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tcrudisi
2009-04-12, 01:24 PM
In two weeks my gaming group will be starting a second game. We will begin at level 1. A few things about this DM:

1) Magic items do not come to us like they are suggested in the DMG. Instead, we pick them up fairly rarely, but they are often more powerful than what we should receive. A level 5 rogue with a +3 sword, for instance, or a level 1 character with an artifact sword that still hasn't left. My level 7 ended up with a level 29 periapt. We don't get many magical items, but when we do they tend to be overpowered.

2) This is perhaps the most important point: he likes to throw higher-level monsters at us. At level 4 we fought a level 14 Roper. Needless to say, two of us died. We talked to him, and now instead of monsters +10 levels, we get monsters +4 or +6 levels higher, pretty much every combat. Even our character with the best attack bonus usually requires a 14 or 15 (with circumstance modifiers like combat advantage) on the dice to hit.

3) He tends to throw smaller numbers of monsters at us. It is most common to fight one or two monsters at one time. Fighting a group of monsters doesn't seem to happen very often.

I'm wanting to play a Barbarian, but I want to optimize it so I'm not useless. I almost feel that a beginning Str 20 is required, just so I can hit more often. In most groups, I'd think a Str of 18 would be fine -- but not this one. I need every +1 I can eek out. (I'm working with the point buy given in the PHB.)

I lean towards Thaneborn Barbarian, but it's only a slight lean. If a Thaneborn Barbarian would be equal to, or more powerful than, a Rageblood Barbarian, I'd play a Thaneborn. If the Rageblood is slightly more powerful, I'd play a Rageblood.

I like the Dragonborn and Minotaur as races (I'm confident he will let me play a MM race if I asked nicely), but I don't have to play either of those. *edit* I was also taking a look at the Weapon Proficiency: Fullblade feat as my first feat, but I'm flexible. I like the high damage, +3 prof bonus, and High Crit property that the Fullblade offers.

So playgrounders -- help, please?

JackMage666
2009-04-12, 05:13 PM
I personally prefer Rageblood - Charge = Free attack and Move. You're a striker, extra attacks are where it's at.

I'd personally recommend an Executioner's Axe, rather than a Fullblade. For the loss of 1 Proficiency, you're getting Brutal 2, which means you'll be doing 3-12 base damage, rather than 1-12 (which adds up quickly with Barbarian's many [W] damages). Also, if you're a Bugbear or Minotaur, and you're going from the Monster Manual, you can make it large, which means you deal 2d6 damage with brutal 2 (so you're doing 6-12 damage, since you re-roll below 2), which is a huge jump in average damage.

Weapon Expertise will help the chance to hit, and Weapon Focus helps get a tad extra damage. Power Attack, despite the lowered chance to hit, is useful since you're weilding 2-handed.

NPCMook
2009-04-12, 05:28 PM
I personally prefer Rageblood - Charge = Free attack and Move. You're a striker, extra attacks are where it's at.

I'd personally recommend an Executioner's Axe, rather than a Fullblade. For the loss of 1 Proficiency, you're getting Brutal 2, which means you'll be doing 3-12 base damage, rather than 1-12 (which adds up quickly with Barbarian's many [W] damages). Also, if you're a Bugbear or Minotaur, and you're going from the Monster Manual, you can make it large, which means you deal 2d6 damage with brutal 2 (so you're doing 6-12 damage, since you re-roll below 2), which is a huge jump in average damage.

Weapon Expertise will help the chance to hit, and Weapon Focus helps get a tad extra damage. Power Attack, despite the lowered chance to hit, is useful since you're weilding 2-handed.

Minotaur no longer gains Oversized, they updated Minotaur and gave them Racial Feats in Dragon

JackMage666
2009-04-12, 05:46 PM
Minotaur no longer gains Oversized, they updated Minotaur and gave them Racial Feats in Dragon

One could argue that, since they don't have a DDI account, or a subscription to Dragon (I have neither), you go with the published source that's more easily accessible.

tcrudisi
2009-04-12, 05:53 PM
I don't have the DDI subscription, but everyone else in the party (including the DM) do.

