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gcb001
2009-04-17, 11:02 PM
Okay so first off, big sizmore/dirtamancer fan. Being able to lead the golems like that against so much and still come out on top is insane, especially since he is just a caster. But heres my question, is there really that much of a boost that a dirtamancer can give his golems that he is able to take on multiple warlords and their respective stacks of troops? It almost seems to me that his golems are on the scale of advanced infantry or heavies without him and with him are just that more powerful as a result.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0123.html
(above) The comic that registers that it was multiple warlords and quite a few enemy troops.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0124.html
(above) the comic that shows how he wiped out the enemy troops (at the cost of his golems) with just the warlords left and was able to still kill the warlords by healing his golem (metal golem im thinking?)

Wouldnt this make him on par with an advanced warlord? Just by leading his own set of infantry/heavies that he made himself he seems to one of Parsons strongest assets on the field.

He can create units that are very strong then keep them healed and at the same time lead them giving them an (apparently) significant leadership boost and guidence with advanced tactics.

On some levels i would almost say that Sizemore is a stronger asset on the field than almost anything else except for stanley and his dwagons or wanda leading a couple thousand uncroaked infantry (and that just because of the amount of uncroaked units). On a certain level i would have to say that i would take sizemore over wanda if i was forced to choose between the two as he would be a VERY powerful combat unit, able to dig tunnels and possibly help rebuild a city or help replenish the treasury based on his digging ability or how he can manipulate everything.

I honestly think that sizemore/dirtamancy is very unnapreciated on the entire grand scale of things.

Last thing, is there a plan for or something current with a list of possible unit stats? or base #'s that are available for reference? I havent heard anything about it or is that going to also be something that is probably going to come out with the book?

Kreistor
2009-04-17, 11:17 PM
Okay, let's first consider that Casters are Commanders, the lesser form of Warlords. They do not confer leadership bonuses, except to specific troops.

Now, when we talk about combat vs. Commanders, it is questionable which bonuses apply to them. That's not something we can really answer. Does a stacking bonus affect a commander? Do other warlords in the stack (or vicinity in the case of Chief Warlord) affect the attacked warlord?

What may be happening here is Sizemore, by tunneling below, is able to engage Warlords while eliminating some of their bonuses. This weakens them, while his golems are attacking in their own element, quite literally. Until we know more specific rules, we can't really know exactly what is going on with Sizemore's assassination tactics.

tKircher
2009-04-18, 04:41 AM
I doubt that there were more than one commander in the same hex as any other. That is, the enemies were spread out. They probably didn't confer their full bonus.

They were also certainly "flat-footed", which i would be greatly surprised if it didn't confer some penalties to defenders, or at least negate some bonuses.

Add that to the above.



Also, while dirtamancy may be extremely powerful, remember that the volcano was an environmental trap, and that dirtamancy would be fairly useless in areas not containing underground tunnels and corridors.

You could argue "who is best for fighting" as much as you want, but i get the strong impression that which caster is strongest depends on their surrounding. Sizemore if he has an entire mountain at his beck and call, Wanda if she has fields of dead infantry, and so on.

greywords
2009-04-18, 05:25 AM
My impression was that Sizemore built the golems with great resource expenditure and time devoted to the more powerful ones (like an uncroaked unit being more powerful if more time and energy is devoted to its creation). While he was able to take out many warlords and commanders, he did so with surgical strikes directly against them. In the underground battle, he'd had numerous turns to build up a trap system that allowed him to spring all kinds of goodies centrally, thus handling a much larger group.

BLANDCorporatio
2009-04-18, 06:17 AM
Given that most people stay on the ground most of the time, I think Dirtamancy has proven its scariness.

gcb001
2009-04-21, 01:22 AM
(completely seperate to the topic could someone pls tell me how to work with the quote tool? im a forum newb and recently turned lurker. Thank you!)

"Okay, let's first consider that Casters are Commanders, the lesser form of Warlords. They do not confer leadership bonuses, except to specific troops.

Now, when we talk about combat vs. Commanders, it is questionable which bonuses apply to them. That's not something we can really answer. Does a stacking bonus affect a commander? Do other warlords in the stack (or vicinity in the case of Chief Warlord) affect the attacked warlord?"
by kriestor

i believe that from the overall language a caster/commander gives a leadership bonus to specific troops but maybe at a specific level? In parsons klog he doesnt elude to a variable bonus but more like a fixed amount. Either way you look at it though the amount is enough to make sure that his golems are very tough. If nothing else the attack value of i believe what was the metal golem was enough to finish off two wounded enemy warlords in two hits. So unless each warlord was on their last legs the golem hit em really hard.

"What may be happening here is Sizemore, by tunneling below, is able to engage Warlords while eliminating some of their bonuses. This weakens them, while his golems are attacking in their own element, quite literally. Until we know more specific rules, we can't really know exactly what is going on with Sizemore's assassination tactics."
by kriestor

very true, hadnt thought of that completely. but would he eliminate their bonuses? i got the idea that he might just equalize the playing field a little more.

