How much exp is two levels, again?

[Brewdude]

So, the twoll leveled twice for killing Ansom.
But Sizemore leveled ONLY twice for being one third of the link that sprung the dirtamancy trap that killed Ansom's whole army.

Are twoll levels that much smaller than caster levels? Was Sizemore that much higher level than the twoll to make his levels that much smaller....

Or was Ansom just that badarse?

You tell me. Do you think Maggie and Wanda also leveled twice, or some other number? How much xp does Parson get for leading the whole thing? Do traps give reduced xp? Hmmmmmmm.

[T-O-E]

Bogroll was probably only level 1 or 2, so he wouldn't need as much xp to advance.

Sizemore, however, is probably mid-level.

[Kreistor]

If Bogroll was L1 or 2 and Ansom L9, for DnD the exp charrt is broken. THe amount of exp would be adjudicated by the DM.

But for SIzemore, he fled from the volcano's fight, and so gained no experience. Sizemore gained exp for:

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0120.html)
and this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0124.html)
and this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0139.html)
and this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0145.html)

And for anything off-panel that he may have done. He was targetting comand throughout, and we know that during the Tunnels period, he did a great amount of killing off-panel. We don't see him in a lot of the time period of the battle, but he had orders and had to have been obeying them, so there are other minor command units he would have been targeting.

[memnarch]

Also, don't forget that Sizemore led the fight in the underground. Given that the trimancer "retreated" from Gobwin Knob, I wouldn't be surprised if no exp was gained from the volcano.

/\Ninja!

[pclips]

Higher levels cost more, on a kind of exponential scale that may vary by a large number of factors including the type of unit leveling, the type and number and levels of units croaked, and other activities involving the leveling unit's special abilities that may not even constitute combat. But the main thing is that you should imagine something like a logarithmic curve (not saying it literally is logarithmic), whereby low levels are achievable with a little combat, but levels above 10 or 11 become extremely difficult to obtain, and something like a level 20 unit is completely unheard of. Also notable is that not all of the numbers are available to the units and commanders to calculate, and so the existence of a predicable system of leveling at all is in the realm of the theoretical Mathamancers. Units cannot actually predict when they are going to level (Jillian is being flippant when she tells the Archons, "Cmon, it'll be fun. You'll level." but it would be a reasonable bet they might if they took out a stack of dwagons.)

This stuff needs to go into the wiki.

[ishnar]

But the main thing is that you should imagine something like a logarithmic curve (not saying it literally is logarithmic),

So close. I want a logarithmic leveling system :)

5 people in a room. New guy walks in and askes each one what level they are. They answer.

1.1
1.5
2
2.1
2.4

New guy says, "I'm level 3, flee or die"

They flee as fast as they possibly can.

[pclips]

Ah, but it's not like that. The relative combat power by level is NOT logarithmic or exponential.

[Kreistor]

Pclips, could you be a little clearer?

What is the relative power of level advancement, ignoring exp requirements? Linear, or logarithmic? That is, if each level raises your abilities by the same amount, it is linear (Ie. if a Level 2 warlord has leadership 2 and level 15 has leadership 15. the system is linear,). If leveling suffers the law of diminishing returns, then it is logarithmic (level 2 warlord is leadership 2, level 15 warlord is leadership 6). If each level raises your power more than the last, then it would be exponential.

Is the amount of exp required to gain a new level exponential? That is, each new level requires killing more creatures of your equivalent level? For instance, if level 1 to level 2 requires killing 3 level 1 creatures, but level 10 to level 11 requires killing 100 level 10 creatures, the experience table is exponential. If gaining level 11 requries 3 level 10 kills, but level 10 creatures are just very rare, the system is actually linear, even though it may take a longer time to reach it.

If you mix relative power vs. time with relative power vs. level, you wind up with a misrepresentation of the actual effects of level advancement.

[ishnar]

Ah, but it's not like that. The relative combat power by level is NOT logarithmic or exponential.

Yea, I get it. I was just thinking a logarithmic leveling system would be interesting, just for variety you understand.

[pclips]

Pclips, could you be a little clearer?

What is the relative power of level advancement, ignoring exp requirements? Linear, or logarithmic? That is, if each level raises your abilities by the same amount, it is linear (Ie. if a Level 2 warlord has leadership 2 and level 15 has leadership 15. the system is linear,). If leveling suffers the law of diminishing returns, then it is logarithmic (level 2 warlord is leadership 2, level 15 warlord is leadership 6). If each level raises your power more than the last, then it would be exponential.

