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View Full Version : Batman vs. Ozymandias: Battle of The Anti-Heroic Geniuses



Leliel
2009-04-10, 10:20 PM
Well...Look at the title.

Setup:

Ozymandias, somehow arriving in Gotham despite it being in a completely different universe, decides that the city needs some of his "help", which will, of course, destroy most of it.

Of course, Batman, being as intelligent or nearly so as Ozzie, figures out what he's planning to do and wisely attacks him before he has a chance to finish preperations, beacuse as we know, Adrian is genre savvy enough to immidiately start his plan after he's set it up.

So, in this battle of wits and might. who would win?

Berserk Monk
2009-04-10, 10:33 PM
First off, why do you think that Adrian's solution to everything is wipe out a city using a genetic monster? He only did that in Watchmen because he needed the US and USSR to think there was a third more powerful enemy to them both.

Second, Batman vs Ozymandias. The latter wins. He caught a bullet and orchestrated the removal of half the Crime Busters: the Comedian, Dr. Manhattan, and Rorschach (true, this was only temporary removal). He is mentally and physically more powerful than the Dark Knight.

Third, what's with all them Dark Knight/ Watchmen cross overs on the forums? First I saw Rorschach vs the Joker, now Batman vs Ozymandias. What's next? Who hotter: Silk Specter or Cat Woman? Perhaps we could argue over if Archie or the Batmobil is more eco-friendly.

Dervag
2009-04-10, 10:43 PM
Me, I think Batman wins. Batman is a good enough detective to defeat almost any amount of secrecy. If Ozymandias lets it be even vaguely possible for anyone to discover his plan, even in theory, Batman is likely to do it.

Batman is rich enough that he can rival Ozymandias in wealth, and physically capable enough that I think he has a very real chance against Ozy in hand to hand combat.

In many ways, he is far more effective than Nite-Owl and Rorschach combined, especially against an enemy with great resources. Also, he has contacts with people who rival Dr. Manhattan in sheer power and are far more willing to interfere in events.

Ozymandias stands a credible chance of success, but I'd bet on Batman to win.

Berserk Monk
2009-04-10, 10:48 PM
One more thing I think I should point out: everyone knows who Ozymandias is, while Batman's true identity is unknown. Two ways to think of this:

1) Adrian has no guise to use should he be up to ill intentions, while Bruce Wayne can do whatever he pleases as the Dark Knight.

2) Adrian, being extremely intelligent, may be able to piece together Batman's true identity and black mail him.

chiasaur11
2009-04-10, 10:50 PM
First rule of vs threads: With prep time, Batman wins.

Second rule: Without prep time, Batman probably wins.

Third rule: Don't talk about The Fat Fury, Rex The Wonderdog, Squirrel Girl, or Sgt Rock.

Berserk Monk
2009-04-10, 10:55 PM
First rule of vs threads: With prep time, Batman wins.

Second rule: Without prep time, Batman probably wins.

Third rule: Don't talk about The Fat Fury, Rex The Wonderdog, Squirrel Girl, or Sgt Rock.

What?!?! No! Batman doesn't win. Ozymandias can catch a bullet! He's 50 times the fighter Batman is. He can catch a bullet. Nothing in Batman's arsenal can put him on that level. Ozymandias wins! He's smarter. He's more cunning. He's faster. He wins. You people read Watchmen. Do it know and beg Alan Moore for forgiveness and pray he doesn't smite you all down with his 30 pounds of facial hair and his billion crazy ass rings.

chiasaur11
2009-04-10, 11:17 PM
What?!?! No! Batman doesn't win. Ozymandias can catch a bullet! He's 50 times the fighter Batman is. He can catch a bullet. Nothing in Batman's arsenal can put him on that level. Ozymandias wins! He's smarter. He's more cunning. He's faster. He wins. You people read Watchmen. Do it know and beg Alan Moore for forgiveness and pray he doesn't smite you all down with his 30 pounds of facial hair and his billion crazy ass rings.

I gave Alan Moore the ceremonial offering prescribed by the ancient writ.* His vengeance will not be visited upon me. And Ozy can catch a bullet. Once. And he's shocked. Batman beats up near gods, all the time. Every atom of his brain is dedicated to fighting crime on an instinctual level. He could beat up bears at age ten. He's badass personified, and he won't take any crud from a Pete Cannon knockoff.


*Namely, mentioning his favorite superhero as being able to beat Batman.

Hectonkhyres
2009-04-10, 11:20 PM
Ozymandias:
Admitted to be the smartest mortal human on earth by an effing blue deity.
Ridiculously strong, fast, and a master of just about ever fighting art ever conceived.
A renaissance man who is proficient with technologies that operate on a whole other level from what we understand.
Genre savvy. Very Genre savvy. He doesn't make the sort of mistake you expect from either a hero or a villain.
Has a major multinational corporation at his beck and call.
Good with the media. People like the guy and can find no fault with him.
Willing to kill if sufficiently expedient.
Only has hired goons as allies... and he can't even use those freely because he has to maintain the appearance of being the good guy.
Has never had much need for exotic combat equipment.
His name is public record and all his secret bases can be found in the phonebook. Even if they are in antarctica.


Batman:

Genetically normal but as strong and well trained as somebody who hasn't won the genetic lottery at conception can possibly be. Has trained in every fighting art ever conceived.
The man has failed and pulled himself back up a thousand times and has had to pay horrendous costs for victory. He has willpower on his side in spades.
Has years of experience dealing with threats mundane, mystical, or of tech levels that make us look like hut dwelling primitives. Has strategies and equipment designed to take down everything under the level of deity... and even a few of those
Has friends. Oh, god, does he have friends. The bastard has the entire Justice League on speed dial for starters.
Has a major multinational corporation... but can't quite use it at a whim. He can only siphon resources indirectly out of fear of hinting at his identity.
Nobody actually knows who he is hand his secret base is, well, secret.
Not willing to kill his enemy under any circumstance... as long as they are human.
Will not use gunlike weaponry.
Seen as a rogue element by half the city and city authorities.
Still genetically normal, even if he has trained himself into Qui Chang Kain over the years.
Enough preexisting enemies to choke a horse.

stm177
2009-04-10, 11:31 PM
First rule of vs threads: With prep time, Batman wins.

Second rule: Without prep time, Batman probably wins.

Third rule: Don't talk about The Fat Fury, Rex The Wonderdog, Squirrel Girl, or Sgt Rock.

Hmm....

Superman, Batman, Ozymandias, and Dr. Manhattan vs. Squirrel Girl

We all know which side would win.
:smallamused:

Starscream
2009-04-10, 11:39 PM
Ozzy's plan was no more clever or intricate than the stuff Ra's Al Ghul does every other week, and Batman never had any trouble beating him.

And the only reason Adrian didn't get the living snot beaten out of him (besides one stray bullet) was that the other characters (Rorshach excepted) agreed to let him get away with it.

Yeah he caught a bullet. Whoop-De-Freaking-Do. Batman has faced Darkseid, Amazo, Superman and other godlike beings and won consistently.

Ozymandias is just a less formidable version of Prometheus, really, and Batman beat him. And if Nite-Owl and Rorshach could figure out his plans, no way the World's Greatest Detective will have difficulty.

Edit:
And then he ends up in Arkham where the other inmates will eat him alive. Sorry, but the guy is kind of a creampuff, projectile interception aside.

Finn Solomon
2009-04-10, 11:52 PM
Come on. Ozymandias only removed the Crimebusters, most of whom are non-powered. Batman had contingency plans that took down the entire Justice League.

sealemon
2009-04-10, 11:54 PM
Second, Batman vs Ozymandias. The latter wins. He caught a bullet and orchestrated the removal of half the Crime Busters: the Comedian, Dr. Manhattan, and Rorschach (true, this was only temporary removal). He is mentally and physically more powerful than the Dark Knight.

Even ignoring some of the Bat Cheese that has appeared in the last couple of years with Batman, he has shown the ability to take out stronger, faster guys in combat. Killer Crock, KGBeast, Bane, Prometheus...even Superman. He has taken on some of the craftiest, most intelligent men in the past as well, and won. Lex Luthor, Rhas al Ghul. Penguin (Yes, Penguin. He's much smarter than he looks).

While I do not doubt the abilities of Ozy, I do not think it would be the cakewalk you are predicting. I could see the fight going either way, but I do have to give the advantage to the Bat.

Dervag
2009-04-11, 01:12 AM
2) Adrian, being extremely intelligent, may be able to piece together Batman's true identity and black mail him.Lucius Fox's comment applies:

"Let me get this straight: You think that your client, one of the wealthiest, most powerful men in the world, is secretly a vigilante who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp with his bare hands. And your plan is to blackmail this person? Good luck."

I mean, Adrian might make it work, but it's far more likely to fail and cause Batman to think of Adrian as an enemy. Adrian's best chance of success is to stay under Batman's radar by not presenting an overt threat. If Batman gets involved, Ozymandias is in for a dangerous struggle, even if he wins.

Mewtarthio
2009-04-11, 01:58 AM
I think it's a lot simpler than that. Nite Owl is clearly supposed to be Batman. Ozymandias defeated Nite Owl and Rorschach at once without breaking a sweat. Ergo, Ozymandias could defeat Batman alone.

kpenguin
2009-04-11, 02:05 AM
Nite Owl isn't Batman. He's Blue Beetle without the BB gun.

Berserk Monk
2009-04-11, 02:19 AM
Batman...has shown the ability to take out stronger, faster guys in combat. Killer Crock, KGBeast, Bane, Prometheus...even Superman.

Superman's two biggest weaknesses: a rock and a bald man. Yeah. That real challenging to take him down.

kpenguin
2009-04-11, 02:22 AM
Superman's two biggest weaknesses: a rock and a bald man. Yeah. That real challenging to take him down.

To be fair, Ozy had trouble killing a bald man too.

Xuincherguixe
2009-04-11, 02:27 AM
Nite Owl (that spelling is painful) is obviously supposed to be Batman, in that the character concepts are similar. But he is obviously not as capable as Batman. In a way, Nite Owl is the subversion of Batman.

Berserk Monk
2009-04-11, 02:28 AM
To be fair, Ozy had trouble killing a bald man too.

Unlike Lex Luther, this bald man can reconstruct himself, see into the future unless blocked by faster than light particles, create duplicates, grow to a giant, disintegrate people at will, survive on Mars and the sun, not to mention a whole bunch of other abilities I'm probably forgetting.

kpenguin
2009-04-11, 02:33 AM
Nite Owl (that spelling is painful) is obviously supposed to be Batman, in that the character concepts are similar. But he is obviously not as capable as Batman. In a way, Nite Owl is the subversion of Batman.

Other than costume, Nite Owl really has more in common with the Blue Beetle, specifically the Ted Kord beetle, than Batman. Compare their airships, their goggles, and their reliance on gadgetry. Heck, even their personalities are closer to each other than Batman.


Unlike Lex Luther, this bald man can reconstruct himself, see into the future unless blocked by faster than light particles, create duplicates, grow to a giant, disintegrate people at will, survive on Mars and the sun, not to mention a whole bunch of other abilities I'm probably forgetting.

But can he steal 40 cakes?

Icewalker
2009-04-11, 02:36 AM
I will admit to knowing little enough about actual Batman canon for my opinion to be particularly useful, but here's how I see it:

In a straight up fight, Ozymandias would win. With the three factors that he's so well trained in combat, can catch a bullet, and is intelligent enough to understand everything Batman would be doing, the dark knight doesn't have any weapons that he could use effectively, and when it comes to a fistfight Ozymandias is superhuman, even if Batman is as well trained as he is.

In terms of long term manipulation and interaction, Ozymandias certainly matches if not exceeds Batman in intelligence and available resources. Batman may have slightly better abilities for actual planning, but I'm not sure it works out in his favor.

Honestly, I'm not sure what the basis of this fight is. Ozymandias was making a well-calculated move in Watchmen, killing people to save others isn't just 'what he does' it was just what he considered the best choice. Also, if he did have some plan that involved the loss of some for the good of many, it seems like Batman would actually be all for that himself, at least considering things like his choice of hostage in Dark Knight. He's a pretty reasonable guy when it comes to realistic situations on heroics from the VERY LITTLE I've seen. I could be completely wrong, so you know.

Berserk Monk
2009-04-11, 02:39 AM
I will admit to knowing little enough about actual Batman canon for my opinion to be particularly useful, but here's how I see it:

In a straight up fight, Ozymandias would win. With the three factors that he's so well trained in combat, can catch a bullet, and is intelligent enough to understand everything Batman would be doing, the dark knight doesn't have any weapons that he could use effectively, and when it comes to a fistfight Ozymandias is superhuman, even if Batman is as well trained as he is.

In terms of long term manipulation and interaction, Ozymandias certainly matches if not exceeds Batman in intelligence and available resources. Batman may have slightly better abilities for actual planning, but I'm not sure it works out in his favor.

Honestly, I'm not sure what the basis of this fight is. Ozymandias was making a well-calculated move in Watchmen, killing people to save others isn't just 'what he does' it was just what he considered the best choice. Also, if he did have some plan that involved the loss of some for the good of many, it seems like Batman would actually be all for that himself, at least considering things like his choice of hostage in Dark Knight. He's a pretty reasonable guy when it comes to realistic situations on heroics from the VERY LITTLE I've seen. I could be completely wrong, so you know.

Finally, someone else gets it. Although to be fair, Batman could pull some god-tool out of his belt. As I recall from the old TV show, his bat belt was a Deus ex Machina producing machine.

Kris Strife
2009-04-11, 02:44 AM
Finally, someone else gets it. Although to be fair, Batman could pull some god-tool out of his belt. As I recall from the old TV show, his bat belt was a Deus ex Machina producing machine.

Must reach Bat-Stupidity Ray!

Sholos
2009-04-11, 05:08 AM
Also, if he did have some plan that involved the loss of some for the good of many, it seems like Batman would actually be all for that himself, at least considering things like his choice of hostage in Dark Knight.

Huh? Batman goes after his love interest, leaving the hero of the city to die. Please explain to me how that means he's real willing to sacrifice a few for the good of the many. Seems the opposite way around, actually.

