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MeklorIlavator
2009-04-10, 07:35 PM
To start off, yes, I've read the guide to Being Batman, and Solo's guide to sorcerer's. The thing is, those assume that you're going to be a caster first, and include alot of save spells that might not always be good.

I really started thinking about this while thinking about a character for game on the boards, who, due the unique leveling system, end up at level 20 with full BaB and 15th level wizards casting, though his caster level would be 20. The only problem is that his Int isn't that high(he only can cast 8th level spells with a Int boosting item, and that's with 2 level boosts), and in general his melee abilities outstrip his casting. Therefore, his focus should be on Buffs/no save spells, but I'm not sure what to choose for the most part. Here's what I have so far, and your input would be appreciated, though. The only thing I'll ask is that if you could label none core spells(especially ones from the Spell Compendium, as I lack the book currently, though some people I know have it).

1st
Shield
Jump
Ray of Enfeeblement
Endure Elements
Enlarge Person
Lesser Orb of Sound(Compete Arcane)
Accelerated movement(Com Adv,142)

2nd
See Invisibility
Resist energy
Shatter
Mirror Image
WraithStrike(Comp Adv)
Listening Lorecall(Comp Adv)

3rd
Haste
Fly
Evard's Menacing tentecles(PHB2)
Dispel Magic
Keen Edge
Heroism

4th
Dimension Door
Evard's Black Tentecles
Fire Shield
Enervation

5th
Overland Flight
Wall of Force
Prying eyes

6th
Dispel Magic, Greater
Heroism, Greater

7th
Choking cobwebs(Com Mage, 99)
Retributive Enervation

8th
Mind Blank
Prismatic Wall

Keld Denar
2009-04-10, 07:48 PM
Pretty good, although my suggestion...

Bump Dim Door up to 5th as Teleport, and drop Prying Eyes.

4th level take Greater Mirror Image. Its an immediate action, which is amazing.

Drop Mirror Image now that you have Greater Mirror Image and pick up Whirling Blade. This is a no save ranged attack that you can execute as a melee attack, meaning you can Power Attack and use any other melee abilities you have with it.

Heroism is redundant with Greater Heroism. Drop it and take....crap...whats the spiderweb vest spell from Drow of the Underdark that gives you 1/3 CL Natural Armor? crap crap crap...

Other than that, you have a host of quality spells there.

EDIT:

Oh, and more SOLID FOGS if you can. No Save, SR:No, and 1001 uses!

Salt_Crow
2009-04-10, 07:53 PM
Polymorph Any Object into a Gold Dragon? At least a Polymorph spell in there somewhere would be ideal (and borderline broken).

arguskos
2009-04-10, 08:03 PM
Bump Dim Door up to 5th as Teleport, and drop Prying Eyes.
Sorry to disagree Keld, but Dim Door is too damn boss to ever NOT take. It's such a great "GTFO" spell that you should always have one in your pocket. I prepare it with any caster who can use it once a day, and it ALWAYS comes in handy. Besides, I'm not using a Teleport to move across a chasm that has an AMF on it. I'm using a Dim Door. :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2009-04-10, 08:07 PM
Sorry to disagree Keld, but Dim Door is too damn boss to ever NOT take. It's such a great "GTFO" spell that you should always have one in your pocket. I prepare it with any caster who can use it once a day, and it ALWAYS comes in handy. Besides, I'm not using a Teleport to move across a chasm that has an AMF on it. I'm using a Dim Door. :smallbiggrin:

Teleport can do everything Dim Door can do, and more. Read it...its exactly the same except for the range and the bit about knowing where you are going. If you are going somewhere within line of sight, its not an issue. Both spells have the same components and can take the same number of passengers. The only difference is for 1 level higher, you don't get your turn ended at the end of the spell, and there are WAY more better 4th level spells than 5th level spells. Dim Door is boss when you get it...because you get it at 7th level and its zomgamazing. By 10 or so, your 4th level slots are still very important, and your 5th level slots, much less so (IMO). Thus, upgrade from Dim Door to Teleport, since it has the same short range versitility, plus the long range option. WAY worth it.

arguskos
2009-04-10, 08:14 PM
Teleport can do everything Dim Door can do, and more. Read it...its exactly the same except for the range and the bit about knowing where you are going. If you are going somewhere within line of sight, its not an issue. Both spells have the same components and can take the same number of passengers. The only difference is for 1 level higher, you don't get your turn ended at the end of the spell, and there are WAY more better 4th level spells than 5th level spells. Dim Door is boss when you get it...because you get it at 7th level and its zomgamazing. By 10 or so, your 4th level slots are still very important, and your 5th level slots, much less so (IMO). Thus, upgrade from Dim Door to Teleport, since it has the same short range versitility, plus the long range option. WAY worth it.
I use Dimension Door for "OHSHI- RUNRUNRUNRUNRUN" moments, which happen in most games. Teleport... is a "goes back to town" sorta spell. I mean, don't get me wrong, I always take both, but to my mind one is good for short hops, the other for long-range journeys. It feels like using an Orb spell to swat a Balor: it's just overkill.

