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Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-07, 06:52 PM
I'm thinking of starting a 4e campaign, and I have a pretty decent idea for it, but I'm not exactly sure how to implement everything.

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The basic premise is that all the PC's come from very different backgrounds, but have one thing in common. They, like countless others before them, have been whisked away from their home worlds, and are now forced to play in the mysterious and deadly competition known only as The Games.

The PC's would start at level 1, and early on, they are teleported to some sort of temple that is inescapable, even by epic level characters. Since they're new, they are introduced to the rules of The Games. The top of the temple has a number of portals that each lead to a different "level" and each of the levels is a self-contained demi-plane with its own unique set of rules. For instance, one Level might be a vast jungle, requiring the players to find several totems scattered about and bring them to the correct shrines. Another might be a large battlefield, where the players are forced to fight large-scale battles with other players, and only when one side's battle-standard is captured are they allowed to leave.

The Levels are overseen by a group of mysterious beings known only as The Masters. They appear to be humanoid in form, and come in all shapes and sizes, but all wear masks and all have near deific power. Because of The Masters, the gods, archfey, devils, and Far Realm entities cannot enter the planes in which The Games take place. They're like Sigil's Lady of Pain in terms of power, but unlike the Lady of Pain, there are certain places where their powers weaken. In these places, they are able to be injured or even killed. Prominent players can gain favor from The Masters by performing special tasks for them, since The Masters are all vying for power in a system only they seem to know. If a player curries enough favor with The Masters, they may even recieve the offer to become a Master themselves.

Most players don't know what kind of prize The Games have to offer. Some theorize that becoming a Master is the prize, while others think that the prize is freedom from The Games and their twisted rules. Most experienced Players will tell you that the only prize is survival, that the only way out is death. Players may form alliances and friendships, but ultimately, all of them are competition, and in the right circumstances, anyone can be an enemy.

Into this strange and terrifying world, the PC's are forced, and they must band together if they hope to survive and unravel the mysteries of The Games and their Masters.

Each Level of The Games presents different challenges. Some are dungeons, others are a series of skill challenges. Others are arenas where Players are forced to fight each other, but each one is overseen by The Masters, each Master in charge of several levels. The goal of the PC's is to beat the challenges of The Masters and try to figure out just what is going on.

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The campaign goes through the three tiers like so:

Heroic:

The PC's are teleported to what I'll call "The Hub" for now, a general living area for Players to rest and recuperate in between levels. Here they are greeted by one of The Masters and the rules of The Games are explained to them. Here they get a taste of the competitive nature of The Games, since several more experienced Players try to help them, hurt them or trick them. As they explore The Levels and fulfill the challenges they start to find clues that something bigger is going on. As the PC's advance in level, The Masters begin to notice them as rising stars...

Paragon:

At this point, The Masters contact the PC's and inform them that in recognition of their skill and prowess, they are going to trust them with special tasks. The PC's continue to explore The Levels, but every so often one of The Masters contacts them and asks them to do something for him or her. This usually involves spying on or sabatoging the plans of other Masters. The PC's become the wild cards of The Masters, the centerpiece of their shadow war. As the PC's carry out these tasks, they learn more about the personalities, strengths and weaknesses of the various Masters, as well as clues that just as The Masters control The Levels, something even more powerful controls The Games. Things come to a head when one of The Masters asks the PC's to assassinate another Master. After the PC's carry out their mission, luring The Master into a trap that weakens them, and then using the opportunity to slay him/her/it, The Masters' conflict boils into open warfare, with The Masters rallying Players loyal to them and press-ganging Players who were either unaware of the conflict or who refused to get involved in it. The Games are thrown into chaos, and just as the PCs think it's all over, they recieve a mysterious summons...

Epic:

The PCs are brought before the true ruler of The Games, known only as The Grand Master. The Grand Master commends the PCs for figuring out the clues he/she/it has left for them, while at the same time scolding them for allowing The Masters to fight openly. He/She/It informs the PC's that they are now agents of The Grand Master, and will work his/her/its will within The Games. The Grand Master goes on to tell the PC's that order cannot be brought back to The Games until all The Masters stop fighting, but not that the Masters are all fighting each other openly, the only hope for peace is to kill them all. The PC's use what they've learned about The Levels and The Masters to lure them into traps like they did at the end of the Paragon segment. They have to be more careful now, since The Masters do not trust them, and are on the lookout for such traps. The war swings different ways as each Master falls, until finally the last one is killed. The PC's are then immediately teleported before The Grand Master, who reveals that the PC's have been decieved. It was in fact The Grand Master who contacted them and asked them to kill the first Master, because The Grand Master feared the other Masters, his/her/its servants, were becoming too powerful and might actually dare to defy him/her/it. By killing The Masters, the PC's have secured The Grand Master's undisputed dominance over The Games and all in them. He/She/It then offers each PC a choice. They can accept the role of Master and become a part of The Games, with the understanding that The Grand Master's word is law. They can be set free from The Games, and allowed to roam the multiverse at their leisure. They can become a sort of trainer at "The Hub" and teach the next crop of Players the rules of The Games. If the PC's want, they can also attack The Grand Master and try to slay him/her/it for his/her/its betrayals. If they kill The Grand Master, the demiplanes that contained The Games collapse, and the PC's and any other Players that survived the conflict are jettisoned into the Astral Sea, The Games over forever.

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There are a number of issues I have before starting this project. First, I've never DMed a campaign successfully, and I have no idea how to plan an adventure.

Secondly, I'm not sure how to stat up powerful beings like The Masters and The Grand Master, or railroading devices like the magic that prevents powerful characters from just Plane Shifting out of the dimension where The Games are.

Finally, these ideas are basically all I have. Can they be improved upon? Where do I go from here? How many PC's should I allow? What should the overall atmosphere and theme of this campaign be?

Any and all advice on this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. :smallsmile:

lordhack
2009-04-07, 07:38 PM
Your idea seems a little bit rail roady, but overall pretty good. When gathering your players, you should tell them the basics, about the games, and that they'll end up their, unable to escape for most of the campaign. This makes sure everyone is on the same page about the game, and won't be upset when their rituals to head to other planes don't work.

Adventure planning is somewhat hard to tackle with a single post, but your early adventures should simply be "The Games" which could be anything from a standard dungeon crawl, to some sort of sport that takes advantage of the characters' various abilities. Give an idea for the first Game you want to throw at them, the type of plane it will be on and such, and it'll be much easier to shape an adventure around it.

Simply put, don't stat out your rail road devices. They simply stop the PCs from doing what you don't want them to do. As I said, this works much better if you tell them so up front, so they aren't constantly trying to escape. As for the masters, take a monster of the appropriate level from the Monster Manual, give it a template if it's a non-elite or you think it fits, and refluff its abilities.

Number of players should be whatever you're comfortable with, 4-5 works best for 4e. The game already has a nice theme to it, as for ideas, as far as the overacrhing plot, what you need are individual adventure ideas, and back up ideas. For example, what if they choose not to kill the first master? It's not something you can easily force them to do if they don't want to, and could bring your meta-plot to a halt.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-07, 08:54 PM
Your idea seems a little bit rail roady, but overall pretty good. When gathering your players, you should tell them the basics, about the games, and that they'll end up their, unable to escape for most of the campaign. This makes sure everyone is on the same page about the game, and won't be upset when their rituals to head to other planes don't work.
That makes sense. I got another reccomendation that if players do get access to plane-travelling power, instead of saying it simply doesn't work, have it transport them to another game demiplane. Say they use that ritual that opens a portal to the Feywild, instead of travelling to the Feywild proper, the arrive on a level made to be like the Feywild. It could be a valuable resource to traverse The Levels without detection.

Adventure planning is somewhat hard to tackle with a single post, but your early adventures should simply be "The Games" which could be anything from a standard dungeon crawl, to some sort of sport that takes advantage of the characters' various abilities. Give an idea for the first Game you want to throw at them, the type of plane it will be on and such, and it'll be much easier to shape an adventure around it.
That was my plan.

Simply put, don't stat out your rail road devices. They simply stop the PCs from doing what you don't want them to do. As I said, this works much better if you tell them so up front, so they aren't constantly trying to escape. As for the masters, take a monster of the appropriate level from the Monster Manual, give it a template if it's a non-elite or you think it fits, and refluff its abilities.
I think that's a good idea. Being up front about what the PC's can and cannot do will smooth out difficulties

Number of players should be whatever you're comfortable with, 4-5 works best for 4e. The game already has a nice theme to it, as for ideas, as far as the overacrhing plot, what you need are individual adventure ideas, and back up ideas. For example, what if they choose not to kill the first master? It's not something you can easily force them to do if they don't want to, and could bring your meta-plot to a halt.
That's going to be an issue, I think. What IF they refuse to do the bidding of The Masters, or of The Grand Master? As I've currently set it up, the only penalty is that you don't get the boon from The Master that proposed the task to them. Sort of a "If you don't like it then you're free to say no. I'll just ask someone else to do it."

AgentPaper
2009-04-07, 09:13 PM
That's going to be an issue, I think. What IF they refuse to do the bidding of The Masters, or of The Grand Master? As I've currently set it up, the only penalty is that you don't get the boon from The Master that proposed the task to them. Sort of a "If you don't like it then you're free to say no. I'll just ask someone else to do it."

"So, will you do this for me? I care not if you refuse, I will simply find another."

"We won't do it, you fiend!"

"Oh my, it seems you do not want my favor..."

Next day, they are thrown into a horribly stacked game. Player deaths not a bad idea, though the Master would interfere before a TPK. (By stopping time and re-offering) If players didn't die, NPCs they know and like, or at least their characters like, dies.

"Well, it seems you haven't fared very well without my favor, have you? Hmm? We masters have complete control over this realm..including mastery over life...and death. Perhaps you'd like to reconsider?"

If the players refuse here, the master attacks, is weakened suddenly for some reason, (the grand master did it) and the players kill him as an epic boss battle. "What is this? What happened?! My power...gone!...NO MATTER! I WILL KILL YOU FOOLS REGARDLESS!"

KillianHawkeye
2009-04-07, 09:18 PM
I would say that if the PCs refuse the first assassination mission, have one of the other "players" complete it a few days later. Since I am assuming that you'll have to create a bunch of NPC personalities for the players to interact with up to this point, have it be one that they've known the longest. A friendly (or unfriendly) rival in The Games.

After this, the rival becomes the Grand Master's pawn instead of the PCs, except the first mission he gets is to attack the PCs for their refusal to do the assassination job. (The rival probably wouldn't be told that that was the reason, though.) And when the PCs defeat him, they get approached by the Grand Master to replace him, Sith apprentice style. By then, the chaos caused by the Masters' open warfare has become evident enough that the PCs may agree to help the Grand Master put a stop to it.

Or if not, have EVERY SINGLE OTHER Master try to recruit them at some point (since they are pretty powerful players by then). Eventually they will have to join up with someone, especially since the actual Games will probably grind to a halt. Then you can either let them help their ally take out the other Masters, or have the Grand Master try one more time to recruit them as his subordinates (but this time, they'd use their new position of trust with their Master ally to manipulate things according to the Grand Master's designs).

Simply put, there's a way to work it to run no matter which master they end up allying themselves with, and possibly even if they refuse them all or even try to rally the other "players" in an uprising against the Masters. In any case, more Masters will start dying one by one until only the Grand Master remains. Their confontation with him will be determined by how this part of the campaign plays out, as he could be a secret threat, an obvious antagonist, or a manipulative ally.

This sounds like a really interesting adventure, so please let us all know how everything goes!

lordhack
2009-04-07, 09:19 PM
Sense you're going to have multiple planes any way, letting them use their interplanar magic to get to "lesser" versions of the planes that are within The Game seems like a great idea.

As for your problems with the PCs saying no, there are a couple of things. Agent Paper's ideas are all pretty solid, but that's really where your on the fly DM skills can shine. If they try to warn The Master they were supposed to kill, he can send them to kill the first one in revenge. If they refuse to kill any of The Masters, one might go mad, and start attacking other players of The Games. The PCs, being well known, come to the rescue. If that seems to cliche, maybe another team kills a Master and The Grand Master recruits them as he would in the original plot.

Kylarra
2009-04-07, 09:26 PM
@Agent Paper- Having the Master stop an obvious TPK and such is just entirely too railroading for my tastes. Subtlety is the key.

I'd recommend something along the lines of: If they refuse a Master, they don't get the boon sure, but they'll encounter some other party who did get the boon.

Write out some cause-effect tables for your Masters. If the party helps <x>, then certain things will happen, otherwise they don't.

Eventually, they'll reach the point where remaining "neutral" is too dangerous due to the lack of support (most other parties they encounter will have the support of one master or another), much like true gladiatorial contests. At that point, they'll pick a master to support or start playing all the sides against each other, or possibly earn that TPK.

If they refuse to help the grandmaster, then just play it out like above. Kick them back into the games. They'll eventually have to kill the masters for their own survival or try to coerce one to conspire against the GM (pun intended), could be an interesting alternative ending storyline there too, depending on how attached they get to a certain master or another.

AgentPaper
2009-04-07, 09:40 PM
Well, it's not supposed to be an obvious TPK, it should just be a rather difficult battle, significantly harder than many before, which will kill some of them if the players aren't smart. If the dice go badly, worst case scenario is they die, though, and since the master is trying to pressure them into helping him, of course he's going to intervene.

One of your themes is that the masters are powerful and in control of everything. For them to do that, that means they aren't going to let some puny slaves back-talk them. They'll pretend to not care, and that they could care less. (They're all powerful, so what do they care?) However, they aren't ALL-powerful, and they know that. Having someone refuse them isn't something they will take to kindly, and if they don't back that up, then they aren't doing very good jobs as villains.

In a normal campaign, that would probably be counted as railroading, sure, but one of the major themes this campaign has, by necessity, is that the players have no control of their fate. The masters are the embodiment of that, and having them "rail-road" the characters is an assumed trait your players will expect of them. You seem to be telling the players about this general theme in the first place (with the whole "You can't escape period" thing) so it shouldn't be a big problem for them, as long as you don't just go and TELL them they accept. You'll notice that the players always have the choice to refuse...and die. (enforcing the "the only way out is death" theme)

Kylarra
2009-04-07, 09:47 PM
I still don't feel that that master should come in and save them. If you must use a railroad of that caliber, it should probably be another master that intervenes on the hopes of utilizing them. Emphasize the whole political rivalry thing, you've got players with a reason to strike back at the previous master now, plus the possible gratitude of being saved, perfect tools to use.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-07, 09:53 PM
Quick question: why are the PCs adventuring together if the Games are so competitive? Is everyone assigned a team when they get there, or do you "register" them? Are there penalties for teaming? And do "players" work to undermine each other in the Hub (and what is to prevent assassination of your competitors?).

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-07, 10:31 PM
Quick question: why are the PCs adventuring together if the Games are so competitive? Is everyone assigned a team when they get there, or do you "register" them? Are there penalties for teaming? And do "players" work to undermine each other in the Hub (and what is to prevent assassination of your competitors?).

I think the idea would be banding together for survival. One of the older players might tell them that banding together is essential when you're new, and that some of the challenges can get VERY nasty if you're on your own. I don't think there are any penalties for teaming aside from having to split whatever is found in the Levels (standard loot sharing.) I'd assume that players will try to mislead other players in the Hub, but outright violence is banned. Should someone try something as underhanded as attacking another player in the Hub, the Masters themselves have been known to appear and kill the offender. In the Levels though, PvP is totally tolerated, and in some places even encouraged by some particularly vicious Masters.

Should there be more incentive for banding together?

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-07, 10:56 PM
I think the idea would be banding together for survival. One of the older players might tell them that banding together is essential when you're new, and that some of the challenges can get VERY nasty if you're on your own. I don't think there are any penalties for teaming aside from having to split whatever is found in the Levels (standard loot sharing.) I'd assume that players will try to mislead other players in the Hub, but outright violence is banned. Should someone try something as underhanded as attacking another player in the Hub, the Masters themselves have been known to appear and kill the offender. In the Levels though, PvP is totally tolerated, and in some places even encouraged by some particularly vicious Masters.

