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View Full Version : [3.5] Attack penalty, schmattack schmenalty



Chronos
2009-05-05, 10:01 PM
Many things in 3rd edition allow you to make a tradeoff of a penalty to your attack roll in exchange for something else: Power Attack gets you extra damage, Expertise gets you extra AC, wielding two weapons gets you more attacks, etc. But no matter how bad your attack roll gets, you always hit (and in fact, threaten a crit) on a natural 20. So it occurred to me, what if you made a character who used all of those to their max and hit only on a 20, but made that hit so good that it was worth it? Say, two-weapon fighting with blessed heavy picks, while fighting defensively and using Combat Expertise, Power Attack, and Stone Power to the max. That's enough to give you an average of one hit every four rounds, at high levels, and that one hit deals perhaps a hundred damage, while meanwhile you have +7 to AC and 10 temporary HP refreshing every round.

Or we can take it further: Toss in a source of Sneak Attack and take Telling Blow and Craven, and we can add another 80+ damage to every hit. A level of Monk and a feat to make picks count as monk weapons (I'm pretty sure there's one out there somewhere), and we can make another attack every round. The Collision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#collision) weapon enhancement will translate to 20 extra damage per hit. Improved Combat Expertise, from Complete Warrior, will let us use our full BAB for defense, meaning up to a +22 bonus to AC.

What else could one do with this idea?

Frosty
2009-05-05, 10:40 PM
Bad idea because combat usually ENDS or is decided within 4 rounds. While you swing at air, the enemy spellcaster has chain-Avasculated your party into oblivion.

Teron
2009-05-05, 10:45 PM
You might hit with one in every twenty attacks, but you'll only get a critical hit once in 400. Unless you have some way to automatically confirm crits (which I think might be possible, but I can't think of a source off the top of my head), anything that relies on them is basically worthless.

Eldariel
2009-05-05, 10:49 PM
Some character builds gain such abilities as a random side effect of their normal progression. Basically anyone with Improved Expertise can decide "I won't be hit and I won't hit" turning any melee fight into Battle of 20s. Of course, the problem is that this guy is investing his BAB into AC while the opponent is free to PA for full and get a vastly higher expected damage if he does hit.

But yeah, I wouldn't make this the focus of a character mostly because it's very rarely practical. Your Average Dervish pretty much automatically packs this kinds of abilities though, with a ton of attacks, Combat Expertise & Elaborate Parry. If need be, he can dump his attack for AC. I've done that exactly once (and it saved us in that fight; it was against a Divine Companion Sorcerer Gish, who thankfully couldn't hit me reliably even with Arcane Strike and didn't happen to know True Strike) when I played a Dervish through a campaign, and it was exceedingly useful then.


But yeah, I don't think it's something you want to focus the character on, but nothing wrong with an additional option. And yeah, the best user is someone who can do a lot of highly damaging attacks for a long time, preferably while healing constantly or something. Also, Elusive Target could be really, really hot to negate much of the likely damage from the opponent. One just has to remember, this is strictly an anti-melee/ray tactic; it's not really useful outside fighting a melee-type with a melee-type.

EDIT: Oh yeah, the build needs Robilar's Gambit. Make up for those -4 AC somehow and you just doubled your attacks. Add Double Hit and...yeah.

TheCountAlucard
2009-05-05, 10:51 PM
...which I think might be possible, but I can't think of a source off the top of my head...Ultimate Fighter springs to mind.

Teron
2009-05-05, 10:59 PM
Some character builds gain such abilities as a random side effect of their normal progression. Basically anyone with Improved Expertise can decide "I won't be hit and I won't hit" turning any melee fight into Battle of 20s. Of course, the problem is that this guy is investing his BAB into AC while the opponent is free to PA for full and get a vastly higher expected damage if he does hit.
There's nothing stopping you from taking a penalty equal to your BAB for both Improved Combat Expertise and Power Attack. BAB isn't a resource you have to split between those options, it just sets the limit for each of them.

This is kind of interesting as a theoretical exercise, if nothing else. Can anyone think of a way to bypass the critical threat confirmation issue I mentioned?

tyckspoon
2009-05-05, 11:02 PM
The blessed weapon property causes your weapons to be effectively always under the effect of Bless Weapon, which auto-confirms threats against evil opponents. This would go with the same enemy demographic that makes Holy worthwhile, in which a heavy majority of things you have to kill are Evil. There's also a few Ranger spells in the Spell Compendium that have similar effects, and you could try to get ahold of Surge of Fortune; wait for an actual 20 to come up, and then discharge the spell to treat your confirmation roll as another 20.

monty
2009-05-05, 11:02 PM
This is kind of interesting as a theoretical exercise, if nothing else. Can anyone think of a way to bypass the critical threat confirmation issue I mentioned?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blessWeapon.htm

Anyway, if you could get a few dozen natural attacks and Rapidstrike, or something like that, this could be a pretty decent concept.