The whole thing is silly, of course. There's no reason Ozymandius would need to destroy Gotham to fix it (hint: destroying a city rarely helps its condition); but if (for the sake of the argument) Ozymandius did decide to do it, then Batman wouldn't find out about it until it was too late to do anything. Remember, the only reason Nite Owl and Rorschach found out was by looking at Adrian's personal computer. And the only reason they had access to his computer was because they were going to him for help. That doesn't tend to be Batman's MO, and he wouldn't break into Adrian's office without a reason for suspicion, something that Adrian is very adroit at keeping away from himself. And remember, even with Nite Owl and Rorschach finding out about Ozy's plan, they still were far away from even confronting him when he completed it.

tl;dr - Batman wouldn't find out about the plan before Ozy completed it. Ozy wins.

Berserk Monk
2009-04-11, 07:34 AM
Ozymandias also has bubastis. Giant, mutant kitty FTW!!!

Revlid
2009-04-11, 08:18 AM
Yes, Ozymandias is the smartest man alive in Watchmen.
Yes, Ozymandias is the fittest, best fighter alive in Watchmen.

But in all honesty, the DCU is on a different power scale than Watchmen. Beings like Dr. Manhattan are run-of-the-mill, and yet Batman is still considered to be the most dangerous man on the planet.

Thufir
2009-04-11, 08:28 AM
Remember, the only reason Nite Owl and Rorschach found out was by looking at Adrian's personal computer. And the only reason they had access to his computer was because they were going to him for help.

Even more than this - the only reason they knew anything was happening was because Edward Blake looked out a window at the right moment to see the island. If he hadn't, the plan would have gone ahead with no difficulties, and no-one, costumed heroes included, would have been any the wiser about it.

Sholos
2009-04-11, 08:51 AM
Yes, Ozymandias is the smartest man alive in Watchmen.
Yes, Ozymandias is the fittest, best fighter alive in Watchmen.

But in all honesty, the DCU is on a different power scale than Watchmen. Beings like Dr. Manhattan are run-of-the-mill, and yet Batman is still considered to be the most dangerous man on the planet.

I don't think Dr. Manhattan beings are all that common. None of them recreate themselves after being completely destroyed. They might come back through other means, but none of them just make themselves again.

Demons_eye
2009-04-11, 08:52 AM
Yes, Ozymandias is the smartest man alive in Watchmen.
Yes, Ozymandias is the fittest, best fighter alive in Watchmen.

But in all honesty, the DCU is on a different power scale than Watchmen. Beings like Dr. Manhattan are run-of-the-mill, and yet Batman is still considered to be the most dangerous man on the planet.

This. Batman is still one of the top dogs even when there are people like superman.

Watchmens most powerfull guy is run of the mill in DC. If Ozymandias found himself in Bats area bats would know. Ozymandias has money and if he used that money like he did bats would find out. That and the other 20 guys trying to blow up half the states might make Ozymandias stop for a bit.

Kris Strife
2009-04-11, 08:54 AM
I don't think Dr. Manhattan beings are all that common. None of them recreate themselves after being completely destroyed. They might come back through other means, but none of them just make themselves again.

Doomsday can.

Kreistor
2009-04-11, 09:08 AM
I'm using the comic for this evaluation.

Throughout the comic, there are background references to missing artists. Rorschach misses these references, due to his distrust of the media in general. Batman would not. This makes him a danger to Ozymandias very early in the plan. And while Ozy may be smart, he isn't doing everything himself, so he can't prevent the microscopic evidence that would lead Batman to the island from existing.

Ozy, however, would know this. Before anything began, Ozy would need a plan to deal with Batman.

Because of this, we can't properly evaluate this vs. Ozy creates excallent plans to distract or eliminate enemies, while such things have not worked well on Batman in the past. Batman may not be the smartest man in the world, but he is the best detective. The problem for Ozy is the timescale. He needs to distract Batman for years, instead of Rorschach for days. That is a daunting task.

As for one-on-one, no, Ozymandias is not the better of the Bat. Both spent years training. We see Ozy easliy handle Rorschach (never trained... a street thug) and Nite Owl (aging and out of practice). Unless you define Batman as someone that would stop in the face of an anti-vigilante Law (which is usually not the case... typically in such scenarios Batman quits only because he has aged and gotten slow), then Batman has te further advantage of constant practice at conflict. Ozymandias, on the other hand, stopped fighting. As much as you practice, real combat is the best training grund. I give the combat advantage to Batman, in a very major way.

Further, yes, Batman is paranoid. He does figure out how to deal with anyone, even his allies. Batman would have a plan for how to fight Ozymandias and win.

Should Ozymandias win, though, Batman would not permit him to gain from this event. Batman would find eveidence of corporate misdealings not related to the plot, and bring Ozymandias down. Batman is justice for all, and Ozymandias would be brought to serve the justice for the horror he had wrought.

Sholos
2009-04-11, 09:10 AM
This. Batman is still one of the top dogs even when there are people like superman.
Yeah, like Superman is hard to beat. In the DC universe, the trick is not stumbling over kryptonite every few feet.


Watchmens most powerfull guy is run of the mill in DC. If Ozymandias found himself in Bats area bats would know. Ozymandias has money and if he used that money like he did bats would find out. That and the other 20 guys trying to blow up half the states might make Ozymandias stop for a bit.

Why would Batman be watching Adrian's finances in the first place? Remember, Adrian's really, really good at avoiding suspicion. Batman doesn't investigate every single person alive; he only investigates the ones he thinks are a threat. Also, I'm pretty sure that Ozy could figure out that Batman=Wayne pretty quickly.

In addition, I didn't think this was "Batman and Friends vs. Ozymandius". I thought it was "Batman vs. Ozymandius". If Batman has to call other people in, then it's those people defeating Ozymandius, not Batman.

Also, a lot of the arguments for Batman seem to rely on the assumption that Ozy is just going to act like a normal villain (something that I think you'll recall he most explicitly does not do). Ozy's going to take the time to get to know as many things about the world he's been dropped into. That means that (assuming he decides to destroy Gotham) his plan won't even come to fruition until several, several years later.


Doomsday can.

Yes, but Doomsday wouldn't be able to do squat against Dr. Manhattan, and Dr. Manhattan would be able to beat Doomsday every time (what with being able to directly transmute matter and all).

Kris Strife
2009-04-11, 09:15 AM
And each time, Dr. Manhattan would have to find a different way to kill him. And its not like Doomsday hasn't killed beings of pure energy before.

Jahkaivah
2009-04-11, 09:33 AM
As Berserk Monk said, Ozymandias' solution to ridding a city of crime would probably not be to blow it up.

Let's assume there is a fear of nuclear war and Ozymandias decides to reveal his true identity and hatches a plan to yadda yadda yadda yadda, only Dr Manhattan does not exist, it's Gotham instead of New York and instead of Nite Owl, Rorschach , Silk Spectre and the Comedian we just have Batman.

Batman universe technology is more advance than ours so Ozymandias doesn't need Dr Manhattan to pull off the squid thing.

I find that leaves 3 questions:

1, Would Batman want to stop Ozymandias? Ozymandias' best weapon is thrusting morally grey dilemma's on his opponents.

2, Would Batman find out about it? Ozymandias' second best weapon is not letting his opposition know what he's doing until he has already done it 35 minutes ago.

3, In a fight, would Batman win?

I reckon a yes to 3, for reasons stated above, but I think 1 an 2 is debatable.

Haven
2009-04-11, 12:40 PM
I find that leaves 3 questions:

1, Would Batman want to stop Ozymandias? Ozymandias' best weapon is thrusting morally grey dilemma's on his opponents.

2, Would Batman find out about it? Ozymandias' second best weapon is not letting his opposition know what he's doing until he has already done it 35 minutes ago.

3, In a fight, would Batman win?

I reckon a yes to 3, for reasons stated above, but I think 1 an 2 is debatable.

1. Batman deals with "hannibal lectures" on a daily basis. And no, he never just lets a villain go just because they think they're doing something for the good of mankind.

2. Yeah. There were many subtle clues that no one in the Watchmen world was able to pick up on, because they don't have the winning combination that is Batman's intelligence, connections, resources and determination. If Batman had been in Watchmen, he would have investigated one or all of the following--Roland, the disappearing artists, the transdimensional research company, Eddie Blake's murder, or probably even Ozymandias directly, either from some shady-looking business deal or just because being a hero guarantees you as least as much scrutiny from Batman as you'd get if you were a villain--and would have been able to find evidence and make the connection, because: world's greatest detective.

3. I'm inclined to think Batman could outfight Ozymandias, since the bullet-catch is the only thing I'm not certain Batman could do. But in any case, Ozy's fighting style is straight-up fighting; Batman would toss out a flash-bang or drop some smoke bombs and I don't think Ozy has anything he could do about that. Especially since in most cases it's Batman who goes for Ozy, meaning Bats gets to make his move first.

JaxGaret
2009-04-11, 01:12 PM
Why would Batman be watching Adrian's finances in the first place? Remember, Adrian's really, really good at avoiding suspicion. Batman doesn't investigate every single person alive; he only investigates the ones he thinks are a threat.

I'm pretty sure that Batman investigates anyone even remotely as wealthy and influential as Adrian. It's just common sense.


As to the original question put forth by the OP: like I stated already in the Rorschach v. Joker thread long before this thread was created, they're pretty much on an even level. They're both the best mundane fighters in the world, they're both planners extraordinaire, they're both completely devoted to their cause, they're both ridiculously rich. It could go either way.

Also, Nite Owl is a joke, and shame on anyone for comparing him to the Batman.

Dervag
2009-04-11, 07:51 PM
Also, Nite Owl is a joke, and shame on anyone for comparing him to the Batman.Nite Owl is like a lesser echo of the Batman. He's sort of Batmanlike, but without the inner strength and enormous resources that make Batman truly epic.

revolver kobold
2009-04-11, 08:28 PM
Ozymandias probably orchestrated for Bruce's parents to be killed, in order to drive him to become The Batman, as he figured that was a better way to clean up Gotham rather than dropping a giant squid on the city.

Tyrant
2009-04-11, 09:46 PM
I think anyone saying Batman isn't superhuman is kidding themselves. He very clearly can warp time and space so that he can spy on every hero, villain, demigod, rich person, and criminal in the world in real time and connect every last dot. He does this while fighting crime the old fashioned way and pretending to be Bruce Wayne. And physical training/therapy. And staying well versed in every technology known to human and alien science. And of course fighting the occasional intergalactic threat.

Get real. Batman is so overblown it's not even funny. He's a bad joke on par with Wolverine at this point (really, no one can kill a midget with a bad attitude in a universe with people that can destory planets on a whim?). Beat Superman if Superman really wants him dead? Yeah right. That fight is all of the 3 seconds of flight time for Superman to fly through Batman at several times the speed of sound. Or just blast him from orbit with heat vision. Batman has already tipped his hand and any former teammate won't hold back if they fight him if they are written as anything close to intelligent. Or Darkseid. That fight should be however long it takes Darkseid to fire the Omega beam. Or just squeeze Batman's head until it pops. Batman may as well be Dues Ex Machina wearing a cape, which is rediculous and pointless even trying to compare to anything else. I'm sure someone will tell me he could stop the Dark Phoenix.

I think Ozymandias wins. He would never set up his offices in Gotham. He would set up someplace like Metropolis. So, all the scheming would be far beyond Gotham and he (or his men) would never even have to set foot in Gotham to destroy it via giant squid. He would never cross paths with Batman so Batman would never have reason to investigate him. If he thought it were possible, he would set up some elaborate scheme to keep him distracted. Or, he would find no reason to destroy Gotham and would instead start taking out the villains believing them to be the cause of instability in DC.

nothingclever
2009-04-12, 01:49 AM
Seeing people say Ozymandias can catch a bullet over and over again as if it means he beats Batman hand to hand is a little annoying.

Batman was once attacked by a sniper from behind aiming at his head and his chi force caused the bullet to go off course and miss him. The hitman never took another mission to kill Batman.

It's too bad the Batman entry on Wikipedia has lost the old part with all of Batman's abilities/feats. It still lists his equipment but there's so much more to the character. Batman is basically superhuman because he has chi force training and has fought and won against the masters of masters of masters of martial arts. He's lost before but he often wins the next time around or ties with the best ones and that's because he's not using his equipment. Ozymandias doesn't have any mystical martial art powers so Batman should be able to find a way to beat him up close such as superhumanly sensing Ozy's movements briefly to counterattack his speed advantage or temporarily giving himself extra speed/whatever.

If Batman really wanted to he could just build himself an Ironman suit, fly over to Ozymandias and blast him. Batman has already made plenty of amazing future technology actually made so even if Ozymandias wants to invent a great new weapon Batman already has one ready.

KnightDisciple
2009-04-12, 01:34 PM
Nite Owl is like a lesser echo of the Batman. He's sort of Batmanlike, but without the inner strength and enormous resources that make Batman truly epic.

I think the idea of Nite Owl being a Blue Beetle parallel holds up pretty well.

On main topic:
"Ozy can catch bullets, so he can totally beat Batman"? Really? That's not that fast, and Batman's dealt with plenty of opponents who are low-level superhuman (Killer Croc, Clayface, KGBeast, Bane). On top of that, he knows martial arts. Not some martial arts. All of them. He's one of the top 5 or so martial artists in the DC world. He's surpassed by, off the top of my head, Lady Shiva and Cassandra Cain. One of whom does nothing but martial arts (whereas Batman has detective skills, psychology, science, etc.), and the other can read body language so perfectly as to predict moves.
I'm not going to count "chi force", since that's only come up once, maybe twice.
But his equipment also needs to be considered; flashbangs and smokebombs would work pretty well on Adrian, since he's got nothing to protect himself agains the affects.
As others have said, Bruce would likely have programs watching the finances of Adrian rather closely, especially if he moved into the city recently.

