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View Full Version : Wanda's new Unit/Ansom Weaknesses



Malanthyus
2009-05-02, 06:48 PM
Topic pretty much says it all, although it's been discussed in other threads, I kind of thought it deserved it's own. So, to summarize:

Wanda has "Decrypted" Ansom, he retains his status as a level 10 warlord. He no longer has an upkeep, and seems to be completely loyal to parson's side.

Possible downsides noted so far:

He might no longer be able to get experience/gain levels.

Wanda might be exagerating the never decay part.

This is more than likely his "Last life", she won't be able to decrypt him if he falls again.

He could simply be faking loyalty.

Any you can think of, post 'em here!

Kreistor
2009-05-02, 07:03 PM
1. Uncroaked warlords can gain levels. You really think a more intelligent warlord wouldn't?

2. Wanda is certain he won't decay.

3. Enemy uncroaked are not known to be uncroaked more than once, so that's not different.

Any suspicions of loyalty are just that.

There is one, and only one, weakness of this unit in comparison to other units. They can't be popped. TO get a Level 10 Warlord, you must kill a Level 10 Warlord.

Sethram
2009-05-02, 07:27 PM
1. Uncroaked warlords can gain levels. You really think a more intelligent warlord wouldn't?

2. Wanda is certain he won't decay.

3. Enemy uncroaked are not known to be uncroaked more than once, so that's not different.

Any suspicions of loyalty are just that.

There is one, and only one, weakness of this unit in comparison to other units. They can't be popped. TO get a Level 10 Warlord, you must kill a Level 10 Warlord.

Ansom could possibly be one of the highest level Warlords as well given his impulse to always be fighting alongside his troops to preserve them.

charles
2009-05-02, 07:31 PM
Seems like a freedom thing to me.

It may not be that he's loyal to Parson, as much as the Loyalty spells that applied to him before are no longer present.

i.e. it might turn out that he has free will.

Then again, Wanda might hold some sway over him.

If he costs 0 upkeep, it does imply that there must be some disadvantage. Upkeep seems to also imply that food pops for you in the morning. So maybe they have to start farming the land and gathering their own food to feed the masses.

This all makes me wonder if there are far more powers to be discovered in the Arkenhammer than simply taming Dwagons, throwing bolts of lightning and turning birds into walnuts.

Alteran
2009-05-02, 07:34 PM
2. Wanda is certain he won't decay.


Wanda was also certain that Jillian wouldn't break the suggestion spell. She may be less "certain" than she appears to be, as we do know that she is very proud of her work. I wouldn't be surprised if she made her creation look a little better than it is, much like the spell she had on Jillian.

raphfrk
2009-05-02, 08:03 PM
It may not be that he's loyal to Parson, as much as the Loyalty spells that applied to him before are no longer present.


He does say that he was misguided. Maybe he didn't mean mistaken, but given bad advice by someone, i.e. they misguided him.

Revlid
2009-05-02, 08:04 PM
Wanda was also certain that Jillian wouldn't break the suggestion spell. She may be less "certain" than she appears to be, as we do know that she is very proud of her work. I wouldn't be surprised if she made her creation look a little better than it is, much like the spell she had on Jillian.

No. That wasn't a sales pitch, she was CERTAIN Jillian wouldn't be able to break the spell - part of the reason she went BlueScreen.

This is her stating, categorically, a trait possessed by a decrypted Warlord.

Cracklord
2009-05-02, 08:05 PM
Seems like a freedom thing to me.

It may not be that he's loyal to Parson, as much as the Loyalty spells that applied to him before are no longer present.

i.e. it might turn out that he has free will.

Then again, Wanda might hold some sway over him.

If he costs 0 upkeep, it does imply that there must be some disadvantage. Upkeep seems to also imply that food pops for you in the morning. So maybe they have to start farming the land and gathering their own food to feed the masses.

This all makes me wonder if there are far more powers to be discovered in the Arkenhammer than simply taming Dwagons, throwing bolts of lightning and turning birds into walnuts.

So totally overturning conservation of matter (and creating life), taming some of the best units in the game and allowing you to one hit a chief warlord who has to be around level ten (He wiped the floor with Jillian, who's a nine), and about fourty heavies is bad now? And it lets him fly, don't forget that.

azukar8
2009-05-02, 08:07 PM
I mentioned this in the main strip thread, but it seems relevant here too...


