Agility: River Tam vs. Buffy Summers

[Darkxarth]

Ok, the primary question is this:

In a low-number system, where the agility of a standard human is 2, would Buffy and River both have 3? Would River have 4 and Buffy 3? Would Buffy have 4 and River 3?

My personal opinion is that River would have an Agility of 4 while Buffy would have a 3. While they are both agile, the combat scene at the beginning of Serenity and the fight scene against the Reavers lead me to believe that she is ridiculously agile. Buffy, on the other hand, is significantly stronger than River, but while she is significantly more agile than the average human, she is not on par with River.

Secondly, less important but more fun to think about, who would win in an unarmed fight, Buffy or River?

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Cúchulainn]

Buffy and River - 4.

Buffy wins in a fight; superior resistance to wounds, experience, strength.

[golentan]

No. Because River uses precognition and telepathy to own Buffy unless Buffy has something to prevent these advantages. Superior experience is all about predicting where your opponent will be and how to use it to your advantage. If you know this ahead of time and can use it to break a few rules of standard defense/offense (esp. in ways that experience will have taught the other can't be done and so are not worth paying attention to), you don't need the experience. In a straight physical fight with equal access to equipment, however, you are right.

I'd put them both at 4 for agility. But yes, Buffy is stronger.

[Graymayre]

I'd put River at 4 and Buffy at 3 as well

Of course River Tam wins. While Buffy is good at her job, River is a fighting savant. she was conditioned to be a machine of ass kicking death.

Not to mention her practically telepathic development of precognition and on-the-fly in fight physics calculations.

I'll admit, I've never really watched or read Buffy, but I really can't see her handling someone who can predict every move she makes.

[chiasaur11]

I'd put River at 4 and Buffy at 3 as well

Of course River Tam wins. While Buffy is good at her job, River is a fighting savant. she was conditioned to be a machine of ass kicking death.

Not to mention her practically telepathic development of precognition and on-the-fly in fight physics calculations.

I'll admit, I've never really watched or read Buffy, but I really can't see her handling someone who can predict every move she makes.

Well, not to doubt a River victory or anything, but I figure you're underestimating the Slayer a tad. I mean, we are talking a mystically empowered killing machine with limited precog, fast healing, mildly impressive levels of super strength...

The Slayer has been the #1 anti monster weapon for all of human history, and Buffy is top tier even by those standards. This is not going to be an easy fight even for a top of the line psychic super soldier.

[Graymayre]

Well, not to doubt a River victory or anything, but I figure you're underestimating the Slayer a tad. I mean, we are talking a mystically empowered killing machine with limited precog, fast healing, mildly impressive levels of super strength...

The Slayer has been the #1 anti monster weapon for all of human history, and Buffy is top tier even by those standards. This is not going to be an easy fight even for a top of the line psychic super soldier.

That certainly puts things to light for me. To be honest, I just thought she was a normal person with training...

[Mewtarthio]

River wouldn't have been conditioned to take down a single superpowered opponent: She can carve through hordes of mooks easily enough, but I don't think she's optimized for Slayer-killing. And optimized is what you have to be to kill a Slayer (well, that or really, really lucky).

Note that the above assumes an unarmed duel where both opponents are aware of each other. If you give River a gun, she could almost certainly take Buffy out.

[warty goblin]

[QUOTE=Darkxarth;6025608]Ok, the primary question is this:

In a low-number system, where the agility of a standard human is 2, would Buffy and River both have 3? Would River have 4 and Buffy 3? Would Buffy have 4 and River 3?

My personal opinion is that River would have an Agility of 4 while Buffy would have a 3. QUOTE]
Your scale is usefulness challenged, because you don't indicate what a difference in agility between two individuals means. If person A is a 2 on your system, and B is a 5, does that mean B is two and a half times more agile (linear), or eight times more agile (logarithmic base 2), or sixty times more agile (factorial)?

[Mikeavelli]

River, definitely.

