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View Full Version : Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!



Olo Demonsbane
2009-04-19, 01:44 AM
Vop Monk/Forsaker from Masters of the Wild. The whole thing fits perfectly stat wise, and Im sure you could fit it together fluff wise as well...

Discuss.

Tempest Fennac
2009-04-19, 01:47 AM
What does the Forsaker PrC do exactly?

Alleine
2009-04-19, 01:48 AM
One question.

What are you going to do about the magic items you need to destroy to power the Forsaker? IIRC, they need to destroy a certain gp value magic item to keep some of their abilities.

Keld Denar
2009-04-19, 01:49 AM
Yea...doesn't work. You are supposed to be donating your WBL to charity, not smashing it to bits for marginal benefits.

I'll give it a 1.5 out of 5...

Hida Reju
2009-04-19, 01:54 AM
You know thinking about it...you could do it, you just have to donate any left over parts (expensive scrap) to charity. In addition there is always gems and coin of your share to donate.

Also if you have a cult that is obsessed with removing magic items and destroying them then it works even better. You donate it to them and X gp in magic items gets destroyed.

Bluebeard
2009-04-19, 02:05 AM
If I remember correctly, this would not only sacrifice all your Magic Items for questionable benefits, but also any class abilities you might use to compensate for those weaknesses.

I think the only even vaguely appealing VoP* use was carnivore's plan -- taking the feat after spending all your dough on grafts, books and such. And even then only on a Cleric, Sorcerer or Druid.


*For the purpose of mechanical benefits. If you're using the fluff anyway, that feat's golden.

Gorbash
2009-04-19, 02:15 AM
you could do it, you just have to donate any left over parts (expensive scrap)

Where did you get the idea that those scraps are expensive?

Zincorium
2009-04-19, 02:18 AM
A sorceror who loves changing into bizarre stuff via polymorph is still the best candidate for VoP. IMHO.

A forsaker with VoP, even if you can make it work, and aren't *expletive deleted* by the feat requirements, isn't really very good. You essentially end up with nothing more than a by the book replacement for all the stuff you have simultaneously destroyed/donated, just in the forsaker's case, possibly at lower levels (as you can take it as your second level if you're willing to take those feats instead of good ones).

The thing is, once you're done taking forsaker, those benefits are static, and you really can't *do* anything as a forsaker that's out of reach of another character type.

Thurbane
2009-04-19, 03:50 AM
When I was thinking about an Aslan build, I realized that VoP is a decent path for creatures like awakened animals, who are going to be pretty limited in what gear they can use anyway...

KillianHawkeye
2009-04-19, 08:27 AM
Actually, animals (and most creatures) can still equip a variety of magical items as they still have most of the equivalent item slots (depending on the animal's exact form) and most/all wearable items will resize to fit them. Thus, you can pass down old magic rings or whatever to your familiars or animal companions, etc.

Jack_Simth
2009-04-19, 09:20 AM
Actually, animals (and most creatures) can still equip a variety of magical items as they still have most of the equivalent item slots (depending on the animal's exact form) and most/all wearable items will resize to fit them. Thus, you can pass down old magic rings or whatever to your familiars or animal companions, etc.
By Core RAW, that's is strictly up to the DM, as all the books say in terms of who can wear magic items is "Itís possible for a creature with a humanoid-shaped body to wear as many as twelve magic items at the same time." - as the Core is silent about nonhumanoid-shaped bodies, it's up to the DM.

Granted, there's supplements of various natures that say you *should* be able to wear a subset of that in a nonhumanoid shaped body... but not all DM's accept all sources as valid, so that still comes down to DM call in which sources are permitted.

quick_comment
2009-04-19, 09:24 AM
VoP druids arent too bad, because they get to use VoP while wildshaped.

KillianHawkeye
2009-04-19, 09:34 AM
By Core RAW, that's is strictly up to the DM, as all the books say in terms of who can wear magic items is "Itís possible for a creature with a humanoid-shaped body to wear as many as twelve magic items at the same time." - as the Core is silent about nonhumanoid-shaped bodies, it's up to the DM.

