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Prime32
2009-05-02, 04:24 PM
Well, why not? Let's try to think up another continuity of robot/colony warfare.




First, however you look at it, rocket engines are not very efficient for atmospheric combat. A mobile suit designed for space use might be able to "jump good" on land (well, for a giant mass of titanium), but hovering would expend fuel at an absurd rate.

What then, can mobile suits use for aerial battles? Helicopter rotors. I don't think there has ever been a series which used them. I can imagine an MS with small manouevering thrusters, and a heli-backpack unit which can be switched with a rocket engine for space use.


Second, if characters have fancy psychic powers, they should be of some use outside of a Humongous Mecha. Maybe something like s-CRY-ed (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/S-Cry-ed) LiteTM (eg. A character with Master Of Disguise illusory powers who can turn their mech invisible)


Third, there needs to be an Upper Class Twit (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UpperClassTwit) character who builds himself a Super Robot... which is only slightly better than a mook unit, because a Rocket Punch isn't really that useful no matter how much money you put into it. Spoiler: Unless it contains a powerful bomb (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ObfuscatingStupidity).

You thought this thread would be about an engineering (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/809204/real_giant_robot/) project (http://www.neogentronyx.com/), didn't you? :smalltongue:

Xuincherguixe
2009-05-02, 05:08 PM
It needs laser chainsaws.

Possibly magic.

chiasaur11
2009-05-02, 05:11 PM
It needs laser chainsaws.

Possibly magic.

Laser chainsaw nunchucks.

And at least one large ham.

We're talking Shatner levels here.

BizzaroStormy
2009-05-02, 06:03 PM
Gundams don't need fuel. They're powered by burning the remains of those who question them and .967% pure condensed awesome.

Lemming
2009-05-02, 06:48 PM
...and .967% pure condensed awesome.
...I think awesomesauce would work better.

BizzaroStormy
2009-05-02, 07:13 PM
...I think awesomesauce would work better.

No, the red bull and chuck norris tears added into the sauce would make the unit too expensive.

Ascension
2009-05-02, 08:46 PM
I'd like to see a full series with the masked Well Intentioned Extremist with the Zaku-clone army as the protagonist and the plucky band of Gundam-piloting rebel misfits as the antagonists.

"They send a irrational child in some overglorified prototype machine to challenge me? Fools! They shall perish!"

By the way, Victory used beam rotors. Ugh.

Your upper class twit sounds a lot like Harry Champ from Zoids.

Fri
2009-05-02, 10:50 PM
No, the red bull and chuck norris tears added into the sauce would make the unit too expensive.

Only for the main protagonists then. That what made them different, just as physic breaking engine of gundam 00

UltraDude
2009-05-03, 08:42 AM
I still like the idea of "Mobile suits are for space combat and land warfare. Humanoid shapes are not meant to fly."

In fact if I ever write Gundam fanfiction, a character attempting to use their mobile suit to fly in order to make a desperate last-ditch attack at escaping enemies is probably going to need some heavy duty duct-taping to make it back to base at all.

And yeah, Victory did the helicopter thing... with beam rotors... somehow.

Graymayre
2009-05-03, 08:53 AM
Slightly simple:

Do not make big engines to fly this thing around, make atom sized engines that cover the entire thing. Allow it to gain energy through solar absorbtion.

Expend said energy in bursts for perfect maneuverability.

Another way could be by making "sails" on it's back that you push energy into (which sounds pretty awesome).

Prime32
2009-05-03, 03:50 PM
Another way could be by making "sails" on it's back that you push energy into (which sounds pretty awesome).
I had an idea for Magitek mechs which was something like that (written after watching a large chunk of Nanoha in one sitting then reading Gundam articles on Wikis). It also had broadcast power. For people.

I say that any ideas posted here have a decent chance of making it into an actual Gundam series... because we all know the writers of 00 were OotS fanboys (I'm looking at you, Tieria :vaarsuvius: :smalltongue:)

Storm Bringer
2009-05-03, 04:44 PM
the way to achieve atmosphereic flight for a gundam would not be with rockets, but though a visualy similar but mechanicaly diferent system I saw in the Mechwarrior fluff.