Notice that the royal radishes on Decrypt!Ansom's vest didn't change into hampsters, they changed into *skulls*. If anything symbolises Wanda, it's that.

So... to whom are these new units loyal? It might be a moot point if Wanda is still loyal to Hampster or Stanley, but if not..?

raphfrk
2009-05-02, 08:29 PM
Notice that the royal radishes on Decrypt!Ansom's vest didn't change into hampsters, they changed into *skulls*. If anything symbolises Wanda, it's that.


It could also mean that he was decrypted. Also, it could be the symbol of the pliers.

Alteran
2009-05-02, 08:46 PM
No. That wasn't a sales pitch, she was CERTAIN Jillian wouldn't be able to break the spell - part of the reason she went BlueScreen.

This is her stating, categorically, a trait possessed by a decrypted Warlord.

She was certain, and she was wrong. Jillian broke the spell, and then Wanda broke down. The new Ansom is not unquestionably the way she says he is. He probably is, as we don't have a major reason to distrust what she's saying now. Just remember that she is a person with an overwhelming need to be in control. She may overestimate the capabilities of her control to pacify herself, to assure herself that she does indeed have the control she desires. We can't trust what she says entirely. I'm sure Wanda has motives we don't know about - after all, the Arkenpliers were one thing already. She implies that she has been seeking them for a very long time, something she did not tell anybody else (that we know of).

dr pepper
2009-05-02, 08:51 PM
Seems like a freedom thing to me.


Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose

slayerx
2009-05-02, 08:56 PM
Well, aside from the intelligence and no decay, i'm guessing Ansom has all the general traits of an uncroaked... one possibility is that uncroaked can not be healed by magic and could even be harmed as it is with some RPG's...


Wanda was also certain that Jillian wouldn't break the suggestion spell. She may be less "certain" than she appears to be, as we do know that she is very proud of her work. I wouldn't be surprised if she made her creation look a little better than it is, much like the spell she had on Jillian.
No there is a sharp difference between Wanda's certainty over Jillian and wanda's certainty over the decrypted...

Wanda's certainty over Jillian was based on what she THOUGHT she knew about Jillian... she THOUGHT Jillian loved her enough that she would not be able to pick ansom over her... she was not wrong about the suggestion spell, but wrong about Jillian's character, which all in all was nothing more than an opinion... Jillian's opinion of wanda and Ansom was an unknowable quality and thus wanda truly could have never been uncertain; this is more then likely, unlike "decay"

When it comes to the Decrypted, remember Wanda does not know what they are... she is seeing this for the first time... She would not carelessly toss out info like saying it has "no decay". If she only THOUGHT their was no decay, then she would say it in a questioning fashion "it might not decay"... no her statement that it has "no Decay" more then likely comes from looking at Ansom stats... such as that uncroaked normally have "decay" in their stats where Ansom has none.


If he costs 0 upkeep, it does imply that there must be some disadvantage. Upkeep seems to also imply that food pops for you in the morning. So maybe they have to start farming the land and gathering their own food to feed the masses.

I find that unlikely... 0 upkeep more than likely means that the unit does not require food. More than likely, uncroaked probably have 0 upkeep as well... Waht Parson and Wanda are observing from Ansom is that he is some kind of cross between a living unit and an uncroaked... he does not need to eat like the uncroak, but he does not Decay either

WarriorTribble
2009-05-02, 09:08 PM
I like to think the reason there is no upkeep is because the uncrypted units draw sustenance from the pliers itself. This should mean there’s a hard limit on how many units can be uncryted at once.

herrhauptmann
2009-05-02, 09:10 PM
Don't forget that she has the arkenpliers now.
Maggie stated that the arkendish gave charlie a control of thinkamancy she couldn't match.
And we already know that Wanda was a powerful croakamancer, so being attuned to pliers, she's far more capable at even normal croakamancy than she ever was before.
What worries me: It strikes me that Wanda caused the downfall of FAQ at some point, because she had heard (from a fortune cookie?) that she'd be able to gain the pliers, and that everything she has done was towards that goal.

