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ErrantX
2009-04-06, 07:54 PM
I decided I'd set up a new chat thread to discuss so I can be in control of the OP and start over with a fresh slate on #10.

Current Contest is: Live and Die by the Sword (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136489)

Past Contests:
Contest XV: Where The Wyld Things Are (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131375)
Contest XIV: Hybrid Theory (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126592)
Contest XIII: Music and Lyrics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121195)
Contest XII: Can we Rebuild it? Yes we can! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116389)
Contest XI: Fallen, yet not Forgotten (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111855)
Contest X: Draw, Partner! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108730)
Contest IX: It's Morphin' Time! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105490)
Contest VIII: Bow down to my Fist! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101782)
Contest VII: It's Elementary! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98294)
Contest VI: The Mind is a Terrible Thing to Waste (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95505)
Contest V: Champion of the Common Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92606)
Contest IV: My Faith is Unswerving (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89760)
Contest III: We Band of Brothers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86443)
Contest II: Soul Power! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84454&highlight=Contest)
Contest I: Test My Sword, Meet Your End (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81990&highlight=Contest)

Picture Contests (by the Witchking)
Current Contest: TBA
Worth a Thousand Words II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125849)
Worth a Thousand Words 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6512299) - The Witchlamp by TSED

-X

Bobmufin52
2009-04-06, 09:45 PM
This seems like the theam and I have an idea for a class, but one question. Are we supose to make up the firearms the class is supose to use?

ErrantX
2009-04-06, 09:57 PM
Either cite examples from books (book name and page reference) or in the case of a gnomish artificer BFG wielder, you may want to make up your own. I'll be more specific and place that in the contest heading.

-X

Bobmufin52
2009-04-06, 10:05 PM
Either cite examples from books (book name and page reference) or in the case of a gnomish artificer BFG wielder, you may want to make up your own. I'll be more specific and place that in the contest heading.

-X

K, thanks, I was just wondering since my class idea needs a bit of an originaly disinged gun.

boomwolf
2009-04-08, 08:22 AM
Does this competition only count "gun" guns, or anything similar? (IE-flamethrowers, RPG and other WW2 tech stuff)
Maybe lower tech? say ancient Asian bombs and rockets?

ErrantX
2009-04-08, 02:56 PM
Does this competition only count "gun" guns, or anything similar? (IE-flamethrowers, RPG and other WW2 tech stuff)
Maybe lower tech? say ancient Asian bombs and rockets?

That's totally cool. I never thought of that actually, but I'm totally cool with letting that fly. I can't wait to see what you come up with, grenadiers and bombardiers don't get enough love. Remember, if you're homebrewing weapons as well, you should include them somewhere in your post.

-X

dyslexicfaser
2009-04-08, 10:12 PM
Okay, I know I want to make a Pecos Bill PrC (up to and including the ability to lasso and ride absolutely anything), I'm just not sure how to manage it... yet.

ErrantX
2009-04-08, 10:19 PM
Okay, I know I want to make a Pecos Bill PrC (up to and including the ability to lasso and ride absolutely anything), I'm just not sure how to manage it... yet.

Hmmm... take the normal abilities of the lasso, and perhaps consider allowing it to be used for things like ranged grapples/pins and of course the trip attack, perhaps disarms as well. Just remember, the class has to be capable of doing something with a firearm of some variety. We're not necessarily looking for cowboys, we're looking for gunslingers of all varieties.

-X

dyslexicfaser
2009-04-08, 10:39 PM
The lasso already exists in DnD? I had no idea.

ErrantX
2009-04-08, 10:55 PM
The lasso already exists in DnD? I had no idea.

Book of Exalted Deeds I think has it. Non-lethal weapons and the like. Nothing says you can't make one yourself, of course.

-X

Krimm_Blackleaf
2009-04-08, 11:35 PM
I had an idea for a warforged PrC that starts with something like a flint-lock that retracts to eventually something like an energy cannon that fits in their torso.

ErrantX
2009-04-08, 11:44 PM
I had an idea for a warforged PrC that starts with something like a flint-lock that retracts to eventually something like an energy cannon that fits in their torso.

Megaman? :D Go for it, sounds good to me.

-X

Krimm_Blackleaf
2009-04-08, 11:46 PM
Megaman? :D Go for it, sounds good to me.

-X

...Oh my god you're right, I'm going to be making Megaman.

Pramxnim
2009-04-09, 01:11 AM
Go for it, Krimm. We all want Megaman in D&D, don't we?

YES WE DO!

boomwolf
2009-04-10, 04:17 AM
Now I am probebly pushing it, but I have a great idea I wonna make a PrC for anyway, Alchemy is considered plausible theme for this contest? (making potions and bombs, excelling in using them.)
Naturally as I have magic's domination over things this alchemist is non-magical, and brews more of chemical then alchemical materials (yet considered alchemical for the game to handle without a heart-attack or chemistry nurdaration.)

ErrantX
2009-04-10, 05:14 PM
Now I am probebly pushing it, but I have a great idea I wonna make a PrC for anyway, Alchemy is considered plausible theme for this contest? (making potions and bombs, excelling in using them.)
Naturally as I have magic's domination over things this alchemist is non-magical, and brews more of chemical then alchemical materials (yet considered alchemical for the game to handle without a heart-attack or chemistry nurdaration.)

Well, rockets are fine because they need some sort of launching device and so long as the grenades used also have a launching device (i.e. not thrown by the character, but shot from a grenade launcher-type weapon) it's fine. So long as your stuff is fire and/or shot from a gun/launcher then it's kosher. This is the art of gunslinging after all. I will make sure to specify this in the contest rules now.

-X

Xallace
2009-04-10, 05:35 PM
Go for it, Krimm. We all want Megaman in D&D, don't we?

YES WE DO!

AMEN, BROTHER!

I think I'll use Sorcery and Steam's firearms as a base, since they're Open Gaming Material anyway.

Thinking out loud:
Gun-warlock? Nah, to obvious. "Angel-Eye?" Holy marksman? That's got potential, but I can do better. I'll have to think on this for a little while.

ErrantX
2009-04-10, 05:41 PM
AMEN, BROTHER!

I think I'll use Sorcery and Steam's firearms as a base, since they're Open Gaming Material anyway.

Thinking out loud:
Gun-warlock? Nah, to obvious. "Angel-Eye?" Holy marksman? That's got potential, but I can do better. I'll have to think on this for a little while.

Works for me as far as guns are concerned. OGL is my very favorite.

And yeah... Gun-warlock? That sounds actually quite bad ass. Angel-Eye sounds pretty neat too, I love the idea of that sort of thing. Reminds me of Trinity Blood.

Seems like I've got a lot of interesting concepts brewing out there, I can't wait to see them!

-X

DracoDei
2009-04-11, 02:49 AM
Put the links to ALL the previous contests into the first post some time (use reply on old thread, copy, back out of replay, then edit the first post of this thread).

In other news I THINK I SHOULD actually be able to an entry done this time... will be duel-semi-automatic repeater crossbow weilding Gnomes who use extradimensional magazines and ride blink-dogs into battle with magical saddles that let them Blink and Dimension Door with the dog.

boomwolf
2009-04-11, 05:15 AM
Gunlock......DIBS!

Xallace
2009-04-11, 08:45 AM
Gunlock......DIBS!

Works for me, that just narrows down my idea list.

Now I only have 6 to choose between! Yay!

ErrantX
2009-04-15, 08:11 PM
@Samb

Nice entry! Flavorful and neat. I really enjoyed the idea of fusing the psicrystal into the gun (reminds me vaguely of the magelock pistols of the Gunmages of Iron Kingdoms, but only vaguely) and how its powers and use change. Table is a little confusing, in that you placed the +1 manifester level bit inside of the special abilities area (I'm not harping to fix it, do as you like) but the powers are pretty solid.

At first I was a little concerned over the fact that the revolver's chamber had no bullet bores (because, well, what if the character wants to fire his gun with an actual bullet and not spend power points?) but it's not terrible expensive to use. Now, one thing I was confused about was how your were rating your damage, 2dwhat? Example: "Bolt shot: uses bullets created out of the bolt power to deal 2d (dice determined by round size) damage" I don't understand what this means, please clarify?

Lastly, bonus feat list is a little expansive. Trim it down a couple categories I'd say or give it a specific list of feats to pick from. That's my nitpick there.

Overall, I really dig your class. Flavorful and unique to say the least. Great first entry!

-X

Samb
2009-04-16, 12:50 AM
@Samb

Nice entry! Flavorful and neat. I really enjoyed the idea of fusing the psicrystal into the gun (reminds me vaguely of the magelock pistols of the Gunmages of Iron Kingdoms, but only vaguely) and how its powers and use change. Table is a little confusing, in that you placed the +1 manifester level bit inside of the special abilities area (I'm not harping to fix it, do as you like) but the powers are pretty solid.

At first I was a little concerned over the fact that the revolver's chamber had no bullet bores (because, well, what if the character wants to fire his gun with an actual bullet and not spend power points?) but it's not terrible expensive to use. Now, one thing I was confused about was how your were rating your damage, 2dwhat? Example: "Bolt shot: uses bullets created out of the bolt power to deal 2d (dice determined by round size) damage" I don't understand what this means, please clarify?

Lastly, bonus feat list is a little expansive. Trim it down a couple categories I'd say or give it a specific list of feats to pick from. That's my nitpick there.

Overall, I really dig your class. Flavorful and unique to say the least. Great first entry!

-X

About the damage system, 2d means two dice. Damage is based on round size so if you had .45 rounds 2d would mean 2d6, while a .50 round would deal 2d8 (all off of MSRD). I'm not sure how to make that clearer, but I concede it is confusing. I'll work on that.

I purposely made it so that this PrC was completely reliant on his PSP to deal damage. I guess I could add that in order to fire normal bullets you would need to change the cylinder and hammer. Not a practical option in combat but doable.

Agreed on bonus feats. i'll change that.


And thanks for the feedback!!!


PS I made this PrC under the assumption that psicrystals gain feats. it is not a typo in the sample encounter.

TSED
2009-04-16, 02:07 PM
Well, some one had to make a classic gun-fu man.


I think I may have dumped a bit too much into the PrC though. Shouldn't be that hard to tweak if people agree.

On the other hand, it's good at what it does and leaves a lot of ways to get around it. /shrug.

Samb
2009-04-16, 02:30 PM
Well, some one had to make a classic gun-fu man.


I think I may have dumped a bit too much into the PrC though. Shouldn't be that hard to tweak if people agree.

On the other hand, it's good at what it does and leaves a lot of ways to get around it. /shrug.

I think it's a very powerful PrC but I would have agree with you that you added too much into it. It seems to be a long range sniper and debuffer but it has a bunch of close quarter combat skills as well. I think I see two PrCs here, one with point blank range gunman (flurry is like a machine gun move right?) while another is on a perch. I guess this makes the PrC able to handle all ranges but I do feel it dilutes the focus of the class.

The moves are mechanically solid. You reminded me to defne the parameters of my bounce shot (max angle, how many bounces etc).
Monk gunslingers reminds me of the clerics from equilibrium (with christan bale) so I can see that flavor there.

TSED
2009-04-16, 03:12 PM
Yeah, I'm thinking of taking out all the skill tricks and ricochet and just giving 2 free skill tricks at level 4, and replacing Ricochet with Gun Fu.

Alternately maybe drop the BAB from full to 3/4.

Just not sure yet.

Samb
2009-04-16, 04:40 PM
Well I think richocet is fine, but I think you should either focus on the gun fu aspect by takng out the far shot and improved far shot and go full out matix/wanted style. Far shot should not increase the range of a pistol since it's barrel and amount of gunpowder that increases range. Add in something like bullet time and call it day.

If you want go an ungodly sniper, allow for a way for him to move from cover easier. And maybe adjust to only 5 levels, since I can't really think of any way to improve snipers other than more range and damage.

TSED
2009-04-16, 10:28 PM
Well I think richocet is fine, but I think you should either focus on the gun fu aspect by takng out the far shot and improved far shot and go full out matix/wanted style. Far shot should not increase the range of a pistol since it's barrel and amount of gunpowder that increases range. Add in something like bullet time and call it day.

Yeah, makes sense. Did so.

I was totally tempted to make a bullet time 10th level ability, though. "Cast time stop 1x per day, only you can attack during it."


If you want go an ungodly sniper, allow for a way for him to move from cover easier. And maybe adjust to only 5 levels, since I can't really think of any way to improve snipers other than more range and damage.

I more had those in for mid-range combat, but... meh. I DID say gun-fu, after all.

Samb
2009-04-16, 11:06 PM
Yeah, makes sense. Did so.

I was totally tempted to make a bullet time 10th level ability, though. "Cast time stop 1x per day, only you can attack during it."



I more had those in for mid-range combat, but... meh. I DID say gun-fu, after all.

I was thinking how I would play your PrC and I would totally not use any abilities that required me to within 30 feet of anyone and just snipe people all day long. With the abilities that bullet storm has he could trip anyone coming near him, disarm or sunder him next, block any missiles flying at him, and then flurry shot him. An opponent could not even hide or gain cover to avoid these things.

A regular Beretta 92F has a range increment of 40', with improved far shot it is now 120'!!!! At up to 240' he would only have to take -2 on BAB to hit, and -4 for up to 360'. Why would he ever even want to gun fu someone? (that reminds me, I have to include the range increment on my PrC).

Needless to say that is very powerful, but I just thought that it makes all your cooler stuff like gun-fu (the original intent of your PrC) kind of pointless. I like skill tricks myself but how many of them really useful for combat? Maybe you could increase the number of times they can used per encounter like uncanny trickster?

TSED
2009-04-16, 11:28 PM
I was thinking how I would play your PrC and I would totally not use any abilities that required me to within 30 feet of anyone and just snipe people all day long. With the abilities that bullet storm has he could trip anyone coming near him, disarm or sunder him next, block any missiles flying at him, and then flurry shot him. An opponent could not even hide or gain cover to avoid these things.

Well, block one missile flying at him until he's high level.

Keep in mind the one handed guns have pretty gosh darned short range increments. Automatic Pistols get 40', revolvers get 30', heck even laser pistols only get 40'. Doubling it to 80' or tripling to 120' means they could actually shoot some one from a distance. About the biggest range is 50'... Ok I guess that makes sense. 150' is a fair distance.

Really, Gun-Fu was more of a 'what to do if some one got close.' Oh well.



Needless to say that is very powerful, but I just thought that it makes all your cooler stuff like gun-fu (the original intent of your PrC) kind of pointless. I like skill tricks myself but how many of them really useful for combat? Maybe you could increase the number of times they can used per encounter like uncanny trickster?

Well, it's out now. Oh, I need to go put Improved Initiative as a prereq too. I think I'll drop the concentration requirement down to 5 for non-monks, as right now only monks and rangers stand a reasonable chance of getting in before 16th. (Sure, clerics / wizards COULD get in... but why?)

Krimm_Blackleaf
2009-04-18, 04:22 PM
Looks like I'll have to wait until I can enter something next contest, this one's proving to come together much less naturally than the ones I normally make. That on top of the fact that I'm working on about three other ones, DMing a handful of campaigns and maintaining PC's in a few other.

ErrantX
2009-04-18, 05:18 PM
Looks like I'll have to wait until I can enter something next contest, this one's proving to come together much less naturally than the ones I normally make. That on top of the fact that I'm working on about three other ones, DMing a handful of campaigns and maintaining PC's in a few other.

Awww, no Megaman?

Oh well, I hear you though on the busy front!

-X

Soup of Kings
2009-04-19, 01:47 PM
Baw...

I'm not smart enough to come up with something original. The best I can get is "Gun Mage"

Ooh, that's new and exciting. [/sarcasm]

Which sucks, because this looks fun, and I'm totally in a gunslinging mood. (I've been reading the Dark Tower over the last few weeks. I'm on Wolves of the Calla right now.)

:smallfrown:

ErrantX
2009-04-19, 11:10 PM
Baw...

I'm not smart enough to come up with something original. The best I can get is "Gun Mage"

Ooh, that's new and exciting. [/sarcasm]

Which sucks, because this looks fun, and I'm totally in a gunslinging mood. (I've been reading the Dark Tower over the last few weeks. I'm on Wolves of the Calla right now.)

:smallfrown:

Maybe make a prestige class based on the style of gunfighting that Roland and his crew practice?

-X

ErrantX
2009-04-20, 10:44 PM
2 weeks left of the contest folks! I hope to see at least a few more entries in here so we can have good spread to vote on.

Who else out there has something they're working on?

-X

Samb
2009-04-20, 11:14 PM
Guns and the fantasy world just don't mix I guess. So far we have psionics, matrix style gunfu but no sniper type, or arcane/divine type shooters. I hope this doesn't mean that this PrC contest is losing it's luster, because I had fun with it.

I would still like a PEACH on my psi-shot revolver though. No one even mentioned the obvious references. Makes me kind of sad really.

Bhu
2009-04-21, 04:43 AM
I'd try but my offline life has become suddenly complicated and depressing. Perhaps next month.

Xallace
2009-04-21, 08:36 AM
Two weeks? Wow, I thought it ended on the 21st. Alright, more time!

So my first attempt at combining guns and necromancy failed horribly. I think the concept and flavor worked out (I basically compared social views on necromancy to views on gun control and said, "So they probably overlap sometimes?"), but coming up with actually interesting abilities was pretty tough. I wanted to come up with something more original than "You shoot negative energy from your gun. Maybe it makes zombies sometimes." All I could think of was that when you hold a two-handed gun in one hand ghostly or skeletal hands manifest from the air or ground to support and steady your aim.

So I tried a druid-marksman, and that went about as well. I got to "The guns are organic" and stopped. No, wait, I got to "The guns are organic and as such can grow or shift weapon types, don't pollute, and don't use ammo." Then I realized that wasn't a class, that was a magic item (a really sweet magic item).

So I may be going back to the divinely-inspired lawman with the crazy longarm skills. Dunno, but I guess gotta decide soon.

Soup of Kings
2009-04-21, 03:15 PM
Maybe make a prestige class based on the style of gunfighting that Roland and his crew practice?

-X

I wanted to, but if I just make it revolvers and gunslinging, it's rather bland and unoriginal. Alternatively, I litter it with specific DT references, and it's an entirely new kind of unoriginal (Farther from cliched, more akin to plagiarism) :smalleek:

Both are bad, I ken (Reference!), but I suppose if it's not against the rules (Requesting clarification here) I'd go with the latter. The former doesn't seem "original" at all (It's just a class that uses handguns) but I think the latter could be fun. It would be openly influenced by King, though, and stated as such. I'm just too hare-brained to come up with something exciting on my own :smallfrown:

For the moment, I'm gonna lie down. All this thinking is hurting my brain. I need an astin. (More reference!)

Pramxnim
2009-04-25, 10:46 AM
I must say that the Rose Gunner intrigues me. I can't decide whether the class is overpowered or not, but it's definitely got something interesting and unique going for it.

