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HailDiscordia
2009-04-21, 05:12 PM
I was wondering what the boards here think are some well designed prestige classes for 3.5. I guess I should define what I mean by that. Classes that makes sense both thematically and mechanically, and are actually interesting. Also, if something can be easily abused or cheesed out I would not say it is well designed. The same goes for classes that are really only best for a one level dip or so. A well designed class has reasons to stick with it for the duration. Does it actually have a place in the world, or does it exist solely to introduce some sort of new ability? Can it be used in most worlds or does it rely on some very specific environments to be effective?

I offer up the Dread Pirate as a well made class. The prerequisites all make sense and there are multiple, usable builds (Rogues, Swashbucklers, and Bards) that can go with it. It also fills a natural void in the world of gaming by being a class for the sea faring captain type. Even the text in the description is well written, which does not seem to be the norm for many books.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-21, 05:18 PM
Chameleon is fun, for the do-anything type. Combat Trapsmith makes a mechanic not only usable, but possible. Malconvoker is one of the few caster PrCs that justifies losing a CL without being overpowered.

For power level specifically? This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107618) is pretty nice.

Starbuck_II
2009-04-21, 05:38 PM
I'd go with Loremaster..

Riffington
2009-04-21, 05:58 PM
Basically, a class that has about the same power level as the base classes, but is more focused - so that the answer to "should I stay X or go Y" should be "do you like what Y does?" rather than a clear yes or no. The requirements should be things that a character who'd want to go into it would want to take anyway.
Alienist.
Master Thrower.
Dread Pirate.

What I definitely don't like are classes where "it's powerful, and to make up for being more powerful than a base class, we just add some crappy feats as requirements".

Eldariel
2009-04-21, 06:00 PM
Well, I'd call Occult Slayer "well-designed" if it weren't for the fact that casters are so ridiculously versatile that they still end up with an insufficient package for the job. But the requirements & abilities make sense.

Other than that, most Tome of Battle PrCs. In fact, all of them. They're really specific about their fluff and requirements, but they also happen to play out that fluff perfectly. So they're really limited in their scope of use (or rather, require you to make extensive use of the "Adaptation"-section), but for what they are designed, they're awesome.

Illithid Slayer is pretty damn sweet. A part of this is of course the fact that it's the only Psionic Gish PrC, but it makes a ton of sense all over the place, is solid for all 10 levels, gets thematic abilities and has rational prerequisites.

I'm also going to say Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Yes, it's in the higher end of the powercurve, but it's...well, it's great for 7 levels and you do feel like an Initiate. Like, when playing an Initiate, that's the part of your class that will be constantly visible as you raise different Veils around yourself to block whatever attacks are incoming, and eventually learn to offensively launch those energies in the awe-inspiring Kaleidoscopic Doom.

Also, Archmage - it has a really crappy ability in Arcane Fire, but as you choose your abilities, you need not think that and the whole rest of the class is quality. It really epitomizes the "master of magic"-stuff; you pick few areas of expertise and learn some inreplicable* tricks.

Then I'd say Bear Warrior, although I'm probably biased. Getting so angry that you get to rip heads off as a friggin' Bear is just all kinds of awesome, and it happens to flow automatically into any Barbarian-build interested in embracing their primal side.

*In Core. That said, it luckily holds up in larger scrutiny too as he doesn't pay for those abilities like others with feats and level increases; he pays for them by memorizing that method of applying magic instead of an actual spell.


That's that off the top of my head. Tons of others exist, but my mind is empty.

Chronos
2009-04-21, 06:27 PM
Basically, a class that has about the same power level as the base classes, but is more focused - so that the answer to "should I stay X or go Y" should be "do you like what Y does?" rather than a clear yes or no. The requirements should be things that a character who'd want to go into it would want to take anyway.
Alienist.
...That's the one I was going to mention. All too many spellcasting PrCs fall into the trap of giving full spellcasting progression plus other benefits in exchange for basically nothing. If you give full spellcasting progression to a wizard or especially a sorcerer, then you're basically progressing everything that a wizard or sorcerer gets, and so any features beyond that are something for nothing. On the other hand, spellcasting is so powerful, and synergizes so little with other character options, that it's hard to give a class enough benefits to make up for lost caster levels. Alienist gets around this by giving you full spellcasting progression, but the benefits it grants are all balanced by drawbacks to your spells, without changing access to the spells themselves. Power-wise, it ends up almost identical to a straight wizard, but a wizard who works a bit... Differently.

HailDiscordia
2009-04-21, 06:32 PM
I agree totally with the Alienist. Actually one of the players in our game now is an Alienist and, aside from being very strange, it's a great class. The requirements mesh well with the class, it makes sense that someone into the planes and summonings would seek contact with some bizarre sort of outsiders. I like that is has some drawbacks along the way, but it makes up for it with some good powers.