Basically, it explained that the battletech jump jets worked by sucking in air and then forcing that air though part of the cooling system for the mecha's fusion reactor, which superheated the air, thus causing it to expand rapidly (just as if fuel had been burnt in the air).

Duct said superhot air out of mech, and volia! you have a thrust mechanism that uses almost no fuel (beyond that needed for the mech in the first place). It's effectivly a jet engine that replaces the fuel burnt to heat the air with 'waste' heat form the reactor. It's workable enough science for a giant robot show to get away with.

What i think screws the idea of mecha as the primary air asset of an army is speed. Barring macross style transforming mecha, simple airodynamics would stop a mecha from competing with a conventional jet in a straight line race. to be honest, they are not really suited at all to the sorts of jobs jet aricraft do. However, they could well take over the helicopter gunships 'close support' role, and would make quite good spearhead units for a airdrop/planetfall mission.

the reason gundams work in space is that the AMBAC system allows for quick and thrustless manuvering, giving a huge advantage over propellant base manuvering in the short range dogfighting that is characristic of the gundam series

Trizap
2009-05-03, 06:52 PM
any gundam I would create probably wouldn't be well received-

the Gundams would only be 15-20 ft tall as 50 ft tall robots sounds like the would be too expensive and impractical to build.
They would be made out of far more flexible materials to allowing for better movement in battle, and so that they would be lighter
pilots would probably have to control the Gundam by hooking it up to their brains like in the matrix, as I can't see something complex as a giant robot being controlled with buttons and levers.
no giant swords or knives; the mecha I would make would have giant hammers, those deal much more damage and would be much effective against armor.
furthermore, such things wouldn't carry around giant machine guns or rifles- only energy cannons, things that cause a lot of collateral damage, because
bullets and swords are precision-type weapons, a giant mecha would be used to make as much damage as possible, so they would use weapons that would be just as destructive.

UltraDude
2009-05-03, 08:46 PM
Sounds a bit like Orbital Frames with hammers and no flight (?). Which is an awesome idea.

Trizap
2009-05-03, 10:15 PM
Sounds a bit like Orbital Frames with hammers and no flight (?). Which is an awesome idea.

.........the only flight I could think of would be slow clunky airplane flight for them, as things that large and complex, while smaller than ordinary mechs wouldn't be able to pull good air stunts or go very fast, only long-distance kind of stuff, so yea they would have flight, but it wouldn't be used in battle.

UltraDude
2009-05-03, 10:46 PM
The bastard child of an Orbital Frame and an Arm Slave... with a hammer.

I'd watch it.

Trizap
2009-05-03, 11:23 PM
The bastard child of an Orbital Frame and an Arm Slave... with a hammer.

I'd watch it.

ok....whatever.....I was just following what I considered to be logical and physically possible, had nothing to do with those shows, heck I don't even know what those two things are

KnightDisciple
2009-05-03, 11:59 PM
Well, here's my thoughts, mainly on technology.

First, I like how Gundam 00 approached a lot of it.
That is, exotic particles (GN particles, Minovsky particles, whatever) aren't just used in the power generators and as jamming, but are also part of propulsion. Mecha expel the particles (in much smaller doses than equivalent rockets spit out particles) to provide thrust and maneuvering. In-atmosphere lift is generated by...hm. Maybe a special device that uses the exotic particles to push against the Earth's magnetic field? Thus "antigrav"?

Most mechs, and even vehicles, store and run on these particles. All generators (well, all known generators) are large; we're talking the same size as the mechs, you know, 40+ feet. Mechs and vehicles must store these particles, and recharge every so often, depending on usage and such.

Hence why mechs are so big; they need room for particle storage tanks, spread throughout the body.

Then come the Gundams. They have generators small enough to fit in their body (not stick out the back, but be buried underneath armor plating). The extra room stores higher powered motive units, ammo storage, extra weapons, that sort of thing.

Also, projectile weapons can still be valid. Armor-piercing explosive rounds? Hypersonic kinetic penetrators? Plus, precision damage can be good. Say you want to snipe the cockpit, and leave the mech itself intact for study?

And for mech on mech fights, cutting implements like "vibroswords" and the like can be used more quickly, and can cut off whole limbs. Hence their usage alongside hammers and the like.