At first glance, here's what the class offers:
- A HD upgrade (From what's usually a d4 to d8)
- A BAB upgrade (For most arcane casters)
- Upgrades in (usually) 2 saves
- Full spellcasting
- Unique Abilities

Yep, definitely an upgrade from base arcane casters. However, what's interesting is the mechanic which Arkdelta and his friend thought up to limit the class' power:

- Limited spellcasting per day (dependent on your Fort Save)
- Hp penalty for casting spells
- Cannot cast spells on oneself (including personal range spells)

The limit of 6 spells (of any level) that can be prepped at any one time opens up some insane amounts of cheesiness. Imagine slinging 6 9th level spells in 2 or 3 rounds of combat. This can be done at level 17th, soonest.
To examine the effectiveness of the hp penalty scheme, let us assume a Wizard 7/Rose Gunner 10 with 16 Constitution (very feasible with a 12 or 14 starting Con) has on average 111 hps, enough to do some serious gunslinging with an ally healing him (though 6 9th level spells would still cost him 45 hps, a considerable amount given his max).


The destruction of spell slots per day also make playing Wizards even more appealing than Sorcs (since they can know more spells), and doesn't help out the underdog (not to mention Sorcs get a slower spell progression).

The Fort Save mechanic is a good way to limit the number of spells that can be cast, but I believe a further penalty for failing the save should be implemented (like the fatigued status) to prevent people from just trying till they get that natural 20 (also you should state specifically that a natural 20 is not an automatic success on this save). Saves are not that hard to boost either. Most casters have an 18 or 20 in their Con at higher levels, and a cloak of Resistance +5 is only 25000gp. That's a +9/+10 to Fort save already.

Assuming a Wizard 7/Rose Gunner 10 with 20 Con and a +5 Cloak. They'll have a Fort save of +20, enough to guarantee them the ability to reliably cast 30 spells per day, and the potential to cast up to 54 spells per day (and all of them can be high level spells). This is... in short, very overpowered. Not to mention, with gish prestige classes, that Fort save can shoot up a few notches, up to the mid 20s range, allowing for even more spell-slinging goodies

In comparison, a Wizard 17 with 24 in Int (it's an avg score for any optimizer) can cast 44 spells per day, higher on average, but they're limited to only a few high level spells per day.



I think, in order to limit the amount of high level spells that can be prepared each day, you could add a rule that says the Rose Gunner may only prepare a number of spells of the highest level he can cast equal to his Con modifier per day. This limit also applies to his other spells as well, but for each spell level lower than the highest spell level he can cast, the limit increases by 1 (So a Wizard 7/Rose Gunner 10 with 18 Constitution can prepare up to a maximum of 4 9th level spells per day, 5 8th level spells, 6 7th level spells and so on).
Special: This limit does not apply to spells of 4th level or lower.


Finally, some comments on the unique abilities the class gets:

Pain Metamagic: How is metamagic handled before this ability is gained? Do you prepare a metamagicked spell beforehand? What about Sorcs who can do this before entering the class?

The Rose Gun ability states that you make Ranged Attacks with the gun but that the spell bullets are Ranged Touch Attacks. So which is it that you make? Making them all Ranged Attacks would be a serious nerf that would justify all the other abilities methinks. If you do so, I'd suggest handling Area effects by making one Attack Roll and seeing which ACs are hit with the attack.

If you decide instead to make all the Rose Gunner spells Ranged Touch Attacks, I would have to say his other abilities need to be nerfed. Either lower the HD to d6 (to prevent massive high level spell spamming) or implement a limit on high-level spellcasting. In addition, the good Reflex save probably should be removed (it can be represented by Rose Gunner's Accuracy) and a caster level or two should be lost to the class (most likely at entry and/or at 5th level). Area effects should be handled the way they always have been if using this variant (i.e. people make saves instead of you making a Ranged Touch Attack).

Really nice class, though. Just... I think it needs a bit of toning down.

HeavySleeper
2009-04-25, 02:04 PM
So I tried a druid-marksman, and that went about as well. I got to "The guns are organic" and stopped. No, wait, I got to "The guns are organic and as such can grow or shift weapon types, don't pollute, and don't use ammo." Then I realized that wasn't a class, that was a magic item (a really sweet magic item).

:smallcool:

Please, if you don't make the class, at least make the item. It was the "don't pollute" part that really got me. I'm imagining some sort of druidic gunman who opposes people on the grounds that their excessive use of ammunition is hurting and polluting the environment.

TSED
2009-04-25, 02:31 PM
Guns and the fantasy world just don't mix I guess. So far we have psionics, matrix style gunfu but no sniper type, or arcane/divine type shooters. I hope this doesn't mean that this PrC contest is losing it's luster, because I had fun with it.

The whole 'don't mix well' thing is the crux of the problem, I feel. I'm thinking next one will get a better turn out, assuming the theme is easier to use.


I would still like a PEACH on my psi-shot revolver though. No one even mentioned the obvious references. Makes me kind of sad really.

A little embarrassing, but I haven't got a clue how to read psionics, so I always skip over anything that has the word 'power points' show up. Bad habit, sorry.


THAT BEING SAID: I am going to go re-read my class and maybe perform minor tweaks to what I need. I was more channeling old-wild-west when I wrote it, let's channel some more Matrix in and re-do.


To the necromancy-gun-guy: How about using undead as ammunition? Nothing's going to freak a guy out more than getting shot, and then finding the bullet wiggling around looking for vitals.

So we've got:
1) Negative energy
2) Spectral hands aim-steadying
3) Makes zombies sometimes
4) Undead Ammunition
5) ?
5 level prestige class is pretty standard, but we can do more. Hmm.

1) Exhaustion-type effects are common in necromancy. Exhaustion, Fatigue, etc.
2) So is fear.
3) Paralyzation and Blindness / Deafness at 3rd level. Feel like making a note here.
4) Could add in 'shoot a gun and imbue the bullet with a spell you are casting.' Maybe upgrade it to 'at higher levels, skips SR if it hits.'
5) Some sort of undead-controlling mind-burrowing bullet.

Basically, look at what necromancy IS and then try to do some effects with that and guns in mind. Dangnabbit, you got me wanting to run with your idea a bit now.

Samb
2009-04-26, 11:54 AM
I'm a bit conflicted about rose gun. I'll start with the bad first.

Losing hp on each shot seems a bit harsh especially when you are just starting out and had d4s from your seed class. Having your gun do all the casting of all your spells brings up some issues as well such as:

no self buffs: again i find this harsh. A caster should be able to rely on his spells to provide with a boost.

spells requiring concentration checks to maintain: It is written as no concentration checks needed. What does this mean exactly? The spell stops the instant it is discharged? Or is it always on and never requires a check to maintain it? Either or it is rather broken.

The parameters of the spells cast from the gun need to be more specific, or it will be open to too much interpretation.

Reloading: full round action does it provoke an AoO? Anything make it faster? Does the fort save accumulate throughout the day or each encounter? When does it reset? How long are you dazed for if you fail (i can't assume one round unless you say so)? Why even have a fort save for reloading?

Shots: This does use up spell slots right? Or can you just put whatever spells you picked the night before/ cast spontaneously? The reason I am confused is because you said there is no limit to how many times you can reload, which makes it sound like no spell slots where used.


Gunner's celerity: I don't see this jiving very well with this class. Using a rose gun you don't have to worry about arcane spell failure and yet you have an ability that is not usable if wearing heavy armor. Seems out of place.







and now the good:
Full caster level: might be too good, if you catch my drift.
Pain metamagic: nice capstone, but does it take up a higher level slot as well?


I think, as written this class is still incomplete. Many things about the gun still needs to be defined. I don't mean to sound overly critical but it doesn't really feel all that different from an evoker fluff wise.

Samb
2009-04-26, 12:22 PM
The whole 'don't mix well' thing is the crux of the problem, I feel. I'm thinking next one will get a better turn out, assuming the theme is easier to use.



A little embarrassing, but I haven't got a clue how to read psionics, so I always skip over anything that has the word 'power points' show up. Bad habit, sorry.


THAT BEING SAID: I am going to go re-read my class and maybe perform minor tweaks to what I need. I was more channeling old-wild-west when I wrote it, let's channel some more Matrix in and re-do.


To the necromancy-gun-guy: How about using undead as ammunition? Nothing's going to freak a guy out more than getting shot, and then finding the bullet wiggling around looking for vitals.

So we've got:
1) Negative energy
2) Spectral hands aim-steadying
3) Makes zombies sometimes
4) Undead Ammunition
5) ?
5 level prestige class is pretty standard, but we can do more. Hmm.

1) Exhaustion-type effects are common in necromancy. Exhaustion, Fatigue, etc.
2) So is fear.
3) Paralyzation and Blindness / Deafness at 3rd level. Feel like making a note here.
4) Could add in 'shoot a gun and imbue the bullet with a spell you are casting.' Maybe upgrade it to 'at higher levels, skips SR if it hits.'
5) Some sort of undead-controlling mind-burrowing bullet.

Basically, look at what necromancy IS and then try to do some effects with that and guns in mind. Dangnabbit, you got me wanting to run with your idea a bit now.
Man, if i lose this competition because no one understands or likes psionics I'll be pissed.

I was hoping to see you put in slow time and/or time stop to cap off the matrix thing you had going but you didn't :(

I like your nerco gun ideas too, "bang! now you have cancer!!!" Very evil thing to do indeed.


Will give a PEACH for megaman later.



PS Adam Sharashka is a reference of revolver ocelot from the metal gear solid series the coolest fictional character to use two revolvers. D'nte Vespa is referencing Dante Sparda of Devil May Cry, and Killy is straight from Blame!
Shame on you for not picking up on that, you should have your geek status revoked.

TSED
2009-04-26, 12:57 PM
But I didn't read those! I would've gotten them. Honest.

Kind of surprised no one did a ToB gunsman.


I kind of put an 'always-crazy-reflex' thing going on. Maybe I should have put Uncanny Dodge in there too, but it's already pretty crowded for abilities (with at least one per level, and often two).

Man, stop and think about how many attacks my class can get.

Start as monk.
4 Iterative attacks thanks to full BAB at higher levels.
6 from Greater Flurry.
7 from Rapid Shot
14 from dual-wielding, but you'll probably need epic levels to get enough feats for that.

I suddenly fear precision damage dips in this class. Luckily they still suffer from the main monk problem (ie: flurry of misses). Get one of those fancy 'modern firearms' pistols at 2d6 a pop, and go scout 4 / monk 1 / Bullet Storm 10 / scout [4 to] 9. 5d6 a pop, and assuming you got enough TWF bonus feats... Let's see. 7 [mainhand] + [3 from GF, 1 from rapid shot, 1 from iterative bonus feat] = 12 attacks. Assuming they all hit, 60d6 a round. (2d6 from pistol, 3d6 from skirmish).

Ummm.

Definitely need a really good tumble mod to get the 10' as a free action thing though. (+40 I think it was. Totally doable.) And luckily they can only reload one a round, so that won't be every round. Still.

Scary. How's that for a BBEG?

Samb
2009-04-26, 02:23 PM
now now I never said your creation didn't have a lot of attacks, it's called bullet storm afterall. But something should mess with time just for flavors sake. Maybe it is the hardcore RPer in me but flavor matters to me.

Maybe something like temporal acceleration?

Pramxnim
2009-04-26, 02:45 PM
If you look at the Cybernetic Soldier entry I just submitted (and edited), you'd see a ToB gunman right there :D

I'm just wondering why the first table turned out so differently. It was fine before the edit. Anyone know why?

I've made a few damage calculations for the CS based on ideal conditions (Using TWF, a Sniper Rifle on one hand, and a Light Pistol on another, assuming we took Extra Capacity twice so that the Sniper Rifle has enough bullets to sustain a full attack. Elemental Charged shot is assumed). This is what I came up with:

I/ Full attack with a Charged Shot with TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Haste, Rapid Shot:

6 attacks with Sniper Rifle (1 is with Charged Shot)
3 attacks with Light Pistol

Deals:
24d6 + 3d10 + 20d8 = 87 + 80 = 167 dam on avg, range: 47-334



II/ Overcharged Combined Shot:

Deals:
4d6 + 1d10 + 40d8 = 17 + 160 = 178 dam on avg, range: 45-354

III/ Quad Shot:

Deals:
24d6 + 3d10 + 56d6 = 87 + 168 = 255 dam on avg, range: 83-510

IV/ Split Shot:

Deals:
4d6 + 10d8 = 52 dam on avg to 1 target, range: 14-104
Hits 3 targets for a total of 156 dam on avg, range: 42-312


The damage can be PRETTY high, although very unlikely. This is also at the higher end of optimization, and won't realistically be seen in normal play. Belts of Battle won't be as effective in trying to break this class, since it can't continuously produce that damage output (reloading time, charging time etc.).

What do you guys think? Is the damage output too high? Are the abilities too loaded?

TSED
2009-04-26, 04:27 PM
The attacks and the reflexes were two different thoughts.


BUT: That +reflex +ac-vs-missile-weapons was supposed to be a bullet-timey thing. If you don't like it just mentally replace it in your head with something with bigger effects for a short duration. :P


... Alternate class feature for a prestige class?


@Pramxmin: Heh.

Pramxnim
2009-04-26, 08:14 PM
@ Samb: Thanks for offering to PEACH my class. To show my appreciation, I'll do a rundown of yours as well :D. I must admit I didn't really look at it close enough since it was Psionics (After a stunt a player I know tried to pull with an Incarnate Shadow Creature Warforged Psychic Warrior 2/Fighter 2/Monk 2 with Expansion and Little Red Raiding Hood stuff, my group's become veeeeeery paranoid of Psionics. Not to mention the various broken builds that one of my friend keeps coming up that involves Psionics). But anyways:

Requirements: Are too high. Your class needs 6 feats by level 6 (Point Blank Shot is a prerequisite for Rapid Shot). This severely limits the entry, no? The skill requirement and BAB requirement disagree a bit (skill suggests that you need to be level 5, but BAB means you need to be level 6 for a straight Psychic Warrior before taking this class), but that's ok. I've seen such requirements elsewhere as well. No problem about that there. I'd just suggest you lower the feat requirements a bit.

The table looks a bit messy. I suggest you make a separate table for the manifester level increase, or add another column to show that.

Psi-Gun: The wording of this ability disagrees with itself. First you say Swift Bolt, then you mention Swift Creation. I believe this to be a typo, just like when you used "shot" instead of "shoot" when mentioning the use of normal bullets with a Psi-Gun.
The ability itself has a good foundation. I like the fact that the Psi-Gun is independent of bullets. I'd hate to keep track of bullets anyways.

Revolver Upgrades: In order to prevent some unneeded confusion, I'd suggest you include the initial statistics of a Psi-Gun in the ability description itself instead of putting it here. By that I mean you should list things like "The starting pistol has six chambers etc.". The mechanics of how a Psi-Gun functions should be well-established before you wish to improve upon them.
More unique Revolver Upgrades would be fantastic.
The Shot Speed Upgrade also renders Rapid Shot useless before it is taken. I don't think players want to take a useless feat before entering a PrC. This should allow you to remove Rapid Shot from the prerequisites without causing any problem at all.

Greater Bolt and Perfect Bolt are fine. Don't they count as Magic for overcoming DR as well?

Shot selection is quite wonky and the table doesn't help. What you've listed on the table are the powers required to learn the shots. It would take a few cross-readings to realize.
I would recommend putting the shot names instead of the power names. Also, you need to put somewhere in the table that you get the Dislocator and Coup de Grace qualities. Put them as separate abilities instead of in the same place as Shot selection.

The 10th level ability listed on the table has Power: Bend Reality, but that is not used at all in the final class. You should fix this methinks.
Are you giving the powers required for the Shots as bonus Powers Known? Or are they just requirements for the Shots? If it's the latter, then you can list it as a prerequisite to take the shot, and format Shot Selection so that it resembles Revolver Upgrades more.

You could also do what I did and adapt Krimm Blackleaf's most coherent format used in a lot of his homebrew where you get a list of special abilities that each have prerequisites that you may choose. With a healthy amount of those, each Psi-Shot Revolver created will be unique.

What I'm basically suggesting is to make Shot Selection like Revolver Upgrade, a choice of abilities that may be chosen at odd levels (and maybe even at 10th, cause you need a capstone, kinda). Add a few more Shots that are based off of powers, clean up the display so that each ability has a clear prerequisite in its description, and you're golden.


PS: I'd make the skill points 4+Int, since the class is not really that geared towards being a skill monkey. Just my 2 copper pieces there.

PS2: I just noticed that you never mentioned anything regarding infusing your shots with Powers. That ability seems to really conflict with Shot Selection, as they are basically the same thing (but Shot Selection has a few extra goodies attached).

EDIT: I just noticed that a lot of the powers included in Shot Selection are not Psy War powers, whereas Psy War is the most obvious choice for entry into this class (due to the amount of feats needed). You would be really limiting the class if that were so. giving them those powers as bonus powers known would be a bit too strong. If you do that, I suggest cutting down on the existing manifesting class increase in terms of PP/Powers Known (but have a method of increasing Manifesting Level to overcome Psionic Resistance for example).



@TSED: No problemo. I just wanted to clear it up. Will put up a PEACH for the Bullet Storm a bit later.

TSED
2009-04-26, 09:06 PM
Sorry, I was in a time crunch and was responding to "well the last class I just put up was ToB!"

What I was hoping to convey (you're totally right, sorry) was "If you open your mouth and aren't looking, you'll somehow find your foot in it."

Xallace
2009-04-26, 09:52 PM
:smallcool:

Please, if you don't make the class, at least make the item. It was the "don't pollute" part that really got me. I'm imagining some sort of druidic gunman who opposes people on the grounds that their excessive use of ammunition is hurting and polluting the environment.

Ask and you shall receive! I'm working the class right now; Your post somehow kick-started the idea part of my brain.


To the necromancy-gun-guy: How about using undead as ammunition? Nothing's going to freak a guy out more than getting shot, and then finding the bullet wiggling around looking for vitals.

So we've got:
1) Negative energy
2) Spectral hands aim-steadying
3) Makes zombies sometimes
4) Undead Ammunition
5) ?
5 level prestige class is pretty standard, but we can do more. Hmm.

1) Exhaustion-type effects are common in necromancy. Exhaustion, Fatigue, etc.
2) So is fear.
3) Paralyzation and Blindness / Deafness at 3rd level. Feel like making a note here.
4) Could add in 'shoot a gun and imbue the bullet with a spell you are casting.' Maybe upgrade it to 'at higher levels, skips SR if it hits.'
5) Some sort of undead-controlling mind-burrowing bullet.

Basically, look at what necromancy IS and then try to do some effects with that and guns in mind. Dangnabbit, you got me wanting to run with your idea a bit now.

All good ideas. And you can run with it all you want, I'm glad I could kick-start something myself.

HeavySleeper
2009-04-27, 12:28 AM
Ask and you shall receive! I'm working the class right now; Your post somehow kick-started the idea part of my brain.


Excellent. I look forward to it.

