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Killer Angel
2009-04-19, 12:57 PM
In our players group, the majority is “born” with D&D 1° edition, followed by AD&D and finally 3.0 and 3.5. Some of us are trying 4th ed.
We are a dozen (two players group), with 5-6 players which alternate in DMastering, each with his own style.
My current DM (3.5 campaign) never adapted well with the system and is still thinking in “AD&D terms”: we fight without squared map, and he likes a lot custom magic items (remember this fact, ‘cause it’s the point of this thread).
He’s definitely not one of our best DM… adventures are very descriptive and often railroaded and he likes stomp on the PCs; the random encounters are sometimes crazy, here’s two examples:
3.0 ed.: three 4° lev. Pc (equipped under their WbL) Vs 8-headed lernaean hydra (TPK);
3.5 ed.: four 6° lev. Pc (standard WbL) Vs. a gargantuan black pudding (after 2 rounds, we flew very quickly).

However, this time, this DM decided to boost our PC like legendary heroes, and even more…
We are a group of 5 PC, all 7° lev. (we’re playing strictly core: PH, DMG and MM1): a fighter, a cleric/barbarian, a cleric, a wizard and I, a sorcerer.
A great mysterious danger is threatening the kingdom, lizard-like creature are waging war all over the country, ect. etc. The core of the problem (or, at least, the answer to a lot of questions) is in an ancient tower, at the end of a great valley closed by a huge wall (king-kong like) Divination spells cannot give informations and troops send into, never return.
We saw (and know) too many things, so practically now we’re working directly under king’s command, and he ordered us to investigate the valley. The whole thing it’s a lot greater than us, but we were equipped (only for this mission) with some of the very best equipment of the kingdom.
Here the things become crazy…
Each one of us received a Ring of regeneration (1 hp / round!!! The DM said “don’t worry, you’ll need it). And this is “only” the “basic” equipment! Then they’ve given us personal items; for example, the cleric received (among other things) a Sun blade.
This is far beyond the craziest dream of a Monty Haul campaign… (remember we’re 7° level)
However, we’ve reach the point of the thread: my equipment.
I (as a sorcerer) usually made heavy use of scrolls, to cover the lack of variety.
So, the Magic Treasury give me this unique item (let’s call it with his name: an artifact): it’s a book with blank pages, that I can use to write spells on them, using such written spells as they were scrolls.
The book (and the pencil) is magically connected to the “magic pool” of the Royal Academy of Magic, composed by 100 wizards and sorcerer of various levels. I don’t have to know the spell, to write the “scroll”: I choose a spell, and it writes by himself on the book.
The book can contain 15 total levels of spells in any combination… so I can write (for example) one 1° lev. Spell, three 3° lev. and one 5° lev… but the funny thing is that, once casted, the spell is gone, but the pages turn blank, ready to be written again.
I don't want even think to what could be the prize of this item. Practically, I have full access to ANY spell in the PH, for free, being limited only by the difficulties in casting spells of a too much higher level. I am the Schroedinger wizard sorcerer. :smallcool:
I’m the master of arcane flexibility, and without need to be an Epic Jephton…
The only limitations are:
I cannot write “scrolls” in combat time: I need 15 min /lev. of the spell, so basically there’s almost 4 hours to fill the book
DM said that it’s better if I limit the use of high level spells: the ones the I write, are effectively drained from the knowledge of a wizard of the academy, and cannot be used by him, and the kingdom is at war. (100 wizards, and there should be a problem for a single 8 level spell? Please… :smallsigh:).

For a beginning, I’m thinking to what spell I can use in combination with Contingency… :smallbiggrin:

But Not Tonight
2009-04-19, 02:43 PM
Sounds fun. Unfortunately, I cannot help besides...

MAGIC MISSILE SPAM!

