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Toxic Avenger
2006-08-11, 02:46 AM
EDIT: If you have nothing but sarcastic remarks to offer, please don't offer them. Thank you.

Intuitive Learner [General]
You aren't the sharpest knife in the drawer, so you have learned to use your intuition to acquire new skills.
Prerequisites: Int 8+ Int 10+, Wisdom 13+.

When determining bonus skill points gained at each level, you use your Wisdom modifier in lieu of your Intelligence modifier. However, these extra skill points may not be used to gain ranks in any Intelligence based skill. Your class skill points may still be spent as normal.

In addition, if your Intelligence Modifier is negative, you must still apply that modifier to your class based skill points. EDIT: Removed, as it is redundant now.

Example: Dipstick the Half-Orc Barbarian has ability scores of 8 for Intelligence, and 16 for Wisdom. If he gains a new level as a Barbarian, he will earn 3 skill points (4 from the new Barbarian level minus 1 from his Intelligence) that may be used as normal, and he will gain 3 skill points that may not be used for Intelligence based skills. EDIT: Removed, as it is redundant now.

TheOOB
2006-08-11, 03:41 AM
I think it's a little too complex. I'd change it so when you level up you may use your wis mod instead of your int mod to determine the amount of skill points gained.

I would, however, put a level prerequisite on it, something about level 4 or so, simply so Int still matters, especially for that x4 skill points at first level.

BelkarsDagger
2006-08-11, 03:43 AM
I can see Clerics abusing this. Is it only for one level, or do you have the choice for all levels from then on?

tgva8889
2006-08-11, 03:45 PM
That seems really, really good. There's no way someone wouldn't figure out a way to abuse that to get tons of skills (My monk doesn't need intelligence anymore! Mwahaha! Neither does my druid! Mwahaha! And now my clerics can be intelligence-free! MWAHAHA!!). At least it's balanced out slightly. Maybe if you made it so that they can only use the skill points to get Wisdom-based skills, then that's ok.

Toxic Avenger
2006-08-11, 07:21 PM
I'll address the first three comments in the order in which they were received...as well as in order from the most helpful to the least...


I think it's a little too complex. I'd change it so when you level up you may use your wis mod instead of your int mod to determine the amount of skill points gained.

I would, however, put a level prerequisite on it, something about level 4 or so, simply so Int still matters, especially for that x4 skill points at first level.Using Wisdom to figure skill points with no balancing factors sounded way too powerful to me. That's why I added the condition of only spending the extra points on non-Intelligence skills. And it sounds more logical to me anyway, as I will explain further down in this post.

Your suggestion about the level requirement sounds like it may be reasonable, and I will consider it. But I would specify 3rd or 6th level, rather than 4th. If it were 4th level, you might as well call it 6th, yes? It is a general feat, not a fighter feat.

TheOOB, thanks for the advice; it was both helpful and thoughtful. I really mean that, no sarcasm is intended here.

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I can see Clerics abusing this. Is it only for one level, or do you have the choice for all levels from then on?Yes, I can see clerics abusing it, in addition to fighters, rogues, barbarians, sorcerors, monks, druids, bards, or any other class under the sun...except wizards, of course. Just like I can see sorcerors/monks abusing Ascetic Monk...or Class A abusing Feat B...or Class X abusing Feat Y......

To answer your question...Yes, it is intended to be at every level from then on, otherwise it would likely be worse than the feat (I can't remember the name right now) which gives 5 skill points flat out. Skill points that may be used without restriction, I might add. Feats are supposed to give an advantage of some sort, after all. You have to spend a feat slot to get that advantage.

Oskar, I thank you for not offering an unnecessarily sarcastic remark. For example...

(My monk doesn't need intelligence anymore! Mwahaha! Neither does my druid! Mwahaha! And now my clerics can be intelligence-free! MWAHAHA!!).You started with the sarcasm, so I'll lay it on as well...

Ha ha ha, very droll... ::) I'm falling off of my chair here! ROFL [/sarcasm]

60 percent of a cleric's class skills are based on Intelligence. If clerics dump their Intelligence score, they won't be able to gain many ranks in Intelligence based skills, and they will have poor Intelligence modifiers to boot, adding up to very poor skill modifiers. Dumping a cleric's Intelligence score will hurt him/her. (poor skill modifiers in Spellcraft, Knowledge(Religion), Knowledge(Arcana), Craft...that's quite a painful hit.)

Like all things, it's a trade off. And besides, it's not like a wizard has any need for Wisdom...or Charisma...or Strength...


At least it's balanced out slightly. Maybe if you made it so that they can only use the skill points to get Wisdom-based skills, then that's ok.Saying that the skill points may only be used for Wisdom based skills is way too much nerfing, IMNSHO.
Take Concentration for example...in the real world, the ability to concentrate is largely based on willpower (Wisdom, in the D&D world). So you wouldn't allow Wisdom based skill points to be spent on Concentration? I suppose, if it's your campaign...

There are many skills that can be learned intuitively, rather than by memorization and logic. Physical skills, social skills, auditory skills, perceptual skills...but not knowledge skills, those typically require rote memorization (Intelligence, in other words). That is why I added the condition stating that the Wisdom based points may not be used for such skills. You have failed to convince me why I should change that.

I'll bump the minimum Intelligence requirement up to 10, if that makes you happy. In fact, I'm doing it anyway, it will lessen the complexity of the feat.

*edits opening post*

*****************************

May I please have some more helpful advice, without the funny sarcastic remarks? (they will be returned in kind, I guarantee that ;) ) I may have a heart attack from laughing too much if I read another one.

Fax Celestis
2006-08-11, 07:27 PM
Are these additional skill points, or replacement skill points?

Toxic Avenger
2006-08-11, 07:30 PM
Most definitely replacement skill points. *Additional skill points would be unthinkable.

I'll point it out, it was mixed in with the mess:


...you use your Wisdom modifier in lieu of your Intelligence modifier.

EDIT: My avatar tends to be a distraction as well.

tgva8889
2006-08-11, 08:08 PM
Perhaps if you limited it to certian skills (like, not cross-class skills most definately, and probably not certain skills you can't do untrained) then that would work much better. Still seems quite good.

And I could argue that Wizards need some Wisdom. Oops, missed my save. They also need some strength to help carry out that loot/carry all their magic items. And I could argue against clerics really NEEDING Knowledge (Arcana) and/or Knowledge (Religion), but I really don't care enough. In all truth, dumping almost any score hurts the cleric slightly. Same with a monk (though not really Charisma...). Druids are what make this feat more than just good. Because now, they really only need one good stat (like they didn't before, really...they just need intelligence even less).

Toxic Avenger
2006-08-12, 09:56 AM
First, I would like to say: Thank you for holding back on the sarcasm, I shall return the favor. Although your passive-aggressiveness is grating...


Now to address a couple of your points:

I have already limited it to certain skills. Knowledge and Craft skills are counted individually, so Intelligence skills comprise almost half of all skills.

And claiming that a feat needs to be nerfed further just because a certain character class is broken does not wash with me.


I think this is the thread you are looking for:

Power of Clerics and Druids (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1155004154 )