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Jane_Smith
2009-04-09, 03:30 AM
Finally... the 11th round. The last of the core classes.

This was.. interesting to work with. I tried to make clerics less of the power-houses they use to be by making them a little bit more vulnerable - light armor, no shields, simple weapons. Cloistered style, and only 4 + int skill points instead of the cloistured normal 6 +. I gave them d6 hit dice, and a tighter alignment restriction. Hey, if you channel SPELLS by FAITH from a -god-, you damn well better have the exact same alignment as him, otherwise your not really 100% to that deities ethics, are ya? "50% faithful" just doesnt -cover- it! Priests should emulate their gods considering the mystical properties pasted down to them. Oh, and i really hit their spells per day. >_>

As for other nerfs: My project denies the existance of Divine Metamagic for one and id pretty much outright ban it. Id suggest all other dm's do the same for the love of YOUR god. x.x

As for buffs - i have them bonus item creation/metamagic feats to give them a bit more options with spellcasting, gave them infinite per-day 0-5th level spells that scale with 1/2 their caster level, making them give the minor stuff and small buffs out without worrying about running dry mid-fight and can keep running for a bit. However, i did limit them to their domain. So unless their healing specialized, dont expect infinite heals over time. >_>


http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2600/524pxspiritualhealing.jpg

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The Priest~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PRIEST
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th
1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Aura of Faith, Bonus Feat, Invocation (Cantrip), Spontaneous Casting, Turn or Rebuke Undead|3|1
2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Invocation (1st)|4|2
3rd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3||4|2|1
4th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Invocation (1st)|4|3|2
5th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Bonus Feat|4|3|2|1
6th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+5|Invocation (2nd)|4|3|3|2
7th|
+5|
+2|
+2|
+5||4|3|3|2|1
8th|
+6|
+2|
+2|
+6|Invocation (2nd)|4|3|3|3|2
9th|
+6|
+3|
+3|
+6||4|3|3|3|2|1
10th|
+7|
+3|
+3|
+7|Bonus Feat, Invocation (3rd)|4|3|3|3|3|2
11th|
+8|
+3|
+3|
+7||4|3|3|3|3|2|1
12th|
+9|
+4|
+4|
+8|Invcation (3rd)|4|3|3|3|3|3|2
13th|
+9|
+4|
+4|
+8||4|3|3|3|3|3|2|1
14th|
+10|
+4|
+4|
+9|Invocation (4th)|4|3|3|3|3|3|3|2
15th|
+11|
+5|
+5|
+9|Bonus Feat|4|3|3|3|3|3|3|2|1
16th|
+12|
+5|
+5|
+10|Invocation (4th)|4|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|2
17th|
+12|
+5|
+5|
+10||4|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|2|1
18th|
+13|
+6|
+6|
+11|Invocation (5th)|4|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|2
19th|
+14|
+6|
+6|
+11||4|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|2
20th|
+15|
+6|
+6|
+12|Bonus Feat, Invocation (5th)|4|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|3[/table]

Alignment: A priest must have an alignment exactly matching his parton deity.
Hit Dice: d6.
Base Attack: Average.
Saves: Poor Fortitude, Poor Reflex, Good Willpower.


Class Skills
The Priest's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (All skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.


Class Features

Weapons and Armor Proficiency: Priest's are proficient with all simple weapons and light armor, but not shields.

Spells: A priest casts divine spells, which are drawn from the priest spell list. However, his alignment may restrict him from casting certain spells opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below. A priest must choose and prepare his spells in advance. To prepare or cast a spell, a priest must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a priestís spell is 10 + the spell level + the priestís Wisdom modifier. Like other spellcasters, a priest can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score. A priest also gets one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, starting at 1st level. When a priest prepares a spell in a domain spell slot, it must come from one of his two domains. Priest's meditate or pray for their spells. Each priest must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a priest can prepare spells. A priest may prepare and cast any spell on the priest spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A priest canít cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deityís (if he has one).

Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells: Choose a deity for your priest. If the typical worshipers of deity include the members of a race, a priest must be of the indicated race to choose that deity as his own. When you have chosen an alignment and a deity for your priest, you gain 2 domains of your chosen deity. Each domain gives your priest access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power. Your priest gets the granted powers of the domains selected of the deity. With access to multiple domain spells at a given spell level, a priest prepares one or the other each day in his domain spell slot. If a domain spell is not on the priest spell list, a priest can prepare it only in his domain spell slot.

