V being trivialized?

[tKircher]

It seems to me that V is being increasingly trivialized in the recent comics. Admittedly, V has never been much more than the party wizard, but it seems the latest comics have gone to rather ludicrous lengths to keep V from being useful.

I mean, really. We went from 'character building' into 'fourth wall' before you could blink. Here we have V, easily the most powerful character in the party (possibly the known game world), doing nothing but standing around while sideplots get resolved through increasingly unlikely, contrived, or downright impossible means, each of which could have been solved more elegantly by V using her own power.

I'm not a stickler for the rulebooks, and i enjoy the self-awareness of the characters as much as anyone, but when someone goes to such lengths to develop a character, then utterly ignore them, it just seems wrong.

[Tass]

It seems to me that V is being increasingly trivialized in the recent comics. Admittedly, V has never been much more than the party wizard, but it seems the latest comics have gone to rather ludicrous lengths to keep V from being useful.

I mean, really. We went from 'character building' into 'fourth wall' before you could blink. Here we have V, easily the most powerful character in the party (possibly the known game world), doing nothing but standing around while sideplots get resolved through increasingly unlikely, contrived, or downright impossible means, each of which could have been solved more elegantly by V using her own power.

I'm not a stickler for the rulebooks, and i enjoy the self-awareness of the characters as much as anyone, but when someone goes to such lengths to develop a character, then utterly ignore them, it just seems wrong.


Well V did destroy the golem.

[Kurald Galain]

Well V did destroy the golem.

...and teleport the party to where they wanted to go...

...and helped the Azurites get to the place they needed to go...

...and saved his family...

[Bat Bear]

I'm pretty sure we're still in V's story, and not getting the chance to use his magic is just part of his charactar developement.

[Kaytara]

It seems to me that V is being increasingly trivialized in the recent comics. Admittedly, V has never been much more than the party wizard, but it seems the latest comics have gone to rather ludicrous lengths to keep V from being useful.

It bothered me a bit, but I think that's the whole point, the comedy/drama of it. And I think it's less "keep V from being useful" and more "keep V from getting an opportunity to brag about his awesomeness". Vaarsuvius has been putting great emphasis on the fact that it would be HIM to overcome the obstacle rather than that the obstacle would finally be overcome. So it's a lesson, sort of, one which Vaarsuvius has been admittedly needing.

If we're staying in the same vein, I'm more bothered by the ridiculous lengths it took to make Vaarsuvius "fall from grace", something the forumites have been treating just as if Vaarsuvius had simply decided one sunny day to become evil.

This, though, is getting increasingly ridiculous, but it's the point as well. :) And personally I think that it may also be serving the purpose of prodding Spliced-Vaarsuvius towards Azure City. He's been itching for a chance to accomplish something impressive, something his team-mates couldn't do, and now Belkar brought it up, as well. Belkar meant it as a joke, but I'll be surprised if Vaarsuvius isn't shown at least openly considering it.

[David Argall]

Having V frustrated in her efforts to achieve something has been the theme since the start of the fleet story. It's a running gag, common in many shows. That such gags often get more ridiculous as time goes on is perfectly normal.
If it makes you feel any better, this one is probably about over.

[Linkavitch]

It's a joke. V sold his soul to be more useful, but he can't do the things he wanted to do once he'd sold his soul. I.E. Unite party, find Haley, that sort of thing. he did Some of the things he wanted to do, (save family) but he has ended up doing a lot of things he didn't want to do. I.E. be with the Azurites at all, NOT show off his epic power that he SOLD his SOUL to get.

[Prak]

no, look, this is getting ridiculous, every time V tries to be useful, he gets trivialized, and now it's reached it's most blatant and ludicrous point, Haley literally going through the fourth wall to retrieve a diamond from another web page. It's starting to look like Rich just has a deep seated hatred for wizards and that it's time for V to simply leave, killing the Order on his way out is optional. But, if Rich has the hatred for wizards that it seems he does, it's much more likely V will stick around to be the group's new punching bag.