Should there be more incentive for banding together?

Sounds pretty solid. How do the Masters monitor the Hub? Can it be circumvented? Has it ever been circumvented?

And what about commerce? Are the necessities (food, shelter, clothing, sanitation) supplied by the Masters for free, or must it be won? How is it provided?

IMHO, I'd make the First Task be a standardized weeding-out mission, which has a Meal Token (or perhaps Player Badge) as the reward; the badge is needed to gain those above necessities. Yeah, it's railroad-y but it also makes a lot of sense from the Master's point of view - uppity newbies starve to death.

Commerce is very important for a closed society like the Hub, since even if there is no formal economy, people will begin an informal economy where goods (spare loot, old weapons and armor) and services (smithing, ritual casting, prostitution) are available. It may be on the Gold Standard, or it may be completely barter-based. In any case, this will quickly become very important to your PCs.

As for teaming up, I think a "gentle word of advice" from the Master (or even The Master of Petitioners - someone in charge of orienting newcomers and providing basic services) will be enough. In general, players are pretty tolerant about being bound together - but there should still be a reason.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-07, 11:27 PM
Sounds pretty solid. How do the Masters monitor the Hub? Can it be circumvented? Has it ever been circumvented?
As I said, the Masters have Lady of Pain level power except in specific areas or under specific circumstances. They'd immediately know if there was a disturbance in the Hub, and would either have their agents break it up, or make a personal appearance to stop it. When a Master appears, everyone stops what they're doing and pays attention. It would be interesting to see if perhaps the Hub's security had been beaten. A clue like that might help the PC's understand that as powerful as the Masters are, they're not all-powerful.

And what about commerce? Are the necessities (food, shelter, clothing, sanitation) supplied by the Masters for free, or must it be won? How is it provided?

IMHO, I'd make the First Task be a standardized weeding-out mission, which has a Meal Token (or perhaps Player Badge) as the reward; the badge is needed to gain those above necessities. Yeah, it's railroad-y but it also makes a lot of sense from the Master's point of view - uppity newbies starve to death.

Commerce is very important for a closed society like the Hub, since even if there is no formal economy, people will begin an informal economy where goods (spare loot, old weapons and armor) and services (smithing, ritual casting, prostitution) are available. It may be on the Gold Standard, or it may be completely barter-based. In any case, this will quickly become very important to your PCs.
These are VERY good ideas. That's exactly what I had in mind. Some players "retired" after becoming powerful enough that the newbies don't mess with them, and set themselves up as merchants in the Hub, taking loot and salvage that younger players dredge up from the Levels, and selling them to other players.

I especially like the idea that they have to participate at least once or twice to be allowed basic amenities in the Hub. I'll probably throw in a horror story about a new player who refused to take part for moral reasons, and he starved to death since the Masters were unsympathetic to his plight. It'd help explain the hopelessness the more experienced players feel and just how amoral and cruel the Masters can be.

The catch is that The Masters only provide the most basic of necessities. They give the characters meals, they provide modest rooms for them with the basic necessities. Like a cheap, but clean hotel room. The rest of the services comes from what enterprising players have set up for themselves. If you need something, one of these "merchants" can usually provide it for the right price. Some of The Masters look down on this, believing the players to be their prisoners, and they should only make do with what the Masters give them. That this economy promotes disorder in what should be the most controlled part of The Games' environment. The only reason they don't step in is because the other Masters disagree. They believe it builds communal spirit, makes things more interesting or simply that it's not worth their time to remove. The Hub sometimes feels more like an overcrowded city than some sort of temple, with the halls feeling more like city streets.

As for teaming up, I think a "gentle word of advice" from the Master (or even The Master of Petitioners - someone in charge of orienting newcomers and providing basic services) will be enough. In general, players are pretty tolerant about being bound together - but there should still be a reason.
Another good idea. I think that this Master of Petitioners, however, should be one of those "retired" players, rather than an actual master. I like the idea of them being called "petitioners" too.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-07, 11:40 PM
Another good idea. I think that this Master of Petitioners, however, should be one of those "retired" players, rather than an actual master. I like the idea of them being called "petitioners" too.

How about making a rank for such mortals - let's call it Favored. So one of the more beneficent Masters (or perhaps a more Lawful one) had taken a particular shine to one of these Retired Players and perhaps invested him with some limited powers to aid him in his duty of orienting Petitioners.

It'll be an intermediary rank between Players and Masters; these enhanced mortals are often the first point of contact for Players seeking to curry the favor of the Masters. Makes the Masters more remote (and more mysterious!) while providing a stable class of important NPCs that the PCs can get to know.

Why, at Paragon there Favored can serve as Champions for Masters who become opposed to the PCs - tasked with causing the PCs downfall without getting the Master's hands dirty.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-07, 11:42 PM
Again, a great idea, Oracle Hunter! You're awesome!

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-07, 11:57 PM
Again, a great idea, Oracle Hunter! You're awesome!

Oh, I loves me some world-building :smallbiggrin:

You still haven't nailed down the issue of currency.
Presuming the Masters don't issue currency themselves (possible - a special reward that can be converted into gifts from the Masters themselves?) a strict barter-system would make the most sense. However, it can be very awkward to run - a Gold Standard is so much easier.

Hmm... I think you have to go with a Token system. Have the Grand Master make the Masters play a game in which Tokens play a large role. To this end, the Grand Master secrets Tokens in the various levels and forbids the Masters from gathering them directly. This now provides some impetus for the Master's Game in the first place, and makes the Masters particularly interested in good Token collectors (e.g. good players).

The Masters should have "temples" in the Hub where their Favored hang out and can try to recruit promising types. Different Masters favor different styles of recruitment - often based on whomever their strongest Favored is. At these "temples" Tokens can be given in exchange for Gifts or Boons from the Masters - special gear or some temporary power. Since Tokens are intrinsically valuable, they are a good medium of exchange for more mundane services.

As an extra feature, make the actual Master's Currency something that can only be made by combining a large number of Tokens together at a time in special circumstances - I'll call it a Master Gem. This allows small numbers of Tokens to be used as currency (rather than being immediately converted into Gifts) since Masters require a certain number of Tokens before they're actually useful to them.

So yeah, more ideas.

New Question: what are the laws of the Hub? Killing is out, but what about lesser violence? Theft? Deception? And do all violations carry a standard penalty, or is there a "court" one can try to sway?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-08, 12:16 AM
Oh, I loves me some world-building :smallbiggrin:

You still haven't nailed down the issue of currency.
Presuming the Masters don't issue currency themselves (possible - a special reward that can be converted into gifts from the Masters themselves?) a strict barter-system would make the most sense. However, it can be very awkward to run - a Gold Standard is so much easier.

Hmm... I think you have to go with a Token system. Have the Grand Master make the Masters play a game in which Tokens play a large role. To this end, the Grand Master secrets Tokens in the various levels and forbids the Masters from gathering them directly. This now provides some impetus for the Master's Game in the first place, and makes the Masters particularly interested in good Token collectors (e.g. good players).

The Masters should have "temples" in the Hub where their Favored hang out and can try to recruit promising types. Different Masters favor different styles of recruitment - often based on whomever their strongest Favored is. At these "temples" Tokens can be given in exchange for Gifts or Boons from the Masters - special gear or some temporary power. Since Tokens are intrinsically valuable, they are a good medium of exchange for more mundane services.

As an extra feature, make the actual Master's Currency something that can only be made by combining a large number of Tokens together at a time in special circumstances - I'll call it a Master Gem. This allows small numbers of Tokens to be used as currency (rather than being immediately converted into Gifts) since Masters require a certain number of Tokens before they're actually useful to them.

So yeah, more ideas.

New Question: what are the laws of the Hub? Killing is out, but what about lesser violence? Theft? Deception? And do all violations carry a standard penalty, or is there a "court" one can try to sway?

I like the token idea, but would tokens = gold? For example, would a longsword cost 15 tokens, or would the token system have different values for items?

I think most of the basic laws people have apply in the Hub. Things like theft, fighting, rape, etc are outlawed. In the Hub, the Masters are like Big Brother. They see when you commit crimes. I was thinking maybe an equality system of punishment would be what the Masters use. You steal something precious from someone, then The Masters force you to give the offended party something you value just as much. You injure someone, then the Masters give you a matching injury, etc. The Masters enforce these laws very strictly, but that doesn't meant they don't happen. Even the Masters can't be everywhere at once, and if by some lucky chance The Masters are all occupied when a crime occurs, then it goes unnoticed. I don't know if prostitution should be considered against the rules too, since it IS the world's oldest profession. The Masters certainly have no issue with Players having sex with each other for free, but should they have a problem with it happening for money? If they did, then they'd at least make sure that the ladies in question are well-treated. A pimp slaps his girl, the Masters slap him back.

What do you think? Fair or inflexible?

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-08, 12:59 AM
I like the token idea, but would tokens = gold? For example, would a longsword cost 15 tokens, or would the token system have different values for items

It'd be the easiest way to do it. Actually make Tokens = Copper, so that all PHB prices work out. Yeah, that's a lot of Tokens, but maybe you have someone act as a "Bank" who produces currency equal to large amount of Tokens - good for mortal trading, useless for Masters.


I think most of the basic laws people have apply in the Hub. Things like theft, fighting, rape, etc are outlawed. In the Hub, the Masters are like Big Brother. They see when you commit crimes. I was thinking maybe an equality system of punishment would be what the Masters use. You steal something precious from someone, then The Masters force you to give the offended party something you value just as much. You injure someone, then the Masters give you a matching injury, etc. The Masters enforce these laws very strictly, but that doesn't meant they don't happen. Even the Masters can't be everywhere at once, and if by some lucky chance The Masters are all occupied when a crime occurs, then it goes unnoticed. I don't know if prostitution should be considered against the rules too, since it IS the world's oldest profession. The Masters certainly have no issue with Players having sex with each other for free, but should they have a problem with it happening for money? If they did, then they'd at least make sure that the ladies in question are well-treated. A pimp slaps his girl, the Masters slap him back.

OK, but boil it down to this - Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth. Much more imposing :smallamused:

BTW, Prostitution would not be illegal - doesn't fall under The Rule - though abuse and so forth would be punished.

I'd make local legends about The Man Who Cheated The Masters - someone who was able to avoid the Masters' monitors. Obviously the Masters discourage this legend - and most of the stories are made up - but it may provide some real hints about how you could get away with crimes in The Hub.

OK, next concern: Ritual Components. Can you gather them yourself, or must you get Residuum directly from the Masters?

That'll be it for me tonight. Post up more questions and a "revised" description of The Hub & Society sometime so that we can keep track of the new features of the World :smallsmile:

lordhack
2009-04-08, 02:18 AM
Another thing to think about, is what do the Gods think of this? This could be a non issue, but if you have a Cleric or Avenger or other divine character in the party, they may well petition their God for help, especially at higher levels. Can they influence The Games directly at all? If not, why? And why do divine characters retain their powers if they're cut off from their gods? You could say that divine power is cut off entirely, but one of The Masters with a similar outlook to that diety provides the power instead. Or, the gods might just not care, depends on how you run gods in general.

KillianHawkeye
2009-04-08, 10:44 AM
Wow, there's been some great ideas here while I was at work! I particularly like the Player Badge, the Master of Petitioners guy, the Masters' Favored, and the token/barter economy. But I think each token should be worth around 5 gp or so, and round all the prices up to the nearest token. Yes, this would mean that a lot of cheap stuff will cost more, but I think it kinda makes sense that there'd be some inflation in an environment like this. It also dramatically cuts down on the need to carry around hundreds of tokens.

As for the Game missions, are they strictly voluntary? If the players don't want to go to the Game Level, can they sit out? Or do they get forced somehow? Is the only penalty for refusal the lack of victory prizes?

And what sort of Agents do the Masters have? It seems like the Masters shouldn't be walking around all the time enforcing all their rules themselves when they could have minions who do it for them.

An idea I had at work was similar to the idea of the Favored, a group of reliable "players" who worked as enforcers keeping order in the hub, but who are treated normally as players and are fair game on the Game Levels. This setup has a few benefits: First, these enforcers are chosen for their skills and because they all are interested in keeping up the status quo. They are all in favor of keeping The Games going as they are, because they like it and have gotten into a favorable position. Second, if the policing is done by other "players" the system becomes self-correcting, which is much easier on the Masters but also imperfect and gives the PCs a chance to get away with something if they need to. This will allow you to lower the crazy-high power level of the Masters a little (they're OVER 9000!!!), which means it takes less deus ex machina to start killing them. But the REAL benefit for the Masters is that it draws attention and dislike away from the Masters and onto the enforcers (reducing the probability of an outright uprising). It also allows the Masters to retain their air of power and mystery for most of the heroic tier.

And then you can always allow some of the PCs to become enforcers if they do well and ally with a sympathetic Master. :smallwink:

I really like this adventure concept, Zousha! Do you mind if I use it for my next D&D campaign? :smallbiggrin:

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-08, 11:04 AM
An idea I had at work was similar to the idea of the Favored, a group of reliable "players" who worked as enforcers keeping order in the hub, but who are treated normally as players and are fair game on the Game Levels. This setup has a few benefits: First, these enforcers are chosen for their skills and because they all are interested in keeping up the status quo. They are all in favor of keeping The Games going as they are, because they like it and have gotten into a favorable position. Second, if the policing is done by other "players" the system becomes self-correcting, which is much easier on the Masters but also imperfect and gives the PCs a chance to get away with something if they need to. This will allow you to lower the crazy-high power level of the Masters a little (they're OVER 9000!!!), which means it takes less deus ex machina to start killing them. But the REAL benefit for the Masters is that it draws attention and dislike away from the Masters and onto the enforcers (reducing the probability of an outright uprising). It also allows the Masters to retain their air of power and mystery for most of the heroic tier.

But, the Masters are supposed to be disliked (and no care about being liked). And "Big Brother"-type perfect security is much scarier than Masters you never see. And the Masters are not at all concerned about uprisings - they can just cut off food, and kill the main agitators.

You could have certain informal "judges" for dealing with non-violent disagreements. They could resolve disputes which nobody dares to escalate to violence (in the Hub) while also allowing for more complex "contracts" between mortals. I'd say these guys aren't attached to Masters - they're just the "old men" of the community, with reputations for impartiality.

KillianHawkeye
2009-04-08, 11:26 AM
But, the Masters are supposed to be disliked (and no care about being liked). And "Big Brother"-type perfect security is much scarier than Masters you never see. And the Masters are not at all concerned about uprisings - they can just cut off food, and kill the main agitators.

Hmm... well you have a point. Having nearly-omnipotent guys just appear to spank rules-breakers is scarier. I just thought maybe they would show up too often if they did everything themselves like that, and thus they became less sinister in my mind. IMO the Masters should be incomprehensible and uncaring, at least at first. And they can still be "Big Brothery" without sending the omnipotent guys to punish the criminals. I guess I just had a different idea for how things might work. It could just be my desire to have the Masters weakened, since having a whole pack of guys with "Lady of Pain-like powers" seems ludicrous to me.

And while I agree that the Masters wouldn't care if they're liked or disliked, they still would have reasons to make certain an uprising doesn't occur. They clearly want to maintain control over their prisoners, but the more flashy magic and unstoppable force they use, the more likely a resistance movement will form (even if it's ultimately futile). They'd do better to paint themselves as administrators or officiators rather than jailers and villains, and pit the players against each other instead. This is especially true considering that there are things scattered about that can either kill them or at least make them vulnerable. Also, unrest could have an impact on the Masters' internal political struggles, or whatever purpose is being fulfilled by The Games. If the players are rebelling, then they won't be playing. Maybe the Master's just don't want to be forced to kill them all and start over?


