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maniakmastah
2009-04-20, 11:26 PM
Hey ya'll. I've statted up a 12th level character for if my current character dies, i'll have one ready to go. I've decided to make a Warforged fighter using the Warforged Paragon class from the Eberron paragons PDF and the Warforged Juggernaut prestige class. I'm always looking for suggestions to trick him out even further and make him a total melee death machine, and would like some pointers to better excel in this area. Here's what i'm working with so far.


Hit Dice: 4th level Fighter (4d10)/3rd level Warforged Paragon from Eberron Paragon PDF (3d10)/5th level Warforged Juggernaut (5d12)

Hit Points:131
Initiative:5 (1 dex +4 Improved Initiative)

Abilities
Strength:24 (18+ Belt of Giant's Strength+6)
Dexterity:12
Constitution:18
Intelligence:10
Wisdom:10
Charisma:7

Saves
Fortitude:17 (10 base+ 4 Con+ 3 Cloak of Resistance)
Reflex:9 (3 base +1 Dex +3 Cloak of Resistance+ 2 Lightning Reflexes)
Will:8 (3 base +0 Wis + 3 Cloak of Resistance + 2 Iron Will)

Base Attack:10/5
Grapple:17

Melee:17
+1 Corrosive Adamantine Battleaxe (TAB:20/15, Damage:1d8+10 Slashing + 1d6 acid; Critical: 20/x3; Ignores hardness less than 20)

Spikes (TAB: 17/12; Damage:1d8+7 Piercing; Critical:20/x3; Adamantine-coated)

Ranged:11

Masterwork Composite Longbow (TAB:12/7; Damage:1d8+7 Piercing; Critical:20/x3; has +7 Str bonus)

Armor: +2 enhancement bonus and Buoyant ability to Adamantine Body; +2 Mithral Steel Shield

AC:28 (10+ 10 [Adamantine Body with +2 enchantment]+ 4 Shield [+2 Mithral Shield with +2 enchantment]+1 Dex+ 2 Amulet of Natural Armor+1 Ring of Protection)
Flat Foot:27
Touch:12

Skills
Climb:9 (2 ranks+7)
Craft Armorsmithing:12 (12 ranks+0)
Craft Weaponsmithing:7 (7 ranks+0)
Listen (cross):1 (1 ranks +0)
Spot (cross):1 (1 ranks +0)
Swim:10 (1 rank +7 +2 from Buoyant, no armor check penalty to Swim checks)
Use Rope (cross):3 (2 ranks +1)

Feats
Adamantine Body: +8 to AC, DR2/Adamantine
Power Attack:Trade Base Attack for Damage
Improved Bull Rush:+4 to Bull Rush attempts/does not provoke AoO
Lightning Reflexes:+2 to Reflex Saves
Weapon Focus Battleaxe:+1 to attack rolls with battleaxes
Improved Sunder:+4 to Sunder attempts/does not provoke AoO
Improved Initiative:+4 to Initiative checks
Weapon Specialization Battleaxe: +2 to damage rolls with battleaxe
Iron Will:+2 to Will Saves

Powerful Charge:+1d8 damage on successful charge (from Juggernaut)
Greater Powerful Charge:treated as 1 size larger (+2d6 on successful charge, from Juggernaut)

Racial Abilities
-Immune to Poison, sleep effects, paralysis, fatigue, nausea, exhaustion, effects that cause the sickened condition, and energy drain
-Cannot heal damage naturally, bt can be repaired
-takes damage from rust attacks
-Does not need to sleep, eat, or breathe
-can be raised or resurrected
-Natural Slam Attack (1d4+7 damage)

Class Abilities
From Warforged Paragon
Superior Vision (Low Light vision/darkvision 60 ft)
Bonus feat (factored into feats)
Magical Insight: +2 racial bonus on all Appraise, Craft and Use Magic Device checks that relate to constructs and magic items.
+2 ability boost to Constitution

From Warforged Juggernaut
Armor Spikes (see melee)
Expert Bull Rush (add class level to bull rush attempts [both making and defending] and Strength checks for breaking down doors)
Reserved (-5 penalty to Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Sense Motive checks)
Powerful Charge as a bonus feat
Charge Bonus:+2 to Charging, for a total of +4
Construct Perfection 1 (Not subject to nonlethal damage & critical hits)
Extended Charge:+5 to speed when making a charge
Construct Perfection 2 (Immune to all mind affecting spells and abilities [charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects])
Healing Immunity (immune to spells from the healing subschool, no longer benefits from the effects of consumable spells and magic items, like heroes' feast or potions)
Superior Bull Rush (deal damage equal to armor spikes + STR against opponents in addition to normal results of a bull rush. Add damage from Greater Powerful Charge as well if bull rush was made as part of a charge)
Construct Perfection 3 (Immune to death effects and necromancy effects)
Construct Perfection 4 (Not subject to ability damage or ability drain)
Greater Powerful Charge gained as bonus feat

Equipment
Heward's Handy Haversack (holds 120 lbs./weighs only 5 lbs., currently holding 40 lbs., not going into detail of mundane gear)
+1 Corrosive Adamantine Battleaxe
+2 enhancement bonus and Buoyant ability added to body
+2 Mithral Heavy Shield
Masterwork Composite Longbow with +7 STR bonus
Belt of Giant's Strength +6
Cloak of Resistance +3
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Ring of Protection +1
Masterwork Potion Belt, holding 5 oils of Repair Moderate Damage


Sorry for the heavy amount of reading and the mass of detail, but this is just what to show what i'm working with right now. As you can see, he's mainly melee and close combat oriented, and doesn't have many skills, so I put the majority of his skill points on skills that would be most important to him, at least in my eyes. Feats-wise, i chose feats that best complement close combat and aggression. Tell me what you guys think and let me know if there are any ways to improve him.

