martial weapon) also represents the fact that, unlike wizards, sorcerers dont spend their entire lives in libraries to learn their magic.

Giving the Sorcerer Armor is another reason why, I think, "Raw Power" is not a good niche for them to fill. They should have power, and a lot of it, but it should not be more then the Wizard, who doesn't get armor and has less health. Sorcerers don't spend their entire lives studying magic, but even as natural born prodigies, Wizards DO spend all their life learning magic, so they damn well better be better then those slack-jaw Sorcerers ^_~.

Also, the reason for the tidbit in spells is basicly they can learn new spells not on the wizard/sorcerer list; Like how a wizard can study and create new, custom spells? The sorcerer, with dm approval, could in effect learn customized spells, such as Cone of Flame instead of Cone of Cold, etc.[/QUOTE]

Maybe try giving Sorcerers access to any one of Spell Thematics (Player's Guide to Faerun), Energy Subsitution (PHB, I think), or any of the Widen / Altershape / whatever spells as their Bonus Feats. That way a Player can literally customize all of their spells with their class features over time, really giving the sense that a Sorcerer is a natural born magic user.

Faulty
2009-04-06, 09:35 PM
Special: The Sorcerer class may only be taken at 1st level. Once taken at first level, they are free to multiclass in and out of Sorcerer, however other characters cannot take levels in sorcerer after 1st level.

Why couldn't someone with Sorcerous talent start doing one thing and then later begin untapping their arcane potential?


and light armor. Sorcerers spells require less complicated movements due to their innate nature, as such a sorcerer does not suffer arcane spell failure to sorcerer spells when wearing light armor.

This seems more than a tad OP. Part of the trade off for the immense power arcane casters have is being an easier and weaker target.


Slow Aging (Ex): Being born with magic in the blood slows slows the aging process. Starting at 3rd level, the sorcerer divides his level by 2. This results in the number of years that must pass for him to age one year. However, in areas that negate or suppress the magic in his blood, such as an anti-magic field, the sorcerer ages normally.

This is a bit confusing. So he ages slower and slower as he gains levels? If he gains, say, 3 levels in a year, what does that amount to? It seems a bit convaluted. Maybe bump this up a few levels and have him age at quarter or half speed flat?


Enduring Magic (Ex): At 10th level the sorcerers magic gains a will to live. Whenever a spell with a duration cast by the sorcerer himself is dispelled, negated or supressed in any way, such as by entering a anti-magic field or being targeted by dispel magic, the spell continues to function for a number or rounds equal to 3 + the sorcerers charisma modifier.

This seems like a bit much for a level 10 ability. You should revise it or bump it up a few levels. A possible change:

Allow the Sorceror to make a Spellcraft check against the DC or check of the effect which negated his magic. If he succeeds, his spell effect remains for a number of rounds equal to 1 + half his CHA modifier.


Living Magic (Ex): At 20th level, the sorcerers blood is alive with magic, and the sorcerer cannot be denied his gift by any means other then death. A sorcerer who finds himself cut off from his magical energies may continue to cast spells regularly for a number of rounds equal to 3 + his charisma modifier. If the spells cast have durations that would otherwise would be dispelled, negated or suppressed in any way, Enduring Magic takes effect immediately for its duration.

I'd suggest 1 + half his CHA modifier here, as well, or at most 1d3 + half his CHA. 3 + his CHA modifier at level 20+ would be a bit much. Between gains in CHA, buffing items and spells that boost his CHA, any attempts to stop his magic would be null. When you think about it, that's unfair to, say, other casters who are neutered in anti-magic fields, or grappled fighters, or whatever.

Aquillion
2009-04-06, 09:48 PM
Not only that, what irked me the most was the fact people could so freely multiclass into sorcerer! Your -born- with it. You either go threw puberty with it, or it doesn't pop up. That is how all sorcerers i have read personally work, and thats how wotc has described them in the only core handbook. So.. how does a 30 year old veteran warrior suddenly spring up fireballs from his fingure? Seriously..Why wouldn't a fighter suddenly, spontaneously have their latent sorcerer abilities emerge? It's not broken or imbalanced, so why are you forbidding it? It makes more sense than a fighter suddenly learning wizardly magic that would take someone else years of study after one short adventure, say.