[David Argall]

Of course it is getting ridiculous. That's what gags do.

And no, there is no particular hatred of wizards. The butt of the gag gets treated this way.

[Arlion]

i thinks that the gag is that despite V powers,he doesnt get a chance to use them

[magic9mushroom]

I think it's a subtle dig at what DMs do in high-level games to try to stave off things turning into "Batman and the people he keeps around to heal him and hit stuff he's too lazy to kill himself".

I think it's intentionally overboard as a nod to that.

After all, having V pop to the Plane of Earth and back would have been just as effective.

IOW, the thread completely misses the point of the joke.

[JJ48]

I think magic9mushroom got it right. I mean, before gaining "Ultimate Arcane Power", V was constantly having to use his abilities to handle threats to the order. Now that he HAS the "UAP", though, what has he been able to do with it? He's been able to save his family, which was the specific reason he took the deal, and not really much else.

[tKircher]

No, i got the joke. I've been a reader for a couple years now (i remember Miko's introduction :smalltongue:), but this just sort of undermines V's development, in my opinion.



...and teleport the party to where they wanted to go...

So did this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html).


...and helped the Azurites get to the place they needed to go...

Yes, that's probably the only plot-related thing V was able to do; tie off the Azurites after every party member was no longer associated with them. They only went back because they realized after the fact that Hinjo never told them where Girard's Gate was (woops!).


...and saved his family...

Which was the point of it. Besides, V wasn't near enough to any other OOTS characters that could pointlessly run over to the Extras page and get Black Mage to fry the ABD for them.



Maybe i'm the only one that gets rubbed the wrong way by the Epic-level wizard being essentially ignored. After all, there's this great metaphysical force capable of moving mountains, and everyone opts to go to the cast page instead of use one of the key features of D&D.

They're not going to convert to Chainmail next strip, are they?

[Alex Knight]

Yes, V is being trivialized. That's part of the point. V thinks that UAP is the answer to everything.

This is showing hir that s/he is wrong in that belief. Remember, the Oracle said that gaining UAP would be "for all the wrong reasons".

[Zevox]

Here we have V, easily the most powerful character in the party (possibly the known game world), doing nothing but standing around while sideplots get resolved through increasingly unlikely, contrived, or downright impossible means, each of which could have been solved more elegantly by V using her own power.
Hold up, how has anything but the latest been in the least "unlikely, contrived, or downright impossible"? I mean really, the Sending was set up a long time ago, and for Durkon to use Wind Walk to get to Greysky City quickly was only logical - many posters suggested it may have happened as soon as we learned he had received the Sending. The diamond should have been impossible, true, but it was a one-off joke, and a hillarious one at that. And in spite of how much drama we've had recently, this is a comedic comic, so such jokes are to be expected. And hell, considering V isn't shown to be bothered in the least by that one, I don't think that one was intended to dig at her pride at all - its just faster and funnier than her going to the Plane of Earth.

Plus it isn't like V hasn't been useful at all. Ever since dealing with the Dragon, she's solved the Azure City Refugees' problem, provided the Order with a teleport out of Greysky and to the western continent, and quickly and efficiently destroyed Golem Roy. Not half bad, if you ask me; particularly the teleport.

Zevox

[derfenrirwolv]

It seems to me that V is being increasingly trivialized in the recent comics. Admittedly, V has never been much more than the party wizard, but it seems the latest comics have gone to rather ludicrous lengths to keep V from being useful.

Its intentional.

Its to show that V did need to make the deal to save his family, but KEEPING the splice after his family was strictly a matter of pride. It would have been possible to take the deal without tainting his soul... if he had done it to save his family and then ended the splice, and humbly asked his old master for a teleport or 6.

[magic9mushroom]

No, i got the joke. I've been a reader for a couple years now (i remember Miko's introduction :smalltongue:), but this just sort of undermines V's development, in my opinion.