Efstrofos
2009-04-21, 12:39 AM
What books do you have access to? Also I can't find the Warforged Paragon, so what exactly does give you?

Right away you can drop weapon focus, weapon specialization, and improved sunder. Depending on what books you have you can replace them with some really good charging feats, or if not I would change the fighter levels for barbarian levels. You'll get way more benefit from raging than both weapon focus and weapon specialization combined. Also you really should be using your weapon in 2 Hands, so I would either try to get an animated shield or just drop the shield completely.

I can help more when I know which books you have.

edit: Since you're immune to mind-affecting abilities you could also probably do with out iron will. If you were to go the barbarian route then I would replace it with extra rage.

herrhauptmann
2009-04-21, 01:18 AM
I recommend everbright weapons. Immune to rust and acid damage. (MIC)
Can your armor be damaged directly? Like by oozes, rust monsters, and those corrosive demons? If so, go for blueshine armor on that. I'm pretty sure both it and everbright are flat rate enhancements (+3000 or somesuch)
I'll second the need for a dancing shield, now you can fight with 2 hands on your weapon, and can swap to 1 hand when you enter an AMF or your shield gets temporarily dispelled.
As written, you can't put blueshine on your shield though.
(It sucks if the DM decides to send a few weapon damaging monsters at you, especially if there's no replacements in the loot)

Do you plan to use your shield for bashing damage against certain monsters? If not, I say go for a dancing tower shield, and get a magic bludgeoning weapon. Nothing fancy, just for use on the days when slashing/piercing don't cut it.

Depending on the fights the DM throws at you, Armor spec can be useful with its limited DR <=3 /-. (Most people here say it's useless, but I throw it out as an option)

Why sunder? Are you taking that as a prereq for something? With an adamant weapon and sunder, I assume you're looking at combat brute.
Instead of combat brute, bull rush and shocktrooper might be better with your strength. And you can combine that with the dungeoncrasher fighter variant (I forget what he gives up, but his gains are in the area of bull rushes and charges I think)
An unusual option: Gain the Mettle ability. It works like Evasion, but for Fort and Will saves. However, the only way I know to gain it, is Pious Templar (Com Divine) which requires 4 ranks in knowledge, weapon focus, and True believer. You won't need the will half of that with your 'Perfect Construct 2'. But the Fort side of it will be nice, especially since your fort save is already a +17.

I don't know too much about warforged, so I can't really help you on anything that is specific to a warforged.
What are you looking at getting into a few levels down the line?

ok: That top is a little random, but stil valid...

maniakmastah
2009-04-21, 02:37 AM
What books do you have access to? Also I can't find the Warforged Paragon, so what exactly does give you?

Right away you can drop weapon focus, weapon specialization, and improved sunder. Depending on what books you have you can replace them with some really good charging feats, or if not I would change the fighter levels for barbarian levels. You'll get way more benefit from raging than both weapon focus and weapon specialization combined. Also you really should be using your weapon in 2 Hands, so I would either try to get an animated shield or just drop the shield completely.

I can help more when I know which books you have.

edit: Since you're immune to mind-affecting abilities you could also probably do with out iron will. If you were to go the barbarian route then I would replace it with extra rage.

The Warforged Paragon class comes from a PDF a friend of mine e-mailed me.
It's a 3 level class that gives as follows

1st level- BA+1 Fort+2 Ref+0 Will+0 Superior Vision (gain low-light vision/darkvision 60 ft.)

2nd level-BA+2 Fort+3 Ref+0 Will+0 Bonus fighter/warforged feat, Magical Insight (+2 racial bonus on all Appraise, Craft, and Use Magic Device checks related to constructs and magic items)

3rd level-BA+3 Fort+3 Ref+1 Will+1 Ability Boost (Con +2)

As for what books i have. Alot of them are stored on DVD, but i do have some with me, they include Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer, 3.5 Quintessential Fighter, Unearthed Arcana, and Magic Items Compendium. Most of the other ones are on DVD i burned from a friend. Mention them, i may have them.

I can definitely see the benefits of making him a barbarian, but if i changed the levels, than i'd take an XP penalty for a good while, since my DM stated that levels from Paragon would count towards XP penalties for uneven levels (it's a basic class that just requires being a warforged). Still, if i dump 1 level from Paragon and replace it with a barbarian level and just leave it like that til i level up, i can gain the rage ability, albeit only 1/day, and soup up his melee abilities, or just dump the Paragon levels entirely and replace them with barbarian, then i could still keep my Juggernaut levels and also progress as a barbarian ( i had originally taken them to gain the superior vision and con boost, but these are minor at most, and possibly limiting now that i think about it). Thanks a million, this could be useful.

I got the shield to help give him some protection when facing creatures up close, though since he hasn't hit play yet ( as much as i like warforged, i don't plan on my rogue dying anytime soon, at least by choice), i should be able to change things up. I tried to get as much as could with the gold i had (the belt is what ate a huge chunk of it), maybe replace the +2 bonus with the animated ability, that way i can switch the battleaxe to a greataxe. And as for improved Sunder, well, i thought that would be good for a high strength character with an adamant weapon, but what would be a good replacement.

