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Hurlbut
2006-08-16, 01:42 PM
RAPID BLOWS
Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected Weapon Focus feat. You gain an additional attack using that light weapon.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Focus (Any light melee weapon), Weapon Finesse.

Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with a light melee weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat. This extra attack do not stack with similar benefits like Haste. Do not apply precision-based damage to the extra attack gained from this feat.

Special: A fighter may select Rapid Blows as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Well if you are allowed only one extra attack at a time, this would be nice for a "sword and board" character or at least anyone using a single light melee weapon like a shortsword.

martyboy74
2006-08-16, 01:45 PM
So it's a feat that gives you the effect of flly of blows, but only on light weapons. That seems a wee bit overpowered.

Hurlbut
2006-08-16, 01:46 PM
So it's a feat that gives you the effect of flly of blows, but only on light weapons. That seems a wee bit overpowered.
Look at the Rapid Shot.
Edited: Unlike the Monk's Flurry of blows, the penalty do not get reduced at higher levels.

martyboy74
2006-08-16, 01:48 PM
Look at the Rapid Shot.
You're right. And WotC's nuts. Oh well, I guess we knew that...*sigh*

MrNexx
2006-08-16, 01:57 PM
RAPID THRUST/SLASH

Prerequisites: Dex 14, Weapon Focus (Light melee weapon).

Feat requirements are generally odd numbers.


Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with a light melee weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.

A few questions:

Since you need weapon focus, is this limited to the light weapon you have focus in, or is it now any light melee weapon? If the latter, I would suggest Weapon Finesse as a more appropriate prereq.

Can I do this if I'm TWF with paired light weapons? Let's say I'm a 4th level elf fighter who uses paired shortswords, and I have this feat (for the shortsword, if that's applicable). Do I get to make 2 attacks (one with each hand), 3 attacks (2 with my primary, 1 with my secondary), or 4 attacks (2 with my primary, 2 with my secondary)?

Can I use this with non-piercing/slashing weapons? I'm assuming so, but I've got a guy with twin light maces and the Lightning Maces style who'd LOVE this feat.

Hurlbut
2006-08-16, 02:11 PM
Feat requirements are generally odd numbers.


A few questions:

Since you need weapon focus, is this limited to the light weapon you have focus in, or is it now any light melee weapon? *If the latter, I would suggest Weapon Finesse as a more appropriate prereq.

Can I do this if I'm TWF with paired light weapons? *Let's say I'm a 4th level elf fighter who uses paired shortswords, and I have this feat (for the shortsword, if that's applicable). *Do I get to make 2 attacks (one with each hand), 3 attacks (2 with my primary, 1 with my secondary), or 4 attacks (2 with my primary, 2 with my secondary)?

Can I use this with non-piercing/slashing weapons? *I'm assuming so, but I've got a guy with twin light maces and the Lightning Maces style who'd LOVE this feat.
Actually my understanding on extra attacks is that you're limited to one per turn or full attack action. That is, my understanding, generally you can't stack extra attack from one source with another from another source.

Well the prerequisite Weapon Focus is supposed to be for any light melee weapon (Shortsword or Dagger or Sickle). If you had Weapon Focus (Kukri), for example, you qualify for the Feat.

I could try to change Prerequisite Dex 14 back to 13. Perhap put in a third Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse as you said. I'm hoping it will get the point across.

Thray
2006-08-16, 02:33 PM
Actually my understanding on extra attacks is that you're limited to one per turn or full attack action. That is, my understanding, generally you can't stack extra attack from one source with another from another source.


That's not automatically true; it's always explicitly stated for things like haste, temporal acceleration, etc. that extra attacks don't stack. You should probably state in the feat description that the extra attack doesn't stack with similar benefits from haste.

MrNexx
2006-08-16, 03:12 PM
Actually my understanding on extra attacks is that you're limited to one per turn or full attack action. That is, my understanding, generally you can't stack extra attack from one source with another from another source.

Not necessarily. See, for example, Flurry of Blows stacking with TWF. They had to FAQ that because people were confused.


I could try to change Prerequisite Dex 14 back to 13. Perhap put in a third Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse as you said. I'm hoping it will get the point across.

The thing is, most things with a prereq weapon focus only apply to a single weapon; if they have a prereq weapon finesse, they apply to a broad category of weapons.

Really, I think its an interesting looking feat; I could see it being great for a swishy-pokey fighter, and combining well with anyone who weapon finesses... but I don't think it's worded as clearly as you think it is.

Ikkitosen
2006-08-16, 03:14 PM
I would not allow such a feat. There is a Kensai (fighter variant) feat that allows this with one specific weapon and gives -3 to all attacks, but that is restricted to a class that is based around one weapon.