Radar
2009-04-19, 03:00 PM
Hmm... as Contingency goes, max level of a spell used with it depends on the caster level. If the book works as a scroll, then it's not your caster level, but the wizard's that has lent you his power. As even 9th level spells are accessible, then minimum caster level is 18 - you can put spells up to 6th level into Contingency.
Mislead would be a nice last line of defence.

oxybe
2009-04-19, 03:10 PM
Contigiency a teleport: if Killed, teleport to "friendly church with high level cleric that can ressurect"

make sure to let the cleric know about this plan and pay for it in advance. then have a teleport spell in the book to use and 'port back into action on the next round.

Tehnar
2009-04-19, 04:33 PM
Contingency is a tricky spell. The trigger should be very specific in order for it to work as you wish. The suggestion made is a good one, or you could specify whenever brought to 0 hp or fewer, or when you utter "pink sugarcakes", or something highly specific.

As for later I would suggest spells such as:

Arcane eye, prying eyes, charm monster, legend lore(it might give you some clues to the place) for information gathering.

Black tentacles, Wall of Force, Stoneskin(if you dont need components), Confusion, Antimagic field; any defence or control spells that you think will work based on your information gathering.

From the tales you told us, the DM fancies throwing tough encounters your way. So, later on I wouldn't leave without a dimension door/teleport and ropetrick/magnificent mansion.

Or if you have time, and think the DM wont get mad, you could permanency up whatever you like :smallbiggrin:

oxybe
2009-04-19, 04:43 PM
the problem with "0 hp or fewer" is that it doesn't really take into consideration failing Save or Die effects, like Phantasmal Killer, that don't rely on HP loss. or con drain, or level drain, ect...

which is why the 2 best conditions are usually "when i say blathering blatherskite, X happens" (or some other weird phrase) or "when i die, X happens". exception being when you have something contingencied for a very specific reason, like "if [specific enemy] hits me with [his fav spell/effect], [spell that neutralizes him] happens".

monty
2009-04-19, 04:53 PM
the problem with "0 hp or fewer" is that it doesn't really take into consideration failing Save or Die effects, like Phantasmal Killer, that don't rely on HP loss. or con drain, or level drain, ect...

Any dead character is automatically at -10, regardless of what killed them.

From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#deathAttacks:

In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how she died, has -10 hit points.

oxybe
2009-04-19, 04:56 PM
rope trick is great to have with a caster level of 8... it allows a full night's rest in your own little extradimentional space (9th level and up is best as it allows the 8 hours rest + 1 hour for spell prep).

other spells? phantom steed is awesome at caster level 14: free mount with a flying move speed of 240 feet, can carry you+140 lbs. it's weak, but MAN does it travel.

polymorph and it's better versions. while great combat buff spells, they're also incredible utility spells with proper creativity.

oxybe
2009-04-19, 04:58 PM
huh. i did not know that. you learn something new every day.

Bluebeard
2009-04-19, 05:03 PM
I don't want to see you falling into the same rut as every TLN-quoting Wizard-Zombie.

I want to see something new.

I want to see nothing but Mage Hand, Unseen Servant, Shrink Item and Telekinesis.
Maybe Mount.

oxybe
2009-04-19, 05:17 PM
TLN? what does that mean?

monty
2009-04-19, 05:21 PM
TLN? what does that mean?

The Logic Ninja. He wrote the famous (as far as this forum is concerned, anyway) wizard guide.

Bluebeard
2009-04-19, 05:44 PM
TLN? what does that mean?

He posted the "Batman" wizard guide.

I see dozens upon dozens of cookie-cutter Wizard/Fatespinner/Iot7V/Archmage builds, all spamming Glitterdust and Rays.
All specialized in Divination, dropping Enchantment & Evocation.
All drawing gameplay to a halt as they use Arcane Eye & 15 minutes of spell prep setting themselves up with exactly the spells they need for an encounter.

People don't just dive in anymore. Only a few know how to wing it.

The Glyphstone
2009-04-19, 06:03 PM
how does a Diviner drop Enchantment and Evocation?

monty
2009-04-19, 06:06 PM
how does a Diviner drop Enchantment and Evocation?

Incantatrix or Focused Specialist, presumably.