"Also, while dirtamancy may be extremely powerful, remember that the volcano was an environmental trap, and that dirtamancy would be fairly useless in areas not containing underground tunnels and corridors."
by tkircher

also true but at the same time in any area where there is a dirtamancer for at least a turn would he have the ability to start some small tunnels? it seemed to me like he was able to dig pretty darn fast comparably.

"My impression was that Sizemore built the golems with great resource expenditure and time devoted to the more powerful ones (like an uncroaked unit being more powerful if more time and energy is devoted to its creation). While he was able to take out many warlords and commanders, he did so with surgical strikes directly against them. In the underground battle, he'd had numerous turns to build up a trap system that allowed him to spring all kinds of goodies centrally, thus handling a much larger group."
by greyword

first off i know that he couldnt handle everything with just his group of golems without the traps. my bad if it came across that way. I think about 2000+ jestone troops went into the tunnels? with at least 2 warlords. Even with a plethora of traps at his command he would still have to do a considerable amount of damage with his golems to take care of nearly all the others left over from the traps.

Also even if he had to devote a lot of time and energy to the golems themselves my point is more that without anything other than his surroundings a dirtamancer can create tough combat units that he can use as his own bodyguards. and then the city can create units on its own that other warlords can use. Essentially making him less of a cost liability than ever.

"Given that most people stay on the ground most of the time, I think Dirtamancy has proven its scariness."
by bland

rightly so :smallsmile:

greywords
2009-04-21, 02:23 AM
(completely seperate to the topic could someone pls tell me how to work with the quote tool? im a forum newb and recently turned lurker. Thank you!)

Click the "Quote" button on someone's post to see an example. The tags are [ quote=username;threadid ] to start and [ /quote ] to end


first off i know that he couldnt handle everything with just his group of golems without the traps. my bad if it came across that way. I think about 2000+ jestone troops went into the tunnels? with at least 2 warlords. Even with a plethora of traps at his command he would still have to do a considerable amount of damage with his golems to take care of nearly all the others left over from the traps.

Also even if he had to devote a lot of time and energy to the golems themselves my point is more that without anything other than his surroundings a dirtamancer can create tough combat units that he can use as his own bodyguards. and then the city can create units on its own that other warlords can use. Essentially making him less of a cost liability than ever.

Dirtamancers are totally overpowered, at least when given the right terrain. I bet he would have a tougher time in naval warfare or an air battle. Still, as we see in comic 121 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0121.html), there were also tons of gobwins underground engaging the Jetstone troops. Sizemore and his golems were mostly intended to take out the leadership and heavy troops, it seems.

Kreistor
2009-04-21, 08:55 AM
Okay, let's first consider that Casters are Commanders, the lesser form of Warlords. They do not confer leadership bonuses, except to specific troops.

Now, when we talk about combat vs. Commanders, it is questionable which bonuses apply to them. That's not something we can really answer. Does a stacking bonus affect a commander? Do other warlords in the stack (or vicinity in the case of Chief Warlord) affect the attacked warlord?


i believe that from the overall language a caster/commander gives a leadership bonus to specific troops but maybe at a specific level? In parsons klog he doesnt elude to a variable bonus but more like a fixed amount. Either way you look at it though the amount is enough to make sure that his golems are very tough. If nothing else the attack value of i believe what was the metal golem was enough to finish off two wounded enemy warlords in two hits. So unless each warlord was on their last legs the golem hit em really hard.

You misunderstand. I wasn't talking about what bonuses they give to others, I was talking about what bonuses do Commanders receive in combat. Are they, for instance, affected by their own Leadership bonus? Stacking bonus? Dance Fighting certainly yes. If they are unaffected by some bonuses, and since we know that PArson believes this system is all about stacking bonuses, the Officer classes may be relatively easy to destroy by units with high bonuses. That's why Sizemore succeeds. He has a full stack of Golems for a +8 bonus. He gives them a high leadership bonus, because of the exception. They also receive Parson's leadership bonus for being in the city with him. The enemy commanders may not be receiving stacking bonuses, leadership may come only from Ansom, at 1/2 bonus for being in the same hex. This would leave ehtme very weak relative to Sizemore's golems, and with Sizemore also bringing them in by surprise (another bonus?), they have little chance to defend themselves.


also true but at the same time in any area where there is a dirtamancer for at least a turn would he have the ability to start some small tunnels? it seemed to me like he was able to dig pretty darn fast comparably.

We do not have examples of other creation classes to know how quickly they can create units. Dolllamancer might be able to do it (may be voodoo doll, too, which might not). Wnda can create units instantly, with the right conditions (available corpses). What can a Changamancer do? Withso few reference points, presuming Dirtamancy is more powerful than other magics is entirely unsubstantiated at this point. For instance, what kind of damage could a Master Shockamancer have done to the massed troops of the RCC? The damage could have been incomparable.