The only time River has a setback is when she's holed up inside her own head. Once she goes into "Berserk river" mode, nothing stands a chance against her. At all. At no point during any of her fight scenes does she have so much as a mild setback.

Buffy, on the other hand, has limits. She wins by the power of plot. When the plot isn't on her side, such as in this fight, she can, and will lose.

[Thrawn183]

I gotta say that while I think River is more agile than Buffy, Buffy wins pretty easily. River is extremely skilled at fighting, but she's still human. For instance, even if she can land blows with ease (and this is, in my opinion, a big assumption) I doubt those blows would have much effect because Buffy is nowhere near human.

We're talking about someone that can take a sledge hammer to the head multiple times in a fight and win.

[Cúchulainn]

http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Slayer

Required reading for anyone posting in this thread, because I'm seeing some serious ignorance going on.

[Sholos]

Let's have us an analysis.

Enemies
River fights Reavers. Strong, but still human, and not exactly up on tactics.
Buffy fights vampires and other assorted supernatural threats.

Advantage: Buffy

Strength
River is a 90 lb. girl. I don't care how much she works out, there's only so much power she can generate with her small mass.
Buffy may be small, but she's also magically enhanced. For example, she has at least a ten-foot standing vertical jump. She also routinely out-muscles super-strong beings.

Advantage: Buffy

Experience
River's been in what, two fights? Maybe some training at the Academy?
Buffy has been fighting all kinds of nasty stuff for years.

Advantage: Buffy

Agility
River always did love to dance.
Buffy is more of a "smash it till it dies" fighter.

Advantage: River

Conclusion
If we're talking an unarmed fight, I have to give this to Buffy. There's really nothing River can do to her that she can't just take and dish back out. Also, something else I forgot to mention is that Buffy is fast. Sure, limited precognition helps in a fight, but when you don't have time to react to what the other person is doing, it's usefulness becomes questionable.

Now, if we're talking about a fight with weapons, it depends on what we give each person. If we have a standard loadout, then River doesn't get anything (since she's a "hey look, a weapon" type person) and Buffy gets a stake, I guess (which, conveniently, will kill a person if thrust through the heart just as well as it does vampires).

[Dervag]

I'd bet on Buffy. I think River would stand a credible chance, but for most of the same reasons given here, I don't think it's a good chance.

Now, if the Academy had been able to hang onto River until they were done brainwashing her into a psychic assassin/whatever, then she might have been able to take down Buffy.

[averagejoe]

I'd have to throw in for Buffy as well, though it pains me to admit it. River still has the physical limitations of a normal human, where Buffy has supernatural strength and endurance. River probably is more agile, and a much better shot, but not enough to matter in close combat situations, and one good, or even average, shot by Buffy pretty much disables her.

That said, I'm pretty sure Summer Glau could take on Sarah Michelle Gellar. :smalltongue:

[Darkxarth]

Your scale is usefulness challenged, because you don't indicate what a difference in agility between two individuals means. If person A is a 2 on your system, and B is a 5, does that mean B is two and a half times more agile (linear), or eight times more agile (logarithmic base 2), or sixty times more agile (factorial)?
Well, I'm not quite sure. But let me give you examples on two other stats.

The Tick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tick) would have a 4 Strength while Professor Moriarty and Dr. Doom would both have 4 Mental. 4 is pretty much the highest number. Which means that there can be a wide range of power levels within a single number.

[Dragonus45]

Just a thought for some people on this thread who may or may not have any martial arts experience, mass and body size mean little to someone with training and experience. A person who makes proper use of body mechanics, good technique, and grounding for a strike can hit hella hard no matter how small they are. And with the amount of experience that River was given at the academy it should be assumed that she knows how to hit. Add in knowing where to hit on the body for maximum disability power and you have a serious fighter. I still give it to Buffy, mind reading is only worth how fast you can act on it, but it would be a hard fight.