Tensu
2009-04-12, 02:52 PM
the answer to all vs. threads: "they all die due to a clever trap by batman".

as for catching a bullet, who says batman can't catch a bullet? he just doesn't need to since he wears armor because, well, he's not an idiot.

as for "would they fight?" I believe Ras Al Ghul thought that the destruction of gotham was for the good of the world, at least in begins. I could see Ozy thinking the same thing seeing as how he thinks slaughtering hundreds innocent people and killing and/or ruining his fellow heros is better than asking Dr. Manhattan nicely to stop the nukes.

and knight owl was indeed based on Ted Kord and not batman, at least so saeth the wikipedia.

chiasaur11
2009-04-12, 02:58 PM
I think anyone saying Batman isn't superhuman is kidding themselves. He very clearly can warp time and space so that he can spy on every hero, villain, demigod, rich person, and criminal in the world in real time and connect every last dot. He does this while fighting crime the old fashioned way and pretending to be Bruce Wayne. And physical training/therapy. And staying well versed in every technology known to human and alien science. And of course fighting the occasional intergalactic threat.

Get real. Batman is so overblown it's not even funny. He's a bad joke on par with Wolverine at this point (really, no one can kill a midget with a bad attitude in a universe with people that can destory planets on a whim?). Beat Superman if Superman really wants him dead? Yeah right. That fight is all of the 3 seconds of flight time for Superman to fly through Batman at several times the speed of sound. Or just blast him from orbit with heat vision. Batman has already tipped his hand and any former teammate won't hold back if they fight him if they are written as anything close to intelligent. Or Darkseid. That fight should be however long it takes Darkseid to fire the Omega beam. Or just squeeze Batman's head until it pops. Batman may as well be Dues Ex Machina wearing a cape, which is rediculous and pointless even trying to compare to anything else. I'm sure someone will tell me he could stop the Dark Phoenix.

I think Ozymandias wins. He would never set up his offices in Gotham. He would set up someplace like Metropolis. So, all the scheming would be far beyond Gotham and he (or his men) would never even have to set foot in Gotham to destroy it via giant squid. He would never cross paths with Batman so Batman would never have reason to investigate him. If he thought it were possible, he would set up some elaborate scheme to keep him distracted. Or, he would find no reason to destroy Gotham and would instead start taking out the villains believing them to be the cause of instability in DC.

So wait.

You just said Batman has reached all but unstoppable levels of overpowered...

And then "Ozymandias would win. Just because."

The two points don't go together at all.

Starscream
2009-04-12, 02:58 PM
as for catching a bullet, who says batman can't catch a bullet? he just doesn't need to since he wears armor because, well, he's not an idiot.

Good point. What sort of "Smartest Man In The World" knows that someone is going to shoot him and comes up with the plan "Well, there's a decent chance I can catch the bullet, so I'll go with that."

And yes, I know, he needed to make the attempted assassination look real. But would anyone really have questioned a billionaire/former superhero wearing Kevlar?

Leliel
2009-04-12, 03:13 PM
For the record, this assumes there will be a Gotham-destroying plot by Ozymandias.

If there weren't, Batman would have no reason to fight him.

Savvy?

KnightDisciple
2009-04-12, 03:57 PM
For the record, this assumes there will be a Gotham-destroying plot by Ozymandias.

If there weren't, Batman would have no reason to fight him.

Savvy?

Well, I'd wager there's at least an even chance of Bruce wanting to stop him if mass slaughter of any city is involved. He's got a "people not dying" thing and all that.

Tyrant
2009-04-12, 04:41 PM
So wait.

You just said Batman has reached all but unstoppable levels of overpowered...

And then "Ozymandias would win. Just because."

The two points don't go together at all.
No, my point about Batman is that he is a bad joke. His whole deal is that he is just a guy amongst people that may as well be gods. However, the way he is written he may as well be one too. That doesn't go together yet they keep going with it. It's absurd. Either he is just a guy, in which case 3/4ths of what he does is impossible, or he isn't. If he isn't just a guy, then him beating Superman (completely absurd) is nothing special. That's my point. He simply doesn't work. There aren't enough hours in the day or painkillers and amphetamines to keep him going. His writers are apparently told to put the most absurd crap they can come up with in his books and people think it's awesome because he's "just a human". It's just like Wolverine. Someone who has one useful power (a power others have and have a far better version of) in a universe with beings that destroy worlds in their spare time and somehow (the power of plot) he keeps going. I am all for suspension of disbelief, but at some point I have to say "no, that just doesn't work". The fact that so many people are willing to mindlessly chant "With preperation Batman wins" in every matchup he is put into proves my point. Chi force moving a bullet? Yeah, that happens all the time with normal people.

As for Ozymandias winning, I stand by my reasons. Mostly because I can quite easily ignore what is absolutely awful writing or zero editorial control. He neutralised every potential adversary and brought about world peace. I believe that is miles ahead of Batman's track record of still not putting an end to crime in one city.

Tensu
2009-04-12, 05:11 PM
any ordinary human can defeat superman if they have kryptonite.

Batman is special because he thought to carry it around in a way that wouldn't give him cancer:smallbiggrin:

Batman isn't ordinary, he has no superpowers, but he isn't ordinary. Batman takes the time to prepare and think about every eventuality. He'll beat Ozy because he'll see Ozy coming, he'll see Ozy coming because he had a plan to stop someone like Ozy before (plot device to bring Ozy to gotham) was ever thought up by Ozy. He developed this plan because he's got one heck of an obsession.

Batman isn't ready for everything because of plot, he's ready for everything because prepare for stuff is just about all he does. If you're that obsessed with doing something, you'll eventually do it.

KnightDisciple
2009-04-12, 05:39 PM
As for Ozymandias winning, I stand by my reasons. Mostly because I can quite easily ignore what is absolutely awful writing or zero editorial control. He neutralised every potential adversary and brought about world peace. I believe that is miles ahead of Batman's track record of still not putting an end to crime in one city.

...He kept the USA and USSR from nuking each other. That's not the same thing as "bringing about world peace". He beat Nite Owl and Rorschach in a hand to hand fight, and managed to not die to Silk Spectre shooting him. Dr. Manhatten? He inconveinced him. So "neutralizing every potential adversary" is a bit of a stretch.
And it was in a plot just as contrived, if not more so, than anything we see with Batman. And Ozy never had to deal with psychotic demons wearing human form, like the Joker, while not sinking to the level of a criminal (aka resorting to lethal force as a vigilante).

Basically, we've got Ozymandius fanwank on one side, and Batman fanwank on the other. Congratulations, the immovable object has met the unstoppable force. :smallannoyed:

Selrahc
2009-04-12, 05:41 PM
Nite Owl is like a lesser echo of the Batman. He's sort of Batmanlike, but without the inner strength and enormous resources that make Batman truly epic.

Before I found out that the Watchmen characters were re imaginings of Charlton Comic's characters I always thought that Nite Owl and Rorschach were a pastiche of the two different sides of Batman.

Nite Owl was the intelligence, the gadgets and the humanity. The light side of Batman.
Rorschach was the grit, the power and the trauma. The dark side of Batman.
Unified in one person, it makes a great hero. Separated as it is in Watchmen, you get two heroes who both lack something fundamental.

But yeah, Nite Owl is the Blue Beetle, Rorschach is um.. the Question? Someone like that.

Tyrant
2009-04-12, 05:45 PM
any ordinary human can defeat superman if they have kryptonite.
Not really. If Superman is even remotely trying kryptonite won't matter. Against normal people, or almost anyone for that matter, he has no real reason to get within arms length of them. He can blast them from miles above the earth if he feels like it. Or simply fly through them at extreme speed. He could literally decide to kill someone and kill them before they even think something may be about to happen. Batman wins because Superman isn't trying. If he were, he would win before Batman could blink an eye.

Batman isn't ordinary, he has no superpowers, but he isn't ordinary. Batman takes the time to prepare and think about every eventuality. He'll beat Ozy because he'll see Ozy coming, he'll see Ozy coming because he had a plan to stop someone like Ozy before (plot device to bring Ozy to gotham) was ever thought up by Ozy. He developed this plan because he's got one heck of an obsession.

Batman isn't ready for everything because of plot, he's ready for everything because prepare for stuff is just about all he does. If you're that obsessed with doing something, you'll eventually do it.
That sums up my problems with Batman. There simply isn't enough time in the day to do this for any and all eventualities if you are a normal human being. For one thing, he couldn't conceive of every eventuality because he is not omniscient. The same applies for planning to deal with everything. And of course while doing those two things which would be time consuming beyond belief, he also fights crime with his bare hands, fights gods apparently, pretends to be Bruce, I assume sleep is in here somewhere along with eating as well, and invents gadgets. Sorry, it doesn't work unless he can alter time and space.

...He kept the USA and USSR from nuking each other. That's not the same thing as "bringing about world peace".
It's been a while since I read the book, but the movie spells it out that the world is at peace. In the book I know he explains that is his ultimate goal. So, what's you're point?

He beat Nite Owl and Rorschach in a hand to hand fight, and managed to not die to Silk Spectre shooting him. Dr. Manhatten? He inconveinced him. So "neutralizing every potential adversary" is a bit of a stretch.
His plan went off without any of them being able to do anything to stop it because he ensured they would be out of the way. I am not sure what you call that, but I stand by my statement. His goal wasn't to kill any of them and I never said anything like that. He achieved his goal and they were powerless to stop him. I don't see how you call that a stretch.

And it was in a plot just as contrived, if not more so, than anything we see with Batman.
The plot was contrived. Ozymandias isn't. Ozymandias isn't doing things that take armies of people months to accomplish in the span of seconds non stop every hour of every day like Batman must be doing to make any sense. I was pretty clear in what I was talking about. It's not Ozy singlehandedly did every last thing that was part of the plan. If he did, you may have some kind of leg to stand on.

And Ozy never had to deal with psychotic demons wearing human form, like the Joker, while not sinking to the level of a criminal (aka resorting to lethal force as a vigilante).
I don't see the point of this. Ozy got results while Batman adheres to some kind of personal code that stops him from doing what should be done. Who's the real villain? The person who gets results or the person who could but holds themselves back?

Basically, we've got Ozymandius fanwank on one side, and Batman fanwank on the other. Congratulations, the immovable object has met the unstoppable force. :smallannoyed:
Ozy fanwank? Seriously? Is anyone really saying he eats bullets and breaks the rules of reality while still being "just a man"? Give me a break. It's pretty obvious which side the fanwank is tiliting towards.

Shadowbane
2009-04-12, 05:48 PM
My vote goes to Batman. For reasons already stated in this thread that I'm not going to restate for the umpteenth time.

KnightDisciple
2009-04-12, 07:41 PM
It's been a while since I read the book, but the movie spells it out that the world is at peace. In the book I know he explains that is his ultimate goal. So, what's you're point?
I never really got the impression from the movie that the world was necessarily at peace, in the sense of "world peace". In the sense of "not nuking itself", or "at peace" like the world is today, sure, I suppose. But that's distinctly different from "world peace".



His plan went off without any of them being able to do anything to stop it because he ensured they would be out of the way. I am not sure what you call that, but I stand by my statement. His goal wasn't to kill any of them and I never said anything like that. He achieved his goal and they were powerless to stop him. I don't see how you call that a stretch.
See, you're changing the goalposts. You said "neutralized". By itself, this implies that he actively neutralized (as in defeated or killed) his opponents. Not "outsmarted". Not "kept busy while he executed his plans". "Neutralized".



The plot was contrived. Ozymandias isn't. Ozymandias isn't doing things that take armies of people months to accomplish in the span of seconds non stop every hour of every day like Batman must be doing to make any sense. I was pretty clear in what I was talking about. It's not Ozy singlehandedly did every last thing that was part of the plan. If he did, you may have some kind of leg to stand on.
Batman's not doing everything himself. He's got a support network, both automated and manned. The biggest example is Oracle, but that's not the only thing. He's got several co-workers, as it were (Robin, Batgirl, Nightwing, Oracle). If we can count Ozy's company and contacts in this, we have to count the full breadth of manpower and resources Batman can call upon as well. Which includes data from the Gotham police, whose commissioner he has (barring the few non-Gordon years) a good working relationship with.



I don't see the point of this. Ozy got results while Batman adheres to some kind of personal code that stops him from doing what should be done. Who's the real villain? The person who gets results or the person who could but holds themselves back?
Yeah. Ozy "gets results". By murdering millions of innocent people. By propping this "world peace" up with lies. By mutilating humanity (in Nite Owl's words).:smallfurious: Don't you ****ing dare say he's a hero, or anything approaching it. He's worse than the fracking Joker. At least the Joker's honest about being a coldblooded killer, instead of deluding himself into thinking he's the savior of humanity. If you want to blame someone for the revolving door at Arkham, or the fact that the Joker's not dead yet, blame Arkham Asylum, or the Gotham DA. Batman's express purpose is to stop and apprehend criminals. He's the last line of defense, not offense. He's not, nor should he ever be, the judge, jury, and executioner. It's not what he's about. So don't you dare say that Ozymandius is better on moral grounds.



Ozy fanwank? Seriously? Is anyone really saying he eats bullets and breaks the rules of reality while still being "just a man"? Give me a break. It's pretty obvious which side the fanwank is tiliting towards.
Yes. Between the claims some have made that he would trounce Batman in physical combat, on top of all the swooning over his bringing world peace, it's just a touch of fanwank.

Tyrant
2009-04-12, 08:41 PM
I never really got the impression from the movie that the world was necessarily at peace, in the sense of "world peace". In the sense of "not nuking itself", or "at peace" like the world is today, sure, I suppose. But that's distinctly different from "world peace".

That's not how I took the publishers comments. He basically said there is nothing happening in the world worth talking about and everyone (everyone obviously being every country if he didn't actually say it) holding hands and being at peace. I think it's quite easy to see that the world was at peace and not just in the "we're not all dying in nuclear fire" kind of way.

See, you're changing the goalposts. You said "neutralized". By itself, this implies that he actively neutralized (as in defeated or killed) his opponents. Not "outsmarted". Not "kept busy while he executed his plans". "Neutralized".
Neutralised as in made a non issue. What's so hard to understand?

