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unosarta
2009-04-19, 10:01 PM
Fencer

This is a little pet project for me, seeing as I fence, and still have yet to see a class that seems to fully represent the type of fencing I do. For any of you fencers out there, this is loosely based on epee.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+0|Parry, Weapon Finesse

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+0|Uncanny Dodge, Precise Strike +1d4

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+1|Evasion

4th|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+1|Focus Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Precise Strike +2d4

5th|
+5|
+1|
+4|
+1|Riposte, Focus Attack

6th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+5|
+2|Improved Uncanny Dodge, Fleche, Precise Strike +3d4

7th|
+7/+2|
+2|
+5|
+2|Lunge

8th|
+8/+3|
+2|
+6|
+2|Remise, Precise Strike +4d4

9th|
+9/+4|
+3|
+6|
+3|Extreme Accuracy

10th|
+10/+5|
+3|
+7|
+3|Improved Evasion, Precise Strike +5d4

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+3|
+7|
+3|Disarming Parry

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+4|
+8|
+4|Counter Strike, Precise Strike +6d4

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+4|
+8|
+4|Improved Fleche

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+4|
+9|
+4|Precise Strike +7d4

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+5|
+9|
+5|Improved Finesse

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+10|
+5| Precise Strike +8d4

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+5|Agile Foot-Work

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+11|
+6|Balestra Lunge, Precise Strike +9d4

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+6|

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+12|
+6|Ultimate Evasion, Precise Strike +10d4 [/table]

Hit Dice: d6
Skills per level: (6+int bonus)*4 at first level; 6+int bonus every level.
Class Skills: The Fencerís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate(Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Nobility), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis) Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex).


Class Abilities

Proficiencies: the fencer is not proficient with any armor. the fencer is proficient with all simple weapons, the rapier, the shortsword, the scimitar, and the longsword.

Parry: Whenever an opponent attacks you with a melee attack and you have an attack of opportunity available, you may use that attack of opportunity, and make an attack roll. If your attack roll is higher than the opponents attack roll then you may force the attack to miss. you may only use this ability when you are aware of the attack, and are not immobilized.

Weapon Finesse: the fencer gains weapon finesse as a bonus feat.

Uncanny Dodge: at second level, the fencer gains this ability. Exactly the same as the Barbarian ability.

Precise Strike: at second level you may make a single attack as a standard action. You deal a bonus +1d4 damage. This is precision damage, and does not affect opponents who are unaffected by critical hits. You gain an additional dice of damage every other level past second level [+2d4 at 4th, +3d4 at 6th, so on and so forth]. You automatically deal this damage on a riposte.

Evasion: at third level the fencer gains this ability. Exactly the same as the monk ability.

Focus Dodge: at fourth level you add half of your Fencer levels as a dodge bonus against one opponent. You may switch your target of focus dodge as a free action. When Qualifying for feats, this class ability counts as if you had the Dodge feat. if you have chosen a target you may only use your parry ability against that target. you may choose not to have a target, but then you do not gain a bonus to armor class. you may only switch your target on your turn.

Combat Reflexes: at fourth level you gain a number of Extra attacks of opportunity equal to one plus your dexterity modifier. You gain an additional Attack of Opportunity at eighth level, twelfth level, sixteenth level, and finally twentieth level. you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed. if you already have the combat reflexes feat, then you gain a bonus feat of your choice. you must qualify for this feat if choose it. you still gain the extra Attacks of Opportunity based on your level, but not from high dexterity.

Focus Attack: at fifth level, you may designate a target. You gain a bonus to attacks against that target equal to half of your class level. You may only designate one opponent as the target of your Focus Attacks. your target of Focus Attack must the same as Focus Dodge. if you are not targeting anything with Focus Dodge, then you are able to target anyone you see with this ability. however, whenever you target someone with Focus Attack you may only use your parry ability against them. you may only switch targets on your turn.

Riposte: at fifth level whenever your parry attack makes an opponent miss than you may make an attack against the target, and the target looses its dexterity bonus to Armor Class, but only for your attack.