Is the amount of exp required to gain a new level exponential? That is, each new level requires killing more creatures of your equivalent level? For instance, if level 1 to level 2 requires killing 3 level 1 creatures, but level 10 to level 11 requires killing 100 level 10 creatures, the experience table is exponential. If gaining level 11 requries 3 level 10 kills, but level 10 creatures are just very rare, the system is actually linear, even though it may take a longer time to reach it.

If you mix relative power vs. time with relative power vs. level, you wind up with a misrepresentation of the actual effects of level advancement.

You have to understand that the denizens of Erfworld don't see a lot of what a player would see in a game. Including XP. Leveling is a surprise to them, and XP (or the equivalent) is a theory (albeit a pretty solid one). The people are in the dark and guessing, and it's kind of hard to build an XP table by actually finding 10 new level 1 Marbits to croak, discovering that you level, then discovering through experimentation that you need to croak 50 to level again.

From a narrative perspective, the fudge factor is high. But that does not mean there is not one consistent mathematical system governing leveling. It's just opaque to the characters and readers at this time.

The general answer to your question is that power gains are linear and level requirements are exponential. It's not perfectly simple as all that, but to generalize, yes.

BTW you have made me record my first podcast for the new website with this question. :smallsmile:

[Justyn]

You have to understand that the denizens of Erfworld don't see a lot of what a player would see in a game. Including XP. Leveling is a surprise to them, and XP (or the equivalent) is a theory (albeit a pretty solid one). The people are in the dark and guessing, and it's kind of hard to build an XP table by actually finding 10 new level 1 Marbits to croak, discovering that you level, then discovering through experimentation that you need to croak 50 to level again.

From a narrative perspective, the fudge factor is high. But that does not mean there is not one consistent mathematical system governing leveling. It's just opaque to the characters and readers at this time.

The general answer to your question is that power gains are linear and level requirements are exponential. It's not perfectly simple as all that, but to generalize, yes.

BTW you have made me record my first podcast for the new website with this question. :smallsmile:

Out of curiosity: is croaking (or at least defeating) units the only way of leveling, or can units train to raise their level?

[Kreistor]

BTW you have made me record my first podcast for the new website with this question. :smallsmile:

/bow

Glad to be of service. If you're ever short of topics, just ask. I'm usually pretty good at coming up with questions.

Yes, I understand that this was a generalization. We simplify rules to make games playable in a human time frame: that's more typical in simulation games, but that's what non-real games base their rules on. A real leveling system would have to account for mental attitudes, the weather, the position of the planets, and thousands of other things. (Heck, my marks depended on whether the prof was in a bad mood when he wrote the exam.) AA real world leveling system would be beyond our complete understanding in the same way teaching is: we can figure out what works for the majority, but there will always be exceptions. If I'm distracted by my homelife, I won't be learning quite as fast as normal. Or maybe I'm so focused that nothing else matters, and I am zoning in, being much better than normal. So, yeah, I understand that this is not a hard and fast rule for Erfworlders.

But I hope you also took something else out of this. Though I understood this was a generalization, I wanted to point out that a certain exactness is required in explanation. The reason I asked the questions in this way was to indicate that you need to be exact when describing the rules of Erfworld. Sometimes you unintentionally leave interpretation room. This time you described the experience system as logarithmic, thinking we'd know what that meant. What you meant was that the power of a unit was logarithmically proportional to the number of kills committed by the unit, which typically will also express as logarithmic over time, too. That describes a logarithmic system, but without reference points, the logarithm equation could have applied to power vs. level, or any of a number of things. I know you obfuscate a lot of things intentionally (heck, I'd have half the fun I do around here if you didn't), but you're sometimes doing it when trying to explain, and that's not good.

[Alexei P]

BTW you have made me record my first podcast for the new website with this question. :smallsmile:

If you're ever looking for more fan questions to clear in the future, another common "question mark" is the "becoming barbarian" mechanic. I think we're still unsure on when exactly "orphan" units are supposed to disband, freeze in time, or become free agents.

And what's Parson current status, anyway? Barbarian? Still bound to Stanley? Both?

[tKircher]

Out of curiosity: is croaking (or at least defeating) units the only way of leveling, or can units train to raise their level?


a large number of factors including the type of unit leveling, the type and number and levels of units croaked, and other activities involving the leveling unit's special abilities that may not even constitute combat.

QED, units can level without combat. Hippiemancers would be pretty useless otherwise.

But Rob will surely have more details on training and restrictions and stuff.

[T-O-E]

I assume they'd just get xp from casting spells.

[the_tick_rules]

Most likely since sizemore is much higher level due to his master classness he needed to croak a whole lot more to level. But then again maybe the xp was divided amongst the three casters? It was a team effort. Also I'm sure he's done work not inculding volcano explosion. We dunno how much he got from that one job. She just said two levels since last time she saw him.