Pramxnim
2009-04-27, 01:07 AM
The Cybernetic Gunner is all done. Rip 'er apart, guys! :smalltongue:

Arkdelta
2009-04-27, 05:50 AM
I have updated the Rose Gunner class to reflect comments on balancing and to clarify certain aspects which were unclear. Rejoice as gumdrops and flowers rain from the sky to mark our advancement on the unending quest towards a better creation!


To Pramxnim:

I’m very glad that you find the class interesting, and I think that you raised some very good questions, I’m glad for the feedback. Balancing a class that, at high levels, can sling 3 to 4 9th level spells is not something I have any prior experience with, so any help is much appreciated.

_____The issue with the Fortitude saves is a good point. I feel that the case you present for a character with 20 Constitution and a cloak of +5 fortitude is somewhat extreme as the class suffers from MAD (Constitution, Dexterity, and either Intelligence or Charisma, and its going to need at least 19 in the last department while). But I think that there needs to be a penalty that hurts even in a case where the character has effectively unlimited health, like having 2 focused healers in the party. Based on what you have said, we decided to increase the penalty for failing a fortitude save to reload. (Each time you fail a reload check, you lose the ability to load your highest spell level. This is cumulative, so if you can cast level 9 spells, and you fail two reloads, you can only cast up to level 7 spells.) Hopefully this will offset some of that, but this adjustment needs to be tested in actual game play (which I have not yet done).

_____>As for metamagic, it works the same as usual, though I realized that I should be more explicit about that. Wizards can prepare spells with metamagic when they load or reload their spells, sorcerers can spontaneously cast metamagic, but doing so increases the casting time of the spell to a full round action (meaning you can’t sling multiple spells when using metamagic). Pain Metamagic allows both to spontaneously apply one metamagic feat to a spell without taking any sort of action at all. I'll update the class to make this more clear.

_____>One thing that’s important to understand about this class is that the (usually) improved BaB is less an advantage and more something that offsets a downside (the fact that you now have to hit people with spells that normally you didn’t have to make any sort of roll at all with). That’s not to say that it isn’t an advantage in some cases (most notably, for ray spells which you had to hit people with anyway), but its to offset the fact that now, you can only curse a person if you can hit them. The improved health is somewhat similar, though it falls more into the “advantage” column than the “makes a disadvantage less bad” column.

_____>I decided to test the class out briefly using regular ranged attacks versus ranged touch attacks. Short answer: it didn't work out, not at all.

====

To Samb:

Shots: This does use up spell slots right? Or can you just put whatever spells you picked the night before/ cast spontaneously? The reason I am confused is because you said there is no limit to how many times you can reload, which makes it sound like no spell slots where used.
_____Indeed there are no “spell slots”, just the six spells that you can reload as many times as you can make the check. That’s pretty much one of the main advantages of the class.


Gunner's celerity: I don't see this jiving very well with this class. Using a rose gun you don't have to worry about arcane spell failure and yet you have an ability that is not usable if wearing heavy armor. Seems out of place.
_____ Gunner’s Celerity being inhibited by heavy armor has nothing to do with spellcasting. Its like the vast number of other reflex enhancing abilities in existence that don’t work with heavy armor because heavy armor inhibits movement too much and its an ability based on enhanced movement (like the Swashbuckler’s dodge bonus, or any number of Rouge abilities). I will edit the text of that ability to make that clear. One thing I really don’t want, and would hate, is someone taking one level of fighter, then Rose Gunner, then attempting to be gunslinger in heavy armor, that completely ruins the style of the class, and I wish to discourage that as much as possible.


spells requiring concentration checks to maintain: It is written as no concentration checks needed. What does this mean exactly? The spell stops the instant it is discharged? Or is it always on and never requires a check to maintain it? Either or it is rather broken.
From the Rose Gunner:

A Rose Gunner does not cast spells in the traditional sense, that is handled by the gun, thus the Rose Gunner does not have to make concentration checks to keep hold of a spell when distracted.
_____The key phrase here is “when distracted.” Normally, if you are hit by an attack of opportunity when casting a spell or casting in harsh conditions (like a Maw of Chaos or Ectoplasmic Shambler) you have to make a concentration check or lose the spell because you are distracted. This means nothing for the spells with the duration of “concentration.” That is entirely different, and I have edited the wording to make this more clear.

====

I really, strongly considered removing a level in their spellcasting progression, but then I looked at classes like the Malconvoker (which, by 5th level, basically gives you the free benefit of a 4th level metamagic on your conjurations with no downsides, at the cost of only 1 level of spellcasting progression), and I though otherwise. If you can get that kind of benefit without taking the huge penalties like life loss when spellcasting, having to hit people with each spell, and being unable to cast buff spells on yourself, at the price of one spell level, then it seems to me like taking a spell level away from the Rose Gunner would be giving the class too much of a disservice compared to certain other spellcaster prestige classes. That said, I’m still feeling very indecisive about that decision, and could potentially swing either way.

EDIT: The Rose Gunner now loses a level of spellcasting. I still feel very conflicted about this.

Owrtho
2009-04-27, 10:08 PM
I rather like the idea of the rose gunner (though I haven't looked at many of the others in detail). That said, I feel like someone should make one based on Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha... I'm tempted to do so myself if I can get around to it. I like the theme for this contest though and wish I'd noticed it sooner.

Owrtho

Samb
2009-04-28, 11:09 AM
@Arkdelta: you know what? Full casting is fine, since it seems you can't make use of a lot spells that buff or require concentration to maintain. You make up for endurance and reliabilty in exchange for versitility.

@Pramxnim: great feedback, I always thought my shot selection and powers would be confusing. I'll simplify it by just giving them 7/10 ML and bonus EK on the powers needed.

On megaman: I really enjoyed it but I didn't like the whole two gun thing. I personally don't see megaman using twin blasters, but mechanically speaking it is pretty nice.
Could you change your manuvers and stances known to show total known instead of how many are gained?
I liked that you had more upgrades than the ten levels allowed. It will ensure that every cyberntic gunner will be unique. I think you should set which element the elemental stance fires though as the megaman mythos states that how it should be.

I had a hard time understanding the charge shot. How do I charge it? You state that I can use swift, move, or standard but then say full round actions will not charge it. This has me confused because each turn you get 5 "action points" first that makes swift and move much more worthwhile and second contradictory. Not all actions are worth the same hence they should do the same unless other investments are in place (like feats). Also a full round action included 3 types of actions that you state charge the shots, so by definition you could get a fully charged shot by waiting a full turn. I would suggest making all charges cost one standard action with upgrades along the way and full charge withfull round.
And that leads to my next big suggestion. Make all cyberntic gunners weapons of legacy!!! When two of these PrC clash against eachother the victor can acquire an upgrade from the loser. That will full out the whole megaman feel to this class.

Xallace
2009-04-29, 05:26 PM
The Redeemer is up.

I went with the druid/ranger idea, I thought I got some good mileage out of it.

ErrantX
2009-04-29, 07:16 PM
I'm really impressed with the entries that have come in lately, especially the the Redeemer and the Blackened Soul Gunman. The Rose Gunner at first was confusing to me but as I reread it I was very intrigued by its mechanics. I think it needs some tweaking in the mechanics for the Fort save, but to be honest I'm not really sure what to do with it yet. It's something I'll think on before I make any suggestions or real critique. I do love the concept of it though.

The Nameless Gunman is a very classic and simple archetype for the gunman, something I was hoping someone would come up with and the Bullet Storm smacks of gun fu. Sadly, Draco Dei, you're killing me here :P

Good stuff, and we've got less than a week to go!

-X

Lord_Gareth
2009-04-29, 08:46 PM
Once again, I'll be tossing my hat into the ring. Expect something from me in the next few hours/days.

Samb
2009-04-29, 09:43 PM
Major revamp on psi-shot revolver.

Changed the requirement feats; they were really harsh before, especiallyy when you consider that Bolt is not on psiwarrior list of powers.

changed powers granted to scribing tattoos; this was confusing to most people, as they gained in manifesting levels but not get the traditional powers. This way they gain the ability to scribe the powers but not be able to manifest them as often.

Better defined starting psi-gun stats. Added full automatic option to upgrades.

Energy shot was taken out so now only burst shot remains. Energy burst effects are put into a chart to make it less wonky.

Added capstone: singularity shot. inspired by Blame! and Trigun (anyone get those references?). AoE death effect with no chance of raise on failed save, or massive damage and stun for 4-16 rounds. All at the cost of one level and life span. Thinking about making this harsher, need a PEACH on this one.

Glad to see more entries, i'll get to some feedback (if you guys want it that is) once I get to reading them.

Xallace
2009-04-29, 09:52 PM
...inspired by Blame! and Trigun (anyone get those references?)...

Heck yes,


... i'll get to some feedback (if you guys want it that is) once I get to reading them.
and heck yes.

Lord_Gareth
2009-04-29, 11:39 PM
My entry, the Bang Baby, is up! Comments and critiques are appreciated ^_^

HeavySleeper
2009-04-30, 12:15 AM
Okay, here’s an actual critique of the Redeemer.

Prerequisites look good. About what I’d expect.

I’m a bit surprised Handle Animal isn’t on the skill list. Otherwise, looks good. 4+ Int seems right for the class.

Base Attack Bonus, saves, and spellcasting are about where they should be, I think.

Now, on to the class features.

I like how the Gunseed generation works, except for one issue I’ll mention below. It’s also good there is a bonus to attack and damage granted; I’m not sure if there needs to be some sort of cost. By 9th level, you could be using what are essentially two +4 weapons, which would be fairly expensive otherwise.

I like the code of conduct.

Ammoseeds: I’m unclear how Parasite Roots would work on a small, dense piece of metal, like a sword. If the bullet can penetrate the sword, it should really already be sundered. Also, I think there might need to be some way to halt the effect, even if the save fails. As is, literally any weapon or item can be destroyed if enough time is allowed. It’s vicious. Otherwise, they all seem good. I particularly like the Flytrap Sentry.

Sculpt Gunseed: makes sense for the class to have this ability. Looks good.

Ironbark Shield: defensive abilities are good. I like this.

Primal Retrogression: I see no reason this couldn’t also be used as a ranged attack, albeit with a smaller radius.

Quick Regrowth: this creates the only issue that might exist with the gunseed itself. If, when you grow a new gunseed, it is created with a full magazine, it’s actually more efficient to reverse the gunseed into seed form as a free action at the end of each round, and then regrow it at the beginning of each new round as a swift action and never have to reload. I’m sure this can be fixed easily.

Cycle’s Embrace: Hooray For Recycling!

Spirtbark Shield: a good improvement. Not overpowered.

Verdigris Repossession: See Primal Retrogression. Also, this is powerful, but only against very specific things. I think you could add some other effect, like damage as the result of super-rapid plant growth, that is effective against a broader range of enemies.

I really like the class overall. Good, unique fluff, and functional, properly powered mechanics. Well done.

Samb
2009-04-30, 02:37 PM
PEACH on nameless gunman. I like that it is only 5 levels. The flavor is very spegetti western which also dig. Intimadate as a means to gain advantage is nice but maybe add a feature to take 10 on intimadate checks.

Draw! Seems a bit too powerful for battlefield control. Nothing says you can't do this to multiple targets either. At least allow a saving throw to resist it. It also needs a way to hinder attepts to learn his real name. Somthing like slippery mind.

Samb
2009-04-30, 04:08 PM
Blackened soul gunman. This needs a lot more flavor. Where does this darkness come from? Is it a special connection to the negative energy plane? Is it a currportion of the swordsages' soul? Is it the darkness that lurks within all of us? This is never addressed, and there is no alignment requirement even though it is strongly hinted at being evil.

All the defensive features are okay, buy dealing 4 CON damage at the first level is way too strong. Also you never specify how long this damage lasts. Is it permenant?

Overall, I can't say I liked this PrC very much. It seems like a black flame zealot but with a gun flavorwise. Dealing 4 CON right off the bat with no limits on encounter or per day and so soon is rather overpowered.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-04-30, 04:21 PM
Hmmm...debating throwing my hat into the ring, but I want to know which people would be more interested in seeing, as I have several ideas:

1: A conversion of my Black Powder Mage to a PrC. It's a Blunderbuss wielding class focused on high-damage, powerful shots and on battlefield control.

2: A class bonding with a projectile-firing symbiont and gaining aberrant powers from the connection.

3: A class that turns a Warforged into a walking artillery emplacement.

Lord_Gareth
2009-04-30, 05:06 PM
Warforged! WARFORGED!

Can I get a PEACH on the Bang Baby?

ErrantX
2009-04-30, 05:15 PM
All of those are exceptional ideas Djinn... I personally would love to see the black powder mage or the symbiont and to be honest, I can't really decide which I'd prefer.

But alas, I must...

Do the symbiont. It's very different, and everyone loves an aberration. That's my vote. I really like your black powder mage too much to cut it in half :)

-X

horngeek
2009-04-30, 05:33 PM
...

Is it bad that when I saw the title of the latest PRC contest, I immediately thought of Yu-gi-oh?

Especially as I don't even watch it.

HeavySleeper
2009-04-30, 05:54 PM
Blackened soul gunman. This needs a lot more flavor. Where does this darkness come from? Is it a special connection to the negative energy plane? Is it a currportion of the swordsages' soul? Is it the darkness that lurks within all of us? This is never addressed, and there is no alignment requirement even though it is strongly hinted at being evil.

All the defensive features are okay, buy dealing 4 CON damage at the first level is way too strong. Also you never specify how long this damage lasts. Is it permenant?

Overall, I can't say I liked this PrC very much. It seems like a black flame zealot but with a gun flavorwise. Dealing 4 CON right off the bat with no limits on encounter or per day and so soon is rather overpowered.

Yeah, there's more fluff coming. I've just been busy.

And I don't find a maneuver that deals 4 Con damage overpowered. There's a fifth level Shadow Hand maneuver that does the same thing, which means normal swordsages have access to it at ninth level, which is, theoretically, also the first level of the prestige class. If you multiclass, you could get in 1 level earlier, I guess. Seems like a fair reward for intentionally aiming for the class.

Samb
2009-04-30, 06:17 PM
But a warblade or crusader can enter at level 6 right? That's a big difference. Also how long does this lose of CON last? How is it recovered? What happens when it hits zero? The reason why CON damage is so bad/good is because it deals up damage that cannot be healed.

I think vile damage might be better balanced if you are making this an evil class. Or scale the CON damage and have saving throw negates.
I think it is powerful PrC but it really some balencing and more flavor, especially for alignment.

ErrantX
2009-04-30, 06:53 PM
...

Is it bad that when I saw the title of the latest PRC contest, I immediately thought of Yu-gi-oh?

Especially as I don't even watch it.

You need watch some good old Westerns, like, stat. Hit some John Wayne movies or even some Clint Eastwood movies. Because if Yu-gi-oh was the first thing that came to mind, your mind... your poor mind :smalltongue:

-X

HeavySleeper
2009-04-30, 08:05 PM
But a warblade or crusader can enter at level 6 right? That's a big difference. Also how long does this lose of CON last? How is it recovered? What happens when it hits zero? The reason why CON damage is so bad/good is because it deals up damage that cannot be healed.

I think vile damage might be better balanced if you are making this an evil class. Or scale the CON damage and have saving throw negates.
I think it is powerful PrC but it really some balencing and more flavor, especially for alignment.

Unless the Warblade or Crusader somehow gets a good Will Save progression, no, they can't.

And the ability damage comes back at the normal rate for ability damage: 1 per day unless stated otherwise.

Xallace
2009-04-30, 08:11 PM
You need watch some good old Westerns, like, stat. Hit some John Wayne movies or even some Clint Eastwood movies. Because if Yu-gi-oh was the first thing that came to mind, your mind... your poor mind :smalltongue:

-X

I concur. Tombstone, now. Preferably the Mustache-Lover's Edition.

DracoDei
2009-04-30, 08:25 PM
Just posted most of the class abilities for my class... I am REALLY bummed out about missing the previous deadlines here and in the creature creation contest due to disorganization and procrastination, so help me "get back on the horse" with some feedback here! Please?

Samb
2009-04-30, 11:55 PM
HeavySleeper: oh wow that's a high will save. Guess it has to be swordsage or dipping into high will save classes. Could you please specify that that shot is once a day? It read like it was a readied maneuver. Also add how long the lose of CON and how it can be recovered. Level 9 is reasonable for CON damage. Still needs more fluff!!!

Draco: please finish cleaning up your post and I'll take a look.

Xallace: the redeemer is very nice. I don't know much about druids so I'm not sure i'm the best to give you feedback but I'll do my best.

Flavor wise it seems to be a cross between trigun and the 1st hokage in Naruto. Gunseed is a great concept, a gun that is never away from you, can't be disarmed, can't be sundered. The shots are great for crowd control too. I think Fort save should be higher and less reflex seems to fit the flavor better. I think shotgun should do cone damage myself but I guess it would be hard to calculate damage.

Cycle embrace is really quite a mean thing to do. I would hate if an NPC did that to me. The capstone reminds me a lot of Naruto where theh 1st Hokage could summon wild plant growth all over the place. I liked this class a lot, as I favor crowd control too (see my own entry) other than some nitpicking I would say you put a lot of thought into this class.

I'll be doing bang babies next, and maybe look into cybernetic gunner again since there has to a combo in there that will blow my mind. I would really some feedback on my psi-shot revolver though as I'm not sure the recent revamp was less confusing (or overly powerful).

Samb
2009-04-30, 11:57 PM
I concur. Tombstone, now. Preferably the Mustache-Lover's Edition.

3:10 to Yuma and Appaloosa were excellent as well if you are looking for something more modern.

ErrantX
2009-05-01, 12:01 AM
3:10 to Yuma and Appaloosa were excellent as well if you are looking for something more modern.

Heck, even Young Guns 1 & 2. Gotta love Emilio Estavez's famous line of "I'll make you famous."

-X

Bobmufin52
2009-05-01, 12:50 AM
PEACH on nameless gunman. I like that it is only 5 levels. The flavor is very spegetti western which also dig. Intimadate as a means to gain advantage is nice but maybe add a feature to take 10 on intimadate checks.

Draw! Seems a bit too powerful for battlefield control. Nothing says you can't do this to multiple targets either. At least allow a saving throw to resist it. It also needs a way to hinder attepts to learn his real name. Somthing like slippery mind.

Hmm, IDK about the take 10 on intimidate... I'll have to think about that.
As for the Draw! ability, I meant to make it just one person, and I thought I already added a will save to resist, I made it like the knight's challenge from the PH2.
Thanks for pointing out the idea of protecting his name, I totally forgot that there's magic that can let you read a person's mind. XD How bout a bonus of class level + wis modifier to resist any spell that can reveal your name, and you can make a will save vs. the spellcaster's spell level to figure out who cast the spell? Maybe make it a 2nd or 3rd level ability.
Anyway thanks for the PEACH, I'll add those abilities sometime next week.

ErrantX
2009-05-01, 01:07 AM
Hehe, oh the Nameless Gunman.

