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View Full Version : Where is the love of Jim Butcher? - A Turn Coat thread.



Thrud
2009-04-10, 01:08 AM
I can't believe that there are no active Dresden Files threads here talking about the new book. After all it goes all SORTS of places we have never seen before, as well as causing a dramatic change in the Wizard Hierarchy AND creating a seriously nasty critter as one of the main mystical badguys.

I imagine any discussions might get spoilery, so if you haven't read it yet be very careful reading this thread.

So, anyone want to talk about it?

Or am I simply dumb and missed the thread?

Krrth
2009-04-10, 10:33 AM
I can't believe that there are no active Dresden Files threads here talking about the new book. After all it goes all SORTS of places we have never seen before, as well as causing a dramatic change in the Wizard Hierarchy AND creating a seriously nasty critter as one of the main mystical badguys.

I imagine any discussions might get spoilery, so if you haven't read it yet be very careful reading this thread.

So, anyone want to talk about it?

Or am I simply dumb and missed the thread?

I don't think it's missing the thread so much as people tend to just go to the Jim Butcher boards to discuss the books.

Thrud
2009-04-10, 05:04 PM
Fair enough. Guess I'll go there then.

Krrth
2009-04-13, 09:00 AM
Don't get me wrong, I love the book and will happily discuss it.

MeklorIlavator
2009-04-15, 12:46 AM
Same. I was primarily waiting till I had gotten/read the book. And, may I say, Holy Crap! This just....just wow. I think the real kickoff started when we learned how Morgan took out the last skinwalker who was after him. Really, I said after finishing the last one that I felt Butcher was starting to have trouble topping himself. I was wrong, so very wrong.

Satyr
2009-04-15, 03:13 AM
I have to admit that I haven't read Turncoat yet, but I found that the need of "topping himself" in every new book slowly ruins the Dresden Files series. The characters are still great, and the books are an easy and fun read, but at least since Lash "killed herself", Harry is slowly degenerating into Mary Sue territory.

Thrud
2009-04-15, 04:26 AM
Gotta disagree. I think it has been getting better and better. However, I also don't think Lash is necessarily completely gone. I'm not gonna spoiler the next bit, since it is actually a very, very minor spoiler for the book. It is just that Harry is having terrible headaches throughout the whole book. And we now know that Wizards live so long because the heal perfectly from injuries. Their healing isn't particularly fast, but it does happen, which is why he is slowly regaining full use of his hand when it was originally burned to a useless claw.

So the thing to think about here is that if Wizards eventually heal from any wound, wouldn't that include brain damage? Which means that the sections of his brain that were burned out by Lash taking the load onto herself to save Harry are probably healing. Thus the terrible headaches he is suffering from. I am thinking that in the not too distant future we may see her return. Then again maybe not, since the whole area was burned out, so maybe the pain is just that section of his brain regrowing. But that might be interesting if he regains the use of Hellfire, especially now that he also has Soulfire. That might make a weird combination, the essence of Destruction and the essence of Creation all in the same wizard's hands. . .

Anyway, I heartily recommend Turn Coat, it is one of the best in a while. SO much happens in this book that it literally boggles the mind.

And I don't think he is topping himself needlessly. This is a character growing readily in power as he is tested almost to the breaking point over and over again as he keeps facing very tough foes. So he gets stronger, and attracts nastier things to himself. And throughout the new book he is referred to several times as the strongest wizard of his generation.

I don't think he is 'topping himself' each book so much as showing a natural progression of power, a la D&D.

Coidzor
2009-04-15, 04:48 AM
I had to run out of his book signing today due to the huge line of people there... And the fact that since my brother didn't show up with the complete series (my dad had just recently bought Turn Coat but all the others were with my brother as a set) my dad was kinda demoralized on the whole thing and didn't feel like waiting a good hour or two to get it signed(since he got it online preorder rather than from the store the signing was at, it would've been even longer).

So far my dad and bro love 'em, but, well, I haven't really gotten a chance to so much as crack one open due to the fact the set in the family is in another city from me.

