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AmberVael
2006-08-24, 02:24 PM
This is a little project that started in the Town, for the town. We are making a new PrC based on the upholding and defending of a faith, specifically the faith of Inari. Rather than being a crusader or wanderer, the Knight Defenders guard and uphold a single church.
Currently we are taking the Blackguard Prestige class and modifying it to suit our needs (namely by reversing its qualities.)
This thread is mainly for the originators of the idea to discuss and create the class. If you are not one of these people, please keep your posting on this thread ot a minimum. We will have an open PEACH thread later.

Fenric
2006-08-24, 02:39 PM
Here's a first mangling of the SRD style document. I already see a mistake or two...

http://homepage.mac.com/stocksdale_tx/KnightDefenderOfInari.html

Kantur
2006-08-24, 02:43 PM
I'm guessing Alignment's one of them...:P
Sorry, I shouldn't tease.

Fenric
2006-08-24, 02:46 PM
Yeah, that's a big one :)

Kantur
2006-08-24, 02:50 PM
Want to to copy paste any typos I spot? Or have you got them all?

AmberVael
2006-08-24, 02:52 PM
Man, do you know just how many of those prerequisites I don't meet?

Deadly
2006-08-24, 02:54 PM
Maybe change the req. feats to something more defence-ish. As they are now they feel very offensive which fits a blackguard but not really a defender.

Ilias meets every req. except Imp. Sunder

Fenric
2006-08-24, 02:55 PM
Other than the feats and perhaps the skills, not really...

Requirements end at "Class Skills". Yeah, the feats are a bit hostile. Suggestions?

AmberVael
2006-08-24, 02:55 PM
I meet none of the feat prerequisites, and I don't meet the knowledge requirement. That can be changed, however.

Deadly
2006-08-24, 02:58 PM
Combat Expertise, dodge, mobility are some quick suggestions

AmberVael
2006-08-24, 02:58 PM
Those would work very well.

Deadly
2006-08-24, 03:01 PM
Maybe imp. disarm instead of Imp. sunder. Would fit the concept very well.

AmberVael
2006-08-24, 03:03 PM
I understand why you said that, but I think dodge and mobility work better. It fits the fox style, and disarming does not really work as well.

Fenric
2006-08-24, 03:03 PM
Especially considering the generally high-dex of the foxes...

I like Mobility (Dodge is a prereq for that, so not both) and Combat Expertise.

How about Combat Reflexes?

AmberVael
2006-08-24, 03:05 PM
That might make sense.

Fenric
2006-08-24, 03:08 PM
And getting back to Kantur's question: *If you find typos, cut-n-paste it up here. *I have done one more alignment pass, so hopefully all of the good/evil things are right, now.

So I'm going to make the feats:

Mobility
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes

Deadly
2006-08-24, 03:09 PM
Yes, those feats sounds good to me.

Kantur
2006-08-24, 03:12 PM
Wow, even I have those feats ;)
And I've met Myobi and Myobu...Can I be one? :P

AmberVael
2006-08-24, 03:13 PM
Are you good? I thought you were neutral.

Fenric
2006-08-24, 03:14 PM
Next Section: Class Skills

"Craft" is just weird, so is "Profession"
"Ride" is a bit off for a class that doesn't go anywhere.
"Intimidate" is iffy, though I can see where it might be useful

Deadly
2006-08-24, 03:16 PM
I don't see Move Silently on that list. I think that one should be there. And Spot would fit too.

AmberVael
2006-08-24, 03:16 PM
No kidding. Knowledge religion still works well, and hide still fits. How about move silently?
((Simued))
And change intimidate to diplomacy, for convincing and converting.

Flabbicus
2006-08-24, 03:16 PM
What about Sense Motive? That seems appropriate for people who have to protect temples, sensing the trustworthiness and how or when others have hidden motives.

Kantur
2006-08-24, 03:17 PM
I'm close enough to Good that if I declared it, I'd probably qualify but be bordering very close to Neutral...I was also partly trying to avoid the whole 'Completly different from tradition' like a certain Drow...

Is Intimidate really in the style? Maybe more guard-like ones...Listen, Sense Motive, that kind of skill?

Exachix
2006-08-24, 03:26 PM
And what about Fox's Cunning in spells!

Fenric
2006-08-24, 03:27 PM
Diplomacy is already there.

Let's drop: *Craft, Profession, Intimidate, and Ride in favor of Spot, Listen, Hide <already there: need something else>, and Sense Motive.

"Handle Animal" should be replaced with something, too.

AmberVael
2006-08-24, 03:29 PM
How about heal? And you forgot to add move silently.

Exachix
2006-08-24, 03:29 PM
Heal. (wait, got that)
Concentration (they cast spells don't they?)`

Fenric
2006-08-24, 03:32 PM
Concentration is already there.

Ok, here is the proposed list: still need one more

Concentration
Craft -> Spot
Diplomacy
Handle Animal -> Move Silently
Heal
Hide
Intimidate -> Listen
Knowledge (religion)
Profession -> Sense Motive
Ride -> ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

AmberVael
2006-08-24, 03:34 PM
Perhaps something pertaining to rice/fertility? I can't think of what it would be though.