As for piloting, I prefer something like a suit not unlike G-Gundam (full body feedback), but instead of being in a weird motion capture thing, they wear a helmet and lay back in a reclining seat and control the mecha mentally. Same overall result as the Matrix setup, but less invasive brain surgery.

Trizap
2009-05-04, 01:14 AM
Well, here's my thoughts, mainly on technology.

First, I like how Gundam 00 approached a lot of it.
That is, exotic particles (GN particles, Minovsky particles, whatever) aren't just used in the power generators and as jamming, but are also part of propulsion. Mecha expel the particles (in much smaller doses than equivalent rockets spit out particles) to provide thrust and maneuvering. In-atmosphere lift is generated by...hm. Maybe a special device that uses the exotic particles to push against the Earth's magnetic field? Thus "antigrav"?

Most mechs, and even vehicles, store and run on these particles. All generators (well, all known generators) are large; we're talking the same size as the mechs, you know, 40+ feet. Mechs and vehicles must store these particles, and recharge every so often, depending on usage and such.

Hence why mechs are so big; they need room for particle storage tanks, spread throughout the body.

Then come the Gundams. They have generators small enough to fit in their body (not stick out the back, but be buried underneath armor plating). The extra room stores higher powered motive units, ammo storage, extra weapons, that sort of thing.

Also, projectile weapons can still be valid. Armor-piercing explosive rounds? Hypersonic kinetic penetrators? Plus, precision damage can be good. Say you want to snipe the cockpit, and leave the mech itself intact for study?

And for mech on mech fights, cutting implements like "vibroswords" and the like can be used more quickly, and can cut off whole limbs. Hence their usage alongside hammers and the like.

As for piloting, I prefer something like a suit not unlike G-Gundam (full body feedback), but instead of being in a weird motion capture thing, they wear a helmet and lay back in a reclining seat and control the mecha mentally. Same overall result as the Matrix setup, but less invasive brain surgery.

you have your style. I have mine.

UltraDude
2009-05-05, 07:52 AM
ok....whatever.....I was just following what I considered to be logical and physically possible, had nothing to do with those shows, heck I don't even know what those two things are

Yeah, I figured. Arm Slaves are from Full Metal Panic! which gets a lot of credit for more realistic mechs (unless they have a Lambda Driver, which I won't spoil the use of), and Orbital Frames are from the GODLY Zone of the Enders mech action games on PS2, and are like... humanoid jet fighters.

Knight Disciple: I tend to lean towards the UC style stories where the 'Gundams' aren't the be-all end-all of mobile suit design, at least when making my own stories. Most of my ideas involved prototypes - like the original Gundam - that have exceptional performance in one area that they were designed as a testbed for, but overall unbalanced performance.

One idea I had was a mobile suit primarily designed for testing new, high-performance maneuverability systems in space that also had testing of the brand new technology of mobile suit-sized beam weapons shunted onto to it mid-development, because it had a really powerful generator, and was already built and functional. However, it has sorely lacking armor, the beam rifle can only fire a few shots, it has little raw muscle, and performs poorly Earth-side.

Fri
2009-05-05, 01:39 PM
Actually, it'd be better to start with the setting first. What the robot looked like an their power level will be easily and better defined after we got the setting.

It should have some sort of war between earth federation and the colony, because that define all gundam setting. But it's the only definitive thing on Gundam.

So... what is it now? Post apocalyptic? Grimdark? Steampunk?

Prime32
2009-05-05, 01:50 PM
It should have some sort of war between earth federation and the colony, because that define all gundam setting. But it's the only definitive thing on Gundam.
00 didn't have a war between the Federation and the colonies... heck, the Federation didn't even exist for quite a while.

Oh, and there needs to be a mobile suit which can Beam Spam in all directions (including backwards)... partnered with an MS with funnels that can unfold slightly into mirrors, allowing all the beams to be focused on a single point similarly to the Dance of Darkness and Light (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuPKRbKSjWM&fmt=18).

For that matter, funnels go well with everything. A missile? Deploy funnels to shoot down counter-missiles. An attack which is totally not a ripoff of Aussenreiter's Shoulder Bludgeon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSFmDje7L70)? Splits into funnels to avoid someone cutting it in two. A toaster? Hell if I know, but stick some in anyway.

chiasaur11
2009-05-05, 02:02 PM
Actually, it'd be better to start with the setting first. What the robot looked like an their power level will be easily and better defined after we got the setting.