Bluebeard
2009-04-19, 06:29 PM
how does a Diviner drop Enchantment and Evocation?
I don't know, but they manage somehow.

Actually, that guide was way friendlier to Enchantment than I would have expected. Maybe they don't drop it... maybe they just never get a chance to cast it between their Glitterdusts and rays.

mostlyharmful
2009-04-19, 06:40 PM
He posted the "Batman" wizard guide.

I see dozens upon dozens of cookie-cutter Wizard/Fatespinner/Iot7V/Archmage builds, all spamming Glitterdust and Rays.
All specialized in Divination, dropping Enchantment & Evocation.
All drawing gameplay to a halt as they use Arcane Eye & 15 minutes of spell prep setting themselves up with exactly the spells they need for an encounter.

People don't just dive in anymore. Only a few know how to wing it.

Thing is that's not really Batman. At least not as the Logic Ninja envisaged him. There's at least three different kinds of wizards play style that get labeled 'Batman' on these boards and TLN wasn't in favour of two of them very much.

1. Batman the first, TLN guide batman, is about team buffs, battlefield control and occasional debuffs to key opponents. He's a force multiplier to the rest of his team and works best as such, this is the batman that's simultaneously the most fun to play, the most fun to play with and the one that is least likely to get your DM to throw Solars at your ECL 9 team. This version is playable at any level, at any real level of optimization and it's more of a mentality than a build.

2. Batman the uber, the unbeatable Batman, this is the one that isn't actually playable, the Schroediger wizard, the perfectly prepared caster in all situations, the one with seventeen different plans all perfectly adaptable to any opponent and a totally unbeatable backup plan for every conceivable and most inconceivable situations should they jump out of the woodwork. This is the one you're likely to find Incantatrix, Iot7FV, Mindbender and Mindsight, Craft Contingency and all the rest. It's not really playable (though you can get close enough that it's workable and really really annoying) , it's not much fun to be around and it's not all that much more than a thought exercise along the lines of Pun-Pun just with less ubercheese and more homework.

3. Batman the Hermit, the paranoid Batman, this is the guy that hides in his unassailable fortress and spams divination effects until he has the perfect set of spells and even then has backups on his backups on his contingencies on his escape plans on his insuerance on his..... blah blah blah I'm sure you get the idea. It's close to the second but far more defensive in nature and far more timewating. If the second is about always winning this version is about never losing, or at least never losing for good. This is the guy with the Genesis plane and Celerity/Foresight/Timestop and deals with sixteen different outsiders to Ress them if they die. It can only really be feasible at high level but it's easier to do than the second one so it actually gets tried in game which can slow the whole thing down to a crawl or not dependant on the skill of the player and how loose the DM is feeling like being.

As written by TLN Batman is about making sure everyone is having fun and being effective while not dying, yeah sure a wizard should be able to drop a Nova if they have to but it shouldn't be a regular thing, it should be treated as something of a failure, and they certainly shouldn't be trying to take on encounters by themselves. The other two are thought experiments that shouldn't be confused with the guide and shouldn't be attempted outside an internet forum.

Bluebeard
2009-04-19, 06:58 PM
Thing is that's not really Batman. At least not as the Logic Ninja envisaged him.
It is, it's just taken to an unbelievable extreme.
It's the situation you get when a player takes TLN's advice and refuses to budge from it. It doesn't matter how many campaigns the player's played the same character.
This is what happens when players look for advice before making a decision on anything -- TLN's preferences become gospel. Nothing that isn't covered in the guide is worth consideration.
The player always has the tool for the job, but it's always the same tool.
Over and over again.

If the options are preparation or action, I know what I'd recommend.
Sometimes it's more fun to have the wrong tool.

mostlyharmful
2009-04-19, 07:11 PM
It is, it's just taken to an unbelievable extreme.

And in that exteme it loses the key message of the guide which is to work as part of a team with buffs, debuffs and BC. The actual spells used are just recomendations and the tactics are minimal, it's the mentality of doing what is necessary without stepping on anyone elses toes in the party that TLN was trying to get accross.