Thrud
2009-04-15, 05:23 AM
I had to run out of his book signing today due to the huge line of people there... And the fact that since my brother didn't show up with the complete series (my dad had just recently bought Turn Coat but all the others were with my brother as a set) my dad was kinda demoralized on the whole thing and didn't feel like waiting a good hour or two to get it signed(since he got it online preorder rather than from the store the signing was at, it would've been even longer).

So far my dad and bro love 'em, but, well, I haven't really gotten a chance to so much as crack one open due to the fact the set in the family is in another city from me.

They are well worth it. They are probably my favorite brain candy series out there. (That is to say that they are excellent works of urban fantasy, and may actually be the books to start the urban fantasy craze, but they shouldn't be taken to be great literature.) They are just excellent fun reads. I would recommend investing in your own copies.

MeklorIlavator
2009-04-15, 08:06 AM
Harry is slowly degenerating into Mary Sue territory.

To quote Inigo Montoya, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." I really can't see how Harry could be considered a Mary Sue at this point, as this would imply that his victories come cheaply(they don't), he easily outstrips other primary characters in terms of power/insight/whatever(he doesn't), or that almost everyone else fawns over him. Only this last one makes any sense, and that only because many major characters do pay attention to him, but that's because he's done some very impressive things, and is considered one of the most powerful wizards of his generation. Of course, many of these characters are paying attention so that they can kill him, so I think that evens it out.

Krrth
2009-04-15, 09:09 AM
I also think he is in no danger of becoming a marty stu. Considering the injuries and the fights he's been in....no, he's doing just fine.


Almost loosing an eye, getting his but handed to him by the Skinwalker....and watching injun joe beat the living daylights out of said skinwalker....priceless. Not to mention seeing the senior council in action....

Satyr
2009-04-15, 09:11 AM
I like the books, and I like the characters, especially Harry himself. But I found it less satisfying how the significant drawbacks the protagonist collected during the course of the books - the outcast status, the crippled hand, Sash - were taken back and disappeared more or less, to make place for more awesomeness. I really think that the regeneration of the injuries and especially the elimination of Sash were steps that made the protagonist less interesting and multi-facetted, which is always a bad choice, and it probably gets worse when interesting character aspects are eliminated to make place for more power.
Weaknesses make characters interesting, because every weakness installs a chalenge and a motivation. In many ways, the introduction of the weaknesses in combination with the backpaddling is worse than the maintainance of the status quo in the first place, because it makes obvious how much potential could have existed before it is destroyed again.

Thrud
2009-04-15, 09:45 AM
I like the books, and I like the characters, especially Harry himself. But I found it less satisfying how the significant drawbacks the protagonist collected during the course of the books - the outcast status, the crippled hand, Sash - were taken back and disappeared more or less, to make place for more awesomeness. I really think that the regeneration of the injuries and especially the elimination of Sash were steps that made the protagonist less interesting and multi-facetted, which is always a bad choice, and it probably gets worse when interesting character aspects are eliminated to make place for more power.
Weaknesses make characters interesting, because every weakness installs a chalenge and a motivation. In many ways, the introduction of the weaknesses in combination with the backpaddling is worse than the maintainance of the status quo in the first place, because it makes obvious how much potential could have existed before it is destroyed again.

It's not like he is just overcoming defects willy nilly. They don't just disappear over night. It takes serious work on his part (or time in the case of regeneration) and he suffers the consequences for quite some time. As for Lash disappearing, well, that in a way goes on to show his greatest strength, his strength of will and morality so strong that it was able to win over an aspect of a fallen angel.

But his greatest strength is in a way also his greatest flaw. He sees himself as a knight riding to the rescue on a white charger and he will never compromise in doing the right thing, even at great personal cost to himself, over and over. All the other 'flaws' that he picks up are secondary and therefor transitory. It doesn't matter that he will eventually heal from any wound perfectly. It still takes the amount of time it would take anyone else to heal, he will just have a better final result. It doesn't matter that Lash is gone because invariably the fallen angels will get to him again because of who he is. And it really doesn't matter that his hand is healing because that was totally secondary to his abilities as a wizard.

He grows in power because at heart any long series of books MUST have the main character growing in skill and power or it would just be dumb. People learn by doing. If Dresden wasn't able to overcome greater and greater foes as the books progressed then we would be sitting here wondering why the character never evolves.