It should have some sort of war between earth federation and the colony, because that define all gundam setting. But it's the only definitive thing on Gundam.

So... what is it now? Post apocalyptic? Grimdark? Steampunk?

Robots Vs Humans!
Cliche, yes, of course.

Fun? Also yes.

Plus one of those occasional irritating robot mascots being the mole? Fun times.

Prime32
2009-05-05, 02:54 PM
Plus one of those occasional irritating robot mascots being the mole? Fun times.
00 did that too (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSimpsonsDidIt). Didn't you hear? Ribbons is a Haro (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WMG/Gundam00) :smalltongue: They are already rebelling (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXqoli-xDPE&fmt=18).

Seraph
2009-05-05, 06:35 PM
Takes place entirely around Saturn, around the colony cluster used to harvest he3. a group of extremely Alien Aliens (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StarfishAliens) whose native environment is gas giants arrive to colonize Saturn, but the nature of human technology and communications are extremely disruptive to their way of life and they attack humanity out of percieved neccesity.

The main character is a 17 year old who has a part time job using industrial mobile suits until the Aliens come along, at which he's drafted into the military as a mobile suit pilot.

skip forward a few years, at which point the main character is promoted to a new squadron and assigned to pilot a Gundam designed to specifically fight the Aliens. shortly thereafter, a xenobiologist finally finds out how to communicate with the Aliens, and finds out that they're not united in a desire to wipe out humanity.

after communication is established, both humans and the aliens divide into two factions, those who want to communicate and those who want to obliterate the other side in revenge for their losses.

KnightDisciple
2009-05-05, 07:51 PM
@Seraph: I like it.

Maybe take some of that, and some of my idea? Somehow Saturn is the only planet that produces a particular gas mix or some such necessary for the initial creation of the exotic particle generators.
You know, the ones that everything on earth and everywhere else is powered by.

Lupy
2009-05-05, 07:52 PM
No, the red bull and chuck norris tears added into the sauce would make the unit too expensive.

Huh. I never knew awesomesauce could cure cancer. Guess I should've realized it.

Too bad Chuck never cries.

chiasaur11
2009-05-05, 07:57 PM
Huh. I never knew awesomesauce could cure cancer. Guess I should've realized it.

Too bad Chuck never cries.

That makes no sense. If this was true, there'd be no awesomesauce. And if there is no awesomesauce, what are the ingredients of Nextwave and Scott Pilgrim?

(Other than love and win)

Trizap
2009-05-05, 08:56 PM
how about a setting where a meteor shot down from the sky onto earth, and only a fraction of humanity managed to escape to Mars before Earth was devastated, and centuries later, after much terraforming, Mars nations are finding they are running out of supplies because Mars is only 1/3 the size of Earth, so war breaks out over what resources the remaining humans have on Mars and the protagonist has to find a way to stop the fighting before humanities second home is destroyed as well.

hows that?

Fri
2009-05-06, 03:25 AM
I like that one better actually, since gundam don't mesh too well with alien.

And then, about half season, earthling invaded mars. Awesome.

Kato
2009-05-07, 03:04 PM
I kind of feel nostalgic and so I wonder... how about making something more lighthearted again?
You know, some fancy colorful Gundams, piloted by brain waves or so, with a great, long G-esque tournament arc. I dunno, I could image something like a battle of scientists trying to find out which suits the best or so with all kinds of fancy feats. And if there is need, throw in some deep backstory about a crushed life or two. Just not always the evil war thing, where you need to set up someone as the bad guy if it can just be competition between amibitous guys *shrug*

Or we take all the old Gundam characters, throw them in a cage and call it a day. (Tomorrow or so we come and pick up the winner... whoever that might be *hint*)

Prime32
2009-05-07, 03:34 PM
I kind of feel nostalgic and so I wonder... how about making something more lighthearted again?
You know, some fancy colorful Gundams, piloted by brain waves or so, with a great, long G-esque tournament arc. I dunno, I could image something like a battle of scientists trying to find out which suits the best or so with all kinds of fancy feats. And if there is need, throw in some deep backstory about a crushed life or two. Just not always the evil war thing, where you need to set up someone as the bad guy if it can just be competition between amibitous guys *shrug*
That's kind of what I was going for with the "psychic powers which are useful if you happen to be one of the three people in the world without a giant robot" and "parody super" things.