Batman's not doing everything himself. He's got a support network, both automated and manned. The biggest example is Oracle, but that's not the only thing. He's got several co-workers, as it were (Robin, Batgirl, Nightwing, Oracle). If we can count Ozy's company and contacts in this, we have to count the full breadth of manpower and resources Batman can call upon as well. Which includes data from the Gotham police, whose commissioner he has (barring the few non-Gordon years) a good working relationship with.
And what about before Oracle? Before the high powered computers? Watching Lex alone should take a small army of people. And I stand by my point that Ozy never has to set foot in Gotham to destroy it and neither do any of his people. New York is a major city considered at the center of things. That's why his headquarters was there and why he destroyed it. Gotham has no appeal for him to set up shop there and I am not really seeing a motivation to destroy it. If his plot centers around destroying Des Moines(for some reason beyond me) how is it going to get Batman's attention?

Yeah. Ozy "gets results". By murdering millions of innocent people. By propping this "world peace" up with lies. By mutilating humanity (in Nite Owl's words).:smallfurious: Don't you ****ing dare say he's a hero, or anything approaching it. He's worse than the fracking Joker. At least the Joker's honest about being a coldblooded killer, instead of deluding himself into thinking he's the savior of humanity. If you want to blame someone for the revolving door at Arkham, or the fact that the Joker's not dead yet, blame Arkham Asylum, or the Gotham DA. Batman's express purpose is to stop and apprehend criminals. He's the last line of defense, not offense. He's not, nor should he ever be, the judge, jury, and executioner. It's not what he's about. So don't you dare say that Ozymandius is better on moral grounds.
I don't blame Batman for them getting out again. I blame him for letting it come to that. He knows the system is broken. His very existence is proof of that. He knows that they will just keep escaping. He also knows he could end most of these villains. So, I ask again, is it really heroic knowing they will simply get out again and kill again and again when you have the power to stop them? I believe the countless victims of these villains will disagree. People who have the power to act and know that there is a reason they should are as much a part of the problem as the villains. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" and all that. Batman does something, I agree, but it is like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound.

As for Ozy, even if you disagree with his methods he got results. It was 15 million or everyone. It's really not a hard choice. Even Spock understood that.

Yes. Between the claims some have made that he would trounce Batman in physical combat, on top of all the swooning over his bringing world peace, it's just a touch of fanwank.
Beat him physically? I think he stands a chance. I don't think it's automatic either way. As for world peace, people notice results. Again, what has Batman changed?

Tensu
2009-04-12, 08:56 PM
because we all know superman knows where every peice of kryptonite on the planet is. S-man doesn't know there's K-nite nearby until he comes under it's effects.

as for "not enough time in the day", you'd be surprised. He can run through scenarios in the back of his head while on the job, showing up at parties, and during a slow patrol night. I, speaking as someone with OCD, know I draft up back-up plans in the back of my mind all the time. there's plenty of hours in the day. And it's not like he starts from scratch with his inventions: he improves upon some existing invention.

I'm also a bit taken aback by your seeming to think Ozy is the greater hero. Now making scarifices for the greater good is perfectly understandable, but not only did Ozy go to far, he had a lot of other reasonable options that didn't involve leveling half of the world's largest city. Not to mention that each country would have been far more likely to blame the other for creating the monstrosity and go to war anyway than peace, or at the very least continue fighting once the threat was gone. You claim Batman's powers are pure plot, but Ozy's "plan" was completely unrealistic and nonsensical, not to mention unethical, and he had a slew of more viable alternitives. the only reason Ozy ended the war and batman hasn't done something similar (I'm sure someone more versed in batman lore than I can name two dozen times he's saved this or another world, but for the sake of the argument we'll say he hasn't for now) was because unlike batman, watchmen ended.

as cheesey as batman may be, at least he makes sense in his universe, which is more than can be said about professor plothole a.k.a. Ozy.

btw, why does the title say batman is an antihero? both his motivations and his actions seem plenty heroic to me.

KnightDisciple
2009-04-12, 09:04 PM
It's no less heroic than regular police officers in the real world apprehending criminals who might end up escaping and killing again.
Or are you going to say they should just shoot ever suspect they come across?
The whole point is that because Batman is already working outside the bounds of the law by being a costumed vigilante, he doesn't want to stretch it any further. As well, he doesn't want to let himself go down the slippery slope of killing. Sure, at first it would be just the guys like the Joker. Then it would go to pettier and pettier criminals. I think Bruce knows he's on the edge as far as mental stability goes, and doesn't want to give himself any chance to slip over that edge and become the very monster he hunts.
That actual moral fortitude.

And the only reason Ozy's plan "worked" was because Alan Moore said it would. The book plan makes no sense for actually stopping nuclear war at all. The movie kind of does, but if he can create those disintegration thingies, why not just use it to disintegrate the nuclear stockpiles. Or maybe, I don't know, try to make Dr. Manhatten do it?
Instead of murdering millions of innocent lives?
The "smartest man in the world", and his only viable plan was mass murder to inspire terror? Congratulations, he's the world's worst terrorist. He's not genius; he's just a psychopath who dresses in "hero's" clothing.

That's not just a "hard" choice. It's no ****ing choice at all.

Tyrant
2009-04-12, 10:02 PM
because we all know superman knows where every peice of kryptonite on the planet is. S-man doesn't know there's K-nite nearby until he comes under it's effects.
Which is fair enough. However, as I said, unless his IQ hits single digits he has no good reason to get close enough to be affected by it. Kryptonite doesn't stop him from sitting in orbit and blasting you. Or flying through you at several times the speed of sound.

as for "not enough time in the day", you'd be surprised. He can run through scenarios in the back of his head while on the job, showing up at parties, and during a slow patrol night. I, speaking as someone with OCD, know I draft up back-up plans in the back of my mind all the time. there's plenty of hours in the day. And it's not like he starts from scratch with his inventions: he improves upon some existing invention.
Given the depths of his plans (or at least how all encompassing as I am supposed to believe they are), I think it's fair to assume he isn't just running them in the back of his mind while he is driving. Or let's say he is. Given that real life will interfere near constantly, it will take him days or weeks to come up with anything good against any formidable foe. Rinse and repeat for every known threat in DC and you're looking at work that will last beyond his lifetime. Then add the unknown that he aparently is also planned for. And then factor in all those moments he's spending harnessing his chi or fighting telepaths or whatever else requires his full attention. It breaks plausability. It gets worse when you view it in a compressed time line (all the events have taken place during X number of years).

I'm also a bit taken aback by your seeming to think Ozy is the greater hero.
I didn't say that. What he did had nothing to do with heroism. He did what was necessary and he got the job done. His own comments tell you what he thinks of the Batman brand of heroism. What I am saying is that inaction is as bad as being actively evil. So, to clarify, I am saying he has been more sucessful in what he is doing while Batman is simply another part of a broken system. Batman's morals make him the better hero. However, sometimes being a hero is the stupid choice.

he had a lot of other reasonable options that didn't involve leveling half of the world's largest city. Not to mention that each country would have been far more likely to blame the other for creating the monstrosity and go to war anyway than peace, or at the very least continue fighting once the threat was gone. You claim Batman's powers are pure plot, but Ozy's "plan" was completely unrealistic and nonsensical, not to mention unethical, and he had a slew of more viable alternitives. the only reason Ozy ended the war and batman hasn't done something similar (I'm sure someone more versed in batman lore than I can name two dozen times he's saved this or another world, but for the sake of the argument we'll say he hasn't for now) was because unlike batman, watchmen ended.
As I already said, his plan was contrived and I agree it was as likely to work as not work. However, given that the options were everyoe dies or some people die, it's an obvious choice. If the outcome of letting events run their course is certain nuclear war and the plan only has a 1% chance of success, my math tells me 1% is greater than 0% and therefore the logical choice.

And out of curiosity, what are the supposed alternatives?

as cheesey as batman may be, at least he makes sense in his universe, which is more than can be said about professor plothole a.k.a. Ozy.
Ozy's plot may not make sense, but what about him doesn't make sense?

It's no less heroic than regular police officers in the real world apprehending criminals who might end up escaping and killing again.
Or are you going to say they should just shoot ever suspect they come across?
This is pathetic. Just stop. First, with someone like the Joker there is no "they might escape and kill again". They will. They have every other time they have been locked up. Second, the Joker isn't a suspect. He has killed numerous people and that isn't in doubt. This is more like if a serial killer kept getting out and killing more people and just kept repeating the cycle again and again. Now add blowing up random things to the serial killers M.O. Now add the fact that he will gladly admit to all of it and try to make a show of everything if he can. At some point you have to realise the system doesn't work in this case and put a bullet in his brain. That is nowhere near your strawman.

The whole point is that because Batman is already working outside the bounds of the law by being a costumed vigilante, he doesn't want to stretch it any further. As well, he doesn't want to let himself go down the slippery slope of killing. Sure, at first it would be just the guys like the Joker. Then it would go to pettier and pettier criminals. I think Bruce knows he's on the edge as far as mental stability goes, and doesn't want to give himself any chance to slip over that edge and become the very monster he hunts.
That actual moral fortitude.
Then perhaps Bruce needs to reconsider his night job.

And the only reason Ozy's plan "worked" was because Alan Moore said it would.
I wondered when captain obvious would show up. The only reason 90% of what works in comics works is because the writer said so. That's no reason to accept implausable writing though. In the case of Ozy, even he is obviously suprised it worked. He's crying when he shouts "I did it". As I said above, a 1% chance of success is better than a 0% chance.

The book plan makes no sense for actually stopping nuclear war at all.
Of course. Every movie where humanity learns there are creatures other than us in the universe that can hurt us and it stops the world are completely wrong. No two warring groups ever decide to set aside their differences and unite against a common foe. It is possible that plan would lead to peace. It could also lead to war, but seeing as how that was going to happen anyway that's not really important.

The movie kind of does, but if he can create those disintegration thingies, why not just use it to disintegrate the nuclear stockpiles. Or maybe, I don't know, try to make Dr. Manhatten do it?
This whole nuclear war thing must just be really hard to understand because I keep having to explain why that won't work. First, we have no reason to believe he could scale down the weapon. If he can't, it's useless to use to take out the nukes. Second, we have no reason to believe he can hit more than one place at one time. In fact, we have reason to believe he can't. Third, it would require him knowing the exact position of every Soviet, US, French, English, Chinese (and whoever else I am forgetting) nuclear weapon. That includes subs (the true threat).

Now going from that, we have this:
If he can't destroy every nuke at once it's pointless. One of two things are likely to happen. Either A he targets the Soviet nukes and the moment he starts and they know what's happening they launch the rest of their nukes or Nixon just nukes the Soviets once they have no counter move. Or B, he targets all nukes and somehow magically takes them out. Then the Soviets invade Afghanistan and likely Europe or the Middle East and we go into non nuclear WWIII. Most of this applies to Dr.M as well. The book and the movie made it clear he can't stop every Soviet nuke. Thinking everything through it should be obvious that if he stood any chance of taking out every nuke he would have (if for no other reason than Nixon would ask him).

Instead of murdering millions of innocent lives?
I know it's hard to accept, but sometimes there is no other way. It isn't always rainbows and candy canes.

The "smartest man in the world", and his only viable plan was mass murder to inspire terror? Congratulations, he's the world's worst terrorist. He's not genius; he's just a psychopath who dresses in "hero's" clothing.
I take it you have the Rorshach mentality? Notice how he convinced all the reasonable people in the room that it was worth keeping quiet. As for his genius, the book and movie spell it out that he is the smartest man in the world. I believe part of the point was that that was the best the brightest man on Earth could come up with. I notice no one in the book provides any alternative and all the ones I hear require someone to not pay attention to make any sense.

That's not just a "hard" choice. It's no ****ing choice at all.
I take it we can't count on you to make hard choices with people's lives? And you're right, it is no choice. The 15 million are toast.
Edit to add:
Dervag summed up the problems nicely in another thread
The other side of the problem is that Dr. Manhattan made the US of the Watchmen timeline incredibly arrogant compared to our history. In anything less than an all-out war against the USSR, Dr. Manhattan was a decisive force on the American side, as the Watchmen-timeline version of Vietnam proved.

So the US got used to being able to bully the Soviets and push them back, while the Soviets got used to the idea that the Americans were arrogant, imperialistic in the extreme, and (this is important) much more powerful than they were. To make matters worse, the "detente" of Ford and Carter never occured in this setting, and Nixon remained an anticommunist in his 1950s style.

The overall result was a world where Cold War tensions were even greater than they were in real life during the Reagan administration. One where nuclear war was a lot more likely, especially with Dr. Manhattan gone.
_____

It's historically accurate for the US in the Watchmen setting to expect a Soviet first strike once Dr. Manhattan was out of the picture, too. The US was very concerned about the idea that any temporary weakness on their part might provoke a Soviet attack. Little did they know that on the Soviet side of the line, there was little or no interest in starting a general war with a nuclear attack on America.
also edited to spoiler some of the longer responses

Tensu
2009-04-12, 10:46 PM
...Kryptonite makes superman lose his powers. at least, that's what happened last time I checked.

...you've never had an obsession, have you? you'd be surprised how much you can plan for. a little insanity and a lot of tenacity goes a long, long way, even in a very small time frame.

what he did was unnecessary.

Dr. Manhattan can teleport, can't he? seems like if he took down nukes at about one per second, even less for nukes stored nearby, he could take them all out in what, five minutes tops? given the time it would take to fire the nukes and for them to reach his target, he could have taken them all. not to mention that given the time Ozy must've worked on this plan, the Doctor would have had plenty on time to pull it off.

Did Ozy consider politics or bribery as options? seems like if he was that rich, he could hold a lot of power over people, be it through political activism or bribery. And if he couldn't be the face of it for whatever reason, I'm sure he could've found someone who could be. and he's probably the kind of guy that's owed a lot of favors.

if he was the smartest and richest man in the world, seems like he could make some anti-nuke device if he could make a city-annihilating monstrosity.

why not send his squid monster(s?) to just destroy the planes and subs while they where over the open ocean? same effect only without hurting civillians. still bad, but much less so.

why not just kill those responsible for launching? he could make it look like he had no part in it. just keep it up until people who won't destroy the earth come into power. again, not optimal, but better than what he went with.

given the time he must've spent on this plan, seems like if he had worked with his fellow heros instead of against them, they could have easily taken care of all the nukes, or thought of a better plan than what he went with. or something.