Were-Sandwich
2006-08-16, 03:19 PM
I had this exact same idea today. So naturally, the idea is mine, and you stole it. Therefore I approve.

PMDM
2006-08-16, 04:05 PM
I think that the Dex requirement should only be 11. A lot of people are going to want this, and it only makes sence to let them use it.

Roland St. Jude
2006-08-16, 04:33 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: What's that I smell? Smells like Homebrew!

ExHunterEmerald
2006-08-16, 06:32 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: What's that I smell? Smells like Homebrew!
That was me, sorry.
I like the idea, had an insta-throwback to Soul Calibur when I saw it.
Raphael rapier stabba stabba hey!

Hurlbut
2006-08-16, 06:58 PM
That was me, sorry.
I like the idea, had an insta-throwback to Soul Calibur when I saw it.
Raphael rapier stabba stabba hey!
Not quite light weapon ;)

Hurlbut
2006-08-16, 07:01 PM
I would not allow such a feat. *There is a Kensai (fighter variant) feat that allows this with one specific weapon and gives -3 to all attacks, but that is restricted to a class that is based around one weapon.What prerequisites does it have? My current incarnaration has three: Dex, Weapon Focus (any light weapon), and Weapon Finisse. While you get only -2 penalty to attacks, it's still a penalty :)



but I don't think it's worded as clearly as you think it is.How can I word it more clearly?

ExHunterEmerald
2006-08-16, 07:06 PM
Hmm, really?
Because it really does fit the flavor of a rapier, as a quick thrusting weapon, and it is treated as a light weapon.

Oh well, you da maker.

Hurlbut
2006-08-16, 07:26 PM
Hmm, really?
Because it really does fit the flavor of a rapier, as a quick thrusting weapon, and it is treated as a light weapon.

Oh well, you da maker. Well you could really put in an exception that this feat can apply to Rapier.

ExHunterEmerald
2006-08-16, 08:56 PM
True, but then I could take any feat and unbalance the bajesus out of it like that. Generally I tend to use things as they're left...

MrNexx
2006-08-16, 09:27 PM
Hmmm... the rewording as of 8:21pm Central is plenty specific. However, I'm going to mangle it anyway.



DOUBLETOUCH
Choose one light melee weapon (or rapier) for which you have already selected Weapon Focus feat. You gain an additional attack using that weapon.

Prerequisites: Dex 15, Weapon Focus (Any light melee weapon or rapier), Weapon Finesse.

Benefit: You may take one extra attack per round with the chosen weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but all attacks you make in that round take a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat, and cannot strike with a weapon in your off-hand (though you may use a shield, or use a weapon for defense).

Special: A fighter may select Doubletouch as one of his fighter bonus feats.

There. It's a bit clearer, it doesn't have the weird restriction against haste, and it keeps people from double-dipping in two-weapon fighting, but not in sword-and-board.

Closet_Skeleton
2006-08-17, 07:03 AM
It also works with spears and Naginata.

I would make it piercing weapons only. They're substandard to other weapons anyway in pure damage terms.

NullAshton
2006-08-17, 08:22 AM
Sweet. So you could take this for unarmed attacks?

*laughs evilly*. Now my two-weapon fighting hasted monk has even more attacks!

Hurlbut
2006-08-17, 11:30 AM
Sweet. So you could take this for unarmed attacks?

*laughs evilly*. Now my two-weapon fighting hasted monk has even more attacks!
If you had noticed, MY version do not stack with similar benefits like Haste.

NullAshton
2006-08-17, 11:39 AM
If you had noticed, MY version do not stack with similar benefits like Haste.

Okay, so just a flurry attack with this. Hmmm.

Rapid shot stacks with haste, however?

Ikkitosen
2006-08-17, 11:58 AM
The pre-reqs for the kensai ability are that you *have to be a kensai*. You also have to be at least a second level kensai, as you can only buy it with a kensai bonus feat and they don't get one at 1st level.

I guess the question is do you think an attack with a light weapon is not more powerful than an attack with a ranged weapon (via rapid shot)? If you can say yes then go ahead and allow your feat.

martyboy74
2006-08-17, 02:16 PM
The only potential problem would be clerics using it with divine weapons. Otherwise very few people use light weapons, so, it wouldn't be too overpowered.

Hurlbut
2006-08-17, 03:02 PM
My reasoning behind this feat was that you could be savage with a light weapon such as a shortsword up close in combat.

Matthew
2006-08-17, 03:35 PM
I don't know, is giving them more attacks really the answer to the Light Weapon problem?

This is going to replace Two Weapon Fighting for Rogues straight out; it's considerably better and only requires one Feat.