I know dogmatization is always a danger with a set of advice (just look at religion) but that's a problem of the user and their lack of imagination not the advice.

I can't give any advice on breaking them out of their nice well worked grove but hey, try playing a wizard with style around them and maybe they'll see that varying it up is a little more fun. Saw a cool idea on here a few months back of a showboating wizard that rode around in a tricked out beholder skeleton with bound sucubusses, totally over the top and it sounded like great fun.:smallsmile:

Godskook
2009-04-19, 07:37 PM
People don't just dive in anymore. Only a few know how to wing it.

Are you looking for players(not characters) who have crossed the chaotic event horizon and never give any thought to anything they do, or are you just looking for someone who hasn't crossed the lawful event horizon?

Personally, I've spent a lot of time doing my 'homework' on playing D&D, to a degree, but I've never, ever, played before. I've tried applying to 2 different games on these forums, and I'll find out in a couple days if I made it into the second one. My builds? The first was a wizard/cleric going into mystic theurge(level 2 start) and the second is an focused specialist illusionist whose current spell choices are based more on my story than on combat ability, and I banned Necromancy and Conjuration, instead keeping Abjuration and Enchantment. Not only that, but I asked the DM to choose my items, completely forgoing any possibility to optimize in exchange for a chance at good RP, but due to my experience, I might get better items from him than I could have chosen myself.

My point? I'm not sure, I kinda lost it in there somewhere.

oxybe
2009-04-19, 08:40 PM
i find it funny that you're advocating the caster to not plan ahead and jump in.

if you ask for optimization without stated boundaries, you'll get what amounts to the "best" choices. it's bland, but you get what you ask for.

we lack any real information for "flavorful" options for this character as all we are given are numbers, and details on what he's up against and the resources he's go, nothing on the PC itself.

so he gets raw, flavorless, bland "best choices". i like optimizing within the frame of a character concept so i can help bring out the "best" for that character, but the less you give me to work with, the blander the outcome.

Zhalath
2009-04-19, 09:09 PM
You're like a Wizard on steroids.

My recommendation is to have a wish ready, at all times. I doubt your DM will hit you with the repercussions of stealing all the high-level wizards' 9th spell slot, unless he's famed for doing such things. Even just 1 wish a day will do it, or even less. You never know what you'll need to do.

With contingencies, be as specific as possible. Assume your DM is a Literal Genie (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LiteralGenie). Teleport is good, as many have said. However, nothing beats having a feather fall. You'd be surprised how many times you can be caught falling. Use permanency for arcane sight, darkvision, tongues, and anything else you can put on yourself.

For blowing stuff up, nothing beats the classics. Fireball, lightning bolt, and other huge evocations make beautiful explosions of pain. For extra awesome, try to take some that have metamagic effects on them (I don't know if metamagic can be put into a scroll, so if someone knows, correct me). Disintegrate is also excruciatingly painful to anyone you can hit with it. Scorching ray is good if you don't want to drain a higher-level slot. For upper-level fare, we have the 9th level meteor swarm and the lovely horrid wilting.

Nice spells to just have on hand: dimension door, telekinesis, passwall, antimagic field, true seeing, greater teleport, prismatic spray, ethereal jaunt, and maybe iron body.

I don't know why I italicized all the spells. It just felt fitting.

Killer Angel
2009-04-21, 01:46 AM
Hmm... as Contingency goes, max level of a spell used with it depends on the caster level. If the book works as a scroll, then it's not your caster level, but the wizard's that has lent you his power. As even 9th level spells are accessible, then minimum caster level is 18 - you can put spells up to 6th level into Contingency.
Mislead would be a nice last line of defence.

mmm... it's not clear (i will try), but i fear that, havin 100 wizard, it's the "first in line" that will give me his power for the spell I choose (the lowest level possible). Like real scrolls.
So, a contingency will have a caster level 11... good only for a contingent spell no higher than 3°.
Maybe Blink?