In drama terms, yes. It's a textbook deus ex machina. And there's the sort of implicit expectation that if V becomes disillusioned with his power it should be because it's ACTUALLY not useful as opposed to the universe conspiring against him a la Black Mage.

However, the strip is a comedy strip too, and poking fun at DMs is fine by me.

[magic9mushroom]

Yes, V is being trivialized. That's part of the point. V thinks that UAP is the answer to everything.

This is showing hir that s/he is wrong in that belief. Remember, the Oracle said that gaining UAP would be "for all the wrong reasons".

Under normal D&D circumstances, it is. That's the thing.

[magic9mushroom]

Hold up, how has anything but the latest been in the least "unlikely, contrived, or downright impossible"? I mean really, the Sending was set up a long time ago, and for Durkon to use Wind Walk to get to Greysky City quickly was only logical - many posters suggested it may have happened as soon as we learned he had received the Sending. The diamond should have been impossible, true, but it was a one-off joke, and a hillarious one at that. And in spite of how much drama we've had recently, this is a comedic comic, so such jokes are to be expected. And hell, considering V isn't shown to be bothered in the least by that one, I don't think that one was intended to dig at her pride at all - its just faster and funnier than her going to the Plane of Earth.

Plus it isn't like V hasn't been useful at all. Ever since dealing with the Dragon, she's solved the Azure City Refugees' problem, provided the Order with a teleport out of Greysky and to the western continent, and quickly and efficiently destroyed Golem Roy. Not half bad, if you ask me; particularly the teleport.

Zevox

Indeed, all of this was set up, but it still is a rather cosmic coincidence.

It'd be funny if what happened next was for V to splat the LG single-handedly at Girard's Gate.

That'd be a nice subversion.

[magic9mushroom]

Its intentional.

Its to show that V did need to make the deal to save his family, but KEEPING the splice after his family was strictly a matter of pride. It would have been possible to take the deal without tainting his soul... if he had done it to save his family and then ended the splice, and humbly asked his old master for a teleport or 6.

Pride and pragmatism. It's much more convenient to have a highly epic mage in the party than to have a possibly-epic wizard occasionally help out.

[Zevox]

Indeed, all of this was set up, but it still is a rather cosmic coincidence.
No, they're not coincidences at all. They're jokes. This strip is more than just a good story, you may recall, but is in fact supposed to be funny, at least some of the time. So some jokes that may, from a strict story perspective, seem unlikely, will happen. V's frustration is amusing, and also happens to serve the extra purpose of not having her Splice powers be the solution to everything. That's why these things happen with the timing they do.

Zevox

[[TS] Shadow]

All of this is being solved with little to no assistance from V. Why? The magical force known as "karma" is punishing V for leaving the party. If he didn't do that, the ADB wouldn't have attacked his family (yet), thus V wouldn't have had to sell his soul. When he sold his soul, he thought that in addition to saving his family, he could fix everything. However, everything is getting fixed on it's own. That's his punishment: for leaving his friends (as they were useless) he was made useless himself. Even though he's the most powerful one there. It serves him right, really. He's been acting like a jerk to the party, and what he did to Kubota was wrong. Not to mention it's funny to see him this ticked off.:smallamused:

[Warren Dew]

So did this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html).

That guy is no longer available.

Honestly, Vaarsuvius is again the most useful member of the party in 649, though Haley is a close second. It's true that Vaarsuvius isn't particularly appreciated for it, but that's par for the course.

[magic9mushroom]

No, they're not coincidences at all. They're jokes. This strip is more than just a good story, you may recall, but is in fact supposed to be funny, at least some of the time. So some jokes that may, from a strict story perspective, seem unlikely, will happen. V's frustration is amusing, and also happens to serve the extra purpose of not having her Splice powers be the solution to everything. That's why these things happen with the timing they do.

Zevox

*facepalm*

I have posted that very point in this very thread.

Read my earlier posts.