I know the image you're going for and I like it, but I rather suspect that this is assumed to be happening anyway when you attack with Short Swords and such.

How about: 'Rapid Strike' or 'Many Blows'?

Hurlbut
2006-08-17, 09:49 PM
I don't know, is giving them more attacks really the answer to the Light Weapon problem?

This is going to replace Two Weapon Fighting for Rogues straight out; it's considerably better and only requires one Feat.

I know the image you're going for and I like it, but I rather suspect that this is assumed to be happening anyway when you attack with Short Swords and such.

How about: 'Rapid Strike' or 'Many Blows'?
Well for one thing, TWF give you an extra attack at a -5 penalty and only to that attack. With this Feat here, you apply penalty to all of the attacks plus the extra one.

Fizban
2006-08-18, 12:20 AM
Well, I would call it Rapidstrike, but that feat's already in the Draconomicon for natural weapons (name's taken). Rapid blow sounds good.
Now, in a recent thread, I read an idea that sounds simple, but feels exponenetian in potential: when you need something, adapt what there is.
Want a crazy weapon that would pretty much be the same as a greataxe?: use greataxe stats, and describe it in play as different.
Want a called shot feat for more damage?: use the Power attack feat, but with dex and only on ranged weapons.
Which brings us to: want a feat for an extra attack/round?: use rapid shot but with (insert new prereqs here). Problem solved.
Now, I would say allow any finessable weapon, but that would allow spiked chain, so let's say one-handed finessable. You get rapiers, you get shortswords, you get kusari-gama, you get anything the idea.

theswarm
2006-08-18, 12:36 AM
I suggest the name Serpent's Slash or Allegro Thrust
(just cause they sound cool)

Hurlbut
2006-08-18, 02:28 AM
Well, I would call it Rapidstrike, but that feat's already in the Draconomicon for natural weapons (name's taken). Rapid blow sounds good.
Now, in a recent thread, I read an idea that sounds simple, but feels exponenetian in potential: when you need something, adapt what there is.
Want a crazy weapon that would pretty much be the same as a greataxe?: use greataxe stats, and describe it in play as different.
Want a called shot feat for more damage?: use the Power attack feat, but with dex and only on ranged weapons.
Which brings us to: want a feat for an extra attack/round?: use rapid shot but with (insert new prereqs here). Problem solved.
Now, I would say allow any finessable weapon, but that would allow spiked chain, so let's say one-handed finessable. You get rapiers, you get shortswords, you get kusari-gama, you get anything the idea.
Um That's what I did. I adapted the Rapid shot.

Matthew
2006-08-18, 06:44 AM
Well for one thing, TWF give you an extra attack at a -5 penalty and only to that attack. With this Feat here, you apply penalty to all of the attacks plus the extra one.

Er, no it doesn't. You appear to be thinking of Additional attacks acquired through BAB. A Rogue 1 with Two Weapon Fighting using two Short Swords would have the Attack Penalties -2 / -2.

However, it would take a Rogue a very long time to get this Feat you are proposing, as the prerequisites require him to have a BAB of +1. On the other hand, a Dexterity Based Human Fighter could get this at Level 1 by expending all of his Feats instead of Two Weapon Fighting.

Given that Rapid Shot and Many Shot only allow Precesion Damage to count once, you should probably consider such a restriction for your Feat.

Suggested Names:

Rapid Blow(s)
Many Blow(s)

Hurlbut
2006-08-18, 03:10 PM
Hrm, I do not mean this to replace the TWF tree, but to give the sword and boarder and anyone using a light weapon (not two) an extra attack simply by training enough to make an rapid strike.

Fax Celestis
2006-08-18, 05:22 PM
Hrm, I do not mean this to replace the TWF tree, but to give the sword and boarder and anyone using a light weapon (not two) an extra attack simply by training enough to make an rapid strike.
Solution: specify that it is unusable with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (or any subsequent or related feats).

Fizban
2006-08-19, 02:48 AM
Um That's what I did. I adapted the Rapid shot.
Oh....how did I not notice that? Wow, I need to go to bed earlier....
Very well, carry on, ignore what I said.

kanachi
2006-08-22, 08:09 PM
While this feat does in essance turn two weapon fighting with light weapons into dust i still like it.

You could attempt to even it up with two weapon fighting by saying that this feat is usable for anyone using a single one handed fanessable weapon. You could also state that the feat prevents the use of shields but not bucklers in your off hand, which would represent the style of a fencer using his free hand for greater balance while fighting.

This idea may not be what your after though.

You could also creat a Improved Rappid Strike that requires two weapon fighting and allows you to gain an additional attack with both weapons as long as all the attacks suffer a -2 penalty also.

Soz about any crap spellings or general crapness its late here. :)