[Sholos]

Just a thought for some people on this thread who may or may not have any martial arts experience, mass and body size mean little to someone with training and experience. A person who makes proper use of body mechanics, good technique, and grounding for a strike can hit hella hard no matter how small they are. And with the amount of experience that River was given at the academy it should be assumed that she knows how to hit. Add in knowing where to hit on the body for maximum disability power and you have a serious fighter. I still give it to Buffy, mind reading is only worth how fast you can act on it, but it would be a hard fight.

Anyone with martial arts experience also knows that size does matter. The 6'8", 250 lb. guy with even a moderate amount of experience (whether through being on the streets or formal training) is probably going to be a tough opponent no matter what (unless you're just as big and a better fighter). He's got a huge reach, and devastating hits no matter where he hits you. Likewise, the 5'2" 80 lb. girl might not be a cakewalk, but you won't have to worry nearly as much about blocking her attacks (or even taking a few non-disabling ones).

[Dervag]

First, Sholos has a point. Except in cases where the experience factor is a total mismatch, physical size, mass, and strength are going to matter a lot. And in this fight, the mismatch isn't that big. River may have more formal training, but Buffy has vastly more experience at hand to hand combat against (superhuman) enemies who are trying to kill her.


Well, I'm not quite sure. But let me give you examples on two other stats.

The Tick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tick) would have a 4 Strength while Professor Moriarty and Dr. Doom would both have 4 Mental. 4 is pretty much the highest number. Which means that there can be a wide range of power levels within a single number.That makes the system less useful, not more.

"Yorgi the Strongman has Strength 3 and Agility 2; Fast Eddie has Strength 2 and Agility 3. Who wins?"

First of all, if you can't rate whether Yorgi is a low 3 or a high 3 in strength, you're not going to be able to compare him to Eddie. If Eddie is a high 3 and Yorgi is a low 3, the fight looks different from the way it looks if we go the other way around.

Second of all, at what point does mastering one ability make another one meaningless? These things aren't linear, and they aren't perfectly balanced. I could be strong enough to bench press railroad cars and it wouldn't do me any good in a fight against a guy who can dodge in fractions of a millisecond and run at Mach Fifteen. The strength of a thousand men is useless against the speed of a thousand men.

But the strength of two men might very well give me an advantage against the speed of two men. Being able to land one mildly-superhuman hit could easily be worth taking one or two merely-human hits in the process. So it isn't as simple as "Strength X beats Agility X" or vice versa.

[Darkxarth]

That makes the system less useful, not more.

"Yorgi the Strongman has Strength 3 and Agility 2; Fast Eddie has Strength 2 and Agility 3. Who wins?"
Except that the "who would win in a battle" part is simply an afterthought question. The real question is: what would the Agility of both characters be?

Average Human = 2 Strength
The Tick = 4 Strength
Average Human = 2 Mental
Dr. Doom = 4 Mental
Average Human = 2 Agility
Buffy = ?
River = ?

Though, of course, most of you insight is correct. The combat system is being handled separately from the Statistics scores, although they might to have an effect on combat bonuses.

[chiasaur11]

Except that the "who would win in a battle" part is simply an afterthought question. The real question is: what would the Agility of both characters be.

Average Human = 2 Strength
The Tick = 4 Strength
Average Human = 2 Mental
Dr. Doom = 4 Mental
Average Human = 2 Agility
Buffy = ?
River = ?

Though, of course, most of you insight is correct. The combat system is being handled separately from the Statistics scores, although they might to have an effect on combat bonuses.

Well, on a four point scale, with two as normal:

No freaking clue. I mean, Moriarty and Doom are both four, for example. Now, Moriarty was a genius, the Napoleon of crime, but he didn't build a time machine. We need the cut off points for three if we're to make an accurate accounting.

[DwaggieBard]

I'm sorry I can't find it right now, but I'll swear I've read an article about Joss Whedon being asked this question. His response was something along the lines of "Well, Buffy is definitely stronger, but River's whole thing is being a killing machine, so..."