Teron
2009-05-05, 11:09 PM
There are probably more reliable options, but I suppose bless weapon would work.

What's Ultimate Fighter?

TheCountAlucard
2009-05-05, 11:21 PM
What's Ultimate Fighter?There ya go. (http://www.liquidmateria.info/wiki/Ultimate_Fighter) :smallsmile: Would require DM approval, of course.

Chronos
2009-05-06, 12:14 AM
You'll note that I've already included Blessed weapons in the OP, for the auto-confirm on crits (versus evil opponents only, but most enemies in most campaigns are evil). The only downside is that it can't be combined with other crit-based weapon properties.

Dacia Brabant
2009-05-06, 12:21 AM
Shield Specialization + Active Shield Defense + (Improved) Combat Expertise + Combat Reflexes + Robilar's Gambit = the penalty to hit while fighting defensively is negated on Attacks of Opportunity, which you should be making a lot of (especially if you do this as a Crusader, since I guess you're also getting Stone Power), so that's one way to improve your to-hit chances under certain conditions.

It's real feat-intensive though, and you have to use a shield and I guess you're dual-wielding, but if your off-hand weapon is a Light Spiked Steel Shield of Bashing it could still work.

sonofzeal
2009-05-06, 12:22 AM
A decent build actually, presuming you can optimize for number of attacks effectively. TWF/MWF is superior to natural attacks in this context for the extra iteratives, since the high penalties don't bother you. Tri-keen or Sahuagin for extra arms, plus all normal arm-boosting options. Desert Wind and Tiger Claw maneuvers would help too. There's a lot of ways to gain extra attacks while giving everything a -2 for the round, which you don't really care about. Push it far enough, and it could be quite workable.

Teron
2009-05-06, 12:36 AM
You'll note that I've already included Blessed weapons in the OP, for the auto-confirm on crits (versus evil opponents only, but most enemies in most campaigns are evil). The only downside is that it can't be combined with other crit-based weapon properties.
Ah, so you did. I'm not sure how I missed that.

Talic
2009-05-06, 12:47 AM
Well, hmm. Dervish is one idea.

Others include the Kensai (increasing crit multipliers in a manner that's NOT a weapon property. Hello x5 crit weapons!)...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-06, 12:48 AM
The other advantage to this build is the abusable Exotic weapons. After all, it's not like you care about -4.

Fishy
2009-05-06, 01:58 AM
Warshaper is the old standby for getting a few dozen attacks by becoming tentacle-icious, but they won't have the blessed property unless you shell out for the world's most expensive Necklace of Natural Attacks.

Frosty
2009-05-06, 02:01 AM
Now, while you flail away ineffectively, what's to stop the opponent from ignoring you and going after the squishies (who are actual threats)?

Fishy
2009-05-06, 02:34 AM
A bunch of Knight levels?

Frosty
2009-05-06, 02:37 AM
The proposed build prevents 20 levels of Knight. Also, way too MAD. Needs 13 in like all the stats.

Kaiyanwang
2009-05-06, 03:21 AM
Be careful of opposite attack rolls like disarm and sunder. I'm a big fan combat expertise but not all the time.

Maybe you need some spell (like the one increasing hardness), augmenting crystal, feat (like Stalwart) or mundane equipment (obdurium, chained gauntlet) increasing the hardness of your weapons and/or the chance of not be disarmed or have your weapon sundered.

Chronos
2009-05-06, 07:27 PM
Quoth Talic:
Others include the Kensai (increasing crit multipliers in a manner that's NOT a weapon property. Hello x5 crit weapons!)...Kensai is the one that lets you enchant your signature weapon for an XP cost... Are you thinking of some other PrC? The only one I can think of that increases multiplier is Master Thrower.

Kaiyanwang, good point about opposed attack rolls. Sunder one might be able to deal with via making the weapons adamantine or otherwise really tough, but I can't think of a good answer to disarm (locking gauntlets probably won't be enough, since we're probably looking at a total attack bonus of -30 or worse).