Invocations: A Priest can cast some domain spells as invocations. That means that he doesn't need to spend a slot of an appropriate level to cast that spell. Any spell cast as invocation uses half the priests caster level, rounded down to a minimum of 1. A priest can select only up to highest level spells he could cast as half his caster level or lower for invocations when they learned. A priest cannot cast invocations if he has no spells slots left. At 1st level, a priest learns how to cast one 0-level spell as invocation (provided he knows that spell). At 2nd level and every two levels thereafter the priest may select another 1st level spell or higher (if his reduced caster level allows) from either of his domain lists to cast as an invocation. A priest can choose a spell he doesn't know yet, but he is unable to cast it until he learns it. He cannot, however, choose a spell he can't yet cast because his class level is too low to access that level of spells.

Aura of Faith (Ex): A priest of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity as a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment.

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, the priest gains an Item Creation feat or a Metamagic Feat as a bonus feat. He must meet the prerequisites for the feat selected. At 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the priest gains an additional bonus Item Creation or Metamagic Feat.

Spontaneous Casting (Ex): Priest's can channel stored spell energy into casting spells that are not prepared. The priest can "lose" any prepared spell slot that is not a domain spell in order to cast a domain spell of the same level or lower in its place.

Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su): Any priest, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol. A good priest can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil priest instead rebukes or commands such creatures. A neutral priest must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good priest or an evil priest. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. A priest may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. A priest with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) gets a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.

PumpkinJack
2009-04-09, 09:07 AM
I like the invocations idea. As you said, it's a good way to keep clerics good at buffing/healing without forcing all their prepared spells to be buffs/heals. One question though, isn't there a feat for spontaneously casting domain spells? You might want to consider giving that as a bonus feat at some level instead.

Also, and this is for my personal tastes, I always thought it would be cool for clerics to pick up more domains of their deity at higher levels. You'd get some cool special powers and some more variety to what you can prepare in your domain slots. Just an idea.

Markus Darkmind
2009-04-10, 02:30 AM
Althought this is a nice work, I think this version of the cleric looks a bit too underpowered...

At least, he surely is if compared with your versions of the other core classes, which I very like... But they are more powerful than the original ones, so why the poor cleric has to be weaker...? :smallfrown:

I don't think there's something that doesn't work in it, but I have this general impression that he'd be far weaker than his teammates, and that could be a problem, expecially for the fact that the cleric isn't very loved by players for his role as the group's nurse (may the cleric's fans forgive me for this one... :smallwink:).

If I could make a suggestion, I'd probably leave his spells as they were, or at least not cut them down that much. Also not allowing them to wear heavy armor seems a bit cruel... There is a reason if they had it in the first place, and it's to stay alive and make sure the rest of the group can do the same...

While I'm here, allow me to congratulate myself on your awesome work on the other core classes! :smallsmile: I really hope to see something new from you soon... Have you got any other project under construction at the moment?

Frog Dragon
2009-04-10, 06:49 AM
At least, he surely is if compared with your versions of the other core classes, which I very like... But they are more powerful than the original ones, so why the poor cleric has to be weaker...? :smallfrown:

Because core cleric is OP

Szatany
2009-04-10, 06:58 AM
I like the invocations idea.

Thanks :smallbiggrin:

Jane_Smith
2009-04-10, 07:37 AM
The cleric needed a "SERIOUS FRIGGIN NERF". Horribly. The cleric has so many tricks up their sleeves its pitiful.

Example, divine metamagic, divine feats, etc, a prestige class that gives it free maximized heals.. i mean, common. They have spells that increase their size, damage reduction, strength/constitution, AND base attack bonus to good in -ONE- spell, maybe two! And people were getting onto me for giving the rogues an option for a full base attack bonus! XD

As for the armor and shields issue - Dont worry. In my Variant Spell project, im making CURE SPELLS CLOSE RANGE :D 30 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels range, line of sight ranged touch attacks. Which is why i left their base attack at moderate still. Plus, invocations will basically let them infinitely spam stuff like Cure Critical Wounds by 14th level. You will notice i nerfed druids as well by taming that wild shape ability of theirs a bit, and tossed their heavy and medium armor proficiencies.

Cieyrin
2009-04-10, 09:20 AM
I do agree that clerics, while slow in power early on, definitely hit their stride at mid-level and can easily stand toe-to-toe in spell-slinging with a wizard or slide into melee with the right choice of spells and domains (Strength and Destruction ftw!).

While I agree that clerics are overpowering, I don't think they should necessarily have to be relegated to squishy-hood and cheerleader position. They should still have at least medium armor proficiency, I say, so they can at least relieve the meat-shield if need be. Not necessarily standing on the front lines all the time but able to take more hits and deflect them than the Wizard and Sorcerer can.