Fleche: at sixth level you may charge an opponent, attack and then move past the target. This is a full round action. This attack provokes Attacks of Opportunity even if you have the Improved Charge Feat.

Improved Uncanny Dodge: at sixth level you gain this ability. Exactly the same as the barbarian ability.

Lunge: at seventh level you may make an attack against a target as if you had the reach of a character one size larger than you. So for a medium sized character, you could make an attack on an opponent 10í away from you. This ability only functions with 1 and 2-handed weapons without reach already. You may only make one attack with this ability.

Remise: at eighth level whenever an attack you make against an opponent who you have designated as your Focus Attack target misses, then you may make another attack as an immediate action.

Extreme Accuracy: at ninth level you may subtract any number from the damage of your attacks this round, and then gain that number as a bonus to attack rolls this round. You may not subtract a number higher than the minimum damage of a variable damage roll plus whatever bonuses you have to any damage rolls. So if you are attack with a Shortsword, and have a strength score of 12, then you could at most subtract 2. even if you have a penalty to a damage roll higher than the combined damage you would deal you still deal 1 point of damage. You may not subtract this amount from extra damage such as from Precise Strike, Sneak Attack or weapon qualities such as Flaming. You may not subtract more than your base attack bonus.

Improved Evasion: at tenth level you gain this ability. Exactly the same as the Monk ability.

Disarming Parry: at eleventh level whenever you make a successful parry against a target you may attempt to disarm the target. If you make the disarm attempt you may then use the riposte ability, however if you fail the disarm attempt, not only are you disarmed, the target of your disarming may make an Attack of Opportunity against you. This ability is not useable against targets without a weapon [I.E. natural attacks, or a monks fist].

Counter Strike: at twelfth level rather than use your parry ability you may instead make an attack of opportunity. Your Attack of Opportunity and the original attack resolve at the same time, but your attack does double the damage it would normally deal.

Improved Fleche: at thirteenth level you may make an additional attack as you charge past an opponent with your Fleche ability. You also no longer provoke an Attack of Opportunity for using your Fleche ability.

Improved Finesse: at fifteenth level when wielding a weapon that is useable with Weapon Finesse you may add your dexterity bonus to your damage instead of your strength bonus.

Agile Foot-Work: at seventeenth level instead of a 5 foot step you may instead take a 10 foot step per round. Functions exactly as a 5ft step except for distance. You may not be attacked with an Attack of Opportunity while using a 10ft step even if a specific ability allows attacks of opportunity against movement.

Balestra Lunge: As a standard action, you may make a (precisely) 10-foot charge once in any direction at the end of your movement (or instead of taking a 5-foot step). This charge does not provoke attacks of opportunity, nor does it give any penalties to AC afterward--and adds +2 damage to the resulting attack in addition to the usual rules for Charging. A Balestra Lunge may carry you beyond your Speed for a round.

Ultimate Evasion: at level twenty as long as an attack allows for a reflex save you take no damage from it. This ability only functions when you do not wear armor.

Restriction
you may only use the fencers class abilities when wielding a one-handed piercing or slashing weapon.

So? does this work mechanically? is it a viable class? any comments are appreciated.

Bulwer
2009-04-19, 10:11 PM
I'd dip it for parry.

quick_comment
2009-04-19, 10:17 PM
No beat or pris de fer?


Some renaming:

Improved Lunge---> Balestra Lunge

Counterattack----> Inquartata



Also, I suggest making all those abilities only work when armed with a 1 handed slashing or piercing weapon.

unosarta
2009-04-19, 10:19 PM
No beat or pris de fer?


Some renaming:

Improved Lunge---> Balestra Lunge

Counterattack----> Inquartata



Also, I suggest making all those abilities only work when armed with a 1 handed slashing or piercing weapon.

well, beat just seems like a parry. although i agree with the weapon stuff.

unosarta
2009-04-19, 10:26 PM
I'd dip it for parry.

quite honestly, it seems to me, that anyone who is actually trying to be viable with that would also need a bunch of AoO's and they are incidentally granted by the class.

but seriously, if you really want to go just with parry, you would probably be stronger with just going full through the class. honestly, i cant imagine a reason why you would be stronger with multi-classing just for parry.