I know Iron Will sounds like an odd choice, since I'll rarely (if ever) need to make a Will save, but paranoia kinda prompted me to get it, but if it's really not needed, then maybe swap it out with a more combat oriented feat.

In any case, i really appreciate all the help, and i'm jotting all this info down for ideas. Thank you.

maniakmastah
2009-04-21, 02:59 AM
I recommend everbright weapons. Immune to rust and acid damage. (MIC)
Can your armor be damaged directly? Like by oozes, rust monsters, and those corrosive demons? If so, go for blueshine armor on that. I'm pretty sure both it and everbright are flat rate enhancements (+3000 or somesuch)
I'll second the need for a dancing shield, now you can fight with 2 hands on your weapon, and can swap to 1 hand when you enter an AMF or your shield gets temporarily dispelled.
As written, you can't put blueshine on your shield though.
(It sucks if the DM decides to send a few weapon damaging monsters at you, especially if there's no replacements in the loot)

Do you plan to use your shield for bashing damage against certain monsters? If not, I say go for a dancing tower shield, and get a magic bludgeoning weapon. Nothing fancy, just for use on the days when slashing/piercing don't cut it.

Depending on the fights the DM throws at you, Armor spec can be useful with its limited DR <=3 /-. (Most people here say it's useless, but I throw it out as an option)

Why sunder? Are you taking that as a prereq for something? With an adamant weapon and sunder, I assume you're looking at combat brute.
Instead of combat brute, bull rush and shocktrooper might be better with your strength. And you can combine that with the dungeoncrasher fighter variant (I forget what he gives up, but his gains are in the area of bull rushes and charges I think)
An unusual option: Gain the Mettle ability. It works like Evasion, but for Fort and Will saves. However, the only way I know to gain it, is Pious Templar (Com Divine) which requires 4 ranks in knowledge, weapon focus, and True believer. You won't need the will half of that with your 'Perfect Construct 2'. But the Fort side of it will be nice, especially since your fort save is already a +17.

I don't know too much about warforged, so I can't really help you on anything that is specific to a warforged.
What are you looking at getting into a few levels down the line?

ok: That top is a little random, but stil valid...

The everbright enchantment on my weapon i may consider, but if i remember from before the thread purge, there was an argument thread about the Blueshine ability and Warforged about it making them immune to acid damage/rust attacks and it descended into a big pile of rage. It would be nice if i could, but for Blueshine on a warforged's body, i'd have to check with my DM on that part.

Well,since a warforged's armor is built-in and is essentially their body, it wouldn't be able to be damage since they actually aren't in armor (though it can be enchanted and souped up like armor) and that rust attacks just damage them, since it's kind of a racial thing.

The shield may be used for bashing, depending on what mood i'm in.

Armor spec? which book does that come from.

Sunder i got since i could use his high strength with an adamant weapon to break a deadly enemy's weapon if needed, but i may replace it if i can find something better. Shock Trooper may be one of them, and i like how you can do multiple stuff with it. And which book does Dungeoncrasher variant come from, is it Unearthed Arcana?

I may check out Complete Divine, if for no other reason than to open up more options. As for later down the line, i dunno, but my goal at 25th level is to gain the Legendary Dreadnought class, since it fits in well with a charge right in and smash style fighter. As for what comes in between, who knows, but i may just concentrate on his fighter/barbarian levels.

Anyway, thanks for all the useful advice. I appreciate it.

Bluebeard
2009-04-21, 03:40 AM
Dungeoncrasher's in Dungeonscape and adds a heap of damage to your bull rush when you plow an enemy into a wall.
It also gives bonuses to smash down doors.
It replaces the Fighter's Level 2 (and level 6 for even more damage) feat.
Seems to fit in nicely with Warforged Juggernaut.

I think I'd prefer to play a Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Paragon 3/Juggernaut without either Weapon Focus feat, Dungeoncrasher and Barbarian levels instead.

That is if you're attached to the Paragon class.

Bayar
2009-04-21, 03:49 AM
Warforged Totemist 8/Barbarian 2/Totem Rager 10

Feats:

1st: Jaws of Death
Flaw 1: Expanded Soulmeld Capacity
Flaw 2: Cerulean Will
3rd: Multiattack
6th: Cobalt Rage
9th: Extra Rage
12th: Double Chakra (Totem)
15th: Second Slam
18th: Split Chakra (Arms)

This build is a monster in combat. Even from level 1, it shows what true ferocity can be with a pair of attacks (Bite+Slam). As soon as you hit 2nd, your damage output triples with the Girallon Arms meld. At 3rd, your chances of hitting increase. At 6th, you gain the house of all houses: Cobalt Rage. From this point until 17th, you are taking levels in Totem Rager.

An alternate route to conserve on Soulmelds is to drop Cerulean Will for Dragon Tail (Races of the Dragon) by being a Dragonborn or taking Dragontouched. This is less house-rules dependent, but more feat and item-intense.

Swap out the Fast Movement for Pounce via CC's Lion Totem variant. This easily breaks the combat wide open, as it allows you to dish out the damage on a Charge with ease.

Invest as much Essentia into the Girallon Arms and into one other Soulmeld (like Landshark Boots or Sphinx Claws) as you can afford. Then make sure the rest is in Cobalt Rage. While not needed, Rage Claws do have a nice touch to them.