Granted, there's supplements of various natures that say you *should* be able to wear a subset of that in a nonhumanoid shaped body... but not all DM's accept all sources as valid, so that still comes down to DM call in which sources are permitted.

So I should be limiting my advice to core, now? I guess I shouldn't have wasted all that money on D&D supplements!

Jack_Simth
2009-04-19, 09:40 AM
So I should be limiting my advice to core, now? I guess I shouldn't have wasted all that money on D&D supplements!

No, just mention where, exactly, the rule/skill/item/feat/class/PrC/magic item/mundane equipment (or whatever you're bringing to the conversation) comes from.

playswithfire
2009-04-19, 12:17 PM
If I remember correctly (can't find Masters of the Wild at the moment, just online descriptions of Forsaker), isn't the damage reduction the only thing you lose if you don't destroy the specified magic items? And, if so, there's no problem, since VoP gives that anyway.

Of course, my memory may be faulty

monty
2009-04-19, 12:51 PM
VoP druids arent too bad, because they get to use VoP while wildshaped.

Assuming you use MIC, they're still weaker than regular druids at mid to high levels, as the price of wilding clasps starts becoming trivial. Druids are probably one of the best with VoP, but it's not a powergaming option even for them.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-04-19, 02:24 PM
My DM said that the "must destroy magic items" is bad; he thinks that the other players would get mad. He deleted that requirement from the Forsaker class.

But yeah, I see your point about it not being good. Magic items are really powerfull.

Chronos
2009-04-19, 02:36 PM
I think the only even vaguely appealing VoP* use was carnivore's plan -- taking the feat after spending all your dough on grafts, books and such. And even then only on a Cleric, Sorcerer or Druid.Incarnates and Totemists could also do relatively well (at least, compared to a non-vow Incarnate or Totemist), especially considering that some of their best class abilities take up body slots. And you could also manage with a Binder, as long as you're allowed a piece of chalk or charcoal.

Altima of the G
2009-04-19, 02:51 PM
{Scrubbed}

I've got a Rogue 2/Cleric 8(Good and Winter domains)/ Rimefire Witch 10/ Custom Class by DM 2. So basically ECL 22.This is a character I've been working on for 2 years now. The base creature is a spellscale,and with the fey apotheosis (Rimefire Witch class ability) he now has the fey type. The spellscales have a racial ability called Blood Quickening. Look up Races of the Dragon and see the lameness of it there. But basically it gives me metamagic feats as racial abilities if I do an hour long ritual each day. It also doesn't cause me to have to use a spell of a certain level higher while using them. Also, technically, if you're willing to sacrifice xp, you can use that for expensive material components for the vow.I got the VoP at character level 15th. Nw, at ECl 15th, on a recent mission, I was captured by an enemy that had a vendetta on the party for a long time and placed in a prison in the Nine Hells (as of now my character does know WHERE in the Nine-Hells, but it is there) They don't know I have the vow or the strength of my aura of good due to the VoP's alignment sheilding (mind shielding, and the aura can be turned off at will), so I slip out of the cuffs due tot he freedom of movement ability, free my cohort, and we go out to search for our stuff.

Now here is where it gets crazy, after taking out some advanced bone devils and after raiding the armory for our stuff (mostly my holy warrior (book of the righteous) cohort) we meet an advanced paeliryon (Fiend Folio) who attacked us with a quickened, empowered meteor swarm. We got hit for tons of damage, 275 hp to 191 even with resistance. So I pull out the big guns. Heres were it gets dumb. I have the purify spell feat (BoED) and I used it for Bolt of Glory (Spell Compendium, Cleric 6th) and it does 15d12 on evil outsiders/undead/inhabitants of the negative energy plane, and with the purify spell feat, each d12 becomes 3d6 (1d8 becomes 2d6, etc. basically an increase in die type) so it does 45d6 on this creature. But also, since I have three empowers a day (due to Blood Qiuckening) i use one. Just for sacrificing a 7th level spell slot, I just did 228 damage (and this was average rolling) to this Paeliryon, which had 400+ health. The good spells also killed its regeneration. It was down in two rounds, not before using enervation (some negative levels) on me. But hey, restoration fixed that right up. My cohort (cr 18) needed only tank a bit.