I love the Oversize idea, especially with the Executioner's Axe. Is there any way to "legally" get it, since the Oversize was apparently nerfed?

NPCMook
2009-04-12, 06:07 PM
Bugbear as Jack suggested hasn't been updated yet, so it still has the Oversized weapon, but it lacks racial feats.

Izmir Stinger
2009-04-12, 07:00 PM
OK, here's what I think. When you have a brutal DM that wants your characters to die, barbarian may be the best choice for a striker. How often are you guys allowed to take extended rests? Barbarians are more powerful the more often your party sleeps because of how the rage mechanic works. If he consistantly makes you fight many encounters between extended rests (5 or more) then you should probably smother him with a pillow while he sleeps consider a different kind of striker. Rage strikes are where it as at for Barbarian burst damage and if you are having to save your rages for future encounters, you will be less effective.

As far as what kind of Barbarian to pick, that depends on party composition. How is your Leader? Is it a super-optimized LAZOR cleric with amazing healing powers, or a high STR, high INT Tactical Warlord that can give you guys massive bonuses to hit? If not, you guys are totally screwed you should strongly consider going with a Thaneborn as their secondary role is Leader. Since combat optimization is the overriding concern, Dragonborn is the ONLY viable choice for a Thaneborn as they are the only race with bonuses to both your primary and secondary ability scores.

If you feel that the Leader role is adequately covered, definitely go with Rageblood (and consider it even if the Leader is weak). You have more race options with Rageblood. Your instinct to go Minotaur is a good one, they have massive synergy with charging and the Rageblood Barbarian is all about charging. Other races worth considering are Goliaths (are jumping and climbing going to be very important? If yes, go Goliath) and also Warforged as they are damn near impossible to kill without a Coup de Grace and Orc (if allowed) because they have a bonus to charging and an extra self healing option. Orc is probably the worst choice as there are no racial feats for them and racial feats tend to be powerful.

Are backgrounds allowed? It is not very important unless he will let you take a background from the "Scales of War Adventure Path" (Dragon #366). There are two identical backgrounds in that article that will come in real handy if you don't play a Warforged: Wandering Mercenary and Former Gladiator, both of which make it so it takes 4 failed death saving throws to kill you. Sounds like that will come in handy in this campaign. Something to think about.

Thoughts on weapons: Don't get attached to the Fullblade if you expect this character to reach the Paragon Tier. It is a really nice weapon (you are right about needing every plus one hit you can get) but the most important thing to consider when optimizing a character for brutal combat conditions is weapon related feats. Many people swear by Heavy Blade Opportunity, and they are right to do so, but if you start with 20 STR you will not have 15 DEX by Paragon. You will never have 15 DEX. You must take a Weapon Mastery Feat at 21st level (assuming you survive that long) because crits are extra important for Barbarians, and you dame sure won't have the 17 DEX to qualify for that. Axes and hammers are what you need to be thinking about, despite the lack of proficiency. You can make up for the missing +1 bonus by performing sexual favors for sucking up to your DM so he will give you a Weapon that is higher level than you should have access to.

EDIT: After actually building the characters, I find my concerns about using a Fullblade are unfounded. The Hammer Rythym feat is still a good argument for using a Mordenkrad, but if you start with 20 STR, Fullblade is perfectly viable.

I would recommend hammers because no matter what you do you will be missing a lot against these over leveled foes and with Hammer Rhythm you can still do some damage every round. As a Rageblood, you will qualify for all the axe and hammer feats. If you go Thaneborn, you might not have the CON to qualify for all the hammer feats, and should go with axes. Definitely get a superior weapon. You can use a Fullblade in the Heroic tier if you want and then switch to an axe/hammer in Paragon, but the way you described your dominatrix' DM's loot policy makes me think you won't be getting an opportunity to switch weapons on short notice. I wouldn't risk it unless you know there will be a Ritual Caster in the party who can transfer the enchantment from your old Fullblade to your new Mordenkrad or Executioner's Axe at level 11.