And that is especially hard considering that this is a website dedicated basically to D&D, a game that is pretty much designed around characters getting more and more powerful over time as they learn, and thus being able to take on greater and greater foes.

Just a thought.

Krrth
2009-04-15, 10:40 AM
Don't forget every book takes place approximately a six months to a year after the previous book. That's a lot of time to shore up weaknesses and injuries.

Rutskarn
2009-04-15, 11:44 AM
Well, got it last afternoon.

Aaand finished it last afternoon.

Well, that was awesome. When's the next one come out?

Cristo Meyers
2009-04-15, 11:54 AM
Crap...another one? I only just got Small Favor and have a small hillock of other books to read as well!

Ah well, I guess I've got about a year between now and when it comes out on paperback. I love these books, but you've got to be an incredible author for me to shell out $30+ for hardcover.

Has anyone checked out the graphic novels they've put out?

Krrth
2009-04-15, 12:31 PM
Crap...another one? I only just got Small Favor and have a small hillock of other books to read as well!

Ah well, I guess I've got about a year between now and when it comes out on paperback. I love these books, but you've got to be an incredible author for me to shell out $30+ for hardcover.

Has anyone checked out the graphic novels they've put out?

Yeah, he puts books in a series out about once a year. The next (and last) book in the furies series should be out in November.

If you want a taste of Turn Coat, you can read the first five chapters on Jim-Butcher.com

Cristo Meyers
2009-04-15, 12:46 PM
Yeah, he puts books in a series out about once a year. The next (and last) book in the furies series should be out in November.

If you want a taste of Turn Coat, you can read the first five chapters on Jim-Butcher.com

That'd make the wait worse :smalltongue:

I'll just have to console myself with Small Favor, Neverwhere, Good Omens, Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Ill Wind, and The Gun Seller...

...I'm sure I've forgotten one in there somewhere...

Krrth
2009-04-15, 12:53 PM
That'd make the wait worse :smalltongue:

I'll just have to console myself with Small Favor, Neverwhere, Good Omens, Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Ill Wind, and The Gun Seller...

...I'm sure I've forgotten one in there somewhere...

Ah well, I tried! I'll leave you with this though.....Morgan does not play nice.

Thrud
2009-04-15, 12:55 PM
Crap...another one? I only just got Small Favor and have a small hillock of other books to read as well!

Ah well, I guess I've got about a year between now and when it comes out on paperback. I love these books, but you've got to be an incredible author for me to shell out $30+ for hardcover.

Has anyone checked out the graphic novels they've put out?

Hey, go to most big bookstores now and it will still be 30% off. (Borders definately, Barnes and Noble's probably roughly the same amount) which for me brought the cost down to about $19 after tax. But new hardcovers don't tend to stay on that much of a discount for long so you have to pick em up quickly.

As for the graphic novels, I bought the comics individually(which basically means that yes, I have checked out the graphic novel in a way). The first set was a stand alone story (basically a short story) that was written specifically for the comic. After that, they are now working on turning Storm Front into a comic. It is pretty cool too.

Cristo Meyers
2009-04-15, 12:58 PM
Hey, go to most big bookstores now and it will still be 30% off. (Borders definately, Barnes and Noble's probably roughly the same amount) which for me brought the cost down to about $19 after tax. But new hardcovers don't tend to stay on that much of a discount for long so you have to pick em up quickly.

Still too much for me. I get the same book for $7.50 (well, $10 now) on paperback. I just have to wait.

...of course, that still doesn't make it easy...

Krrth
2009-04-15, 01:11 PM
Still too much for me. I get the same book for $7.50 (well, $10 now) on paperback. I just have to wait.

...of course, that still doesn't make it easy...

No, not at all. I really felt bad for a friend of mine who went to buy a copy and found it was sold out.

Thrud
2009-04-15, 01:54 PM
Still too much for me. I get the same book for $7.50 (well, $10 now) on paperback. I just have to wait.

...of course, that still doesn't make it easy...

Oh well, there is always the library. Unfortunately at this point you will probably be so low down on the list that you wouldn't be able to get it until about the same time it comes out in paperback.