Thane of Fife
2009-04-19, 10:27 PM
I think Parry is far too good for a first level ability. One level dip and combat reflexes, and you never need to worry about being Disintegrated again. Or an assortment of other amazing spells which require Touch attacks.

And then at level 5, you can even attack them back.

Unless I'm missing something...?

unosarta
2009-04-19, 10:30 PM
I think Parry is far too good for a first level ability. One level dip and combat reflexes, and you never need to worry about being Disintegrated again. Or an assortment of other amazing spells which require Touch attacks.

And then at level 5, you can even attack them back.

Unless I'm missing something...?

shoot, i was going to make it only melee attacks. thank you for reminding me.

quick_comment
2009-04-19, 11:14 PM
Parrying ray spells should be very limited. It duplicates the epic feat exceptional deflection.

erikun
2009-04-20, 09:43 PM
First: I like. It's nice to see non-mage classes with some neat abilities, especially as base classes.

Now time to pick it apart. :smallamused:



Combat Reflexes: at fourth level you gain a number of Extra attacks of opportunity equal to one plus your dexterity modifier. You gain an additional Attack of Opportunity at eighth level, twelfth level, sixteenth level, and finally twentieth level.

Can this be used with the Combat Reflexes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatReflexes) feat? If so, isn't it a bit broken to allow 2 + 2x Dex mod AoO each round? If not, why don't you get the other benefits of Combat Reflexes (AoO while flatfooted, counts as the feat) along with it?



Focus Dodge: at fourth level you add half of your Fencer levels as a dodge bonus against one opponent. You may switch your target of focus dodge as a free action. When Qualifying for feats, this class ability counts as if you had the Dodge feat.

Focus Attack: at fifth level, you may designate a target. You gain a bonus to attacks against that target equal to half of your class level. You may only designate one opponent as the target of your Focus Attacks.

Should I point out potential problems with freely allowing +10 AC and +10 hit?



Riposte: at fifth level whenever your parry attack makes an opponent miss than you may make an attack against the target, and the target looses its dexterity bonus to Armor Class.

Free flatfootness against anyone attacking you, and at level 5? Your rogue will love you, I'm sure.



Extreme Accuracy: at ninth level you may subtract any number from the damage of your attacks this round, and then gain that number as a bonus to attack rolls this round. You may not subtract a number higher than the minimum damage of a variable damage roll plus whatever bonuses you have to any damage rolls. So if you are attack with a Shortsword, and have a strength score of 12, then you could at most subtract 2. even if you have a penalty to a damage roll higher than the combined damage you would deal you still deal 1 point of damage. You may not subtract this amount from extra damage such as from Precise Strike, Sneak Attack or weapon qualities such as Flaming. You may not subtract more than your base attack bonus.

This is overly wordy, and not really something I'd ever see used, unless you're fighting something around +10 CR compared to you. I mean, assuming a high Dex, we're looking at +20 hit over an optimized fighter - and most of those use their big attack bonuses for Power Attack.



Ultimate Evasion: at level twenty as long as an attack allows for a reflex save you take no damage from it. This ability only functions when you do not wear armor.

I think magical robes or don't count as armor, though. Like blaster wizards aren't bad enough. :smalltongue:


Overall, a nice selection of abilities. I actually think that some of them, like Disarming Parry, possibly work better than existing rules - I could see Disarming Parry work as a child feat for Combat Reflexes, for example. I'm sure the class could use some more balance, but I'm just mentioning the highlights I see on a first look-over.

Harperfan7
2009-04-21, 12:16 AM
I posted a comment earlier, but it got erased.

Weapon and armor proficiencies?

Uh, class skills? Either give less points or more skills to choose from. Maybe add stealth and perception skills? Athletic/acrobatic skills?

An ability that lets you parry spells would be pretty awesome and dynamic.

I think counterstrike is a little too much. I would have stopped at riposte.

The ability to lunge forward 15ft? I can't even imagine that.

Fleche and Agile foot work are what scouts need. What does this class benefit from them except a little maneuverability?