He left it hanging, but with a side towards River.

And I agree, River is designed to be a the ultimate weapon, she would beat Buffy.


Even if Buffy would win in a fight (unlikely), River is still way more agile.

[Dervag]

This is a rare case where I am inclined to disagree with the shows' creator, on the grounds that he is misrepresenting the evidence he gave us to make the call.

Superhuman physique matches superhuman grace, but several years' experience beats several years' training.

[Zocelot]

I think that based on the current evidence, Buffy would win, due to being much stronger and tougher. However, we haven't seen river beyond beating up an entire bar, shooting three people and killing a ****load of reavers. If Firefly wasn't cancelled, or if there is ever another movie (fingers crossed) then perhaps the evidence would shift in River's favour.

[Thufir]

Superhuman physique matches superhuman grace, but several years' experience beats several years' training.

Debatable in this case. In theory, training can equip you with all the knowledge and technique you need - the problem is you don't have enough time to figure out the exact right way to counter each attack before it hits you, so you need to develop instincts for it.
River, on the other hand, can think that fast, and find pretty much the optimal solution with probably a little time to spare. Whereas Buffy has been known to make mistakes which put her at a temporary disadvantage against just ordinary vampires.
Also, the precise extent of River's psychic abilities was never determined. If she's powerful enough, it may be that she essentially has access to all of Buffy's experience by reading her mind.

So, I would say River is the better fighter. However, if she has access to nothing at all she could possibly use as a weapon, and Buffy is cautious, she'll find it difficult to do significant damage due to Buffy's superhuman endurance, and she'll get tired first, at which point the advantage shifts to Buffy.
So if Buffy knows what she's dealing with and adopts an appropriate fighting style, and keeps it up, and the fight takes place in an entirely weaponless environment, she can win by attrition.
Otherwise, River.

[Darkxarth]

Well, on a four point scale, with two as normal:

No freaking clue. I mean, Moriarty and Doom are both four, for example. Now, Moriarty was a genius, the Napoleon of crime, but he didn't build a time machine. We need the cut off points for three if we're to make an accurate accounting.

More Examples:
James Bond = 2 Mental
Hermione Granger = 3 Mental
Professor Moriarty = 4 Mental
John McClane = 2 Strength
Buffy = 3 Strength
Rancor Beast = 4 Strength

Unfortunately, I am basing Agility Statistics mostly off of River/Buffy, so I can't give you any good examples of that.

[Revlid]

More Examples:
James Bond = 2 Mental
Hermione Granger = 3 Mental
Professor Moriarty = 4 Mental
John McClane = 2 Strength
Buffy = 3 Strength
Rancor Beast = 4 Strength

Unfortunately, I am basing Agility Statistics mostly off of River/Buffy, so I can't give you any good examples of that.

See, this why 5 Point Scales (see: most White Wolf stuff) work so much better.

[chiasaur11]

See, this why 5 Point Scales (see: most White Wolf stuff) work so much better.

Agreed. I mean, I prefer 10 at minimum, but five is at least enough to get some idea.

Four is just too small.

[Dervag]

But where are the boundaries? Imagine that I am smarter than James Bond. Does that make me a 2 or a 3 with respect to intelligence?
______

And that's why I agree with the people who are pushing for five-point or (better yet) ten-point scales. With scales like that, the mere fact that you put a character at a specific point on the scale helps to define it. If I say "River from Firefly has Agility 7 on a scale of 1 to 10, while Bob Randomguy has an agility of 3," that tells me a fair amount about the scale. Maybe unusually graceful, athletic 'normals' would be a 4 or a 5, while levels above 5 indicate varying degrees of superhuman ability.

But if I say "River has Agility 3 and Bob Randomguy has a 2" (because I compressed 3-5 into "2" and 6-8 into "3"), then there isn't nearly as much information contained in the statement.

[Galileo]

I don't know enough about Buffy to comment on who would win, but I do know one thing. It would be AWESOME to watch. Assuming one of them didn't use me as a projectile.