Alternately find someone who is as big a nerd as me and borrow it.

:smallbiggrin:

Satyr
2009-04-16, 06:00 AM
He grows in power because at heart any long series of books MUST have the main character growing in skill and power or it would just be dumb.

That is both completely wrong and also an evidence of a very limited perspective on narration that I am neither willing or able to share. There is no obligation or automatism for powercreep, but sometimes there can be a plausible explanation, or, as in the case of the Dresden Files, enough good stuff to compensate this.


And that is especially hard considering that this is a website dedicated basically to D&D, a game that is pretty much designed around characters getting more and more powerful over time as they learn, and thus being able to take on greater and greater foes.

And has this any connection to the books? Any at all? No. This isn't even an arguement, but even as a sidenote, it is completely irrelevant for the discussion of the book.

Thrud
2009-04-16, 12:31 PM
That is both completely wrong and also an evidence of a very limited perspective on narration that I am neither willing or able to share. There is no obligation or automatism for powercreep, but sometimes there can be a plausible explanation, or, as in the case of the Dresden Files, enough good stuff to compensate this.

Completely as an aside to the thread here, but you honestly want to tell me that in a series of books that has now reached 11 books long, that you don't think the characters basic level of abilities should have changed at all? In the very first book he talks about how he is considered one of the most powerful wizards in the world, but that compared to wizards with over 100 years of experience he is considered little more than a babe in the woods. Now he has essentially been in a constant state of war for over 3 years and has been honing the control of his huge power to levels that he had previously never even dreamed of.

That doesn't seem the slightest bit unreasonable to me.

He isn't so much gaining in power, as he is gaining skill at utilizing that power. But honestly, even if he were gaining in sheer power, how could that be considered a bad thing? If you take a soldier fresh out of boot camp and drop him in afghanistan for 3 years I guarantee that if he survives he will have acquired skills that he did not possess at the beginning of his deployment. This is a necessary fact of living. We get better by doing. For a wizard 'getting better' could easily be considered gaining 'power', depending on how the magic system is set up.

Any author who does not acknowledge this fact when the character has passed through 5 to 10 years of real time is committing the most egregious of errors, comparable to that committed by Star Trek and Star Trek TNG, where each episode is considered whole unto itself and seldom has any influence on other episodes.


And has this any connection to the books? Any at all? No. This isn't even an arguement, but even as a sidenote, it is completely irrelevant for the discussion of the book.

Yeah, this was an aside at the end mentioning how on a website dedicated to a game that basically starts characters off as worthless peons and eventually assumes that they will become gods, I found it amusing that you didn't like power levels increasing. It wasn't really a serious argument, but that is the problem with typing. Nuances of communication don't really come through at all. Anyway, feel free to ignore the D&D inspired comment, it was supposed to be a kind of tongue in cheek aside.

Anyway, this is a pretty interesting conversation, but does kinda derain the thread a bit. Do you want to continue it in another thread? I could start up a thread discussing literary conventions in fantasy series and it seems like we could have a pretty interesting conversation there.

Satyr
2009-04-16, 01:21 PM
Completely as an aside to the thread here, but you honestly want to tell me that in a series of books that has now reached 11 books long, that you don't think the characters basic level of abilities should have changed at all?

Wait. Character development - which may be necessary - is not the same thing as a constant power boost. Character development can consist both out of an increase of abilities as well as a decrease. There is no obligation for any direction, the only obligation of character development is that characters should constantly grow more interesting. I haven't a problem with Harry growing more confident and talented with his skills - the problem I have are the redigation of weaknesses which appeared in the plot and which were
actually quite good story telling - for the definition of a character weaknesses are at least as important as strengths and perhaps more important. The Sash arc is therefore doubly problematic for me, because I felt that the end of it actually made the character of Harry less interesting in himself and created an impression of invulnerability, when even something as dangerous as Sash has no deeper impact on it (and can be beaten by the power of friendship...).

I got the new book and started reading and I must say, despite of all problems I migth have, it is a great read, and I will probably will mot sleep that much tonight.