If you can afford the PB, Dragonborn is a nice way to get extra HP. And it opens up another trick: The Dragon Tail feat from races of the Dragon. At the cost of your Composite Plating (and possibly your two slams) you get a Tail attack at 1st level. Vicious doesn't even start to describe it.

A good item to have is the Shadow Hand Gloves from the Bo9S (and have the Assassin's Stance as the 3rd level maneuver it grants). Heavily debatable, but man does it hurt if it is allowed.

I leave out Rapidstrike and its older brother for a few reasons: 1) BAB requirements puts it at the later-levels when it won't make much of a difference, and 2) Wrong race

Weapon focus is for pansies. Go bite someone's face off with this cute metalic monster. Just take the first 2-3 levels of it, get barbarian for rage and finish off with the Juggernaut. Although a FLYING robot of fists and claws and metal mouth would look so much cooler IMO.

Plus, remember, sundering your loot is a bad idea.

Efstrofos
2009-04-21, 04:04 AM
Well more than one level barbarian doesn't give you much that the feat extra rage can't give you. If you like the dungeon crasher idea try something like Barb 1/Fighter 6 (dungeon crasher variant)/ Juggernaught 5

Feats:
Power Attack
Improved Bullrush
Adamantine Body
Shock Trooper
Iron Will (I would actually add Leap Attack here)
Extra Rage
Improved Initiative


Dungeon Crasher allows you to do serious damage when you bull rush, and shock trooper allows you to have way more control over where you can bull rush people. From level 6 Dungeon Crasher Fighter your bull rush deals 8d6 + 3x Str bonus. This combined with your abilities from Warforged Jugg, your bull rushes would do a TON of damage.

Shock trooper also allows you to dump AC instead of attack when charging and power attacking, so you can power attack for max and pretty much always hit.

Also, and this is just personal opinion. I think it fits the flavor very well. A big spikey metal machine running around enraged, slamming his body into everyone and crushing them against terrain.

herrhauptmann
2009-04-21, 10:23 AM
Armor specialization is PHB2.
I don't know about warforged paragon, but the rest of the paragon levels from Unearthed Arcana do NOT contribute to multiclassing penalties. Think of it, it's not really training in a combat class or anything, you're just becoming distilled down into the essence of your race. Dwarves become more dwarfish, half orcs can become more human or more orc. Warforged become even more of what they are, a selfwilled machine of death. Plus that +2 stat boost after 3 levels is always nice.

oxybe
2009-04-21, 11:26 AM
Warforged barb 3 / ftr 2 / Warforged juggernaut 4 / frenzied barb 3

suggested progression - last level of WFJ, then the last 7 levels of FB

feats
1 - Adamantine Body
f1 - Power Attack
3 - Improved Bull Rush
f2 - cleave
6 - destructive rage
WFJ1 - Powerful Charge
9 - Intimidating rage
12 - shock trooper

suggested feat progression
WFJ5 - Greater Powerful Charge
15 - Leap attack
18 - Improved Sunder

-use the lion barbarian variant in Complete Champion to gain pounce (full attack on a charge)
-Frenzied barbarian, combat brute, shock trooper & the 2 rage feats are in Complete Warrior
-weapon? anything big and 2-handed. you pretty much don't even need a magic weapon. your attack bonus of 18 (22 on charge should let you hit most enemies full on without problem)
-tactic? full power attack on charge. shock trooper lets you drops your AC instead of your attack bonus on a charge-fueled power attack. so every time you charge you gain an extra 1d8+22 damage on your first attack and +22 on your second & third attacks. at FB levels 5 & 8 you get a 3:1 and 4:1 power attack return respectively, so your damage will skyrocket at those levels.
-if you can manage a 10 foot jump on a charge at level 15 you will gain a 3x power attack damage modifier by leap attack feat (complete adventurer, requires 8 ranks of jump)
-also, WFJ allows you ignore the subdual damage from the Frenzy

also note that your DM might just shoot you in the face with a pneumatic hammer gun.

maniakmastah
2009-04-21, 12:40 PM
Armor specialization is PHB2.
I don't know about warforged paragon, but the rest of the paragon levels from Unearthed Arcana do NOT contribute to multiclassing penalties. Think of it, it's not really training in a combat class or anything, you're just becoming distilled down into the essence of your race. Dwarves become more dwarfish, half orcs can become more human or more orc. Warforged become even more of what they are, a selfwilled machine of death. Plus that +2 stat boost after 3 levels is always nice.

I know what ya mean, but it was my DM's decision, and i'll just have to play by that rule for now. If i can talk with him and convince him about this, i may go the Paragon route later.

Kylarra
2009-04-21, 12:46 PM
I realize it may be houseruled, but by RAW:

Levels in racial paragon classes never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.
So you may want to talk with your DM about that.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm

herrhauptmann
2009-04-21, 02:37 PM
Good luck on the convincing.
Maybe with blueshine, you can convince him to allow it by saying: It doesn't damage your armor itself, but you yourself still take damage.

I mean, if the armor is a part of you, what happens if your armor recieves the 40 or so points of acid damage from an ooze and that destroys it? Most characters can just get a new suit made, or loot one. You, your armor is a part of you. Can a warforged just buy armor off the rack like other characters?

