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Lycanthromancer
2009-04-29, 09:56 PM
Here's the power's text:


Psionic Lionís Charge
Psychometabolism
Level: Psychic warrior 2
Display: Mental
Manifesting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
Power Points: 3

You gain the powerful charging ability of a lion. When you charge, you can make a full attack in the same round.

You can manifest this power with an instant thought, quickly enough to gain the benefit of the power as you charge. Manifesting the power is a swift action You cannot manifest this power when it isnít your turn.

Augment: For every additional power point you spend, each of your attacks after a charge in the current round gains a circumstance bonus on damage equal to the number of additional points spent.

The way I (and most people I know) have always used it, you can make a full attack at the end of a charge.

However, this is not how the text reads. According to the text, you can make a full attack in the same round that you make a charge. Which means you make a full attack and then a charge. Or a charge then a separate full attack. Or a full attack in the middle of a charge, which is completed afterwards.

And so, for argument's sake, you can make a full round of ranged shots, then make a charge attack. Or start a charge, full-attack a critter on the way, then finish off with the final strike at the end of your charge. Or make a charge, then an additional full attack afterwards.

With Linked Power and a level dip in Lion Totem Barbarian, it's fully feasible to make 3 full attacks in one round as follows:

Round 1: Manifest some power Linked to psionic lion's charge.

Round 2: Psionic lion's charge manifests, granting you a full attack and a charge (which, with the barbarian's pounce ability, grants you another full attack). You then manifest psionic lion's charge again, granting you yet another full attack.

Round 3: Profit!

Also, the circumstance bonus granted by the augment scales very rapidly. Every power point grants a bonus equal to the number of power points you've already spent, so it increases in strength exponentially.

Granted, it's probably just bad wording on the power. But still.

averagejoe
2009-04-29, 10:07 PM
Mmmm, this seems to require some creative interpretation on your part. It says, "When you charge..." and "gain the benefit of the power as you charge." You need to have charged for the power to activate.

SurlySeraph
2009-04-29, 10:21 PM
When there are two ways that something can be interpreted, why choose the obviously broken interpretation?

And with regards to the power points, it's obvious that they intended you to get a circumstance bonus on damage equal to the number of power points spent, not power points per power points already spent. Again, why choose the obviously broken interpretation?

lsfreak
2009-04-29, 10:26 PM
You can't manifest the power twice, because you can only take one swift action per round.

Also, the most favorable interpretation I can come up with is that you charge, get in your single attack (or full attack, if you have pounce), and then get a full attack. By the wording, there is no way you can make a full attack and then charge.

Samb
2009-04-29, 10:49 PM
Hmm the fact is that it is worded that you do a charge and then a full attack. Its worded as such and I use it as such and have been using with linked power.

Linked power manifests the power the next turn after the first power is triggered. So it is not a swift action when it goes off, it simply happens. So on round 2 he still has a swift action left over free to do hustle or lion charge again and link it again. My dinky little rogue/psiwarrior/elocater rips the **** out of a battlefield before the other bruisers are even on the field.


OT but linking creation powers and genisis is a lot of fun.

Lycanthromancer
2009-04-29, 11:10 PM
Does it say when during the charge you have to full attack?

(Hint: that's a no. )

Also, it does say charge AND full attack in the same round. A single attack is made as part of a charge, which means that you get the charge-attack AND a full attack.

Probably just badly written, but there you go.

lsfreak
2009-04-29, 11:10 PM
Ah, okay, that makes sense then. I suppose I shouldn't assume when I don't know much about psionics.

Alleine
2009-04-29, 11:32 PM
How are you getting those two manifestings of it in the second round? Linked power makes it manifest on the round after, doesn't it?

JoshuaZ
2009-04-29, 11:37 PM
Also, the circumstance bonus granted by the augment scales very rapidly. Every power point grants a bonus equal to the number of power points you've already spent, so it increases in strength exponentially.


Um, I'm not seeing that at all. It says "For every additional power point you spend, each of your attacks after a charge in the current round gains a circumstance bonus on damage equal to the number of additional points spent." That means if I pay n points the circumstance bonus is +n.

Even if it added n to the pre-existing circumstance bonus then the augment would give a bonus which is n(n+1)/2 which is quadratic not exponential. By exponential did you mean grows fast?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-29, 11:43 PM
How are you getting those two manifestings of it in the second round? Linked power makes it manifest on the round after, doesn't it?He linked it to the power manifested in the first round.

And while I agree the OP's interpretation is RAW(why the hell didn't they just say 'it grants pounce'), I encourage everyone to go with the RAI here. People don't need more reasons to think Psionics is broken.