Anyway, this is a pretty interesting conversation, but does kinda derain the thread a bit. Do you want to continue it in another thread? I could start up a thread discussing literary conventions in fantasy series and it seems like we could have a pretty interesting conversation there.

We are discussing one specific work within one thread. I would eagerly participate in a discussion about fantasy literature conventions and standards, but I have no idea how to start such a discussion.

Thrud
2009-04-16, 01:34 PM
We are discussing one specific work within one thread. I would eagerly participate in a discussion about fantasy literature conventions and standards, but I have no idea how to start such a discussion.

I figure the best way is just start up a thread to carry on this conversation and see where it goes.

estradling
2009-04-16, 03:57 PM
Wile E Coyote Suuuper Genius

Krrth
2009-04-17, 08:43 AM
Let's be fair: It's been stated in several books now that Dresdans (innate) power hasn't really increased, but that his ability to use that power has.

He has been offered power by several outside sources (Fae, Heaven, Hell), but that's about par for the course.

bladedSmoke
2009-04-19, 05:06 PM
Wait. Character development - which may be necessary - is not the same thing as a constant power boost.

But it can be. Does Dresden's 'power boost,' as you call it, fit in with the books' internal logic? Yes. Does it make sense for it to occur? Yes. Does it make the books more entertaining than otherwise? Hell yes. It seems to me that your argument that Dresden should be getting weaker would leave us with him either a) facing comparatively weaker challenges, which would be dull, or b) facing stronger challenges (as he does in the books as they're written at the moment) and achieving victory despite his weakness, which would be frankly nonsensical. Please make note of the fact that Dresden is, in the books, always the underdog anyway. If he was even weaker, him being able to beat a skinwalker would make him much much more of a Mary Sue.


The Sash arc is therefore doubly problematic for me, because I felt that the end of it actually made the character of Harry less interesting in himself and created an impression of invulnerability, when even something as dangerous as Sash has no deeper impact on it (and can be beaten by the power of friendship...).

Firstly, it's Lash, and secondly, I think that in a series which plans on running as long as Butcher wants it to (23 books, I think he has planned), having Lash always there as a constant presence in Harry's head would get, frankly, freaking boring. Every book she'd offer him a temptation. Every book he'd turn her down (he'd do this because, firstly, it's just what he'd do, and secondly your aversion to him getting more powerful means you, Satyr, wouldn't want him to become suddenly godly like that :smalltongue:). Not only that, but when you say Lash's death had no impact on Dresden, I think you're ignoring the, um, brain damage? And also, y'know, emotional trauma, which apparently you haven't considered - there's clear signs in Turn Coat that all he's been through is sending Dresden down a dark path, and his magical power is increasingly offset by growing emotional hurt - which you have completely failed to consider in your argument and yet which, I think, is far more debilitating and also character-developing than the fact he's getting bloody good at magic.

Frankly, watching Dresden grow into his power is my favourite thing about this series. :smallamused:

Weirdlet
2009-04-19, 06:34 PM
Frankly, watching Dresden grow into his power is my favourite thing about this series.

Agreed- I like watching him get cannier and, well- older isn't quite the word, although he does feel like he's getting slowly wearier and more scarred, but less of the over-idealistic punk his elders think him. He knows more of what he's up against- and it's not making him any less scared, just more determined to hold the line as long as he can. And that often means learning new tricks with old methods, trying new things, and seeing what sticks.

I am wondering how low Harry's going to be brought before the end, though. It feels like things are on the verge of getting very, very bad, at least to me- it feels like in the process of sacrificing to aid others he's racking up debts with the universe that are going to come due in a very bad way. That's one of the (completely subjective and YMMV) things that keeps him from being anything like a Sue, in my eyes- you just know there are going to be consequences to his actions, more even than are apparent now, and the universe won't stop for it.

Lord of the Helms
2009-04-20, 11:41 PM
Frankly, watching Dresden grow into his power is my favourite thing about this series. :smallamused:

I actually think it's less him growing in power, and more him doing increasingly awesome things with his power. I rather like the various creative and epically cool uses he's found for magic (Ghost army summoning, motorcycle force lance jousting, a freaking superpowered undead T-Rex) and know I can be confident of Butcher regularly coming up with an awesome new magical buttkickery feat. Though sadly, post-Sue, I'm at a loss how he should actually ever top it at all. Not that Cannon Ball or Force Grip were bad, mind you, but such a creative use of necromancy is kinda hard to match.