I think the biggest problem with this class is its narrow focus. At least fighters get to pick which weapon and how to use it. (Not that I wouldn't enjoy playing one of these, I actually made my own swashbuckler 20 level class, and the only real customization with it is which feats to take)

All said, this is definetly better than the given swashbuckler class.

Maldraugedhen
2009-04-21, 10:26 AM
I think the Balestra Lunge needs a little tweaking. As written, you simply remain where you are and attack another character, while a balestra in actuality sends you that distance down the strip (check out some clips of epee fencers, Harperfan--I've seen people easily clear distances like that in a single lunge).

I think it might work better if you make it so that you may make a Leap Attack from standing at no penalty for no running start (or maybe just a -5 instead of a -10), and may make additional Leap Attacks after the first. Maybe double the bonus damage from the Leap Attack to make it worth being a level 18 feature.

...I might be thinking of the ability Jump Attack. Can't find it in the SRD. Adds damage to your attack with a jump.

This might make a better class skill list, yours seems somewhat short for an acrobatic fencer-type. I'd think raising it to 6 + Int / level wouldn't be too bad a choice, either.

The Fencerís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate(Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Nobility), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis) Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex).

Added Diplomacy and Knowledge (Nobility) for the connection fencing had with noble families.

unosarta
2009-04-21, 02:17 PM
I think the Balestra Lunge needs a little tweaking. As written, you simply remain where you are and attack another character, while a balestra in actuality sends you that distance down the strip (check out some clips of epee fencers, Harperfan--I've seen people easily clear distances like that in a single lunge).

I think it might work better if you make it so that you may make a Leap Attack from standing at no penalty for no running start (or maybe just a -5 instead of a -10), and may make additional Leap Attacks after the first. Maybe double the bonus damage from the Leap Attack to make it worth being a level 18 feature.

...I might be thinking of the ability Jump Attack. Can't find it in the SRD. Adds damage to your attack with a jump.

This might make a better class skill list, yours seems somewhat short for an acrobatic fencer-type. I'd think raising it to 6 + Int / level wouldn't be too bad a choice, either.

The Fencerís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate(Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Nobility), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis) Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex).

Added Diplomacy and Knowledge (Nobility) for the connection fencing had with noble families.

the name Balestra lunge is simply flavor. originally it was just improved lunge, and someone said that it should have a better name, and suggested Balestra lunge, which seemed to fit. jump attack might make sense, however, i still want to give it an improved lunge so as to represent the fact that the fencer has gotten a faster/farther lung over time. if you have any suggestions for names that you think would be better, i would love to hear them.

thank you so much for the skills. i couldnt think of any skills that really fit the fencer, and still not make them seem to much like rogues.

unosarta
2009-04-21, 02:30 PM
First: I like. It's nice to see non-mage classes with some neat abilities, especially as base classes.

Now time to pick it apart. :smallamused:


Can this be used with the Combat Reflexes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatReflexes) feat? If so, isn't it a bit broken to allow 2 + 2x Dex mod AoO each round? If not, why don't you get the other benefits of Combat Reflexes (AoO while flatfooted, counts as the feat) along with it?


Should I point out potential problems with freely allowing +10 AC and +10 hit?


Free flatfootness against anyone attacking you, and at level 5? Your rogue will love you, I'm sure.


This is overly wordy, and not really something I'd ever see used, unless you're fighting something around +10 CR compared to you. I mean, assuming a high Dex, we're looking at +20 hit over an optimized fighter - and most of those use their big attack bonuses for Power Attack.


I think magical robes or don't count as armor, though. Like blaster wizards aren't bad enough. :smalltongue:


Overall, a nice selection of abilities. I actually think that some of them, like Disarming Parry, possibly work better than existing rules - I could see Disarming Parry work as a child feat for Combat Reflexes, for example. I'm sure the class could use some more balance, but I'm just mentioning the highlights I see on a first look-over.

thank you for going over the abilities. most of these things were mistakes that i knew about but forgot. i wont be going over all of the things you wrote, but i will change the stuff.

unosarta
2009-04-21, 03:14 PM
I posted a comment earlier, but it got erased.
thats wierd :smalleek:


weapon and armor proficiencies?
fixed

Uh, class skills? Either give less points or more skills to choose from. Maybe add stealth and perception skills? Athletic/acrobatic skills?
also fixed

An ability that lets you parry spells would be pretty awesome and dynamic.
that would be pretty awesome, but as i think someone mentioned earlier, that would pretty much be a copy off of an epic feat.