Nothing says that a Sorcerer's abilities have to be obvious from birth; they can suddenly emerge without warning later in life. Alternatively, they could always have had the potential, but never focused on nurturing it until later.

Jane_Smith
2009-04-06, 10:07 PM
Thats the point of the special level restriction. You can start as a level 1 sorcerer, and advance like.. 10 levels into fighter before you decide "hmm.. this could get better" and level sorcerer more. Either way - it acts as a spark. You either have it, or you dont.

Death's Shadow
2009-04-06, 10:09 PM
I like the whole restriction to only being able to take Sorcerer at 1st level, plays on the fact that Sorcerers have these abilities due to their heritage. In fact I would also suggest working out something that plays on that like say bonuses for having demonic, celestial, draconic bloodlines and so on.

Nice idea and concept, could use some work but hey all homebrew is a work in progress man.

Small question though.. why not give them something to the drum of a passive magic effect such as if a spell like Cone of Cold kills an opponent by several points over their hp that the Sorcerer gets those 'overflow' points of damage as a defensive aura of a small period of time or even they can burn a spell to do so.

Just a thought.

Faulty
2009-04-06, 10:12 PM
Thats the point of the special level restriction. You can start as a level 1 sorcerer, and advance like.. 10 levels into fighter before you decide "hmm.. this could get better" and level sorcerer more. Either way - it acts as a spark. You either have it, or you dont.

Why can't you have the spark, but simply not develop it? If you're a naturally gifted poet but spend 5 years of your life studying chemical engineering before trying out poetry, your natural talent for poetry is not going to be forfeit because you didn't focus on it initially.

Jane_Smith
2009-04-06, 10:18 PM
... <_< I think Death got it, you simply arnt for some reason. Thus the point of the "1st level" rule; the 1st level of sorcerer --IS THE SPARK--! A few cantrips and minor spells the character possesses over time, ghost sounds.. You can roleplay the minor cantrips and spells going off at times of heightened emotion, so on.

But, that would require roleplaying of course - the question is can you hold back your spell-leash for one hole level until you multiclass? Remember 1st level characters -typically- are in their teens/young adult stages of life.

Death's Shadow
2009-04-06, 10:42 PM
Think of sorcerers in a way as mutants... your born with it while its true it can awaken later in life the chances are few and far between that it will awaken after the age of say 24 or so. Thats the way I see it anyhow...*shrugs* then again I am weird.:smallbiggrin:

Idea for something you could add fourth
Wrath Arcane: When a Sorcerer performs a spell that effects damage against any given target and said spell slays the given target any extra points of damage dealt will be transfers into a nimbus of arcane energy of that spells given type that will last for a number of round equal to the damage dealt over + the Sorcerer's charisma modifier. This energy deals slowly the same dice type of damage in that given type to each hostile beings within 5 ft. /Character levels in Sorcerer class. However a Sorcerer can dispel or suppress this by making a will check equal to the spell's level+ the sorcerer's charisma modifier+5, if successful the spell is suppress until released in a sort of flash that deals all the stored damage to everything save the sorcerer within the radius of the Sorcerer. At 10th and higher a Sorcerer can narrow and focus this effect by making a will check of spell's level+ the sorcerer's charisma modifier+5, if successful they may alter the blast radius to their wishes.
Example: Marcus is a 4th level Sorcerer with a charisma score of 18, he casts a Scouring Ray at a Kobold Warrior and deals lets say 25 points of fire damage to him(One cooked Kobold) but the Kobold's Hp was only 12 so Marcus gets a nimbus of fiery arcane energy for 17 rounds(13 points of over damage + 4 from his Charisma modifier) that deals 1d6 damage and expands for 20 ft.

What do you think?

Kylarra
2009-04-06, 10:47 PM
That sounds like an excuse to carry around a bag of rats honestly. The idea is kind of interesting, but too easily abused by simply carrying around/conjuring tiny easy to smash things.

Jane_Smith
2009-04-06, 10:49 PM
To easily broken and you forgot that creatures have -10 hp, so in your above example it would have done 22 damage to the kobold and had 3 damage remaining.