In addition, she was under no loyalty spells to the Tool, which means that she chose to join him. So if she chose him as her path to the pliers, what will she do now that she has it? (probably already said on the regular thread, but I don't usually get to that fast enough, and have no desire to go digging through 5 pages before I have my say)

ishnar
2009-05-02, 09:15 PM
What worries me: It strikes me that Wanda caused the downfall of FAQ at some point, because she had heard (from a fortune cookie?) that she'd be able to gain the pliers, and that everything she has done was towards that goal.



That would be so funny if predictamancers were fortune cookie dispensers.

Earendill
2009-05-02, 09:15 PM
Maybe he is a unit with no weakness. A unit that costs nothing, has free will, no Loyalty issues (and is smart enough to understand what happens around). Maybe the same applies to every other Decrypted.

Maybe they become a lot less "units" and a lot more "humans". A game cannot continue with such "units" - and then Janis said - the war will end !

The Game World will became an actual world. Something glorious indeed!

DrakebloodIV
2009-05-02, 10:38 PM
1.) He counts as Uncroaked (probably) so any weapon that deals extra damage to uncroaked will be important
2.) Wanda still most likely has a limit to the number of units she can decrypt
3.) He might not heal, even if he dosent decay

I believe that a decrypted unit counts as exactly the same unit it was before. It might not gain levels, but were maggie still a corpse she would probably still be able to cast as a decrypted unit.

Ultimatum479
2009-05-02, 10:58 PM
The fact that Ansom remembers his past makes Loyalty a problem. Even normal units can be turned; Ansom is not a normal unit, what with his close ties to Jillian and Vinny and his previous care for Jetstone's ideals and such. It's likely he can be turned back. Whether or not he will return to Jetstone is a different matter; Wanda and Parson can be quite persuasive, and Stanley, despite his faults, seems to instill a pretty strong sense of Duty in his units, so if that carries through Wanda to Ansom I don't see much chance of him switching back any time soon unless Jillian pulls a BY THE POWER OF HEART! or the like. However, other units might be problematic. If Wanda just re-rezzed any old Uncroaked, Webinar and Dora will be issues.

azukar8
2009-05-03, 12:53 AM
It could also mean that he was decrypted. Also, it could be the symbol of the pliers.

True on both counts. But... when Wanda uncroaked the legions of Coalition warriors (the Trioxin spell), the grunts all changed from having a radish motif to a hamster motif.

We'll have to wait and see, anyway.

slayerx
2009-05-03, 01:13 AM
Ya, i wouldn't mind getting a Klog to detail the strengths and limitations of the known arkentools...

Without limitations, the arkentools can be serious game breakers...
i mean, Wanda seems to be raising an entire army; and if they are decrypted just like Ansom is, then it means she pretty much captured every unit they croaked last battle and converted them to their side, but with the added benefit of no upkeep costs... all of this came at little cost... seriously, while the RCC has suffered a major blow, gobwinknob is as strong as ever... that massive battle resulted in pretty much no real losses for them as the pliers were able to pick them right back up... only loss would be the city (which will be rebuilt thanks to the money they just found, but that was no thanks to the pliers)... the dwagons are a bit more questionable as the sheer number of units wanda brought back might make up for the loss of dwagons... it sounds pretty game breaking to me

granted, that's all if what wanda is doing is Decypting... what i'm kinda hoping is that she is just pulling an enhance form of her rasie... creating an army of uncroaked as she did before, but thanks to the pliers they will have higher strength and last many more turns... they have no cost(i presume), but they will still decay eventually and need to be replaced... this would make the pliers powerful, but not horribly game breaking

with the uncroaked, the limitations are clear... uncroaked strength, and how long they "live" depends on how much time you spend raising it... you try to raise an entire army, and you end up with an army of very weak units that will be finished for good in a few turns... raise only a few units and you will get strong units at no cost, but they will die eventually...



True on both counts. But... when Wanda uncroaked the legions of Coalition warriors (the Trioxin spell), the grunts all changed from having a radish motif to a hamster motif.

We'll have to wait and see, anyway.

Yes but that could have been a choice on Parson's part... as we saw the jetstones rising up they were still in their yellow colors... just as the Knights were able to dawn KISS gear on command, Parson may have done the same with the uncroaked... but instead made them to wear his colors... the armor itself could just pop as ordered in this case

Demonicbunny
2009-05-03, 03:03 AM
The various tools seem pretty well balanced against each other.