I think counterstrike is a little too much. I would have stopped at riposte.
how so? i think that counterstrike shows how the fencer might want to finish off an enemy and need to do it fast, so he lets the enemy attack him, then performs a devastating attack against the enemy, but at the cost of letting the opponent hit him. seems to make sense to me, however if you can tell me a reason why it doesnt work I would love to hear it :smalltongue:

The ability to lunge forward 15ft? I can't even imagine that.
i myself have seen someone lunge halfway across a strip, which is pretty big, so it does happen. plus, this is Dungeons and Dragons, an exaggeration of the real world. if someone can jump across half a strip in the real world, i have no doubt that a level eighteen character can lunge at 15 feet.

Fleche and Agile foot work are what scouts need. What does this class benefit from them except a little maneuverability?
well, i REALLY didnt want to make this class one sided, and actually, fencing can be extremely fast, and a lot of people do fleche. so while maneuverability doesnt seem like it fits with your stereotypical fencer, it does in more ways than you think.


I think the biggest problem with this class is its narrow focus. At least fighters get to pick which weapon and how to use it. (Not that I wouldn't enjoy playing one of these, I actually made my own swashbuckler 20 level class, and the only real customization with it is which feats to take)
umm, well, with the weapons now up, it is possible to have a dexterous charging longsword character power attacking with dexterity. or you could have a character that fights two-weapon fighting style [parrying daggers were what every older fencer would have, before duels where mostly outlawed, and guns were invented]. you could have a fencer that chooses to only stay and fight with focus dodge, and fighting defensively. you could have the overly flamboyant fencer who feints and dodges and parries opponents to infuriate them, and never let them hit. one of the least problems i have with the class so far is one-sidedness. i really tried not to have that, especially since i hate a super focused class.

All said, this is definetly better than the given swashbuckler class.
thank you :smallbiggrin:

none of this was meant to sound offensive or anything.

quick_comment
2009-04-21, 07:13 PM
*yoink*

Here is my try at a sabre inspired fencer

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+0|Parry, Weapon Finesse, Right of Way

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+0|Uncanny Dodge

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+1|

4th|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+1|Lunge

5th|
+5|
+1|
+4|
+1|Quick Reflexes

6th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+5|
+2|Improved Uncanny Dodge

7th|
+7/+2|
+2|
+5|
+2|Balestra Lunge

8th|
+8/+3|
+2|
+6|
+2|Stop-cut, Improved Feint

9th|
+9/+4|
+3|
+6|
+3|

10th|
+10/+5|
+3|
+7|
+3|Steal Tempo 1x/day

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+3|
+7|
+3|Pris de Fer

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+4|
+8|
+4|Parry-Riposte

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+4|
+8|
+4|

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+4|
+9|
+4|Redouble

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+5|
+9|
+5|

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+10|
+5|Improved Parry-Riposte

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+5|

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+11|
+6|Feint Mastery

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+6|

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+12|
+6|Flying Lunge, Steal tempo 2x/day [/table]

Hit Dice: d8
Skills per level: (6+int bonus)*4 at first level; 6+int bonus every level.
Class Skills: The Fencerís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate(Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Nobility), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis) Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex).


Class Abilities

Proficiencies: the saberist is not proficient with any armor. The saberist is proficient with all martial slashing weapons.

Parry: Whenever an opponent attacks you with a melee attack and you have an attack of opportunity available, you may use that attack of opportunity, and make an attack roll. If your attack roll is higher than the opponents attack roll then you may force the attack to miss. you may only use this ability when you are aware of the attack.

Weapon Finesse: the saberist gains weapon finesse as a bonus feat.

Right of Way: If the saberist attacks a flatfooted or flanked opponent, he deals extra damage equal to half his saberist level.