You could have certain informal "judges" for dealing with non-violent disagreements. They could resolve disputes which nobody dares to escalate to violence (in the Hub) while also allowing for more complex "contracts" between mortals. I'd say these guys aren't attached to Masters - they're just the "old men" of the community, with reputations for impartiality.

OTOH, the enforcers could be a self-appointed group within the Hub. They'd still behave the same way, but without the Master-given authority they'd become more of a wild card. It's interesting that there could be other such factions among the players as well. Kinda like gangs. Some could be neutral, while others could be more helpful or serve as minor rivals or antagonists.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-08, 12:09 PM
OTOH, the enforcers could be a self-appointed group within the Hub. They'd still behave the same way, but without the Master-given authority they'd become more of a wild card. It's interesting that there could be other such factions among the players as well. Kinda like gangs. Some could be neutral, while others could be more helpful or serve as minor rivals or antagonists.

The one problem is that, if The Rule is used, any violence in the Hub results in pain/death - the Enforcers included.

I'm not so sure about unstoppable force = more uprisings either. If the force is truly unstoppable but otherwise passive, there is little reason to rebel & die. Remember that while the Masters demand adventuring, they don't interfere in the personal lives of people while in The Hub - so long as nobody gets hurt.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-08, 12:28 PM
It'd be the easiest way to do it. Actually make Tokens = Copper, so that all PHB prices work out. Yeah, that's a lot of Tokens, but maybe you have someone act as a "Bank" who produces currency equal to large amount of Tokens - good for mortal trading, useless for Masters.
That's a good idea. One or maybe several of The Favored operate banks in the Hub for the Masters. The tokens are traded for money. For some reason, The Masters seem to have an unlimited supply of mortal currency, and any tokens are taken by them at the end of the day. Not sure how they should decide which tokens go to whom though. Perhaps the tokens are minted with a symbol unique to a Master, and the Master only recieves tokens with his symbol on them? Or should there multiple banks, for each Master, and the more popular Masters get more tokens since more Petitioners use their banks?

OK, but boil it down to this - Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth. Much more imposing :smallamused:
...Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to say. :smallredface:

BTW, Prostitution would not be illegal - doesn't fall under The Rule - though abuse and so forth would be punished.
I can think of a few players who might take advantage of that. :smallsigh:

I'd make local legends about The Man Who Cheated The Masters - someone who was able to avoid the Masters' monitors. Obviously the Masters discourage this legend - and most of the stories are made up - but it may provide some real hints about how you could get away with crimes in The Hub.
Again, a great idea. I plan on having the various urban legends of the Hub be a major source of clues as to how The Games work. These will start off as legends, but will later be supported with evidence found while exploring the levels, until finally the Masters and later The Grand Master confirm them.

OK, next concern: Ritual Components. Can you gather them yourself, or must you get Residuum directly from the Masters?
Many ritual components can be gathered out in the Levels or bought in the Hub, and petitioners can make their own residuum by disenchanting magic items they find or buy.

That'll be it for me tonight. Post up more questions and a "revised" description of The Hub & Society sometime so that we can keep track of the new features of the World :smallsmile:
I will as soon as I have time. It's a busy day today!

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-08, 12:33 PM
Another thing to think about, is what do the Gods think of this? This could be a non issue, but if you have a Cleric or Avenger or other divine character in the party, they may well petition their God for help, especially at higher levels. Can they influence The Games directly at all? If not, why? And why do divine characters retain their powers if they're cut off from their gods? You could say that divine power is cut off entirely, but one of The Masters with a similar outlook to that diety provides the power instead. Or, the gods might just not care, depends on how you run gods in general.

I think many of the Gods, especially the good aligned ones, think the Games are barbaric and would like to bring them down. To this end, they've managed to send some of their agents in as petitioners. But they find it's a very limited connection. The gods are able to provide power and speak to their followers, but they can't actually enter the Games themselves. The Masters are aware that some players draw power from the Gods, and they allow this, but the only way the Gods can influence the games is through proxies, like the Masters.

Other gods, especially ones who like violence or competition, don't mind the Games, and sometimes send their agents in just to compete.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-08, 12:45 PM
Wow, there's been some great ideas here while I was at work! I particularly like the Player Badge, the Master of Petitioners guy, the Masters' Favored, and the token/barter economy. But I think each token should be worth around 5 gp or so, and round all the prices up to the nearest token. Yes, this would mean that a lot of cheap stuff will cost more, but I think it kinda makes sense that there'd be some inflation in an environment like this. It also dramatically cuts down on the need to carry around hundreds of tokens.
I think that might work too. The idea is that the tokens go to the Masters though, so the Favored making the exchange have to profit somehow. How?

As for the Game missions, are they strictly voluntary? If the players don't want to go to the Game Level, can they sit out? Or do they get forced somehow? Is the only penalty for refusal the lack of victory prizes?
All levels are voluntary. You can travel to the levels via special portals in the Hub whenever you want, but you have to complete the challenge of the level in order to return to the Hub. The only penalty for refusal is that you don't get tokens or badges to trade in the Hub, and you're not gaining any levels while sitting there.

And what sort of Agents do the Masters have? It seems like the Masters shouldn't be walking around all the time enforcing all their rules themselves when they could have minions who do it for them.
Most of the agents of the Masters are their Favored or players that the Masters or their Favored have recruited, usually for some sort of boon or the promise of extra tokens. The Masters enforce all their rules themselves because they are virtually gods in The Games, and those who defy them are punished severely to make an example to other uppity players. Also, the Masters believe that they are the only ones smart enough or wise enough to judge these conflicts. Mortals can make mistakes, or be bribed, and they can't be everywhere at once.

An idea I had at work was similar to the idea of the Favored, a group of reliable "players" who worked as enforcers keeping order in the hub, but who are treated normally as players and are fair game on the Game Levels. This setup has a few benefits: First, these enforcers are chosen for their skills and because they all are interested in keeping up the status quo. They are all in favor of keeping The Games going as they are, because they like it and have gotten into a favorable position. Second, if the policing is done by other "players" the system becomes self-correcting, which is much easier on the Masters but also imperfect and gives the PCs a chance to get away with something if they need to. This will allow you to lower the crazy-high power level of the Masters a little (they're OVER 9000!!!), which means it takes less deus ex machina to start killing them. But the REAL benefit for the Masters is that it draws attention and dislike away from the Masters and onto the enforcers (reducing the probability of an outright uprising). It also allows the Masters to retain their air of power and mystery for most of the heroic tier.
While the idea is interesting, I think it takes some of the fangs away from the Masters. The idea is that they're powerful beings maintaining this artificial society like a garden. When crimes happen, it's like weeding for them. They aren't judging crimes or being cruel. They're removing undesirable elements from their "garden." The idea that it takes deus ex machina to kill the Masters is a bit off. The PC's have to engineer the circumstances that weaken the Master's powers. It's not random chance.

On the other hand, out in the Levels the Masters are a lot more distant. That's when the enforcers come into play. The Masters use these sorts of people to make sure the rules of their level are being obeyed, and to kill any who try to cheat. A Master can't just teleport in like they do in the Hub, since their attention is focused on multiple levels at once, and they take a lot more power to maintain.

And then you can always allow some of the PCs to become enforcers if they do well and ally with a sympathetic Master. :smallwink:
That's part of the plan. Several of the tasks the PCs will recieve during the paragon levels will be little more than acting as the Master's ears, eyes and arms in one of the Master's levels, terminating cheaters.

I really like this adventure concept, Zousha! Do you mind if I use it for my next D&D campaign? :smallbiggrin:
Oh, I don't mind at all! Go for it! :smallcool:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-08, 12:49 PM
But, the Masters are supposed to be disliked (and no care about being liked). And "Big Brother"-type perfect security is much scarier than Masters you never see. And the Masters are not at all concerned about uprisings - they can just cut off food, and kill the main agitators.
Exactly. That could be another legend of the Hub. The last time some idealist tried to lead a rebellion, that person was smote by the Masters and the rest of the rebels were denied food until they recanted for their actions. The idea is that The Games cannot be beaten by trying to break the rules. You have to play by the rules to win.

You could have certain informal "judges" for dealing with non-violent disagreements. They could resolve disputes which nobody dares to escalate to violence (in the Hub) while also allowing for more complex "contracts" between mortals. I'd say these guys aren't attached to Masters - they're just the "old men" of the community, with reputations for impartiality.
This is exactly what I was thinking. However, some of them aren't exactly impartial. Many a naive player has been swindled by other more experienced players who didn't take anything, but tricked them into a bad contract.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-08, 12:54 PM
That's a good idea. One or maybe several of The Favored operate banks in the Hub for the Masters. The tokens are traded for money. For some reason, The Masters seem to have an unlimited supply of mortal currency, and any tokens are taken by them at the end of the day. Not sure how they should decide which tokens go to whom though. Perhaps the tokens are minted with a symbol unique to a Master, and the Master only recieves tokens with his symbol on them? Or should there multiple banks, for each Master, and the more popular Masters get more tokens since more Petitioners use their banks?

No... what I'm thinking is the "banks" just exist as secure places to stock Tokens. The Tokens should be unmarked - part of the Master's Game is that they need many Tokens, but the only entity that makes Tokens is the Grand Master - and he hides them in Levels and forbids the Masters from collecting them directly.

The Bank's only function is to allow the economy to function without people carting around wheelbarrows of Tokens to buy a Longsword. The Bank issues coins for Tokens - and gives out Tokens for coins. Presumably the Bank takes a service fee for converting Tokens to coins (but not coins to Tokens) in order for the Bank Owner to survive off this trade. The Bank should also have a mint that can turn precious metals into engraved coins.

The Masters may give out "Master Coins" as treasure, but those coins are worthless in terms of trade - in such a closed economy, gold is hardly as precious as a Magic Sword. You can convert Master Coins into Bank Coins, but at a steep discount - like 10% of value - since the Bank Owner does need more precious metals to keep making Bank Coins. This also turns the "traditional treasure" of GP into a farce, the dark joke of a Master.

N.B. even with infinite gold, the Bank Owner could not just "print money" (mint more coins than he has Tokens)... for long. The reason Bank Coins are valuable is because they can be redeemed (at a 1-for-1 ratio) for Tokens, which can be used to buy Boons and Gifts from the Masters directly - rather than adventuring. A "bank run" (everyone turning in their Bank Coins for Tokens) would turn the Bank insolvent if there are more Bank Coins in circulation than the Banker has Tokens in reserve... which likely counts as Fraud in the eyes of the Masters.

As a rule of thumb, you should never be able to get more Bank Coins out than you give Tokens. The "Master Coin" conversion is paid out by the Bank Owner's personal capital - which is why it is irregular and a "bad deal" for the sellers. But the Bank Owner is the only person who accepts gold as valuable, so whatever deal you get is the best deal in town :smallamused:

EDIT:

I think that might work too. The idea is that the tokens go to the Masters though, so the Favored making the exchange have to profit somehow. How?

The Favored can also pay the Masters for Boons (special powers) and Gifts (magical items) - but they probably get a better exchange rate than the rabble. Ideally the Masters need to spend Tokens to maintain their own power level, so they charge more Tokens for these gifts than it costs to grant them.

Another thought for the Favored is that, once it is granted to you, you need to deliver a certain number of Tokens per week to you Master to maintain your status. Fail and... well, bad things happen. This can also lead to bloodthirsty Favored jumping n00bs in the Levels to gank their Tokens. :smalltongue:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-08, 12:58 PM
Hmm... well you have a point. Having nearly-omnipotent guys just appear to spank rules-breakers is scarier. I just thought maybe they would show up too often if they did everything themselves like that, and thus they became less sinister in my mind. IMO the Masters should be incomprehensible and uncaring, at least at first. And they can still be "Big Brothery" without sending the omnipotent guys to punish the criminals. I guess I just had a different idea for how things might work. It could just be my desire to have the Masters weakened, since having a whole pack of guys with "Lady of Pain-like powers" seems ludicrous to me.

And while I agree that the Masters wouldn't care if they're liked or disliked, they still would have reasons to make certain an uprising doesn't occur. They clearly want to maintain control over their prisoners, but the more flashy magic and unstoppable force they use, the more likely a resistance movement will form (even if it's ultimately futile). They'd do better to paint themselves as administrators or officiators rather than jailers and villains, and pit the players against each other instead. This is especially true considering that there are things scattered about that can either kill them or at least make them vulnerable. Also, unrest could have an impact on the Masters' internal political struggles, or whatever purpose is being fulfilled by The Games. If the players are rebelling, then they won't be playing. Maybe the Master's just don't want to be forced to kill them all and start over?
They don't really paint themselve as administrators and officiators so much as they do gods. The thing about the Masters is that while they try to maintain an uncaring and impartial visage, nearly all of them are drunk on the power they have. Several of them would kill everyone in the Hub just because they could. Only the will of The Grand Master, as well as the machinations of some of the more benevolent Masters keep the morally bankrupt ones in check. This doens't, however, prevent them from exercising truly sick challenges out in their levels. One of them, I'm thinking, reads the minds of all who pass through portals to his levels, and then he twists and shapes the Levels to play to the players fears, their desires, their dreams, their nightmares. Some leave with their minds broken beyond repair.

OTOH, the enforcers could be a self-appointed group within the Hub. They'd still behave the same way, but without the Master-given authority they'd become more of a wild card. It's interesting that there could be other such factions among the players as well. Kinda like gangs. Some could be neutral, while others could be more helpful or serve as minor rivals or antagonists.
They wouldn't be allowed to use violence though, and the Masters wouldn't think them capable enough to prevent rule-breaking in the Hub. But yes, factions or gangs are a major part of hub life. Some gangs compete out in the levels, others try to make life in The Hub better, while others just like to harass new players. At heroic levels, it's the factions the PC's have to learn how to navigate, which prepares them for the more byzantine plots of The Masters, and the massive Xanatos Roulette (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosRoulette) that the Grand Master has in the works.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-08, 01:01 PM
The one problem is that, if The Rule is used, any violence in the Hub results in pain/death - the Enforcers included.

I'm not so sure about unstoppable force = more uprisings either. If the force is truly unstoppable but otherwise passive, there is little reason to rebel & die. Remember that while the Masters demand adventuring, they don't interfere in the personal lives of people while in The Hub - so long as nobody gets hurt.
Precisely!

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-08, 01:04 PM
No... what I'm thinking is the "banks" just exist as secure places to stock Tokens. The Tokens should be unmarked - part of the Master's Game is that they need many Tokens, but the only entity that makes Tokens is the Grand Master - and he hides them in Levels and forbids the Masters from collecting them directly.

The Bank's only function is to allow the economy to function without people carting around wheelbarrows of Tokens to buy a Longsword. The Bank issues coins for Tokens - and gives out Tokens for coins. Presumably the Bank takes a service fee for converting Tokens to coins (but not coins to Tokens) in order for the Bank Owner to survive off this trade. The Bank should also have a mint that can turn precious metals into engraved coins.

The Masters may give out "Master Coins" as treasure, but those coins are worthless in terms of trade - in such a closed economy, gold is hardly as precious as a Magic Sword. You can convert Master Coins into Bank Coins, but at a steep discount - like 10% of value - since the Bank Owner does need more precious metals to keep making Bank Coins. This also turns the "traditional treasure" of GP into a farce, the dark joke of a Master.

N.B. even with infinite gold, the Bank Owner could not just "print money" (mint more coins than he has Tokens)... for long. The reason Bank Coins are valuable is because they can be redeemed (at a 1-for-1 ratio) for Tokens, which can be used to buy Boons and Gifts from the Masters directly - rather than adventuring. A "bank run" (everyone turning in their Bank Coins for Tokens) would turn the Bank insolvent if there are more Bank Coins in circulation than the Banker has Tokens in reserve... which likely counts as Fraud in the eyes of the Masters.