Tyrant
2009-04-12, 11:27 PM
...Kryptonite makes superman lose his powers. at least, that's what happened last time I checked.
It doesn't work the way you think it does. If he blasts you from miles away with heat vision, the heat vision doesn't stop when it hits kryptonite. If he flies at you travelling several times the speed of sound, he will suffer minor power loss when he gets within the range of effect of kryptonite. However, he is still travelling several times the speed of sound and whoever he is hitting is still made of flesh and bone. They still go splat and he almost instantly is beyond the effects of the kryptonite. This stuff isn't that hard to get.

...you've never had an obsession, have you? you'd be surprised how much you can plan for. a little insanity and a lot of tenacity goes a long, long way, even in a very small time frame.
If he is doing that every moment, when is he fighting crime or practicing his fighting technique or focusing his chi? There is only so much multi tasking a human being can do.

Dr. Manhattan can teleport, can't he? seems like if he took down nukes at about one per second, even less for nukes stored nearby, he could take them all out in what, five minutes tops?
This is one assumption after another. Is his teleporting over vast distances instantaneous? If not, while he is hitting the Soviet homeland their subs are firing from the Atlantic and Pacific. Can he safely take them out one per second? I have my doubts. It took him a week to win Vietnam. At your power scale it should have taken minutes or seconds, yet it didn't. The Soviets are stated as having over 50,000 warheads. Even with your numbers that's 13 hours worth of work. For the record, it takes less than an hour for a sub launched nuclear missile to hit it's target and I believe less than an hour for an ICBM to hit it's multiple targets. Do you think they are going to sit there for 13 hours to figure out what's going on? Also, everything we see him destroy get's blown up or somehow mangled. You do know what is inside nuclear weapons right? Spreading radioactive material all over Europe and the USSR (and the oceans) isn't a huge step up from nuclear war. And you still don't stop Nixon from nuking them anyway once they are weaponless.

not to mention that given the time Ozy must've worked on this plan, the Doctor would have had plenty on time to pull it off.
And yet no one thought to ask Dr.M to do the obvious. Or we go with the far more plausable answer of they did and he told them he couldn't do it. Or wouldn't. They asked him to win Vietnam. He did. If this were possible, they would have asked him to do it or he would have done it on his own. The obvious answer is that he can't. That and they spell it out that he can't.

Did Ozy consider politics or bribery as options? seems like if he was that rich, he could hold a lot of power over people, be it through political activism or bribery. And if he couldn't be the face of it for whatever reason, I'm sure he could've found someone who could be. and he's probably the kind of guy that's owed a lot of favors.
These only go so far and don't stop the problem. You can't bribe everyone on the planet into being nice. He wanted to end war. Bribery can't do that. And what if enough people are dead set and bribery won't work? I am not saying his plan was perfect. However, we are told he is the smartest man in the world and this is what he comes up with. I think people need to face facts that there may have been no other reasonable option. Sometimes the only way to fix things is to cause destruction and death. People who think there is always another way are deluding themselves.

if he was the smartest and richest man in the world, seems like he could make some anti-nuke device if he could make a city-annihilating monstrosity.
Maybe. Though the two aren't really the same. Scaling things down is usually harder than scaling up. And again we come back to how they are going to destroy the nukes. If it isn't disintegration (and there's no reason at all to think it could hit every last Soviet missile) then we still have tons of radioactive material in the atmosphere. Also, we still are only solving part of the problem. Everyone else's nukes are part of the problem too.

why not send his squid monster(s?) to just destroy the planes and subs while they where over the open ocean? same effect only without hurting civillians. still bad, but much less so.
A few things. 1, this does nothing to stop ICBMs. 2, the planes would likely come over the top of the globe across Canada, not just open ocean. 3, the subs were pretty good at staying hidden. That was the point. 4, the squid dies after being teleported so you better know right where to send it. 5, what would it take to make more than one squid because the Soviet nukes wouldn't all come along the same exact path at the same exact moment. 6, your plans still do nothing to stop Nixon from firing the US missiles.

why not just kill those responsible for launching? he could make it look like he had no part in it. just keep it up until people who won't destroy the earth come into power. again, not optimal, but better than what he went with.
And if there is an unending string of people willing to launch? It will only take one on either side to launch. Or if the people in power never make the connection that their boss dies because he was willing to launch? Or, and this one is kind of the important one, how will he know before they launch if they are willing to launch?

given the time he must've spent on this plan, seems like if he had worked with his fellow heros instead of against them, they could have easily taken care of all the nukes, or thought of a better plan than what he went with. or something.
Aside from Dr.M, who could help?

SolkaTruesilver
2009-04-13, 01:00 AM
^^

What he said

Also, please consider that Ozy's plan was to prevent Nuclear apocalypse with the best outcome possible. You are all about saying: "He should have destroyed the nukes", etc... But Ozy's plan was not about the superpowers unable to strike each other, but Unwilling.

Destroying their stockpiles of nukes would not remove the antagonism between the two powers. They could always build more, or go into conventional warfare, which would have killed a lot more people than Ozy's plan anyway.

And it's wasn't JUST about nuclear apocalypse; the comic shown as so. He predicted an economic collapse of the world in the 90s, social tensions erupting, etc.. And even Dr. Manhattan wouldn't have been able to stop it. He provoked the final showdown between the USA and USSR to defuse this problem before it was too late. You can also see clues in his office paperwork that he plans to find a way to input social engineering into society to try and defuse the social tensions I've said earlier.

Dr. Manhattan's presence on Earth (and in America, more importantly) was also a huge problem. The United States felt invincible, and they acted with immense arrogance and violence against everybody because of it. It wasn't something that should continue any longer.

Personnally, I think that Ozy will win.

1) Ozymandia knowns of Batman existence, and will plan ahead. In that case, Ozy is the initiator, and Batman has to react.
2) In the event Batman knows of Ozy's presence (how?!), he will probably prepare things to neutralise him too.

It will all come down to Black Mage's argument: since Ozy is the initiator, he will probably find a way where loosing a fight against Batman doesn't mean failure of his plan.

But I think that Ozymandia would be clever ennough to spread ennough clues to send Batman in a wild goose chase. Ozy will also find a way to save Batman's life, if possible. He knows Batman is a positive influence on Gotham, and Ozy's ultimate goal is to make a better world that will last.

Ras'Al'Ghul's plans seemed to be stupid temporarily actions to act in a cyclical wheel. They planned to do it for eternity, because they think Mankind is un-redeemable. Ozy hopes that his actions will have a permanent effect on the world, which makes him appart from Ras.

Dervag
2009-04-13, 01:11 AM
Dr. Manhattan can teleport, can't he? seems like if he took down nukes at about one per second, even less for nukes stored nearby, he could take them all out in what, five minutes tops? given the time it would take to fire the nukes and for them to reach his target, he could have taken them all. not to mention that given the time Ozy must've worked on this plan, the Doctor would have had plenty on time to pull it off.The Soviets specifically made sure they had enough nukes that if Dr. Manhattan launched a one-superman preemptive attack, they'd be able to launch and have a lot of the missiles get through.

During the Cold War, both sides had many thousands of nuclear warheads. Granted, a lot of them were on MIRV missiles and could be taken out in groups, but still...


if he was the smartest and richest man in the world, seems like he could make some anti-nuke device if he could make a city-annihilating monstrosity.In fairness to Ozymandias, if Dr. Manhattan can't figure out something that stops nuclear bombs from detonating, Ozy probably can't either. Big Blue has the advantage of being able to see subatomic particles and create lab equipment by thinking about it. And he was a competent physicist even before the accident, remember?

So far as anyone can begin to guess, the only defense against a nuclear bomb is not to be there when it goes off. Or, OK, have a truly unreasonable amount of stuff between you and it.


given the time he must've spent on this plan, seems like if he had worked with his fellow heros instead of against them, they could have easily taken care of all the nukes, or thought of a better plan than what he went with. or something.Now this I agree with.

Ozymandias is a man who wants the world to be saved and who is as ambitious as Satan. That doesn't mean he's wrong about the need to save the world, but that does mean that we should take his word with a grain of salt when he says something like "it was the only way."

Trizap
2009-04-13, 01:31 AM
hmmmmmmmmm...............

there isn't enough information for this discussion to be viable, Batman is a long-running franchise anti-hero designed for long stories to last for years,
while Ozzy was just a one-shot deconstruction character, we don't really know how Ozzy really operated before the events in Watchmen, and he could have come up with other kinds of plans to fight crime or he could have been just a guy who went out on patrol and beat the first criminal he saw.

meanwhile we have a lot of information about batman and how he operates, what he prepares for, and how good he is, while for Ozzy, we can't really gauge anything as we don't have enough information to serve as a scale.

no matter how you look at it, its a lopsided discussion in batmans favor, we don't know enough about Ozzy, he is an unknown variable, not enough information so it can't really be resolved.

Sholos
2009-04-13, 02:07 AM
I think we should use Nolan's Batman.

kpenguin
2009-04-13, 02:38 AM
I think we should use Nolan's Batman.

Then Ozymandias wins, hands down. Nolan Batman is relatively inexperienced, not a genius, hardly a detective at all, and certainly not as fit as a man who can catch bullets.

bladedSmoke
2009-04-13, 02:59 AM
Then Ozymandias wins, hands down. Nolan Batman is relatively inexperienced, not a genius, hardly a detective at all, and certainly not as fit as a man who can catch bullets.

Agreed. I don't read many comics (Watchmen and Sandman are the only ones I've ever really bothered with), but Film!Batman would be so easily beaten up by Film!Ozymandias that it's not even funny.

Tensu
2009-04-13, 06:39 AM
I was told that superman instantly loses all his powers in the presence of kryptonite. have I heard wrong?

the same time he's obsessing over things. you're allowed to think while pumping iron, and, while it is a lot harder, while punching someone.

I admit I'm not very knowledgeable of the watchmen universe or the number of missiles each nation did or did not have in the cold war era, however I must ask how much effort Ozy put into diplomatic means of ending this. people who can't be bribed are generally smart enough to be reasoned with. seems like he could convince everybody that blowing up the planet was a bad idea on some level.

and even if death squids were the only option, it seems like there would be better ways to implement that option to make it both more believable and less costly.

GoC
2009-04-13, 08:01 AM
Batman fought Darkseid. And Superman.:smallbiggrin:

Fan
2009-04-13, 08:04 AM
I can beat up Super man it's nothing special people, anyone on these forums can do it unless they have a handicap of some sort, so can people PLEASE stop touting that as some sort of "Bat man is a god in mortal form" symbol. Please?

Tensu
2009-04-13, 08:29 AM
I can beat up Super man it's nothing special people, anyone on these forums can do it unless they have a handicap of some sort, so can people PLEASE stop touting that as some sort of "Bat man is a god in mortal form" symbol. Please?

Anyone can beat superman if they carry around kryptonite.

Not everyone will consider the long-term health risks of overexposure to an apparently harmless substance and take precautions.:smallbiggrin:

besides, superman isn't the only incredibly powerful person Batman has fought.

kpenguin
2009-04-13, 11:37 AM
I can beat up Super man it's nothing special people, anyone on these forums can do it unless they have a handicap of some sort, so can people PLEASE stop touting that as some sort of "Bat man is a god in mortal form" symbol. Please?

Really, do you have kryptonite? If you do, could you tell me so I can find where you can purchase a fictional substance?

chiasaur11
2009-04-13, 12:13 PM
You know, everyone is discounting Bats beating up Superman, so I figure a better example is needed. After all, he needs prep time and or Green K to take out the big S.

He beat the Incredible Hulk with his usual utility belt gear.

And bringing up the Black Mage Batman debate, you gotta remember the guy he was up against was Doom. Doom took over the world. Twice. (And only lost it because of his sense of sportsmanship. Doom is a sucker for a good duel of wits.)

Tyrant
2009-04-13, 02:54 PM
I was told that superman instantly loses all his powers in the presence of kryptonite. have I heard wrong?
That won't save anyone from either method I mentioned. He is miles away if he blasts you with heatvision from orbit which means he is quite outside of the effects. If he flies at you at supersonic speed he won't just instantly stop when he hits the kryptonite effect radius. His momentum will carry him right on through his target and beyond the effects of the kryptonite in seconds. As I said, unless he is being stupid, he has absolutely no reason to ever come within the effects of kryptonite if he really wants to kill a normal person. I am sure someone more creative than myself can come up with even better ways for him to kill people while staying beyond the effects of kryptonite.

I admit I'm not very knowledgeable of the watchmen universe or the number of missiles each nation did or did not have in the cold war era, however I must ask how much effort Ozy put into diplomatic means of ending this. people who can't be bribed are generally smart enough to be reasoned with. seems like he could convince everybody that blowing up the planet was a bad idea on some level.
Zealots can't be bribed and they are far from reasonable. There are other types of people who can't be bribed and who aren't reasonable. Bribery is also a short term solution at best. You also have to wonder if they are taking money from someone else with a counter agenda. His goal was more than just stopping the Cold War's potential nuclear conclusion.

As for your last comment, think about this for a moment. Any reasonable person should realise blowing up the planet is a bad idea. However, the entire world lived under this fear for decades because it was a very real possibility. It technically still is a possibility though it is presently less likely. We spent hundreds of billions (if not trillions) builing out nuclear stockpile. Building weapons that if they are ever actually used will be the end of our species in all likelyhood. That is absolute insanity to most people but we just kept on building bombs and we weren't the only ones. The Cold War has been over for 2 decades and we still have enough nuclear weapons to get the job done a few times over. Yet you expect people in a universe that didn't have some of the close calls we had and some of the diplomacy we had to be more reasonable than people in the real world who were perfectly willing to destroy everything?

and even if death squids were the only option, it seems like there would be better ways to implement that option to make it both more believable and less costly.
How could it be made more believable? As for costly, the shock of the destruction of a major city was important to the plan. If the squid flattened a corn field people might not ever hear about it (since they would be ash floating on the breeze before the news ever got out). It had to be shocking and devastating for everyone to stop and take notice. Again, look to the real world. We all hear about murders, robberies, etc on the news enough to no longer be shocked. A building gets blown up and people take notice. A war breaks out and some people take notice. If you want to get everyone's attention you have to use something big.