Uncanny Dodge: at second level, the saberist gains this ability. Exactly the same as the Barbarian ability.

Lunge: at 4th level you may make an attack against a target as if you had the reach of a character one size larger than you. So for a medium sized character, you could make an attack on an opponent 10í away from you. This ability only functions with 1 and 2-handed weapons without reach already. You may apply this ability at the end of a charge. If you do, you gain +4 on the attack roll (in addition to the regular charge bonuses). You apply your right of way damage on this attack.

Quick Reflexes: At 5th level the saberist can make a number of extra AoOs each round equal to his Saberist level /5. This stacks with Combat reflexes

Balestra Lunge: At 7th level, the saberist may, as an immediate action a number of times per day equal to 1/4th his saberist level, may move up to half his speed and make an attack. He can use his lunge ability on this attack.

Improved Uncanny Dodge: at sixth level you gain this ability. Exactly the same as the barbarian ability.

Stop-cut: At 8th level, the fencer deals his right of way damage on all AoOs.

Improved Feint: You may feint as a move action, or as part of any lunge attack.

Steal Tempo: at 10th level, once per day per 10 fencer levels, you can take a standard action as an immediate action. You cannot use this ability if you are flatfooted or suprised.

Pris de fer: at 11th level, when you use your lunge attack, you may make a free disarm attempt on the opponent. You do not provoke AoOs for this, and you cannot be disarmed in turn.

Parry-Riposte: at 12th level whenever your parry attack makes an opponent miss than you may make an attack against the target. You deal right of way damage on this attack.

Redouble : At 14th level, you may treat your reach as two sizes larger when you use your lunge attack.

Improved Parry-Riposte: At 16th level, when you make a parry-riposte counter, you may take a 5ft step.

Feint Mastery: You may feint as a swift action

Flying Lunge: When you use your balestra lunge, you make move up to your full speed. In addition, whenever you make a lunge off a charge or a balestra lunge, you may fly as part of that movement.

Restriction
you may only use the fencers class abilities when wielding a one-handed slashing weapon

Maldraugedhen
2009-04-21, 08:31 PM
How about, instead of Lunge's current effect, it simply lets you take an additional 5 foot step before making your attack (in the same direction as your original five-foot step)?

So, basically, Lunge would function as a 10-foot charge that never provokes an attack of opportunity.

Here's what that would look like:

Lunge: As a standard action, you may make a (precisely) 10-foot charge once in any direction at the end of your movement (or instead of taking a 5-foot step). This charge does not provoke attacks of opportunity, nor does it give any penalties to AC afterward--and adds +2 damage to the resulting attack in addition to the usual rules for Charging. A Lunge may carry you beyond your Speed for a round.

I like quick_comment's fix for Balestra Lunge. Simpler than forcing a jump check beforehand. In combination with this Lunge fix:

Balestra Lunge: Your maximum charge distance for Lunge increases to one half your speed. You must still charge a minimum of 10 feet for it to qualify as a Lunge, and it may still carry you beyond your Speed for a round. The bonus damage from the Lunge is always equal to one fifth the distance Lunged.

Harperfan7
2009-04-21, 08:59 PM
I thought it was implied that balistra lunge was used by attacking someone 15ft. away while staying in the starting square. It doesn't say in the description that you actually move squares.

unosarta
2009-04-21, 09:15 PM
*yoink*

Here is my try at a sabre inspired fencer

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+0|Parry, Weapon Finesse, Right of Way

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+0|Uncanny Dodge

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+1|

4th|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+1|Lunge

5th|
+5|
+1|
+4|
+1|Quick Reflexes

6th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+5|
+2|Improved Uncanny Dodge

7th|
+7/+2|
+2|
+5|
+2|Balestra Lunge

8th|
+8/+3|
+2|
+6|
+2|Stop-cut, Improved Feint

9th|
+9/+4|
+3|
+6|
+3|

10th|
+10/+5|
+3|
+7|
+3|Steal Tempo 1x/day

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+3|
+7|
+3|Pris de Fer

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+4|
+8|
+4|Parry-Riposte

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+4|
+8|
+4|

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+4|
+9|
+4|Redouble

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+5|
+9|
+5|

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+10|
+5|Improved Parry-Riposte

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+5|

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+11|
+6|Feint Mastery

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+6|

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+12|
+6|Flying Lunge, Steal tempo 2x/day [/table]

Hit Dice: d8
Skills per level: (6+int bonus)*4 at first level; 6+int bonus every level.
Class Skills: The Fencerís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate(Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Nobility), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis) Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex).