I'm going to put together 2 lvl 10 barbarians for you in the Char Builder. I am a DDI subscriber so I might use some source materials you don't have access to, though there isn't much in Dragon Magazine for Barbarians yet. I will only give him basic equipment since I have no idea what kind of loot you will have access to.

Izmir Stinger
2009-04-12, 07:54 PM
First off, the Rageblood Barbarian. I went with a Minotaur.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Bjorkus Shatterhorn, level 10
Minotaur, Barbarian
Build: Rageblood Barbarian
Feral Might: Rageblood Vigor
Background: Wandering Mercenary

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 22, Con 18, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 11.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 11.


AC: 19 Fort: 23 Reflex: 16 Will: 15
HP: 92 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 23

TRAINED SKILLS
Heal, Endurance, Athletics, Intimidate.

FEATS
1: Weapon Proficiency (Mordenkrad)
2: Weapon Expertise (Hammer)
4: Toughness
6: Powerful Charge
8: Improved Rageblood Vigor
10: Student of Battle

POWERS
1, At-Will: Recuperating Strike
1, At-Will: Howling Strike
1, Encounter: Great Cleave
1, Daily: Macetail's Rage
2, Utility: Primal Vitality
3, Encounter: Blood Strike
5, Daily: Silver Phoenix Rage
6, Utility: Indomitable Shift
7, Encounter: Tide of Blood
9, Daily: Stone Bear Rage
10, Utility: Wellspring of Renewal

ITEMS
Hide Armor, Mordenkrad
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======

Notes on Ability Scores:

Starting with 20 may be necessary, but you can be a lot more well rounded if you are willing to start with 18. You can even get enough DEX to qualify for Heavy Blade Opportunity at level 11, if you are determined to use a fullblade. Consider the following alternative if you want to go that route.

Str 18, Con 16, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 13.

This also gives you more robust defenses which you may need.

Notes on Feats:

1: Weapon Proficiency (Mordenkrad)
Take a superior Weapon Proficiency at 1st level. I suggest this one.

2: Weapon Expertise (Hammer)
Must have for the extra chance to hit.

4: Toughness
Sounds like you can use all the HP you can get. If that turns out not to be the case, consider swapping this.

6: Powerful Charge
A strong choice. You have an At-Will and an Encounter power that can both be used with a charge, and you get free charges sometimes. Might even want this at level 2 or 4.

8: Improved Rageblood Vigor
This depends on how often you land the killing blow and whether you tend to face multiple opponents or solitary, powerful opponents. If it is the later, don't take this. (EDIT: Saw your third note. Swap this for Goring Shove)

10: Student of Battle
Seems an odd choice, but I figured you could use a healing power that is a minor action. The fewer encounters you face per day, the better this is. If you do marathon encounters back to back, consider swapping for something else.

Other feats to consider:

Goring Shove - This prevents the victim from retaliating against you next round unless they have a ranged or mobile attack.

Greathorn - Can probably wait until Paragon, but you will probably want this eventually.

Durable - If you seem to run out of healing surges faster than your allies.

Student of the Sword - Use the bonus with your rage strikes. You can't have this and Student of Battle.

It is unfortunate that the emphasis on survivability makes feat choices like Weapon Focus, Rising Fury and Deadly Rage hard to fit in. If the DM goes easier on you guys than you are expecting, these are all fine choices, too. (Edit: Read third note, don't take rising fury).