What I'm saying is that in-universe it is a huge coincidence, ie, this wouldn't occur under real-world logic.

[Dixieboy]

I really only accept fourth wall leakages if they happen to be funny, this one wasn't.

Might have generated a few giggles around the globe, but compared to some of the old hilarity?
Meh :smallsigh:

[Souju]

I still hear echoes of what the cloaked guys were saying about alternatives to the splice, and why he wouldn't do it:
Because then he'd have to rely on a cleric, and would have to admit that arcane spells weren't infallible.
Most necessary person right now? Durkon
Who contacted him? the Cleric of Loki
The purpose of the comics since the reunification of the Order is basically to prove that ultimate arcane power is not all its cracked up to be.
Expect a long winded rant from V soon about his ineffectualness

[Assassin89]

I think the reason for V being trivialized is to show that often power is overrated. Often in the apprehension of power, people often forget thing, aside from power, that are important to them. V, although she still cares about her family, is becoming less involved in the relationship.

[Dagren]

Yes, that's probably the only plot-related thing V was able to do; tie off the Azurites after every party member was no longer associated with them. They only went back because they realized after the fact that Hinjo never told them where Girard's Gate was (woops!).Hinjo doesn't know. It's Roy who knows where the next gate is. I do wonder if we'll be seeing Hinjo in the next few comics though, particularly to see what he thinks of the Order. Bear in mind that he may have found out about Kubota by this point, and he may also have been annoyed at Durkon and Elan abandoning them (although I would expect a Paladin to understand that they have a duty to the rest of their group greater than to the Azurites). Still, it's possible that they aren't exactly Hinjo's favourite adventuring group any more.

Horrible thought, I don't think Hinjo knows about Nale, what if he's tracked the fleet? He's possibly tricky enough to fool even a paladin.

[magic9mushroom]

Hinjo doesn't know. It's Roy who knows where the next gate is. I do wonder if we'll be seeing Hinjo in the next few comics though, particularly to see what he thinks of the Order. Bear in mind that he may have found out about Kubota by this point, and he may also have been annoyed at Durkon and Elan abandoning them (although I would expect a Paladin to understand that they have a duty to the rest of their group greater than to the Azurites). Still, it's possible that they aren't exactly Hinjo's favourite adventuring group any more.

Horrible thought, I don't think Hinjo knows about Nale, what if he's tracked the fleet? He's possibly tricky enough to fool even a paladin.

Last time we saw Nale, he was flying off to resupply, then find a gate. If he's already unlocked a gate, we have bigger problems than him tracking the fleet.

[Trizap]

anyone who actually thinks that V being trivialized is wrong is completely missing the point.

just because you have great power, doesn't mean its the answer to everything
(remember Spiderman's slogan?)

[Mewtarthio]

Horrible thought, I don't think Hinjo knows about Nale, what if he's tracked the fleet? He's possibly tricky enough to fool even a paladin.

It wouldn't do him any good unless he could track a teleport.

[Wishpig]

anyone who actually thinks that V being trivialized is wrong is completely missing the point.

just because you have great power, doesn't mean its the answer to everything
(remember Spiderman's slogan?)

Bingo! My thoughts excatly...

Plus how can you call wiping out 25% of black dragons, teleporting to the destination they need, and stomping out the Bone Golmn in cute pink dragon form trivializing?! Although the black dragon situation could have been avoided if V didn't leave, the teleportation wasn't really needed, and the Bone Golemn could have been taken out many ways... and thats, like Trizap said... kinda the point.

V sold his/her soul out of arrogance and/or lust for power just as much as to save his/her family.

[magic9mushroom]

anyone who actually thinks that V being trivialized is wrong is completely missing the point.

just because you have great power, doesn't mean its the answer to everything
(remember Spiderman's slogan?)

With great power comes great responsibility.

Indeed.

But that's not what we've seen from V. What we've seen is:

With great power comes great impotence.

True, she's not being responsible, but that doesn't logically mean she'll immediately find it useless.