Class Abilities

Proficiencies: the saberist is not proficient with any armor. The saberist is proficient with all martial slashing weapons.

Parry: Whenever an opponent attacks you with a melee attack and you have an attack of opportunity available, you may use that attack of opportunity, and make an attack roll. If your attack roll is higher than the opponents attack roll then you may force the attack to miss. you may only use this ability when you are aware of the attack.

Weapon Finesse: the saberist gains weapon finesse as a bonus feat.

Right of Way: If the saberist attacks a flatfooted or flanked opponent, he deals extra damage equal to half his saberist level.

Uncanny Dodge: at second level, the saberist gains this ability. Exactly the same as the Barbarian ability.

Lunge: at 4th level you may make an attack against a target as if you had the reach of a character one size larger than you. So for a medium sized character, you could make an attack on an opponent 10í away from you. This ability only functions with 1 and 2-handed weapons without reach already. You may apply this ability at the end of a charge. If you do, you gain +4 on the attack roll (in addition to the regular charge bonuses). You apply your right of way damage on this attack.

Quick Reflexes: At 5th level the saberist can make a number of extra AoOs each round equal to his Saberist level /5. This stacks with Combat reflexes

Balestra Lunge: At 7th level, the saberist may, as an immediate action a number of times per day equal to 1/4th his saberist level, may move up to half his speed and make an attack. He can use his lunge ability on this attack.

Improved Uncanny Dodge: at sixth level you gain this ability. Exactly the same as the barbarian ability.

Stop-cut: At 8th level, the fencer deals his right of way damage on all AoOs.

Improved Feint: You may feint as a move action, or as part of any lunge attack.

Steal Tempo: at 10th level, once per day per 10 fencer levels, you can take a standard action as an immediate action. You cannot use this ability if you are flatfooted or suprised.

Pris de fer: at 11th level, when you use your lunge attack, you may make a free disarm attempt on the opponent. You do not provoke AoOs for this, and you cannot be disarmed in turn.

Parry-Riposte: at 12th level whenever your parry attack makes an opponent miss than you may make an attack against the target. You deal right of way damage on this attack.

Redouble : At 14th level, you may treat your reach as two sizes larger when you use your lunge attack.

Improved Parry-Riposte: At 16th level, when you make a parry-riposte counter, you may take a 5ft step.

Feint Mastery: You may feint as a swift action

Flying Lunge: When you use your balestra lunge, you make move up to your full speed. In addition, whenever you make a lunge off a charge or a balestra lunge, you may fly as part of that movement.

Restriction
you may only use the fencers class abilities when wielding a one-handed slashing weapon

this is AWESOME!!! :smallbiggrin: now we just need a foil one, and the collection will be complete!

unosarta
2009-04-21, 09:19 PM
How about, instead of Lunge's current effect, it simply lets you take an additional 5 foot step before making your attack (in the same direction as your original five-foot step)?

So, basically, Lunge would function as a 10-foot charge that never provokes an attack of opportunity.

Here's what that would look like:

Lunge: As a standard action, you may make a (precisely) 10-foot charge once in any direction at the end of your movement (or instead of taking a 5-foot step). This charge does not provoke attacks of opportunity, nor does it give any penalties to AC afterward--and adds +2 damage to the resulting attack in addition to the usual rules for Charging. A Lunge may carry you beyond your Speed for a round.