Hyooz
2009-04-21, 02:41 PM
As a bit of an aside, if you're looking for a slightly different way of being scary in melee, you could look into the Soul Eater class. Warforged is the easiest way to get in, and as long as your DM doesn't mind a class that is supposed to be especially despicably evil, there isn't much more fun than full attacking for upwards of 12 negative levels at a time.

maniakmastah
2009-04-21, 08:00 PM
Good luck on the convincing.
Maybe with blueshine, you can convince him to allow it by saying: It doesn't damage your armor itself, but you yourself still take damage.

I mean, if the armor is a part of you, what happens if your armor recieves the 40 or so points of acid damage from an ooze and that destroys it? Most characters can just get a new suit made, or loot one. You, your armor is a part of you. Can a warforged just buy armor off the rack like other characters?

That's how i always interpreted it when i first read that thread, since if you really think about it, getting acid immunity and rust immunity for just 1,500 is kinda unfair to others, especially since those high level Rings of Elemental Resistance and Rings of Elemental Immunity don't come cheap. And from the Warforged description in Eberron, rust damages since it's a inherent racial weakness as well as a weakness from having metal skin. I try this approach to him and see how it plays out.

maniakmastah
2009-04-21, 08:02 PM
Well more than one level barbarian doesn't give you much that the feat extra rage can't give you. If you like the dungeon crasher idea try something like Barb 1/Fighter 6 (dungeon crasher variant)/ Juggernaught 5

Feats:
Power Attack
Improved Bullrush
Adamantine Body
Shock Trooper
Iron Will (I would actually add Leap Attack here)
Extra Rage
Improved Initiative


Dungeon Crasher allows you to do serious damage when you bull rush, and shock trooper allows you to have way more control over where you can bull rush people. From level 6 Dungeon Crasher Fighter your bull rush deals 8d6 + 3x Str bonus. This combined with your abilities from Warforged Jugg, your bull rushes would do a TON of damage.

Shock trooper also allows you to dump AC instead of attack when charging and power attacking, so you can power attack for max and pretty much always hit.

Also, and this is just personal opinion. I think it fits the flavor very well. A big spikey metal machine running around enraged, slamming his body into everyone and crushing them against terrain.

Lol, it's like you can read my mind, because that's how i originally perceived him from a backstory perspective, a warforged with a strong arm and a bad attitude, and just one eye tic away from going on a rampage. This build fits that role perfectly. Thanks a million

maniakmastah
2009-04-21, 08:06 PM
Warforged barb 3 / ftr 2 / Warforged juggernaut 4 / frenzied barb 3

suggested progression - last level of WFJ, then the last 7 levels of FB

feats
1 - Adamantine Body
f1 - Power Attack
3 - Improved Bull Rush
f2 - cleave
6 - destructive rage
WFJ1 - Powerful Charge
9 - Intimidating rage
12 - shock trooper

suggested feat progression
WFJ5 - Greater Powerful Charge
15 - Leap attack
18 - Improved Sunder

-use the lion barbarian variant in Complete Champion to gain pounce (full attack on a charge)
-Frenzied barbarian, combat brute, shock trooper & the 2 rage feats are in Complete Warrior
-weapon? anything big and 2-handed. you pretty much don't even need a magic weapon. your attack bonus of 18 (22 on charge should let you hit most enemies full on without problem)
-tactic? full power attack on charge. shock trooper lets you drops your AC instead of your attack bonus on a charge-fueled power attack. so every time you charge you gain an extra 1d8+22 damage on your first attack and +22 on your second & third attacks. at FB levels 5 & 8 you get a 3:1 and 4:1 power attack return respectively, so your damage will skyrocket at those levels.
-if you can manage a 10 foot jump on a charge at level 15 you will gain a 3x power attack damage modifier by leap attack feat (complete adventurer, requires 8 ranks of jump)
-also, WFJ allows you ignore the subdual damage from the Frenzy

also note that your DM might just shoot you in the face with a pneumatic hammer gun.

I'm in the process of trying to convince my DM to let me use the Dungeon Crasher fighter variant AND the Lion Totem Barbarian variant for my character. I'm also considering taking levels in Frenzied Berserker (once i get the feats) instead of saving for Legendary Dreadnought (i can always get the feats through fighter bonus feats) and concentrating on good Prestige classes and feats that support charges and bull rushes. Could i still get that massive damage from wielding a battleaxe(a 1handed weapon) in two hands, since i still plan on using an animated shield?

Bluebeard
2009-04-21, 08:29 PM
Damage doesn't come from weapons. It comes from bonuses.
Any weapon used with two hands is the same. Wider Crit ranges are usually better, but it doesn't really matter.

VirOath
2009-04-21, 09:05 PM
Good luck on the convincing.
Maybe with blueshine, you can convince him to allow it by saying: It doesn't damage your armor itself, but you yourself still take damage.

I mean, if the armor is a part of you, what happens if your armor recieves the 40 or so points of acid damage from an ooze and that destroys it? Most characters can just get a new suit made, or loot one. You, your armor is a part of you. Can a warforged just buy armor off the rack like other characters?

IIRC, aren't Warforge bodies counted as armor? They can't wear it, but they can get their body enchanted as though it was a suit of armor. Feats like Mithril Body and such change the material of the Warforge, but can only be taken during creation.

DDO did put in bangles to allow WF characters to 'wear' armor, but this was a game balance decision, not fluff or RAW.

A Warforge can never have his armor sundered or destroyed, since it is his skin. He would have to die first.