[with an e]

V's solution to the diamond problem was to move to the elemental plane of earth to find a diamond. Plane Shift is a level 5 cleric spell. Durkon would have been capable of getting the diamond, if not immediately, then in 8 hrs. It's just an amusing joke that doubles for alerting us that the cast page is back up. Relax and enjoy the fourth wall breaking.

[Demented]

With great power comes great responsibility.
The irony here being that V has acquired great power, but no additional responsibilities.

Spider-man grew to be responsible for a city (which is constantly under siege by petty criminals and irrationally powerful villains), but V is only responsible for a group of adventuring misfits who have the irritating capability of being able to look after themselves, for the most part.

Ultimate Arcane Power can solve problems quickly, but if you don't truly have that many problems to begin with, it's rather excessive.

[RMS Oceanic]

I've noticed that the probability of V being superfluous to requirement regarding any given problem correlates with the amount of bragging (s)he does about it.

Family in peril - went straight there and kicked ass.
Azure Fleet needs place to stay - found them one immediately, even if only to shut them up.
Finding Haley - "Witness as I finally unravel this myster-" REJECTED!
Getting Elan and Durkon - "Stare in awe as I use my power to summon-" REJECTED!
Golem needs destroyed - SMASH!

I don't know how to classify the diamond thing, as it was clearly a joke, but I think the other points stand. Everytime V tries to take an opportunity to boast about h** ultimate power solving a problem, the problem resolves itself out of spite.

[tKircher]

Anyone could have killed a tied up construct (no really, try killing your computer right now).

It seems the objection to this trivialization is more a matter of taste. I enjoy the excellent use of foreshadowing, plot moving, and character development usually as much as i enjoy the odd "fourth wall" jokes. But those jokes are relatively innocuous, because none of them undermine 10 strips previous to them or render useless a PC.

I could get some kind of faux-moral implications (Being powerful is bad!), but really, was all this necessary to say that? Wasn't Familicide enough to show that unbridled power is not always a positive thing?

[magic9mushroom]

I could get some kind of faux-moral implications (Being powerful is bad!), but really, was all this necessary to say that? Wasn't Familicide enough to show that unbridled power is not always a positive thing?

TV Tropes agrees. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AmbitionIsEvil)

[Kaytara]

Its intentional.
Its to show that V did need to make the deal to save his family, but KEEPING the splice after his family was strictly a matter of pride. It would have been possible to take the deal without tainting his soul... if he had done it to save his family and then ended the splice, and humbly asked his old master for a teleport or 6.

V: "I am sorry. I will let go of it now." *fancy effects*
K: *sniff* "I knew you had it in you, beloved."
(Later)
V: "Master Aarindarius, it has been some time. I am direly in need of your assistance in determining the exact location of an ally with whom I have been attempting to achieve a reunion. Her name is Haley Starshine and she is a human rogue with ginger hair."
A: "I will see what I can do. Aarindarius' Enhanced Scrying."
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V: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


Sorry, I don't see how giving up the Soul Splice at that moment, considering what V knew at the time, could have been anything other than extremely foolish and reckless.

Maybe that's the problem and the root of some of the dissatisfaction here. People are calling this pattern of uselessness karma yet it's difficult to really fault Vaarsuvius for anything. Keeping the Splice? If he'd let it go, he'd likely have lost his only real chance in months to find Haley, reunite the Order, and save the world. Taking the deal in the first place? The wrong reasons, yes, but we now know for sure that if he hadn't, his family would have been doomed, because Durkon wasn't anywhere near the fleet at the time and couldn't have resurrected V's severed head. The Familicide? It doesn't seem relevant to V's frustration here, and if he'd refrained from it it wouldn't have impacted his current situation either way.

So I'm sticking with my opinion that the universe isn't punishing V for taking the deal, per se, but simply for being such an arrogant and self-obsessed jerk about it. It fits, too, since V hasn't been completely useless - he's just been useless in the things he had genuinely wanted to be useful in.