Also, remember you can always prep lower level slots in higher ones. :smallwink: More of your favorite spell. Solid Fog blanked out this sentence. Damn fog. :D

Keld Denar
2009-04-10, 08:25 PM
Well, it depends if he's going with a spells known mechanic. For a sorcerer or similar caster, I'd definitely take Teleport over Dim Door because it CAN be used for everything Dim Door can, and more. If you can just slap every buff known into your book, then there is no reason NOT to take both, but even as such, I'd still take Teleport over Dim Door and keep my 4th level spells in my 4th level slots.

If you don't have very many spells known, you are best not overlapping Dim Door and Teleport. You get the same use out of both, and Teleport is clearly better.

Its funny how most people don't realise that Teleport (and indeed, all spells from the Teleport subschool) only has verbal components. Dim Door is by no means unique in that fact!

MeklorIlavator
2009-04-10, 08:33 PM
I actually have greater mirror image, I don't know why I don't have it listed.

Yeah, teleport would be a good idea, but I'm a wizard, so I think I'll go with both.:smallbiggrin: In fact, why not take all three(including the greater version).

Solid fog is a good one. I think I was too focused on personal only spells: I missed Black Tentacles as well.

I'm staying away from polymorph, largely because, yeah it's that broken. The Logic Ninja didn't put it on his cheese list for nothing. This is also why celerity isn't on the list, by the way.

Whirling blades another good idea.

Also, this is meant for a build that should work from level 1/as a reference list for the more martial gishes, therefore redundancy is okay.

Chronos
2009-04-10, 09:44 PM
Not really good for a gish-type, but if you're in a party, Reduce Person is great for skillmonkeys. It's also not bad for a primary caster, if you're in a situation where you have time to buff before the battle.

ericgrau
2009-04-11, 12:19 AM
Don't put jump, see invisiblity, endure elements or shatter on your spell list unless you'll use them all the time. Pack them on emergency scrolls. Pick up some other misc. scrolls while you're at it. Mirror images are easy to eliminate if you pay attention to their AC in the spell description. And it has a short duration takes a round to cast. If you add up the stat "boosts", enlarge person is pretty meh unless you're grappling or tripping.

In general you have way too many short duration buffs that you won't have time to cast in combat. Grab quicken spell so you can get one off for free, keep just a few, and dump a bunch to get longer duration buffs instead. I'd get boots of speed for free action haste, instead of preparing the spell. Don't ever waste a round on a +X buff like greater heroism; the time lost will often set you back. Save just a couple non-quickened spells for when you have a buff round.

You can still use some area of effect spells with a save like glitterdust, or spells that trigger multiple saves like grease. Even with a low DC you can still get something out of them. With heighten spell you can boost them further. Wall of stone usually has no save (if placed righ), and your wall of force always has no save. You can use the detect spells to scout between combat; they penetrate some things like doors. Illusions can also have between combat use. They only trigger a save if interacted with. Rope trick or Mordenkain's Magnificient Mansion are often handy to have too. As is teleport for the whole party.

Polymorph isn't actually broken. If you change into a gold dragon for instance, it has way too many HD to let you get a good one with the spell. And you lose all your gear. In fact, since it takes a round to cast it often may not be worth it unless you have a buff round. It only becomes broken when you use broken 3rd party material like the war troll. And if you don't prep all the polymorphed form stats ahead of time then it becomes a book-keeping nightmare.

Here are some good long duration buffs & other useful spells:
feather fall (free action)
mage armor
greater magic weapon
shrink item: lasts days, carry a chunk of the PH equipment list using just 1/day.
protection from energy: just use adifferent energy type from your resist energy
greater invisibility
stoneskin
Antimagic field
(lesser) globe of invulnerability
Forcecage
protection from spells
moment of prescience

Chronos
2009-04-11, 11:49 AM
Don't ever waste a round on a +X buff like greater heroism; the time lost will often set you back. Remember, not all encounters are combats, so actions are not always the coin of the realm. That +4 from Heroism might also help the party rogue disable a particularly tricky trap, for instance, or help the bard haggle a better price from a merchant.