Notes on Powers:

I favored powers that give you temp HP (most of the utilities do)... figured you would need them. If the party's Leader is the kind that grants temp HP rather than actual healing, this will need to be reconsidered. I also shunned powers that grant enemies a bonus to attack you, despite them being fairly high damage. Enemies will have an easy enough time hitting you without your help. Blood Strike is normally a weak choice, but I figured you would be bloodied enough of the time that it would be more powerful than in a normal campaign.

I'll make a Thaneborn template for you later.

Izmir Stinger
2009-04-12, 09:11 PM
OK, here is the Dragon-Thane Born. While building him I discovered that, starting with 20 STR, there is no way you will qualify for any weapon specific feats, so go ahead and use a fullblade.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Shamash Blackscale, level 10
Dragonborn, Barbarian
Build: Thaneborn Barbarian
Feral Might: Thaneborn Triumph
Background: Former Gladiator

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 22, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 18.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 18, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 14.


AC: 19 Fort: 23 Reflex: 16 Will: 19
HP: 85 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 21

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate, Endurance, Athletics, Diplomacy.

FEATS
1: Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade)
2: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
4: Toughness
6: Improved Roar of Triumph
8: Enlarged Dragon Breath
10: Student of Battle

POWERS
1, At-Will: Pressing Strike
1, At-Will: Recuperating Strike
1, Encounter: Vault the Fallen
1, Daily: Macetail's Rage
2, Utility: Combat Sprint
3, Encounter: Daring Charge
5, Daily: Silver Phoenix Rage
6, Utility: Loss of Will
7, Encounter: Curtain of Steel
9, Daily: Black Dragon Rage
10, Utility: Deny Death

ITEMS
Hide Armor, Fullblade
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======


Notes on Ability Scores:

Again, you can get better defenses and qualify for those nice Paragon and Epic Tier weapon feats if you forgo starting with 20 STR. The alternative for Fullblade is:

Str 18, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16 (requires one bump in DEX before Epic)

or for Axes:

Str 18, Con 15, Dex 11, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16 (can bump STR+CHA exclusively)

The later gives you less REF but better healing surges (Dragonborn add their CON mod to the amount healed).

Notes on Feats:

Most of them are the same as the Rageblood. The two that aren't a a pretty nifty combo. Your Improved Roar of Triumph will reduce pretty much every opponent's defenses by 2. You can follow that up with your enlarged dragon's breath to hit a whole bunch of enemies. You sacrifice the +2 damage if you use Dragons breath and not a weapon power, but that's what action points are for.

If your DM favors small numbers of opponents, this combo may not pass muster and the feats can be swapped out. (EDIT: Saw your third note. Swap these for Deadly rage, Dragonborn Frenzy and/or Durable)

Notes on Powers:

I like the Thaneborn powers more, but most of the temp HP granting ones are based on CON so this build is more fragile. If you use the axe mastery ability score array, you could get a away with taking a few of them. Otherwise I focused on powers to keep you alive as much as possible, but Thaneborns seem to have fewer defensive options, strangely.

Conclusion:

This is my first real deep exploration into building Barbarians. I have to say I like Thaneborns better in general, but for the brutal combat conditions you will be facing, I'd recommend the Minotaur Rageblood.

Izmir Stinger
2009-04-12, 09:24 PM
I love the Oversize idea, especially with the Executioner's Axe. Is there any way to "legally" get it, since the Oversize was apparently nerfed?

There are no rules for converting brutal weapons to Large varieties. If you ignore the problem, a large Executioners axe is way OP. If they let you do that, go for it, as the DM seems to be trying to screw you guys.

Hal
2009-04-12, 10:02 PM
Orcs make good Rageblood barbs. You can easily start with a 20 in both Str and Con, and their racial power is excellent for extending your survivability.

If your DM is flexible, you can swing Half-orc racial stuff as well.

RTGoodman
2009-04-12, 10:17 PM
Orcs make good Rageblood barbs. You can easily start with a 20 in both Str and Con, and their racial power is excellent for extending your survivability.