Kantur
2006-08-24, 03:34 PM
I'd say Search or Tumble...
Tumble adds in a new defensive option, though search would complete the watching/guarding skills really...

Exachix
2006-08-24, 03:34 PM
Spellcraft? if they need to identify spells being cast.
Speak Langauge? No point enforcing if you can't understand what their saying.

Fenric
2006-08-24, 03:35 PM
Tumble, to keep with the high-dex theme? ( Kantur beat me to it :) )

Language is pointless with so many epic characters, though. *Many of us have permanent Tongues spells, or can cast it.

Flabbicus
2006-08-24, 03:40 PM
Perhaps something pertaining to rice/fertility? I can't think of what it would be though.

Knowledge(agriculture)?

Deadly
2006-08-24, 03:42 PM
Or just knowledge (nature) to be less specific

Exachix
2006-08-24, 03:45 PM
Here;s a question. Why does the Celetial Fox ability have rows for 1st and 3rd level if the knight only get's it at 5th?

Fenric
2006-08-24, 03:46 PM
'cause I copied it from the cleric table back in town :P

That needs to be fixed anyway, it doesn't make sense the way it is now

Kantur
2006-08-24, 03:53 PM
Mind me asking why the Inflict spells were taken? If Cure's acceptable for Blackguards, it seems reasonable, to me at least, for defenders to use harming spells to defend the temples, priests, people, etc...

Exachix
2006-08-24, 04:02 PM
Because Defenders of the faith would only really want to enter combat if no option was left. And that we like the flooring in the temples. They are supposed to reduce confilct, if they couse more damage does it really help?

AmberVael
2006-08-24, 04:04 PM
How can someone drive back intruders/invaders without offense? Defenders need weapons too.

Fenric
2006-08-24, 04:07 PM
It's an interesting point... the "inflict" spells are traditionally considered evil, so I removed them out of hand. It is an interesting point that the knights do have the duty in extreme cases to meet out damage and even death.

Perhaps it is a good idea to put them back... especially since the chaotic side of chaotic good says "whatever it takes".

Kantur
2006-08-24, 04:17 PM
Hmm, should they possibly be made proficient with Light and Medium armour and Shields (Not Tower Shields) if it's going for a high dexterity theme, instead of all armour and all shields?

Fenric
2006-08-24, 04:20 PM
Yeah, that's a good point, too. *"Light and Medium" replaces "All".
I've put the "inflicts" back, and set "Tumble" as the last skill.

Now, celestial fox powers? *The chart is wrong, starting at 1 the way it does. *The powers also don't make sense for the knights.

Kantur
2006-08-24, 04:25 PM
Well first thing would be to decide on a set-up for the chart, then balance it I think...
I'd probably say 5, 7, 9, 10
Gives scope for a decent set of abilitys, also makes 9th level look more tempting than just a stepping stone for tenth as well.
Or to keep it with 5 rows, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10 possibly...Though I could see equal merits for 5-7, 9, 10...

Exachix
2006-08-24, 04:33 PM
or, let him get the fox at level 3. (giving him more levels to get abilities.).

then have
3, 5, 7, 9, 10.

Fenric
2006-08-24, 04:37 PM
I like 5,7,9,10. *I'd think that, or all of them 5,6,7,8,9,10 .

I like Exachix's even better... sort of. *Starting at 4 instead of 3, to keep it mostly "every other level" until the last one. *4, 6, 8, 9, 10. (3 is rather crowded already )

It might be nice to put some of the spells that the knights don't have...

Hold Person, Holy Smite, Flame Strike... that sort of thing.

Kantur
2006-08-24, 04:41 PM
Hmm, I'd recommend Hold Monster over Hold Person if you went for it...What if an Outsider wanders along? ;)

Deadly
2006-08-24, 04:44 PM
Banishment could be handy as well.

Fenric
2006-08-24, 04:50 PM
Ok, so far I've got:

4 - Hold Monster
6 - <vacancy>
8 - Holy Smite
9 - Flame Strike
10 - Banishment

Suggestions for level 6?

Kantur
2006-08-24, 04:51 PM
True Seeing for Myobi/Myobu at Knight level 6 perhaps? (So probably around Character Level 12 if it's a fighter base to put it in perspective) It's likely from a 'If it were a real PrC' that a high proportion wouldn't be Priests, more followers of Inari, so wouldn't have Illusion countering spells/abilities...

((*Cough* no one said 7/8, honest...))

Fenric
2006-08-24, 04:55 PM
4 - Hold Monster
6 - True Seeing
8 - Holy Smite
9 - Flame Strike
10 - Banishment

How's this?

Deadly
2006-08-24, 04:56 PM
I like Daylight, I was briefly considering suggesting it myself

But True Seeing is good too

Kantur
2006-08-24, 04:57 PM
Looks good to me

Fenric
2006-08-24, 05:11 PM
Well then...