What about something similar-looking to Phase Shift Armour, but created by the pilot's psychic abilities? Variations when even the same model is piloted by different people - also provides a justification for a Gundam to turn black when someone evil steals it.


Or we take all the old Gundam characters, throw them in a cage and call it a day. (Tomorrow or so we come and pick up the winner... whoever that might be *hint*)
GN-Freedom Gundam. Yes, Kira somehow attains a Twin Drive upgrade while in the cage. :smalltongue:

chiasaur11
2009-05-07, 04:04 PM
That's kind of what I was going for with the "psychic powers which are useful if you happen to be one of the three people in the world without a giant robot" and "parody super" things.

What about something similar-looking to Phase Shift Armour, but created by the pilot's psychic abilities? Variations when even the same model is piloted by different people - also provides a justification for a Gundam to turn black when someone evil steals it.


GN-Freedom Gundam. Yes, Kira somehow attains a Twin Drive upgrade while in the cage. :smalltongue:

Which makes it almost pathetic when he gets beaten senseless by Megas.

Some people don't even CRASH parties on time.

Prime32
2009-05-07, 04:07 PM
Teru Mikami: "DEFILER!!!"

Nerd-o-rama
2009-05-21, 01:12 PM
Oh hey, I'm back now, so I'm bumping this thread.

I am not totally sure of our goal here, though. Making a fairly realistic giant robot, or making one that's awesome? The two things, while not exclusive, are different. And are we trying to make a show or a mech?

Anyway, several people mentioned the key thing I like to see in mecha, which is the mecha being directly controlled by the pilot's motions and/or nerve impluses (the former from G Gundam or SRW, the latter from Evangelion or Nadesico). It's the best justification I can think of for a humanoid shape. I'd also propose a small default size - 6-8 meters. Trying to think of how 20 meter Gundams move makes my head hurt.

As for flight...I can see VTOL attachments capable of lifting these things using rotors. They'd be large and bulky, and mainly used for overland transport rather than combat, but you can get them to fly. And of course, these being heavy things are still at their most effective in zero-G, where they would have some sort of attached vernier thrusters to maneuver, in addition to the momentum manipulation possibilities that limbs give you. Gundam got that right enough.

Prime32
2009-05-21, 01:39 PM
I am not totally sure of our goal here, though. Making a fairly realistic giant robot, or making one that's awesome? The two things, while not exclusive, are different. And are we trying to make a show or a mech?
Well, my OP was for a "continuity", though a continuity still needs mechs.


Anyway, several people mentioned the key thing I like to see in mecha, which is the mecha being directly controlled by the pilot's motions and/or nerve impluses (the former from G Gundam or SRW, the latter from Evangelion or Nadesico). It's the best justification I can think of for a humanoid shape.I also had the idea of requiring a duplicate of the human body (well, the nervous system or blood vessels) to use psychic powers with a mech. In this case, MS would be limited in number (since only Newtypes or whatever would get any benefit from them, and those extra systems reduce the amount of armour plating you can add)... unless at least one side consisted solely of psychics or had the means to mass-produce them - then some characters might use stolen suits.


As for flight...I can see VTOL attachments capable of lifting these things using rotors. They'd be large and bulky, and mainly used for overland transport rather than combat, but you can get them to fly. And of course, these being heavy things are still at their most effective in zero-G, where they would have some sort of attached vernier thrusters to maneuver, in addition to the momentum manipulation possibilities that limbs give you. Gundam got that right enough.
I came up with a design for a hybrid helicopter/MS/jet thing
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd54/Prime32_temp/Other/heli_bot.png
Shown here in storage mode - it can move around on those tank threads. It takes off by unfolding the "wings" so that the vehicle takes on a "+" shape. When speed is required, the helicopter rotors rotate 90 degrees, converting it into a propellor-driven plane. The lower segment of the back can transform into a pair of arms in heli-mode.


Also, this
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd54/Prime32_temp/Other/arm_bot.png