[Cúchulainn]

I don't know enough about Buffy to comment on who would win, but I do know one thing. It would be AWESOME to watch. Assuming one of them didn't use me as a projectile.

You'd be 2 projectiles, they'd break you in half!

[Geddoe]

I'm sorry I can't find it right now, but I'll swear I've read an article about Joss Whedon being asked this question. His response was something along the lines of "Well, Buffy is definitely stronger, but River's whole thing is being a killing machine, so..."

He left it hanging, but with a side towards River.

And I agree, River is designed to be a the ultimate weapon, she would beat Buffy.


Even if Buffy would win in a fight (unlikely), River is still way more agile.
I guess since Joss is the creator, he can define it however he likes, but the fact is that based on what we know about Buffy and River, River should get curbstomped. Buffy has huge physical stat advantages, because her physical stats are all superhuman(she does fight a powerful, skilled vampire in hand to hand combat with both combatants equiped with swords and comes out relatively unscratched), while River is trained human in agility(with no great strength or toughness to speak of). This is in addition to lots more experience and similar levels of combat training(Giles isn't just there to bust out the monster manual when an unidentified creature shows up, and they were doing more than just train combat at the "Special School" of River's).

I'd give Buffy the nod in agility as well, she just doesn't use it as much because she also has super constitution and strength and is able to get by on them and her training, sorta like how Superman doesn't always need to bust out super speed. The entire point of Slayers is to give them the attributes they need to hang with(or better really) things that can kill humans with little more than a thought.

Not sure if I would give different scores in agility though, since the system seems to have huge variation between numbers.

[Darkxarth]

See, this why 5 Point Scales (see: most White Wolf stuff) work so much better.


Agreed. I mean, I prefer 10 at minimum, but five is at least enough to get some idea.

Four is just too small.


But where are the boundaries? Imagine that I am smarter than James Bond. Does that make me a 2 or a 3 with respect to intelligence?
______

And that's why I agree with the people who are pushing for five-point or (better yet) ten-point scales. With scales like that, the mere fact that you put a character at a specific point on the scale helps to define it. If I say "River from Firefly has Agility 7 on a scale of 1 to 10, while Bob Randomguy has an agility of 3," that tells me a fair amount about the scale. Maybe unusually graceful, athletic 'normals' would be a 4 or a 5, while levels above 5 indicate varying degrees of superhuman ability.

But if I say "River has Agility 3 and Bob Randomguy has a 2" (because I compressed 3-5 into "2" and 6-8 into "3"), then there isn't nearly as much information contained in the statement.

Okay, well if I change it to a 5-point scale, with non-super humans still at 2, would it be reasonable to have Buffy at 3 Agility and River at 4 Agility?

A 10-point scale, while admittedly more useful in some instances, would not work for what I want to do.

Thanks to all those who have already replied.

[Haven]

If it came down to River vs. Buffy, I don't think it would necessarily have to be a hand-to-hand confrontation. River could definitely put up a fight there, to be sure, but I imagine the encounter going down less like River vs. Reavers and more like River vs. Jubal Early: she hides somewhere and uses her mind-reading to mess with her head. If season 2 showed us nothing else, though, it's that mind games won't stop Buffy...but has she ever faced an opponent that plays them quite like River!?

Alternatively, she clings to the ceiling, and while Buffy's trying to find her, does a 1080 degree spin kick. This is a recipe for breaking metal spears in half, so Buffy would be screwed.

[paddyfool]

On the scale of agility you're talking, they'd both be a 4, since that seems to cover "all superhuman", with 1-3 covering the "human" range.

For the fight comparison: let's put this in D20 terms (OK, I can already imagine the groans, but bear with me here). Each of these could be viewed as being subject to a template that gives them various bonuses. And let's say we're comparing latest archetypes - so end of Series 7 Buffy vs end of Serenity River.