If your DM is flexible, you can swing Half-orc racial stuff as well.


Also, Dragon has an article coming out in the next week or two (according to the Editorial Calendar) called "Ecology of Orcs," which will almost certainly provide full PC stats, racial feats, racial PPs, and a slew of other things.

EDIT: Bah, disregard. It was "Ecology of the Deva," but only "Creature Incarnations: Orcs," which is just a history of orcs in D&D. :smallyuk:

Izmir Stinger
2009-04-12, 11:33 PM
Orcs make good Rageblood barbs. You can easily start with a 20 in both Str and Con...

???

That would require 32 points. It is never possible to start with 20 in two scores without rolling, and if even one of your other scores is over 11, the PHB implies that DMs shouldn't allow it:


Roll four 6-sided dice (4d6) and add up the highest three numbers. Do that six times, and then assign the numbers you generated to your six ability scores. Apply your racial ability adjustments.

If the total of your ability modifiers is lower than +4 or higher than +8 before racial ability adjustments, your DM might rule that your character is too weak
or too strong compared to the other characters in the group and decide to adjust your scores to fit better within his or her campaign preferences.

Did you mean 18 in both? You can do that with a few points left over to put in CHA or DEX, which is a good array for Ragebloods using axes or hammers and who don't care about secondary defenses.

AngryRussian16
2009-04-12, 11:37 PM
Ive been playing a dwarf barbarian since the playtest, what I did was get 18 Str and 18 Con (16 before bonus). Only 5 move, but Howling strike adds +2 to charge movement.

If you are a dwarf, you can take dwarven weapon training, which gives you proficiency with all axes and hammers and +2 damage with them.

I took a Executioners Axe and a Mordenkrad and have been doing great with them. I took powerful charge for my L2 feat and that made my character better. L4 took Improved Rageblood Vigor, so I get 9 Temp HP when I fell an enemy and Recuperating strike also gives me 9 Temp HP

Izmir Stinger
2009-04-12, 11:41 PM
Ive been playing a dwarf barbarian since the playtest, what I did was get 18 Str and 18 Con (16 before bonus).

Am I missing something? That would require 25 points if you left everything else at the minimum.

Hal
2009-04-13, 06:11 AM
???

That would require 32 points. It is never possible to start with 20 in two scores without rolling, and if even one of your other scores is over 11, the PHB implies that DMs shouldn't allow it:



Did you mean 18 in both? You can do that with a few points left over to put in CHA or DEX, which is a good array for Ragebloods using axes or hammers and who don't care about secondary defenses.

Ah ha, yep. I fail at math. That's what I get for trying to post after driving all day.

Yakk
2009-04-13, 02:13 PM
Impact of fighting fewer +5 level opponents:
+to hit is worth more
+defense is worth less
reliable is worth less
half-damage on miss is worth more
status effects on miss is worth more
status effects that you can manage to land (you may need to stack a bunch of +to hit) is worth more
save ends powers are worth more, especially if you can manage to get enough + to hit bonus to land them reliably.
anti-minion, multi-target is worth less
auto-damage is worth more

Izmir Stinger
2009-04-13, 04:34 PM
reliable is worth less

I'm with you on all those, except for this one. What's your logical justification for that?

Doesn't matter for this guy's build though. Little known downside to playing a barbarian: They have NO reliable powers.

Asbestos
2009-04-13, 05:45 PM
Honestly an Avenger would probably be best considering the high ACs of the monsters you're going up against, but let's see what can be done with a barbarian...

Rageblood Pros:
Higher HP (which is good cause against such high level monsters you WILL be hit)

Thaneborn Pros:
Makes it easier for you/your allies to hit your enemies.


What everyone seems to be missing is that the features of the Rageblood Barb ONLY come up if you are reducing monsters to 0 hp. If you're only fighting 1 or 2 monsters then basically everything about this...
Rageblood Vigor: You gain the swift charge power.
In addition, whenever your attack reduces an enemy
to 0 hit points, you gain temporary hit points equal
to your Constitution modifier. The number of temporary
hit points equals 5 + your Constitution modifier
at 11th level and 10 + your Constitution modifier at
21st level.