I'm around halfway through the book now, and glad I avoided both spoilers and the preview chapters on th website. I like being surprised, and I am 100% certain that reading the first five chapters before I had the whole book in my hands, unable to read on, would have driven me mad. MAD! :smallbiggrin:

Err, anyway, really enjoying it. Morgan's still as much of an "enormous donkey at times" as ever. But hoboy, the skinwalker is major bad news. I really wonder how Harry will manage to get out of this one, short of coming up with a Summon Bigger Fish solution. :smalleek:

By the by: Turn Coat managed to interrupt my reading of both Cain's Last Stand and God-Emperor of Dune and my playing of Dawn of War II. That's right, not even Warhammer 40K's biggest badass (Cain, obviously, not the by compariosn only moderately badass Space Marines) laying the smack on Adolf Hitler can stand in the wake of my Dresden Files addiction admiration. :smallcool:

Dumbledore lives
2009-04-21, 12:39 AM
One of the things I was amazed with in this book is the ending. First of all I though it was over after the island, there was only about 30 pages left in the book and I figured it would just be concluding everything, but the twist truly amazed me. I was not expecting it at all. Awesome, awesome book.

leperkhaun
2009-04-21, 03:29 AM
I love the Dresden Files. Mostly i love Harry's humor and how he manages to come up with his plans. It's intreasting how many situations he would have ended up dead if it was not for the group of friends he has made.

Also anyone else love the quality of the paper for small favors?

Weirdlet
2009-04-21, 04:35 AM
It's intreasting how many situations he would have ended up dead if it was not for the group of friends he has made.


That's another neat thing. A lot of his power seems to come from the allies and contacts he makes.

Krrth
2009-04-21, 08:51 AM
Agreed- I like watching him get cannier and, well- older isn't quite the word, although he does feel like he's getting slowly wearier and more scarred, but less of the over-idealistic punk his elders think him. He knows more of what he's up against- and it's not making him any less scared, just more determined to hold the line as long as he can. And that often means learning new tricks with old methods, trying new things, and seeing what sticks.

I am wondering how low Harry's going to be brought before the end, though. It feels like things are on the verge of getting very, very bad, at least to me- it feels like in the process of sacrificing to aid others he's racking up debts with the universe that are going to come due in a very bad way. That's one of the (completely subjective and YMMV) things that keeps him from being anything like a Sue, in my eyes- you just know there are going to be consequences to his actions, more even than are apparent now, and the universe won't stop for it.

Let's put it to you this way: Mr Butcher has stated that one of the things he keeps in mind while writing the series is "How can I make things worse for Harry, without killing him?"

Lord of the Helms
2009-04-22, 03:12 AM
Well, he certainly went a long way for that in Turn Coat. Bad results almost all around.



Hoboy, the skinwalker is major bad news. I really wonder how Harry will manage to get out of this one, short of coming up with a Summon Bigger Fish solution. :smalleek:


Hehe, funny to see I was right and yet didn't see the exact event coming, even though I probably should have. Summon Bigger Shapeshifter for the win.