Efstrofos
2009-04-22, 12:24 AM
Lol, it's like you can read my mind, because that's how i originally perceived him from a backstory perspective, a warforged with a strong arm and a bad attitude, and just one eye tic away from going on a rampage. This build fits that role perfectly. Thanks a million

Glad I could help.

oxybe
2009-04-22, 05:35 AM
as for a battle-axe 2 handed... i really don't know if that counts as a 2-hander for the sake of power attack. i checked the rules on p.113 of the PHB for "one/two handed weapons" and p.98 for a better description of "power attack" and it does look like adding the extra hand makes it effectively a 2-hander for all intents and purposes of face smashing.

the thing with a build like the one i proposed, is that the damage comes not from the weapon, but the static modifiers. for an idea of what a full power attack will look like, remember that rage+frenzy stacks for +10 str (+14 if you're FB8). in total, your strength will be 34 (+12).

2-handed [weapon]+[enchantment]+18 (str*1.5) +216 (18 BAB x 4 SPA x3 LA)

that is +244 static damage right there. a +2 battleaxe will net you an average of 6.5 damage. so your average on a full charging leap attack is 250 per attack. so about 750 a round if all attacks hit.

the weapon used is largely irrelevant and mostly thematic, so i'm glad you chose the noble axe instead of that dirty girl, the longsword :smallyuk:.

maniakmastah
2009-04-22, 10:10 AM
as for a battle-axe 2 handed... i really don't know if that counts as a 2-hander for the sake of power attack. i checked the rules on p.113 of the PHB for "one/two handed weapons" and p.98 for a better description of "power attack" and it does look like adding the extra hand makes it effectively a 2-hander for all intents and purposes of face smashing.

the thing with a build like the one i proposed, is that the damage comes not from the weapon, but the static modifiers. for an idea of what a full power attack will look like, remember that rage+frenzy stacks for +10 str (+14 if you're FB8). in total, your strength will be 34 (+12).

2-handed [weapon]+[enchantment]+18 (str*1.5) +216 (18 BAB x 4 SPA x3 LA)

that is +244 static damage right there. a +2 battleaxe will net you an average of 6.5 damage. so your average on a full charging leap attack is 250 per attack. so about 750 a round if all attacks hit.

the weapon used is largely irrelevant and mostly thematic, so i'm glad you chose the noble axe instead of that dirty girl, the longsword :smallyuk:.

Wow.......I knew they stacked but i didn't think the damage was going to be around that area. I settled on an intended build already, but i do intend to get the feats needed for this PrC, so i 18th level, i'll have the prerequisites for Frenzied Berserker, figured it would be a better route to go than Dreadnought, which i wouldn't be able to take til 25th level.

Lol, yeah, swords are overrated these days, you never hear any good things about axes or hammers in movies or shows now. It fits him too, an angry warforged doesn't use an elegant weapon, he uses a melon splitter like a battleaxe, and that's why i also gave him a masterwork warhammer as a side weapon, for when he feels like hammering in some skulls.

oxybe
2009-04-22, 11:02 AM
yeah, a LOT of that damage is based off Leap Attack since, in essence, it doubles the Power Attack damage (triples since you use a 2-hander). this boosts the Supreme Power Attack ratio from 4:1 to 12:1. you can boost it to even higher numbers of ridiculous but i'll leave that to the actual CharOPs pros.

note that it really only becomes ridiculous when you add LA. without it you only get a 2:1/3:1/4:1 (PA/GPA/SPA).

stacking of bonuses is also the reason that charging is so powerful. the more multipliers you can stack together, the bigger the final number.

herrhauptmann
2009-04-22, 08:47 PM
yeah, a LOT of that damage is based off Leap Attack since, in essence, it doubles the Power Attack damage (triples since you use a 2-hander). this boosts the Supreme Power Attack ratio from 4:1 to 12:1. you can boost it to even higher numbers of ridiculous but i'll leave that to the actual CharOPs pros.

note that it really only becomes ridiculous when you add LA. without it you only get a 2:1/3:1/4:1 (PA/GPA/SPA).

stacking of bonuses is also the reason that charging is so powerful. the more multipliers you can stack together, the bigger the final number.

Oxybe, when you double something that is already doubled, it just becomes tripled. Not quadrupled.
So should be same logic, doubling a x4 should become x5. So tripling a x4 should become x7 I think.

Maniak, while you're working your DM, try asking for Whirling Frenzy variant(Unearthed Arcana I think). It has some odd effects, but the notable one is an extra attack at your highest bab. Though all attacks take a penalty. So, dungeon crashing, whirling frenzy spirit lion totem warforged juggernaut. You're now a battle top! http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/4934

oxybe
2009-04-22, 09:15 PM
i did not know that. the thing with LA is that is states that it triples the extra damage done with PA so i tripled the total.

still though... a 7:1 return is pretty darned good.

MustacheFart
2009-04-22, 09:55 PM
Oxybe, when you double something that is already doubled, it just becomes tripled. Not quadrupled.
So should be same logic, doubling a x4 should become x5. So tripling a x4 should become x7 I think.

The rule you are thinking of I believe is called the rule of trippling or whatever. Either way, trippling a x4 would net you a x6 not a x7. The formula is as follows:

Highest Multiplier + (next highest multiplier - 1) + (next highest multiplier - 1) + (Etc... Etc...) = Total Multiplier

Therefore in the above, you would have: 4 + 2(3 - 1) = 6

That's how the rule works but whether it applies to LA I guess is a DM call.

----------


that's why i also gave him a masterwork warhammer as a side weapon, for when he feels like hammering in some skulls.