My DM was sweating bullets now, since this was the first time I used the feat, just to see if this would be effective. He then wonders should he really send the big bad of the prison, or whether me and my cohort would just snuff it. I said bring it on so we passed the paeliryon (who seemed to be the big bad's secretary) body and met the CR 30 (36 HD on top of other things) Pit Fiend. My character wanted to converse a bit before the showdown, but my cohort, who had been tortured badly prior to this, decided to rush him in rage, so I just opened fire and the battle was on. The starter was a Hammer of Righteousness (BoED, Cleric 3rd - omg!) with Purify Spell on it which came up from 20d8 to 40d6 and then I empowered it again, using a swift action to use assay spell resistance (Spell Compendium) cause I wasn't taking any chances. Even making the fort. save, it was 131 damage. He then proceded to try to tear my cohort to shreads, but even with the gay Divine Shield ability (Complete Divine) my cohort had and the fact he was rolling 1's like a bum, which hurt his +50 modifier to attack badly, he got her health down quick. I fire my suped-up Bolt of Glory two more times into him and he was stunned beyond belief (2nd round 231 damage, 3rd round, 253 damage) and my cohort telling me to just {Scrubbed} before he teles away.' The third round he had about enough of us and my cohort had about 23 out of 256 health left and the disease from the Pit Fiends claws was kicking in, so after one last BoG and a beautiful two hit combo from my cohort, AFTER the Pit Fiend crit failed on his last attack to kill her off, she got him down to -11 (both my spells and her weapons overcame his regeneration), he was defeated. His 700+ health was down in four rounds.

Now she is too powerful to be my cohort, since she is close to 22nd because of this, and I didn't take Epic Leadership (should I take it?) I got to 23rd, and about 10,000 XP from 24th. Needless to say, this made my weekend.

Long story short, not just the VoP, but the whole BoED is the haxxor.

Also, the other great combo for VoP is a cmobo of Monk/Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion).

monty
2009-04-19, 02:57 PM
{Scrubbed}

Anyway, you're level 22. Everything is broken at epic levels. We've all known that for a long time. Give a lower-level example, and maybe you'll have something of an argument.

Altima of the G
2009-04-19, 03:14 PM
{Scrubbed}

Bluebeard
2009-04-19, 03:21 PM
Long story short, not just the VoP, but the whole BoED is the haxxor.
Your words hurt my brain and your post has nothing to do with VoP.

Dublock
2009-04-19, 03:22 PM
ummm...you do know this forum does have guidelines and I am sure language does matter.

monty
2009-04-19, 03:25 PM
{Scrubbed}

You know what? You're absolutely right. I never thought about it that way before. {Scrubbed}

RS14
2009-04-19, 03:43 PM
I don't have either source, but I think I see a stupid loophole. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Vow of Poverty requires you donate to a charity. Does it specify what the charity must do? It seems to me that you could donate to a Forsaker charity. In fact, you'd be such a kind-hearted, generous individual that you'd even donate your time... by helping them destroy magic items. Specifically, those magic items that you donate. :smallbiggrin:

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-19, 03:49 PM
{Scrubbed}.

I have a level 21 Wizard. He doesn't use the BoED. He does however have over 5000 Solars as his eternal slaves, An AC with no buffs on him (except the instantaneous ones he cast a long time ago) of 500, Immunity to every element, immunity to mind affecting, death effects, ect, freedom of movement, and he can do 200d6 untyped unmitigatable damage as a RTA at will.

No, the BoED is not Haxxor.

AmberVael
2009-04-19, 04:02 PM
{Scrubbed}

{Scrubbed}


They don't know I have the vow or the strength of my aura of good due to the VoP's alignment sheilding (mind shielding, and the aura can be turned off at will), so I slip out of the cuffs due tot he freedom of movement ability, free my cohort, and we go out to search for our stuff.

2) Not broken or even impressive. If allowed access to spell like powers, a sorcerer, wizard, druid, or cleric could have easily escaped the situation with their magic (via Freedom of Movement, teleportation effects, shapechanging, blink, ghostform, gaseous form, and any variety of abilities). A rogue, monk, or skilled character by ECL 15 could have used Escape Artist to easily escape. If you were just cuffed, a barbarian or fighter might have even just been able to beat the break DC.
So broken? No. By ECL 15, any good character should be able to get out of simple handcuffs, with or without equipment.