So, thoughts on finishing the book, other than "Dang, nasty stuff for Harry and the good guys":
The island ritual was a very cool thing, and I wonder where it takes us later on. Harry now certainly has one hell of a home arena for fights. Also, I'm interested in the nature of the ley line well and Demonreach.
Luccio, alas, was not meant to last, but ended less badly than it could have. Harry/Murphy looks more and more likely to go into romantic territory, though.
Nice to see more of the Senior Council's badassness in action - both a more tangible idea of Ebenezer's face-to-face combat skills, and a good idea of what Listens-to-Wind can do, where previously he was only known for his impressive medical and healing skills. The most badass fight of the book, and quite appropriate, a Magical First Nations Guy slugging it out with a Magical First Nations Nightmare Monster. Interestingly, his shtick was more magical defense and rapid-fire shapeshifting than offensive blasting, though maybe that was just to counter the skinwalker specifically. Perhaps Injun Joe wasn't up to hurting it with blasty force, but it does speak volumes that he'd engage a shapeshifter in its own discipline (and win).
Thomas: :smallfrown: . Just :smallfrown:
Bad guys: Fairly impressive, heterogeneous and unlikely combination. White Council mind-magicking traitor, renegade White Court Vamp, thousands-of-years-old magical First Nations shapeshifting Monster, and a Summoning-Sorcerer. I actually rather liked Binder and the way he went out, professional, rational and savvy enough not to risk his life. Still wonder how the Skinwalker figured into the group. It was obviously not well-connected to the other forces on the island since they were seemingly unaware of the things it knew, but at the same time definitely had a stake in the matter beyond "eating a wizard" since it went after Morgan specifically when it could have just devoured Harry (more raw power) and Luccio (more experience and probably more skill) at the Raith mansion.
Morgan got a nice way to go out. Plus, he nuked a Skinwalker fifty years ago. Pwnage.
Also, I like that Butcher adresses a few things that have not been 100% clear before and had come up a few times as fan questions (see: Vampire love burn question). And laughed at him acknowledging the horrific German in "Die Lied der Erlking" (for those who don't know, of these words, precisely one is correct) with a little side joke.

Lastly: New York Times #1 Bestseller! Well-deserved, nice to see Dresden Files doing so well.

Thrud
2009-04-22, 10:03 PM
Harry/Murphy looks more and more likely to go into romantic territory, though

Yes, I am of mixed feelings about this. It could be interesting, but could also destroy the dynamic between them. After all look what happened on Moonlighting. Dunno what would happen in the event of a relationship developing between them. Plus he has the whole 'die alone' death curse that was put on him.

I belive that it will come down to a relationship between them and then shortly after Murphy will die/be turned into a bad guy somehow/be irretrievably lost to some uber-being.

After all that is one more logical progression in the 'How bad can we make it for Harry without actually killing him?' series of events. For him to finally hook up with Murphy, find out just how perfect they are for each other, then lose her.

Might be a bit cliched, but just beause it is a cliche doesn't make it any less powerful in this case.

Lord Seth
2009-04-22, 11:25 PM
Same. I was primarily waiting till I had gotten/read the book. And, may I say, Holy Crap! This just....just wow. I think the real kickoff started when we learned how Morgan took out the last skinwalker who was after him. Really, I said after finishing the last one that I felt Butcher was starting to have trouble topping himself. I was wrong, so very wrong.Oh yeah, that one was awesome.

I do think the first page of Turn Coat was one of the best ways I have ever seen to start a book.

Kane
2009-04-25, 09:20 PM
I loved the book. My mother swiped my copy first, so I got my brother to send me it as a text file, and read that. Included some spectacularly hilarious moments in the classic Dresden fashion. Notably, "You NUKED a skinwalker!?" and the full version of the quote I added to this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YanksWithTanks) tvtropes page.

One of the things I particularly like is the way Dresden keeps coming up with new things to do with magic, and the way he does his best to work with technology. (Carrying a gun, for instance.)

One of the things I'm constantly curious about is what would a soulgaze with Dresden look like? We see plenty with other people, but I'm still wondering what his looks like.

Weirdlet
2009-04-26, 02:11 AM
One of the things I'm constantly curious about is what would a soulgaze with Dresden look like? We see plenty with other people, but I'm still wondering what his looks like.

I know, right? It's one of those things that we get to wonder about, but given that we're always on Harry's side of the point-of-view, we'll never really get to know. But those who get to see are always a little discomfited, and that's an intriguing edge to the mystery- Harry's on the side of the angels, but he's also no paladin and he can and will fight dirty to filthy, as well as fighting some pretty strong temptations even through the desire to do good.

Lord of the Helms
2009-04-27, 12:09 AM
About the soulgaze thing, I remember from some Q&A or other on the Jim Butcher boards that a someone Harry soulgazed will tell about the experience in the next book. The most obvious candidate is Susan, since she's supposed to return (I'm guessing we'll finally have another Red Court - related book, they haven't shown up since the Ortega duel in Death Masks).