Lycanthromancer
2009-04-29, 11:49 PM
Um, I'm not seeing that at all. It says "For every additional power point you spend, each of your attacks after a charge in the current round gains a circumstance bonus on damage equal to the number of additional points spent." That means if I pay n points the circumstance bonus is +n.

Even if it added n to the pre-existing circumstance bonus then the augment would give a bonus which is n(n+1)/2 which is quadratic not exponential. By exponential did you mean grows fast?Every power point in the augment grants a +1 for every power point spent on the augment. So spending 4 power points on the augment gives +4 for each power point spent on the augment (ie, +16, to each attack).

Also, viewing psionic lion's charge in this light (except for the augment, of course) isn't actually broken, until and unless you start twinking it out. I mean, all it lets you do is make an additional charge on a round you do a full attack. It's an extra move and attack. Not a huge deal, generally.

Heavy op-fu can change the equation, obviously.

Alleine
2009-04-29, 11:50 PM
He linked it to the power manifested in the first round.

Wow, I totally missed that. :smallsigh:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-30, 12:00 AM
Also, viewing psionic lion's charge in this light (except for the augment, of course) isn't actually broken, until and unless you start twinking it out. I mean, all it lets you do is make an additional charge on a round you do a full attack. It's an extra move and attack. Not a huge deal, generally.It's an extra double move and attack at your full BAB. Swift Haste+the ability to move as a swift action is pretty darn nice, far better than a full manifester's second level slot should be. Tossing in things like Pounce or multiple castings just takes it from fairly OP to Contingency-level.

Saph
2009-04-30, 12:17 AM
Also, viewing psionic lion's charge in this light (except for the augment, of course) isn't actually broken, until and unless you start twinking it out. I mean, all it lets you do is make an additional charge on a round you do a full attack. It's an extra move and attack. Not a huge deal, generally.

You've got to be joking. You're saying that a level 2 ability that basically gives you two turns instead of one (a charge and a full attack, both full-round actions) isn't broken? The only equivalent ability I can think of off the top of my head is the Diamond Mind effect Time Stands Still - and that's a level 9 maneuver!

It's a badly worded power, but it's blatantly obvious what it's intended to do. All I can see this doing is discouraging DMs from allowing psionics.

- Saph

Lycanthromancer
2009-04-30, 12:48 AM
Woo hoo. It lets you hit one extra time, and allows you a bit more maneuverability. The only difference between this interpretation and the standard interpretation is that you get to choose when during your movement you make your attacks.

Useful, but not exactly overpowering.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-30, 01:01 AM
Woo hoo. It lets you hit one extra time, and allows you a bit more maneuverability. The only difference between this interpretation and the standard interpretation is that you get to choose when during your movement you make your attacks.

Useful, but not exactly overpowering.Are you intentionally ignoring the implications? It allows considerably more maneuverability, as well as an extra attack at your full BAB. Ignoring Pounce/Linked power/Contingency, you are still gaining a bonus attack, normally the effect of an overpowered 3rd level spell, as well as Hustle, a second level power. This is a combination of 2 of the better effects for their level, at the level of the lower one. With your interpretation, it would be balanced at 6th level if it didn't work with any chage-related boosts. Because it is charge-based, though, I don't know that it could be balanced. Either someone uses it+Pounce+Rhino's Rush+Charging Smite+any number of other wierd effects, at which point it is 10th level or better, or they don't, in which case it's 6th(maybe. The most valuable resource in D&D is actions, this thing gives you twice as many.

Alleine
2009-04-30, 01:30 AM
Whoa, maybe I'm just going blind but I do NOT see this thing giving you an extra charge at all, and that's what is sounds like you guys are saying. It may well be midnight here and I may be very, very tired, but I'm pretty sure it only says when you make a charge, not "you may make a charge". So really you only get the extra full attack.

Or am I completely wrong in what I'm reading you all say?

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-30, 01:59 AM
Basically everyone is complaining that it's super broken for melee to be able to move and full attack, because melee can't have nice things.

Bluebeard
2009-04-30, 02:44 AM
Basically everyone is complaining that it's super broken for melee to be able to move and full attack, because melee can't have nice things.
Yes. Yes, that is what they are saying.

Anyway, good luck getting this interpretation to fly.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-04-30, 02:51 AM
Round 1: Manifest some power Linked to psionic lion's charge.

Round 2: Psionic lion's charge manifests, granting you a full attack and a charge (which, with the barbarian's pounce ability, grants you another full attack). You then manifest psionic lion's charge again, granting you yet another full attack.

Round 3: Profit!


Your manifesting the same power twice and expect it to stack? Where did that come from?