Buffy would be somewhere in the 20s on all three physical stats - Str, Con, and Dex. River would be in the 20s on Dex, but more like 14-16 on Str and Con. On the mental stats, River would have a massively better Int (again, in the 20s), but it doesn't matter so much for these purposes. On other abilities, the extent and speed of River's psychic powers and precog is uncertain, although it does seem they aren't that reliable, given the psyche they have to be filtered through. Minor spoiler: And River did, in effect, "lose" the fight in the bar when Simon said the safe word. Meanwhile, Buffy would have more levels in addition to her "slayer" template bonuses. Outcome of a fight: Big advantage Buffy, imho. Unless, perhaps, River really can "kill people with her brain" :smallwink:

[Dervag]

Buffy would be somewhere in the 20s on all three physical stats - Str, Con, and Dex. River would be in the 20s on Dex, but more like 14-16 on Str and Con.Point of order: I suspect that River's strength is not in the above-average range. She just doesn't have the body mass or muscle development to be all that strong unless she's been surgically enhanced, and we don't have any evidence that they did that kind of surgery on her.

[Sholos]

Also, Buffy might be in the 20s for physical stats, but it's the high 20s. Vampires are fast and she keeps up with them. She also fairly easily dents/breaks down various doors (though the show isn't always consistent with what kind she can do it to).

[Serenity]

Point of order: I suspect that River's strength is not in the above-average range. She just doesn't have the body mass or muscle development to be all that strong unless she's been surgically enhanced, and we don't have any evidence that they did that kind of surgery on her.

"Let's start with the part where Jayne got beaten up by a 90 pound girl. I don't think that's ever getting old." --Wash

We certainly don't have any evidence that River is anywhere near Buffy's level of strength, despite the common fan-fiction device of making River a Slayer. But River takes on two mobs in the movie, putting down her opponents with rapid ease, and coming out almost totally unscathed. The second time, she dual-wields an axe and sword, a feat that requires not insignificant strength in addition to superior coordination. Further, her opponents in that battle are heavily armed marauders, who, in D&D terms, all have the Diehard feat. Pain doesn't faze them in the least; they literally keep coming until they can't do so anymore. All in all, I don't think it would be unfair to assess her a 14 strength on the D&D scale. However, 20 might well be a conservative estimate for Buffy, so in terms of raw strength, advantage is certainly Buffy's.

What certainly can be said about River is that she is 'a creature of extraordinary grace' with an almost preternatural knowledge of where to direct her strikes for maximum damage. She can and has put down foes nearly twice her size in a single blow. As Inara says, "It takes less than a pound of pressure to cut the skin." Applied in the right place, a quick blow can prove more devestating than a haymaker aimed at a less vulnerable spot. Of course, Slayers display an equal instinctive affinity for all forms of combat, so no clear advantage is established there.

The extent of River's psychic powers is still unknown, though whatever else, she certainly seems to have powerful telepathic ability which is likely incorporated, perhaps unconsciously into her graceful fighting style. Theoretically, she should be able to anticipate many of Buffy's attacks. On the other hand, that psychic power has proved largely uncontrolled in the past. It's a wild card, potentially River's greatest asset, but also crippling given the psychosis it brings.

In the final assessment: whatever happens, it should be AWESOME.

[golentan]

Im sorry, but has everyone forgotten that river got 3 headshots in under two seconds with a pistol (hardly the most accurate weapon) WITH HER EYES CLOSED!!!

Episode: War stories. 3 armed and armored soldiers with automatic weapons and cover. River hits them all when they know she's there before they can react. I'd say that's pretty strong evidence river can win.

She knows where to hit, where to dodge, and exactly where you will be when she goes to do it. We have to give her this, because it is consistent throughout the show with the exception of the first episode. She senses enemies at a distance. She doesn't really fight except when she kicks into overdrive, at which point she smashes all who dare oppose her who don't know her codeword. If we deny river this, we have to deny buffy some of her charms and enhancements. Some of which, as I recall, are responsible for her superhuman strength.