It can be a real downer, but sometimes there is no good choice and you have to decide who will die and what will be destroyed. I accept that there may have been a better way. However, from what is presented in the story, I see no realistic alternative that could hope to achieve the same results.

Arbitrarity
2009-04-13, 08:09 PM
Really, do you have kryptonite? If you do, could you tell me so I can find where you can purchase a fictional substance?
Oh Snap (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6584229.stm)

Towards the end of my research I searched the web using the mineral's chemical formula - sodium lithium boron silicate hydroxide - and was amazed to discover that same scientific name, written on a case of rock containing kryptonite stolen by Lex Luthor from a museum in the film Superman Returns
10char

Tensu
2009-04-13, 09:29 PM
*Facepalm* for the last time superman doesn't know I have the Kryptonite until he comes under its effects, at which point I will shoot him and skip away merrily. Well not me, but somebody who was evil would.

I said generally. You know, as in acknowledging the existence of exceptions. Most people can either be bribed or reasoned with, and Ozy could have topped anything anyone else offered. permanent solution? maybe not. Give him time to enact a permanent solution? defiantly.

I'm not asking Ozy to do anything president Kennady didn't do.

as for how to make it better:

Step one: a masked broadcast from satalite (Ozy probably has one of those) from an alleged space overlord demanding humanity surrender, threatens to attack with super soliders. Humanity of course refuses*.

step two: Send Squids to destroy facilities that make or fire nukes, you know, something an alien invader might actually do instead of wasting a city.

Step three: Send another message to all nations of the world in your fake evil overlord voice, boasting that your super soldiers are unstoppable and arrogantly announcing your next target, preferably someone both the US and Russia depend on, to unite them. Send your squids back to the lab and give them some kind of weakness for the enemy to find, the field them all at once in the announced location.

Step four: Humanity finds the weak point and kills the squid. The "mysterious cephalopod overlord from outer space" (wink wink nudge nudge) sends a message that he's retreating, but not giving up. If he ever sees weakness in earth again, he'll be back... with much greater numbers and no fanfare announcing his arrival. Humanity stops warring with itself forever out of fear that these aliens will return if they do.

No civilian casualties. no loss of major cities. Probably a lot fewer deaths total. More believable circumstances, and more lasting (makes it very clear that this was an organized attack by an alien civilization that can return and not just a one-in-a-million monsters come situation). as for the *, if humanity does surrender, put on a squid mask and start giving out edicts. when you're near the end of your life, you could pass it on to somebody else.

Tyrant
2009-04-13, 10:43 PM
*Facepalm*
That is exactly what you should be doing as you read your replies if you bother to reread the thread and what I am responding to.

for the last time superman doesn't know I have the Kryptonite until he comes under its effects, at which point I will shoot him and skip away merrily. Well not me, but somebody who was evil would.
First, this was in response to your comment that any ordinary human with kryptonite could kill Superman. That isn't a super villain, that's joe six pack. And that spun out of Batman beting Superman which my reply was attempting to show how Superman could kill Batman (or anyone else he decided to kill) in seconds and kryptonite would be absolutely no help at all. Second, the fact that he doesn't know if you have kryptonite is exactly why he won't come within 10 feet of you. He doesn't have to be in the same state to kill you, so why would he ever risk getting close?

I said generally. You know, as in acknowledging the existence of exceptions. Most people can either be bribed or reasoned with, and Ozy could have topped anything anyone else offered. permanent solution? maybe not. Give him time to enact a permanent solution? defiantly.
His ability to bribe is not infinite. And he has competition. That competition will eventually realise hitmen are cheaper than outbidding Adrian. So then he has a whole other ball of problems to deal with as well. Not to mention, suppose the Soviets simply say no to bribes and diplomacy? Or Nixon. Bribery is a half hearted attempt that could lead to some sompromised solution that only averts the problem for a decade or two. Not to mention it does absolutely nothing to chance public opinion or the general will of the masses. You need something spectacular to achieve that. Bribing officials who then go on to lead governments that are constantly on the verge of civil war because the people are absolutely against their policies isn't a better solution. He had to change everyone's opinion (or at least a large majority) and make them realise their own squabbles are petty in comparison. Bribery can't achieve that.

I'm not asking Ozy to do anything president Kennady didn't do.
Since you aren't bothering to quote I am assuming this is in response to my comment about them being more reasonable than us. If so, you are totally sidestepping the issue. In the real world we were more than willing to destroy everything for decades. Their world has some critical differences that make them even more likely to do that and you expect them to somehow deal with it better than we did? You are being unreasonable and naive. Perfectly sane, reasonable people were willing to do this. They still are.

Step one: a masked broadcast from satalite (Ozy probably has one of those) from an alleged space overlord demanding humanity surrender, threatens to attack with super soliders. Humanity of course refuses*.
And it appears we have arrived in cliche land. Let's hope they didn't have the same video games and comic books in their 1985 so they may actually take this seriously.

step two: Send Squids to destroy facilities that make or fire nukes, you know, something an alien invader might actually do instead of wasting a city.
This still leaves lots of nukes because again, Ozy doesn't have anywhere near enough to do the job. Another problem is that they die upon being teleported, that was the whole point. So, it will appear that the big bad alien overlord can't actually successfully teleport his squids. And you are still killing people.

Step three: Send another message to all nations of the world in your fake evil overlord voice, boasting that your super soldiers are unstoppable and arrogantly announcing your next target, preferably someone both the US and Russia depend on, to unite them. Send your squids back to the lab and give them some kind of weakness for the enemy to find, the field them all at once in the announced location.
And if they don't find the weakness to your squids (they don't have to look hard, they die instantly upon arrival) and they destroy said mutually involved target (my guess is the middle east). There's some more deaths.

Step four: Humanity finds the weak point and kills the squid. The "mysterious cephalopod overlord from outer space" (wink wink nudge nudge) sends a message that he's retreating, but not giving up. If he ever sees weakness in earth again, he'll be back... with much greater numbers and no fanfare announcing his arrival. Humanity stops warring with itself forever out of fear that these aliens will return if they do.
So you're plan is to hope that a mustahce twirling villain will fool the world? You of course know humanity will simply build a lot more nukes right? Not to mention, how are you going to be sure that humanity takes "no signs of weakness" to mean what you want them to take it to mean. One world government ruled by an iron fist isn't weak, for instance. Guess how that will come about. Also, I believe leaders will find his actions irrational and therefore suspect. If he could win by simply bringing more troops, why doesn't he? Not to mention someone could always backtrack the signal. Then you're screwed.

I also believe by giving them an actual enemy to fight, that they then beat, you are introducing too many possibilites of the plan blowing up in your face. Say they beat the squids a little too easily. Then everyone remains just as arrogant if not more so. You think winning Vietnam made the Americans feel invincible, what do you think beating an alien overlord will do to their ego? And what about Dr.M? Stopping 50,000 nukes may be beyond him. Stopping a handful of aliens should be quite possible for him to do.

Or suppose they don't figure out how to beat the squids. And they don't surrender. What then? To be taken seriously you have to keep escalating. At some point you were better off destroying half of New York. And that is a very real possibility.

No civilian casualties. no loss of major cities.
Which also means fewer people will care for a shorter period of time. Again, if they beat the aliens they will feel even more unstoppable. You have to shock people big time to really change things. Massive destruction and loss of life in a very short amount of time does that. Some half baked invasion that gets beaten back with no major loss won't.

More believable circumstances, and more lasting (makes it very clear that this was an organized attack by an alien civilization that can return and not just a one-in-a-million monsters come situation).

I'm really not seeing either of these. An overlord who supposedly could crush us decides not to for some random reason while making some comment obviously meant to inspire social change? After he gets his butt handed to him? If people don't have an enemy to fight back against they can't get past their fear of that enemy as easily. Is anyone really afraid of the Russians anymore? On any scale like they used to be? No. Do you know why? They collapsed and everyone can see that they can be beaten. If you know you can win you keep fighting. If you're not sure, you aren't so quick to fight. A beatable threat wouldn't achieve the same results.

as for the *, if humanity does surrender, put on a squid mask and start giving out edicts. when you're near the end of your life, you could pass it on to somebody else.
And what happens when enough people see through your lies? How do you handle the civil war? You can't get the same results by putting a face on the enemy.

I believe that aside from ruining the end of the book, your plan would be a half hearted approach that could possibly lead to an even greater death toll because you would be unwilling to kill a lot of people all at once. As a result you would instead drag it out for however long you needed to and likely wind up with unknown results. It's like the argument for using the atomic bombs on Japan. Kill a lot of people all at once and try to end the war fast, or invade and kill some unknown number of Japanese and lose an unknown number of soldiers.

chiasaur11
2009-04-13, 11:19 PM
We get it. You think Ozymandus is perfect, has the best plan ever, and Batman is lame.

Lets switch to a simple statement we all can agree on.

Squirrel Girl would kick both their asses.

Tyrant
2009-04-13, 11:50 PM
We get it. You think Ozymandus is perfect, has the best plan ever, and Batman is lame.
I don't think Ozymandias is perfect. I believe Batman stands an excellent chance of beating him in hand to hand combat and his main chance of success is avoiding Batman entirely. His plan is also imperfect and I admit there may have been an alternative. "May have been" being the important part of that statement. What I don't get is why some people assume there absolutely had to be a better way, and then they usually proceed to illustrate that they weren't paying attention rambling off things like "why didn't he just get Dr.M to make everything nice". That means they missed some crucial iformation and the whole point of the plan. Naturally they will assume there had to be a better way because they didn't understand it to begin with and think he was just blowing up New York. The start of this thread illustrates this point.

I also don't believe Batman is lame. I believe the core concept behind him is good and I enjoy his versions that don't portray him as the avatar of advanced planning with a blackbelt in everything. I also believe the writers have been allowed to make him something he never should have been. It doesn't help that people chant "First rule of Vs threads, Batman wins" like it's some kind of religion. The way people apparently view him is that he is like a living swiss army knife that has infinite attachments at all times. And still claim he is just a man. I am sure I can't be the only one who sees the contradictions here and question why people worship him for being something he isn't.

Squirrel Girl would kick both their asses.
I take it her Dues Ex Machina fu is beyond that of Batman?

Querzis
2009-04-14, 12:06 PM
Tyrant I'm kinda wondering if you ever read any Batman comic. Firstly, yes, he can most definitly do plans to defeat anyone whos powerfull on Earth. I dunno where I heard that but : «I see Batman more as an organization then a single person». He got lots of sidekicks who are almost all as smart as him, a large company and a police district that more or less work under him him at this point. Beside, yes there is lots of people in the DC universe, but not so much that Batman cant reasonably do a plan to take down all of them. He just has to know them, once he has a good grasp of their personnality and power it would take him one hour top.

No there is absolutely nothing stopping Superman from blasting Batman to bits from afar...but he woudnt do that. Even if he would go evil he still woudnt do that. Batman doesnt have plans to stop all his allies because he know their power or their weakness. Knowing their power is totally useless, everyone knows that and most people know their weakness too. He has plan to stop all his allies because he know their freaking personnality. If you would have read the batman comic, you would know that Batman is often beaten when he fight an enemy he never fought or heard of before. But you absolutely cant beat Batman twice because he can predict all your moves thanks to the first fight and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, lots of people in the real world are able to do that (even if they arent as paranoid as Batman about it). And then there is the Joker. The Joker is totally unpredictable which is why he win against Batman so often.

As for your so called 'smartest man in the world' well the main reason I didnt like the Watchen that much is because of him. Hes a freaking idiot. I dont like when someone tell me a freaking idiot is supposed to be the smartest man in the world. If there is one thing we should have learned from the cold war is that nothing can start a nuke war except a nuke actually blowing up. No matter how screwed up humanity is, nobody wanna start a nuke wars. Anyone know a nuke wars is bad for everyone and that there will be no winner. It doesnt matter how bad the situation was, it was nothing that coudnt have been solved with diplomacy since absolutely anyone should know that as soon as someone use a nuke, the whole world is going boom incluging you. Countries build nuke to intimidate other country, never to use them because if they do they got the whole world against them. And if you dont actually know who blew up the nuke? Thats even worse, like a lot worse. At best it would be a total world war and at worse...kaboom.

Now as for who would win...in an actual fight it could go either way, I gotta give that to Ozy at least, he is pretty good at fighting. But I doubt it would go to that. Both are planners so they would try to foil the other guy plan and if one of the two manage to do it, then fighting in a hand to hand combat would be kinda useless at that point. Now as for who is the better planner, Batman. Obviously Batman. Come on, everytimes I read a batman comic, when he tell us how he knew about something I'm always surprised. We always see some hints but, personnaly, I never realize what those hints means or what the villain is up too before batman point it out. But in the Watchmen, I realized what Ozy was up too long before the two 'detectives' and I easely saw through the many hints. Thats not supposed to happen. Batman would see through Ozy plan in a matter of seconds. Sorry but if there is a deux ex machina here, its Ozy. I never saw a 'smartest man in the world' so freaking stupid.

By the way the title is wrong. Some batmans by some writers are anti-heros but the original batman is obviously a hero. As for Ozy, at best hes an anti-villain and I'm being generous.

Tyrant
2009-04-14, 03:11 PM
Tyrant I'm kinda wondering if you ever read any Batman comic. Firstly, yes, he can most definitly do plans to defeat anyone whos powerfull on Earth. I dunno where I heard that but : «I see Batman more as an organization then a single person». He got lots of sidekicks who are almost all as smart as him, a large company and a police district that more or less work under him him at this point. Beside, yes there is lots of people in the DC universe, but not so much that Batman cant reasonably do a plan to take down all of them. He just has to know them, once he has a good grasp of their personnality and power it would take him one hour top.
And yet he constantly has problems dealing with an insane clown. Have you considered that if someone near his intelligence were to monitor Batman they would realise unpredicatability was the way to go and use that route? Making a plan to handle a planner. I am not saying that Ozymandias could out plan him (though I think it is at least possible), but I am saying that a greater planner could account for Batman in his plans and deal with him accordingly.