So I pull out the big guns. Heres were it gets dumb. I have the purify spell feat (BoED) and I used it for Bolt of Glory (Spell Compendium, Cleric 6th) and it does 15d12 on evil outsiders/undead/inhabitants of the negative energy plane, and with the purify spell feat, each d12 becomes 3d6 (1d8 becomes 2d6, etc. basically an increase in die type)

3) 3d6 damage per caster level is somewhat impressive. However, the only thing from BoED used here is Purify spell. Purify spell is only exceptionally effective against Evil Outsiders, and even then it is only effective when paired with something that already has a large die value. In short, this was a highly situational combination that would not have been nearly as effective if you were fighting another creature type of comparable strength.
I deem this not broken. It's no better than using a Stake against a vampire, or something that drains dexterity against dragons. Is it extraordinarily effective in certain situations? Yes. Elsewhere? No.


Long story short, not just the VoP, but the whole BoED is the haxxor

4) Two demonstrations that are mostly composed of abilities from other books, and both of which are not actually broken, do not justify this statement.

Salvonus
2009-04-19, 04:16 PM
Furthermore, it should be pointed out that the Vow is terrible in Epic play. I mean, technically speaking, the benefits end at Level 20. :smalleek:

I agree that one of the few situations where VoP can actually be quite good (mechanically speaking) is when you're using a Totemist or Incarnate, just 'cause their chakra binds take up body slots. I can't really think of any other situation where it is particularly effective... I mean, it actually hurts classes like the Soulknife.

Of course, that doesn't mean that VoP is useless; I mean, we are talking about a roleplaying game. :smalltongue: It was a bit of a mechanical failure, in that the high-level benefits didn't really match what one could get from magical items, but it was only ever intended as a roleplaying thing. :smalltongue:

Personally, I would still like to play my Healer with Vows of Poverty, Nonviolence, and Peace someday, just for the roleplaying experience. :smalltongue: (Okay, I know, I know, don't use the Healer; use a Cloistered Cleric instead. :smallwink:)

[edit]

{Scrubbed}

Oh, and seconded. That was pretty annoying, to say the least. :smallconfused: Trust me, being needlessly inappropriate hurts the reception of your arguments. :smallyuk:

Chronos
2009-04-19, 04:26 PM
4) Two demonstrations that are mostly composed of abilities from other books, and both of which are not actually broken, do not justify this statement.And even to the extent that they used BoED material, the Vow of Poverty feat was irrelevant.


Of course, that doesn't mean that VoP is useless; I mean, we are talking about a roleplaying game.Exactly. You don't go and decide "I'm going to give up my items so I can qualify for this awesome feat and get a lot of power", you decide "I'm going to give up my items because I think that would be fun to play, and then I'm going to take this feat so that I don't completely and absolutely suck".

streakster
2009-04-19, 04:31 PM
Exactly. You don't go and decide "I'm going to give up my items so I can qualify for this awesome feat and get a lot of power", you decide "I'm going to give up my items because I think that would be fun to play, and then I'm going to take this feat so that I don't completely and absolutely suck".

Personally, however, I've always favored the "invisible item" approach to a vow of poverty.

Example: You donate money to the local temple that just happens to equal the price of a Tome and a Decanter of Endless Water, and the gods just so happen to reward you with a stat increase and the ability to pray for water.

Salvonus
2009-04-19, 04:45 PM
Personally, however, I've always favored the "invisible item" approach to a vow of poverty.

Example: You donate money to the local temple that just happens to equal the price of a Tome and a Decanter of Endless Water, and the gods just so happen to reward you with a stat increase and the ability to pray for water.

It's a good method, in theory, although you'd obviously need to mix it up a bit. If you could directly "buy" most items through donation, then it would kind of ruin the unique nature of playing an intentionally impoverished character. Also, it seems like you're not really acting selfless any more, on a certain level. For most humans, they'd observe the direct donation-reward dynamic on at least a subconscious level and that would influence their actions; as D&D characters are generally humanoid in psychology, it'd be hard to work around that.