Now, your DM sounds like a bit of a stickler so he may not allow this (understandably) but if you can talk your DM into allowing access to Exotic Weapons, I suggest doing the followin:

Take Exotice Weapon Proficiency(Great Hammer) and pick up a Great Hammer from MM4. Stats for Great Hammer are: 1d12 19-20/x4. Throw the Impact enhancement on it and you are looking at 17-20/x4.

You want to smash skulls? The Great Hammer is your man! Or blunt weapon as the case may be!

Other suggestion: if you end up taking Intimidating Rage (which is a Prereq for FB) try to pick up Imperious Command. Basically, this feat says whenever you demoralize an enemy they cower the first round and then are shaken. Nothing like stopping your enemy in his tracks so you can bonk him! And, hell, a big flailing robotic monster is damn scary!!!


I have a warforged build myself, that I am working on in case my Drow Fearmonger ever gets killed. Should my character die, his soul shall awaken in a Warforged monster dedicated only to one thing -- destruction! I plan to utilize the Great Hammer and call him simply: BOOM SHAKALAKA!

herrhauptmann
2009-04-22, 10:13 PM
i did not know that. the thing with LA is that is states that it triples the extra damage done with PA so i tripled the total.

still though... a 7:1 return is pretty darned good.

No worries, I did the same for a while, specifically with crit ranges. (Also didn't realize certain crit mods didn't stack) So I was rolling crit threats on a 10-20.

x6 is still nice. So a +108 if you powerattack for full, on each attack. And at level, what 12? That's 4 attacks. 12/12/7/2, all at a -2 because of whirling frenzy. So a bonus +432 damage if you hit with all 4. And since that last one is likely to only hit on a crit, it would be triple damage (waraxe right?) so +324 from PA on that one alone. 648 total. (assuming all 4 hit, and 1 confirmed crit among them) [/rambling]

MustacheFart
2009-04-22, 10:56 PM
x6 is still nice. So a +108 if you powerattack for full, on each attack. And at level, what 12? That's 4 attacks. 12/12/7/2, all at a -2 because of whirling frenzy. So a bonus +432 damage if you hit with all 4. And since that last one is likely to only hit on a crit, it would be triple damage (waraxe right?) so +324 from PA on that one alone. 648 total. (assuming all 4 hit, and 1 confirmed crit among them) [/rambling]

Just curious, how did you get +108? I come up with 63 with PA for full at level 12, not counting in weapon damage, just PA + LA + Str (15 from str + 48 from PA + LA = 63). You aren't going to have the imp. frenzy or SPA at level 12 with the above build. :smallconfused:


Oh well, check out the damage utilizing a Great Hammer on a level 20 build:

25(45 str: Rage + Frenzy + stat bumps + a +6 str item) + 120(PA for full: 20 x 6) = 145 per attack. For BAB, with Whirling Frenzy and Haste, you'd have: 18/18/18/13/8/3. Factor in str and you got: 35/35/35/30/25/20.

If all attacks hit (which with a +20 for the lowest is pretty often) you total damage would be: 145 * 6 = 870!

If you managed to crit on all of them (using a Great Hammer) you'd be looking at damage of: 580 * 6 = 3480!!!

You can obviously go way higher than this as many have. Also damage from the weapon itself wasn't added. But, just think, a Coup de Grace of 580!

Take the Knockback feat and then everytime you hit while Power Attacking (for full duh!) you make a free bullrush attempt at +40!!!

Why crush skulls when you can literally *SPLAT* people? You can literally paint the town red!

maniakmastah
2009-04-22, 11:14 PM
The rule you are thinking of I believe is called the rule of trippling or whatever. Either way, trippling a x4 would net you a x6 not a x7. The formula is as follows:

Highest Multiplier + (next highest multiplier - 1) + (next highest multiplier - 1) + (Etc... Etc...) = Total Multiplier

Therefore in the above, you would have: 4 + 2(3 - 1) = 6

That's how the rule works but whether it applies to LA I guess is a DM call.

----------



Now, your DM sounds like a bit of a stickler so he may not allow this (understandably) but if you can talk your DM into allowing access to Exotic Weapons, I suggest doing the followin:

Take Exotice Weapon Proficiency(Great Hammer) and pick up a Great Hammer from MM4. Stats for Great Hammer are: 1d12 19-20/x4. Throw the Impact enhancement on it and you are looking at 17-20/x4.

You want to smash skulls? The Great Hammer is your man! Or blunt weapon as the case may be!

Other suggestion: if you end up taking Intimidating Rage (which is a Prereq for FB) try to pick up Imperious Command. Basically, this feat says whenever you demoralize an enemy they cower the first round and then are shaken. Nothing like stopping your enemy in his tracks so you can bonk him! And, hell, a big flailing robotic monster is damn scary!!!


I have a warforged build myself, that I am working on in case my Drow Fearmonger ever gets killed. Should my character die, his soul shall awaken in a Warforged monster dedicated only to one thing -- destruction! I plan to utilize the Great Hammer and call him simply: BOOM SHAKALAKA!

LOL, i joked with another player about calling my warforged's nickname as Snow Plow, or Steamroller, or Wrecking Ball, or even Aspirin, as he cures your headache by making you ache somewhere else, or just taking off your head (we call his dwarf Sherman, as in a Sherman tank).

maniakmastah
2009-04-22, 11:23 PM
Oxybe, when you double something that is already doubled, it just becomes tripled. Not quadrupled.
So should be same logic, doubling a x4 should become x5. So tripling a x4 should become x7 I think.