TheCountAlucard
2009-05-06, 07:54 PM
I can't think of a good answer to disarm (locking gauntlets probably won't be enough, since we're probably looking at a total attack bonus of -30 or worse).Play a Maug from Fiend Folio. Not only are they large (which is always nice for a melee character anyway...) and possess a high Strength (again, a plus), you can also get the "Locking Hand" Maug grafts built in, that act as locked gauntlets that stack with each other and stack with ordinary locked gauntlets. The Locking Hands "can be locked and unlocked as easily as a creature can make a fist." Not to mention, you're a giant stone mercenary; c'mon, that's pretty sweet. :smallcool:

The only problem with Maug? You're a Construct with 2 racial Hit Dice and a +3 Level Adjustment.

sonofzeal
2009-05-06, 08:07 PM
Quoth Talic:Kensai is the one that lets you enchant your signature weapon for an XP cost... Are you thinking of some other PrC? The only one I can think of that increases multiplier is Master Thrower.
I think he's referring to Psionic Weapons Master.

Kaiyanwang
2009-05-07, 08:13 AM
Kaiyanwang, good point about opposed attack rolls. Sunder one might be able to deal with via making the weapons adamantine or otherwise really tough, but I can't think of a good answer to disarm (locking gauntlets probably won't be enough, since we're probably looking at a total attack bonus of -30 or worse).

Crystal of security, Magic item compendium. The greater brings on the table a +10 against disarm attempts.

I found stalwart: i was wrong, is +4 against bull rush and trip. Anyway, combat focus feats (PHII) can come in help. With combat stability you can reach another +8 against disarm grapple and other things. You need 2 more feats for this and wis 13+. Can you play with MADness?

If you go fighter or warblade, you can take (Fighter 18, Warblade 21?) Weapon supremacy it's another +4.

Finally, in Dragon Magazine 359 there is a way for a non magical modification of any sword to improve the rolls against disarm (+4)

If the sword is a cutlass, has a base +2.

Cristal + supremacy + combat focus + uber-masterwork cutlass + locket gauntlet it's... +38. Plus +4 of WS prereqs, + 42.

Xenogears
2009-05-07, 08:35 AM
Play a Maug from Fiend Folio. Not only are they large (which is always nice for a melee character anyway...) and possess a high Strength (again, a plus), you can also get the "Locking Hand" Maug grafts built in, that act as locked gauntlets that stack with each other and stack with ordinary locked gauntlets. The Locking Hands "can be locked and unlocked as easily as a creature can make a fist." Not to mention, you're a giant stone mercenary; c'mon, that's pretty sweet. :smallcool:

The only problem with Maug? You're a Construct with 2 racial Hit Dice and a +3 Level Adjustment.

I'm pretts sure you can get locking hands even if your not a maug (if you can convince a maug or a fleshwarper with maug grafts to do it). I'm fairly certain I actually asked on this site if maug grafts could be applied to not-constructs.

Heliomance
2009-05-07, 10:14 AM
I think he's referring to Psionic Weapons Master.

Actually, pretty sure he's referring to the Kensai from Oriental Adventures, not the one from CW. It's functionally identical to the Psionic Weapons Master though.

Another_Poet
2009-05-07, 02:09 PM
Chronos, although I think the build would get boring for a PC, it would make a great enemy NPC to vex the players. Why won't this guy drop? He's such a low-level scrub he can't even hit----AAAAUUUUGGGGGHHHHH!

Animefunkmaster
2009-05-07, 03:01 PM
Lots of dancing vorpal weapons? I would try the amunition game (after all what is another -4 when rolling for crits) but the dm might find it far too cheesy. I can see an artificer pulling this off at 20 (possibly with crafting shinanigans). Have at least 400 of those buggers around you (did someone just say quick draw) and for 4 rounds you should statistically be able to down at least one foe, that isn't immune to vorpal, per turn.

Or if your just rolling to hit, wounding can be a destroyer of a weapon enhancement for not that much cost (considering its 1 con per hit).

Gah, almost forgot. Braid blades. Cheese in your hair. Each one gives you an extra attack and are slashing weapons iirc!

Chronos
2009-05-08, 04:19 PM
The problem with vorpals is you still need to confirm the crit, and 400 vorpal weapons would get very expensive, even for an Artificer.

Braid blade is a good catch, especially since it's apparently a X3 crit. Is there any explicit limit on how many of them you can wear, or is it just assumed that the DM is supposed to limit you to one?

Oh, and does Disarm against a person with multiple weapons get rid of just one of them, or all? We might be able to just win a war of attrition against a disarmer, if using enough weapons.