Other than that, I wouldn't necessarily write off all of the Divine feats. Divine Vigor was always a personal favorite of mine and it's by no means overpowering. From some of the later books, yes, they started to get pretty bad but to say that they're all bad is a little short-sighted.

Finally, I don't see why clerics can't be within one step of their god's alignment. I mean, looking at real world faiths, there are a number of different interpretations of the same holy scripts and books and yet they all serve the same deity in the end. Why shouldn't clerics be the same, with different interpretations of the same mores and tales yet being of the same faith? You can find support for this in various tales and novels, with different interpretations leading to clashes between factions of the faith, arguing their point of view, with splinter cults abounding as well. What fun is lost when there's only one view of your god, right?

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Telonius
2009-04-10, 11:03 AM
As for buffs - i have them bonus item creation/metamagic feats to give them a bit more options with spellcasting, gave them infinite per-day 0-5th level spells that scale with 1/2 their caster level, making them give the minor stuff and small buffs out without worrying about running dry mid-fight and can keep running for a bit. However, i did limit them to their domain. So unless their healing specialized, dont expect infinite heals over time. >_>

Unfortunately "Cure Minor Wounds" is a 0-level spell. They can still get near-infinite healing even without the Healing domain, it just takes a lot longer.

I really like the general idea of the invocations. But I'm going to go against the grain here and say that this class is overpowered as-written, due to the spell lists of the various domains.

For the War domain, Divine Power could be (more or less) permanently active starting at level 14, at the cost of 1 casting every 7 rounds (and less often as the character goes up in level). Strength Clerics could be spamming Enlarge Person at 2nd. An Air Domain cleric means that the party doesn't need to worry about archers starting at level 6. Luck Domain means that you get unlimited Protection from Energy (of whatever type you like) and unlimited Freedom of Movement. Trickery gives them unlimited Nondetection. Death Domain could give unlimited Death Wards.

It gets even more ridiculous outside of Core. Infinite Rays of Enfeeblement from the Necromancy domain in Eberron, infinite Anyspell from the Spell domain in Faerun, infinite Enervation from the Suffering domain in Faerun, infinite Haste from the Time domain in Faerun, infinite Polymorph from the Transformation domain in Races of Eberron.

I get what you're trying to do, and I think it's a great idea in the abstract. But without some major modifications to the Domain lists, this is a potential game-breaker.

Nomad Pangolin
2009-04-10, 01:10 PM
The cleric needed a "SERIOUS FRIGGIN NERF". Horribly. The cleric has so many tricks up their sleeves its pitiful.

No, some of the tricks need nerfed.


Example, divine metamagic, divine feats, etc, a prestige class that gives it free maximized heals.. i mean, common. They have spells that increase their size, damage reduction, strength/constitution, AND base attack bonus to good in -ONE- spell, maybe two! And people were getting onto me for giving the rogues an option for a full base attack bonus! XD

I see four problems with the variant cleric, based only on this paragraph.
1. You are rebalancing *core* based on an overpowered splat option, while at the same time declaring that the same splat option should not exist anywhere.
Solution: Nerf or remove Divine Metamagic - rule, for example, that its user is required to be able to cast the spell with the metamagic without using Divine Metamagic before being allowed to do so with it... or that it cannot apply metamagics with a natural +4 or higher adjustment.

2. You are rebalancing core based on multiple lesser splat options, some of which aren't bad and some are.
Solution: Disallow the divine feats that you don't want; or perhaps allow one as a default replacement for turn undead.

3. You are rebalancing core around prestige classes. This is always bad form.
Solution: Nerf or disallow the prestige class.

4. You are rebalancing core around two spells. Even though the spells are core...
Solution: Up-level, nerf, or remove Divine Power and Righteous Might.


As for the armor and shields issue - Dont worry. In my Variant Spell project, im making CURE SPELLS CLOSE RANGE :D 30 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels range, line of sight ranged touch attacks. Which is why i left their base attack at moderate still. Plus, invocations will basically let them infinitely spam stuff like Cure Critical Wounds by 14th level. You will notice i nerfed druids as well by taming that wild shape ability of theirs a bit, and tossed their heavy and medium armor proficiencies.

Short range is 25+5/2l, not 30+5/2l. That said, D&D is not Warcraft. The cleric variant you have here causes D&D to be Warcraft, by assuring at least the non-casters of being at full ability for each encounter, and that the cleric will be every bit the "sit back, wiggle my fingers, and spam hael plox" that healer classes are in MMO's.

There's also the Weather domain (SRD, from the deities book.) Infinite call lightning seems kinda powerful, too - especially if you get one or more Large air elementals at the same time.

So for as "nerfed" as the cleric seems to be in this variant, it's game-breakingly overpowered when you look at the big picture. Better to keep the cleric as it is in core, and address the little things that add up to "omg op clerics" before going after the class itself.

And one more thing. Forgotten Realms is not core either - core does not mandate that clerics have a patron deity; so the alignment fluff only applies to clerics that have gods. It also makes the game less interesting - political intrigue and roleplaying opportunity can be had if the good and evil clerics of a Lawful Neutral god (at least, one that doesn't have bias against good or evil,) or the lawful and chaotic clerics of a Neutral Good power, come into conflict (and eventually schism) over differing interpretations of the ethos.

Jane_Smith
2009-04-11, 12:46 AM
My opinions on divine metamagic and other divine feats are not reliment to this discussion. If i dislike them, thats my choice for my own personal likes and dislikes. "Short sighted" or not. Did i ban divine feats? No.

My reason for nerfing them is simple; Priests. Are. Not. CRUSADERS. They are NOT knights of their gods, they are clerics, they are priests. They spend their times preying and in the service of their gods, and as such, they should reflect their gods.

Example - Im allowing the War domain to give cleric's proficiency with their deities favored weapon, weapon focus with that weapon, and proficiency with medium and heavy armor. Protection domain will give them proficiency with shields, including tower shields. You want a tank-like heavy priest? Then take War and Protection domains - at least then the theme "FITS". Unlike say, a priestess of sune with the domains of good and charm, who just starts out knowing how to wear heavy nd bulky armor and shields... that just doesnt seem to click, now does it?

I might ease up the alignment restrictions back to the original "within one step", however, keep in mind FANTASY RELIGION IS NOT LIKE REAL LIFE RELIGION. In places like faerun, etc, gods -walk- the earth and THEY pick who possesses their powers. They can be fickle, possessive, territorial, and typically, if a fight breaks out over "which dogma is truer", then the god is their to settle the dispute. So you dont see "Christianity, Catholicism, etc" for a single deity. If someone has a question about the validity of the religion or the specifics of the tenants... unlike real world, they are not blind, they have an actual higher being to speak to them.

Also note that priests are not your common beliver or follower; while anyone can prey, beleive, and worship a god, a priest is the manifestation of the deities will on earth, and take that faith to unbeleivable heights. It should also reflect the priest is not just some holy person who preys for magic, they carry the will of gods on their shoulders...



Anyway, not really in the mood for a religious debate. Ahem.

As for the infinite divine power, etc spells.. yes, I can see that as an issue. I might just have to copy down stanzzy's 'list' of spells you can take as a invocation as the original idea had. Then again, I feel the list is a bit limited in choice, especially if the player finds a non-threatening spell in a splatbook to add as an invocation.

I still dont think the cleric needs more spells per day considering the invocations. With a max of 4 a day of each spell level by 20th level, not considering high-wisdom bonus spells. I might consider just ripping out invocations altogether and making the spells per ay normal like core...

Nomad Pangolin
2009-04-11, 01:42 AM
My opinions on divine metamagic and other divine feats are not reliment to this discussion. If i dislike them, thats my choice for my own personal likes and dislikes. "Short sighted" or not. Did i ban divine feats? No.
You made it relevant yourself, by saying:


The cleric needed a "SERIOUS FRIGGIN NERF". Horribly. The cleric has so many tricks up their sleeves its pitiful.
Example, divine metamagic, divine feats, etc, a prestige class that gives it free maximized heals.. i mean, common. They have spells that increase their size, damage reduction, strength/constitution, AND base attack bonus to good in -ONE- spell, maybe two!
Thus, you are rebalancing a core class based on splat cheese and prestige classes, an act made of equal parts head-scratching and juffo-wup.


My reason for nerfing them is simple; Priests. Are. Not. CRUSADERS. They are NOT knights of their gods, they are clerics, they are priests. They spend their times preying and in the service of their gods, and as such, they should reflect their gods.

Priests are not crusaders, you are correct. D&D clerics, however, ARE crusaders, templars, hospitallers, military chaplains - more Archbishop Turpin than Saint Francis.


Example - Im allowing the War domain to give cleric's proficiency with their deities favored weapon, weapon focus with that weapon, and proficiency with medium and heavy armor. Protection domain will give them proficiency with shields, including tower shields. You want a tank-like heavy priest? Then take War and Protection domains - at least then the theme "FITS". Unlike say, a priestess of sune with the domains of good and charm, who just starts out knowing how to wear heavy nd bulky armor and shields... that just doesnt seem to click, now does it?

From what I remember of the ethos of Sune, it absolutely does click. The Sunite ethos is sanctioned vanity by another name, and priestesses can have their careers derailed by physical scars. So when pressed into battle, they either go no armour + the best magical protection available, or they go for heavy armour that would make a Cavalier drool with envy.

But a priestess of Eldath or Mielikki... different story. And ultimately, what it sounds like is that you want to toss the 3x notion of "standard cleric plus domains" and revert to 2x "specialty priest" setups as in the FR books.

(And yes, the invocations need to be tossed. Even infinite cure light wounds is game-breaking - D&D's game balance is not based on having easy access to MMO-style heal-spamming. Wands of cure are available but cost treasure and experience... and not infinite-use.)

Jane_Smith
2009-04-11, 02:08 AM
Ok, im thinking... toss the invocations, keep the spells per day as is, and give them these at 1st, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th level...

Hands of the Deity (Su): At first level, the priest can channel the energy of their patrons threw their fingertips. By spending a Turn or Rebuke Undead attempt per day as a swift action, a priest can imbue himself with a store of positive or negative energy, determined by his ability to turn (positive energy) or rebuke (negative energy) undead. For an hour, a priest gains a number of healing or damage points equal to his priest level x Charisma modifier. As a melee touch attack, the priest can discharge this built up energy on a creature. The priest can only discharge a number of healing or damage points equal to twice his total Priest level in a single touch attack, but otherwise may divide these points in any way during the hour. Positive energy used in this way restores the hit points to the target touched, while damaging the undead. Undead damage by this ability must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the priests level + Cha modifier) for half damage. Negative energy damage's living targets touched in the same way that positive hurts the undead, and allows a will save for half damage, and heals the undead. At the end of the hour, if any healing or damage points remain, the priest instantly heals for that remaining number (maximum to twice his level). If the priest becomes unconscious or dies during this duration, all points are lost.

Eyes of the Deity (Su): At 4th level, the priest can spend a turn or rebuke undead attempt per day as a swift action to gain the ability to see the essence of creatures around him. For an hour, the priest gains the ability to Detect Chaos, Detect Evil, Detect Good, Detect Law, and Detect Magic at will with a caster level equal to his priest level. During this time, the priest's eyes glow from an inner light in a color appropriate to the priest's faith, shedding light as a torch in a cone in front of the priest.

Heart of the Deity (Su): At 8th level, the priest can spend a turn or rebuke undead attempt per day as a swift action to gain immunity to all fear effects, magical or otherwise for an hour. During this time, he gains a +4 divine bonus on Will saving throws against enchantment spells and effects and you gain a +4 divine bonus on saves or rolls made to resist fatigue and exhaustion.

Union of the Deity (Su): At 12th level, the priest can temporary become a magical creature by spending a turn or rebuke undead attempt per day as a swift action. He gains the outsider (native) type, and gains all traits associated with that type for one hour. Additionally, he gains damage reduction equal to his Charisma modifier, bypassed by magical weapons, for the duration of this ability.

Body of the Deity (Su): At 16th level, the priest can spend a turn or rebuke attempt per day as a swift action to gain immunity to disease and poison, even magical, for an hour. During this time, he also gains a +4 divine bonus on saves or rolls made to resist ability damage, ability drain and negative levels.

Soul of the Deity (Su): At 20th level, the priest can spend a turn or rebuke attempt per day as a swift action to gain spell resistance for an hour. His spell resistance equals his class level + 10 + his Charisma modifier. During this time, the priest gains a +4 divine bonus on all saves or rolls against death effects.

Cieyrin
2009-04-11, 10:49 AM
Interesting, essentially built-in Divine feats. I have a question about the stackability of these, though: Can you only have one of these up at a time or could I burn 6 turn attempts to power myself for the next hour or so?

For Eyes of the Deity, I wouldn't necessarily believe that all clerics should necessarily be able to detect all alignments, probably the opposite of their alignment, so the LG Priest can Detect Evil, Chaos and Magic while the CN Priest can Detect Evil, Good, Law and Magic.

For Body of the Deity, I think the DR as stated is a bit weak, as everybody and their brother has or has access to magical weaponry. Making the DR be pierced by the opposite of their alignment (or their deity's alignment) would be more in line, so the LG Priest would generate DR Cha Mod/Evil or Chaos and the CN Priest would have DR Cha Mod/Law. It makes the DR a little more meaningful to have this way and I've always found, at least in the case of clerics, that divine magic seems to be more alignment-based.

Other than that, I haven't any issues. Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.