Maniak, while you're working your DM, try asking for Whirling Frenzy variant(Unearthed Arcana I think). It has some odd effects, but the notable one is an extra attack at your highest bab. Though all attacks take a penalty. So, dungeon crashing, whirling frenzy spirit lion totem warforged juggernaut. You're now a battle top! http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/4934

I could try asking him, but i think i was already pushing it with Dungeon Crasher & Lion Totem. He agreed to allow both of them, but i don't wanna try to push my luck further than i have too. I read the last of Whirling Frenzy, looks nice, but doesn't it say that you can't use it at the same time you use any other rage or similar rage ability. Do they not stack?

MustacheFart
2009-04-22, 11:33 PM
I could try asking him, but i think i was already pushing it with Dungeon Crasher & Lion Totem. He agreed to allow both of them, but i don't wanna try to push my luck further than i have too. I read the last of Whirling Frenzy, looks nice, but doesn't it say that you can't use it at the same time you use any other rage or similar rage ability. Do they not stack?

Ya, I've seen that wording too. By the literal interpretation, Whirling Frenzy would NOT stack with FB's Frenzy. However, I've had every DM I've tried to use the combo under, give me the okay.

If you had to push it to get Dungeon Crasher & Lion Totem, then I'd say just stick with the normal Rage. The normal rage is still just about as good. You won't be getting as may attacks per round but with the damage you'll be pumping out, you shouldn't really need 1 more attack. Also you can still utilize things like Haste and the Snap Kick feat (extra attack per round, all at -2, prereq is only BAB 12 I think).


Not to jack your topic but I have a question. Would the knockback feat work with Dungeoncrasher? Knockback says you get a free bullrush so if you literally hammered someone into a wall you'd get the bonus damage from Dungeoncrasher, right?

herrhauptmann
2009-04-22, 11:38 PM
Just curious, how did you get +108? I come up with 63 with PA for full at level 12, not counting in weapon damage, just PA + LA + Str (15 from str + 48 from PA + LA = 63). You aren't going to have the imp. frenzy or SPA at level 12 with the above build. :smallconfused:



Because for some reason I did 18(BAB)*6(PA)... Can't quite remember why...

maniakmastah
2009-04-22, 11:42 PM
i did not know that. the thing with LA is that is states that it triples the extra damage done with PA so i tripled the total.

still though... a 7:1 return is pretty darned good.

Agreed, that's why i plan on taking Frenzied Berserker at 19th level (can get Cleave as a bonus fighter feat easy enough, and Devastating Rage at 15, and Intimidating Rage at 18). I'm thinking of switching out Improved Initiative for Power Lunge from Ghostwalk. Basically on a successful hit on a charge, you add double your normal Strength modifier to the attack's damage, regardless of whether you're using one- or two-handed weapons. The downside is that you provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent you charge. Also, if i do this, he'll have an init modifier of +1, so he'd have to roll pretty high. Greater damage on a charge, or high init mod, which would be better. Would Legendary Dreadnought also be a good class to consider at later levels.

MustacheFart
2009-04-22, 11:49 PM
Greater damage on a charge, or high init mod, which would be better.

I'd say greater damage on a charge no question. You're already going to take some hits sometimes; especially, if you utilize Shock Trooper but you got enough hit points to soak it. The only time it could hurt that I can think of is when charging another uber melee damage dealer.

Also imp init is only a +4, which is nice but not that great. Odds are if you encounter any fellow melee damage houses they won't have it either. Those that do probably won't hurt you for too much.

maniakmastah
2009-04-23, 11:11 PM
Ya, I've seen that wording too. By the literal interpretation, Whirling Frenzy would NOT stack with FB's Frenzy. However, I've had every DM I've tried to use the combo under, give me the okay.

If you had to push it to get Dungeon Crasher & Lion Totem, then I'd say just stick with the normal Rage. The normal rage is still just about as good. You won't be getting as may attacks per round but with the damage you'll be pumping out, you shouldn't really need 1 more attack. Also you can still utilize things like Haste and the Snap Kick feat (extra attack per round, all at -2, prereq is only BAB 12 I think).


Not to jack your topic but I have a question. Would the knockback feat work with Dungeoncrasher? Knockback says you get a free bullrush so if you literally hammered someone into a wall you'd get the bonus damage from Dungeoncrasher, right?

Not sure, but i can't see why it shouldn't work, since you need to make a bull rush anyway to smash someone into a wall for the damage. I'd see it as putting your weight so much into the blow that your hit smashes them into the wall with enough force that the momentum of the afterhit crushes as much as the actual hit. It would be a DM call though, but it would be nice if you could.

Obahai
2009-04-24, 01:32 PM
if you are limited on funding,

you'll want to take the exotic wpn prof feat for the goliath hammer (RoS)
and improved sunder with that

it gives a +8 to sunder+5 from juggernaut PrC + str

that already a +13

Lycanthromancer
2009-04-24, 02:18 PM
I'm seriously surprised nobody has mentioned ToB or psychic warrior yet.

Oh well; you seem to be doing pretty well on your own.

At least MoI made it in. :smalltongue:

herrhauptmann
2009-04-24, 04:10 PM
MoI?

Personally I didn't suggest psychic warrior and ToB because I don't know their powers well enough to suggest good selections. Well aside from PsyWar's Expansion, and a few random ToB powers, most of which I had selected for a rogue type character.