As a rule of thumb, you should never be able to get more Bank Coins out than you give Tokens. The "Master Coin" conversion is paid out by the Bank Owner's personal capital - which is why it is irregular and a "bad deal" for the sellers. But the Bank Owner is the only person who accepts gold as valuable, so whatever deal you get is the best deal in town :smallamused:

EDIT:


The Favored can also pay the Masters for Boons (special powers) and Gifts (magical items) - but they probably get a better exchange rate than the rabble. Ideally the Masters need to spend Tokens to maintain their own power level, so they charge more Tokens for these gifts than it costs to grant them.

Another thought for the Favored is that, once it is granted to you, you need to deliver a certain number of Tokens per week to you Master to maintain your status. Fail and... well, bad things happen. This can also lead to bloodthirsty Favored jumping n00bs in the Levels to gank their Tokens. :smalltongue:

Hoo boy. This is confusing! :smalleek:

Horatio@Bridge
2009-04-08, 01:13 PM
This is a really great idea! A few suggestions, since you asked:

1) Show, don't tell. Take the example of the starving conscientious objector. Instead of having an old-timer tell them about this guy who starved to death back in the day over his objections, have a young level 1 fellow get ported in at the same time as the PCs. He refuses to go along with the games, and as a consequence doesn't get fed. Now the PCs have a moral quandary--do they help keep this guy alive, or do they watch him starve to death? If they try to offer help, do the Masters interfere? How much are the PCs willing to suffer to aid this guy?

I do like the idea of people "beating the system" as being strictly legendary, though, except in very small cases. The man who escaped the games should be a legend, but it's perfectly reasonable that the players should meet another player who managed to get away with murder or some other lesser crime. Maybe this conscientious objector could be one such small-time rule-breaker.

2) I like the idea of player-created society. The player-economy is one such society, but what about other institutions? How about education, or law, or anything like that? I'd recommend dialing down what the Masters enforce in the Hub in favor of player-created societies.

For the Master's Rules, note that all the Masters care about is their game-pieces and personal power. This means that they have a very lax rule-set for normal players (pretty much, don't do anything that keeps the player from playing the Game, and don't do anything to rebel against the Masters like try to escape or refuse to play), but they'll have a much stricter set of Rules regarding their Favored pieces. Anyone who gains that status can expect the Masters to take a much more active interest in their well-being, and will be protected against things like assault, poisoning, theft, etc. Note that the Favored will also be somewhat "above" the Law, depending on how Favored they are. The Masters will still be displeased if a Favored kills a generic player, but won't kill him in revenge since the Favored is more valuable than that player. They'll just take away a useful item or deliver a stern lecture, depending on how valuable the Favored is to their Master. On the other hand, Favored are high-profile targets in the shadow-war between the Masters. In other words, the Masters treat the players as property, and apply rules accordingly.

The players, on the other hand, have as much of an interest in keeping the peace as any other society. In other words, there's the usual balance between what you can gain by working together versus what you can gain by exploiting the work of others by cheating. And, as in real life, there will be a lot of answers to that balance. Some portions of the game will be ruled by "survival of the fittest," perhaps with a Favored running the show at the top, while others will have strict hierarchies and rules to ensure that all players have an improved chance at the Games (and some will have rules to make it look like everyone has an improved chance, but which really benefit the people who made the rules). Now, there's one important difference between player-run societies and real-life societies in that all these player societies must obey the loose rule-set of the Masters. That means that execution is not a valid punishment, nor is long-term imprisonment (since it keeps the imprisoned player from joining the Game). That's going to make it hard for these societies to enforce their rules. Shunning, favor trading, mild beatings, short-term imprisonment, public shaming, and the like can all be used to great effect, however.

Story idea! One thing the Masters could do to coerce a person into playing would be to withdraw their loose protection. If that conscientious objector refuses to play for too long, they'll just publicly withdraw their protection and let the more unsavory types deal with him. If it gets too bad, they can order their Favored and other more tractable players to kill the non-conformist.

3) To help remove the linear rail-roading nature of your end-game, try to flesh out the Masters a little more. Give them varied goals and methods. Some of them might turn out to be genuinely good people (what if one of the more benevolent player-societies out there actually has a Master's backing?). You'll also have to figure out why they're playing the Game, since that's going to inform a lot of their decisions. Some ideas include:

Power: To the victor go the spoils--and those spoils can be used to a lot of ends. Maybe there's a benevolent paladin Master who's trying to gain the Thing of Power to aid in a crusade against Grazz't (or something even more epic, like destroying the Abyss itself). There's also an agent of Asmodeus who's trying to get the Thing of Power to help break the imprisonment effect on the Nine Hells, allowing the devils to roam free. Maybe an Angel is playing in order to stop Asmodeus, but acts nearly as cruelly to the players in order to advance in the Games enough to have a reasonable chance of success. The Angel's viewpoint is inhuman enough that it might not care about a few mortal lives in the grand scheme of things.

Amusement: The Masters are bored, and the Games provide a relief for that boredom. The players don't matter, nor does winning. This type of Master is just in it for a good game. Lolth would be a great Master of this type, periodically stirring up chaos even if it hurts her just to "make it more interesting." A powerful Ghaele Eladrin lord might play for similar reasons, but would be a bit less evil. They'd play the best they can, but would throw it all away on whims and silly gambles just to see what happens.

Victory: This type of Master doesn't care about the power or what's going on in the game. They just want to win. They might insist on doing in honorably, within the rules of the game, or they might do whatever it takes, including cheating, to get what they want. This type of master is ultimately about stroking their own ego, but the more benevolent type is the Asgardian warrior who wants to prove his mettle, while the more malevolent type just wants to see his opponents broken in the dust under his feat.

To keep all these other bastards busy: While the Masters are occupied with the Game, they're not mucking about with the rest of the world. They're not blowing it up, they're not flattening it with rules, they're not twisting entire societies to their depraved ends. This Master wants to keep the game going as long as possible to keep everyone else occupied. They probably wouldn't object to a few of the more egregious busy-bodies they're playing against get killed off in the process.

You're going to want to pick a motivation for the Grand Master, too, but I would offer one more special alternative for that guy: Pride in Your Work. The Grand Master created the Games, and he/she/it is proud of what he/she/it has made. The game has intrinsic worth to this person, just like a work of art or a good role-playing game. And they defend it accordingly. Of course, in this case you've got a pretty horrific work of art, and as much as the Grand Master might go on about the beauty of the society he/she/it has created, in the end it really needs to come crashing down...

Once you've defined the motives of all your Masters and the Grand Master, I think you'll find the Paragon and Epic tier adventures practically write themselves.

Edit: I like the idea that some of the Masters are simply drunk on power. That's a great motivation!

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-08, 01:27 PM
OK, simplified:
(1) The Grand Master distributes Tokens in the Levels and requires Masters to deliver 10,000 Tokens per year to him in order to maintain their Master Status. He then forbids the Masters from gathering the Tokens from the Levels themselves, and forbids them from stealing Tokens from mortals.

(2) The Masters know that they can give 1000 Tokens to the Grand Master and get a Sword +1. The Masters tell the mortals that anyone who brings them 2000 Tokens can get a +1 Sword without going to a Level.

(3) Adventurers gather Tokens to purchase +1 Swords, and begin offering goods and services in exchange for Tokens.

(4) Bank Owner sets up a Bank and a Mint. The Mint produces gold coins with values of "50," "100," "500," "1000." The Bank Owner sells these coins for Tokens, charging 10% over face value.

So in order to buy a 50 Piece, you need to give him 55 Tokens.

Bank Owner also says that anyone can exchange a Bank Coin for the face value number of Tokens. Give him a 50 Piece, and he will give you 50 Tokens.

(5) Merchant Adventurers begin accepting Bank Coins instead of Tokens, because one coin is easier to carry around than 50 Tokens. Masters still only take Tokens, of course.

That is the basic scheme. Now, how does the Bank Owner get his raw material?
(1) Masters, being able to generate gold "for free" as part of their status begin adding gold coins to the treasures in their Levels, to facilitate the Bank.

(2) Bank Owner has 100 Tokens of his own and needs 100 coins to produce more Bank Coins.

(3) Adventurers find 100 coins in a Level treasure pile.

(4) Bank Owner offers 1 Token for 10 coins. The Adventures sell their 100 coins for 10 Tokens.

(5) Bank Owner now has his 100 coins to keep the Bank going, and has 90 Tokens left over to support himself.

But why doesn't the Bank Owner just print lots of Bank Coins and buy up the town?
(1) Bank Owner has 1000 Tokens in the Bank

(2) Bank Owner wants to buy a 2000 Token suit of armor from a Merchant Adventurer.

(3) Bank Owner prints two, 1000 Pieces and buys the armor.

(4) Later, Merchant comes to the Bank to cash in his two, 1000 Pieces for 2000 Tokens.

(5) Bank Owner says he can only give 1000 Tokens; Merchant complains and a Master zaps the Bank Owner for Fraud.

How's that?

ashmanonar
2009-04-08, 02:13 PM
Another thing to think about, is what do the Gods think of this? This could be a non issue, but if you have a Cleric or Avenger or other divine character in the party, they may well petition their God for help, especially at higher levels. Can they influence The Games directly at all? If not, why? And why do divine characters retain their powers if they're cut off from their gods? You could say that divine power is cut off entirely, but one of The Masters with a similar outlook to that diety provides the power instead. Or, the gods might just not care, depends on how you run gods in general.

Divine characters in 4e rarely take their power directly from the god; it's more like they're ordained by the religious organization of the god, and the power comes from their belief itself.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-08, 07:41 PM
This is a really great idea! A few suggestions, since you asked:

1) Show, don't tell. Take the example of the starving conscientious objector. Instead of having an old-timer tell them about this guy who starved to death back in the day over his objections, have a young level 1 fellow get ported in at the same time as the PCs. He refuses to go along with the games, and as a consequence doesn't get fed. Now the PCs have a moral quandary--do they help keep this guy alive, or do they watch him starve to death? If they try to offer help, do the Masters interfere? How much are the PCs willing to suffer to aid this guy?

I do like the idea of people "beating the system" as being strictly legendary, though, except in very small cases. The man who escaped the games should be a legend, but it's perfectly reasonable that the players should meet another player who managed to get away with murder or some other lesser crime. Maybe this conscientious objector could be one such small-time rule-breaker.

I think that that's a great idea, but no one's ever "escaped" the games before. I think that having the quandary of whether to give their food, which they've earned, to a starving player who refuses to play or keep it for themselves and let him starve would be an interesting one.


2) I like the idea of player-created society. The player-economy is one such society, but what about other institutions? How about education, or law, or anything like that? I'd recommend dialing down what the Masters enforce in the Hub in favor of player-created societies.

For the Master's Rules, note that all the Masters care about is their game-pieces and personal power. This means that they have a very lax rule-set for normal players (pretty much, don't do anything that keeps the player from playing the Game, and don't do anything to rebel against the Masters like try to escape or refuse to play), but they'll have a much stricter set of Rules regarding their Favored pieces. Anyone who gains that status can expect the Masters to take a much more active interest in their well-being, and will be protected against things like assault, poisoning, theft, etc. Note that the Favored will also be somewhat "above" the Law, depending on how Favored they are. The Masters will still be displeased if a Favored kills a generic player, but won't kill him in revenge since the Favored is more valuable than that player. They'll just take away a useful item or deliver a stern lecture, depending on how valuable the Favored is to their Master. On the other hand, Favored are high-profile targets in the shadow-war between the Masters. In other words, the Masters treat the players as property, and apply rules accordingly.

The players, on the other hand, have as much of an interest in keeping the peace as any other society. In other words, there's the usual balance between what you can gain by working together versus what you can gain by exploiting the work of others by cheating. And, as in real life, there will be a lot of answers to that balance. Some portions of the game will be ruled by "survival of the fittest," perhaps with a Favored running the show at the top, while others will have strict hierarchies and rules to ensure that all players have an improved chance at the Games (and some will have rules to make it look like everyone has an improved chance, but which really benefit the people who made the rules). Now, there's one important difference between player-run societies and real-life societies in that all these player societies must obey the loose rule-set of the Masters. That means that execution is not a valid punishment, nor is long-term imprisonment (since it keeps the imprisoned player from joining the Game). That's going to make it hard for these societies to enforce their rules. Shunning, favor trading, mild beatings, short-term imprisonment, public shaming, and the like can all be used to great effect, however.

Story idea! One thing the Masters could do to coerce a person into playing would be to withdraw their loose protection. If that conscientious objector refuses to play for too long, they'll just publicly withdraw their protection and let the more unsavory types deal with him. If it gets too bad, they can order their Favored and other more tractable players to kill the non-conformist.
So what you're suggesting is to have the Masters not be in control of the laws of the Hub, instead having different laws for different sections depending on what faction is in charge and how they do things? That the Masters appear for serious crimes like murder and assault, which directly hurt the players, but stuff like robbery or vandalism is dealt with by the people?

3) To help remove the linear rail-roading nature of your end-game, try to flesh out the Masters a little more. Give them varied goals and methods. Some of them might turn out to be genuinely good people (what if one of the more benevolent player-societies out there actually has a Master's backing?). You'll also have to figure out why they're playing the Game, since that's going to inform a lot of their decisions. Some ideas include:

Power: To the victor go the spoils--and those spoils can be used to a lot of ends. Maybe there's a benevolent paladin Master who's trying to gain the Thing of Power to aid in a crusade against Grazz't (or something even more epic, like destroying the Abyss itself). There's also an agent of Asmodeus who's trying to get the Thing of Power to help break the imprisonment effect on the Nine Hells, allowing the devils to roam free. Maybe an Angel is playing in order to stop Asmodeus, but acts nearly as cruelly to the players in order to advance in the Games enough to have a reasonable chance of success. The Angel's viewpoint is inhuman enough that it might not care about a few mortal lives in the grand scheme of things.

Amusement: The Masters are bored, and the Games provide a relief for that boredom. The players don't matter, nor does winning. This type of Master is just in it for a good game. Lolth would be a great Master of this type, periodically stirring up chaos even if it hurts her just to "make it more interesting." A powerful Ghaele Eladrin lord might play for similar reasons, but would be a bit less evil. They'd play the best they can, but would throw it all away on whims and silly gambles just to see what happens.

Victory: This type of Master doesn't care about the power or what's going on in the game. They just want to win. They might insist on doing in honorably, within the rules of the game, or they might do whatever it takes, including cheating, to get what they want. This type of master is ultimately about stroking their own ego, but the more benevolent type is the Asgardian warrior who wants to prove his mettle, while the more malevolent type just wants to see his opponents broken in the dust under his feat.

To keep all these other bastards busy: While the Masters are occupied with the Game, they're not mucking about with the rest of the world. They're not blowing it up, they're not flattening it with rules, they're not twisting entire societies to their depraved ends. This Master wants to keep the game going as long as possible to keep everyone else occupied. They probably wouldn't object to a few of the more egregious busy-bodies they're playing against get killed off in the process.

You're going to want to pick a motivation for the Grand Master, too, but I would offer one more special alternative for that guy: Pride in Your Work. The Grand Master created the Games, and he/she/it is proud of what he/she/it has made. The game has intrinsic worth to this person, just like a work of art or a good role-playing game. And they defend it accordingly. Of course, in this case you've got a pretty horrific work of art, and as much as the Grand Master might go on about the beauty of the society he/she/it has created, in the end it really needs to come crashing down...

Once you've defined the motives of all your Masters and the Grand Master, I think you'll find the Paragon and Epic tier adventures practically write themselves.

Edit: I like the idea that some of the Masters are simply drunk on power. That's a great motivation!