I also disagree on being able to attack whenever you want, a charge means you can move up to twice your movement in a direct line towards your opponent and attack it, if you haven't done that yet you can't get your full-round attack either.

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-30, 03:14 AM
Yes. Yes, that is what they are saying.

Anyway, good luck getting this interpretation to fly.

I don't care about this particular interpretation, I already play in games where characters get to move and full attack on a pretty regular basis anyway.

Bluebeard
2009-04-30, 03:34 AM
I don't care about this particular interpretation, I already play in games where characters get to move and full attack on a pretty regular basis anyway.

...Neat?

:smallconfused:

For some reason I got the vibe that this thread was about this particular interpretation.
The one that gives a double move and two full round attacks per round at the cost of 3 PP.

Renegade Paladin
2009-04-30, 03:53 AM
The ability is called Lion's Charge. Lions have the Pounce ability, which is obviously what this power both refers to and confers when used. Any other reading is willful misinterpretation and you know it.

Saph
2009-04-30, 05:26 AM
Yes. Yes, that is what they are saying.

No. No, it's not what they're saying.

Psionic Lion's Charge already allows a character to move and full attack. What Lycan is saying is that it should allow a character to move and attack, then full attack. And if combined with Pounce, he thinks it should allow a character to move and full attack and full attack. And if linked, he thinks it should allow a character to move and full attack and full attack and full attack.

- Saph

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-30, 06:22 AM
For some reason I got the vibe that this thread was about this particular interpretation.
The one that gives a double move and two full round attacks per round at the cost of 3 PP.

No, just a single attack more then what Lion's Charge grants under normal situations, at the expense of +2 AB for most attacks and lack of Charge synergy.


No. No, it's not what they're saying.

Psionic Lion's Charge already allows a character to move and full attack. What Lycan is saying is that it should allow a character to move and attack, then full attack. And if combined with Pounce, he thinks it should allow a character to move and full attack and full attack. And if linked, he thinks it should allow a character to move and full attack and full attack and full attack.

Everything else is just an extension of the first. If you are investing both PP and a Barbarian Dip, you deserve something more then just one provides. If you are investing more PP and a round you could have performed two full attacks you deserve three full attacks the next round. (Assuming you deserve one full attack plus a charge in the first place.)

But yes, Lion's Charge giving one more attack then it currently does, not such a big deal in the greater scheme of things, especially since it means most of the full attack won't benefit from the +2 AB from charge, or Leap Attack or Rhino's Rush or whatever.

Saph
2009-04-30, 06:39 AM
What? A few hours ago you were saying:


Basically everyone is complaining that it's super broken for melee to be able to move and full attack

. . . when 'move and full attack' is exactly what Psionic Lion's Charge normally does. Now you're saying that it shouldn't do that? Make your mind up.

- Saph

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-30, 07:43 AM
{Scrubbed}

Prime32
2009-04-30, 07:53 AM
You've got to be joking. You're saying that a level 2 ability that basically gives you two turns instead of one (a charge and a full attack, both full-round actions) isn't broken?
Lycan claims that a +20 BAB character who manifests this power and attacks with a +1 valorous weapon will get to make four attacks, and a fifth which gains a +2 bonus and deals double damage.

By your interpretation, the power would allow the same character to make four attacks, all of which gain a +2 bonus and deal double damage. How is this less broken?

Learnedguy
2009-04-30, 08:11 AM
This is the second time in a week I see Dr_Horrible call someone a liar.

It upsets me.

Saph
2009-04-30, 08:18 AM
Lycan claims that a +20 BAB character who manifests this power and attacks with a +1 valorous weapon will get to make four attacks, and a fifth which gains a +2 bonus and deals double damage.

If they've gone to the trouble to get a Valourous weapon and have a +20 BAB, then it's a virtual certainty that they're going to have Pounce from some other source as well. So it's not going to be four attacks plus a fifth, it's going to be four attacks plus four attacks. (If you don't think it's easy to get Pounce by level 20, ask Person_Man to repost his Ways To Get Pounce list. I think he had somewhere in the neighbourhood of fifty last time I checked.)

Lycan's reading takes the power from 'very good' to 'brokenly good'. It's also obviously not RAI, as lions get Pounce, they don't get to take two turns on a charge.

- Saph

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-30, 08:43 AM
This is the second time in a week I see Dr_Horrible call someone a liar.

It upsets me.

Does it upset you because you think it's wrong for me to call people on it when they lie or because you think that they aren't lying?

Bandededed
2009-04-30, 09:33 AM
Every power point in the augment grants a +1 for every power point spent on the augment. So spending 4 power points on the augment gives +4 for each power point spent on the augment (ie, +16, to each attack).