Scene: Gunman vs Wizard outside of the Saloon, they start trading barbs and the Wizard uses divination magic to discover the gunman's name. Gunman then fails his Will save.
Wizard: *mumbojumboohwhatajerkiammumbojumbo*
Gunman: What are you doing? *twitch*
Wizard: ...hahahahaha!
Gunman: What? What?!
Wizard: You're name... *wipes away tears* is Sue?!?
Gunman: *shoots the wizard in the face*

-X

Samb
2009-05-01, 01:50 AM
Hehe, oh the Nameless Gunman.

Scene: Gunman vs Wizard outside of the Saloon, they start trading barbs and the Wizard uses divination magic to discover the gunman's name. Gunman then fails his Will save.
Wizard: *mumbojumboohwhatajerkiammumbojumbo*
Gunman: What are you doing? *twitch*
Wizard: ...hahahahaha!
Gunman: What? What?!
Wizard: You're name... *wipes away tears* is Sue?!?
Gunman: *shoots the wizard in the face*

-X
Wizard baneful polymorphs gunman into a chicken after gunman's shot misses.

Arkdelta
2009-05-01, 09:21 AM
To Xallace:

I gotta say that I really like your Redeemer class. I'm running a campaign with my friend right now where he is playing a Rose Gunner, who has had the Leadership feat, but hadn't picked out a cohort. When you posted your class, I suggested it to him, and he immediately decided that he had found exactly the type of tag-team he was looking for. The classes have ended up complimenting each other really well so far, and I've had a lot of trouble deciding which of the two is more useful to the party. So far, I have nothing to add that HeavySleeper hasn't already mentioned, and everything seems balanced.

For reference, the party as it now stands takes place in a world that I have created (partly for the purpose of providing a setting to test our the gunslingers, but its evolved beyond that), and has three members, a Sorcerer/Barbarian/Rose Gunner, a Druid/Redeemer, and a Wizard/Artificer/Arcane Smith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6017763) (one of ErrantX's prestige classes that I wanted to try out) who uses a Disintegration Gun (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5867363#post5867363)).

Among other things, I have found that Barbarian makes an excellent class to take a few levels in for the Rose Gunner, especially if you get the Practiced Spellcaster feat, as the health really helps and the character has already once had his life saved by Rage (being in a situation with one spell left in his gun, 3 hp, an enemy right in his face at -8 hp with the Diehard feat, the Redeemer temporarily incapacitated, and the Arcane Smith at -2 and counting), not to mention the higher BaB. I have also discovered that, at 90 health, the Rose Gunner is far more limited by hp than anything else, as being hit by both enemies and using up spells really puts a drain on that health.

While I'm on that subject, the Arcane Smith class is weaker in combat than both a pure Artificer and a pure Wizard, but the ability to cast utility spells and, more importantly, the ability to use 1 minute casting time Infusions as a Full-Round action for the price of a spell make the class worth the loss of combat power. I'd say that so far the class seems balanced, and is pretty fun.
-----

To Djinn in Tonic:

I'd totally love to see a projectile-firing Symbiont that gains Aberrant powers from the connection, especially because of the setting that I am creating (the same one I mentioned above).

By the way, if anyone wants me to post the basics of the setting I'm whipping up somewhere, I could. To mention just a few things, it has gunslingers, samurai, both ToB Martial arts and regular fighting characters (with some experimental mechanics to help balance things), new Dragon Marks, and terrain modifiers that effect arcane spell casting. It takes some elements from Eberron, Dark Sun, and Oriental Adventures, and it draws some inspiration from gun slinging westerns (including the West meets East variety, as the presence of samurai suggests) and jungle adventures among other things.

Lord_Gareth
2009-05-01, 11:57 AM
I'll be doing bang babies next, and maybe look into cybernetic gunner again since there has to a combo in there that will blow my mind. I would really some feedback on my psi-shot revolver though as I'm not sure the recent revamp was less confusing (or overly powerful).

Sorry; I only barely understand psionics, though I do like the system >.<

DracoDei
2009-05-01, 01:15 PM
Draco: please finish cleaning up your post and I'll take a look.
How exactly do you mean? Spelling and grammer type stuff? Filling in all the pesky "little" details (mostly the fluff)? What?

KaganMonk
2009-05-01, 02:19 PM
I did have a very nice evaluation for you, but the forum or computer ate it. Here's the long and short of it though.

Samb probably means how mechanics oriented everything is, as well as some of the things I've included below.

You seem to have mechanics written down, but the fluff in your head. (Ex. why do you need ride, and it can use Dimension Door?)

Your class abilities are very technical and not easy to digest on their own. (Ex. Why reference Far Shot in your Artillary Gnome when it would be easier to use if you just put down the mechanics in the class feature instead?)

Your class seems to be focused on two separate concepts instead of forging two concepts into a conclusive and logical whole.
- A long-winded Gnome riding a (blink-dog?)
- And a multi-crossbow user
The only real link between the two is a lengthy description of a crossbow, whereas a Gnome using a gun may fit better (gunpowder, alchemy, explosions, you get the idea).

At the moment, you seem to be getting the cart before the horse with Dimension Door. (You get tolerance and then you learn how to use it consistently?)

All in all, you might want to go through, piece by piece, and ask yourself "Why did I put this where I did, and is there anything I'm not telling the reader?"

Pramxnim
2009-05-01, 08:57 PM
@ Samb: I was aiming to make a Megaman X class at first, but I decided to expand the idea a bit into ranged fighters in the X universe. This would then have to include different types of guns, and I just picked the less controversial ones for use in D&D (no machine guns or bazookas for example). Dual-wielding pistols is a trademark of the character Axl from X7 and X8, and the sample character reflects that fact. With different types of guns being made available, I was aiming to give players options with how to make their character.

The maneuvers and stances progression table I took from Krimm Blackleaf's oft used tables (I think it's the same type of table used in ToB) which I believe is the standard. Deviating from it would make the table harder to understand, methinks)

The Elemental Gunman Stance is meant to give more flexibility to the player. In the Expanded Megaman Universe (in particular, Megaman Zero and Megaman ZX universes) the main protagonist gains the ability to infuse his weapons with elemental damage, thus allowing a revisit into the old Rock-Paper-Scissors theme for boss fights without using the old system. This is what I tried to recreate here.

As for Charged Shot, the reason I explicitly stated only Swift, Standard or Move actions may be sacrificed is to prevent any sort of potential abuse (I haven't thought of specifics yet, but it's better to narrow it down). You get 3 "Action Points" in a round (1 swift, 1 move, 1 standard). Sure it makes MOVE actions more valuable, but swift actions see enough use already. The reason I decided to equate the 3 types of actions is because it's one of the easier ways to keep the mechanics of the ability simple (you sacrifice 1 action, you get 1 charge).
A full round action, contrary to popular belief, is separate from the three aforementioned actions. You can use a swift action and still use a full round action, thus contradicting that particular view. By using the above mechanic, I can safely implement the mechanics behind flux capacitor without having to iron out any clinks in the system. If I had gone with the ability to fire a fully charged shot within a round, I wouldn't be able to implement Flux Capacitor easily, and there would still be action inequivalency (3 standard actions is much more valuable than a full round action)

I don't understand Weapons of Legacy that well so I don't think I'll be implementing that. Also, the range of upgrades are too narrow right now to allow for the "poaching" of other people's upgrades. It could allow for overpowered characters (and that's certainly not my intention). Like I said in the end notes, the Variable Weapons System from Megaman is far too complicated for me to try to tackle in this small a time frame. I might make a generic "Reploid" base class later on to reflect it, but I make no promises.

@ Everyone else: No comments, peeps? It's a class meant for Warforged. WARFORGED :P

Xallace
2009-05-01, 09:16 PM
Sorry I haven't done anyone the courtesy of review, folks. I've looked over them, I like a lot of what's been set forth... I guess I just haven't had the will to get all nitty-gritty with any of them.

Also, anyone who thinks all these classes together would make for the ultimate western law-bringing force, say "Aye."
We need to get a Producer on this idea stat.

Lord_Gareth
2009-05-01, 09:21 PM
I dunno...I think the Bang Baby wouldn't be able to stop A. shooting off the Nameless Gunman's hat and B. laughing her ass off whenever the Rose Gunner ate HP to shoot. The others would have to kill her just to shut her up :smalltongue:

DracoDei
2009-05-01, 10:34 PM
I did have a very nice evaluation for you, but the forum or computer ate it. Here's the long and short of it though.
Thank you for your help.

As a future hint: I often save things to the clipboard, or even a text file (for more major posts) before posting the message, especially on these boards
.


Samb probably means how mechanics oriented everything is, as well as some of the things I've included below.
I have fixed that now to a large extend, adding in the history of the guild. Also put in (but haven't properly formatted) the "Protect Rider" feat, and the associated "Being Ridden" skill description (contained within the feat, since they are basically useless without eachother).
EDIT: The mechanics for the Blink Dog's HD and their non-replacable natuire (unlike a paladin's mount or a druid's Animal companion for instance).

You seem to have mechanics written down, but the fluff in your head. (Ex. why do you need ride, and it can use Dimension Door?)
Exactly right. The fluff I already know pretty exactly, so I don't need much feedback on it. The mechanics I am not sure about, so I put that up first so I could get feedback on it.

Your class abilities are very technical and not easy to digest on their own. (Ex. Why reference Far Shot in your Artillary Gnome when it would be easier to use if you just put down the mechanics in the class feature instead?)
Because it doesn't stack with the feat, but does stack with a Distance weapon and I consider it simpler to read if the word count is reduced by writing it as a reference rather than copying and pasting the wheel as it were.

Your class seems to be focused on two separate concepts instead of forging two concepts into a conclusive and logical whole.
- A long-winded Gnome riding a (blink-dog?)
- And a multi-crossbow user
The only real link between the two is a lengthy description of a crossbow, whereas a Gnome using a gun may fit better (gunpowder, alchemy, explosions, you get the idea).
The dog is so you can get to the right range to use Point-Blank Shot and still stay mostly out of melee. Plus Rule of Cool for teleporting dual-wielding insane tinker-gnomes* firing at close to gatling gun rates. Semi-auto fire-arms don't fit the setting as well as auto-cocker enchantments, and extra-dimensional bolt-clips.

*Yes, I know that the words "Tinker-Gnome" technically makes the word "insane" redundant, but I felt it was worth it for emphasis.

At the moment, you seem to be getting the cart before the horse with Dimension Door. (You get tolerance and then you learn how to use it consistently?)
The key thing that is missing is the description of that magic saddle you only have to chip in a paltry 7,500 GP towards. It lets the rider Blink and Dimension Door with the Dog. Because you only need the Dimension Door ability if you get separated from the dog, but being able to shoot right after a D-Door is very useful, you get the tolerance ability first.

All in all, you might want to go through, piece by piece, and ask yourself "Why did I put this where I did, and is there anything I'm not telling the reader?"
Yes, there was a lot I hadn't said yet(especially about things OTHER than the class features), but now I have said more, and I will say still more before the deadline unless I have a total failure of morale or organization.




One person suggested I drop the HD down to d4... whcih seems a bit odd for a fighter based class, but between Blink, the Protect Rider feat, good Fort and Reflex saves, and the ability to Dimension Door out of trouble, I am not SURE that it matters.

Edit: Someone else suggested I reduce the number of feats, because theoretically feats can be gotten with fighter levels and aren't very unique... I am unsure if I agree with that analysis.

Samb
2009-05-01, 11:34 PM
I hope everyone has the same concept of firearms here. I have been using the MSRD, which has all the info on range, damage, threat range etc.

Bang babies:

Like the name, kinda cute but could give the wrong message.
Pretty steep requirements. Guess it has to be a fighter entry. The high reflex save seems off. I picture a walking arsenal lumbering around where you can't see her skin. i guess you could be making a character like Lady in Devil May Cry (mini-shirt made of bullet clips for the win). Still I think Fort should be a good save too.

I would like to see escape artist on the skill list as well. She needs to get all that armor off to bathe right?

Quickest draw is a nice opening class that encourages the PC to carry a lot of guns. Never unarmed is something that is underrated IMO. Improvised armor is so out there that its awesome. Using your explosives and firearms as armor? Its both brilliant and crazy. Twitch shooter...... I heart this feature. Anything moving in range takes a hit, great damage dealing and control (esp if you have sneak attack and cheap shot). Ranged disarm and sunder...... sorry but I've seen this way too much in this PrC contest already and it doesn't fit your flavor. Instead of sunder, shot depleted uranium that treats next attacks as touch attacks. The capstone is perfect for this PrC.

The main thing I really dislike about this PrC is all the ammo and weapons you need to keep track of. Not all my guns are going to be non-magical. Some will have this quality or that bonus. What about all my bullets and which gun is empty? I might want silver bullets for the rare chance I see a werewolf, and admantine for taking out a wall. Am I supposed to keep track of all these little pieces of metal? If it wasn't for this problem I would say this is an awesome bomber.


PS use Lady from Devil May Cry as your poster child!!!!!

http://devilmaycry3.typhoongames.com/images/wallpapers/devil3_lady_2.jpg

Samb
2009-05-01, 11:47 PM
@ Samb: I was aiming to make a Megaman X class at first, but I decided to expand the idea a bit into ranged fighters in the X universe. This would then have to include different types of guns, and I just picked the less controversial ones for use in D&D (no machine guns or bazookas for example). Dual-wielding pistols is a trademark of the character Axl from X7 and X8, and the sample character reflects that fact. With different types of guns being made available, I was aiming to give players options with how to make their character. no problems, I have only played the originals.


The Elemental Gunman Stance is meant to give more flexibility to the player. In the Expanded Megaman Universe (in particular, Megaman Zero and Megaman ZX universes) the main protagonist gains the ability to infuse his weapons with elemental damage, thus allowing a revisit into the old Rock-Paper-Scissors theme for boss fights without using the old system. This is what I tried to recreate here.
Well I just wanted to limit the choices so that you could poach something from other fallen cyber gunners


As for Charged Shot, the reason I explicitly stated only Swift, Standard or Move actions may be sacrificed is to prevent any sort of potential abuse (I haven't thought of specifics yet, but it's better to narrow it down). You get 3 "Action Points" in a round (1 swift, 1 move, 1 standard). Sure it makes MOVE actions more valuable, but swift actions see enough use already. The reason I decided to equate the 3 types of actions is because it's one of the easier ways to keep the mechanics of the ability simple (you sacrifice 1 action, you get 1 charge).
A full round action, contrary to popular belief, is separate from the three aforementioned actions. You can use a swift action and still use a full round action, thus contradicting that particular view. By using the above mechanic, I can safely implement the mechanics behind flux capacitor without having to iron out any clinks in the system. If I had gone with the ability to fire a fully charged shot within a round, I wouldn't be able to implement Flux Capacitor easily, and there would still be action inequivalency (3 standard actions is much more valuable than a full round action)
That's just the thing; swift, move and standard actions are not equivalent. Swift is 0, move is 2 and standard is 3. This makes using swift actions the norm as it costs the least to get the same results. Why not set flux capacitor as "gain an extra charge" to simplify things and make all charges as standard--> move--> swift progression?


I don't understand Weapons of Legacy that well so I don't think I'll be implementing that. Also, the range of upgrades are too narrow right now to allow for the "poaching" of other people's upgrades. It could allow for overpowered characters (and that's certainly not my intention). Like I said in the end notes, the Variable Weapons System from Megaman is far too complicated for me to try to tackle in this small a time frame. I might make a generic "Reploid" base class later on to reflect it, but I make no promises.

@ Everyone else: No comments, peeps? It's a class meant for Warforged. WARFORGED :P
Weapons of Legacy gain powers as the weilder levels and require rituals to unlock new powers. Your warforged qualifies for both. When two weapons of legacy clash the winner can take a power from the defeated foe. It isn't broken if you never encounter and beat any other cyber gunners. And its just awesome for flavor.

Lord_Gareth
2009-05-01, 11:59 PM
I hope everyone has the same concept of firearms here. I have been using the MSRD, which has all the info on range, damage, threat range etc.

Bang babies:

Like the name, kinda cute but could give the wrong message.
Pretty steep requirements. Guess it has to be a fighter entry. The high reflex save seems off. I picture a walking arsenal lumbering around where you can't see her skin. i guess you could be making a character like Lady in Devil May Cry (mini-shirt made of bullet clips for the win). Still I think Fort should be a good save too.

Look at all those class features. These are people who live on being as fast as humanly possible. That's why Reflex was so high. Also, who the hell is Lady?


I would like to see escape artist on the skill list as well. She needs to get all that armor off to bathe right?

This is an interesting idea.


Quickest draw is a nice opening class that encourages the PC to carry a lot of guns. Never unarmed is something that is underrated IMO. Improvised armor is so out there that its awesome. Using your explosives and firearms as armor? Its both brilliant and crazy. Twitch shooter...... I heart this feature. Anything moving in range takes a hit, great damage dealing and control (esp if you have sneak attack and cheap shot).

Thank'ee ^_^ Again, the main theme has been snap-reactions and cordite-reeking blazes of glory :D


Ranged disarm and sunder...... sorry but I've seen this way too much in this PrC contest already and it doesn't fit your flavor. Instead of sunder, shot depleted uranium that treats next attacks as touch attacks. The capstone is perfect for this PrC.

How about, instead of Sunder:

Hammer Shots (Ex): There's nothing quite like a large steel ball to throw off things like sensory coordination or personal balance. Whenever the Bang Baby strikes a flat-footed opponent with a flintlock weapon or grenado, they may choose to either stun that opponent for one round (DC 15 + damage dealt by the attack Fortitude save negates) or knock them prone (DC 15 + damage dealt by the attack Reflex save negates). This ability stacks with Cheap Shot and any other sources of precision damage the Bang Baby might possess.


The main thing I really dislike about this PrC is all the ammo and weapons you need to keep track of. Not all my guns are going to be non-magical. Some will have this quality or that bonus. What about all my bullets and which gun is empty? I might want silver bullets for the rare chance I see a werewolf, and admantine for taking out a wall. Am I supposed to keep track of all these little pieces of metal? If it wasn't for this problem I would say this is an awesome bomber.

Yeah, there is a lot of paperwork, but I consider it paperwork of love :P

Godskook
2009-05-02, 12:15 AM
I was thinking about submitting to this, but I was wondering, would a slingshot user qualify, if flavored as such:

http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Usopp

I'm not sure if I can make the deadline, but it'd be fun to try.

Samb
2009-05-02, 12:15 AM
Who is Lady?
Look at my post again, I added it just for you.

Lord_Gareth
2009-05-02, 12:23 AM
Sblock that please - you stretched the screen :p

Anyway, whaddya think of the Hammer Shots idea?

Samb
2009-05-02, 12:28 AM
Sblock that please - you stretched the screen :p

Anyway, whaddya think of the Hammer Shots idea?

I like the stun and trip effects (even though my PrC had it first LOL) but the DC is too high. Most adding damage to the DC makes it very hard to resist especially when you have a bunch of sneak attacks stacked on.

I'll change the image but please consider my suggestion of using Lady, since that mini skirt is so hot, and your gunwoman happens to be a hottie.