Salvonus
2009-04-21, 07:02 PM
I'd say that a lot of the PrCs from Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/psi) are fairly well-designed, in my opinion. They have attractive class features, but usually lose a couple levels of manifesting progression. Furthermore, the progression is interrupted at the first level of the PrC, so dipping is a silly thing to attempt.

My favourites from Mind's Eye would be:
The Constructor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b)
The Crystal Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625d)
The Sangehirn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c)
The Meditant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827c)

Another class that is (arguably) quite well-designed is the Malconvoker from Complete Scoundrel. You lose a caster level, and gain some excellent benefits in return if you're focused on summoning. I'd say it also has some pretty cool flavour to it.

Rhiannon87
2009-04-21, 07:05 PM
I also agree that the Alienist is good. We have a deranged little wizard/summoner in our group, and she's lots of fun. (She is planning on becoming a lich at some point in the future, as she has decided she doesn't want to die and get dragged off to the Far Realms.)

Invisible Blade is another good one, as is Thief-Acrobat, depending on how you want to focus your rogue-type. I also like the Pyrokinetist. It's fun, you get some cool and useful abilities, and as long as you keep backup weapons for the times when your DM makes you fight demons, devils, or red dragons, you're all set.

Roderick_BR
2009-04-21, 07:49 PM
Basically, a class that has about the same power level as the base classes, but is more focused - so that the answer to "should I stay X or go Y" should be "do you like what Y does?" rather than a clear yes or no. The requirements should be things that a character who'd want to go into it would want to take anyway.
Alienist.
Master Thrower.
Dread Pirate.

What I definitely don't like are classes where "it's powerful, and to make up for being more powerful than a base class, we just add some crappy feats as requirements".
Or PrCs that are "we give the exact same thing the base class gives, PLUS a lot of cool stuff." Like most wizard PrCs. I actually had a discussion with a guy once about some PrCs that are so good that "you need to be an idiot not to take it".

Myrmex
2009-04-21, 08:35 PM
Chameleon is fun, for the do-anything type. Combat Trapsmith makes a mechanic not only usable, but possible. Malconvoker is one of the few caster PrCs that justifies losing a CL without being overpowered.

If a caster PrC is ever worth taking while losing caster levels, it is pretty much always going to be a bad PrC, since there's very little cheese competitive with casting.

I'd say IotSFV is a horrible designed PrC, and Archmage is one of the worse ones.

All PrC based on leadership are also bad.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-21, 08:50 PM
If a caster PrC is ever worth taking while losing caster levels, it is pretty much always going to be a bad PrC, since there's very little cheese competitive with casting.At 1st level, you get to double the duration of [Evil] Summoning spells with a Bluff check. At 4th, you get an additional +4 Str and Con for evil summons. At 5th, [Evil] Summons grab an aditional monster. It's only worth it for Summoners, but it makes them just good enough to justify the 1-level delay. The last 4 levels are decent, but the first 5 are what justify the lost CL.

Bluebeard
2009-04-21, 09:27 PM
I'd be happier with Malconvoker if it were the only way to get Planar Binding.
I like how it's balanced, but its niche exists even without the class itself.

I've always liked the Iron Mind class in Races of Stone. It's about what a gish class should be to me -- the Cleric's framework, thematic class abilities and 8/10 manifesting. It isn't a no-brainer, but it does its job.

Also, Ordained Champion. Its progression doesn't feel especially elegant, but it competently blends melee with spellcasting without being a clear choice for Clerics. Contrast with the Radiant Servant.

Also, every non-Warlock PrC in Complete Mage:

Abjurant Champion manages to give Fighter/Wizards interesting abilities at nearly every level as well as full progressing and integrating the base classes involved.
It's almost a free entry class for high-level spellcasters and it gives them the same benefits as it does multiclassers, but it doesn't give full casters anything that they don't already have.
Maybe poorly balanced v. the Duelist, but against the Cleric? Golden.

Unseen Seer integrates Rogue abilities with Spellcasting. Its benefits aren't especially useful to the best casters and are hard to obtain without losing spellcasting levels. But to Wizards who've already gimped themselves, it's a much more elegant entry to the concept than the 8 levels of Rogue/Wizard multiclassing required for non-evil core Arcane Tricksters.
Powerful compared to the Daggerspell Mage, but fits in well with a party of Base Caster 20s.

The five-level progressions add useful and unique abilities with distinct flavors and distinct tradeoffs in the form of a caster level. My one complaint is Nightmare Spinner's DCs. I'd rather see "1/2 HD" or "1/2 CL" replace "class level" in their formulas.