Yes. In a straight physical fight buffy takes the cake. But, there is no such thing as a straight physical fight. None whatsoever.

Also, river is smart enough to bring a gun, and we know what modern arms do to the buffyverse. I believe it was Riley who demonstrated. (To quote Jayne: Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some GRENADES, don't ya think?)

[Cúchulainn]

Yeah like the most powerful anti-demon fighter in the world has never faced anyone with psychic powers or guns. Psh.

[Sholos]

Well, if Buffy knows she's going into a fight with a (relatively) normal human, there's no reason she wouldn't bring weapons herself. And Buffy is faster.

Not to mention, the only times we've seen River be really awesome are when she's triggered (no chance of that happening here) and against the Reavers. The only time she has a gun? When one happens to be around.

So, if we go with the default weaponry of both, we'd have to give River nothing, and Buffy would have a stake.

Also, consider that there's not really a reason to think either one of them would fight to the death. They'd probably just go for knocking each other out, which, admittedly, gives a huge advantage to Buffy.

[golentan]

Again, we've seen what modern arms do to the buffyverse. Riley demonstrated quite nicely. He took out the entire coven (including a vamp that had been a serious problem for Buffy herself) with one grenade. Buffy learned a valuable lesson from this, and is later seen employing grenades herself.

And river seems to have achieved supreme confidence and control of her abilities by the end of serenity. The reason she was effective against the reavers was because she consciously (as in without being triggered) decided to fight them. Same reason she was effective vs. the soldiers.

Also, I can't recall a single time when buffy HAS fought something with combat precognition. Everything in the series just has fast reflexes and/or prophetic dreams.

[Sholos]

You know, precog only helps so much if you don't have the reflexes to keep up with the person you're fighting.

Also, we never saw River fight anyone who was actually trained in hand-to-hand combat, so we really don't have a basis for comparison. We have seen Buffy take out beings that are much faster and stronger than any human could be.

I don't understand why you're harping on modern firearms so much. There's no reason to think they'd be involved in this fight.

[JabberwockySupafly]

If we're going on a five point scale, I would actually say Buffy is a 4 to a 5, and River is a 3 to a 4... reasons explained below.


Ok, for people wanting to get an idea on how fast or strong Buffy is compared to a typical (ie not magically enhanced) human, in this case River Tam (albeit, a well-trained human), one only needs to look to one place for reference. Check out an episode of Angel called "Somnambulist".

Yes, Buffy isn't the episode, but it will give you a stellar point-of-reference for what she can keep up with. During the episode, Angel fights another Vampire nearly as old as him, and a human police officer (Kate), is watching the battle. What many people must remember is during Buffy & Angel, we usually view combat from the perspective of the protagonists, so we're seeing it at the speed they see it. In this instance, we see the fight from a normal, average, human point of view, and both vampires move almost at blurring speeds and hit each other hard enough to crack concrete foundation pillars. This is something Buffy dealt with on a daily basis. I'm sorry, no matter how quick or trained River is, she's doomed to fail.


Another point to make is in Buffy, one episode ("The I in Team", great ep, just watched it last night actually with the other half. Yes, we're Whedoholics). Buffy fights 4 fully armed Special Forces soldiers who are trained to deal with supernatual forces (The Initiative) for a training exercise. It takes them 42 minutes to track her down, and she incapacitates them in 28 seconds. She wasn't looking to hurt them permanently, and she stomped them in under a half a minute... Now, imagine if she was going for the kill, or at least, to keep them out of commission as long as possible.

This is not blind zealotry or favoritism on my part. I think both of them rock, and honestly, think they should make this fight happen. Now. I would pay outrageous ticket prices to see a two hour movie based on this exact premise. But the key thing to remember here is this: River fights all kinds of crazy humans, but that's all she fights. Humans. She's ill-equipped to deal with someone who was built with one express goal in mind: Kill things that are way beyond the ken and ability of human beings.