Lord_Gareth
2009-05-02, 12:41 AM
Her Dakka is a bit too MOAR for this class, though :P Sorry

Samb
2009-05-02, 01:18 AM
Her Dakka is a bit too MOAR for this class, though :P Sorry

Her what is too what?

DracoDei
2009-05-02, 03:08 AM
Her what is too what?

Dakka = Guns, especially automatic ones, I think.

MOAR = More

"More Dakka!" is one of the mottoes (or something) of Orks in Warhammer 40,000, they like Chainguns with underunderslung automatic rifles as a starting point to build from... If you can see the character under the ammo-belts, he doesn't count as heavily armed... that sort of philosophy...

Xallace
2009-05-02, 09:00 AM
... they like Chainguns with underunderslung automatic rifles as a starting point to build from....

WHAT.

Chaingun.
???
Rifle

Like that? I'm not sure what's at number 2, is it another chain gun? Is there another orc, strapped to the chain gun, holding a rifle? Or something simple, like

Chaingun
Rifle
Rifle

Or replace "Chaingun" with "Chainsaw" for and the second rifle with "Great Axe" for a truly orc weapon.

And then make it a Shotgun/Chainsaw/Torch for a truly anti-undead weapon. (Note to self: Shotgun that shoots flaming chainsaws; next Pelorian artifact?)

DracoDei
2009-05-02, 11:56 AM
It was a typo, but I think we can pretend that it wasn't for the sake of the quality of the ideas that it inspired you to produce.

Xallace
2009-05-02, 01:58 PM
It was a typo, but I think we can pretend that it wasn't for the sake of the quality of the ideas that it inspired you to produce.

Oh.... Heh, well, can't say I'm not a little embarrassed right now. But thank you for the ideas! Orc armies will never be the same again.

KaganMonk
2009-05-02, 03:28 PM
The Infernal Sniper is now in a readable form and ready to be critiqued as much as you like.

DracoDei
2009-05-04, 02:45 PM
First draft of the items the magic items the class is built around added in, safe poison use defined (might need to rename that for clarity since it only applies to bolts) and GM guidelines for mount replacement if one permanently loses a bunch of HD compared to the other, and some other details and edits in various places.

The items are kinda odd since a lot of them have variable abilities that can be picked at creation. I am especially interested what people think of the the prices.

ErrantX
2009-05-04, 05:50 PM
Tomorrow night at midnight is the deadline folks, post em if you got em :D

Great work to those who have contributed already. Great stuff!

-X

DracoDei
2009-05-05, 12:47 AM
I-X: So when you said I was "killing" you a bit earlier, was that because my class was so barely-there when I posted it? Or were you seeing the humorous side of it?

Basically I am feeling a bit insecure and want to double check that you are including me when you say "great work people" since when I reread the initial contest rules it doesn't seem like repeater crossbows TECHNICALLY fit the bill. But if that were a problem, someone would have said something by now... right?

Xallace
2009-05-05, 08:24 AM
...it doesn't seem like repeater crossbows TECHNICALLY fit the bill. But if that were a problem, someone would have said something by now... right?

Dude, my class wields a plant. If you don't qualify, I don't qualify.
Also, I don't think anyone can deny that gnomish blink-dog-riding repeater-crossbow-wielding trans-dimensional mobile artillery ranks among the greatest PrC concepts ever.

Samb
2009-05-05, 11:11 AM
Since I didn't get any protests on my PrC's capstone I'll assume it is well balenced and leave it as is.

Hope we have a good turn out and looking forward to the next one.

ErrantX
2009-05-05, 02:28 PM
I-X: So when you said I was "killing" you a bit earlier, was that because my class was so barely-there when I posted it? Or were you seeing the humorous side of it?

Basically I am feeling a bit insecure and want to double check that you are including me when you say "great work people" since when I reread the initial contest rules it doesn't seem like repeater crossbows TECHNICALLY fit the bill. But if that were a problem, someone would have said something by now... right?

In guideline #1 it says "crossbow-like launchers are okay too". While not what I was actually going for in saying Crossbows are A-okay, I'll let it slide because I did specifically say that crossbows were okay :P

As far as you killing me? Yeah, that was because you put up only a little bit of work and seemed to have left it like you did in the previous contest.

-X

P.S. Deadline at midnight!

DracoDei
2009-05-05, 04:31 PM
My fears are assuaged. Also, glad you like it!

Links to example character's added, as is the Improved Mounted-Archery feat at 10th level (mostly just for flavor since by that point the blink dog has probably forgotten how to walk because (s)he just D-Doors every-where).

Bobmufin52
2009-05-05, 05:07 PM
Ok, I entered a new ability to the Nameless Gunman to help protect his name from magic. I decided not to add an ability that lets him take a quicker 10 on intimidation, it would help, but… idk, I just don’t really like the idea. :-/ Also, the Draw! Ability says it only works on one person, and it says it useable only once per encounter, and it already allows a will save to resist the ability, so I don’t really see any need to fix it.

ErrantX
2009-05-06, 01:38 AM
Contest X: Draw, Partner! is officially closed!


Vote here! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6074269)

Voting is on till May 15th and then shortly after that I will start the next contest. Vote away!

-X

boomwolf
2009-05-14, 06:08 PM
I couldn't even choose who to vote for...not to mention the gunlock never been made...

Being in the army makes it hard for me to think of guns as anything unique or fantastic, they look so bland and crude now.

Hell, lets see what contest do you start tomorrow (and please DO post the new contest tomorrow because I need to go back to the base on Sunday, and that means two weeks of thinking I wont do because I'll have no internet.)

ErrantX
2009-05-18, 11:46 PM
Alright, later than I wanted to but hey, better late than never:

The new contest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6117384) is up, if people have questions, by all means ask em!

May the best entry win!

-X

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-05-19, 12:40 AM
Oh, this is one I can sink my teeth into. I have a great idea for this...:smallbiggrin:

realbombchu
2009-05-19, 09:31 AM
This is my first contest. You say it has to be 100% original content. Does that mean that we can't use abilities that other classes have, but in a new combination? For example, in the previous contest, the Order of the Bow Initiate ability Close Combat Shot seemed an obvious addition to a prestige class, but it's not original.

I think when you say original you mean don't copy other people's work and don't repost stuff you've already submitted for other contests, but I just wanted to make sure. Thanks!

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-05-19, 10:06 AM
I believe you are allowed to use abilities from other classes in the case of generic abilities (Close Combat Shot is a fairly generic ranged combat ability, for example). Specific abilities require re-flavoring: the mechanics can be used, but the name needs to fit the class.

Or so I'd imagine. After all, many ideas for class abilities have appeared somewhere in some form before...

Lord_Gareth
2009-05-19, 11:18 AM
Ooh, this one will be fun times. I'll have something up for either fallen paladins or fallen druids, though I may do one for fallen clerics. We'll see how it rolls ^_^

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-05-19, 11:20 AM
Ooh, this one will be fun times. I'll have something up for either fallen paladins or fallen druids, though I may do one for fallen clerics. We'll see how it rolls ^_^

I await the result with interest.

Mine may be unusual...I think I've figured out a way for a certain type of Diviner to fall from grace with very interesting results...

Pramxnim
2009-05-19, 11:26 AM
I think I'll make up a class for fallen knights. Dibs! Dark side, here we go!

Lord_Gareth
2009-05-19, 11:28 AM
Ideas thus far:

Knights of Nirvana are ex-paladins and ex-blackguards that have been consumed by the all-encompassing law of Mechanus. While their power grows ever-greater, spurred on by the clockwork march of eternity, their souls slowly wither and die within them.

The Children of the Mausoleum are considered heretics, evil-doers, and worse. Hunted for espousing the belief that undeath is a natural state, the Children study the dark forces that draw back life from beyond the grave while trying to carve out a niche in the world for both themselves and their rotting wards.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-05-19, 11:42 AM
The Children seem more interesting to me. I like the idea of a group "fallen from grace" due to the opinions of others, rather than necessarily their own evil deeds.

Lord_Gareth
2009-05-19, 11:46 AM
I kinda like the Children as well. I'm thinking they're a druid/ranger/nature cleric kinda class. I'm still pondering a few things, such as:

- Do I want to make it a casting class? Shapeshifting? Those two things are the CoDZilla's biggest strengths, and I'd hate to expand on them.

- How will their class features relate to undeath? Should they be summoners? Necromancers?

- How will their philosiphy interact with necromancy? Should "nongood" be an alignment requirement? Why are undead "evil" in the first place?

ErrantX
2009-05-19, 12:39 PM
This is my first contest. You say it has to be 100% original content. Does that mean that we can't use abilities that other classes have, but in a new combination? For example, in the previous contest, the Order of the Bow Initiate ability Close Combat Shot seemed an obvious addition to a prestige class, but it's not original.

I think when you say original you mean don't copy other people's work and don't repost stuff you've already submitted for other contests, but I just wanted to make sure. Thanks!

Certain intrinsic class mechanics can be used without fear (i.e. evasion, mettle, etc etc) but don't single white female blackguard here and I think you'll be okay :P You should do your best to come up with new abilities that fit your class, but if your class would sensibly have Evasion or Uncanny Dodge, then you don't have to call a rose by another name, it's still a rose.

-X

ErrantX
2009-05-19, 12:42 PM
I kinda like the Children as well. I'm thinking they're a druid/ranger/nature cleric kinda class. I'm still pondering a few things, such as:

- Do I want to make it a casting class? Shapeshifting? Those two things are the CoDZilla's biggest strengths, and I'd hate to expand on them.

- How will their class features relate to undeath? Should they be summoners? Necromancers?

- How will their philosiphy interact with necromancy? Should "nongood" be an alignment requirement? Why are undead "evil" in the first place?

I'd make them heavily druid based, and perhaps give them a spellcasting progression like Blighters (Complete Divine). They get all 9 spell levels but a quicker, smaller progression with limited spells. Give them lots of necromancy spells (hit the PHB, Complete Divine and Libris Mortis hard on that one) and go to town. Just make sure you don't lose the druid feel of them. I'm whole-heartedly supporting you making the Children.

I <3 dark druids.

-X

Khatoblepas
2009-05-19, 06:47 PM
Now this is an idea I can wholly get behind. I think I'll be joining in on this one, if I figure out how to properly balance the class.

But to say the least, it's an unconventional one: A Fallen Healer. :3

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-05-19, 06:51 PM
First draft of the Sybil of the Blinded Eye is now posted. A Diviner and Oracle who has foretold terrible things and, corrupted with visions of a horrible future, has blinded herself to escape them. When even this fails, the Sybil turns these visions upon those around her, desperate to escape the future she cannot help but see.

DracoDei
2009-05-19, 07:29 PM
The Sybil sounds very cool fluff wise... but I haven't actually read it yet...

The knights of Nirvana need to get made, but at the same time don't seem to be very interesting... would really need to flesh out the "inner death of self" angle to give it bite for the feel of the characters.

Children of the Mausoleum would be the most daring, and thus probably the best, if it required a GOOD alignment...Note that in such a case it would be an interesting option to have them consider mindless undead, ones that change alignment, and to a lesser extent ones with a "hunger" that can only be sated by harming sentient to be violations of undead... give them the ability to grant free will, breaking all Command undead, bloodline command (IE being under control of undead that created them) and magical compulsion on undead in lieu of standard Turn/Rebuke, and you might be on to something interesting... they come surrounded by slightly timid free-willed skeletons who serve out of gratitude for being released from slavery... they skeletons might or might not be willing to fight for them, but who needs a Bag of Holding when you have 10 tireless back(bone)s to do the heavy lifting for you? One way would be to basically have them grant/convert pre-exist class levels that had/returned to the undead they work with into levels of Emaciated Spawn*?

I have only heard of this PrC so I might have the name wrong... could be EMANCIPATED Spawn...

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-05-19, 07:32 PM
Emancipated Spawn is it. The other would mean "starved and skinny spawn," rather than "free spawn."

Although that would be rather entertaining...:smallbiggrin:

Redikalus
2009-05-19, 08:58 PM
I like the idea behind the Sibyl, Djinn, and I think the abilities fit well. I am, however, worried about the power level. Those abilities look pretty strong and the class retains full casting. I think it might be too powerful. Make sure it's balanced and it will be a great class!

I'm going to try to enter as well, I'm trying to decide between ideas. I'll either do:

a barbarian turned monk who has learned to tap into the power of thier emotions like they used to, except instead of letting them run wild, the will be more controlled.

or the Forsaken of Pelor, clerics or paladins who revered the sun god but became vampires. Now they seek to restore their lost connection to the sun.

Right now I'm leaning towards the forsaken. I'd love to hear everyone's opinions.

ErrantX
2009-05-19, 09:12 PM
That's a great first entry and a great start on your class Djinn. Few things I'd like to start out with:

Your gaze attack for Mirror of Misfortune is... terrifying. 1d4 drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDrained) to three mental stats? That's... devastating. At 8th level (cleric 7/Sybil of the Blinded Eye 1) you can permanently handicap spellcasters. I'd save that for a higher level ability if you want it to be drain or change it to damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged) (which is what I'm hoping you meant) which can be healed by restoration effects. Still potent enough to handicap a caster, but not a permanent drain ability at 8th level. I think all of your Mirror abilities should be changed to damage instead of drain, personally.

Gates of the Mind is good, love Visions Held Back, priceless. None Escape Time is difficult, as it basically is a unstoppable force against an immovable object. Not sure how to think on it. Haunting Torment and Forgotten Futures are just rough to be on the other side of. HT is fine as drain though.

Gates of the Soul is a great high end ability, and will be a godsend in epic levels (which, could prove that it's a bit stronger than it should be, I'm not good at epic level things).

All in all, I really like the idea and angles of it, I just think that that some of the abilities are just a little too potent, especially with full spellcasting and a d8HD. You may want to tone it down a bit, or stamp a big NPC label on it.

My 2 cents,
-X

ErrantX
2009-05-19, 09:13 PM
or the Forsaken of Pelor, clerics or paladins who revered the sun god but became vampires. Now they seek to restore their lost connection to the sun.

Right now I'm leaning towards the forsaken. I'd love to hear everyone's opinions.

Ooooo do that! That's totally in the spirit of what I was aiming at for this contest :D

I like the barbarian monk thing, but definitely like the Forsaken of Pelor more.

-X

DeskChairLamp
2009-05-19, 09:18 PM
I've got two ideas so far...

First are the Drifting Petal Knights (or some better name I come up with later on). They're knights or samurai who have seen corruption in mortal lords, and pursued paths of higher righteousness. While not fallen-from-grace per se, their vague ideals often cause conflict with others, especially their ex-lieges.

Second idea is the Anima Sage, monks who seek perfection through a fusion of ki and magic. They use a taboo ritual to turn their bodies into a source of magic, instead of developing it "purely" in the traditional monk way.

Bobmufin52
2009-05-19, 09:21 PM
I’m almost finished with the mechanics of a paladin who became LN and embraces his lawful side to fight chaotic creatures instead of evil ones. I’ll post it up here when I finish with the rules.

ErrantX
2009-05-19, 09:25 PM
I've got two ideas so far...

First are the Drifting Petal Knights (or some better name I come up with later on). They're knights or samurai who have seen corruption in mortal lords, and pursued paths of higher righteousness. While not fallen-from-grace per se, their vague ideals often cause conflict with others, especially their ex-lieges.

Second idea is the Anima Sage, monks who seek perfection through a fusion of ki and magic. They use a taboo ritual to turn their bodies into a source of magic, instead of developing it "purely" in the traditional monk way.

I like the idea of the Drifting Petal Knights, but I'm really quite curious as to what this taboo ritual would be that would be a violation of the monk's way? Infernal pact? Chaos infusion?

-X

DracoDei
2009-05-19, 11:35 PM
Your gaze attack for Mirror of Misfortune is... terrifying. 1d4 drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDrained) to three mental stats? That's... devastating. At 8th level (cleric 7/Sybil of the Blinded Eye 1) you can permanently handicap spellcasters. I'd save that for a higher level ability if you want it to be drain or change it to damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged) (which is what I'm hoping you meant) which can be healed by restoration effects. Still potent enough to handicap a caster, but not a permanent drain ability at 8th level. I think all of your Mirror abilities should be changed to damage instead of drain, personally.

You are incorrect. Restoration, Lesser does nothing for Drain, but Restoration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) has the following clause:

Restoration cures all temporary ability damage, and it restores all points permanently drained from a single ability score (your choice if more than one is drained).
Since Restoration is 4th level, that means that most parties should be able to cast it themselves, or at the least, hire it cast when they get back to a big enough city. The second should only be an issue if the Sybil is a major opponent.
Restoration, Greater (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restorationGreater.htm) cures all ability drain.

TSED
2009-05-20, 12:10 AM
I got this idea and I HAD to roll with it.

Hopefully it gives you a chuckle or four.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-05-20, 01:38 AM
Your gaze attack for Mirror of Misfortune is... terrifying. 1d4 drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDrained) to three mental stats? That's... devastating. At 8th level (cleric 7/Sybil of the Blinded Eye 1) you can permanently handicap spellcasters. I'd save that for a higher level ability if you want it to be drain or change it to damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged) (which is what I'm hoping you meant) which can be healed by restoration effects. Still potent enough to handicap a caster, but not a permanent drain ability at 8th level. I think all of your Mirror abilities should be changed to damage instead of drain, personally.

All drain changed to damage, except for Mirror of Fate, which is already such a "You're F-ed!" ability that I don't think it matters. Also, permanent damage fits the flavor of that ability.


None Escape Time is difficult, as it basically is a unstoppable force against an immovable object. Not sure how to think on it. Haunting Torment and Forgotten Futures are just rough to be on the other side of. HT is fine as drain though.

None Escape Time is really only there to avoid the problem Fear or Mind-affecting builds run into at higher levels: almost everything is immune. I don't like the unstoppable force/immovable object solution either, but it's something I need to consider to make the class function. Although it might be okay without it...


All in all, I really like the idea and angles of it, I just think that that some of the abilities are just a little too potent, especially with full spellcasting and a d8HD. You may want to tone it down a bit, or stamp a big NPC label on it.

Damage dropped to Drain, Hit Die dropped to d6, and it loses a caster level at 1st, 5th, and 9th. That should cover that angle of it. :smallbiggrin:

DracoDei
2009-05-20, 02:51 AM
While I like the idea of a fallen Bard, but the direction you have taken with it seems too corney for a serious game, and not funny enough for a silly one...

It seems perhaps overpowered... what are they loosing compared to a straight bard?

Also, without recording devices, "Lawsuit" seems at least slightly limited... what is it? If someone has listened to your songs a lot and starts singing them you can sue them and everyone who actively listens to them?

P.S.: Djinn-in-Tonic, did you see my previous post about why the reasoning against Drain was flawed?

TSED
2009-05-20, 03:21 AM
While I like the idea of a fallen Bard, but the direction you have taken with it seems too corney for a serious game, and not funny enough for a silly one...

... It's pretty corny, yeah. That's kind of the point, but not all of it. A bitter and cynical kind of humour, you know?


It seems perhaps overpowered... what are they loosing compared to a straight bard?

You know, I didn't even consider that. I am used to making base classes and not prestige classes, and the few times I have done prestige classes it was on things fairly lush with class features.

I'll go give it a comb over tomorrow, I was in a weird mood tonight. I'm thinking I'll reduce some caster levels and take off the bard song acquisitions, but I'll look at it more in-depth later. Might just go totally rework the spell list.


Also, without recording devices, "Lawsuit" seems at least slightly limited... what is it? If someone has listened to your songs a lot and starts singing them you can sue them and everyone who actively listens to them?

Magic! Cover bands! Unofficial merch! It really wasn't set up for traditional Heroic Fantasy. More a way for me to say 'Screw you, Metallica', except I kind of ground that joke into the dirt. I'll work it up tomorrow.

Bhu
2009-05-20, 04:49 AM
Now this contests idea is something I can sink my teeth into. Lets hope I have the time to get something done...

Kellus
2009-05-20, 05:09 AM
I've put in my entry, the partitioned mind. This is a wilder who has forsaken the emotional and uncontrollable nature of her powers and sealed all of her emotions into a corner of her mind far from her conscious thoughts. :smallsmile:

DracoDei
2009-05-20, 06:25 AM
For clarity I recommend that each place you have "If your mind ever lapses, you lose access to this ability." you add the clause "until you successfully repartition your mind." since just taking damage would be a really weak-sauce way to permanently loose a bunch of class features, and I REALLY don't think you meant it that way... I could check the crunch for "divided mind" but I am pretty tired right now, so I won't.

Lord_Gareth
2009-05-20, 09:40 AM
I'd make them heavily druid based, and perhaps give them a spellcasting progression like Blighters (Complete Divine). They get all 9 spell levels but a quicker, smaller progression with limited spells. Give them lots of necromancy spells (hit the PHB, Complete Divine and Libris Mortis hard on that one) and go to town. Just make sure you don't lose the druid feel of them. I'm whole-heartedly supporting you making the Children.

I'm axing the spells, but see class features later.


I <3 dark druids.

I don't; I think that Blighters were overdone and completely cliche. I've been growing more and more irritated with the black-and-white nature of D&D morality lately, and I think it's time to play around with those delicious gray areas.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-05-20, 09:44 AM
...and I think it's time to play around with those delicious gray areas.

GOOD. It's always more fun to dabble in ambiguity. I await the result with interest. :smallbiggrin:

Lord_Gareth
2009-05-20, 09:55 AM
I loved your class, Gid, but I do have a question - why Dorian? Who was Dorian, exactly, anyway?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-05-20, 10:17 AM
I loved your class, Gid, but I do have a question - why Dorian? Who was Dorian, exactly, anyway?

Dorian? Dorian has become my default Seer-type name. Exactly what he is/was is fluid, depending on the setting of the game and my mood at the time. There are many Dorians. Kind of like you and some of your characters. :smallbiggrin:

Kellus
2009-05-20, 01:40 PM
For clarity I recommend that each place you have "If your mind ever lapses, you lose access to this ability." you add the clause "until you successfully repartition your mind." since just taking damage would be a really weak-sauce way to permanently loose a bunch of class features, and I REALLY don't think you meant it that way... I could check the crunch for "divided mind" but I am pretty tired right now, so I won't.

Good catch, and fixed.

Lord_Gareth
2009-05-20, 05:39 PM
My creation, the Children of the Mausoleum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6123947&postcount=6) are mechanically complete and ready to be PEACHed. Have at it!

ErrantX
2009-05-20, 09:07 PM
My creation, the Children of the Mausoleum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6123947&postcount=6) are mechanically complete and ready to be PEACHed. Have at it!

Okay, first off: Wow. This is probably one the best works I've seen you put out, and I've been a fan of your works for a while. This is just incredibly good. The fluff of the class and it's abilities (please please please fill in the rest of the fluff! :D) are quite awesome. The way you're utilizing it's spell progression is quite elegant actually, I approve wholeheartedly. Just a few comments:

One: You misspelled neutral for the alignment requirement. I would also add Spell Focus (necromancy) as a feat requirement. It's not like they're not going to want it anyhow.
Two: You should give them all of the Summon Undead spells (which are conjuration spells) for the spell lists as well as allowing them to spontaneously channel those (just like if they were using summon nature's ally). You may want to mention that it does not in anyway continue to advance the druid class's spell list with advancement, just uses the spells per day chart. Or if I'm wrong in my assumption, make mention that they do continue to have access to the druid spell list.
Three: Your Call the Void ability looks unfinished, you seemed to have trailed off.
Four: Call the Ancients should be split into two abilities (can totally have them the same level if ya want). I'd suggest building the create undead ability as an advancement of the Call the Grave-Born ability (i.e. at 9th level the ability improves to create undead instead of just animate dead) and using the twin auras ability as it's own class feature. That way you still get both, but it doesn't look like the twin auras were just tacked on to the ability.
Five: Your capstone, Life and Death, when it raises someone with the undead type, do they become any specific sort of undead (or could they?) or do they simply change types and get all the goods and bads associated with it? Perhaps they gain the gravetouched ghoul template or the vampire template? Necropolitan? Otherwise, it's great.

I can't tell you how much I love the Haunting ability, Grave-woods, Bone Vines, Bone Orchards, etc. That's just awesome stuff man. I love love love it. I'm definitely putting this in your top 5 best works (in my mind). Great job!

-X

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-05-20, 09:23 PM
ErrantX pretty much covered everything I had to say, Gareth. There seem to be no glaring weak points in this class, and if there are any flaws, the awesomeness covers them so well that I can barely find them.

The only thing I'm concerned about is the +4 to the DC of necromancy spells. +4 seems a little potent, especially since a class with such a necromantic focus may well spring for Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus. I'd put the DC bonus at +2 rather than +4, but that's the only change I'd make.

I'll keep an eye on it though...I may have missed something. That said, barring a truly impressive class popping up, you may well have just won my vote. :smallbiggrin:

ErrantX
2009-05-20, 09:53 PM
Kellus and TSED, I will critique yours sometime this evening. Don't think that I'm playing favorites or anything :P TSED, yours for example, made me laugh out loud several times :D

Expect my reviews this evening!

-X

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-05-20, 09:55 PM
Don't think that I'm playing favorites or anything...

Gareth and I don't think...

...we know. :smallbiggrin:




...kidding, of course. :smallbiggrin:

DracoDei
2009-05-20, 11:21 PM
Clumping the levels together in twos every other level offends my mathmatical sensibilities. Other than that... I will have to read more closely...

ErrantX
2009-05-21, 12:53 AM
@TSED:

Okay, my review of your class, take it or leave it. First off, this is one of the funniest classes I've ever read. Like, seriously, I lol'd all over the place. Well done, very witty. The fluff is both amusing and constructive to the crunch.

A New Direction is a potent ability in that it adds new possibilities to a character's limited spells known so always a good plus for bards. Less Taxing is also quite potent, due to the fact that there are some bardic music feats like Ironskin Chant that could get a lot more mileage, but as it's bard based, it's not overwhelming. Angry Fans is a good way to get small change, and Manufactured Sound is a great class feature. Opens up a lot of doors without having to take some crappy feats.

Hate Mail made me almost die laughing. It's potent, free magic goodies, but they can't be sold or fed to an artificer for anything so it's great. Just awesome :D

I'm not familiar enough with Luck feats to say anything about it, but it's probably not a bad deal. Corporate Tools is cool, but some DM's don't allow Leadership. That being said, I still don't think it's a problem. Interview Expert is great, I like it, but Shunned is a bit strong. The invisibility thing is strong, but very specific so I'd let it go in my games. Lawsuit is freakin' AWESOME :D

Corporate Zombies and Sold Out are totally fine as well. I dig em.

All in all, a hilarious class. I laughed quite a lot when reading it with my wife. Thank you :)

@Kellus:

Interesting fluff, I see you're going for a 'fallen wilder' sort of thing? Interesting idea, it's nice to see someone doing something with that class. It's woefully bad. Anyhow...

Divided Mind is real strong, but... as you're wilder based, it becomes a little more reasonable. The drawbacks from taking damage also help offset this to make it a very reasonable and balanced ability, in my eye. Subconscious Wild Surge is a great ability, helps offset the ML loss for the lower mind, Wilder needs Expanded Knowledge like fighters need more to do :D

Surge of Rationality is great, as is Redundancy. Thought Process is friggin' awesome, great flavor to it. Suppress Passions is a good class feature, and the capstone is both potent and distinct for the class. Fits quite awesomely.

All in all, I love the class. As far as fitting into the theme of the contest, while it isn't what I was looking for, I still think it's great and definitely fits the spirit of it. I'd like to see some more fluff on the class and see more on where this class came from, and how people react to them. I think that will go a long way towards making this fit the Fallen, but not Forgotten theme. Good work!

-X

Lord_Gareth
2009-05-21, 07:37 AM
I've fixed the mechanics and added the "casting time" for Create Haunting, as well as splitting up Call the Ancients. Thank'ee kindly for the PEACHes :D

As far as Life and Death goes, they just gain the undead type, with all the benefits and drawbacks thereof - effectively meaning that a Child can bring you back up to twice at (almost) no cost: once when you die as a living being, and then again if you die as an undead one.

Lord_Gareth
2009-05-21, 11:24 AM
And my fluff is now finished! YAY!

Kellus
2009-05-21, 11:34 AM
Hmm. I really like the Children, but a few things caught my attention–

• In a few places you refer to the class as the Tomb Orphan, which I assume was the previous name of the class.

EDIT: Duh, I just saw in your fluff that Tomb Orphan is an alternate name for the class. That'll teach me to skip straight to the crunch. Objection withdrawn! :smalltongue:

• Charnal Touch adds inflict spells to your class spell list, but those spells are already from the school of necromancy, so they're already on his spell list as a result of Rite of Passage. In addition, "inflict" isn't a descriptor for the spell, it's just part of the spell name.

• How long is the duration of Wake the Slumbering Mind? If it's permanent, it should probably say so.

• The Bone Orchard mentions it can be destroyed, but it doesn't explain how. Similarly, it says that the Child can infuse an undead with negative energy once per round, but it doesn't say what type of action that is.

• On another note for Bone Orchard, it says it creates a "forty foot circle". Is that a 40ft. radius or a 40ft. diameter circle?

• Does Destruction to Rebirth occur immediately, or does the creature that died need to wait at all before it can be reborn? As it stands, it sounds like if you kill someone with an inflict light wounds spell, they can immediately choose to turn into a ghoul on your turn. Is that how it's supposed to work?

• I read your reply to ErrantX, but I'm still a little unclear on Life and Death. When they're brought back as an undead, do they lose their Con score and gain tons of immunities and everything, or is it just in name only? If they do change their stats, you should probably refer to a template like Necropolitan so people know what to apply to their characters.

Otherwise, this looks like a really fun, flavourful class! Great job! :smallsmile:

-=-

Thanks for the review, ErrantX. I know the class is a little different from what was intended for the contest, but I wanted to try making a "fallen" character who had abandoned something other than just an alignment. In this case, a wilder who has abandoned their emotions. I'll get more of the fluff done so you can get the feel of the class, but I'm glad you liked it! :smallwink:

ErrantX
2009-05-21, 11:35 AM
And my fluff is now finished! YAY!

Excellent, well done!

-X

Lord_Gareth
2009-05-21, 11:41 AM
Hmm. I really like the Children, but a few things caught my attention–

• In a few places you refer to the class as the Tomb Orphan, which I assume was the previous name of the class.

EDIT: Duh, I just saw in your fluff that Tomb Orphan is an alternate name for the class. That'll teach me to skip straight to the crunch. Objection withdrawn! :smalltongue:

• Charnal Touch adds inflict spells to your class spell list, but those spells are already from the school of necromancy, so they're already on his spell list as a result of Rite of Passage. In addition, "inflict" isn't a descriptor for the spell, it's just part of the spell name.

And here I thought they were Conjuration. Thanks for being consistent, WotC! *******s...


• How long is the duration of Wake the Slumbering Mind? If it's permanent, it should probably say so.

Can do.


• The Bone Orchard mentions it can be destroyed, but it doesn't explain how. Similarly, it says that the Child can infuse an undead with negative energy once per round, but it doesn't say what type of action that is.

Swift action, and they're trees. Smash them like you would smash trees.


• On another note for Bone Orchard, it says it creates a "forty foot circle". Is that a 40ft. radius or a 40ft. diameter circle?

Diameter; edit forthcoming.


• Does Destruction to Rebirth occur immediately, or does the creature that died need to wait at all before it can be reborn? As it stands, it sounds like if you kill someone with an inflict light wounds spell, they can immediately choose to turn into a ghoul on your turn. Is that how it's supposed to work?

Eh, I'll put in a 24 hour delay.


• I read your reply to ErrantX, but I'm still a little unclear on Life and Death. When they're brought back as an undead, do they lose their Con score and gain tons of immunities and everything, or is it just in name only? If they do change their stats, you should probably refer to a template like Necropolitan so people know what to apply to their characters.

...You're undead, with the benefits and drawbacks of the type. Undead don't have con scores. Undead have D12 hit die. Undead have [rest of undead stuff here]. How complicated can it possibly be?


Otherwise, this looks like a really fun, flavourful class! Great job! :smallsmile:

Thank'ee ^_^

Khatoblepas
2009-05-21, 02:02 PM
Posted the Illuminated Priest's mechanics. Working on the fluff now. x3

DeskChairLamp
2009-05-21, 08:22 PM
I've just posted the first draft for the Drifting Petal Ascendant.

Lord_Gareth
2009-05-22, 09:15 PM
Anyone else noticed that our newest contest has yet to be stickied?

ErrantX
2009-05-22, 10:19 PM
Not for lack of trying. I've PM'd a few mods to do it and they just either haven't gotten around to it, forgot, or don't care to.

Either way, I'll keep trying.

-X

Lord_Gareth
2009-05-25, 12:21 AM
A sidebar on the Children's beliefs has been added to the "Playing a Child of the Mausoleum" section.

Pramxnim
2009-05-25, 08:40 AM
I've submitted my entry, the Sin Knight. This is very much a work in progress and it will see many updates as I work out the kinks in the design and fill in the fluff.
Feedback is much appreciated, as always!

EDIT: The crunch is now done. Fluffy time awaits! (anyone spot the reference?)

ErrantX
2009-05-25, 01:10 PM
I like the added fluff Gareth, nice stuff.

I've got 3 new prestige classes that I am eagerly awaiting the finishing of so I may PEACH them properly. Great starts to all three of them. Sin Knight is particularly interesting to me because of the 7 paths it offers. Good stuff!

-X

Pramxnim
2009-05-26, 03:29 AM
And....... the fluff is done!
God I hate making sample characters, especially high level ones :smallmad:

I'm really glad with the way Raven turned out to be though :smallsmile:, I might convince one of my friends to use her in a future campaign :smalltongue:.

Did no one get the fluffy time reference?

Samb
2009-05-26, 04:20 AM
I've put in my entry, the partitioned mind. This is a wilder who has forsaken the emotional and uncontrollable nature of her powers and sealed all of her emotions into a corner of her mind far from her conscious thoughts. :smallsmile:

I liked this entry a lot but some things could be improved on. First, the name is a class feature of sanctified mind.

A permanent schismed mind could make for a very power PrC, and with wild surge and practised manifester allows you to manifest powers at full power all the time. But that being said, this PrC needs to be BETTER than schism or there is no point in picking it to begin with. And I have to say divided mind did not do that. I'll start at the top:

As a wilder entry the 1/2 BAB is not good at all. Most wilders play gish and 3/4 as gish is bad enough. Nice that you had wild surge progression but where is the surging euphoria progression?

The requirements are way too steep for a wilder also. 3 powers from telepathy is only doable for a telepath or a wilder that has taken cognition thief PrC. And a Synad with levels in cognition thief would have schism with extended power on it already and might benefit more just completing that PrC in favor of this one. Even if you used a mantled or educated variant (found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) the power investment for a wilder is prohibitive.

As a telepath entry this is a lot easier, but again divided mind loses a lot of its appeal since you can manifest and pick schism already without EK.

Schism lets you use all your PP too, not divided up, which is better than saving that 7 PP. Sure you save time, but most likely you would have manifested schism under temporal accel, or linked power to start with. Again, divided mind is inferior to schism in that you can't use wild surge with your upper mind. It's true that most wilders surge under schism to bypass ennervation but I like having the option to surge twice if i have to.

The bonus EK is nice, and the makes up for the lose of EK from the educated variant, but its upper mind only. Again these are all un-surgeable, and hence more expensive to put metapsionic feats on for a wilder that is used to using wild surges to pay for them (like me).

Your capstone is confusing, since the lower mind can't do move actions to begin with.

As it stands, I just don't see why this really benefits a psion or wilder since schism or synad multitask would be better. I never underestimate a psion with wild surge (not overchannel) but dividing up your PP seems like a bad idea.

It has potential but you need to really make the divided mind feature better than schism or I just don't see the point, and losing BAB is just plain bad.


Quick and dirty why to build a wilder (by yours truly):
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4368.0
I don't know how you play wilder (not many people do), but here's the few tid-bits I got from the CO boards and my own experience.

Khatoblepas
2009-05-26, 04:29 AM
The Illuminated Priest is now all fluffed up with no place to go. I'd like some PEACH on it :3

DeskChairLamp
2009-05-26, 09:19 PM
Drifting Petal Ascendant's done, aside from the sample encounter. Nonetheless, ready for PEACHing.

Samb
2009-05-26, 10:33 PM
Oh and lulz on the sellout. That might just get my vote for just being plain awesome.

Bhu
2009-05-27, 05:28 AM
Can we do an Epic level PrC?

I have a couple of ideas and one is epic

boomwolf
2009-05-27, 12:03 PM
Nothing says you cant.

Nice contest, can i resubmit my IX entry? (:P)

Anyways, got an idea.

Healer of the Dead.

Name is very confusing, per see-its not a livign healing the dead, its a dead healing the living! (by some very, very noble means, sacrificing his own hitpoint, his capstone ability I have in mind is actually potentially fatal even in full health!)

ErrantX
2009-05-27, 05:12 PM
I will check out those three classes tonight and PEACH them. As far as Epic, go nuts. Nothing says you can't. :)

-X

Samb
2009-05-28, 02:03 PM
I was going to pass on this contest especially since there is a psionic entry in already but inspiration has struck me!

I was thinking of a Dexter like character, a psychopath that masquades as law enforcement to try and satisfy has homicidial tendancies only tobe unsatisfied and takes matters into his own hands. Would that qualify for a fallen character? He follows the code of law enforcement as a facade but betrays it in spirit.

Maybe go for inquisitor or rogue entry. Is that kosher for this contest?

ErrantX
2009-05-28, 07:11 PM
I was going to pass on this contest especially since there is a psionic entry in already but inspiration has struck me!

I was thinking of a Dexter like character, a psychopath that masquades as law enforcement to try and satisfy has homicidial tendancies only tobe unsatisfied and takes matters into his own hands. Would that qualify for a fallen character? He follows the code of law enforcement as a facade but betrays it in spirit.