And Master Specialist. It isn't a huge power jump from a Wizard with 3 feats more, but it does well to distinguish the abilities of the different specializations. A Conjurer 3/Master Conjurer 7 and an Illusionist 3/Master Illusionist 7 aren't much more powerful, but they feel more distinct than they would without the PrC (unless they're using the UA variants, but those are usually a step down).

Zaq
2009-04-21, 10:18 PM
I'm very fond of the Dread Witch, from Heroes of Horror. Yes, you lose a CL (horrors!), but it offers a unique ability in exchange, namely, the ability to make fear tactics viable at high levels when damn near everything has fear immunity. The other benefits it offers (in particular, the free +fear effect so many times per day, the hilariously awesome bonus to Intimidate, the boosting of fear save DCs, and the nifty fear touch capstone) are worthwhile, without being ZOMGHAX, but what really matters is that when the chips are down, yes, you CAN make that paladin (or vampire, or whatever) shriek like a little girl and run away screaming. The other abilities, like Absorb Fear and Delay Fear, aren't that useful, but they're really not the point. I don't know why people tend to focus on them so much... they're flashy, but they're not actually the meat of the class. It's analogous to dismissing the Druid because Resist Nature's Lure is underwhelming.

Chronos
2009-04-21, 11:12 PM
I'd say that a lot of the PrCs from Mind's Eye are fairly well-designed, in my opinion.Unfortunately, they're also mostly 3.0, and psionics has changed enough from 3.0 to 3.5 that it's nontrivial to convert them. I don't know enough about 3.0 psionics to really judge how well-designed they are, though.

And almost nothing in Complete Mage is well-designed, from a balance perspective. Abjurant Champion and Master Specialist, in particular, are exemplars of the "something for nothing" problem common to caster prestige classes. Master Specialist doesn't even carry the opportunity cost of missing out on some other PrC, since it's enterable so early.

MeklorIlavator
2009-04-21, 11:21 PM
To be fair, Abjurant Champion doesn't really give much to straight casters, and is awkward to get in. On the other hand, Gishes are like combo classes in that they're already giving up something: they lose progression, and are therefore behind other classes, thus they need something to give them a boost. If it help, think of it as a Theruge class.

That actually brings up the the theruge classes from Complete Mage. I think that the Eldrich Disciple is pretty balances: You do have to give at least 2 levels of Cleric to get in, and while it gives some features, they're either essentially flavor(Timeless body), or simply nice perks(the various turn undead features).

SurlySeraph
2009-04-21, 11:23 PM
Abjurant Champion manages to give Fighter/Wizards interesting abilities at nearly every level as well as full progressing and integrating the base classes involved.
It's almost a free entry class for high-level spellcasters and it gives them the same benefits as it does multiclassers, but it doesn't give full casters anything that they don't already have.

Except, ya know, full BAB and d10 HD and nice bonuses to AC and swift action casting of some defensive spells.

Random NPC
2009-04-22, 12:26 AM
Other than that, most Tome of Battle PrCs. In fact, all of them. They're really specific about their fluff and requirements, but they also happen to play out that fluff perfectly. So they're really limited in their scope of use (or rather, require you to make extensive use of the "Adaptation"-section), but for what they are designed, they're awesome.


Can't stress this enough... Tome of Battle PrCs are awesome. And I would add the Master Specialist to the list. A Master Specialist that goes to Archmage after finishing. A Specialist who started studying a specialization and went on to become an Archmage. Awesome!

Starscream
2009-04-22, 01:14 AM
I think Archmage is pretty good. Sure it gives full casting, but the fact that it costs spell slots means that all the goodies aren't entirely "free".

Loremaster is nice. As is Alienist. And Dread Pirate.

Master of Masks is awesome. Love the flavor of that class.

Kensai is pretty sweet.

Seeker of the Song is the one PrC that I've ever been willing to give up ten caster levels for. Others will disagree, but I like it much better than Sublime Chord.

Bluebeard
2009-04-22, 01:26 AM
Except, ya know, full BAB and d10 HD and nice bonuses to AC and swift action casting of some defensive spells.

Because a 13th level Wizard can't cast Swift 3rd level abjurations already? And 15 Hit points matters at level 15?
And attack bonuses aren't high enough by level 15 to ignore the extra 5 points?

I'd rather give my wizards two feats that actually improve what they do.

[edit:]

And almost nothing in Complete Mage is well-designed, from a balance perspective. Abjurant Champion and Master Specialist, in particular, are exemplars of the "something for nothing" problem common to caster prestige classes. Master Specialist doesn't even carry the opportunity cost of missing out on some other PrC, since it's enterable so early.
Like Meklor said, the benefits -- while still relevant -- are apt compensation for a character that's fallen into a Mystic Theurge-like hole.
I wouldn't say Master Specialist's Esoterica is drastically better than three feats. And the rest of it is mostly rubbish on its own.