Of course, on a metagame level, a player can't help but notice the direct mechanical benefit. As metagaming always has SOME level of impact on the roleplaying portion of the game, you're also seeing a bit of an influence there. Nonetheless, it's a good idea in principle, but one fraught with roleplaying difficulties if one isn't careful.

streakster
2009-04-19, 05:08 PM
It's a good method, in theory, although you'd obviously need to mix it up a bit. If you could directly "buy" most items through donation, then it would kind of ruin the unique nature of playing an intentionally impoverished character. Also, it seems like you're not really acting selfless any more, on a certain level. For most humans, they'd observe the direct donation-reward dynamic on at least a subconscious level and that would influence their actions; as D&D characters are generally humanoid in psychology, it'd be hard to work around that.

Of course, on a metagame level, a player can't help but notice the direct mechanical benefit. As metagaming always has SOME level of impact on the roleplaying portion of the game, you're also seeing a bit of an influence there. Nonetheless, it's a good idea in principle, but one fraught with roleplaying difficulties if one isn't careful.

Oh, true.

How it generally worked was that I would beseech the gods for something or other ("Help us survive this desert", or "The undead walk this land, I ask your aid", etc.) The DM would then pick out some stuff, and it'd show up as gifts from the gods - I hear in a dream that I can pray for water now, or an angel shows up and touches my simple staff, rendering it holy. It worked fairly well.

You're quite right on the selflessness thing, but I always had that problem with the original VOP too.

"I am holy and selfless! I shall give away all my wealth!"

"Well, that's noble of yo-"

"So that I can fire holy lasers out of my eyes."

Bluebeard
2009-04-19, 05:09 PM
Personally, however, I've always favored the "invisible item" approach to a vow of poverty.

Example: You donate money to the local temple that just happens to equal the price of a Tome and a Decanter of Endless Water, and the gods just so happen to reward you with a stat increase and the ability to pray for water.

Huh.
I've been searching for a way to remove item dependency from D&D 3.5 without a whole lot of luck.
The best methods I had were overcomplicated (VoP-style flat benefits, Single items with a whole get-up's worth of enhancements).
This must have just been too simple.
Damn my monkey brains.

Salvonus
2009-04-19, 05:21 PM
Oh, true.

How it generally worked was that I would beseech the gods for something or other ("Help us survive this desert", or "The undead walk this land, I ask your aid", etc.) The DM would then pick out some stuff, and it'd show up as gifts from the gods - I hear in a dream that I can pray for water now, or an angel shows up and touches my simple staff, rendering it holy. It worked fairly well.

That would work pretty well, I'd think. It does require a fairly good DM, though. :smalltongue:


You're quite right on the selflessness thing, but I always had that problem with the original VOP too.

"I am holy and selfless! I shall give away all my wealth!"

"Well, that's noble of yo-"

"So that I can fire holy lasers out of my eyes."

Yeah, the only thing that VoP has going for it in that regard is that it's actually a power downgrade. :smallwink: Well, also, the donation-reward cycle isn't as closely connected, so there's less of an association on an in-character level between "selflessness" and "cool powers".

By the way, I heard that there's a template from the 3.5e conversion of Dark Sun that lets BEES SHOOT LASERS FROM THEIR EYES. How cool is that? :smallbiggrin:

The Rose Dragon
2009-04-19, 05:25 PM
By the way, I heard that there's a template from the 3.5e conversion of Dark Sun that lets BEES SHOOT LASERS FROM THEIR EYES. How cool is that? :smallbiggrin:

But is there a template that gives you a magic hand that shoots bees?

Salvonus
2009-04-19, 05:26 PM
But is there a template that gives you a magic hand that shoots bees?

I... don't know. :smalleek:

Roland St. Jude
2009-04-19, 05:34 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please remain civil and follow the Forum Rules.

Nohwl
2009-04-19, 07:50 PM
But is there a template that gives you a magic hand that shoots bees?

you could make an epic spell for it.

Warclam
2009-04-21, 12:50 PM
Actually, in The Quintessential Wizard II, there's a 6th-level spell called buzzing doom that lets you shoot a column of bees, for what that's worth.