Proposed Final Version (http://homepage.mac.com/stocksdale_tx/KnightDefenderOfInari.html)

Deadly
2006-08-24, 05:16 PM
I think it looks good, except that most of the special abilities are concentrated in the first 5 levels, I would prefer them to be evened out over all 10 levels as much as possible.

martyboy74
2006-08-24, 05:17 PM
For the celestial fox, you may want to clarify whether it's the Knight's character level, or their Knight level.

Kantur
2006-08-24, 05:18 PM
A few typos, but looks great otherwise:

"Dispell Magic", should have one l, though I'm only being picky since it's linked to a non-existing page, I wouldn'tve spotted it otherwise...

"Celestial Fox
At fifth level, a Knight may summon..."

That's everything I can see that's dodgy or wrong...

Fenric
2006-08-24, 05:25 PM
Ok. *Suprious "l" is gone. *Foxes start at fourth level. *It is noted that fox HD is based on "Knight" level, not overall character level.

I know there's a concentration of stuff in the early levels, but it's that way for Blackguard and Paladin itself. *Some of them are necessary for the class and can't wait, others are so minor that it really wouldn't work to have it be the only thing (Aura of Good?)

It might be nice to add something at 8th level to fill that big gap.

Deadly
2006-08-24, 05:25 PM
Oh, and if we need to be picky, "Spot" needs to be moved to before "Tumble" in the list of class skills for it to be in the correct order. :)

Listen and Move Silently also needs to be moved

Kantur
2006-08-24, 05:29 PM
8th level...Bonus Feat would be an obvious one, though I'm too keen on it since it take it from nicely balanced to slightly over-powered...Skill Mastery for a class skill perhaps?

Fenric
2006-08-24, 05:46 PM
No, I don't think a bonus feat is a good idea, either.

What about something "useful but not tremendously so" like low-light vision?

Deadly
2006-08-24, 05:48 PM
Or it might be a very specific bonus feat, without the choice. Alertness would fit the concept and would not be overly useful.

Kantur
2006-08-24, 05:50 PM
I would've suggested a specific one, but I didn't want to start looking through them...

Low-light vision could be an interesting one...

martyboy74
2006-08-24, 05:51 PM
Or it might be a very specific bonus feat, without the choice. Alertness would fit the concept and would not be overly useful.
You could describe your senses as becoming more "fox-like".

Fenric
2006-08-24, 05:52 PM
That is another possibility. *Alertness is a good one.
Perhaps 8 and 9?

Edit:

I like the "you become more fox like".

6: Scent
8: Low-Light vision (Ex)
9: Alertness

Kantur
2006-08-24, 05:55 PM
For a more interesting name "Aspect of the Goddess"?

Deadly
2006-08-24, 05:56 PM
Yes, that's great. Could call it Fox Sense or something

Fenric
2006-08-24, 06:10 PM
I went with "Aspect of the Fox" and put the goddess granting part in the description.

Release Candidate 2 (http://homepage.mac.com/stocksdale_tx/KnightDefenderOfInari.html)

Deadly
2006-08-24, 06:14 PM
Just a thought, but perhaps the saves should be changed from high fortitude to high reflex.

Otherwise it looks good now. Atleast I can't spot anything else right now.

Fenric
2006-08-24, 06:17 PM
That's a good point. It should be a better reflex than fortitude, that's part of the point here - a DEX based class. I'll just switch the columns.

Kantur
2006-08-24, 06:18 PM
And if they're going from a fighter type class, Fortitude'll already be high anyway...Ahh, the poor will save, bane of so many classes...

[hr]

Hmm, am I the only one that thinks it looks odd like that? I think it's the combination of d10 hit dice and low Fortitude saves that looks so strange...

Fenric
2006-08-24, 06:32 PM
Maybe change that to d8, expecially considering the vaguely clerical nature of it and the fact that it's more DEX that STR/CON ?

Kantur
2006-08-24, 06:34 PM
I'm beginning to feel like a busybody :P

Hmm, it'd probably make it a tougher choice than Guardian of the Faith vs Fighter...

I'll let Planeshifter say something now to keep me from feeling to intrusive...

Fenric
2006-08-24, 06:35 PM
They're not supposed to be line-of-battle tanks. *And all the dexterity stuff is there to help keep them from getting hurt too much in the first place. *It could be argued that a bit of HP decrease is warranted for balance. *

Fighter doesn't get spells, and doesn't get to have Myobu trot out and Flame Strike the offending party :)

Deadly
2006-08-24, 06:37 PM
I think d8 fits better too

Kantur
2006-08-24, 06:38 PM
When you put it like that...It does sound like a reasonable move...

Fenric
2006-08-24, 06:46 PM
Well, that brings us to:

Release Candidate 3 (http://homepage.mac.com/stocksdale_tx/KnightDefenderOfInari.html)

Kantur
2006-08-24, 06:50 PM
Looks good to me.

Deadly
2006-08-24, 06:57 PM
Looks fine to me too.