The whole "decrypted" effect once in use seems slightly more powerful than the arkenhammers ability to summon dwagons. However, the only reason that the Arkenpliers are so powerful right now is that before they could use it they had to defeat a level 10 warlord and his entire army.

That is.
Arkenhammer&Arkendish makes you powerful, even if you had nothing before.
With the arkenpliers you have to be powerful to become even more powerful.

It's a classic case of "powerful artifact that makes its merry way around the factions as you need to risk it to use it, it's potentially really powerful and before you achieve an unstoppable horde you have to achieve a critical mass"
And of course possessing it will make EVERYONE turn against you, both because they desire its power and because they know that leaving you alone is certain defeat.

ishnar
2009-05-03, 03:54 AM
I think we should keep in mind that Wanda did NOT just res the entire coalition army. Just the units in the same hex. The "dirtamancy trap" affected multiple hexes and Ansom's army was spread out over at least 3 different hexs.

Considering that most games don't allow movement after the use of a special power and I think ERF does not either, then we are only dealing with the forces that breached the walls.

azukar8
2009-05-03, 05:16 AM
Re: the Arkenhammer-is-underpowered-vs-Arkenpliers debate, "Clarity of purpose" is the Arkenhammer's stated weakness. It might have additional powers.

If the Arkenhammer could tame (summon, recruit, command) dwagons, and had a bonus when fighting dwagons high enough to croak them in one hit, then it would be a close analogue of the Arkenpliers, for example.

Arssanguinus
2009-05-03, 06:11 AM
Charlie and Wanda are attuned to theirs. . . .

Stanley is not. Doesn't that make a difference?

Also, Stanley isn't a caster. perhaps an appropriate caster weilding the Hammer would ALSO have an OMFG! Power.

T-O-E
2009-05-03, 06:31 AM
Charlie and Wanda are attuned to theirs. . . .

Stanley is not. Doesn't that make a difference?


WHAT. How is he not attuned to it?

Demonicbunny
2009-05-03, 07:44 AM
Stanley is DEFINITELY attuned to the Arkenhammer.

And IMHO the Arkenhammer is pretty much pwn as it is.
It summons/tames/commands dwagons (the only units we've seen being able to stand up to a dwagon one on one are Archons and high level warlords) and freaking shoots lightning.

IMHO the Arkenhammer is different from the Arkenpliers/Arkendish, but pretty much on the same level of power.
I'm willing to bet that those dwagons have WAY lower upkeep costs than they would have in any other army (if dwagons are even available without the arkenhammer).

charles
2009-05-03, 08:06 AM
Like the pliers, the hammer can be used as a weapon in combat but it evidently has a further purpose than that.

We've seen the hammer change walnuts into birds and birds into walnuts (although if Bogrol's pie is any indication, it might be only temporary). While Stanley is attuned to his pliers he doesn't seem to be fully aware of it's powers yet (he could only do it now-and-then). Just as Wanda can use her pliers to resurrect the dead into some new kind of unit, maybe the pliers are capable of changing units in some other, unknown way.

It seems to suggest that the Titans tools give them the ability to break the rules and possibly reshape Erfworld so something better.

Parson now has a vast treasury and a large army of nearly every known unit type, that doesn't require upkeep to be paid.

SteveD
2009-05-03, 05:44 PM
I like to think the reason there is no upkeep is because the uncrypted units draw sustenance from the pliers itself. This should mean there’s a hard limit on how many units can be uncryted at once.

Not necessarily. We don't know there is any limit to the power the Pliers can draw on.

I have a slightly different idea. Uncroaked units either have no upkeep or little upkeep (Stanley joked 'it does make em cheap to feed'), thus decay. Decrypted units have no upkeep but don't decay, so the units must be sustained through the Pliers.

But this links Decrypyed units to the pliers and Wanda in a manner that standard uncroaked aren't. I'd presume that if a croakmancer was killed in battle then it would have no effect on units they'd uncroaked. But if Wanda was Croaked/incapacitated/lost the pliers, what would happen then?