RMS Oceanic makes a good point, too. As soon as V begins to long-windedly rub the Order's faces in it, the problem gets solved. If he doesn't brag and just does it, he succeeds, but it brings him little satisfaction because the Order reacts with blank faces.

[Dagren]

Last time we saw Nale, he was flying off to resupply, then find a gate. If he's already unlocked a gate, we have bigger problems than him tracking the fleet.Oh, I know, it was just an idle thought. (and come on, as unlikely as it is you can't say that it would be a good turn of events for either the Azurites or the Order)

I was re-reading the archives today and I came upon the Wooden Forest sequence again, and certain parallels struck me between V now and V as a lizard, namely when Roy gave Elan credit for V's feather fall. It isn't much, but it had the same ring of under-appreciation of V that seems to come over recently.

[JonahFalcon]

Its intentional.

Its to show that V did need to make the deal to save his family, but KEEPING the splice after his family was strictly a matter of pride. It would have been possible to take the deal without tainting his soul... if he had done it to save his family and then ended the splice, and humbly asked his old master for a teleport or 6.

V could have saved his family WITHOUT UAP, as was pointed out quite clearly.

I'm reminded of Gandalf and Galadriel turning down The Ring for this very reason in The Lord of the Rings.


“Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me.”


“And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!”

[Dagren]

V could have saved his family WITHOUT UAP, as was pointed out quite clearly.How? That ridiculous plan the IFCC offered? It's been quite clearly demonstrated in numerous ways that it would never have worked.

[Omegonthesane]

V could have saved his family WITHOUT UAP, as was pointed out quite clearly.
How? That ridiculous plan the IFCC offered? It's been quite clearly demonstrated in numerous ways that it would never have worked.
QFT. Let's see...

1) Resurrection and Sending both have a 10 minute casting time. No way can they both be cast in time to save V's family's lives.

2) Durkon wasn't anywhere near the Azurite fleet at the time, yet the fiends said he was to be found there. If V had gone along with that crazy plan, not only would he be dead, but he'd have failed to save a single soul.

3) Durkon didn't have a Res scroll, and probably isn't packing a Sending scroll either.

4) Aarindarius is likely not powerful enough to defeat an ABD with Anti-Magic Field.

Did I miss anything?

[Ovaltine Patrol]

It seems appropriate actually, deals with fiends rarely go well. V finally has the power to accomplish anything, but fate conspires to render it moot. Heck, if V had been a few seconds late, the Dragon might very well have slipped on a banana peel and died on its own.

[Elan man]

Honestly, Vaarsuvius is again the most useful member of the party in 649, though Haley is a close second.In 649 she is but in 650 durkon is by far the most useful.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

It seems to me that V is being increasingly trivialized in the recent comics.

No, I wouldn't say so. To me if something is being trivialised it means its being reduced in importance, significance, pushed aside etc, needlessly or against what is right.

We are, I feel, coming to the conclusion of one of V's character arcs. and an important one at that. The arc has had to do with V and his/her relation to power and the team importance (or lack there of) to that power and what it can and should be able to do.

The impression given (to me it seems) is that V will be learning a hard lesson about how ultimate arcane power isn't the happy fountain of joy imagined, nor does it making him/her truly unstoppable or the game winner.

Thus not trivialization, but a component of the story.


and Admittedly, V has never been much more than the party wizard, but it seems the latest comics have gone to rather ludicrous lengths to keep V from being useful.

Exactly. V has a game breaking amount of power some would say, yet his prideful need to demonstrate it, by being the one to solve everything, is being thwarted. It isn't V being trivialized. It is V being a part of the story.

As in time and time again he is given the chance to return the the team player level, but he can't. Now he is going to get the chance to show off by confronting Xykon, which I can't see ending well.

[derfenrirwolv]

A: "I will see what I can do. Aarindarius' Enhanced Scrying."
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V: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Laws of drama and comedy being what they are, how much would you bet that thats the exact minute the cloister spell would go down? Aandraius would have turned to him and asked "what seems to be the difficulty" ?