Also I believe Batman's planning ability is being seriously overrated. How many of these plans boil down to "Call the Justice League at opportune moment"? Is that really genius planning? I think anyone could figure out that move. He's a great planner (one of the best), but an hour to figure out how to beat anyone? Give me a break.

No there is absolutely nothing stopping Superman from blasting Batman to bits from afar...but he woudnt do that. Even if he would go evil he still woudnt do that. Batman doesnt have plans to stop all his allies because he know their power or their weakness. Knowing their power is totally useless, everyone knows that and most people know their weakness too. He has plan to stop all his allies because he know their freaking personnality. If you would have read the batman comic, you would know that Batman is often beaten when he fight an enemy he never fought or heard of before. But you absolutely cant beat Batman twice because he can predict all your moves thanks to the first fight and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, lots of people in the real world are able to do that (even if they arent as paranoid as Batman about it). And then there is the Joker. The Joker is totally unpredictable which is why he win against Batman so often.
You missed my point. The point was that if anyone decided to take out Batman, at this point they should all know he isn't going to pull any punches so if they have any brains they won't either. So, again, if Superman decided to take him out and he hasn't suffered recent severe head trauma he won't ever get close to him. Why would he? It's the typical poor writing of Superman where he forgets half of his powers that lets this even be worth discussing.

As for your so called 'smartest man in the world' well the main reason I didnt like the Watchen that much is because of him. Hes a freaking idiot. I dont like when someone tell me a freaking idiot is supposed to be the smartest man in the world. If there is one thing we should have learned from the cold war is that nothing can start a nuke war except a nuke actually blowing up. No matter how screwed up humanity is, nobody wanna start a nuke wars. Anyone know a nuke wars is bad for everyone and that there will be no winner. It doesnt matter how bad the situation was, it was nothing that coudnt have been solved with diplomacy since absolutely anyone should know that as soon as someone use a nuke, the whole world is going boom incluging you. Countries build nuke to intimidate other country, never to use them because if they do they got the whole world against them. And if you dont actually know who blew up the nuke? Thats even worse, like a lot worse. At best it would be a total world war and at worse...kaboom.
And yet we spent decades living under the real possibility of nuclear annihiliation. We spent hundreds of billions making nuclear weapons. We really were willing to go all the way. Is revisionist history making this hard to understand for some people? We used the first bombs we built and after testing the first one we knew what would happen. We tested our larger bombs to know what they would do. We developed a multitude of delivery systems and numerous strategies for their use. We have everything from tactical nukes meant to take out smal installations or a small part of a city up to 10+ megaton city busters loaded into mutli warhead missiles. Quite a range of weapons with no real plan to use them, don't you think. Do you really think it was all posturing? If it was just intimidation, you don't need thousands of nukes for that and yet that's how may we have. How many we still have, even 20 years after the fall of the Soviet Union. No one was wanting it to happen, but there were plans to go all the way if it did. Like our policy with our nuclear armed subs (unless I have heard wrong). If they are unable to reach command after a certain time frame they are to fire their missiles under the assumption command has been wiped out. Also, any attack from an NBC (nuclear, biological, chemical) weapon will possibly lead to a nuclear retaliatory strike not just a nuke being used. We even have plans to use our nuclear weapons against non nuclear enemies.

In the movie at least, the world was moments away from WWIII. Nixon brought the country to DEFCON 1 and had ordered the bombers to launch a first strike. They were on their way to the USSR. Nothing short of a miracle was going to stop it. There is every reason to believe a similar situation was about to occur (assuming it wasn't occuring, I'll have to dig out the book) in the book. The wheels of your impossible scenario were in motion.

Now as for who would win...in an actual fight it could go either way, I gotta give that to Ozy at least, he is pretty good at fighting. But I doubt it would go to that. Both are planners so they would try to foil the other guy plan and if one of the two manage to do it, then fighting in a hand to hand combat would be kinda useless at that point. Now as for who is the better planner, Batman. Obviously Batman. Come on, everytimes I read a batman comic, when he tell us how he knew about something I'm always surprised. We always see some hints but, personnaly, I never realize what those hints means or what the villain is up too before batman point it out. But in the Watchmen, I realized what Ozy was up too long before the two 'detectives' and I easely saw through the many hints. Thats not supposed to happen. Batman would see through Ozy plan in a matter of seconds. Sorry but if there is a deux ex machina here, its Ozy. I never saw a 'smartest man in the world' so freaking stupid.
I'm dying to know what clues I missed that said he was going to have a giant psychic squid kill half of New York to end the Cold War. Really, how did you see that coming aside from reading the book years after it came out? Unless you mean seeing he was the villain, in which case I can see it.

Sholos
2009-04-14, 04:43 PM
I also don't believe Batman is lame. I believe the core concept behind him is good and I enjoy his versions that don't portray him as the avatar of advanced planning with a blackbelt in everything. I also believe the writers have been allowed to make him something he never should have been. It doesn't help that people chant "First rule of Vs threads, Batman wins" like it's some kind of religion. The way people apparently view him is that he is like a living swiss army knife that has infinite attachments at all times. And still claim he is just a man. I am sure I can't be the only one who sees the contradictions here and question why people worship him for being something he isn't.
I agree with you on the point that Batman's ability to plan has become hyper-inflated. Used to, he was just good at coming up with a few contingencies. Now, he's got a fool-proof plan on how to take down any person in the DC universe (the first, unsaid, step apparently being to hit them with a stupidity ray).


I take it her Dues Ex Machina fu is beyond that of Batman?
Actually, most of Squirrel Girl's wins are legitimate. Her foes just don't ever think about how much trouble a squirrel can get up to.
_____________________________________________


Tyrant I'm kinda wondering if you ever read any Batman comic. Firstly, yes, he can most definitly do plans to defeat anyone whos powerfull on Earth. I dunno where I heard that but : «I see Batman more as an organization then a single person». He got lots of sidekicks who are almost all as smart as him, a large company and a police district that more or less work under him him at this point. Beside, yes there is lots of people in the DC universe, but not so much that Batman cant reasonably do a plan to take down all of them. He just has to know them, once he has a good grasp of their personnality and power it would take him one hour top.
This is the part that gets me. Batman's ability to perfectly predict his opponent's actions at every turn. That's just a stupid level.


No there is absolutely nothing stopping Superman from blasting Batman to bits from afar...but he woudnt do that. Even if he would go evil he still woudnt do that. Batman doesnt have plans to stop all his allies because he know their power or their weakness. Knowing their power is totally useless, everyone knows that and most people know their weakness too. He has plan to stop all his allies because he know their freaking personnality. If you would have read the batman comic, you would know that Batman is often beaten when he fight an enemy he never fought or heard of before. But you absolutely cant beat Batman twice because he can predict all your moves thanks to the first fight and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, lots of people in the real world are able to do that (even if they arent as paranoid as Batman about it). And then there is the Joker. The Joker is totally unpredictable which is why he win against Batman so often.
No, the reason most people don't win against Batman is because they suddenly become idiots in his presence, along with Batman cheating at Xanatos' roulette table.


As for your so called 'smartest man in the world' well the main reason I didnt like the Watchen that much is because of him. Hes a freaking idiot. I dont like when someone tell me a freaking idiot is supposed to be the smartest man in the world. If there is one thing we should have learned from the cold war is that nothing can start a nuke war except a nuke actually blowing up. No matter how screwed up humanity is, nobody wanna start a nuke wars. Anyone know a nuke wars is bad for everyone and that there will be no winner. It doesnt matter how bad the situation was, it was nothing that coudnt have been solved with diplomacy since absolutely anyone should know that as soon as someone use a nuke, the whole world is going boom incluging you. Countries build nuke to intimidate other country, never to use them because if they do they got the whole world against them. And if you dont actually know who blew up the nuke? Thats even worse, like a lot worse. At best it would be a total world war and at worse...kaboom.
I don't think you actually read Watchmen. At least, not very closely. If you had, you would have noticed that a GIANT SQUID blew up in the middle of New York City. Very obviously not a nuke. Very obviously (or so it was meant to seem) from out of this world. So there was no area in Ozy's plan that would have allowed any country to blame another for the attack.

Also, another thing that you must have missed was that Nixon was preparing a preemptive strike on Russia. Let me repeat that. Nixon was getting ready to nuke Russia. Meaning the start of a nuclear war. Obviously this situation wasn't going to be solved by diplomacy.


Now as for who would win...in an actual fight it could go either way, I gotta give that to Ozy at least, he is pretty good at fighting. But I doubt it would go to that. Both are planners so they would try to foil the other guy plan and if one of the two manage to do it, then fighting in a hand to hand combat would be kinda useless at that point. Now as for who is the better planner, Batman. Obviously Batman. Come on, everytimes I read a batman comic, when he tell us how he knew about something I'm always surprised. We always see some hints but, personnaly, I never realize what those hints means or what the villain is up too before batman point it out. But in the Watchmen, I realized what Ozy was up too long before the two 'detectives' and I easely saw through the many hints. Thats not supposed to happen. Batman would see through Ozy plan in a matter of seconds. Sorry but if there is a deux ex machina here, its Ozy. I never saw a 'smartest man in the world' so freaking stupid.
Here's the thing. Batman wouldn't ever get wind of Ozy's plan, because Ozy's plan would include some manner of hiding it from Batman. This means that Batman wouldn't ever plan against Ozy, and Ozy would have free reign to do whatever he wanted.

Also, I highly suspect the reason you never guess what's happening in a Batman comic is because all the little "clues" are constructed in such a way as to deliberately lead the reader down the wrong path. Only with the knowledge of the ending do any of them make any sense. Watchmen, however, included clues (very small and out of the way clues that you don't really notice on the first reading) that, should someone actually notice them and take the time to think about them (i.e. someone who takes their comic reading very seriously), pointed towards Ozy (though nothing really ever gave away the entire plan). So, while I could see someone figuring it out, it certainly wasn't "easy", unless you already knew what was happening.


By the way the title is wrong. Some batmans by some writers are anti-heros but the original batman is obviously a hero. As for Ozy, at best hes an anti-villain and I'm being generous.
Ozy defies classification. He's not a hero, but he's certainly not a villain, either. He's in a very gray range of morality, and I think the best thing to call him is pragmatic.

Also, side note: Please, please, please proofread your posts. It was very annoying to read this and very hard to take seriously. I had this image of this twelve-year old typing away without really thinking (no offense intended towards the twelve-year olds that can type a legible sentence). There's so many dropped apostrophes and incomplete sentences here that an English major would have a hysteric fit just looking at it.

Starscream
2009-04-14, 05:50 PM
Actually, most of Squirrel Girl's wins are legitimate. Her foes just don't ever think about how much trouble a squirrel can get up to.

Yeah, the basic joke behind her is that she comes up with the sort of solutions to problems that make perfect sense (for a certain value of "sense") but are terribly unimpressive and thus totally unexpected.

I mean, honestly, how would Dr. Doom cope with having two hundred squirrels attack him at once? What should he do in that situation? If there's an answer, it certainly not one he would have thought to prepare for. Even a Batman wizard can't have spells prepared for everything.

And it makes sense that if you give Deadpool enough tiny little scratches quick enough his healing factor won't have time to compensate. And that Modok will malfunction if some of his wires are chewed. And that Bi-Beast can't fight if he has to hold both his noses at once.

Yeah, if you tilt your head and squint you can see it. It's like one of those logic problems that kids can do easily but adults have trouble with because they over complicate things and rely on their preconceptions.

I don't know how she beat Thanos, but I bet it made perfect "sense".

kpenguin
2009-04-14, 07:22 PM
I mean, honestly, how would Dr. Doom cope with having two hundred squirrels attack him at once? What should he do in that situation? If there's an answer, it certainly not one he would have thought to prepare for. Even a Batman wizard can't have spells prepared for everything.

Doom's armor does give powerful electric shocks to those who touch it, enough to disable people and probably kills squirrels. His armor is also hard enough that he would just ignore the squirrel bites under normal circumstances. So, he'd probably just levitate up (as he's been known to do) out of range of the squirrels after the initial wave is killed by his electric shocks and feel free to shoot at their master.



And it makes sense that if you give Deadpool enough tiny little scratches quick enough his healing factor won't have time to compensate.

There are only so many squirrels that can attack Deadpool at once and their scratches wouldn't be very deep. Shallow wounds should heal very quickly and the squirrels shouldn't be able to scratch quickly enough to compensate before Deadpool shakes them off.

Heck, Wade could set off a grenade at his belt and kill all the squirrels and come out decently fine.


And that Modok will malfunction if some of his wires are chewed.

Only if the squirrels somehow managed to chew through to those wires through the the chair that has witsthstood superheroicly powerful attacks. The squirrels would also be electrocuted by chewing through the wiring, maybe even bursting into flame.
(http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2007/10/flaming_squirrel_ignites_car_i.html)

Yeah, if you tilt your head and squint you can see it. It's like one of those logic problems that kids can do easily but adults have trouble with because they over complicate things and rely on their preconceptions.

No, its more of a Encyclopedia Browned
(http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EncyclopediaBrowned), where the solution is based on faulty assumptions that seem true but really aren't.



I don't know how she beat Thanos, but I bet it made perfect "sense".

I bet it didn't.

Reverent-One
2009-04-14, 07:26 PM
I mean, honestly, how would Dr. Doom cope with having two hundred squirrels attack him at once? What should he do in that situation? If there's an answer, it certainly not one he would have thought to prepare for. Even a Batman wizard can't have spells prepared for everything.


Except he's had plenty of devices, rather simple ones by his standards, that would have dealt with 200 squirrels. Like the fact that his armor can generate an electric shock, and any electric shock that hurt a human sized creature would deal with a squirrel for sure. Or he could put up a force field, no squirrel could break through that. Or fly out of reach of the squirrels and blast them/squirrel girl herself. All basic functions of his armor.

The rest I won't argue with since I don't know enough specifics.



I don't know how she beat Thanos, but I bet it made perfect "sense".

I very much doubt it, her primary power seems to plot/love of fans. And yes, plot is a common enough power for a superhero to have, but she has it far in excess of the standard amount. With Thanos, most likely even the writers couldn't come up with a meagerly plausible way for her to win.