ShadowFighter15
2009-04-21, 04:48 AM
Sounds fun. Unfortunately, I cannot help besides...

MAGIC MISSILE SPAM!

Ah, the Itano Circus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfQ8sAPGKOE) school of combat.

lord_khaine
2009-04-21, 05:01 AM
I don't want to see you falling into the same rut as every TLN-quoting Wizard-Zombie.

I want to see something new.

I want to see nothing but Mage Hand, Unseen Servant, Shrink Item and Telekinesis.
Maybe Mount.

you do know, that spell selection is only going to get people killed?

edit. or lead to cheese of the worst order.

BlueWizard
2009-04-21, 06:01 AM
Gapes in horror at DM described in OP.

Tempest Fennac
2009-04-21, 06:24 AM
Which sort of Sorcerer spells do you have learnt? I recommend using the book for spells which you can't cast normally while focusing on utility spells which are likely to be needed. You should ask about whether you pay Exp. costs for spells which you use before considering using Wish in case you would have to pay that.

Regarding planning, I tend to think it's a good idea to make choices which are going to be useful due to how it seems inconsiderate to be underpowered due to it making your character a liability.

I'm inclined to agree with Blue Wizard about how overpowered that item is. If it turns out you'll need it, good luck in the campaign.

Killer Angel
2009-04-21, 06:37 AM
I don't want to see you falling into the same rut as every TLN-quoting Wizard-Zombie.

I want to see something new.




I like the concept of batman guide, most af all 'cause in our group, usually we have blaster wizard (with no metamagic... :smallsigh:).
But i did'n want to stay too much in TLN.
My sorcerer is a sort of pacifist. Imagine a guy like Sizemore; he don't want to kill, never, not even for self-defense.
He don't want a heavy Karma, so he don't want blood on his hands.
But also, he has no problem helping others to kill, so his first 3° lev. spell was haste.
Battlefield controll are good, until they don't risk to kill anyone: Solid fog is OK, Black tenctacles NO.
Given that bluff is a class skill, he likes infiltrate under magical cover, etc.

With the right scrolls, i can do a lot of things, but definitely it's the rest of our group that must do the dirty work. And even if I want, a cannot kill anyone, 'cause I have no spell that "kills". (however, a scroll of Hold Monster...)

Killer Angel
2009-04-21, 06:49 AM
You should ask about whether you pay Exp. costs for spells which you use before considering using Wish in case you would have to pay that.

Regarding planning, I tend to think it's a good idea to make choices which are going to be useful due to how it seems inconsiderate to be underpowered due to it making your character a liability.

I'm inclined to agree with Blue Wizard about how overpowered that item is. If it turns out you'll need it, good luck in the campaign.


I must clear the Exp. cost (my intention is to cast permanency on See inv. and tongue. Even if it's free, i don't want to render permanent other spells).
Wish is a moot point; I have Cha 18, so i cannot cast 9° lev. spells (well, i can always cast eagle's splendor before, but i'm 7° lev.; the caster level check it's not so easy for a 9° lev. spell).

The item is clearly overpowered, so I don't want to abuse it: we must investigate? the valley probably will be full of strange enemies? good: some short-range divination (eye-type, etc), than tongue and Veil is a good tactic to infiltrate, useful for the group and all partecipate.

And frankly, i find it's funnier to give stoneskin to our hasted tank and then forge the battlefield, if the alternative is summon some big guy and watch the show, even if I could, thanks to this magic book minor artifact

Tempest Fennac
2009-04-21, 06:58 AM
He sounds similar to a pacifist Phanaton Wizard I made a while back, including the bit about using nonlethal battlefield control spells ( http://pandius.com/phanatn2.html and http://mydndgame.com/character/1022/sheet ). I agree completely with the tactics which you're planning on using with the book. :smallsmile:

monty
2009-04-21, 10:01 AM
I don't know why I italicized all the spells. It just felt fitting.

Meh, I do that a lot too.