Taking the deal in the first place? The wrong reasons, yes, but we now know for sure that if he hadn't, his family would have been doomed, because Durkon wasn't anywhere near the fleet at the time and couldn't have resurrected V's severed head.


Right, I'm not a varsuvius hater. Far from it. Remember i supported his disintegration of Kabota. What I'm saying is that taking the splice for the RIGHT reasons would have lead him to different actions.

@ JonahFalcon

V may have been able to take on the dragon with less power than he has, but he couldn't even GET to the dragon under his own power. The entire point of the IFCC's plan, as qaar pointed out, wasn't that it would work. None of the other plans i've seen posed on the board were workable either. It was only offered to shift V's motive from "I need to save my family" to "I need to save my pride". When dealing with demons and selling your soul, i think the reason matters. If he'd done it with a pure heart, i don't think he'd be in half the predicament he's in.

[Nimrod's Son]

Maybe that's the problem and the root of some of the dissatisfaction here. People are calling this pattern of uselessness karma yet it's difficult to really fault Vaarsuvius for anything.
Apart from leaving the fleet, of course.

If he'd stayed and trusted in his friends, instead of running off to get some time alone to make his precious magic even better, then not only would he know where Haley was but it's also likely that he'd be better equipped to defend his family from the dragon without the need of the fiends' assistance. That's the lesson V has to learn here, and that's why he is at fault. The damage was already done by the time the fiends turned up.

[JonahFalcon]

Right, I'm not a varsuvius hater. Far from it. Remember i supported his disintegration of Kabota. What I'm saying is that taking the splice for the RIGHT reasons would have lead him to different actions.

Well, V destabilized the political culture over there, because the rift between Hinjo and Kabota was well known, and Hinjo will be accused of murdering a high noble that threatened his power base. Even if they find out V did it, guess who was "under the employ" of Hinjo? And the people of Kabota's region are screwed in more ways than one. There's going to be political (and probably bloody) squabbling over leadership - or worse, the district will be divided piecemeal among rival Lords.

Of course, V could solve this by killing all of Hinjo's rivals, right?

[Omegonthesane]

Well, V destabilized the political culture over there, because the rift between Hinjo and Kabota was well known, and Hinjo will be accused of murdering a high noble that threatened his power base. Even if they find out V did it, guess who was "under the employ" of Hinjo? And the people of Kabota's region are screwed in more ways than one. There's going to be political (and probably bloody) squabbling over leadership - or worse, the district will be divided piecemeal among rival Lords.

Of course, V could solve this by killing all of Hinjo's rivals, right?

Yes he could, and if he was interested in the welfare of Azure City, he would. Indeed, Hinjo should seriously consider it if the other nobles make too much of a fuss about how the evil Kubota mysteriously disappeared for trying to murder the only ruling class person with any actual interest in the welfare of the Azurites. It does help a lot that Hinjo is a paladin - if he goes too far with trying to rule with an iron fist and slips into Neutral or Evil territory, he'll lose his powers and have to atone.

[spargel]

I think he was mostly just making a joke and trying to tell an amusing story.

If there is supposed to be some kind of aesop here, using Deus Angst Machinas aren't the way to do it.


Well, V destabilized the political culture over there, because the rift between Hinjo and Kabota was well known, and Hinjo will be accused of murdering a high noble that threatened his power base. Even if they find out V did it, guess who was "under the employ" of Hinjo? And the people of Kabota's region are screwed in more ways than one. There's going to be political (and probably bloody) squabbling over leadership - or worse, the district will be divided piecemeal among rival Lords.

Of course, V could solve this by killing all of Hinjo's rivals, right?

Having a fairly intelligent guy who's constantly trying to get you killed run free while having Elan as your bodyguard isn't really a great alternative. If Therka didn't fall in love with Elan, things probably would of went differently.