Sholos
2009-04-14, 11:03 PM
There are only so many squirrels that can attack Deadpool at once and their scratches wouldn't be very deep. Shallow wounds should heal very quickly and the squirrels shouldn't be able to scratch quickly enough to compensate before Deadpool shakes them off.

Heck, Wade could set off a grenade at his belt and kill all the squirrels and come out decently fine.

Don't forget, Deadpool's regen speed is directly proportional to the severity of the wound. So a lopped off hand will be back within several seconds, but a paper cut might take half a minute to fully heal. Or something like that.

Thormag
2009-04-14, 11:42 PM
Don't forget, Deadpool's regen speed is directly proportional to the severity of the wound. So a lopped off hand will be back within several seconds, but a paper cut might take half a minute to fully heal. Or something like that.

Isn't directly proportional the opposite of what you just gave as example? I think you meant inversely proportional.

chiasaur11
2009-04-15, 12:44 AM
Isn't directly proportional the opposite of what you just gave as example? I think you meant inversely proportional.

Actually, I think that's the proper grammar.

Directly means the worse the injury, the better the healing is. So minor injuries would heal slowly, if I'm reading this right.

Sholos
2009-04-15, 06:53 AM
Isn't directly proportional the opposite of what you just gave as example? I think you meant inversely proportional.

Chiasaur has the right of it.

WitchSlayer
2009-04-15, 10:27 AM
I don't know if this has been said yet but: Batman isn't an anti-hero.

Edit/Sidenote: Batman only beats Superman frequently because Superman considers him a friend. And Batman's a ****.

Dervag
2009-04-15, 05:36 PM
I agree with you on the point that Batman's ability to plan has become hyper-inflated. Used to, he was just good at coming up with a few contingencies. Now, he's got a fool-proof plan on how to take down any person in the DC universe (the first, unsaid, step apparently being to hit them with a stupidity ray).From the comics, he does have files on the weaknesses of a lot of the DCU's heroes and villains, and does have plans to take them down. They might not be 100% reliable; even Batman can fail. But they exist.

So it's a pretty safe thing to say that Batman is a great planner, a very skilled detective, and so on. Certainly, we have no reason to think he'd be a worse detective than the Rorschach/Nite-Owl team, who do manage to figure out more or less what Ozymandias is up to. And he'd probably be more effective at opposing Ozymandias than both of them combined, because he has more resources.

Would he win, even with time to plan? I don't think it's guaranteed. But I think he's got a good chance.


Actually, most of Squirrel Girl's wins are legitimate. Her foes just don't ever think about how much trouble a squirrel can get up to.Most of them ought to be physically immune to anything a squirrel can do, or capable of killing her with a thought, so I'm not sure I buy that.
______


Also, another thing that you must have missed was that Nixon was preparing a preemptive strike on Russia. Let me repeat that. Nixon was getting ready to nuke Russia. Meaning the start of a nuclear war. Obviously this situation wasn't going to be solved by diplomacy.
Point the first: Ozymandias did not know that nuclear war was imminent, because he had no idea what Nixon was up to. He was busy putting the finishing touches on his Fiendish Plan in Antarctica. The plan was meant to avert the long term risk of nuclear war, not the imminent certainty of it.

Point the second: Nixon was getting ready to nuke Russia specifically because Dr. Manhattan had left Earth. Which Ozymandias had caused. If Ozymandias had needed just a few more days to get his telepathic giant squid-monster ready, or if he had disposed of Manhattan even slightly earlier, there would have been a nuclear war no matter how brilliant his plan was.

Point the third: If Ozymandias had spent as much of the past ten years trying to ease tensions between the superpowers as he spent on Project Telepathic Squid-Monster, on jamming Dr. Manhattan's precognition, and on all the other things he had to do to make his real plan work... it's hard to say what he might have accomplished.

I'm not saying that Ozymandias could surely have averted nuclear war in some other way. What I'm saying is that his real plan wasn't a sure thing either, and that other ways wouldn't be an automatic guaranteed failure.

I think the main reason Ozymandias chose this plan, in particular, was that he had that kind of a mind. He believed in his own right do to whatever he pleased towards his chosen goals. And I think he was strongly predisposed to choose an option that was dramatic and world-altering, even if it meant killing millions to do it.
_______


Here's the thing. Batman wouldn't ever get wind of Ozy's plan, because Ozy's plan would include some manner of hiding it from Batman. This means that Batman wouldn't ever plan against Ozy, and Ozy would have free reign to do whatever he wanted.If Batman can't be perfect at detecting plots, how come Ozymandias is perfect at hiding plots?

KnightDisciple
2009-04-15, 08:08 PM
*snip*
If Batman can't be perfect at detecting plots, how come Ozymandias is perfect at hiding plots?

Because he's Ozymandius, who's not only perfect at hiding plots, but also perfect in planning, and perfect in moral clarity and pragmatism. And perfect in looks. :smalltongue:
Come on, Dervag, keep up with the boat here. :smallwink:

Tyrant
2009-04-15, 09:21 PM
Because he's Ozymandius, who's not only perfect at hiding plots, but also perfect in planning, and perfect in moral clarity and pragmatism. And perfect in looks. :smalltongue:
Come on, Dervag, keep up with the boat here. :smallwink:
Come on now. I know you're being sarcastic but even I admit he and his plan are imperfect and that Batman stands an excellent chance of stopping him. Dervag raises good points. His first point is correct. Even though I don't believe it is a huge stretch to believe Ozy did know, it isn't ever actually stated. His second point is also correct and it is what I have viewed as one of the real weak links of the plan. He knew he had to remove Dr.M because he couldn't counter his power if it was turned against him, but he also knew what would happen once he removed him. I believe that was his point of no return for the plan. His third point is also worth considering. I would like to think that he tried some other methods before settling on the "kill a lot people" option, but again it is never actually stated so who knows. Or Dervag is right on in his analysis of Ozy and he chose that plan for the reasons he stated.

Edit to add:
I also wanted to say that I agree with those saying labeling Batman an anti hero is probably wrong. Sure he's "dark", but he has lines he won't cross (like how he won't kill people) that I think keep him in the hero category and not anti hero. Also, labeling Ozymandias an anti hero may be wrong. Pre mass destruction the hero label would apply. After, I don't know what I would call him. I wouldn't call him a villain (I know, big suprise) but I think he is a little beyond anti hero.

Starscream
2009-04-15, 11:04 PM
Know what we need? An "Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny" of only comic book characters to decide these sorts of things.

SolkaTruesilver
2009-04-16, 01:04 AM
So it's a pretty safe thing to say that Batman is a great planner, a very skilled detective, and so on. Certainly, we have no reason to think he'd be a worse detective than the Rorschach/Nite-Owl team, who do manage to figure out more or less what Ozymandias is up to. And he'd probably be more effective at opposing Ozymandias than both of them combined, because he has more resources.


There's the flaw in your argument. Here are the major points:

1) Nite Owl and Rorschach didn't found what Ozy was up to. They found a link between Ozymandia and the "mask-killer" - and only because he needed to put suspicions off himself by hiring a killer. They had no idea of his overall plan until he revealed it to them - and it was too late.

2) Nite Own and Rorschach found information linking Ozy to Pyramid Corps only because Nite Owl managed to get into Ozy's computer. But many people think that Ozy deliberately made the password easy to guess for Nite Owl, so they would leave New York - and be saved (they were his friends, after all).

3) Most of the foreshadowing in the comic of Watchmen is given to the reader. Not to the investigators. they are effectively 4-th wall clues.

If Ozy didn't gave a fig about Batman's life, Batman wouldn't ever guess there would be any plan. There would be no murder to investigate (except if somebody stumble accidently on Ozy's plans by pure luck, as the Comedian did). Batman isn't omniscient, and if there is no reason to suspect the upstanding member of the society that is Adrian Veidt, why dig deeper?

Batman probably would have a plan to disable Veidt, since he knows about his past as Ozymandias, and isn't a fool. But I think it will come down to a battle of wits and deception between the two. Final physical showdown will mean that both will have failed at outmanoeuvering the other.

Ozymandias don't need his presence for his plan to come into motion. He'd probably go and fight Batman to a delay if Batman would ever get to know about Veidt's plan. But again... Why would Batman ever discover there is a plan to unveil?

tomaO2
2009-04-16, 04:18 AM
If you guys want to do a fight between these two characters, why not make it the older, "Dark Knight" batman?

Dark Knight and Watchmen are the two most celebrated graphic novels in of all time, after all. It would make sense to make it a match using a specific Batman identity, rather then the uber Batman who has varying power levels to suit whatever story arc the writers feel like doing.

Gnomish Wanderer
2009-04-16, 04:40 AM
I think the biggest problem is the Watchmen was on a much more (not completely, but close) realistic level than Batman. Batman can fght uberbeings because that's what he was made to do. In Batman's universe everything is overpowered and Batman has to be also just to cope. It isn't a fair fight. If Ozy was put in Batman's world he'd also be trumped up as the world works differently, so he'd win. If Batman were put in the Watchman world he'd be significantly weakened, and probably lose. What I mean to say is if they were put on the same power scale Ozy would win. Otherwise Batman would win.

Also for the friend thing, if Batman had access to the Justice League or whatever Ozy would have access to Dr. Manhatten and most certainly win anyway. I can't think of anyway the Justice League could beat Dr. M, but I guess that's also a different argument.

Starscream
2009-04-16, 04:53 AM
Also for the friend thing, if Batman had access to the Justice League or whatever Ozy would have access to Dr. Manhatten and most certainly win anyway. I can't think of anyway the Justice League could beat Dr. M, but I guess that's also a different argument.

But can you think of a reason Dr. Manhattan would bother to get involved? I don't think of him as someone you have "access" to.

Tyrant
2009-04-16, 03:23 PM
But can you think of a reason Dr. Manhattan would bother to get involved? I don't think of him as someone you have "access" to.
I really wouldn't bother even trying to involve anyone else. As I said I think it's lazy planning if Batman's plans end in using speed dial for the JL. I would likewise think it lazy for Ozy to do that with Dr.M. Also, as you said, there is the matter of him being able to convince him in the first place.

I think Gnomish Wanderer narrowed down one of the problems with this matchup. Everything in the DC universe is overpowered. It works for DC, but when comparing to other things unless they too are overpowered it breaks down.

As for the matchup, honestly I think if Ozymandias were suddenly to find himself in Gotham he would find out as much as he could about the world he was in. I think he would leave Gotham before he was crippled with depression as most sane people should. After finding out more about this new world, I believe it wouldn't take him long to realise it's a whole other ballgame. Where he had to create an alien threat, here there actually are alien threats. I believe his plan would center around trying to unify the earth against these threats and having the people with powers try to actually better the world. In his world, he and Dr.M. both used their abilities and resources to try to actually make things better and not just defend the status quo to the death. I think he would quickly realise the heroes aren't the ones to turn to as they are clearly more concerned with defending the status quo. His plan would likely involve the villains. Either using them outright or their technology/powers. I can't envision what exactly the plan would be, but I don't think it's a huge stretch to believe he would attempt to replicate any powers/technology he found useful. He would possibly go so far as to "enhance" himself, though that is probably a long shot as he seems to be a big believer in human potential. I doubt he would work with someone like Lex for a few reasons with the first being that Lex is almost definately the smarter of the two. He would also likely avoid someone like the Joker. The question would be if his plan would involve the moral gray area (doing something like killing off major villains or setting up the aliens to fight each other for instance) or if he would somehow be helping people like the Justice League. The other important question would be how long it would take him to amass a fortune making action figures of the heroes with the profits destined for "research" and more mind altering substances for future vision quests (it's a shame that was left out of the movie) and how long he can prevent getting sued.

WitchSlayer
2009-04-16, 03:46 PM
Marvel has more overpowered characters than DC. They just tend to be part of teams or be more minor characters.

Dervag
2009-04-16, 06:20 PM
There's the flaw in your argument. Here are the major points:

1) Nite Owl and Rorschach didn't found what Ozy was up to. They found a link between Ozymandia and the "mask-killer" - and only because he needed to put suspicions off himself by hiring a killer. They had no idea of his overall plan until he revealed it to them - and it was too late.Doesn't matter. They figured out enough about Veidt's plans to go looking for him and ask him some awkward questions. At that point, Veidt's entire scheme would begin to unravel.


2) Nite Own and Rorschach found information linking Ozy to Pyramid Corps only because Nite Owl managed to get into Ozy's computer. But many people think that Ozy deliberately made the password easy to guess for Nite Owl, so they would leave New York - and be saved (they were his friends, after all).Isn't that an awfully awkward and roundabout way of doing it?

I think Nite Owl, who is if not brilliant at least clever, legitimately guessed Veidt's password by ordinary social engineering methods. Ozymandias may be smart, but he's also got some very real mental issues. Like Rorschach (to a much smaller degree) those issues affect his behavior and can make him predictable to a saner person who thinks to ask the right questions.

Also, remember that this was 1985. Password security wasn't as big a bugaboo back then. Even the greatest genius may honestly make slips like that, especially in an era when nobody around him is telling him he needs to worry about the problem.

Sholos
2009-04-17, 10:02 AM
Doesn't matter. They figured out enough about Veidt's plans to go looking for him and ask him some awkward questions. At that point, Veidt's entire scheme would begin to unravel.
Yes, but at that point his scheme had already been completed, so it didn't really matter that Niter Owl was there in Antarctica.


Isn't that an awfully awkward and roundabout way of doing it?

I think Nite Owl, who is if not brilliant at least clever, legitimately guessed Veidt's password by ordinary social engineering methods. Ozymandias may be smart, but he's also got some very real mental issues. Like Rorschach (to a much smaller degree) those issues affect his behavior and can make him predictable to a saner person who thinks to ask the right questions.

Also, remember that this was 1985. Password security wasn't as big a bugaboo back then. Even the greatest genius may honestly make slips like that, especially in an era when nobody around him is telling him he needs to worry about the problem.

Again, it didn't matter that Nite Owl figured out the password, because by the time he got down to Antarctica, there was nothing he could do to stop Ozymandius' scheme from happening. Also, in the modern era, I would expect Ozy to have much better password security, as I would expect Nite Owl to have much better password-breaking security.