Maybe go for inquisitor or rogue entry. Is that kosher for this contest?

I dig it. Go for it!

I'm actually working on a couple of different things in relation to this contest, but sadly, as I am running it and it would be sort of a conflict of interest, I obviously won't be posting it in the contest thread. But when I get done with it, look for it!

-X

Samb
2009-05-29, 10:39 AM
Hmm I can't think of what the entry class should be for my Dexter class. Maybe factotum or rogue since they have the skill set, but none of them give that detective/batman feel. Sneak attack certainly has that serial killer feel though...
I think I have the class features down though just need an entry class.

Pramxnim
2009-05-29, 11:04 AM
Homebrew a base-class to go with your PrC? :smalltongue:

Aergoth
2009-05-29, 02:47 PM
I think I managed to get all of it together, my PrC is posted. The Knight-Revanent is set.

Samb
2009-05-31, 01:17 AM
Some fall from a code of conduct but how many can claim to have fallen from humanity itself?

My PrC: The Heartless is up. +1 to anyone that can guess my obvious inspiration.

boomwolf
2009-05-31, 01:24 AM
Well, no time to finish the class and I wont be around until its over, so I'm out again.

Sucks to be me.

Pramxnim
2009-05-31, 02:06 AM
@Samb: Kingdom hearts, I presume?

@Boomwolf: It's unfortunate that you couldn't take part in this contest. Better luck next time, I hope!

Samb
2009-05-31, 01:14 PM
@Samb: Kingdom hearts, I presume?

@Boomwolf: It's unfortunate that you couldn't take part in this contest. Better luck next time, I hope!


Kingdom hearts has serial killers in it. Anyway, I would like a PEACH on my creation. Too powerful? Not player friendly? Let me have it!

Krimm_Blackleaf
2009-05-31, 07:59 PM
I'm dropping a sample of what I've been working on very slowly(which is kind of only being done after my house-sitting duties), which I hope to finish before the deadline. So just kind of letting you guys know I'm alive.

Knight of Andras
"Soon you will see your folley, your mistakes of passion. Soon you'll see your anger... your love... your sadness was all for nothing. It would lead you to me, and I am the lance that will destroy you. I care so little for your war I am tempted to walk away right now... but I will not because I'm being paid. Goodbye."
-Alkus Black to a downed opponent.

http://fc03.deviantart.com/fs31/f/2008/233/f/8/black_by_tobiee.jpg
Alkus Black, a knight of Andras

TSED
2009-05-31, 08:22 PM
@TSED:

Okay, my review of your class, take it or leave it. First off, this is one of the funniest classes I've ever read. Like, seriously, I lol'd all over the place. Well done, very witty. The fluff is both amusing and constructive to the crunch.

A New Direction is a potent ability in that it adds new possibilities to a character's limited spells known so always a good plus for bards. Less Taxing is also quite potent, due to the fact that there are some bardic music feats like Ironskin Chant that could get a lot more mileage, but as it's bard based, it's not overwhelming. Angry Fans is a good way to get small change, and Manufactured Sound is a great class feature. Opens up a lot of doors without having to take some crappy feats.

Thanks! I know that when I think about playing a bard, all I do is remember the ginormous list of critters in which I can do pretty nothing about, go 'ughhhh' and go 'nevermind I'll go play something less gimpy.'

I know that bards aren't ACTUALLY super-gimpy, and that people have done amazing things with them, but... I just don't like being that situationally shut out and I am not the best optimizer, you know?

This made Manufactured Sound a shoe-in for effect, ESPECIALLY since the name came so easily.



Hate Mail made me almost die laughing. It's potent, free magic goodies, but they can't be sold or fed to an artificer for anything so it's great. Just awesome :D

My favourite part too.


I'm not familiar enough with Luck feats to say anything about it, but it's probably not a bad deal.

Blah blah blah pick a thing to reroll before you know the result (failure / success), and some of them give a slight bonus to something (usually a +2 to your worst save I think). Not game breaking but nice to have in a pinch. Since you don't have to meet the prerequisites, you'll probably go for one of the better ones, but two saving throw rerolls a day isn't really that gamebreaking either.


Corporate Tools is cool, but some DM's don't allow Leadership. That being said, I still don't think it's a problem.

Well, if that was the case surely the DM'd find a replacement ability. Or, you know, just that 'bonus feat.'


Interview Expert is great, I like it, but Shunned is a bit strong. The invisibility thing is strong, but very specific so I'd let it go in my games. Lawsuit is freakin' AWESOME :D

Corporate Zombies and Sold Out are totally fine as well. I dig em.

Glad you like it. Shunned is so specific I can't really see it ever being practical. Who ever heard of a bardic BBEG?


All in all, a hilarious class. I laughed quite a lot when reading it with my wife. Thank you :)


No, Thank YOU. I was going to come back and redo some bits, but with the positive feedback I think I just need to clarify some things.

ErrantX
2009-06-01, 01:18 AM
@Krimm Blackleaf:

Hope to see it. That's a wicked picture. As always, I look forward to seeing what works you come up with!

@TSED:

My pleasure. As I said, a great and funny work!

-X

Aergoth
2009-06-01, 11:49 AM
Would someone mind PEACH-ing the Knight-Revenant?

Samb
2009-06-01, 02:06 PM
Would someone mind PEACH-ing the Knight-Revenant?

I'll give you one right now.

The whole fallen pally/knight is a bit overused (which is why creations like the sellout and children of the mausoleum seem so unique) but they do seem to be naturals for this contest so I'll let it slide.

The pronouncement abilities seems a bit too powerful. The DC on them is basically 10+CL+KR levels and will save too. I suppose since you lose your pally spells this might be ok but the potential for battlefield control is really high. Also you did not specify what the range of this is.

Atonement seems a bit underwhelming for a capstone other than getting all your spells back.

Overall, I felt that this is not really a class I'd want to play but I did like the flavor. I'm guessing it is based on the skull knight of Berserk? If so add in the dimensional door effect for the sword for extra coolness.

Stycotl
2009-06-01, 07:44 PM
smaller pic would be nice samb.

Samb
2009-06-01, 09:41 PM
Sigh I ask for a PEACH and all people notice is the picture and the name.
I'm a sad panda
Changed the pic, it seems to fit the killer theme anyways

Stycotl
2009-06-02, 05:00 PM
Sigh I ask for a PEACH and all people notice is the picture and the name.
I'm a sad panda
Changed the pic, it seems to fit the killer theme anyways

that's how it works–people judge books by their covers. the name of the homebrew, the formatting, and any associated pics are going to speak pages of information to people, and are going to tell them whether they want to stick around and read the whole thing or not. as far as i am concerned, when i have to scroll sideways back and forth in order to read a post because of the size of a photo on the page, it is usually not a good sign. similarly, when i have to wade through the text of an unformatted, badly formatted, or poorly spelled work, i generally lose interest fast.

that's how it goes.

now, let me go look at it on the contest thread again and see if i can find anything constructive to say about the class itself (i'm not going back to your dexter thread, because the large image over there is bugging me)...

DeskChairLamp
2009-06-04, 05:04 AM
I'd like a PEACH on the Drifting Petal Ascendant, if anyone could give one, seeing as the deadline's coming up...

TSED
2009-06-05, 01:39 AM
I'd like a PEACH on the Drifting Petal Ascendant, if anyone could give one, seeing as the deadline's coming up...

I skipped over most of the fluff because I am not in the mood to scale Walls Of Text, sorry about that. But here's from some of my thoughts:


A Drifting Petal Ascendant is immune to all compulsion effects

Kind of overpowered for 1st level ability, no? Maybe spread it throughout the PrC a bit? Especially with fast move and the soul ability on top.

Try starting it out as the DC diplomacy +10 and adding saves and eventual immunity near the end? You kept adding immunities, but that one is probably the most powerful and they get it FIRST. It makes sense from fluff, just seems mechanically out of place.

Speaking of soul abilities:



Sakura Storm = whirlwind attack on crack, and no feat chain needed! On the other hand, it's got limited uses... Yeah I guess it's fine.

Does Soul Smite stack with improved crit / keen?



Furthermore, she automatically knows the alignment of any humanoid creature within ten feet of her. The ascendant increases her wisdom score by 1.

Automatically know the alignment? No save? What about the spell Undetectable Alignment? I'd make it so she can make a sense motive check vs bluff check +10 or something as a free action. If they engage in a prolonged conversation, just sense motive vs bluff. Later on improve it a bit so it can penetrate Undetectable Alignment.

Bhu
2009-06-05, 03:11 AM
I don't think I'm gonna make it in time. Sorry guys. Guess I'll try next time.

DeskChairLamp
2009-06-05, 03:26 AM
@TSED
Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I'll work on the vague points and do something about the immunity and alignment sense.

Khatoblepas
2009-06-05, 11:31 AM
Can someone PEACH the Illuminated Priest before this contest is over? I've been dying for some feedback on just about any aspect of it. I'll PEACH someone elses' in return, if they want. x3

DracoDei
2009-06-05, 11:37 AM
I know the feeling, and actually I have been trying...(if it isn't one thing its another and I keep having it get lost in the tabs).



Ok... here goes... it seems a BIT odd that they keep the same domains since they are now drawing power from a different place... make them end up with the Healing domain and either Good or Fire???

Good to see someone breaking out of the 5 or 10 mold for number of levels. Was that just how many levels it fit over, or is that a reference to the number of hours of daylight in an average day?


At 12th level, the aura has become something completely frightening, even to living creatures.
Yet you list no morale effect at all on living creatures.


At 12th level, on a critical hit, the undead must make a fortitude save or be destroyed.
Needs the DC specified.

The Radiant Touch stuff sounds good... but they are also getting what are fluffed as called shots without a penalty to the attack roll... seems slightly off in that regard...


Radiant Spell
It seems obvious, but specify that it is once a round, on the PrC members turn (probably at the end of it), that they need to save.



They still need 8 hours of rest before praying for their spells, however.
Clerics don't need rest AFAIK... they just can only prepare each slot once a day, and not if it has been used in the last 8 hours.

And here we go...
Saw something new about a section I already commented on so reread it below, even though some is a repeat.


Reckless Healing:
You forgot to bold this. Also, this actually DISCOURAGES a CHA score above say... 14 or so, since it a fight in D&D isn't likely to last that long (especially since the extra hp comes off first) so all the CHA is doing is upping the save DC.


Oath of Noon:
Emphasize that some of these spells are gotten at MUCH lower levels than they would normally be. Also, the Extra-planar thing, combined with no resistance/immunity to blowing up granted from the class, COULD make this instant death if they end up in a strongly positive dominant area from a Dismissal... probably not likely in most campaign settings, but worth mentioning.


Oath of the Eternal Sun:
Give them "Eschew Material Components" too, for the same reason you made them a living holy symbol.



In the combat section you say "and their radiant touch can eventually destroy undead outright." well... they aren't outright IMMUNE to the undead (including ranged attacks and spells at the higher levels), and even 1d4+12 is NOT very high damage, especially when they can only do it every 5 rounds.

Just occurred to me that Animal, and especially Plant would be good choices for what they can get in addition to Healing to replace existing domains.


Your detailing of there mindset is insightful and I really only have one small problem here... the description of how the sacrifice to the positive energy plane is made very much merits a "(see below for how this is accomplished)" or even moving that part to a special paragraph in or under the requirements section (if below, make it a footnote).

Also, what are the rules if the target makes their save/SR against the Plane Shift?


P.S. I will take my return PEACH on the Rolling Eyeballs, Dark Hearts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112980)(both of which are in the same post), and the "Blocker" Feat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113722)... and don't feel like you have to do more than skim most of the table for the dark hearts... just look at the Diminutive ones, and skim the rest to get an idea for hp, HD, and other comparative stats in a very rough way.

Khatoblepas
2009-06-05, 01:15 PM
DracoDei: Alright! This is what I'm talking about. :3 I'll make some changes and clarifications as soon as I have the time (in about an hour or so) and I'll get to looking at your undeads!

And yeah, the 12 levels do represent hours, which is why Morning is the 1st, Noon the 6th hour, and then there is no sunset, like you would expect, since they're forever illuminated.

Thanks for the critique :3

DracoDei
2009-06-05, 04:19 PM
Have looked through to see what an how you fixed things...
You have a special ability italized rather than bolded in one place despite it being marked as supernatural rather than spell-like... something with the word "Sun" in it I think.

You also have some garbling with the formatting for the title of the ritual with the gem. (Nice solution on that too I think... not insta-lose, but also something that an unsuspecting NPC would be very unlikely to escape if they are the sort to keep gems in with coinage as merely money that they access from time to time.)

((P.S. Don't forget to PEACH the undead))

Bergor Terraf
2009-06-05, 05:14 PM
I just posted mine : The Focused Rager

It's not complete but the rules are complete

Someone mind peach-ing it?

Pramxnim
2009-06-05, 11:13 PM
The Focused Rager looks like a cool concept. A Barbarian that has learned to let out his rage in controlled bursts. The mechanics need some work though.

Burst of Rage (Ex): The number of Bursts of Rage you can use is enormous, but I guess that's to be expected with the class using it all the time. I assume that the pool is renewed once per day? Otherwise you'd run out before you know it.
Still, the number of uses could get to be a bit much. A character first entering the class has 7+Con mod Bursts of Rage per day. At level 5 in the class, they have 15+3xCon per day, and at level 10, they have 25+5xCon uses per day. Even with the liberal use of the ability, you would have more than enough to just spam it all.

I suggest making it usable Character level + Con, and then increasing it to Character level + 3xCon at most. Or maybe 2xFocused Rager level + 3xCon at most.

Burst of Strength (Ex): First of all, specify the action to use Burst of Strength. Is it a free action, a swift action or an immediate action (for AoOs)?

I like the limit of times per encounter you can use Burst of Strength, although that will contribute to making Burst of Rage a limitless resource (you only run into 3-4 encounters per day, tops)

Raging Muscle (Ex): Eh.. I would have liked it to scale at least once. Maybe +4, then +8? Do specify the type of action as well. If it's an immediate action, it could help on Strength checks like when Bull Rushed or Tripped.

Ignore Pain (Ex): Again, specify the type of action. Although in this case, I'd make it immediate, and maybe increase the DR a bit (10 at level 10?)

Raging Mind (Ex): The bonus is fine, but the action should be immediate.

Infinite Rage (Ex): A bit too punishing for the bonuses it gives, but I'm not a good judge on balance. If you feel this is the power level you're comfortable with giving him, sure. Personally, I'd lower the damage he takes from the ability (1/2 Str bonus gained by Burst of Strength is enough, methinks). The mechanics of this ability really doesn't fit the name. I was thinking of something more related to duration, but that's just me.

Also, does Burst of Rage qualify as Rage for Rage feats? How does it interact with those, if at all. I guess that's another thing to consider.





PS: Anyone willing to PEACH the Sin Knight?

DracoDei
2009-06-06, 12:59 AM
(you only run into 3-4 encounters per day, tops)

Depends on the GM...

Pramxnim
2009-06-06, 01:13 AM
On average, on average :smallbiggrin:

ErrantX
2009-06-08, 03:28 PM
Today and tomorrow and we're all done here. I swear I will try to PEACH the contest entries I haven't, but RL has been exceptionally busy lately. If I can't PEACH it tonight or tomorrow, I will extend the contest to the end of the week. Everyone's hard work deserves at least one going over and review by someone.

Keep em coming tho!

-X

Realms of Chaos
2009-06-08, 07:02 PM
The Forsworn is probably one of the most overpowered things that I have ever seen in my entire lifetime... and I love it.

Seriously though, for 10 levels (with easy prerequisites), you gain a +2 bonus on everything vs. good guys, 10 smites per day, four powerful "reversed" vows, good guys need a will save to notice that your evil (even if you kick puppies), you can shrug off any attack from a good guy with a saving throw, you send non-evil summoned creatures back from whence they came, and you regain all of your vow feats without needing to maintain their tenants.

With just vow of poverty and vow of peace alone, that is very powerful.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2009-06-09, 04:52 AM
I'm beginning to think I was tooting my own horn a little too hard when I gave that little peek into what I had in the works. I don't think I'm going to have it done by the deadline, so I suppose I have to bow out. But fear not, for I will have it done at SOME point. The biggest problem is that I have an Orichalcum Spire in my way, then job and possible moving soon so... yeah, sorry guys.:smallfrown:

Bergor Terraf
2009-06-09, 12:25 PM
Thanks Pramxnim for your help. I made the changes you suggested (especially the type of action for each special ability)

I also tweaked and renamed the last one. Since I reduced the number of Bursts of Rage, I increased the str bonus to +2 and reduced the damage by half. I will still ponder if this is good or not and maybe change it tonight.

Jogi
2009-06-09, 03:24 PM
The Sybil of the Blinded Eye is awesome.

ErrantX
2009-06-10, 04:56 PM
Due to my inability to look over those classes last night, I'm going to extend the contest out to Friday, and start the voting on Saturday. This should give me the time to PEACH those classes I have yet to, and let any new entrants get in if they so desire.

Sorry guys if it's inconvenient, but hey, you get a few extra days to tweak your stuff to make sure it's perfect for the voting.

-X

P.S. I have some ideas for the next contests, but does anyone want to give me their ideas? If so, PM me :)

DracoDei
2009-06-10, 05:22 PM
Wow... I must be precognitive... I send you an idea a week or two ago via PM. I take it you didn't like it that much?

ErrantX
2009-06-12, 05:17 PM
@Khatoblepas

Okay, I like the concept, the healer that just takes it a little too far. I get it. The Healing Hands class feature is a Healer class thing, I presume. The first thing I notice is that it's rather intensive to enter. You either have to be a paladin (lousy healer), healer (lousy healer), or a multiclass ex-paladin or ex-healer / cleric. While having a prestige class that is built on mutliclassing is not at all out there, having a prestige class built on multiclassing classes you can't do anything with anymore is a little different. If the goal is straight up healer (the second optimal class), then that's fine. Also, the exalted Vows required to get in... no. That's a bad idea. Because you're asking your prospect to bow a couple feats that they can't ever use again and gain absolutely nothing to show of it from their class features. If the features of the class actually returned them or changed them, I'd say go. But otherwise, this is a bad idea. Lastly, the human sacrifice? Really? Where does this fit into the rest of the class? Why? More detail on the Rite would help tons!

On to the crunch. Your class features are all around pretty good, actually. In fact, I don't think I have a single bad thing to say about any of them. They're not overpowered, they're very reasonable and flavorful. They help set the tone of the class and provide with a potent basis to re-empower an ex-healer (and make them tons more worthwhile).

To the fluff: It's good stuff man. Arrogant, full of themselves and utterly believing in their insane methodology that life is more important than people. This is a prime example of being so good you're evil. This is really good. Outside of your clunky entry requirements, I really have to say this is a great class.

@DeskChairLamp

First off: I love the picture. Beautiful artwork. Good find there (or especially good work if you're the one who made it!). Your opening is very well put together, gives a great flow into the class. The requirements are sound, but I'd suggest either picking one or two of those feats and just make those the requirements. But that's MHO. I love your code of conduct system for this class, it gives a great "Fallen from Order" feel. Your Ascensions are beautifully named and interesting, and the soul abilities (giving the definite Eastern feel to the class, of rogue samurai who master their ki energy) are useful and makes former paladins incredibly bad ass (if they're even former!).

My only quibble is with Sakura Ascension, and it's on the stat boost. It's unusual for a stat boost to be a simple +1, I'd say a +2 to one of those stats (player's choice), and honestly, I'd either make it a bonus to Charisma or to Wisdom.

Also the retaining of certain abilities from Samurai and Knight is great, I'd suggest making one for paladin too (they don't get enough love).

Otherwise, this is an awesome class. Great job!

@Pramxnim

Love the pic, and love the concept. This is really cool. The fluff is good, but my only question is where to Sin Knights learn their neat tricks from? Devils? From other Sin Knights? Or is it all from inspiration? That's where I'm lost. I see that there is rumor of organization, but... I think there needs to be more here. I'd also require them to be any non-good, and/or any non-lawful.

For the Sin powers:
Envy: It's first level is too strong, in my opinion. The shapechanger subtype opens it up to Warshaper cheese. I'd give the subtype, if at all, to the level 7 ability.
Gluttony: It's bite is really strong, perhaps a little too strong. I'd say just tone everything down with that. I'm also really seeing non-good at best for the alignment restriction from just this one.
Greed: is great :)
Lust: is even better ;)
Pride: is awesome too. Good stuff, makes for a more Knightly Sin Knight.
Sloth: is neat, and I'm glad that unless you focus on sloth, your sinful indulgence in it only works so well.
Wrath: This is fun stuff.

Sinful indulgence is needed, definitely, too much fun to pick from. Augment Sinful ability is awesome as well.

This is a great class with good fluff and strong abilities. I'd just suggest putting some alignment restrictions on it.


@Aergoth

It's like Ghostrider meets Spawn and had Lord Soth as a love child. It's pretty neat. I was dubious at first, but as I read it (sadly, it is hard to read due to non-boldings on ability headings) I found it very interesting.

Honestly, I have thing bad to say about the class features. The sword is a bit strong, but it's fun so I'd leave it in there. This allows the fallen hero type who died to come back, i.e. let's a player keep playing their character, and that's awesome. Good work.

Just because I don't have a lot to say, doesn't mean it's not bad, it means that I can't pick it apart because there isn't anything wrong with it.

More in a bit.
-X

ErrantX
2009-06-12, 06:00 PM
@Samb

While I love Dexter and love love love the character Dexter Morgan, I find it hard to imagine actually playing it as a PC. It would constantly divorce you from the rest of the party to have to go out and kill bad guys in a malicious sort of way. That being said, it makes for an awesome NPC class.

The ability to have two alignment types, un-traceability, etc are all absolutely necessary to the class and are not overpowering. They make the man, so to speak. It's very well put together and very simple to understand and utilize. I'd even consider making this guy an entire adventure set to try to catch (Dexter, Season 2!)

@Kornaki

Your class took me a few minutes to wrap my head around. I must say that I could be a scary ultimate magus based sorcerer on this class. That being said, I like what I see. The wizard turn over abilities are potent, but if I'm reading them right it's not overly so. My only question is on the 4-5 ability: If I have Spell Mastery in a spell, I can cast as a sorcerer as if it were a spell known? If that's true, then yay! A point to that feat! My only other suggestion is that instead of a +1 Int twice, have the character treat his Int as 2 points higher on those levels (like with the feat Spellcasting Prodigy) but not actually improve the attribute. I just think it needs something else in the earlier levels of the class, but I don't know what.

Simple and good. Nice work!

@Bergor Terraf

I think you just made Barbarian better by making it lawful. While I enjoy the concept, I'm not sure if I can really say it's a great class because it doesn't strike me as being a lawful barbarian; it strikes me as a barbarian who spends points to do crazy rage things. Honestly, without taking it the drawing board again I'm unfortunately unable to say one thing or the other. If this was a Monk class and it was refluffed and renamed I'd say it was awesome. But as a Barbarian class, I think it falls short. Sorry :(

@PairO'Dice Lost

I think I have to agree with Realms of Chaos completely; incredibly awesome all aspects, but too strong. I'd say tone some of these abilities down (just a little, nothing drastic) and this is absolutely perfect.

ErrantX
2009-06-12, 06:02 PM
Alrighty! That wraps up my reviews. Contest closes at midnight tonight. Voting begins tomorrow.

-X

ErrantX
2009-06-13, 01:58 AM
Voting is up! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6280092)

-X

Khatoblepas
2009-06-13, 12:48 PM
@Khatoblepas
Also, the exalted Vows required to get in... no. That's a bad idea. Because you're asking your prospect to bow a couple feats that they can't ever use again and gain absolutely nothing to show of it from their class features.
-X

Maybe I should have clarified it a little bit, but the vow breaking is vow, lower case. Not a feat Vow, but a promise you made. Roleplaying stuff. x3 Someone can have vowed to be a pacifist without having the Vow of Peace - if I required it I would have made it a feat prereq rather than Special. x3

ErrantX
2009-06-13, 01:23 PM
Maybe I should have clarified it a little bit, but the vow breaking is vow, lower case. Not a feat Vow, but a promise you made. Roleplaying stuff. x3 Someone can have vowed to be a pacifist without having the Vow of Peace - if I required it I would have made it a feat prereq rather than Special. x3

Gah! Foiled again by case sensitivity! XD

-X

Lord_Gareth
2009-06-25, 04:24 PM
So, what's the next contest gonna be?

ErrantX
2009-06-25, 05:46 PM
I'm trying to decide that myself actually. I've got two ideas that I'm trying to decide between, and if I have my way, the new contest will be up tonight. At the very least it will be up by the weekend.

-X

ErrantX
2009-06-26, 11:18 PM
New contest is up:

Can we Rebuild it? Yes we can! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116389)

You theme:

You will be creating an 'original' prestige class. Your class must have its own unique spellcasting or manifesting ability, be it a rebuilding spellcasting class (like the Sublime Chord), a class that has a small but specific set of spells (such as the Blackguard or the Suel Arcanamach), or one that has a whole suite of specific spells (such as the Ur-Priest or Blighter). The class otherwise can have any purpose, such as a holy warrior priest who focuses on healing, a manifesting class that focuses on elemental damage through her weapons, a meldshaper with a specific set of soulmelds for aerial combats, a mystery using shadow-druid with a penchant for duplicity, a martial adept with a small but specific list of invocations to aid his skills, a sneaky rogue that possesses a suite of illusionary spells to get his job done, a sorcerer who learns how to prepare spells and specialize those talents as a wizard, a battlefield controller who inspires his troops and uses walls to design his ideal battleground and so on. You may draw inspiration and rules from any source such as the Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, Magic of Incarnum, and so on and so forth. Just make sure it's original and new; no previous works please.

Enjoy and let us see what we get from you geniuses out there!

-X

boomwolf
2009-06-27, 02:52 PM
Soooo.....

A spellcaster with any focus?

Isn't that a bit too open-handed?


I suggest altering the conditions.


If they stay the same-I call dibs on a melee spellcaster (a caster with an armory of melee-reach, anti-melee and melee-enchanting spells.)

Eurus
2009-06-27, 03:35 PM
Interesting... I want to do something with Shadow Magic, I think. Perhaps a Shadow Magic-wielding paladin...

ErrantX
2009-06-27, 11:44 PM
Soooo.....

A spellcaster with any focus?

Isn't that a bit too open-handed?


I suggest altering the conditions.


If they stay the same-I call dibs on a melee spellcaster (a caster with an armory of melee-reach, anti-melee and melee-enchanting spells.)

So long as it has it's own spellcasting progression within the prestige class. The best basis I can give you for comparisons are things like the Sublime Chord, Ur-Priest, Blackguard, Suel Arcanamach, War Mind, Holy Liberator, Divine Champion, etc. Something that has it's own individual progression for some sort of spells or manifestation.

Go nuts.

I want to keep this stuff as restricted to a theme as I can, while still leaving it open for creativity to run wild. This way, I don't get 5-10 versions of the same class. This way, I get 5-10 truly different and unique classes. That's what I'm going for. And hopefully even more classes than just 5-10!

-X

Pramxnim
2009-06-28, 02:53 AM
What about something that seems like spellcasting, but really is not? A different mechanic that refreshes with each encounter?

To be more specific, does something that uses the Token system from Iron Heroes qualify?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-28, 10:52 AM
Wow. Very open-ended. I like it...although I'll admit the sheer quantity of possibilities is going to make me take a while. :smallbiggrin:

ErrantX
2009-06-28, 01:30 PM
What about something that seems like spellcasting, but really is not? A different mechanic that refreshes with each encounter?

To be more specific, does something that uses the Token system from Iron Heroes qualify?

So long as it has a separate mechanic than the simple "+1 to existing class level" stuff, I say go for it. Factotum introduced us to the Inspiration point system, Warlock introduced us to Invocations. If you don't have to write massive blocks of text to show how to use these abilities (because many of us may not have the Iron Heroes books, I know I do not), I say fine. If it is going to require it, I'd suggest either inventing your own mechanics or stay within WotC published materials.

-X

TSED
2009-06-28, 05:47 PM
I bet THERE'S an epic level wizard who gets mistaken for the familiar more times than he's comfortable with.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-28, 05:53 PM
I bet THERE'S an epic level wizard who gets mistaken for the familiar more times than he's comfortable with.

Interesting and unique. I don't have time for a real thorough look now (working on my own class for this thing), but I'd recommend a single change...make the spellcasting table read 1-10, referring to class level. Otherwise it gets confusing if a character puts off entering this class until level 11+.

TSED
2009-06-28, 05:56 PM
Interesting and unique. I don't have time for a real thorough look now (working on my own class for this thing), but I'd recommend a single change...make the spellcasting table read 1-10, referring to class level. Otherwise it gets confusing if a character puts off entering this class until level 11+.

Done.

I fully expect to tweak it a few times before the deadline. I keep looking at the Shape/Size warp and thinking "hmm, that should probably be earlier..."

EDIT:: Not to mention I have no idea if the capstone is overpowered or not.

Owrtho
2009-06-28, 06:15 PM
Well, not sure about how it would be balance wise, but it seems odd that a reshaped would loose supernatural abilities they had from class levels (makes sense for those from their race). After all, most are more along the lines of spells than extraordinary abilities, and the reshaped keeps their spells.

Owrtho

TSED
2009-06-28, 06:19 PM
Well, not sure about how it would be balance wise, but it seems odd that a reshaped would loose supernatural abilities they had from class levels (makes sense for those from their race). After all, most are more along the lines of spells than extraordinary abilities, and the reshaped keeps their spells.

Owrtho

Truth.

Hmm.

It was mostly a way to prevent stacking cheese, though. Imagine if a warlock went in? And kept his invocations, but grabbed all that spellcasting on top?

10th level warlock / 11th level caster gestalt is so not balanced with a typical level 11er. If you can come up with a way to balance it, sure, I'll make changes.

Pramxnim
2009-06-28, 07:54 PM
Ah, but Warlock Invocations are Spell-Like Abilities, so... you'd still keep them with the current wording I'm afraid.

To cover your bases, I suggest saying you lose all spellcasting and the ability to use invocations from your classes, and all (Ex) and (Su) abilities from your race. How's that sound?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-28, 10:14 PM
The Eerie Traveler is posted...

I'm worried it might be a little underpowered, but I think the power of some of it's invocations (which occasionally have a bit more kick than the traditional Warlock abilities) might make up for it.

Opinions?

fetfet
2009-06-28, 10:23 PM
Wyrdmage is up!

Owrtho
2009-06-28, 10:30 PM
The Eerie Traveler is posted...

I really like the idea of that class. Also the picture used is fun. Makes me want to play one. As for balance, I'm not sure.

Owrtho

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-28, 11:02 PM
I really like the idea of that class. Also the picture used is fun. Makes me want to play one. As for balance, I'm not sure.

Owrtho

Awesome. Thanks! :smallbiggrin:


Wyrdmage is up!

While I love the idea, it doesn't seem to have the unique spellcasting/power progression that the contest requires. He mentioned the Sublime Chord (advances spellcasting beyond what the Bard can normally achieve), Ur-Priest (grants a new sort of spellcasting), and others like that. The Wyrdmage seems to just advance casting normally...and thus doesn't qualify for this contest.

Unless I've missed something, of course.

Salvonus
2009-06-28, 11:06 PM
Hmm... I'm kinda tempted to make a homebrewing debut in this contest, but I seriously doubt I could make anything good enough to challenge you lot. :smallwink:

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-28, 11:08 PM
Hmm... I'm kinda tempted to make a homebrewing debut in this contest, but I seriously doubt I could make anything good enough to challenge you lot. :smallwink:

Oh please, Sally. You're an incredibly creative person, and pretty much everyone here is willing to help if your mechanics need a bit of a touch-up. I, for one, would love to see what you can whip up. :smallbiggrin:

mercurymaline
2009-06-29, 12:08 AM
Alright, I've decided to get involved in all this contest jazz. Pariahmind is posted.

ErrantX
2009-06-29, 02:18 AM
Wyrdmage is up!


While I love the idea, it doesn't seem to have the unique spellcasting/power progression that the contest requires. He mentioned the Sublime Chord (advances spellcasting beyond what the Bard can normally achieve), Ur-Priest (grants a new sort of spellcasting), and others like that. The Wyrdmage seems to just advance casting normally...and thus doesn't qualify for this contest.

Unless I've missed something, of course.

This is correct, unfortunately your class is currently not qualified for the contest. While I like the idea behind it, for your class to qualify you're going to need to give its own spellcasting progression that has nothing to do with any base class's progression. Look to classes like the Blackguard, Assassin, Sublime Chord, Blighter, Suel Arcanamach, and many others for examples.

-X

Pramxnim
2009-06-29, 10:09 AM
Ok, I've posted my second attempt at realizing the class concept from FFTactics. I need some good suggestions for naming the Geomancy abilities, as they seem very uninspiring to me right now.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-29, 11:00 AM
Ok, I've posted my second attempt at realizing the class concept from FFTactics. I need some good suggestions for naming the Geomancy abilities, as they seem very uninspiring to me right now.

Interesting. I'll take a closer look later, but one thing stuck out to me.

It shouldn't be possible to regain Geo Tokens as a Free action. This will lead to people spamming the ability an infinite amount of times in order to max out their tokens each round. I'd make the quickest possible time a Swift Action, so it can only be done once per round.

Pramxnim
2009-06-29, 11:37 AM
There's a specific line that says you may only regain geo tokens once per round per type of action. So you cannot spam free actions to regain them. This was already taken care of in the Iron Heroes rule set, so it shouldn't pose a problem here at all :smallbiggrin:
No silly Belt of Battle or Font of Inspiration abuse to gain extra actions to regain them either (though you COULD use those to unleash the geo tokens that you gained)

Salvonus
2009-06-29, 05:36 PM
Hm... I guess I do have a few ideas. I actually started on one, but I ended up ditching it due to overcomplexity. It required... oh, 14 or so different power lists. :smalltongue:

I probably won't take a crack at the other idea in my head, though. It's just far too obscure - very few PCs (or NPCs) would ever take it.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-29, 08:20 PM
I probably won't take a crack at the other idea in my head, though. It's just far too obscure - very few PCs (or NPCs) would ever take it.

So long as it's interesting, we'll love it. I can't think of many PCs ready and willing to take the Sibyl of the Blinded Eye class that I created last time...and that turned out rather better than I had expected. Obscure? Yes. Specific? Yes. Of use to perhaps .001% or less of PCs and NPCs out there? Yes.

Good for this contest? Quite possibly.

Salvonus
2009-06-29, 11:59 PM
Yeah, but this is something that literally nobody would take. :smalltongue:

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-30, 12:04 AM
Yeah, but this is something that literally nobody would take. :smalltongue:

Really? Now I'm intrigued. What is the idea, if I may be so bold?

Salvonus
2009-06-30, 12:15 AM
Well, both my concepts revolve around a semi-literal reading of the word "rebuild". :smalltongue:

The first one was an effort to create a true "Psiforged". Essentially, they'd acquire a Psicrystal and then promptly embed it into themselves. Their power list (and most of their class abilities) would depend on which Psicrystal type that they chose - essentially, they would amplify an aspect of their own personality. The main problem with this idea? There are about 14 different Psicrystal personalities, and any class with 14 different power lists is a bit overboard. :smalltongue:

The second idea is a good-aligned divine caster who is seeking redemption... For being Undead. Essentially, the character is "rebuilt" over the 10 levels into "true" life, restoring their soul and mortal body. I might alter it so that they become Deathless rather than actual living creatures, but the soul-restoration part is probably the main thing.

I can't think of any PC who would want to switch from Undeath to life, though. Besides, there's probably some sort of spell out there that renders the whole thing irrelevant. (Except, possibly, for the soul-redemption bit.)

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-30, 12:21 AM
Well, both my concepts revolve around a semi-literal reading of the word "rebuild". :smalltongue:

The first one was an effort to create a true "Psiforged". Essentially, they'd acquire a Psicrystal and then promptly embed it into themselves. Their power list (and most of their class abilities) would depend on which Psicrystal type that they chose - essentially, they would amplify an aspect of their own personality. The main problem with this idea? There are about 14 different Psicrystal personalities, and any class with 14 different power lists is a bit overboard. :smalltongue:

The second idea is a good-aligned divine caster who is seeking redemption... For being Undead. Essentially, the character is "rebuilt" over the 10 levels into "true" life, restoring their soul and mortal body. I might alter it so that they become Deathless rather than actual living creatures, but the soul-restoration part is probably the main thing.

I can't think of any PC who would want to switch from Undeath to life, though. Besides, there's probably some sort of spell out there that renders the whole thing irrelevant. (Except, possibly, for the soul-redemption bit.)

Well, the first idea isn't really as complicated as you think, I suspect. Why do so many powers have to be dependent on the psicrystal's personality? Wouldn't just one or two for flavor be sufficient, with the rest of the class more focused on actually manifesting psionic abilities? I also see no reason to keep the power list determined purely by crystal personality. Or, if you do, keep it simple. Grant each crystal access to a Psion discipline (or two, or three), so the combination are easy to make and recognize.

The other options is also amazing, in my mind. I've always loved the flavor of the Reforged class (a Warforged trying to become more human), and this is right in that vein of things.

This is just my opinion, but I'd love to see either of those classes. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: ErrantX...could you take a look at THIS CLASS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116741), and tell me if it fits the criteria (it grants new Bardic Music abilities). I just whipped it up and am rather fond of it, and have considered having it take the place of the Eerie Traveler for this contest...so I'd like to know. Is it a better fit to the contest?

Eloel
2009-06-30, 02:13 AM
Ugh, I realized I misunderstood the concept after I posted the class. I could probably tweak it to be in-concept (and it wouldn't be THAT hard), but I can't do that now. Would it be a problem if it stayed up for a day or two before it's completely done?