That's the plan with The Masters. Each of them has a different personality and goals, and the PC's have to figure them out in order to deal with them. I agree that Pride in One's Work is the motivation of The Grand Master. The primary reason he/she/it instigates the war between the Masters in epic level is because he/she/it feels that The Games have become corrupt and stagnant, nothing like the work of art he/she/it thought The Games were when they first began. The reason he/she/it wants the Masters dead, and offers to make the PC's Masters at the end is because he/she/it wants to wipe the slate clean and start over. New Masters, new Players, new Levels, new Games. And if the PC's decide to try and fight the Grand Master, he'll/she'll/it'll be all "No! I will not let you destroy what I worked so hard to build!"

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-08, 07:44 PM
OK, simplified:
(1) The Grand Master distributes Tokens in the Levels and requires Masters to deliver 10,000 Tokens per year to him in order to maintain their Master Status. He then forbids the Masters from gathering the Tokens from the Levels themselves, and forbids them from stealing Tokens from mortals.

(2) The Masters know that they can give 1000 Tokens to the Grand Master and get a Sword +1. The Masters tell the mortals that anyone who brings them 2000 Tokens can get a +1 Sword without going to a Level.

(3) Adventurers gather Tokens to purchase +1 Swords, and begin offering goods and services in exchange for Tokens.

(4) Bank Owner sets up a Bank and a Mint. The Mint produces gold coins with values of "50," "100," "500," "1000." The Bank Owner sells these coins for Tokens, charging 10% over face value.

So in order to buy a 50 Piece, you need to give him 55 Tokens.

Bank Owner also says that anyone can exchange a Bank Coin for the face value number of Tokens. Give him a 50 Piece, and he will give you 50 Tokens.

(5) Merchant Adventurers begin accepting Bank Coins instead of Tokens, because one coin is easier to carry around than 50 Tokens. Masters still only take Tokens, of course.

That is the basic scheme. Now, how does the Bank Owner get his raw material?
(1) Masters, being able to generate gold "for free" as part of their status begin adding gold coins to the treasures in their Levels, to facilitate the Bank.

(2) Bank Owner has 100 Tokens of his own and needs 100 coins to produce more Bank Coins.

(3) Adventurers find 100 coins in a Level treasure pile.

(4) Bank Owner offers 1 Token for 10 coins. The Adventures sell their 100 coins for 10 Tokens.

(5) Bank Owner now has his 100 coins to keep the Bank going, and has 90 Tokens left over to support himself.

But why doesn't the Bank Owner just print lots of Bank Coins and buy up the town?
(1) Bank Owner has 1000 Tokens in the Bank

(2) Bank Owner wants to buy a 2000 Token suit of armor from a Merchant Adventurer.

(3) Bank Owner prints two, 1000 Pieces and buys the armor.

(4) Later, Merchant comes to the Bank to cash in his two, 1000 Pieces for 2000 Tokens.

(5) Bank Owner says he can only give 1000 Tokens; Merchant complains and a Master zaps the Bank Owner for Fraud.

How's that?

Okay, I think I get it now. So how do I convert all the prices in the PHB and Adventurer's Vault?

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-08, 08:32 PM
Okay, I think I get it now. So how do I convert all the prices in the PHB and Adventurer's Vault?

Simple - everything is denominated in Tokens. The price conversion rate would be 100 Tokens = 1 GP; the Bank is just there to make commerce easier, 'cause that's a lot of tokens.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-08, 08:46 PM
So are they just going to find piles of these things scattered about the Levels? If they wanted a +6 weapon they'd have to gather millions of tokens.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-08, 08:54 PM
So are they just going to find piles of these things scattered about the Levels? If they wanted a +6 weapon they'd have to gather millions of tokens.

I thought the Levels were supposed to be strewn with treasure pockets? :smallconfused:

Spending Tokens is a way to get exactly what you want, without having to adventure for it.

Of course you need to make the Token Price for items lower than the Enchant Item Ritual cost - and you may need to get in good with one of the "temples" to even have a shot at getting Boons.

Draz74
2009-04-08, 09:28 PM
The "cheating the system, doing stuff behind the masters' backs" stuff is definitely making me think of combing Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow for ideas. :smallamused:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-08, 09:44 PM
I've never read those books. Care to explain?

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-08, 10:03 PM
I've never read those books. Care to explain?

Just comb these tropes. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TryingToCatchMeFightingDirty)

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-08, 11:09 PM
That's mostly about personal combat rather than the long scale rules of The Games.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-08, 11:34 PM
That's mostly about personal combat rather than the long scale rules of The Games.

They're also about subverting rules.

Check out the following:
No Purple Dragons (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoPurpleDragons)
The Enemy Gate Is Down (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheEnemyGateIsDown)
Take A Third Option (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeAThirdOption)
and Cutting the Knot (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CuttingTheKnot)

Not tremendously helpful, but if you want to do some Erfworld-style rules abuse, it's a thought.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-08, 11:57 PM
I could see something like that happening. The whole theme of this, at least as I'm seeing it, is that ignoring the rules or trying to use brute strength have no effect on the game, and only by following the rules is victory possible. And of course by "following the rules" I mean "try to figure out loopholes and catches within the rules that give you an advantage." The trick is to break the rules in subtle ways. Obvious rule-breaking results in punishment, but if you're smart, you can cheat without cheating. Am I making sense here?

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-09, 12:47 AM
Yep.

If you don't read Erfworld (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0001.html), you should. It'll give you good material.

Thrud
2009-04-09, 06:30 AM
Maybe the hub is divided into different areas that are 'ruled' over by different Masters. Each section of the Hub has its own rules, this can lead to a lot of interesting possibilities for the game. Evil Master has his section of the hub set up so that there are no real rules, only might makes right, because he thinks that will train the strongest players. Other sections of the hub are set up with different rules, all according to the controlling master's own set of morals. This will let the players gain information and insight into the way some of the Master's minds work. now the kicker, of course, is that the portals are spread all over the Hub, and sometimes you have to go through very unsavory areas in order to make it to the portal that you need. Favored individuals, of course, are exempt from these sorts of problems.

And of course, this would lead to another possibility, purchasing a temporary limited favored status for just long enough to pass through a territory.

Intersting concept. I don't care much for 4ed, so I can't help with anything rules specific to 4ed since my group stopped playing after a couple of games, but the setting looks like it could be a lot of fun. I am wondering what you are going to do when the players begin to reach the higher levels, however. You are going to need to set out exactly what sorts of 'boons' might be awarded by the masters. Perhaps some of the ones that on the surface seem more 'evil' i.e. the ones where there are no rules in their section of the hub, might give out the better boons later on, on the grounds that those who survived have 'earned' them, and since there are less who reach the higher levels, they spend a comparable amount of power as the other masters do, just spread less thinly.

I'll think about this some more. It has been an interesting bit of world building so far.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-09, 08:10 AM
Yep.

If you don't read Erfworld (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0001.html), you should. It'll give you good material.

Oh don't worry, I check on Erfworld regularly. What, you think I came here just for the forums? :smalltongue:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-09, 08:45 AM
Maybe the hub is divided into different areas that are 'ruled' over by different Masters. Each section of the Hub has its own rules, this can lead to a lot of interesting possibilities for the game. Evil Master has his section of the hub set up so that there are no real rules, only might makes right, because he thinks that will train the strongest players. Other sections of the hub are set up with different rules, all according to the controlling master's own set of morals. This will let the players gain information and insight into the way some of the Master's minds work. now the kicker, of course, is that the portals are spread all over the Hub, and sometimes you have to go through very unsavory areas in order to make it to the portal that you need. Favored individuals, of course, are exempt from these sorts of problems.

And of course, this would lead to another possibility, purchasing a temporary limited favored status for just long enough to pass through a territory.

Intersting concept. I don't care much for 4ed, so I can't help with anything rules specific to 4ed since my group stopped playing after a couple of games, but the setting looks like it could be a lot of fun. I am wondering what you are going to do when the players begin to reach the higher levels, however. You are going to need to set out exactly what sorts of 'boons' might be awarded by the masters. Perhaps some of the ones that on the surface seem more 'evil' i.e. the ones where there are no rules in their section of the hub, might give out the better boons later on, on the grounds that those who survived have 'earned' them, and since there are less who reach the higher levels, they spend a comparable amount of power as the other masters do, just spread less thinly.

I'll think about this some more. It has been an interesting bit of world building so far.

I worry that that might make things a bit too complicated in the Hub. The thing about the Hub is that it's the one truly safe place in the entire games. Out in the Levels, everything's either trying to mislead you, hurt you, confuse you or kill you. And I'm not just talking about the other Players. Besides, it's not like if you have a beef with someone killing them isn't an option. If you want to kill someone, you can do it out in the Levels, where that's normally allowed (I say normally because some Masters bar it on their Levels, especially ones who prefer puzzles to brute strength.)

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-09, 12:10 PM
Okay, here's my attempt at a write-up of the Hub:

The Hub is located at the center of the sprawling archipelago of demiplanes that make up The Games. It is fashioned like an ancient temple-city complex, made of a blackish-purple stone. It's unknown as to how big the Hub truly is, but most suspect that it is infinite.

The Hub is divided into several sections, each important to its function and each very crowded.

The Warrens are where the majority of players live. They consist of floor after floor of rooms. The halls of the Warrens are somewhere between a hotel hallway and an alleyway. Set into both walls are doors for the rooms of players who've earned the appropriate Player's Badge. Each room is essentially like a room in a cheap, yet decent hotel. They have comfortable beds, sanitation and a small bit of recreational materials (like the cable TV one might have in a Holiday Inn.) Outside these rooms, the halls are always packed with players who live out in the halls like beggars, players just passing through, and the occasional appearance of a Master. Each floor of the Warrens usually has one or several people who set themselves up as leaders and representatives of that floor, and they develop the rules and unspoken codes of behavior on their floor. One floor might believe survival of the fittest is the only law, and visitors to that floor are bullied out of their tokens for safe passage, while another floor behaves in a militaristic fashion, with set curfews and strict rules.

The each floor in the Warrens has a set of portals that connect to the "main floor" of the Hub, called the Promenade. The Promenade is in fact a common area, but several shops and stalls have appeared here as players "retired" from the Games to provide necessary services to other players. Off to one side is the Merchant section, where various goods and services are bartered for tokens or bank coins. Another area is the meal pavillion, where people with the correct Player Badge recieve their food rations. Several experienced players have set up an area in another section of the Promenade where they work as tutors and trainers to the less experienced players. Some of the more devout players have set up shrines to their respective gods in the area. All these, however, are dwarfed by the Grand Staircase, a stairway that spirals upwards above the Promenade. At the top of the Promenade is a small circular platform, with several portals in a circle at the edges, each portal frame containing a representation of a Master's mask, each mask different for each Master. Entering into one of these portals transports the players into a sort of antechamber dedicated to that particular master, which is decorated in that Master's preferred style and centered around a statue of the Master. This antechamber has portals that lead to the levels controlled by that particular master.

What do you think? Should I add more detail?

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-09, 12:52 PM
Okay, here's my attempt at a write-up of the Hub:The Hub is located at the center of the sprawling archipelago of demiplanes that make up The Games. It is fashioned like an ancient temple-city complex, made of a blackish-purple stone. It's unknown as to how big the Hub truly is, but most suspect that it is infinite.

The Hub is divided into several sections, each important to its function and each very crowded.

The Warrens are where the majority of players live. They consist of floor after floor of rooms. The halls of the Warrens are somewhere between a hotel hallway and an alleyway. Set into both walls are doors for the rooms of players who've earned the appropriate Player's Badge. Each room is essentially like a room in a cheap, yet decent hotel. They have comfortable beds, sanitation and a small bit of recreational materials (like the cable TV one might have in a Holiday Inn.) Outside these rooms, the halls are always packed with players who live out in the halls like beggars, players just passing through, and the occasional appearance of a Master. Each floor of the Warrens usually has one or several people who set themselves up as leaders and representatives of that floor, and they develop the rules and unspoken codes of behavior on their floor. One floor might believe survival of the fittest is the only law, and visitors to that floor are bullied out of their tokens for safe passage, while another floor behaves in a militaristic fashion, with set curfews and strict rules.

The each floor in the Warrens has a set of portals that connect to the "main floor" of the Hub, called the Promenade. The Promenade is in fact a common area, but several shops and stalls have appeared here as players "retired" from the Games to provide necessary services to other players. Off to one side is the Merchant section, where various goods and services are bartered for tokens or bank coins. Another area is the meal pavillion, where people with the correct Player Badge recieve their food rations. Several experienced players have set up an area in another section of the Promenade where they work as tutors and trainers to the less experienced players. Some of the more devout players have set up shrines to their respective gods in the area. All these, however, are dwarfed by the Grand Staircase, a stairway that spirals upwards above the Promenade. At the top of the Promenade is a small circular platform, with several portals in a circle at the edges, each portal frame containing a representation of a Master's mask, each mask different for each Master. Entering into one of these portals transports the players into a sort of antechamber dedicated to that particular master, which is decorated in that Master's preferred style and centered around a statue of the Master. This antechamber has portals that lead to the levels controlled by that particular master.

What do you think? Should I add more detail?

Not bad. I'd make the living spaces more spartan though - there shouldn't be any reason to stay in your room rather than go out and adventure. Then people need to invent games, and make them out of local materials - a gambling den with dice made out of monster knuckle bones, for example. Put a few entertainment spots along the Promenade and you'll make the place "feel" a little more.

Also, have people receive food in their rooms. You should make it "pop" as in Erfworld and without the adventurer's intervention. All non-consumed bits of meals vanish after x hours. This helps to tie the sustenance to Badges and provides a greater sense of isolation. Rooms should also magically freshen whenever the room is empty.

I like what you've done with the Warrens, but I think you need to flesh it out a bit more.
There is a Lobby that consists of one "in" portal and one "out" portal. The "in" portal will take you to the room your Badge opens - for first timers, this can be random. You can also speak a command phrase (inscribed outside to "entrance" portal for each floor) to go to a specific floor. People without Badges cannot access the portals, so the beggars will huddled about the Lobby and the space outside it.

Each floor has an "entrance" portal and an "exit" portal - the "entrance" portal admits people from the Lobby while the "Exit" returns people to the Lobby. In order to go between floors, you must go through the Lobby. Additionally, every "floor" appears to be completely isolated from the others; you can't hear through the floor or ceiling, or otherwise communicate - though for certain communication spells (like Sending) they all count as overlapping; distance 0.

Your badge can be used to "attune" to any open room, which makes your particular identification rune (on your Badge) appear on the door. If you use it on a different empty room, you can switch rooms - turning off the "features" of your old one (food & sanitation) and making it available for a new resident; this is how "theme" floors came to exist. No door can be opened without a Badge; "owned" rooms can only be opened by the right Badge, used by its owner.

New Residents usually find their appropriate floor within a week of being there. If the Resident fits in (unlikely) the other people on his floor will make him feel welcome and show him the rules. If not, they will make "suggestions" of other floors where they may fit in better and, if that doesn't work, make the outsider's life "unpleasant" within the boundaries of The Rule. Floor Wardens (the "king" of each floor) know about pretty much all the other Floors and make a good effort to recruit promising folks and direct others to "better" floors - a result of an unspoken understanding between the Wardens.

Also: are you going to go with the Temples of the Masters - buildings operated by the Favored of a given Master where Tokens can be exchanged for power? Or something else?

Thrud
2009-04-09, 11:05 PM
I worry that that might make things a bit too complicated in the Hub. The thing about the Hub is that it's the one truly safe place in the entire games. Out in the Levels, everything's either trying to mislead you, hurt you, confuse you or kill you. And I'm not just talking about the other Players. Besides, it's not like if you have a beef with someone killing them isn't an option. If you want to kill someone, you can do it out in the Levels, where that's normally allowed (I say normally because some Masters bar it on their Levels, especially ones who prefer puzzles to brute strength.)

Fair enough, it was just another way to let the players get insights into the minds of the masters, but there are lots of ways to do that, and you already have a very ordered idea of what you want the hub to look like, so I won't try to mess with it too much.