Swift Charge Barbarian Feature
Encounter ✦ Primal
Free Action Personal
Trigger: Your attack reduces an enemy to 0 hit points
Effect: You charge an enemy.
... is a complete and utter waste.

However this...
Thaneborn Triumph: You gain the roar of triumph
power. In addition, whenever you bloody an
enemy, the next attack by you or an ally against that
enemy gains a bonus to the attack roll equal to your
Charisma modifier.

Roar of Triumph Barbarian Feature
Encounter ✦ Fear, Primal
Free Action Close burst 5
Trigger: Your attack reduces an enemy to 0 hit points
Target: Each enemy in burst
Effect: Each target takes a 2 penalty to all defenses until
the end of your next turn.
... is far more useful. The Rageblood's extra attacks /= more damage in this case, they equal a wasted feature that will almost never come up. At least the Thaneborn does something useful if it bloodies or kills an enemy and not only when it kills them. The Thaneborn feature comes up 2x as much as the Rageblood feature and in a fight against a single monster it actually has a chance of being useful.

Also, the higher amount of hp you'll have from being rageblood? Not going to matter that much considering the damage the things you'll be fighting will be doing.


Go Fullblade, a +2 prof weapon against monsters that much higher than you in level is not going to do it. If you're starting at level 1 and things are as rough as you say they are, before you start thinking about Hammer Rhythm you should be thinking "How will I be doing for the all those encounters I'll be in before I get to level 11?" and "What can I do to maximize my chances of even living until level 11?"

Basically, go with Izmir's Dragonborn build (the bonus to hit from being a bloodied dragonborn is also nothing to sneeze at because you WILL be bloodied)... and take something other than 'Enlarged Dragonbreath' at level 8, its pretty much only useful for minion clearing.



I'd say that optimizing your own to-hit (as well as the to-hit of your allies) is of far more importance when dealing with fewer, high-level foes than optimizing damage alone. If you are all about the charge... Thaneborn barbs can take Howling Strike as well and have their own 'usable on charge' powers, however I would advise against a charge heavy build because... against say, 1 or 2 enemies, how often will you get the chance to charge? Maybe once at the start of the encounter? Optimizing something that you'll use infrequently is a definite no. This makes the Charging Minotaur build especially pointless. If you're only going to be charging maybe once or twice per encounter, do you really need to spend 3 powers, 3 feats, and a racial trait for that? Don't think so.

Yakk
2009-04-13, 08:04 PM
I'm with you on all those, except for this one. What's your logical justification for that?

Doesn't matter for this guy's build though. Little known downside to playing a barbarian: They have NO reliable powers.
Well, reliable is an alternative to half damage on a miss for dailies.

I thought that reliable was worse for low-accuracy situations. But I appear to have been mistaken:

Let Q be the damage add from a hit over an at-will, and W the damage from from an at-will.

Half-on miss deal (Q+W)*P + (Q+W)*(1-P)/2 = (Q+W)*P/2 + (Q+W)/2
= (P+1)/2 (Q+W)

Reliable powers deal X := (Q+W)*P + (1-P)(X-W*P)
X = QP + WP + X(1-P) - (1-P)(W*P)
PX = QP + WP - (1-P)(WP)
PX = QP + WP -WP +WP^2
PX = QP + WP^2
X = Q + WP

Reliable powers are balanced for P=0.5. Thus
Q_r + W/2 = .75 (Q_h + W)
Q_r = .75 Q_h + .25 W

At P = .25, we get:
X = Q_r + W*.25 = .75 Q_h + .25 W + .25 W = .75 Q_h + .5 W

And for half on miss:
.625 Q_h + .625 W

For reliable > at-will, we need
.75 Q_h + .5 W > .625 Q_h + .625 W
.125 Q_h > .125 W
Q_h > W

Which is actually generally true! (ie, dailies do more than twice as much damage on a hit than at-wills) Bah, I may have gotten the result backwards.