I like quick_comment's fix for Balestra Lunge. Simpler than forcing a jump check beforehand. In combination with this Lunge fix:

Balestra Lunge: Your maximum charge distance for Lunge increases to one half your speed. You must still charge a minimum of 10 feet for it to qualify as a Lunge, and it may still carry you beyond your Speed for a round. The bonus damage from the Lunge is always equal to one fifth the distance Lunged.

see, I like this for balestra, but for a regular lunge, you dont actually leave your original starting point. so a charge doesnt really work for a lunge. however, i do like the balestra fix. ill just yank that :smalltongue:

although i think that your lunge would work better as a balestra instead.

Maldraugedhen
2009-04-21, 09:39 PM
You don't leave your starting point on a lunge--assuming you recover backward to guard. If you recover forward, then you do leave your starting point.

I suppose mine was closer to working assuming you were recovering forward, and yours was written assuming you were recovering back.

Mine also basically functions as a more limited Agile Footwork, reading over the other class features... As your class stands, probably makes sense to use yours.

Adding in the option to recover back to guard might make mine a bit too wordy. Plus, it would basically make it Spring Attack.

I'd say use your basic lunge, but either use the half speed rule for Balestra or go for a Jump Attack ending in a lunge.

Steal Tempo seems very, very powerful, but as this is a pure martial class with no spellcasting progression, it's safe from the most broken builds.

I think Parry should be 'when you are not flatfooted', not 'when you are aware'. If you are unaware, you are flatfooted and can't parry. But there are other situations that can cause one to be flatfooted, and I don't think you should be able to parry in those situations.

The restriction at the bottom of Saberist should read 'the saberist', not 'the fencer'.

unosarta
2009-04-21, 10:05 PM
You don't leave your starting point on a lunge--assuming you recover backward to guard. If you recover forward, then you do leave your starting point.

I suppose mine was closer to working assuming you were recovering forward, and yours was written assuming you were recovering back.

Mine also basically functions as a more limited Agile Footwork, reading over the other class features... As your class stands, probably makes sense to use yours.

Adding in the option to recover back to guard might make mine a bit too wordy. Plus, it would basically make it Spring Attack.

I'd say use your basic lunge, but either use the half speed rule for Balestra or go for a Jump Attack ending in a lunge.

Steal Tempo seems very, very powerful, but as this is a pure martial class with no spellcasting progression, it's safe from the most broken builds.

I think Parry should be 'when you are not flatfooted', not 'when you are aware'. If you are unaware, you are flatfooted and can't parry. But there are other situations that can cause one to be flatfooted, and I don't think you should be able to parry in those situations.

The restriction at the bottom of Saberist should read 'the saberist', not 'the fencer'.

good points. It would be way to hard to actually write out a recovery mechanic, so i guess it works based on view point.

but the thing about the whole flatfooted thing is... Uncanny Dodge. so unless you are unable to move, or something like that, then its not really a problem. since both give it at second level, that would be only one level where that would be a problem.

quick_comment
2009-04-21, 10:45 PM
Steal Tempo seems very, very powerful, but as this is a pure martial class with no spellcasting progression, it's safe from the most broken builds.


Even if it werent a pure martial class, its not too bad. Wizards get to do the same thing at level 8 (via celerity). This is (ex) though, and doesnt have the daze, so I think its about even.

Maldraugedhen
2009-04-22, 11:41 AM
Uncanny Dodge just lets you retain Dex on flatfoot, this is true--and if you are linking the ability to Parry to the ability to use Dexterity, that's fine. But then, you should link it all the way, and have it be dependent on when you have your Dex bonus to AC. Awareness is just one of these circumstances. A paralyzed character Str 0 is still aware, as an example, and, as written, would be still be able to parry since he is aware of the attack (no DM would let that by, of course, but makes sense to write 'em with it covered).

unosarta
2009-04-22, 02:10 PM
Uncanny Dodge just lets you retain Dex on flatfoot, this is true--and if you are linking the ability to Parry to the ability to use Dexterity, that's fine. But then, you should link it all the way, and have it be dependent on when you have your Dex bonus to AC. Awareness is just one of these circumstances. A paralyzed character Str 0 is still aware, as an example, and, as written, would be still be able to parry since he is aware of the attack (no DM would let that by, of course, but makes sense to write 'em with it covered).

OK, i can imagine someone taking it like that. i'll change it.