No, that's really not how it works. It is obviously meant to be +x to damage, where +x is the number of additional points you spent. However, it could be argued to take place like this:

{table]Points spent | bonus
1 | 1
2 | 3
3 | 6
4 | 10[/table]

Where each point grants you a bonus equal to the sum of your previous total expenditure. I'd argue it doesn't work this way either, as you don't spend points incrementally while manifesting a power, but simultaneously. You put in a chunk, you get that chunk back out. You don't get that chunk squared.


Also, viewing psionic lion's charge in this light (except for the augment, of course) isn't actually broken, until and unless you start twinking it out. I mean, all it lets you do is make an additional charge on a round you do a full attack. It's an extra move and attack. Not a huge deal, generally.

Heavy op-fu can change the equation, obviously.

Heavy op-fu is required? Compared to most other melee schticks, full attacking three times in two rounds is superior. If you were to link psionic lion's charge with itself, you weasel another two, making it 5 times in two rounds, provided you have more than one enemy, or your previous enemy retreats after you beat him about a bit.

Lamech
2009-04-30, 10:00 AM
Hey fun fact under the srd about circumstance bonuses.
A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source.
Bold mine.
Now I think Psionic lion's charge is essentially the same source as psionic lion's charge.

Its under the basics section my URL link button isn't working.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-30, 11:16 AM
Basically everyone is complaining that it's super broken for melee to be able to move and full attack, because melee can't have nice things.No, we're complaining about melee getting 2 full-round actions at once. Charging is one of the most powerful offenses availible to melee. Pounce at the end of it is considered very powerful(look at how many builds suggest a Barb dip). Getting Pounce+another attack at your full BAB? That's a pretty powerful ability, along the lines of Swift Haste and Hustle
at once. I figure 6th level for that(combined spell level+1 for getting the 2 with one swift action). Any attempt to really optimize a charge getting you 2 full-attacks+a move just turns this into a 9th or higher ability.

lsfreak
2009-04-30, 11:18 AM
If they've gone to the trouble to get a Valourous weapon and have a +20 BAB, then it's a virtual certainty that they're going to have Pounce from some other source as well. So it's not going to be four attacks plus a fifth, it's going to be four attacks plus four attacks.
And on top of that, this interpretation holds that you get a bonus equal to the square of the PP invested. Manifest the power with 10 extra points, and you get 8 attack a round each dealing +100 damage.

Bluebeard
2009-04-30, 11:20 AM
Everything else is just an extension of the first. If you are investing both PP and a Barbarian Dip, you deserve something more then just one provides.

Okay.
You sold me.
Barbarian 1/Psychic Warriors and Barbarian 1/Ardents are unplayable as they stand.
They need a bone.
Henceforth, I expect all DMs to accept Lycan's argument.

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-30, 01:07 PM
No, we're complaining about melee getting 2 full-round actions at once. Charging is one of the most powerful offenses availible to melee. Pounce at the end of it is considered very powerful(look at how many builds suggest a Barb dip). Getting Pounce+another attack at your full BAB? That's a pretty powerful ability, along the lines of Swift Haste and Hustle
at once. I figure 6th level for that(combined spell level+1 for getting the 2 with one swift action). Any attempt to really optimize a charge getting you 2 full-attacks+a move just turns this into a 9th or higher ability.

Wrong, you are not getting Pounce + an extra attack. You are getting one more attack, and you are loosing whatever charge bonuses you would have for all your other attacks.

Deepblue706
2009-04-30, 01:08 PM
Why do I feel like this discussion could (with a few substituted nouns) just as readily be about Magic: The Gathering?

Another_Poet
2009-04-30, 01:16 PM
Even if you read it that way, you need to save at least one iterative attack for the end of your charge or you can't charge at all.

arguskos
2009-04-30, 01:31 PM
Why do I feel like this discussion could (with a few substituted nouns) just as readily be about Magic: The Gathering?
Because it's about as asinine as most of those arguments? *sigh* I love M:tG but damn, it's a stupid freakin' hobby sometimes.

As for this topic... I'm sorry, but quad-Pounce or something insane like that isn't "balanced" or "not a problem". The solution to melee sucking in 3.5 isn't to make them as powerful as casters. :smalltongue:

Learnedguy
2009-04-30, 04:07 PM
Does it upset you because you think it's wrong for me to call people on it when they lie or because you think that they aren't lying?

Good question, and the answer is neither of the suggestions mentioned. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

I just wanted you to know

You upset me :(

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-30, 05:31 PM
{Scrubbed}

Roland St. Jude
2009-04-30, 06:42 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Okay, this thread's devolved far enough. Please follow the Forum Rules.