Any errors?

Gralamin
2009-04-13, 09:13 PM
Well, reliable is an alternative to half damage on a miss for dailies.

I thought that reliable was worse for low-accuracy situations. But I appear to have been mistaken:

Let Q be the damage add from a hit over an at-will, and W the damage from from an at-will.

Half-on miss deal (Q+W)*P + (Q+W)*(1-P)/2 = (Q+W)*P/2 + (Q+W)/2
= (P+1)/2 (Q+W)

Reliable powers deal X := (Q+W)*P + (1-P)(X-W*P)
X = QP + WP + X(1-P) - (1-P)(W*P)
PX = QP + WP - (1-P)(WP)
PX = QP + WP -WP +WP^2
PX = QP + WP^2
X = Q + WP

Reliable powers are balanced for P=0.5. Thus
Q_r + W/2 = .75 (Q_h + W)
Q_r = .75 Q_h + .25 W

At P = .25, we get:
X = Q_r + W*.25 = .75 Q_h + .25 W + .25 W = .75 Q_h + .5 W

And for half on miss:
.625 Q_h + .625 W

For reliable > at-will, we need
.75 Q_h + .5 W > .625 Q_h + .625 W
.125 Q_h > .125 W
Q_h > W

Which is actually generally true! (ie, dailies do more than twice as much damage on a hit than at-wills) Bah, I may have gotten the result backwards.

Any errors?

Can't exactly see any errors, but I don't understand where your definition of reliable attack damage comes from. Wouldn't "X := (Q+W)*P + (1-P)(X-W*P)" be the same as saying

Reliable damage is The damage dealt by a daily multiplied by the chance to hit, added to what happens on a miss.

On a miss, the power deals as much damage as the full damage minus the damage an at-will attack would do
If I understand right, I'd imagine any error you'd have is for not taking account of multiple rounds of missing or something.

ocato
2009-04-13, 10:15 PM
I'm personally a fan of any race/weapon combination that grants proficiency and +2 damage (as good or better than Weapon Focus until Epic) with one feat. Goliath has the delightful bonus of being able to choose any two handed weapon for its greatweapon proficiency, and it has a nifty racial that helps you shrug some damage off.

I'm not an uber 4e optimizer, but that sounds like its worth a look.

Asbestos
2009-04-13, 10:51 PM
I'm personally a fan of any race/weapon combination that grants proficiency and +2 damage (as good or better than Weapon Focus until Epic) with one feat. Goliath has the delightful bonus of being able to choose any two handed weapon for its greatweapon proficiency, and it has a nifty racial that helps you shrug some damage off.

I'm not an uber 4e optimizer, but that sounds like its worth a look.

Nah, it only gives the bonus to simple and military two-handers, the superior weapons don't get the bonus.

Lord_Ventnor
2009-04-14, 01:43 AM
If you're going to be a Rageblood Barbarian, then take and love Storm of Blades as soon as you can.

Yakk
2009-04-14, 09:47 AM
A reliable attack deals Q extra damage over the base at-will W damage.

If it misses, it then replaces an at-will attack at some other point.

Thus:



X := P*(Q+W) + (1-P)(X - WP)
(1) (2) (3) (4) (5)

(1): The average damage from deciding to do a reliable attack on your target is
(2): The chance you hit, times the average damage on a hit, plus
(3): The chance you miss, times
(4): The value of substituting the decision to to a reliable attack,
(5): In place of an at-will attack you displace

(In response to where did I get the reliable attack damage formula).

Note that reliable attacks are worse against a relatively quickly killed 'alpha strike' target, because they actually probably displace daily or encounter attacks instead of at-wills.