[tomaO2]

We appreciate you answering the technical questions we have PClips. Thanks you.

My main surprise was that, while there is no explicit limit to levels, realistically, it was somewhere below twenty. Very interesting, I had assumed that ten was the maximum.

I get most of the rest, I think. A lot of the physical benefits are small, for instance. It's not like in D&D where you go from having one die worth of hit points to having ten times the number later on along with. An infantry can still kill off a high powered leader with a single shot. Beginning stats mean more as to how powerful you are.

Also, certain items can boost scores. So Parson's sword can give an extra 5 leadership (or more maybe) but Parson's stat is still at two until he can level. Also, Jillian's sword allows her to kill a dwagon that she normally would never be able to kill no matter how high she leveled because it gives supreme damage. I guess magic stat boosting items are among the multipliers that are so essential to Erfworld combat.

Two things I'm unsure of though.

One, there are ways other then combat to gain xp? What are they? I'd guess magic use might be one of them.

Two, the whole master class for the mancers... Is that a separate system? For instance, perhaps casting magic goes directly to improving your caster level and has nothing to do with leveling in the traditional sense? I assume there is a much smaller leveling system for that if so. Perhaps something like four levels or so? Might be listed as Amateur (for those that dabble in mancery that is not their specialty), Apprentice (the starting level for a mancer's specialty), Adept and Master (which would be the maximum level). I also wonder how hard it is to become a master. Sounds like there are a lot of them. All of Stanley's mancers seem to be master level (except possibly Misty)

Also, if you would be so kind, does the the fact that Parson's pupils stopped being drawn after the fist thirty or so pages have any plot relevance? I'm not asking what that could be if so but I'd like to know either way. I'm pretty sure it doesn't but have long wanted confirmation. I really wish they had been left in because, visually, they are the most unique feature then you compare him to the rest of Erfworld but that's neither here nor there.

Also, where is this audio blog that you made? I'd like to listen to it if it involves Erfworld mechanics/tactics.

[zz_tophat]

We appreciate you answering the technical questions we have PClips. Thanks you.

My main surprise was that, while there is no explicit limit to levels, realistically, it was somewhere below twenty. Very interesting, I had assumed that ten was the maximum.

I get most of the rest, I think. A lot of the physical benefits are small, for instance. It's not like in D&D where you go from having one die worth of hit points to having ten times the number later on along with. An infantry can still kill off a high powered leader with a single shot. Beginning stats mean more as to how powerful you are.

Also, certain items can boost scores. So Parson's sword can give an extra 5 leadership (or more maybe) but Parson's stat is still at two until he can level. Also, Jillian's sword allows her to kill a dwagon that she normally would never be able to kill no matter how high she leveled because it gives supreme damage. I guess magic stat boosting items are among the multipliers that are so essential to Erfworld combat.

Two things I'm unsure of though.

One, there are ways other then combat to gain xp? What are they? I'd guess magic use might be one of them.

Two, the whole master class for the mancers... Is that a separate system? For instance, perhaps casting magic goes directly to improving your caster level and has nothing to do with leveling in the traditional sense? I assume there is a much smaller leveling system for that if so. Perhaps something like four levels or so? Might be listed as Amateur (for those that dabble in mancery that is not their specialty), Apprentice (the starting level for a mancer's specialty), Adept and Master (which would be the maximum level). I also wonder how hard it is to become a master. Sounds like there are a lot of them. All of Stanley's mancers seem to be master level (except possibly Misty)

Also, if you would be so kind, does the the fact that Parson's pupils stopped being drawn after the fist thirty or so pages have any plot relevance? I'm not asking what that could be if so but I'd like to know either way. I'm pretty sure it doesn't but have long wanted confirmation. I really wish they had been left in because, visually, they are the most unique feature then you compare him to the rest of Erfworld but that's neither here nor there.

Also, where is this audio blog that you made? I'd like to listen to it if it involves Erfworld mechanics/tactics.

They could be popped at their current "class", perhaps costing more for a higher class. This does seem supported by the way this sort of thing is handled by other turn based strategy games. For example in people's general units are purchased as regular, veteran or elite. They can level and grow stronger but no matter how high they level they get they never move to one of the higher classes.

I doubt this is the case for Erfunits. because it's already been stated you can go from piker to idiot overlord. Then again he was not a caster.

What does seem suggested is that caster "class" and level may be mutually exclusive. After all Jack's stats seemed pretty low but his foolamancy was implied to be formidable. However, some of the reactions of the coalition make me think that a foolamancer of any level of skill is formidable in regards to finding and or killing it.


Oh, this is my first post: hi.