It would be a pritty damm big weakness if your entire Decrypted army could be destroyed by croaking one unit.

raphfrk
2009-05-03, 07:15 PM
No there is a sharp difference between Wanda's certainty over Jillian and wanda's certainty over the decrypted...

Wanda's certainty over Jillian was based on what she THOUGHT she knew about Jillian


Also, she was commenting on a Thinkamancy spell. Decrypting is a Croakamancy spell and thus in her field of expertise.



I find that unlikely... 0 upkeep more than likely means that the unit does not require food. More than likely, uncroaked probably have 0 upkeep as well... Waht Parson and Wanda are observing from Ansom is that he is some kind of cross between a living unit and an uncroaked... he does not need to eat like the uncroak, but he does not Decay either

I wonder if Ansom will get weaker without food, even if he doesn't technically decay. Maybe he can eat, but won't die if he doesn't.

Moriarty
2009-05-04, 01:10 AM
Topic pretty much says it all, although it's been discussed in other threads, I kind of thought it deserved it's own. So, to summarize:

Wanda has "Decrypted" Ansom, he retains his status as a level 10 warlord. He no longer has an upkeep, and seems to be completely loyal to parson's side.

Possible downsides noted so far:

He might no longer be able to get experience/gain levels.

Wanda might be exagerating the never decay part.

This is more than likely his "Last life", she won't be able to decrypt him if he falls again.

He could simply be faking loyalty.

Any you can think of, post 'em here!


none of these are hinted in the comic yet.
you might als claim he wil explode when in contact with potatoes, just because we don't see any weakness in his first appearence doesn't mean hes perfect.

Aquillion
2009-05-04, 02:04 AM
Topic pretty much says it all, although it's been discussed in other threads, I kind of thought it deserved it's own. So, to summarize:

Wanda has "Decrypted" Ansom, he retains his status as a level 10 warlord. He no longer has an upkeep, and seems to be completely loyal to parson's side.

Possible downsides noted so far:

He might no longer be able to get experience/gain levels.

Wanda might be exagerating the never decay part.

This is more than likely his "Last life", she won't be able to decrypt him if he falls again.

He could simply be faking loyalty.

Any you can think of, post 'em here!There's no reason to think that he has a downside. Archons and Dwagons have both been shown to be pretty much game-breaking units (Dwagons were the only reason Stanley's side was a threat, really, and Archons... we all know about Archons.) There's no reason why the third Arkentool's unique unit wouldn't be similarly game-breaking.

Arkaim
2009-05-04, 02:09 AM
There's no reason to think that he has a downside. Archons and Dwagons have both been shown to be pretty much game-breaking units (Dwagons were the only reason Stanley's side was a threat, really, and Archons... we all know about Archons.) There's no reason why the third Arkentool's unique unit wouldn't be similarly game-breaking.
It was so good to see them burn. To see them all burn. A true archon holocaust.

BLANDCorporatio
2009-05-04, 04:00 AM
It was so good to see them burn. To see them all burn. A true archon holocaust.

Have a nice cup of warm bromide milk. The nice men in white coats will arrive shortly.

paddyfool
2009-05-04, 04:34 AM
It was so good to see them burn. To see them all burn. A true archon holocaust.


And yet, I'm still curious in seeing whether they'll be Decrypted.

Killer Angel
2009-05-04, 09:12 AM
I'd presume that if a croakmancer was killed in battle then it would have no effect on units they'd uncroaked. But if Wanda was Croaked/incapacitated/lost the pliers, what would happen then?

It would be a pritty damm big weakness if your entire Decrypted army could be destroyed by croaking one unit.

When Wanda was incapacitated, the uncroaked units of GK were still able to act.
But following your reasoning, i don't think that killing Wanda would destroy a Decrypted army; on the other side, taking control of the Arkenpliers, could means that you also gain control over the Decrypted units...

raphfrk
2009-05-04, 09:33 AM
When Wanda was incapacitated, the uncroaked units of GK were still able to act.
But following your reasoning, i don't think that killing Wanda would destroy a Decrypted army; on the other side, taking control of the Arkenpliers, could means that you also gain control over the Decrypted units...

Stanley is said to 'tame' the dwagons. If he lost the hammer, it wouldn't be unreasonable that the dwagons either de-pop, switch sides, or maybe go wild and attack units inside the hex at random.