Interesting thought, however, perhaps one of the favors people compete for early on is special food privelidges. Perhaps the free food that is provided is like the food from a Murlynds spoon (if that even exists any more, and whether or not I spelled it correctly) It has the consistency and taste of library paste, but has everything you need to survive and even thrive, except flavor. Then one master tells everyone that the first person to complete 'X' Level or task will be fed Steak, bacon, eggs, bread, etc, from then on.

How about making the entire hub be an anti-magic zone too, for anything except the Master's magic. Only, perhaps the Hub really is infinite, and if you get far enough away from the 'settled' areas, spells begin to work once again. (Wait, you are doing 4th ed, so rituals work, whatever) That could lead to some interesting problems. You can't raise someone from the dead in the Hub(or do anything else magical) where it is 'safe', it has to be done out in a Level where you are vulnerable to other groups.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-09, 11:32 PM
Not bad. I'd make the living spaces more spartan though - there shouldn't be any reason to stay in your room rather than go out and adventure. Then people need to invent games, and make them out of local materials - a gambling den with dice made out of monster knuckle bones, for example. Put a few entertainment spots along the Promenade and you'll make the place "feel" a little more.

Also, have people receive food in their rooms. You should make it "pop" as in Erfworld and without the adventurer's intervention. All non-consumed bits of meals vanish after x hours. This helps to tie the sustenance to Badges and provides a greater sense of isolation. Rooms should also magically freshen whenever the room is empty.

I like what you've done with the Warrens, but I think you need to flesh it out a bit more.
There is a Lobby that consists of one "in" portal and one "out" portal. The "in" portal will take you to the room your Badge opens - for first timers, this can be random. You can also speak a command phrase (inscribed outside to "entrance" portal for each floor) to go to a specific floor. People without Badges cannot access the portals, so the beggars will huddled about the Lobby and the space outside it.

Each floor has an "entrance" portal and an "exit" portal - the "entrance" portal admits people from the Lobby while the "Exit" returns people to the Lobby. In order to go between floors, you must go through the Lobby. Additionally, every "floor" appears to be completely isolated from the others; you can't hear through the floor or ceiling, or otherwise communicate - though for certain communication spells (like Sending) they all count as overlapping; distance 0.

Your badge can be used to "attune" to any open room, which makes your particular identification rune (on your Badge) appear on the door. If you use it on a different empty room, you can switch rooms - turning off the "features" of your old one (food & sanitation) and making it available for a new resident; this is how "theme" floors came to exist. No door can be opened without a Badge; "owned" rooms can only be opened by the right Badge, used by its owner.

New Residents usually find their appropriate floor within a week of being there. If the Resident fits in (unlikely) the other people on his floor will make him feel welcome and show him the rules. If not, they will make "suggestions" of other floors where they may fit in better and, if that doesn't work, make the outsider's life "unpleasant" within the boundaries of The Rule. Floor Wardens (the "king" of each floor) know about pretty much all the other Floors and make a good effort to recruit promising folks and direct others to "better" floors - a result of an unspoken understanding between the Wardens.

Also: are you going to go with the Temples of the Masters - buildings operated by the Favored of a given Master where Tokens can be exchanged for power? Or something else?

All excellent suggestions Oracle Hunter. Sorry about the initial lack of detail, I was trying to collect all my thoughts. Building societies is always tiring work.

I'm not certain about the temples of the Masters. While I like the idea that tokens can be exchanged for power and the like, I'm hesitant to treat the Masters like actual deities. While they're powerful and snobbish to be sure, they'd be offended if they were called gods. That implies a responsibility to the players that "worship" them, and the Masters don't like having those kinds of connections. Players serve them, but the Masters don't owe the players anything (or at least that's the impression they try to maintain.) The Masters need the players to collect tokens for them, but they don't want the players thinking that they have any leverage over the Masters.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-09, 11:37 PM
Fair enough, it was just another way to let the players get insights into the minds of the masters, but there are lots of ways to do that, and you already have a very ordered idea of what you want the hub to look like, so I won't try to mess with it too much.

Interesting thought, however, perhaps one of the favors people compete for early on is special food privelidges. Perhaps the free food that is provided is like the food from a Murlynds spoon (if that even exists any more, and whether or not I spelled it correctly) It has the consistency and taste of library paste, but has everything you need to survive and even thrive, except flavor. Then one master tells everyone that the first person to complete 'X' Level or task will be fed Steak, bacon, eggs, bread, etc, from then on.

How about making the entire hub be an anti-magic zone too, for anything except the Master's magic. Only, perhaps the Hub really is infinite, and if you get far enough away from the 'settled' areas, spells begin to work once again. (Wait, you are doing 4th ed, so rituals work, whatever) That could lead to some interesting problems. You can't raise someone from the dead in the Hub(or do anything else magical) where it is 'safe', it has to be done out in a Level where you are vulnerable to other groups.

I was thinking of an idea similar to that, having players who do well and obtain many tokens gaining special priveleges, like better food.

As to the Hub having anti-magic properties, that's a tricky question. Most actual spells are geared towards combat, which is banned in the Hub, but rituals perform multipurpose services that the players might want. Teleportation rituals, I've already ruled, merely transport you to locations in the Games's demiplanes similar to the ones the ritual takes you too. Perhaps ritual casting in the Hub is another earned privilege? Out in the Levels, where things like Raise Dead and stuff would be needed, the rituals work fine, but only players of a certain rank have permission to cast them while in the Hub, and they gain the opportunity to make some extra pocket money by selling their services to players who can't cast rituals.

NeoVid
2009-04-09, 11:51 PM
I think that might work too. The idea is that the tokens go to the Masters though, so the Favored making the exchange have to profit somehow. How?


Keeping a percentage. The funny side effect of this method would be that the Favored who keep a smaller percentage would be more Favored than others. So the ones with the most wealth in the Hub would be the weakest. And the one who has nothing but his shop and the clothes on his back? The last person in the Hub you want to screw with.

Yakk
2009-04-09, 11:54 PM
I'd be tempted to change things more at Heroic/Paragon/Epic.

Heroic would be the point where you are little but pawns in the game. You play along, or are screwed. By mid-heroic, you are noted as being special. By upper Heroic, you are starting to be among the top tier of gladiators.

Paragon is where you start breaking the rules of the game. You get a glimpse under the game -- possibly you are given chances to cheat, or you pull a fast one on a Master. At this power level, you are no longer a mere pawn.

By mid-paragon, your characters should be well into attempting a revolt against the game, and have some hope of succeeding.

The end of Paragon would be the point where they defeat the grand master, and the game comes tumbling down around them. They are free. Or maybe they just replace the grand master. Whatever.

Epic would be the point where the players have transcended the game. They have defeated the grand master. Maybe those running the game have fled into pocket dimensions. Maybe they find out what the game was preparing them for. Maybe they find the beings who where paying the game master for the bloodsport amusement of the game.

Thrud
2009-04-09, 11:57 PM
Edit, oops, forgot the quote -


As to the Hub having anti-magic properties, that's a tricky question. Most actual spells are geared towards combat, which is banned in the Hub, but rituals perform multipurpose services that the players might want. Teleportation rituals, I've already ruled, merely transport you to locations in the Games's demiplanes similar to the ones the ritual takes you too. Perhaps ritual casting in the Hub is another earned privilege? Out in the Levels, where things like Raise Dead and stuff would be needed, the rituals work fine, but only players of a certain rank have permission to cast them while in the Hub, and they gain the opportunity to make some extra pocket money by selling their services to players who can't cast rituals.

Yeah, another privelidge that has to be earned is a great idea, and gives you more things you can bestow on the characters without actually upsetting game balance. And that gives one more thing for the economy to barter with, the ability to perform rituals could be a pretty major money maker. And that still allows the players, at some point, to discover that if you move far enough away from the central living area you can perform rituals without getting caught, even if you are not technically allowed to. Which gives the players one more insight into the limits that are in place on the Masters. They are not truly omniscient or omnipotent.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-10, 12:05 AM
I'd be tempted to change things more at Heroic/Paragon/Epic.

Heroic would be the point where you are little but pawns in the game. You play along, or are screwed. By mid-heroic, you are noted as being special. By upper Heroic, you are starting to be among the top tier of gladiators.

Paragon is where you start breaking the rules of the game. You get a glimpse under the game -- possibly you are given chances to cheat, or you pull a fast one on a Master. At this power level, you are no longer a mere pawn.

By mid-paragon, your characters should be well into attempting a revolt against the game, and have some hope of succeeding.

The end of Paragon would be the point where they defeat the grand master, and the game comes tumbling down around them. They are free. Or maybe they just replace the grand master. Whatever.

Epic would be the point where the players have transcended the game. They have defeated the grand master. Maybe those running the game have fled into pocket dimensions. Maybe they find out what the game was preparing them for. Maybe they find the beings who where paying the game master for the bloodsport amusement of the game.

I didn't really make the Games with the idea that someone was watching them. The Grand Master made the Games simply because he/she/it felt like it, and the reason it's cut off from the rest of the multiverse is so that foreign powers do not meddle with the Grand Master's vreative genius. The Grand Master's only payment is the satisfaction of admiring his/her/its creation at work, kind of like an artist who hides his work in his attic and doesn't let anybody look at it. The whole idea behind the Games is that they're inherently selfish and pointless. The Grand Master doesn't want to share them with anyone, and doesn't get anything out of it besides the satisfaction of having made a masterpiece.

That's partially why the Grand Master wants to start over. He/she/it feels like the Games have lost the initial appeal they had when they were first created, and has the itch to create something new.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-10, 12:12 AM
Yeah, another privelidge that has to be earned is a great idea, and gives you more things you can bestow on the characters without actually upsetting game balance. And that gives one more thing for the economy to barter with, the ability to perform rituals could be a pretty major money maker. And that still allows the players, at some point, to discover that if you move far enough away from the central living area you can perform rituals without getting caught, even if you are not technically allowed to. Which gives the players one more insight into the limits that are in place on the Masters. They are not truly omniscient or omnipotent.

The problem with that is that the Hub is self-contained. The only place that is "outside" it are the Levels, where rituals are always allowed. The rest of the Hub is penned in with walls, even in the Promenade, which appears to be open air. Imagine a giant building hanging in space, with the Promenade as the roof and the Warrens as the floors below it, that's what the Hub is like.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-10, 12:19 AM
I'm not certain about the temples of the Masters. While I like the idea that tokens can be exchanged for power and the like, I'm hesitant to treat the Masters like actual deities. While they're powerful and snobbish to be sure, they'd be offended if they were called gods. That implies a responsibility to the players that "worship" them, and the Masters don't like having those kinds of connections. Players serve them, but the Masters don't owe the players anything (or at least that's the impression they try to maintain.) The Masters need the players to collect tokens for them, but they don't want the players thinking that they have any leverage over the Masters.

Alright, how about we call them Orders. The Favored of a given Master set up some manner of organization aligned with said Master for the purpose of channeling Tokens to their given Master and recruiting other potential favored.

The trick is we need some reason that everyone in the Hub would want the currency; the ability to purchase power directly from the Masters is pretty useful, which is why I wanted to use it.

You could just go with the standard coin system, if you want. Just make it so that, in addition to needing a Badge to access your room and basic necessities, you also need to pay upkeep on the room to keep it working. Have magic slots that devour coins and are linked to the auto-cleaning, food popping, and so forth. This way everyone needs coins to provide the necessities (just like in real life!).

It's a lot more mundane than the Token system, but it is certainly easier to manage.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-10, 12:21 AM
That might be easier. Economics has always been the most confusing aspect of developing a campaign world for me. I've never liked having to play accountant. :smallredface:

Thrud
2009-04-10, 12:40 AM
Hmm, does 4ed have any versions of summon spells? That could cause hilarity if things can be summoned in, but can't actually get back out again. And then they too are forced to take part in the games.

Someone did mention the idea of Levels that duplicate some of the other planes, though, so perhaps the Grand Master has just 'stocked' these places with creatures so that they can be summoned. Maybe that is just the way it is now. Perhaps early on he hadn't made up his mind yet, so a couple of more powerful critters were summoned in and forced to take part in the game. You could have some fun with that. A Demon stuck there in the hub having to play nice because of the rules, but having earned a position as one of the Favored. Now he runs one of the market stalls. Or perhaps some super good critter forced to take part in the games has now earned his favored status now too, and has a 'shop' opposite the demon's. That could be great fun to run as a DM.

Anyway, you might want to start thinking seriously about exactly how many people are taking part in the games. A few dozen? A few thousand? A few million? Is the settled area of the Hub the size of a small city, a large city, or a small country? In a way, having it be larger allows for greater leeway later on if you need to add NPCs, coz they could simpley be someone that the players hadn't met yet. Otherwise, if the pool is too small, and you come up with a specific set of Favored NPC's, then later on find out that you need another NPC, you will be stuck with performing some sort of Deus ex Machina to poof someone into existence.

Still, a couple of ideas about prominent favored NPC's.

Elisa's House of Joys. -
This place caters to all the things that are hard to come by in the Hub. It has rooms for rent that have comfortable feather beds Elisa paid a master to create for her. It has food that a group of regular players hunt for her in a jungle level so she has real meats, fruits, and vegetables. And of course, she has male or female companionship. All for very reasonable rates. At least, she keeps telling everyone that they are very reasonable. Since she is the only one with a place like it, it is hard to tell.

Draakoth's House of Death - Draakoth is a Demon who was summoned in early on and forced to take part in the games (something that doesn't happen any more). However, instead of going to the place the Grand Master eventually created for him, he now runs a shop catering to the destructive needs of the players of the game. Weapons, magic and otherwise, of all shapes and sizes, makes and models, are his stock in trade. If you can cause destruction with it, Draakoth stocks it.

Aarissma's House of Peace - really kind of a misnomer, Aarissma is like Draakoth, a being summoned in early on, but Aarisma is some sort of good being (angel, deva, planetar, solar, whatever) who sells armor and healing devices. Aarissma is directly opposite Draakoth's and they are always watching each other closely.

Jacob's House of Sundries - Jacob sells pretty much everything else anyone might need that isn't covered by Draakoth or Aarissma.

Merlanthius' House of Magic - Merlanthius performs rituals for those who are unable to themselves, as well as having a modest stock of magical devices for sale.

Just a few ideas. These guys have earned their 'Favored' status and no longer wish to risk their comfortable lives by going outside of the Hub to participate in the games. But they need Tokens to maintain their status, so they provide goods and services to maintain their position. Perhaps the advent of these individuals has something to do with the growing dislike the Grand Master has with his creation. He wanted a place of battle and glory for gladiators to earn their way with blood and sweat, and instead he is gradually getting an economy and a middle class.

Thrud
2009-04-10, 12:45 AM
The problem with that is that the Hub is self-contained. The only place that is "outside" it are the Levels, where rituals are always allowed. The rest of the Hub is penned in with walls, even in the Promenade, which appears to be open air. Imagine a giant building hanging in space, with the Promenade as the roof and the Warrens as the floors below it, that's what the Hub is like.

Ahh, I see. I had kind of pictured the Warrens as stretching off into infinity, like tunnels that head downwards forever. The further away you get the dustier it becomes, and eventually you are so far away that no master will notice you. When you had said infinte earlier I figured it was an endless world that was totally uninhabited and barren, with one city in the middle of it. You could run away if you wanted to, but then you would starve as nothing lives or grows there. I hadn't realized you wanted it to be a closed system.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-10, 12:54 AM
Hmm, does 4ed have any versions of summon spells? That could cause hilarity if things can be summoned in, but can't actually get back out again. And then they too are forced to take part in the games.