Death's Shadow
2009-04-06, 10:52 PM
The Sack of Rats issue:Not quite, the spells have to targeting an opponent but I can see where this could be an issue. The issue is for the DM if this feature is even added to watch the player and to remind the players that if one carries a bag of rats then those are pets and killing pets will get the EPA after them..

Seriously though.. the special requirement that the target of the spell must be hostile should have been added... a bit of mishap on my part.


Negative Hp:Thats if your playing with the rule that non player creatures can go to negative hp.


Sorry for hijacking the thread.

Faulty
2009-04-06, 11:50 PM
I still think the idea is a tad ridiculous. What about a feat called like "Arcane Spark" or something, which allows a person with a Charisma score of at least 11 (or more) to take levels of Sorcerer?

Jane_Smith
2009-04-07, 12:10 AM
Sounds like your trying to re-create psion/wild talent feat. Should I get the whacking mallet out for mentioning the vile psionics?! RAWR! :smallyuk: hehe. Plus, who said i was not making a feat that would bypass the level restriction? Well, in truth i wasnt.. but i was thinking of possibly a prestige-class style sorcerer for those players who.. -cough- 'develop later' in life. Something like a mystic theurge that lets them advance slowly into the sorcery arts and in their old class a bit.

Faulty
2009-04-07, 02:11 AM
I don't see the similarity to Wild Talent really...

...and I happen to like Psionics. :smalleek:

Jane_Smith
2009-04-07, 02:15 AM
Sorry, im thinking of d20 modern. Wild Talent is a feat required to take levels in telepath, etc.

PumpkinJack
2009-04-07, 09:39 AM
I always thought the sorcerer, if any class, should have the Use Magic Device skill as a class skill.

Also, why not allow sorcerers to pick up non-wizard spells at irregular levels? Could add some variety to what you can do with them.

Lappy9000
2009-04-07, 10:30 AM
This seems more than a tad OP. Part of the trade off for the immense power arcane casters have is being an easier and weaker target.Light armor proficiency isn't OP. Trust me, that +4 AC bonus at first level is amazing 'cause it keeps kobolds from mopping the floor with you.

Personally, I think that this fix is fantastic. The abilities are cool and although some aren't particularly useful, they're full of fluffiness (besides, you're a friggin' full caster. Should be grateful to get any class abilities[Unless you're a druid]).

The addition of a melee weapon is a nice touch, although in regards to the restriction, I'm going to side with the rest of the folks here. I've always thought that it would be a really cool role-playing event when your fighter's latent arcane energies upon seeing the death of his loyal comrade (naturally he's had them since birth; they've just never surfaced). Think of the role-playing potential!

Gotta say, though, looks good. Just be sure to boost the rest of the classes if you're giving sorcerers so many class abilities (I haven't read all your fixes yet. Getting around to it).

Telonius
2009-04-07, 12:50 PM
I'll throw this out for consideration ... the Eschew Materials bonus feat applies only to spells gained from Sorcerer levels. Not that I can see a Wizard losing a caster level just to pick up Eschew, but it seems to make sense that it would be Sorcerer-only. And if the Sorcerer wants to multiclass out to Wizard later, would his inherent magical-ness really help him not need to gather unrelated components?

Jane_Smith
2009-04-07, 01:46 PM
Now see; the problem with that is the old-school "If your going to give someone something, you gotta give it to everyone." effect.

If i make eschew materials sorcerer only; id have to make their 6th, 12th and 18th level bonus feats sorcerer-only to to also fit the theme, id have to make all their class features only effect its spells, etc.

Then id have to do the same with the wizard's bonus feats. Why should someone have to take a feat twice to gain its effects just to multicass? I consider it like - maybe the sorcerer, if it went into wizardry or divine magic, maybe it learns how to handle new spells with a added insight from its innate abilities which lets it wield all magic just a little bit easier?

Aquillion
2009-04-07, 02:05 PM
Thats the point of the special level restriction. You can start as a level 1 sorcerer, and advance like.. 10 levels into fighter before you decide "hmm.. this could get better" and level sorcerer more. Either way - it acts as a spark. You either have it, or you dont.
Why? You're saying that if I want my character to be born with the potential to be a sorcerer (even if I'm not sure I ever want to develop it or learn a single spell), I have to be a weaker fighter or rogue.

There's absolutely no reason for that. Characters who multiclass to sorcerer are going to be, almost without exception, weakening themselves anyway (because of the way magic scales, entering it late is almost always a bad deal.) But beyond that I just can't see your logic. Why do you find "Sorcerer abilities I didn't know I'd inherited suddenly manifest!" to be such a problematic thing? The player is paying for it (very, very steeply, by giving up their progression in their old class); it's not like it's a particularly good choice from an optimization standpoint, never mind overpowered.

So why not just let players do it? What's so wrong about someone suddenly having a moment when their latent talents emerge?

Jane_Smith
2009-04-07, 02:22 PM
-shrugs- To me, favored souls and sorcerers are not things you just 'train' when you want to. They sparks of something beyond your reasoning that your BORN with. You have no control over when it develops originally!

This is an exact qoute -;

"Sorcerers develope rudimentary powers at puberty. Their first spells are incomplete, spontaneous, uncontrolled, and sometimes dangerous. A household with a budding sorcerer in it may be troubled by strange sounds or lights, which can create the impression that the place is haunted. Eventually, the young sorcerer understands the power he has been wielding."

It says, right their, they develop sorcery abilities that early in life. Not "later", not when their 30 years old or 400 in the case of say, elves.

Ill make a feat "Dormant Blood" or something, a 1st-level only feat that lets you take sorcerer later perhaps? Lets you cast prestidigitation three times per day as a 1st level caster, requires 11+ cha? But my opinion is its not something you suddenly 'pop into', and I personally dislike the idea of people multiclassomg into it willy-nilly just because they feel like it. Heck, sudden boss fight you want to spawn your sorcery powers? Ha, chain reaction, so does the villians while were at it! :smallcool:

Telonius
2009-04-07, 02:27 PM
Now see; the problem with that is the old-school "If your going to give someone something, you gotta give it to everyone." effect.

If i make eschew materials sorcerer only; id have to make their 6th, 12th and 18th level bonus feats sorcerer-only to to also fit the theme, id have to make all their class features only effect its spells, etc.

Then id have to do the same with the wizard's bonus feats. Why should someone have to take a feat twice to gain its effects just to multicass? I consider it like - maybe the sorcerer, if it went into wizardry or divine magic, maybe it learns how to handle new spells with a added insight from its innate abilities which lets it wield all magic just a little bit easier?

Thing is, if you do give it to anyone you have given it to everyone, unless you restrict multiclassing. Again, I don't think it would be overpowering, just a quirky little design element. If you think it's not a problem for the fluff, then go for it. :smallsmile:

NakedCelt
2009-04-07, 09:20 PM
I've never figured out why anybody would multiclass in two spellcasting classes under standard D&D rules. OK, you get a wider range of spells and more spells per day... but the spells are all really pathetic for your character level. Wizard/sorcerer multiclassing makes the least sense of all, because you don't even get any more spells on your spell list. It would make far more sense to have some kind of combinatory rules where you gain spell levels as fast as you would in a single class, but you have to average out the spells per day somehow instead of adding them up.

I played a bard/rogue/illusionist once -- briefly. Fluff-wise he was great, I had all sorts of ideas for his character, but when it came to actual gameplay he was by far the weakest in the party.

Personally I think the fluff for spellcasters in the core rules is all up the wop anyway.

Kylarra
2009-04-07, 09:37 PM
Pigeonholed fluff for the sake of pigeonholed fluff never sits well with me. :smallfrown: Could be why I enjoy the paladin variants and ignore alignment restrictions in general.

Jane_Smith
2009-04-07, 09:43 PM
Their are soooo many prestige classes that allow you to continue spellcasting with another class.

Some examples for a Rogue/caster mix? Arcane Trickster and Unseen Seer advanced sneak attack damage, full arcane spellcasting progression, a good save, average base attack, moderate hit points.. cat really complain.
Fighter/casters? Eldritch knight, and Spellsword come to mind. Or, a caster who acts like a meat-shield fighter? Abjurant Knight is always nifty.
Paladin/casters? Holy Scourge. Very fun for Paladin/Sorcerer meshs - it gives you Arcae Smites 1/-2/day, which give your spells some nasty buffs on evil enemys.
Caster/Casters? Jesus.. to many to recount. Falchion lyrist, mystic theurge, ultimate magus, the druid/wizard/cleric one that combines "THREE". And then theirs even this new stuff for warlocks out - like a prestige class for warlock/wizards.

It is very easy to advance in two classes at once with the proper tools at your disposal, so dont say its worthless/waste/weak.


--- And fine, sense its such a big dang deal, ill get rid of the dang level restriction. :smallannoyed:

VelvetThunder
2009-04-08, 12:41 AM
As I've said with all the Variants you've posted thus far... I really like what you've done here. "even the level restriction" That said... The only change I'd make to this class would....... Ok well after looking over the class for what I was going to say needed changing.. I can't find anything. So No complaints. I look foward to the next installment in your conversion project.

lsfreak
2009-04-08, 12:53 AM
Just throwing this out, to try and give ideas and try and help explain where I think some people are coming from.

The fluff says that a sorcerer's powers start manifesting in puberty. That by no means implies they actively try to nurture them. I could see someone being downright terrified of it and actively trying to hide that strange things happen around them, or the family being terrified and trying to keep them from experimenting or sending them to some religious order or something. They join the military/mercenaries/monastery, take a level of something else. Utterly ignore their powers as much as they can, so that they can't yet even grasp a simple spell, because that spark has been actively doused in water by the sorcerer themselves or someone else.

Then after learning a bit more about sorcerers, and that they're not necessarily some dangerous freak, they might try experimenting with them a bit more. Starting out simple, gradually building up, until they fully awaken those powers and gain their first level of sorcerer.

Campaign-specific, requiring sorcerers as level 1 might work (or, my preference would be level 1 or a level-1 only feat that allows you to take sorcerer later). As a general fix/variant for anyone, I'd leave that out as fluff.

EDIT: And actually, Golden-Esque, the base sorcerer description is the one that describes the spell list as "extremely limited" and allows "unusual" sources for spells. It's implied that sorcerers can gain non-sorcerer/wizard spells, simply that the vast majority will come from that list.

Jane_Smith
2009-04-08, 01:27 PM
Exactly - They could even take cleric/druid spells if they wished. thus negating the need for making a favored soul class.

TSED
2009-04-11, 05:56 AM
Oh, and you mentioned that you just couldn't see a Favoured Soul spontaneously coming about after adventuring for a year.


Why not?


Let's say here's some fighter. Good kid, not so bright, but makes good decisions.

And yes he's out saving the village from Orc_Horde_05, but he's doing other things too. Saving kittens from trees. Getting the kids' ball from the other side of the fence. Sharing his chocolate icecream.

Some benevolent deity notices and starts giving him little hand outs to help him out.

Next thing you know...



Alternately, swap that around. He WAS a good kid, fell in with a bad crowd. Starts doing terrible things. Evil God notices, starts giving him little hand outs...

Jane_Smith
2009-04-11, 06:43 AM
In my opinion favored souls are innate casters just like sorcerers with celestial, infernal, etc blood in them. "Gods" could hand it out if that went with your own opinion or beleif in how they work, but to me i consider favored souls to also be a inborn class. Your either born with it or not - and in my opinion their should be nothing keeping the favored soul from having 1 theme and having an alignment/style that completely differs.

Example, a favored soul that was born and raised by a good family, hits puberty, and learns she has necromantic powers, etc. She didnt chose them, no god gave them to her, but some latent fiendish energy WAY down the family line decided "hmm, she looks fun, ill torment her! -buzz-".... over time, shes exiled for this, nearly killed, feared, etc over powers she didnt choose. This doesnt taint her - it only makes her stronger, and slowly she begins to try to help other outcasts, learning to control the abilities and how to hide them.

Or, a favored soul with powers of positive energy, healing, etc, falling into that' bad crowd'. I dont believe favored souls should have anything to do with deities giving squat to them. :P

TSED
2009-04-11, 07:12 AM
In my opinion favored souls are innate casters just like sorcerers with celestial, infernal, etc blood in them. "Gods" could hand it out if that went with your own opinion or beleif in how they work, but to me i consider favored souls to also be a inborn class. Your either born with it or not - and in my opinion their should be nothing keeping the favored soul from having 1 theme and having an alignment/style that completely differs.

Example, a favored soul that was born and raised by a good family, hits puberty, and learns she has necromantic powers, etc. She didnt chose them, no god gave them to her, but some latent fiendish energy WAY down the family line decided "hmm, she looks fun, ill torment her! -buzz-".... over time, shes exiled for this, nearly killed, feared, etc over powers she didnt choose. This doesnt taint her - it only makes her stronger, and slowly she begins to try to help other outcasts, learning to control the abilities and how to hide them.

Or, a favored soul with powers of positive energy, healing, etc, falling into that' bad crowd'. I dont believe favored souls should have anything to do with deities giving squat to them. :P


Soooo you get to decide what WotC's intellectual property's fluff is on the internet now? I mean, sure, you can do that in-game. But that doesn't mean you're right.

It says that's one POSSIBILITY for favoured souls. But it talks about deities providing the spells in CDiv, talks about how that's only one theory, etc. etc. Oh, and this gem of a quote:
"Unlike clerics, favored souls are not able to devote themselves to a cause or a source of divine power instead of a deity."

In short, that + alignment restriction means you're homebrewing favoured souls as soon as you're putting those backgrounds in. Then you're arguing that your way is how favoured souls 'are.' I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Your ideas work fine in houserules or actual games or what ever, but they're NOT how the class was written originally.

Jane_Smith
2009-04-11, 08:02 AM
Problem is... your treating my sorcerer as the wotc's favored soul. So what if i made a mistake in comparing it to sorcerer? This discussion, this -thread- is not even about them, so please, take your beef with favored souls elsewhere. This is for the variant sorcerer, and just because I presumed (due to lack of having complete divine) what a favored soul was like flavor-wise, doesnt give you any right to jump on my case about it. So please, go make another thread about it, etc. But stop railroading my sorcerer please? :smallannoyed:

TSED
2009-04-11, 08:15 AM
It was an extended metaphor as to why your 1st-level-only mechanic was a bad idea (shutting out character concepts for no real reason), by countering an argument you provided. I didn't mean to offend, and I'd recommend you grow a slightly thicker skin so you can recognize constructive criticisms that are indeed that and not personal attacks. I've read all or most of your variant classes as many of them have good ideas and noticed I am not the first to suggest such a thing.

Jane_Smith
2009-04-11, 08:21 AM
I got rid of the 1st level requirement, i understood it was a mistake, I dont need people continuing to make me understand that , now do I? I have my personal opinion on how things work - that will not change, i still personally believe it should be first level only.

But im fair and understanding enough to see others do not see it that way, and considering this overwhelming support for "1st level only is bad" attitude, i removed it. Despite my -personal opinions- of some classes, im trying to make them more versatile and open-ended for everyone's enjoyment - not just my own.

The issue has been settled, my skin is 'fine' ( i just dont like people repeating nonsense that has nothing to do with the thread and knocking it off course ), and thats that.


Edit: Sorry if i come off as to vicious, but i havent had a good nights sleep in 4 days, and im a little grouchy, so i give my apologies.

TSED
2009-04-11, 08:29 AM
I have my personal opinion on how things work - that will not change, i still personally believe it should be first level only.


So I'm not allowed to try to change your opinion?
*Note the word 'try.'


Do you see why we have our opinions? I think that's a pretty important step. I see why you think it should be first level only, however, I think you're overlooking what actually having a class level means, among other things. To paraphrase you, "well all the stuff I've read about them said they were young teenagers" is not a particularly compelling argument with fiction. Why can't you have original character concepts?

Hmm. I propose we discuss this more in-depth in PMs. I'll not respond if you respond to this here, for the sake of your thread's topicity. Either way, I'm off to bed. Night, and because I don't think I've said it yet, good work on the classes.