By the same logic, the pliers might also be required to maintain control of decrypted units. If their loyalty is automatically to the side that holds the pliers, loss of the pliers also means that suddenly your uber army switches sides.

It looks like the Archons are more powerful on a 1 to 1 basis than the dwagons. This means that the dish gives Charlie a stronger special unit and also enhanced Thinkamancy. Ofc, it depends on the relative cost to pop. Archons might be much more expensive than dwagons to build.

On the strength thing, is Ansom more powerful than a dwagon ? We do see Vinny soloing a dwagon over the lake, but that was a wounded one.

Ofc, it appears the pliers can be used with the mass-raise spell.

drachefly
2009-05-04, 10:17 AM
Why do people keep saying that the Archons are 1-on-1 more powerful than dwagons? They had a good start against severely wounded dwagons in the one instance we observed them to actually fight.

Jillian and Webinar wanted to bring an unspecified number of them to fight Stanley at the pass, along with a fair supply of support; and they had intended to bring far more of that support than that modest supply they ended up with.

I see no evidence that Archons are not utility units with a decent long-ranged attack spell in their repertoire; and Dwagons heavy fliers who can keep dishing for considerably longer, and take far more punishment.

LurkerInPlayground
2009-05-04, 03:02 PM
So totally overturning conservation of matter (and creating life), taming some of the best units in the game and allowing you to one hit a chief warlord who has to be around level ten (He wiped the floor with Jillian, who's a nine), and about fourty heavies is bad now? And it lets him fly, don't forget that.
No it doesn't. Jack made it look like he could fly. What really happened was that Jack and Stanley stood up on the dwagon's back while Jack made Stanley raise the hammer up in the air. Jack makes dwagon appear to die, simultaneously veils the dwagon, then veils both Jack and Stanley shortly thereafter.

So when Jill says that Jack was really good at distractions, this is what she's talking about.

And I just realized their names were Jack and Jill . . .

BLANDCorporatio
2009-05-04, 03:48 PM
No it doesn't. Jack made it look like he could fly. What really happened was that Jack and Stanley stood up on the dwagon's back while Jack made Stanley raise the hammer up in the air. Jack makes dwagon appear to die, simultaneously veils the dwagon, then veils both Jack and Stanley shortly thereafter.

So when Jill says that Jack was really good at distractions, this is what she's talking about.

And I just realized their names were Jack and Jill . . .

You are wrong (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F031.jpg).

Killer Angel
2009-05-07, 07:56 AM
You are wrong (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F031.jpg).

Yes, the hammer lets Stanley fly, but he can't go too far with it (at least, this was Winnie's opinion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0127.html))
Thinking in D&D terms, it's probably like a Tenser floating disk, in regards to a Fly spell

Renx
2009-05-09, 05:11 PM
I'm guessing the decrypted troops last only as long as Wanda is attuned to the Arkenpliers, or a few turns after they leave the hex where she is.

Dark Matter
2009-05-09, 10:22 PM
I'm guessing the decrypted troops last only as long as Wanda is attuned to the Arkenpliers, or a few turns after they leave the hex where she is.The claim is they don't decay. For that matter, as far as we could tell killing Wanda wouldn't have done anything to her uncroked.

Further, that red hase that serves as the pliers "I'm doing magic" thing totally goes away. Nor has anyone mentioned that units die without their summoning tools. Nor do the Dragons or Archons appear to have to stay close to their summoning tools.

Loyalty is different. We've heard how the dragons will stay loyal to Stanly as long as he has the hammer.

Finwe
2009-05-09, 10:34 PM
There's no reason to assume that a unit can be decrypted twice, i.e. if a decrypted unit is killed, it may be that the unit can't be re-decrypted.. That would take the pliers less gamebreaking, but still incredibly powerful.

ishnar
2009-05-10, 12:05 AM
I'm guessing the decrypted troops last only as long as Wanda is attuned to the Arkenpliers, or a few turns after they leave the hex where she is.

Considering that Uncroaked troops were fighting in other hexes and decrypting is more powerful, I doubt they have to be in the same hex.

MCerberus
2009-05-10, 03:48 AM
Regarding Unsom's lack of hamsters - he's a warlord. He gets his own design. Each previous uncroaked warlord still had their own (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0027.html)...