Someone did mention the idea of Levels that duplicate some of the other planes, though, so perhaps the Grand Master has just 'stocked' these places with creatures so that they can be summoned. Maybe that is just the way it is now. Perhaps early on he hadn't made up his mind yet, so a couple of more powerful critters were summoned in and forced to take part in the game. You could have some fun with that. A Demon stuck there in the hub having to play nice because of the rules, but having earned a position as one of the Favored. Now he runs one of the market stalls. Or perhaps some super good critter forced to take part in the games has now earned his favored status now too, and has a 'shop' opposite the demon's. That could be great fun to run as a DM.

Anyway, you might want to start thinking seriously about exactly how many people are taking part in the games. A few dozen? A few thousand? A few million? Is the settled area of the Hub the size of a small city, a large city, or a small country? In a way, having it be larger allows for greater leeway later on if you need to add NPCs, coz they could simpley be someone that the players hadn't met yet. Otherwise, if the pool is too small, and you come up with a specific set of Favored NPC's, then later on find out that you need another NPC, you will be stuck with performing some sort of Deus ex Machina to poof someone into existence.

Still, a couple of ideas about prominent favored NPC's.

Elisa's House of Joys. -
This place caters to all the things that are hard to come by in the Hub. It has rooms for rent that have comfortable feather beds Elisa paid a master to create for her. It has food that a group of regular players hunt for her in a jungle level so she has real meats, fruits, and vegetables. And of course, she has male or female companionship. All for very reasonable rates. At least, she keeps telling everyone that they are very reasonable. Since she is the only one with a place like it, it is hard to tell.

Draakoth's House of Death - Draakoth is a Demon who was summoned in early on and forced to take part in the games (something that doesn't happen any more). However, instead of going to the place the Grand Master eventually created for him, he now runs a shop catering to the destructive needs of the players of the game. Weapons, magic and otherwise, of all shapes and sizes, makes and models, are his stock in trade. If you can cause destruction with it, Draakoth stocks it.

Aarissma's House of Peace - really kind of a misnomer, Aarissma is like Draakoth, a being summoned in early on, but Aarisma is some sort of good being (angel, deva, planetar, solar, whatever) who sells armor and healing devices. Aarissma is directly opposite Draakoth's and they are always watching each other closely.

Jacob's House of Sundries - Jacob sells pretty much everything else anyone might need that isn't covered by Draakoth or Aarissma.

Merlanthius' House of Magic - Merlanthius performs rituals for those who are unable to themselves, as well as having a modest stock of magical devices for sale.

Just a few ideas. These guys have earned their 'Favored' status and no longer wish to risk their comfortable lives by going outside of the Hub to participate in the games. But they need Tokens to maintain their status, so they provide goods and services to maintain their position. Perhaps the advent of these individuals has something to do with the growing dislike the Grand Master has with his creation. He wanted a place of battle and glory for gladiators to earn their way with blood and sweat, and instead he is gradually getting an economy and a middle class.

I like these ideas! I'll make sure to set them up on the Promenade.

The only part that feels a bit off is the potential Grand Master motive. He/she/it and the other Masters have no objections to an economy forming. It's all part of the Games and their organic growth. I'm sure they would have expected something like this to appear sooner or later. And not all the levels are about fighting. Some Masters like puzzles or mind games, and their levels focus on problem solving rather than violence. The idea of the Levels was to have a grab-bag of potential challenges that I could mix and match as the players explore, so I can keep things fresh and interesting.

Which leads to a potentially tedious issue. I need to decide on just how many Masters there are, how many levels each one of them controls, and how varied an individual level can be. I know I want an even number of them, so they all balance each other, but I don't know where to draw the line. One of my original ideas had been for there to be 30 of them, and each level represented a literal character level (the players would level up and then move to the next challenge,) but that seemed like an overly complicated idea, and risked the Masters becoming more important than the players.

Thrud
2009-04-10, 01:24 AM
I like these ideas! I'll make sure to set them up on the Promenade.

The only part that feels a bit off is the potential Grand Master motive. He/she/it and the other Masters have no objections to an economy forming. It's all part of the Games and their organic growth. I'm sure they would have expected something like this to appear sooner or later.

Just a thought. After all, you kind of need to figure out for yourself just why the Grand Master has been growing dissatisfied with his creation. Or does that not happen until the Masters begin openly fighting amongst themselves?



Which leads to a potentially tedious issue. I need to decide on just how many Masters there are, how many levels each one of them controls, and how varied an individual level can be. I know I want an even number of them, so they all balance each other, but I don't know where to draw the line. One of my original ideas had been for there to be 30 of them, and each level represented a literal character level (the players would level up and then move to the next challenge,) but that seemed like an overly complicated idea, and risked the Masters becoming more important than the players.

Hmm, that is something to think about. After all, your original idea was the the leadup to the endgame was a series of battles against the Masters, culminating in the face-off against the Grand Master. Are the players going to have to kill all of them? After all, the Grand Master has grown dissatisfied with them. If all of them have to die, then you may want to limit them somewhat. Having more than 10 could just be biting off more than you can chew. You have to seed in information about the weaknesses of the Masters, that the players have to pick up on. They have to figure out where and how to take down individual Masters, all whilst seeming to work for the masters, or eventually the Grand Master, all without letting any other Master figure out what is going on because if a Master does ever find out then they are dead as soon as they are in one of that Master's places of power.

You might want to go with less is more in this case. Each death of a Master is going to be a pretty pivotal occurance in the game, you don't want 3 or 4 of them happening in a single session. I believe the amount of work it is going to take to figure out all the necessary information on a given Master about his weak points, is going to necessitate multiple gaming sessions culminating with the death of the given master. From a sheer numbers perspective you might run out of time before you have leveled the players up further than you want them to be if you have too many masters.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-10, 01:50 AM
Which leads to a potentially tedious issue. I need to decide on just how many Masters there are, how many levels each one of them controls, and how varied an individual level can be. I know I want an even number of them, so they all balance each other, but I don't know where to draw the line. One of my original ideas had been for there to be 30 of them, and each level represented a literal character level (the players would level up and then move to the next challenge,) but that seemed like an overly complicated idea, and risked the Masters becoming more important than the players.

30? You were going to detail 30 unique planes of existence? Ambitious much? :smalltongue:

I'd say stick to a more significant number (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NumberTropes) - say 13, or 5.

Y'see, this way you can make each Level with a theme connected to a particular Master, and then have sub-sections of the Level for different difficulty levels.

Example - Puzzle World
Theme: Puzzles

Appearance: Puzzle World resembles nothing more than an oversized children's toy box - everything looks a little artificial and a little cartoonish. Most of the ground is made of a pleasantly soft grass-like substance that is unbroken aside from the areas occupied by Puzzles.

Rules: Combat and intentional injury is forbidden in Puzzle World. Each Puzzle has its own set of rules, which are usually posted by the entrance. Combat by Adventurers is usually outlawed, but sometimes allowed in a tightly restricted fashion. The death of adventurers by mishap is almost always allowed.

Locations
- Troubles Town: A town populated by life-sized wooden puppets and built out of garishly painted blocks of wood. The town's population is the main source of information about new puzzles and challenges in the world - though they have an annoyingly chipper manner of communicating it. It is located roughly at the center of the Level, and the Master's Portal opens up into the town square.

- The Hedge Maze: An ever-changing above ground maze filled with monsters, traps, and riddles. Looking over or moving through the hedges is forbidden, as is any attempt to damage them. Adventurer combat is allowed, though each new group of adventurers enters the Maze from a different entrance. At the center of the Maze is an elaborately carved treasure box that contains a reward for anyone who gets to the center. After taking the reward, the Maze teleports the victors back to the Maze entrance.

- The Puzzle Box: From the outside it looks like a massive block of wood, assembled from a variety of bizarrely carved sections of wood. Inside, it is a series of rooms, each with a single entrance and a single true exit - though the exit is usually blocked or obscured upon entering. In order to progress from room to room you have to solve the mental or physical puzzle presented in the room. The total number of rooms in the Puzzle Box varies from time to time, but the last room always holds a prize. Violence and most extraordinary powers are barred - adventurers need to use their native talents and minds to win.

- The Sphinx's Mountain: A towering mountain with a simple cut path that leads to the summit. At the summit is a Sphinx which asks the adventurers a riddle; solve it and you get a reward. Fail and you get attacked. But that's not all - the mountain itself is full of obstacles from rockslides to elaborately trapped caves. Everything is allowed on this mountain - though going off the path almost always leads to death.

Ideally every Level would have a neutral zone around the Portal, and some informational entities to direct adventurers to new quests and so forth.

Horatio@Bridge
2009-04-10, 02:29 PM
I think that that's a great idea, but no one's ever "escaped" the games before. I think that having the quandary of whether to give their food, which they've earned, to a starving player who refuses to play or keep it for themselves and let him starve would be an interesting one.


Just because no-one's escaped from the games doesn't mean people don't tell stories about it happening, and believe that they're true. Sow some misinformation!



So what you're suggesting is to have the Masters not be in control of the laws of the Hub, instead having different laws for different sections depending on what faction is in charge and how they do things? That the Masters appear for serious crimes like murder and assault, which directly hurt the players, but stuff like robbery or vandalism is dealt with by the people?


Yes. More the second sentence than the first. The Masters do have rules, but they're all pretty basic and are biased towards protecting the Masters' interests. The players have almost no protections of their own interests from the Masters, so they'll have to come up with their own institutions or it defaults to "might makes right."


One thing that you should try to figure out if Power is a motivation is what exactly the Masters get for "winning," and what is required for a Master to win? If you use the tokens, do they turn those tokens in for artifacts, rituals, and other Items of Power? You don't have to figure this out immediately, but you'll probably want to know by the time the players reach Paragon.

As for the number of Masters, you can have multiple kills in a single session as the PCs get more powerful. Have them form alliances, so one battle is the PCs against two, three, or even four Masters all at once. It's a way to ramp up the difficulty of the fights without defaulting to the Sorting Algorithm of Evil. Speaking of which, you should make a point of throwing an easy Master kill at the PCs later in the adventure, to show how much more powerful they've gotten. Furthermore, you can have Masters get bumped off by other players or other Masters when things get hot. In fact, the first Master kill might come from another Master, to show how Things Have Gone Horribly Wrong. Finally, there's nothing that says the PCs have to kill all the Masters. Maybe some of them run away, or maybe some of them join the PCs. If you've got a PC death at late Paragon or early Epic, maybe the next PC could be a Master who throws in his/her lot with the Heroes. Or some of the Masters might side with the Grand Master to cleanse the game. Or a lot of different things.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-10, 02:50 PM
All good ideas. I'm thinking of having eight to ten masters. The whole thing about it is that I want an even number of Masters so that they're all deadlocked and the Grand Master is the tie-breaker in all conflicts. Also, there's no real winning, even for the Masters. They can't win, but they can be more powerful and more important than the others. It's like the demons in Piers Anthony's Xanth series. They're in a constant competiton for prestige, with the only real prize being said prestige and the fact that their name becomes more complicated.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-10, 06:09 PM
How's this for the selection on the Masters:

Master "Paladin": This Master is a benevolent figure who thinks that in order for the Games to prosper, they must be fair. As such, he tolerates no cheating and insists on decent conduct from all who play in his level. He also believes in the concept of "Right makes Might" and many of his challenges reward moral and ethical decisions.

Master "Mindscrew": This Master is one sick bastard. He personally scans the brains of all players who brave his level. He uses what he gleans from these scans to tailor the challenges in his level for the players, preying on their desires and their nightmares. His challenges are meant to unnerve, scare and confuse unsuspecting players. Achieving victory in his level requires you to stand firm and not crumble in the face of his mental assault.

Master "Brainteaser": This Master reminds people of a crazy gnome. She's rather flighty and childish, and her level reflects this. She loves puzzles and is always interested in learning something new. Most of her challenges take the form of riddles and puzzles, rewarding smart players and frustrating idiots. She's not really mean, but has no respect for people she deems "stupid." (This master is directly inspired by Oracle Hunter's "Puzzle World" idea.)

Master "Exploder": Everything about this guy is loud and fiery. He delights in conflict, violence and most of all, fire. His level contains, among other things, a large open plain for large-scale warfare, a volcanic dungeon and a red dragon's lair. Out of all the Masters, he's probably the most straightforward, rewarding people who kick ass or burn things.

Master "Hippy": The level of this Master is like a mini-Feywild. There are vast forests, beautiful mountains and glistening lakes. The challenges here include hunts for unique animals, avoiding fey hunters, tending to sacred groves and preventing ecological problems. This master has a soft spot for rangers and primal characters, but anyone who enjoys the beauty of nature is welcome in this Master's eyes.

Master "n00b!": Though the PC's aren't aware of this at first, this Master was actually an ascended player. He slew the previous Master of his level, and in order to maintain balance, the Grand Master appointed him a Master. He's still trying to figure out just what sort of Master he wants to be, and he can empathize with the difficulties of the players, having once been in their shoes. Currently, his level is a gladiatorial arena, where players fight in duels. Interestingly, he personally attends each duel, while most Masters try to stay as behind the scenes as possible in their levels.

More to come...

Thrud
2009-04-10, 06:13 PM
All right then, so let me take a stab at creating a Master, and a reason for the master to be participating in the games.

Cyrus Blackmoor was a wizard who always believed he was destined for great things. However, he was never particularly interested in doing the hard work to earn them himself, which is why he made the pact with the demon lord. (Hmm, in 4th ed, I guess this would make him a Warlock. Not particularly important, you can fill in crunch yourself.) This pact would give him great power and the only requirement was supplying his patron with souls, only a few each year to begin with, but Cyrus had committed one of the classic blunders when dealing with the denizens of the Abyss, and did not read the fine print on the contract. The more he grew in power, the more souls he was required to provide. Until eventually he attracted the attention of many powerful adventuring groups. They tracked him down and assaulted him, one after the other. Each group stripped away more and more of his minions and personal protections, until eventually he was forced to flee with little more than the clothes on his back. He fled into the planes, deciding to use astral space as a place to hide and recoup some of his powers. And it was there that he was first introduced to the Grand Master.

Cyrus did not really understand what he was looking at when he stumbled across the weird little pocket dimension. It was sealed, seemingly impossible to enter. Yet if he could, it would provide an excellent place to hide. It streched his skills and power to the maximum, but eventually he was able to force himself inside. Once in he looked around and beheld a strange sight. A vast city, floating in the middle of nothingness. A voice spoke out of thin air next to him.

"Excellent, you have passed the test. You shall be my first Master of the games. You will have to design the tests yourself, but there are no other rules. And don't worry, that pesky little Demon Lord, and those annoying little adventurers will never be able to chase you in here. In here you are free to do whatever you want, as long as it furthers my goals. You will create demi planes of your own, and will be as a god within them. And you will have plenty of mortals to play with."

"Let the Games Begin!"

So, basically my thought here is that the Grand Master set up little tests around the planes, places that were virtually impossible to get into unless you pass a certain criteria. If you are too powerful, you can't get in. And if you are too weak, you can't get it. This of course, was only for the selection of the Masters. The gamers themselves are much weaker when they are brought in for the first time.

So, Cyrus himself was the first master (Or not, if you have someone else in mind, so be it. This is just a little brainstorming here) and he was selected purely on the criterion of power. He had the right amount of power, not too much, not too little. The Grand Master couldn't care in the slightest what his leanings towards good or evil were. But in Cyrus' case he lucked out. Cyrus is an unmitigated bastard, truly evil, and the greatest pleasure he has in life is making mortals scurry around at his slightest whim. The levels he designs are extremely nasty, and tend to focus on combat, though he also enjoys placing nasty traps all over the place too. He has a pretty twisted sense of humor, however, so he doesn't tend to want the traps themselves to be deadly. That would be too easy. He prefers them to cripple or maim, so that the despair of the players is greater.

O.K, any thoughts? Do you like this method of creating masters? Or do you want to go with something else? If you like it I can probably come up with a couple of others reasonably quickly.

Lamech
2009-04-10, 07:08 PM
Okay I have a couple of questions to ask, that should hopefully get thinking turning.

One: The tokens are hidden on the levels right? And Masters need them to live/prosper/collect? And masters control their levels? Why wouldn't a master, make his level filled with fluffy bunnies, amusment parks and a distinct lack of danger?

Two: Why not just make the tokens like the normal coinage? A bordem token is a copper piece. A mild dislike token is a silver piece. A lust token is a gold piece. A rage token is a platinum piece. Then you just need to come up with a taxation system of some sort, or the masters need to sell something. Ritual components for example.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-10, 08:26 PM
Okay I have a couple of questions to ask, that should hopefully get thinking turning.

One: The tokens are hidden on the levels right? And Masters need them to live/prosper/collect? And masters control their levels? Why wouldn't a master, make his level filled with fluffy bunnies, amusment parks and a distinct lack of danger?

Two: Why not just make the tokens like the normal coinage? A bordem token is a copper piece. A mild dislike token is a silver piece. A lust token is a gold piece. A rage token is a platinum piece. Then you just need to come up with a taxation system of some sort, or the masters need to sell something. Ritual components for example.

I'd assume the Grand Master would set the parameter that the Games have to actually be a CHALLENGE and since all the players are adventurers, constant danger is part of the contract.

I'm unsure as to whether I should make tokens easily substituted for coinage. Should I just say "Tokens are coins?" Or is that too easy?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-10, 08:30 PM
All right then, so let me take a stab at creating a Master, and a reason for the master to be participating in the games.

Cyrus Blackmoor was a wizard who always believed he was destined for great things. However, he was never particularly interested in doing the hard work to earn them himself, which is why he made the pact with the demon lord. (Hmm, in 4th ed, I guess this would make him a Warlock. Not particularly important, you can fill in crunch yourself.) This pact would give him great power and the only requirement was supplying his patron with souls, only a few each year to begin with, but Cyrus had committed one of the classic blunders when dealing with the denizens of the Abyss, and did not read the fine print on the contract. The more he grew in power, the more souls he was required to provide. Until eventually he attracted the attention of many powerful adventuring groups. They tracked him down and assaulted him, one after the other. Each group stripped away more and more of his minions and personal protections, until eventually he was forced to flee with little more than the clothes on his back. He fled into the planes, deciding to use astral space as a place to hide and recoup some of his powers. And it was there that he was first introduced to the Grand Master.

Cyrus did not really understand what he was looking at when he stumbled across the weird little pocket dimension. It was sealed, seemingly impossible to enter. Yet if he could, it would provide an excellent place to hide. It streched his skills and power to the maximum, but eventually he was able to force himself inside. Once in he looked around and beheld a strange sight. A vast city, floating in the middle of nothingness. A voice spoke out of thin air next to him.

"Excellent, you have passed the test. You shall be my first Master of the games. You will have to design the tests yourself, but there are no other rules. And don't worry, that pesky little Demon Lord, and those annoying little adventurers will never be able to chase you in here. In here you are free to do whatever you want, as long as it furthers my goals. You will create demi planes of your own, and will be as a god within them. And you will have plenty of mortals to play with."

"Let the Games Begin!"

So, basically my thought here is that the Grand Master set up little tests around the planes, places that were virtually impossible to get into unless you pass a certain criteria. If you are too powerful, you can't get in. And if you are too weak, you can't get it. This of course, was only for the selection of the Masters. The gamers themselves are much weaker when they are brought in for the first time.

So, Cyrus himself was the first master (Or not, if you have someone else in mind, so be it. This is just a little brainstorming here) and he was selected purely on the criterion of power. He had the right amount of power, not too much, not too little. The Grand Master couldn't care in the slightest what his leanings towards good or evil were. But in Cyrus' case he lucked out. Cyrus is an unmitigated bastard, truly evil, and the greatest pleasure he has in life is making mortals scurry around at his slightest whim. The levels he designs are extremely nasty, and tend to focus on combat, though he also enjoys placing nasty traps all over the place too. He has a pretty twisted sense of humor, however, so he doesn't tend to want the traps themselves to be deadly. That would be too easy. He prefers them to cripple or maim, so that the despair of the players is greater.

O.K, any thoughts? Do you like this method of creating masters? Or do you want to go with something else? If you like it I can probably come up with a couple of others reasonably quickly.

I think I'll use Cyrus as one of the Masters. Though I'm gonna tweak his story a bit so he deals with a devil instead of a demon. Devils are the deal makers in 4e. Demons in 4e are all "RAAAAAH DEMON SMASH!!!"

Lamech
2009-04-10, 08:42 PM
I'm unsure as to whether I should make tokens easily substituted for coinage. Should I just say "Tokens are coins?" Or is that too easy?
That would be simplest and easiest. It depends on what you want. Personally I would just do that and fiddle with the prices for the basic nessecities. The Masters needing the tokens is a good idea though.


I'd assume the Grand Master would set the parameter that the Games have to actually be a CHALLENGE and since all the players are adventurers, constant danger is part of the contract.
And the more challenging the more tokens? Otherwise the masters would have incentive to make it as "safe" as possible. That makes sense. It seems like there is a conflict of interest. The masters want tokens, players get tokens by winning. Of course, masters gaming the system would be interesting...

Another question: How much can the masters interfere on their levels? Can they come down and smite players they don't like? If a bunch of powerful players decide to set up a base in their level can they stop them? This whole set-up seems in many ways like Eve. In that game people had a high incentive in the PvP areas to form large guilds and control those areas, and the valuable resources in them. I suspect that players will attempt to do so unless they are prevented.

Another question: How dead is dead when someone causes trouble in the hub? Is it 3.5 sphere of annilation dead? Or is it 3.5 went to -10?

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-10, 08:46 PM
I'm unsure as to whether I should make tokens easily substituted for coinage. Should I just say "Tokens are coins?" Or is that too easy?

Just ditch the Tokens. They were only created to produce a reasonable economy - there doesn't have to be a reason for the Masters to do what they do.

I would have included them, but that's just because I love the "social science" dimensions of my campaign settings :smallsmile:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-10, 10:23 PM
And the more challenging the more tokens? Otherwise the masters would have incentive to make it as "safe" as possible. That makes sense. It seems like there is a conflict of interest. The masters want tokens, players get tokens by winning. Of course, masters gaming the system would be interesting...
I think I'm gonna scrap the token idea. Firstly, it's a lot to wrap my head around, and secondly, I want the Masters to have some measure of detachment. While they each have their own reasons for being involved in the power struggle, the main reason they're still going at it is because they have nothing better to do. The Grand Master tries to interfere as little as possible, and since they're all equal but have ambitions, trying to one-up each other is really all they can do.

Another question: How much can the masters interfere on their levels? Can they come down and smite players they don't like? If a bunch of powerful players decide to set up a base in their level can they stop them? This whole set-up seems in many ways like Eve. In that game people had a high incentive in the PvP areas to form large guilds and control those areas, and the valuable resources in them. I suspect that players will attempt to do so unless they are prevented.
The Masters actively prevent players from staying in the levels longer than they have to. Any food they try to gather or hunt for has an averse effect on their digestive systems, though it doesn't do this for monsters in the level. The idea is that they have to bring food and water if they want to survive there, and it encourages them to complete the challenges in a timely manner. I'm not familiar with Eve though. I'm thinking of banning the Everlasting Provisions item to prevent this sort of thing.

Another question: How dead is dead when someone causes trouble in the hub? Is it 3.5 sphere of annilation dead? Or is it 3.5 went to -10?
I haven't decided just how dead that is.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-10, 10:30 PM
I haven't decided just how dead that is.

No, don't kill them - just have them vanish. In reality these miscreants are transported to the Grand Master's Level where they can be "recycled" into raw material for Level maintenance.

It's delightfully sinister :smallamused:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-10, 10:51 PM
The Levels are PEOPLE!!! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoylentGreen) :smallbiggrin:

I've hti a bit of a snag. Everything I'm hearing about Arcane Power says it's gonna shake things up bigtime for arcanists. One of my players is playing a swordmage, which seems to get a big shot in the arm from Arcane Power. Should I delay starting the game (It's PbP) until I get a chance to look through Arcane Power and decide if it's kosher or not?

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-10, 11:12 PM
I've hti a bit of a snag. Everything I'm hearing about Arcane Power says it's gonna shake things up bigtime for arcanists. One of my players is playing a swordmage, which seems to get a big shot in the arm from Arcane Power. Should I delay starting the game (It's PbP) until I get a chance to look through Arcane Power and decide if it's kosher or not?

Ask your Swordmage player - and the others. In general I'd say no, but it's always best to ask your players about it.

Thanks to retraining, he can take advantage of AP Feats & Powers after the book comes out - it's not like Swordmages are bad right now.

In the alternative, you can just let him reboot his character's powers after AP comes out - subject to your approval first.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-10, 11:35 PM
Y'see I'm going through a similar issue. I'm playing a half-elf paladin who at the moment, is pretty crappy. I made him before the awesomeness that is the PHB 2 came out. I want to take advantage of it now, but I can't reboot my stats, which is what I'm concerned might be necessary if some of the changes in Arcane Power are that good.

DarknessLord
2009-04-11, 12:46 AM
Random master suggestion: Master "Snake Eyes"

Snake eyes is a gambler, success or failure, poverty or fortune, life or death, all hinge on the roll of a die. While almost all levels in the game carry a strong degree of risk, many of his challenges require a bet on the part of the players to even attempt and a special property of the plane causes anything lost in a bet from some gold to a life to be instantly forfeited by the losing party. The challenges are often simple games of skill or chance and the only combat that is allowed on the plane is designated arena fights in which betting can be a challenge unto itself. Within the level, a player is obligated to accept a bet when it is purposed to him, provided the terms are fair. Experienced players though, know that when dealing with Snake Eyes and his level, the trick is to know when to walk away and know when to run.

As for backstory/how he became powerful enough to become a master a master, I'd suggest giving him a divine power source (even if he's not gonna be a divine class) that he won in a game of chance from a god (There are some pretty cool stories/legends that involve people beating/outsmarting gods, so this isn't too out there and I think it'd be a good way to get some dude who was a regular gambler to get to master power level). Another thing, is I think he might be one of the few masters who doesn't cheat, or if he does, does so only to even the odds due to others cheating, after all, winning all the time isn't fun at all.
I could go into more detail if you like but I'd figure I'd leave it general just so you could get an idea about this guy, just thought I'd share an idea I thought was cool.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-11, 12:38 PM
An interesting proposal. That brings the grand total of Masters up to eight. Should I make room for two more, or do you think Eight is Enough?

Istari
2009-04-11, 12:58 PM
I think 2 more would probably be better

DarknessLord
2009-04-11, 02:45 PM
Honestly with only 8, I think each master would have to be a challenge on their own once they start fighting them, you could maybe throw a double header of two of them at once but over all I think it would be difficult to really show PC progress in gaining in power compared to the masters.

However, the fewer you have the more you can reasonably expect to be able to focus on each Master's personality quirks aspects of their domain and who they ally with/are enemies with, which can make them much more memorable.

Personally, I think the focus on the details of the masters is important, so I'd only go with as many as you think you can keep track of, if you do not have many masters then I'd show progress by stating them all to be about equal challenges throw other fights between each master and let them level up and make these guys seem progressively weaker by comparison, throw in that epic fight where they are now able to take 2 on at once thanks to those 4 levels they've gained.

That's just my thoughts.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-11, 06:47 PM
Okay, another Master to chew on:

Master "Performer": This master is an artistic snob. Everything in her level connects to performance or art in some way. Players might need to fight their way through a gallery of paintings (and when I say through a gallery of paintings, I mean literally, as in the PC's are inside the paintings struggling through the events depicted therein,) impress a panel of judges in an impromptu musical competition, or fight a gauntlet of enemies to provide inspiration for the Master to write a new epic poem. This Master looks down on the players, reffering to them in such terms as plebian, ignorant, or philistine, though she has a grudging admiration for bards. She still refuses to believe that any artistic talent is greater than hers.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-11, 09:36 PM
And...I have no idea what kind of Master should be the last of the ten

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-11, 09:51 PM
How about "Colosseum Master"

His level would be a no-violence arrival area attached to an anything-goes arena. Players could participate in solo contests or team battles, but can be thrown into a wide variety of terrains (floating platforms over water, narrow platforms over lava, icy tundra) and possibly with monsters or other traps thrown in to keep it interesting.

This Master just loves combat and seeing how the humans adapt to changing situations. He is one of the most "in touch" with the mortals, as he regularly hosts Tournaments in which the winner is granted His Favor. But, with his whimsical approach to challenges, any conflict in this level is extremely risky.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-11, 09:57 PM
I think I came up with a similar idea in Master "n00b!" :smallconfused:

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-11, 10:22 PM
I think I came up with a similar idea in Master "n00b!" :smallconfused:

Right, except n00b doesn't know what he's doing - Master Coliseum is a practiced hand at these encounters and constantly throws in "interesting" challenges to his unsuspecting gladiators. I find this a bit more interesting than having n00b fumble around with it, but YMMV.

For n00b I'd have him have a very disorganized Level with a bit of everything in it. It would be constantly changing, but it should have some theme to connect it to n00b's previous life - perhaps he enjoyed riding, so his Level always has some horses and horse-related challenges mixed in with the rest.

DarknessLord
2009-04-11, 10:26 PM
Another one just came to me...

Master Princess "Esmildia"
Esmildia's level is a fairy tale, literally, she conscripts players into playing out parts in her elaborate, but fairly cliched stories getting angry whenever someone does act like she think their role that she just arbitrarily assigns. Players play as both protagonists and antagonists and the fights and deaths within her stories are very real. Woe to the player who Esmildia decides needs to die for the story, making her level highly deadly. She takes an active interest in players who are playing her level, if only to make sure they stay on track. For those players who are scripted to live, and play their parts as she wishes them to, her level is actually a breeze aside from defeating other players who you are scripted to kill, and very much do not want to die. Esmildia insists on going by the title of "Princess" in place of master (and often plays one in her own stories), and changes her name as she fancies, always to something she finds extravagant, she appears to be a child, and whether she is one or not, sure acts like it. Despite her appearance, she is just as powerful as the other masters.

Or you could use Oracle Hunter's or someone else's idea, I've aready thrown one in. XD

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-11, 10:34 PM
I think you should name the Princess "Sue" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue) :smallbiggrin:

DarknessLord
2009-04-11, 10:43 PM
Better yet, "Marydoline" Neither Mary nor Sue really sound fancy enough on on their own...
I was explicitly going for a Mary Sue and I totally missed that! XD
Also, give her a nice dress (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PimpedOutDress)!

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-11, 10:50 PM
Nah, find a name that fits the Common Mary Sue Traits (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CommonMarySueTraits) list:


- May be named after the author in some form. Becoming less frequent as people catch on to the Litmus Tests.
- May have some overly long, complicated, usually Meaningful Name that relates to her abilities or personality - whether this is usual in canon or not.
- Her name is sometimes a gemstone, a flower, or a pretty color (e.g. Violet, Sapphire). With Emo-Sues, her name is something spooky, mystical, or related to darkness (e.g. Raven, Trinity). Of particular note, Serenity seems to be a cliche often finding its way into parodies.
- Maybe they have a generic Japanese name like Hikari or Sakura. Bonus points if it's a decidedly non-Japanese setting.
- A simple Japanese word which is not a name: Hoshi, Neko, Yume, etc. Oddly enough, these people never respond reasonably to the idea that, to a Japanese person, your character might as well be named "Chair".
- The reverse can also occur in other cultures, when people are given "exotic" English words for names. Often results in name which doesn't mean quite what the author intended, due to the large vocabulary and connotations attached to many supposedly synonymous words in the English language.
- Above all, the name is inconsistent within their particular culture. So you get cases of a small isolated village where Bob and Andy are lusting over Serenity Jasmine Sunrise Snapdragon.

So, perhaps Princess Neko Silvereyes :biggrin: