OOTS #651 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Omegonthesane]

I get the feeling that the Monster in the Darkness might actually help V defeat Xykon, rather than the other way round. Love how they're comparing GO to his situation.

More to the point, nothing went wrong with V's Epic Teleport. Is Cloister dispelled now?

[Selene]

O'Chul! Yay! :smallbiggrin:

[X2]

Nice shots in this one.

[Berserk Monk]

Nice character development for monster-san. I liked how he talked about his origin even if it's still complete vague.

Another thing: I was watching Dr. Horrible's sing-a-long blog when I decided to check the oots and I was up to the brand new day song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRUjKJe2IFw&feature=related). Weird; that song kind of goes with the comic (at least in my opinion).

[Akisa]

wait I'm on the first page? Anyway no the cloister spell did not break she just used an epic spell to circumvent protection.

[tigerhawkvok]

Nicely done Giant! Here's hoping V doesn't end up dying from this ....

[turkishproverb]

The "Magical" fruit. TeeHee.

[TheCountAlucard]

Wow, been a while since I've been on one of the Discussion threads...

I really rather like how the comic's been going. Need I say more? :smallcool:

[Edhelras]

Wow! I just realized I have to sign on to the O-Chul fan club.

Now, if he manages to win MotD over to the Good side, or at least avert him from the Evil side, that's a major accomplishment. And an interesting contribution to the debate on whether non-Bards-non-Rogues should get the social skills as class skills as well. It seems that he might convince MotD just by applying his CHA bonus, some cross-class ranks in Diplomacy and Sense Motive, and his own stalwartness. Impressive! (NON THE LESS!)

[Ganurath]

A very interesting page. Monster-san describes his homeland as being a Warm Forest environment, possibly Warm Swamp, and being raised primarily by his father. Major clues on both fronts! Perhaps a halfbreed of some kind? If a Warm Swamp is his homeland, it could mean half black dragon. On the other hand, his father's behavior sounds like that of the Temperate Forest dwelling Green Dragon.

Also, never underestimate the power of beans.

[Shott]

Well this has potential...

Nice to see more O-Chul wisdom as well.

[dancrilis]

And so begins a flashback to how V acquired the beans.

Also this could backfire on O'Chul, charisma is his dump stat, which could lead to an intelligent thoughtful MITD still on the side of Xykon.

[JonahFalcon]

This is where V gets a major smackdown.

Something having to do with the defected subcontractor, I'm sure.

[Malanthyus]

I think he's a half tarrasque, but that's just me.

Also, Re: V vs X, IT'S ON!!!

[Hatchet]

Nice strip! The hints about the MitD remembering it's dad as big with a big appetite will definitely stirr up the "it's a little tarrasque!!" theories. That would be so cute.

Still, I hope the Monster doesn't let itself get swayed by O-Chul. I mean sure, it isn't as cruel as Xykon, but it is still Evil. Sure, it doesn't eat babies, but it looked positively forward to eating the Order of the Stick.

Well, I'm keeping my fingers crossed hoping that at least now it gets to devour one of them.

[kpenguin]

Wow! I just realized I have to sign on to the O-Chul fan club.

Now, if he manages to win MotD over to the Good side, or at least avert him from the Evil side, that's a major accomplishment. And an interesting contribution to the debate on whether non-Bards-non-Rogues should get the social skills as class skills as well. It seems that he might convince MotD just by applying his CHA bonus, some cross-class ranks in Diplomacy and Sense Motive, and his own stalwartness. Impressive!

O-Chul dumped Charisma, remember? However, diplomacy and sense motive are both class skills on the Paladin class skills list.

[Aethir]

Okay, V pierced Cloister easily enough, now all that needs to be done is take down Xykon and Redcloak at the same time while not killing off O-chul because the MitD wouldn't like that, and we know that he's probably got something uber just waiting to come out. Should be cake.

[pasko77]

I like very much the Go metaphore.
I wonder if mr. Burlew can play Go, and how well.

[CompositeSanta]

MitD should spend his next move to put a stone next to ochul's bottom stone in the leftmost column. He could take out a large bit of Ochul's territory that way.

[shadzar]

Did O'Chul even teach :mitd: how to atari or to count his territory?

You would have better luck trying to teach him Shogi!

Ok, haven't finished this strip yet, and was thrown trying to evaluate the Go board and unwind the plays they have made.

[BossMuro]

Just to cap off the ongoing theme of "V screws up everything", my money is on Vaarsuvius completely ruining any chance O-Chul had of turning the MitD to his side. And maybe kill O-Chul in the process. And then the Conjurer will escape, leaving V stranded.

[Ted_Stryker]

I wonder how many stones O'Chul spotted the MitD. I count 64 black and 53 white, but we don't see the whole board.

EDIT -- No, wait, we do pretty much see it all in one of the frames. O'Chul's winning handily, I guess, though there's still a bit of room in two of the corners for some action.

[Elemental_Elf]

I wonder if Monster-San is some how related to Snarl...

Also, I can't wait to see how V handles Xykon. Only 3 comics to go!

[lord_khaine]

well i have a suspicion that tMITD and O'chul will end up the reason for why V does not vipe the floor with Xykon.

[JonahFalcon]

well i have a suspicion that tMITD and O'chul will end up the reason for why V does not vipe the floor with Xykon.

No, I'm sure the fact that V has been completely and utterly useless with the power will have something to do with it. Arrogance + ego = downfall.

[teratorn]

wow... I just had some beans (and no I didn't do it, V did).

[Edhelras]

O-Chul dumped Charisma, remember? However, diplomacy and sense motive are both class skills on the Paladin class skills list.


You're right, and I was just soooo wrong. :smallredface: Sorry 'bout that. It shows that I almost never play the pallies myself...

[Wisp Wings]

I have an omminous feeling that tMitD or O-Chul might not survive this battle:smallfrown:

[Lunaya]

...Good luck, V! We're all pulling for ya! *hides behind magic-proof bunker*

[Tass]

Yay! Confirmation that is is go they are playing! And that Rich does know at least something about the game.

Whoohooo.

<- In a very good mood now. (Looking forward to the Danish Chapionship in go this weekend.)

[aka Argent]

Ahhhh... so nice to see the strip returning to its roots and long neglected characters. Demon Roach FTW!

[shadzar]

I wonder how many stones O'Chul spotted the MitD. I count 64 black and 53 white, but we don't see the whole board.

EDIT -- No, wait, we do pretty much see it all in one of the frames. O'Chul's winning handily, I guess, though there's still a bit of room in two of the corners for some action.

:eek: What level dan is O'Chul to give an 11 stones?

[Tass]

:eek: What level dan is O'Chul to give an 11 stones?


To anyone who makes a dango like that in the center? I could give 20.

[Lemarc]

You're right, and I was just soooo wrong. :smallredface: Sorry 'bout that. It shows that I almost never play the pallies myself...
I keep making the same mistake. Charisma used to be their primary attribute, after all.

[Secris]

Another good comic, thanks Rich. I'm going to throw my money in with the "MitD not fighting Xykon/becoming good/whatever" side. It's interesting to see a more "human" side of him, for lack of a better term, but to me he has to be Xkyon's brainless brute of a pet. MitD is to Xykon as Thog is to Nale, but with more secrecy. In fact, I bet Throg and MitD would make great friends, I bet the MitD would love chocolate fudge sundaes.

Anyways, I figure this is as good of a place as any to ask, I don't wanna create a new thread for it. Do the two remaining souls spliced to V lose anything at all if V get's slapped around, severly wounded, or even killed? Aside from no longer having fun wreakin' havoc in the mortal realm once again, of course. Do they feel pain? Can some harm come to their souls? Could Xkyon possibly harness their power and use them as servents even? Obviously Rich makes the rules, but I'd like to see some thoughts on that.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Yes V, where did you get the beans from?

Also is it me (I am not a Go expert) but is Monster-san winning that game?

[shadzar]

To anyone who makes a dango like that in the center? I could give 20.

Ok, with all seriousness O'Chul could just be a kyu since :mitd: isn't even very good at simpler games. He bet all his Monopoly money on O'Chul and the acid breathing shark bit. I am just surprised by :mitd: that he even knows where he cannot place stones. How long have they been playing now?

:smallannoyed: Sad part is :mitd: may be better at Go than me and I play once in a while.


:elan: Hikaru no Go, anime is not just for senseless violence but sometimes helps kids of all ages learn about new things!

[The Wanderer]

I have an omminous feeling that tMitD or O-Chul might not survive this battle:smallfrown:

Yeah, I got a sinking feeling in my stomach as soon as I saw them in this strip.

But as for V vs Team Evil: *cracks neck and knuckles* win, lose or draw, this is going to be epic. :smallcool:

Who wants to bet that V loses, somehow survives, and takes his loss to Team Evil as evidence he needs to do more and further into darkness in order to obtain real ultimate arcane power?

[Psychomancer]

You know, as cool as it would be to see the MitD turn coat, I don't think it's going to happen. People (and creatures) like him are horrifically difficult to move out of their comfort zones, no matter how much reason, impassioned speech, or blows to the head you use. This is not to say that O'chul shouldn't try, but still. MitD is content, if not happy, to follow Xykon and Redcloak around, and won't be shifted from that unless given a really, really good kick in the hypothetical pants.

Anyway, I've always thought Go was a intriguing game, but never learned to play. Guess I'll have to stick to Khet.

[Iranon]

The monster isn't winning. It looks as if O-Chul gave him a head start.

There are different ways of keeping score, but usually you count prisoners + enclosed spaces. The monster appears to have played too conservatively, securing his position instead of staking claims for the remainder of the game.

[shylocxs]

Wow, I missed Team Evil!

[Cracklord]

And so it was that V managed to do more harm then good yet again, by preventing the Monster in the Darkness from seceding to the inevitable and becoming O-Chul's paladin mount.

On the plus side, V is about to get schooled.

[Tass]

Yes V, where did you get the beans from?

Also is it me (I am not a Go expert) but is Monster-san winning that game?

He's deffinitely not.

[SPoD]

:eek: What level dan is O'Chul to give an 11 stones?

I don't pretend to know much, but could not some black stones have been captured and removed from the board already?

Also, I would imagine that O-Chul is "going easy" on the :mitd: here, in order to get the board into the arrangement needed to prove his point. Given a military background, O-Chul may be a "grand master" and simply playing along in order to let the :mitd: learn strategy (and thus to think for itself).

[Estelindis]

O'Chul! Yay! :smallbiggrin:
This sums up my feelings too! The way O-Chul explained the MitD's situation to it was so clear and simple, yet so profound. I just get more and more impressed with this character all the time!

I wonder if V's smokin' because of the anti-teleport defences...

Actually, given V's ambivalence about the Azurites, I don't know that s/he will try to save O-Chul. Two justifiable answers to this doubt: 1) defeating Xykon is more important, 2) V did help the Azurites by teleporting them to the elven island.

[chiasaur11]

Ahhhh... so nice to see the strip returning to its roots and long neglected characters. Demon Roach FTW!

Back to its roots?

I see no cheap one off gags about random DnD rules!

And where is Fruit Pie the Sorcerer? Eh?

[Ted The Bug]

In SoD, Xykon commands MitD to kill Redcloak and spit out the phyl---phil--amulet if Redclock ever betrays him. IMO, that's called a Chekhov's Gun.

[Cleverdan22]

I'm worried that V will attack MitD, thinking him an enemy, despite or before O-chul's protests. Either that, or it will be V, O-chul, and MitD kicking ass, which would be awesome.

[The Bookworm]

Woo-hoo! Things are getting climactic around here!
I think V will lose. And someone will die. Soon.

[Nevitan]

I love seeing MitD and O'chul's conversations, it will almost suck when/if O'chul escapes or is freed because of the conversations drying up.

[Rotipher]

O-Chul dumped Charisma, remember? However, diplomacy and sense motive are both class skills on the Paladin class skills list.

The fact that Monster-san has the Wisdom score of wallpaper might help him influence it too, should a little fast-talk be called for. :smallwink:

[Lupy]

I want to see the look on Xykon's face so badly!

[fishguy]

First time posting ever...

I had to jump in here because I think the examination of the GO game is missing the big tell....

The GO board is a drawing of the MitD... (think 8bit theater)

The two empty spots in the block of black stones are referred to in the strip title... the white semi-circle on the left side... the back-shell of the Tarrasque... long back legs, shorter front legs.... Rich has given us the final hint...

edit: Also the single horn at the top/front of the head

[JeptCloak]

So much for the "Xykon won't be there" and "V will lose the splice on arrival"... not to mention the "V will have to fight his entire army!!!"

[Istari]

^^Weird I was thinking the same thing

[shadzar]

The monster isn't winning. It looks as if O-Chul gave him a head start.

There are different ways of keeping score, but usually you count prisoners + enclosed spaces. The monster appears to have played too conservatively, securing his position instead of staking claims for the remainder of the game.

O'chul probably did design the moves to make the board look just like :mitd: with 2 spots for eyes and the white stones around it to be the box it is currently in, to go along with what he was telling it.

[pyrefiend]

First time posting ever...

I had to jump in here because I think the examination of the GO game is missing the big tell....

The GO board is a drawing of the MitD... (think 8bit theater)

The two empty spots in the block of black stones are referred to in the strip title... the white semi-circle on the left side... the back-shell of the Tarrasque... long back legs, shorter front legs.... Rich has given us the final hint...

edit: Also the single horn at the top/front of the head
Hmmmmm... I'm not seeing it. I doubt that Rich would reveal the identity of the MitD so early in the story and at such a seemingly random time. Especially when he gave a bunch of vague clues in the same strip.

Edit: Wait, does O-Chul recognize V or not? It's kinda hard to tell...

[Zevox]

Well, Xykon's home, so we're definitely going to see a battle. Too bad we have to wait yet another strip to see it start.

Interesting interaction between MitD and O-Chul anyway. Seems O-Chul has been teaching him a lot, if he got the Socrates reference. I am curious, though: how is O-Chul speaking to him so openly if Xykon and Redcloak are right there in the same room as them?? That one makes no sense...

Zevox

[faith]

Persian ambassadore: come monster-san, see reason!!! this is madness!!!
monster-san: madness.... THIS IS....

acctually do we have a name for evil Azure City???

[Morgan Wick]

Interesting "side" perspective on V's arrival, which may or may not be foreshadowing of MitD's involvement in the battle. I still think it would be a little early to go unveiling the MITD now.

[Fermatprime]

Yeah, I feel like I could beat the MitD at Go, and I'm completely terrible at that game. Although I believe there's a teaching version where you count enclosed spaces + stones on board rather than enclosed spaces + stones captured, in which case the giant dango isn't quite as terrible as it seems -- just a waste of moves rather than actively losing points.

Also interesting to note that, indeed, Redcloak is there, as is a hobgoblin (Jirix?) I wonder if V will go for the lower-level goblins first...

[David Argall]

Yes V, where did you get the beans from?

Also is it me (I am not a Go expert) but is Monster-san winning that game?

That depends. Assuming the unseen part of the board is empty, MitD is in danger of being slaughtered. With a couple of moves, O'Chul could form a group in the upper corner that could be worth a hundred points. MitD must invade immediately and can likely do so successfully. If it does, I will leave the analysis to more experienced players.

However, the position is a complete mess that suggests neither player knows much about the game. You just don't leave great masses of territory alone like this.
Note the larger dark spots here. These are the handicap spots, which should be occupied if O'Chul was giving MitD the advantage he should be. Instead they are mostly vacant. Possibly MitD is receiving a mere two stones, but this is not much of a handicap.
The large group of black stones has two eyes, and survives, but it scores a grand total of 2 points. There are a dozen extra stones that merely reduce black territory. While there are a number of ways to reach this position, there is no way to do so without gross stupidity.
I can only guess the Go skill level of our artist. I suspect he just didn't pay much attention to the reasonableness of the position, possibly starting with the shape he wanted to O-Chul's analogy, and then scattered stones in a somewhat Go-like manner.

[Deepkicker]

Wait...so were Xykon and Redcloak standing around in the same room while the Monster and O-Chul were talking? I find that kind of odd.

[shadzar]

I am curious, though: how is O-Chul speaking to him so openly if Xykon and Redcloak are right there in the same room as them?? That one makes no sense...

Zevox

That is because it is what Redcloak wants.

"Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."

With trust building between O'Chul and :mitd:, then there is a greater chance that O'Chul will say something important to :mitd: without thinking about it, and everyone else will be right there to hear should any info about any of the gates turn up.

Someone would have to be there to hear it, cause getting the info form :mitd: would be like getting blood from a turnip.

Plus the demon roaches are there to babysit :mitd:

[Warren Dew]

:eek: What level dan is O'Chul to give an 11 stones?

We have no idea how many stones he gave, if any, because we don't know how many have been captured. The big block in the center makes it pretty clear that quite a lot of white stones have been captured in the center, either through incremental captures of small groups and then filling, or through failed white invasions. Monster san is not playing badly enough on the lower left side to be filling in his own territory that needlessly.

On another note, anyone else think the picture made by the board in the sixth frame is a hint about what the monster is? It looks like a portrait to me - with eyes at the eyes they discuss, two claws or forelegs in front, and a body behind on the left.

[marquiz]

Methinks the fiendish roach doth deserve a decent smite at one point. It is a shame O-Chull has no slippers... or rolled newspapers...
minus fifteen and counting...
Still it is rather nice to listen to a sensible paladin. Even though he tries to give out messages, *grin* he has not surrendered.

[Dreadon]

Is it just me or is V a little crisp around the edges. Might have taken some damage coming threw the barrier.

Also if V had just shown up 10 min later O-Chul might have been able to get the MITD to the good side... Way to go elf buddy!

[Alteran]

It's great to see O-Chul again, and so this comic is a success for me. :smallbiggrin:

[Silverraptor]

Vaarsuvius VS Xykon! Round 1! *DING!*

[The Blackbird]

So it begins...



Vaarsuvius VS Xykon! Round 1! *DING!*

10 gold on Xykon

[Zevox]

That is because it is what Redcloak wants.

"Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."

With trust building between O'Chul and :mitd:, then there is a greater chance that O'Chul will say something important to :mitd: without thinking about it, and everyone else will be right there to hear should any info about any of the gates turn up.

Someone would have to be there to hear it, cause getting the info form :mitd: would be like getting blood from a turnip.

Plus the demon roaches are there to babysit :mitd:
...but that makes no sense. If they're right there and listening to him, they'd know he was trying to turn MitD against them, and not without some success. That's something they'd want to stop, immediately. As O-Chul says, they want him mindlessly subservient, not thinking for himself, especially if his thinking is in a direction likely to make him refuse orders or even turn against them.

Besides, Redcloak knows O-Chul knows nothing important. He told Jirix as much the last time we saw him. He's just using O-Chul's interrogation as a way to stall for time so that Goblin-controlled Azure City can reach a point where its existence is stable. So that whole theory is out the window from the start there.

Zevox

[DabblerWizard]

I find it very cool (in a story dynamic sort of way) that O'Chul seems to be working on the Mitd's conscience. This gives readers a glimmer of hope that maybe he'll be able to sway the Mitd's actions.

Let's not forget though that the Mitd has a child's mentality. If so, he's not only easy to sway, but fickle... Xykon could easily say "I'll give you candy [or whatever else the Mitd likes] if you..." and we might find that the Mitd jumps back to the side of evil.

On the other hand, children are also incredibly loyal to the ones they care about... maybe there is hope for the OOTS crew after all, as far as getting Mitd on their side... as in: "Mr. Stifley's friends are my friends!"

[Silverraptor]

So it begins...




10 gold on Xykon

In round 1? YOUR ON!!:smallbiggrin:

[shadzar]

@ Zevox

But Redcloak didn't tell Xykon so preventing it may tip him off to something and question Redcloak more about the gates and O'Chuls knowledge of them.

So Redcloak is best to not interere else, he may tip his own hand. Remember Xykon stil thinks he is caling all the shots and Redcloak allows it for now because Redcloak needs Xykon.

With V entering the picture it could all change as Xykon could be pretty expendable and should his body be destroyed, Redcloak may try talking V into helping him with something other than the gates and destroy Xykons phylactery in the process.

Judy Tenuta: "It could happen!"

[Military Man]

As I said last thread:


:vaarsuvius: VS :xykon:
~ Encounter of the Century ~

*Hides under sandbagged and barb-wired announcement desk with microphone.*

Welcome folk to The battle of the epics!
All bets have been placed
Round one *Ding!*, this ought to be good..... :smallwink:

[Red XIV]

In SoD, Xykon commands MitD to kill Redcloak and spit out the phyl---phil--amulet if Redclock ever betrays him. IMO, that's called a Chekhov's Gun.

Either that, or it's a red herring.


With V entering the picture it could all change as Xykon could be pretty expendable and should his body be destroyed, Redcloak may try talking V into helping him with something other than the gates and destroy Xykons phylactery in the process.

Judy Tenuta: "It could happen!"
V replacing Xykon as the main villain? He currently has sufficient power to do that, but I can't see it happening.

[RosesOnConcrete]

Things we know: Ass-kicking time!
Things we do not know: Whose ass is getting kicked.

On a different note, MitD ftw.

[Secris]

I always assumed Redcloack and Xkyon were just ignoring the MitD as they often do. I'm sure O'Chul and MitD are always chatting, I doubt they pay any attention to them, especially not while playing a board game.

[Gamgee]

A very interesting page. Monster-san describes his homeland as being a Warm Forest environment, possibly Warm Swamp, and being raised primarily by his father. Major clues on both fronts! Perhaps a halfbreed of some kind? If a Warm Swamp is his homeland, it could mean half black dragon. On the other hand, his father's behavior sounds like that of the Temperate Forest dwelling Green Dragon.

Also, never underestimate the power of beans.

Not my theory, but I heard it one day and loved it as it makes perfect sense.

Actually this just lends further credit to the theory he is baby Godzilla. Actually I am 100% sure it is a baby Godzilla. I mean he was raised by his father after all ;)

[Kareasint]

Jirix needs to flee. Now. A caster just ported in through an epic shield against teleportation and looks prepared to level the building.

This should be entertaining.

[The Blackbird]

In round 1? YOUR ON!!:smallbiggrin:

Wait round 1?!

Damn I gotta actually read things for once.

[TonyLB]

(The artist had to bring up Go, huh? Now I've been lured into registering and posting :smallwink:)


I can only guess the Go skill level of our artist. I suspect he just didn't pay much attention to the reasonableness of the position, possibly starting with the shape he wanted to O-Chul's analogy, and then scattered stones in a somewhat Go-like manner.Actually, the game's really intricately designed and interesting. I mean ... there's this whole artful little sequence available after Black A18, just as a forinstance. And the five white stones at the top (E18-K18) are exactly the right number to make that group killable if the double-hane connecting them to the space at the right gets compromised.

Personally, I think the artist either has some real Go chops, or consulted someone who does ... especially when I take a look up-right-diagonal at the prior panel with the whole game in miniature on the floor, and note that the lower-right corner belongs entirely to MitD. Score-wise, that makes the entire right side necessary for White to win the game. MitD has three corners and has ruined most of the center territory.

To me, it looks like a teaching game with a very specific lesson (above and beyond the "two eyes" discussion). That group that everyone is criticizing because it is all squeezed down and only has two eyes? The group that represents MitD? That's a vitally important group in this game. It has multiple ways of breaking out of its confinement (the mentioned double-hane, but also potentially the black cut at M12) and is in a perfect position to destroy all of white's elegantly laid plans if it does.

In other words, there's a metaphor already coded into the stones that O'Chul didn't even get around to talking about. This Go game says "That ugly looking group that seems surrounded and irrelevant is actually the most important factor on the board."

[Chirios]

Anybody else think O Chul was being a bit unfair? I mean, Xykon may be a soulless baby-killing monster, but all Redcloak wants is fairness for his people; its the crappy system of the OOTS verse that makes his methods necessary.

[Zevox]

@ Zevox

But Redcloak didn't tell Xykon so preventing it may tip him off to something and question Redcloak more about the gates and O'Chuls knowledge of them.

So Redcloak is best to not interere else, he may tip his own hand. Remember Xykon stil thinks he is caling all the shots and Redcloak allows it for now because Redcloak needs Xykon.
...so your argument is that Redcloak has to use a contrived and incredibly risky means of "interrogating" O-Chul in order to maintain the appearance that he still thinks O-Chul knows something? I'm sorry, but again, that makes no sense. Redcloak risks nothing by recommending the two be separated, because Xykon is smart enough to know that letting the Paladin try to turn MitD against him - which he can clearly hear him doing if they're in the same room as him anyway - is bad news for him. And hell, Xykon doesn't really care about O-Chul's interrogation himself anyway, so he'd likely never think of such a tactic himself, so how could Redcloak possibly risk anything by separating the pair??


With V entering the picture it could all change as Xykon could be pretty expendable and should his body be destroyed, Redcloak may try talking V into helping him with something other than the gates and destroy Xykons phylactery in the process.

Judy Tenuta: "It could happen!"
No. Xykon is indispensable to Redcloak. He's the only high-level arcane caster Redcloak has ever found willing to help him. And sure as hell V has no reason to help Redcloak - not only does V not care one lick about the Goblin race, and no only is she not power-hungry like Xykon and thus easily duped into believing helping him is to her advantage, but her goal is to stop exactly what Redcloak is trying to bring about to begin with. That's why she's trying to smoke Xykon in the first place; he's a threat to the Gates, which the Order have been commissioned to defend. Redcloak is too - in fact, more so than Xykon, though V doesn't know that as yet. If he tried to convince her to help him, he'd just reveal that, and wind up on her hit list himself. And as a sub-epic character, he stands much less chance against her than Xykon does.

Zevox

[Aerysil]

The plot is on rapid now.

It was poking a bit for a little while there.

[tradman]

I think it's great that a go game showed up on OOTS. As a dan level player, I can make some comments about the game. At first I thought it was an attempt to picture a monster, but if it is, it's too abstract for me to get any idea of what it's supposed to be. Based on the board, I doubt that Rich knows much about go beyond the basic rules. If there is a handicap, it's almost certainly Chinese style, (black just X makes moves wherever s/he wishes before white begins to play) but the position makes that seem highly unlikely. It could concievably be a two stone handicap Japanese style, (one black stone on each of the upper left and lower right 4/4 points) but once again, it's incredibly difficult to imagine how the board position could develop. White is certainly way ahead. Black has a large corner in the lower left, but other than that the rest of the board is almost certain to be all white. The black group in the upper right is dead, and the large group with two eyes is worth two points. However, black can make an incursion in the upper right by threatening to kill the white group on the top. White will have to give up a stone to avoid having his group die, thereby giving black a foothold in the upper right. Furthermore, black can capture part of white's group in the upper left and white must be careful, or black's dead corner will spring back to life. Black can also make a major incursion in the lower half of the board, but white can invade black's large territory in the lower left and make a group in that corner.

[japandy42]

I'm somewhat surprised no one has pointed this out but...

how is the MITD playing through a cardboard box?

[NamonakiRei]

This was awesome. Totally awesome.

"Where did that elf get beans from?" Also, looks like it's not the first time :smallbiggrin:
And just when the MitD was about to start really thinking about his allegiance... drat. Good timing, V :smallannoyed:

Anyway, I'm very glad to see team Evil back! I've missed those guys. I can't wait to see what happens next. This will be Epic! (Pun intended) [/not saying much in purpose]

[shadzar]

@ Zevox

Redcloak is no dummy. Take away MitD's plaything Mr Stiffy, and then he would have to occupy him somehow. Right now Redcloak is using O'Chul as a nanny for MitD.

Anything else that may come out of it, or that may extend Xykon's stay in Azure City to make the goblin races more sound is exactly in line of what Redcloak wants.

Would you rather babysit MitD or let someone else do it so you can get some work done?

Xykon is ONLY needed as long as he is usefull, and CAN be replaced. Redcloak said so himself. Haera is wondering around. If V should be defeated, and Haera still somehow able to cast a spell and inhabit V's body, then there may just be someone that trumps Xykon in power and could be just as, if not more, useful in Redcloak's plans.

[i6uuaq]

First time posting ever...

I had to jump in here because I think the examination of the GO game is missing the big tell....

The GO board is a drawing of the MitD... (think 8bit theater)

The two empty spots in the block of black stones are referred to in the strip title... the white semi-circle on the left side... the back-shell of the Tarrasque... long back legs, shorter front legs.... Rich has given us the final hint...

edit: Also the single horn at the top/front of the head

that's what i was thinking. except i don't DnD, and have no idea what a tarrasque should look like. but i figured it was standard geek-type foreshadowing to put a picture of the monster in the go board. The strip title seems to agree with this conclusion - "Two eyes in the dark." O-Chul literally points this out to MitD, drawing even more attention to the parallel.

didn't know so many people played go.

It would be a V tendency to kill MitD, except that I'm not sure MitD has been introduced to V as part of Team Evil yet. Also, if MitD continues to display his wisdom score of wallpaper, V may get frustrated and simply not bother with it.

[FlawedParadigm]

Does no one else wonder if the demon cockroach is all right? I mean, should the demon cockroach die, that would be...the end of an era of comedy...

Please pull through, DC, please make it!

[Elfey]

In other words, there's a metaphor already coded into the stones that O'Chul didn't even get around to talking about. This Go game says "That ugly looking group that seems surrounded and irrelevant is actually the most important factor on the board."

I hope the Giant knew that, if so the Giant added just another layer on top of the story with another metaphor. I'm hoping both O'Chul and Monster-san survive this encounter, but I'm pretty sure a major plot character will die soon.

[spargel]

It looks like it's going to be 3v1.

[ref]

Interesting theories about the Go game!

Vaarsuvius is gonna suffer from this one (like usual lately, it seems).

[Lawst]

Quote:


So it begins...




10 gold on Xykon

In round 1? YOUR ON!!

Can I get in on this?? I got 1,000 freshly printed bills from Rich Uncle Pennybags!!

[Poppy Appletree]

(The artist had to bring up Go, huh? Now I've been lured into registering and posting :smallwink:)

Actually, the game's really intricately designed and interesting. I mean ... there's this whole artful little sequence available after Black A18, just as a forinstance. And the five white stones at the top (E18-K18) are exactly the right number to make that group killable if the double-hane connecting them to the space at the right gets compromised.

Personally, I think the artist either has some real Go chops, or consulted someone who does ... especially when I take a look up-right-diagonal at the prior panel with the whole game in miniature on the floor, and note that the lower-right corner belongs entirely to MitD. Score-wise, that makes the entire right side necessary for White to win the game. MitD has three corners and has ruined most of the center territory.

To me, it looks like a teaching game with a very specific lesson (above and beyond the "two eyes" discussion). That group that everyone is criticizing because it is all squeezed down and only has two eyes? The group that represents MitD? That's a vitally important group in this game. It has multiple ways of breaking out of its confinement (the mentioned double-hane, but also potentially the black cut at M12) and is in a perfect position to destroy all of white's elegantly laid plans if it does.

In other words, there's a metaphor already coded into the stones that O'Chul didn't even get around to talking about. This Go game says "That ugly looking group that seems surrounded and irrelevant is actually the most important factor on the board."

I registered to tell you that that was beautiful. :smallsmile:

[Shatteredtower]

Toast or not, V made a fine entrance there. Nice nod to Jack Kirby's Fourth World in the teleport's sound effect too.

[Zevox]

@ Zevox

Redcloak is no dummy. Take away MitD's plaything Mr Stiffy, and then he would have to occupy him somehow. Right now Redcloak is using O'Chul as a nanny for MitD.
[...]
Would you rather babysit MitD or let someone else do it so you can get some work done?
You do realize that there was a time before MitD met O-Chul, right? Yet somehow, Redcloak didn't need to look after him constantly then. How is it suddenly different now??


Anything else that may come out of it, or that may extend Xykon's stay in Azure City to make the goblin races more sound is exactly in line of what Redcloak wants.
Yet again, nothing more can come of it. It does nothing to keep Xykon in Azure City. O-Chul knows nothing important. And Redcloak knows this. All that is coming of this is that O-Chul is getting the MitD to think for himself, and that is bad for Redcloak and Xykon, not good, and certainly not something either of them would want.


Xykon is ONLY needed as long as he is usefull, and CAN be replaced. Redcloak said so himself.
Have you read Start of Darkness?
Redcloak needs a powerful, presumably near-epic or actually epic, arcane caster to help him with the rituals necessary to establish control over one of the Gates. Xykon is the only one he has ever found both able and willing to help him. Until such a time as he finds another both able and willing to help him - which is unlikely at best, given there don't seem to be any powerful Goblin wizards in this world and no one else in their right mind would want to help him (hell, Xykon is only doing it because Redcloak deceived him about exactly what he can do with the Gates) - Xykon is indispensable to Redcloak's Plan.


Haera is wondering around. If V should be defeated, and Haera still somehow able to cast a spell and inhabit V's body, then there may just be someone that trumps Xykon in power and could be just as, if not more, useful in Redcloak's plans.
First, Haera is not able to cast spells unless she finds a host. The IFCC were clear on that. Second, how on earth could she have crossed an ocean and however much of two continents stands between V's home and Azure City to reach the city in less than twenty minutes? Third, even if Haera were to acquire a host and at some point meet Redcloak, she again needs a reason to help him. He may try the same duplicity he pulled on Xykon, but its not likely to work. She's already one of the most powerful mages in history - if she wanted to conquer the world, she probably could (hell, according to the IFCC, Ganoron did exactly that to other worlds back when he was alive, and Haera is more powerful than him), no need to take risks like trying to control a God-killing abomination that could permanently erase her from existence if anything goes wrong. And I'd lay odds she cares about the Goblin people about as much as Xykon does.

Zevox

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I called the MitD a long time ago, and every new bit of evidence tells me I'm right!

Minya (Minilla), son of Godzilla!) (http://americankaiju.kaijuphile.com/articles/sonofgodzilla.shtml) By the way, Hulu has this movie here (http://www.hulu.com/son-of-godzilla?c=Science-Fiction). Compare Minya to the image on the Go board, and you'll see the similarities.
A monster non-D&D playing readers will easily recognize, powerful, dangerous, yet loved by children.

So you don't need to drag together a dozen monsters from a half-dozen different sourcebooks, just accept the fact that not every monster that has existed has stats in one of the Monster Manuals.

[Enlong]

Is it just me or is V a little crisp around the edges. Might have taken some damage coming threw the barrier.

Also if V had just shown up 10 min later O-Chul might have been able to get the MITD to the good side... Way to go elf buddy!

Or Xykon could've just now thrown a fireball at V. Hence a big BOOM! and not the pop! of a teleport.

[shadzar]

Have you read Start of Darkness?
Redcloak needs a powerful, presumably near-epic or actually epic, arcane caster to help him with the rituals necessary to establish control over one of the Gates. Xykon is the only one he has ever found both able and willing to help him. Until such a time as he finds another both able and willing to help him - which is unlikely at best, given there don't seem to be any powerful Goblin wizards in this world and no one else in their right mind would want to help him (hell, Xykon is only doing it because Redcloak deceived him about exactly what he can do with the Gates) - Xykon is indispensable to Redcloak's Plan.
Zevox

No. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to make purchases online. Likewise not everyone has a B&M store that sells such products. The only thing I ever found was OOTS game next to the Munchkin Cthulu card game. No compilation books, etc.

[Assassin89]

It is quite interesting to see MitD again, but I think that the picture made by the go stones might turn out to be a red herring from MitD's true identity. I wonder if the MitD will question his motivations and begin to think for himself?

[Fargo1168]

Finally, after long last, Team Evil is back in the game! Its been way to long!

[Mauve Shirt]

O-Chul seems hopeful, I suppose he recognized V.
I suspect V will kill Xykon temporarily (not shattering the philactery) and O-Chul will go with V to join the rest of the Azurites. If V lets him. It would be interesting if the MITD tried to join O-Chul and the Order, but it won't happen.

[David Argall]

Edit: Wait, does O-Chul recognize V or not? It's kinda hard to tell...
Probably not. He has seen V a handful of times at most, and V is now considerably different. However anybody who barges in with a hostile expression is not likely to be good news for Xykon, and that makes him at least a 3rd class friend of O-Chul.



10 gold on Xykon
Now how are you defining victory here? If you are defining it as Xykon beating V up, I'll take that 10 gold off your hands before somebody else has a chance to rob you. If you are saying Xykon wins by staying "alive" even if V dusts him, runs his minions out of the city, etc, just so he is a full skeleton in a hundred strips or so..., I am not going to risk a copper.



Actually, the game's really intricately designed and interesting. I mean ... there's this whole artful little sequence available after Black A18, just as a forinstance.
True... A18 threatens B19, allowing the corner to live and a swing of about 20 points, but if White plays B19, then B14 produces a very large ko. However, B14 1st looks better as A17, A18 again threatens to save the corner with B19, but if White plays B19, A16 immediately threatens to win the ko, and 30-40 points.


And the five white stones at the top (E18-K18) are exactly the right number to make that group killable if the double-hane connecting them to the space at the right gets compromised.
That's IF. Essentially Black needs to make an unanswered move before that group is in major danger. If K19, J19, and White can play F19 to form 2 eyes, or somewhere around N18 to preserve the connection. So Black just has a bunch of ko threats [quite useful when that corner needs saving, but the group can be saved at need.]

However the basic flaw with your argument is that Go is complex enough that interesting patterns are almost impossible to avoid. We can not assume meaning from patterns because "meaning" is always present.



how is O-Chul speaking to him so openly if Xykon and Redcloak are right there in the same room as them??
I doubt they really worry about it. They are used to the MitD being useless and easily ordered around. So what if O-Chul makes it useless for the other side? And they likely consider that impossible anyway.
Xykon is just used to having the MitD in the same room with him, and he wants O-Chul easily available when he is in the mood for another game of [almost] Kill the Paladin. And Redcloak would likely want to know where he is for the next torture session.

[delguidance]

This comic is pure win.

[Warren Dew]

The fact that Monster-san has the Wisdom score of wallpaper might help him influence it too, should a little fast-talk be called for. :smallwink:

I think the fast talk is already what's happening in this strip, contrary to their previous chats. O'Chul had the perfect opportunity to point out that the monster was doing a lot of thinking in learning the game and enjoying it, so perhaps it wouldn't be such a pain to expand on that, but instead, O'Chul goes into some weak, attenuated analogy between surrounding chess freedoms and doing his own thinking.

Now, sure, the monster is gullible enough to fall for it, but if it became an issue, Xykon would only have to point out that keeping the freedoms empty was much more like keeping its mind empty, and thinking for itself would be like filling in one of the freedoms, which would be suicide in the game. The availability of that counterargument is likely why Xykon isn't worried about the little discussion.

[Brauley]

"Where did that elf get beans?!"

Good show Rich! You rock!

[Ted The Bug]

It won't matter what O-Chul says. Whoever has the stew, controls the MitD.

Stewstewstewstewstew!

[Leta]

What a poetic title!

Two eyes in the dark... two eyes, yeah? I love that!

And now let the epic battle begin!

[mistformsquirrl]

*snerk*

I'm not gonna lie, I cracked the heck up when I read "Where did the elf get beans?!"

<'x'> Truly priceless!

[the_tick_rules]

Oh man, this is gonna rock!!!

[Jimorian]

With the MITD }this{ close to an epiphany on thinking for itself, but being interrupted, I think that signals that the epiphany won't happen during this fight, and that the MITD is going to lose its sensei (either through death or escape) and will have to make that shift on its own later.

Unfortunately, I think that this is the end of the line for O-Chul, but out of his death will eventually come one of the moments that will save everything.

[Xorbon]

I got a weird thought. The second last panel reminded me of a scene from the movie Spaceballs.

What if the 3 figures in that panel (other than V) are Team Evil's 'stunt doubles'! In that case, either Team Evil is long gone, or they have prepared an ambush for V. (Though if it's the former, why would they leave the Monster behind.)

Anyway, just a thought...

[fractal]

Spoiler predictions:


With the MITD }this{ close to an epiphany on thinking for itself, but being interrupted, I think that signals that the epiphany won't happen during this fight, and that the MITD is going to lose its sensei (either through death or escape) and will have to make that shift on its own later.

Unfortunately, I think that this is the end of the line for O-Chul, but out of his death will eventually come one of the moments that will save everything.

I agree, mostly. One way or another, O-Chul won't still be with Team Evil after this. Maybe he is killed, maybe he is rescued, maybe he escapes, or maybe Team Evil leaves without him. In any case, we can be certain that he won't be giving any more advice to the MitD.

You always have to take that last step by yourself, and it's no different for the MitD.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Well I'm very impressed and I can honestly say I'm anticipating the next few strips after 651 hugely. I can't wait.

And it seems we can see exactly what pieces are on the board here - Redcloak, Xykon and V with MitD and O'Chul not far away (plus Hobgoblin General so far out of his league it isn't funny and an upside down demon roach). Also, after such an entrance, especially through Cloister, I expect Team Evil aren't going to be underestimating V (though Xykon might think he's come for a job).

Also love the fact that after months of captivity O'Chul is still patiently working on redeeming the MitD. Sure, I expect using him to escape might be a part of it, but I also think O'Chul really cares about the MitD's freewill. It is a very nice contrast of Paladins - the O'Chul approach, the Hinjo approach, the Miko approach throughout the story.


...but if it became an issue, Xykon would only have to point out that keeping the freedoms empty was much more like keeping its mind empty, and thinking for itself would be like filling in one of the freedoms, which would be suicide in the game.

While I think Xykon is smarter and more cunning then he often shows, I really can't see him making that kind of argument. Redcloak maybe, but not Xykon.


Or Xykon could've just now thrown a fireball at V. Hence a big BOOM! and not the pop! of a teleport.

I'd say it is definitely more the effect of powering through the Cloister - I've never seen a fireball powerful enough to cause the vibrations evident in panel 10 and 11.

And it seems fitting breaking through an epic barrier would result in this.


You do realize that there was a time before MitD met O-Chul, right? Yet somehow, Redcloak didn't need to look after him constantly then. How is it suddenly different now??

Well, we saw in earlier strips how they dealt with the MitD - in the dungeon they all hung out in the Gate room, then it was the long march. Now they have him in a box out of the way. So apparently they are wanting to keep him from under their feet.


Yet again, nothing more can come of it. It does nothing to keep Xykon in Azure City. O-Chul knows nothing important. And Redcloak knows this. All that is coming of this is that O-Chul is getting the MitD to think for himself, and that is bad for Redcloak and Xykon, not good, and certainly not something either of them would want.

Unless they know or are confident they can bring the MitD back under control even if it does decide to go rogue (which would be a concern for anyone in control of a super powerful beasty - whether it had a Paladin friend or not). And I'd say they understand it is contained and not smart enough to do anything complex for O'Chul. So at worst O'Chul gets it to break him out - they deal with the MitD and the naked, weaponless Paladin high in the tower of doom.


Does no one else wonder if the demon cockroach is all right? I mean, should the demon cockroach die, that would be...the end of an era of comedy...

Please pull through, DC, please make it!

If it doesn't make it then I guess its friend will decide to swear vengeance on V and go after his family...

But I'm sure it will be fine, cockroaches have a reputation for survival.

[Scarlet Knight]

... do we have a name for evil Azure City???

"New Goblinopolis"? :smallconfused:

[jidasfire]

Anybody else think O Chul was being a bit unfair? I mean, Xykon may be a soulless baby-killing monster, but all Redcloak wants is fairness for his people; its the crappy system of the OOTS verse that makes his methods necessary.

Gotta disagree with you there. Redcloak may have nominally noble motivations, but someone willing to use enslavement, torture, fratricide, and the threat of universal annihilation to achieve their goals is not a good person. Maybe he started off halfway decent, but associating with Xykon has worn down Redcloak's morality to the point where his talk of equality is hollow. He doesn't want equality, he wants domination.

[mlsq42]

For the record, I know nothing about Go, but if you assume that O-C is increadably good at it, then it's entirely possible he's manipulated the entire game to get to that point, hence the board state doesn't have to work on a normal level, in that O-C wasn't playing to win, but playing to get to this point.

Isn't it?

*goes off wondering if we'll get a swerve and Redcloak is the right being for the 4 words...*

EDIT add: Oh, and as for how MITD is playing, maybe the roach is there to put down the... stones? Markers? Colored bits of wood? for him.

[Badgercloak]

Great comic. And now onto the smack down.

[DwaggieBard]

I bet V's ray spell reflects off of the MitD.

[Name Lips]

Prediction:


V recognizes Monster-San as the real threat and targets it with a devistating epic spell guaranteed to destroy whatever it touches.
O'Chull leaps in front of the beam, destroying himself to save his friend.
Monster-San looks at O'Chull's body. Eyes narrow. Anger. Focus on V - the one who killed his only friend in the world, the one person he cares about and who cared about him.

We have never. Ever. Seen Monster-San angry and trying to destroy someone. We've only seen him almost kill people while trying to play.

V will stand no chance. Either die or escape without the Contractor Guys.

[The MunchKING]

So it begins...




10 gold on Xykon

100GP on the elf-girl!!

Shake-em and Bake-em Varsuivus!!

[The MunchKING]

It would be a V tendency to kill MitD, except that I'm not sure MitD has been introduced to V as part of Team Evil yet. Also, if MitD continues to display his wisdom score of wallpaper, V may get frustrated and simply not bother with it.

It's an Elan in the Dark? :smalleek: :smallbiggrin:

[Dez]

Prediction of a graphical nature: http://www.nebol.se/temp/V_Xykon_Showdown.jpg

[Selene]

Now, sure, the monster is gullible enough to fall for it, but if it became an issue, Xykon would only have to point out that keeping the freedoms empty was much more like keeping its mind empty, and thinking for itself would be like filling in one of the freedoms, which would be suicide in the game.

So you think he'd stop playing Re-Animated Gladiators long enough to bother coming up with that scenario? The guy has major ADD. Xykon would be much more likely to use domination spells or get MitD some stew.


Also love the fact that after months of captivity O'Chul is still patiently working on redeeming the MitD. Sure, I expect using him to escape might be a part of it, but I also think O'Chul really cares about the MitD's freewill. It is a very nice contrast of Paladins - the O'Chul approach, the Hinjo approach, the Miko approach throughout the story.

I think O'Chul has become my favorite NPC of the whole story (not counting another favorite of mine from SoD). It's like he's part Yoda or something.


Gotta disagree with you there. Redcloak may have nominally noble motivations, but someone willing to use enslavement, torture, fratricide, and the threat of universal annihilation to achieve their goals is not a good person. Maybe he started off halfway decent, but associating with Xykon has worn down Redcloak's morality to the point where his talk of equality is hollow. He doesn't want equality, he wants domination.

Yes. This.

Also, how many of the goblinoid people know that destroying the world and starting over is the back-up plan? I don't think most of them would like that plan much, and many might even fight against it.

[Kaytara]

Well, there's the MitD rapidly being brought to the other side of the equation. :)

Definitely looks like a victory for V is being set up here. We have the Resistance, who have been working in the background, the slaves, who are emboldened by O-Chul and eager to escape, O-Chul himself, who may have overheard Soon's line about Xykon's phylactery, and now the MitD, who's just been filled with doubt as to his position in the struggle and will likely refuse to fight for Xykon or even turn against him if Xykon or Redcloak try to hurt the MitD's true friend, O-Chul....

The penultimate panel raises some questions, though. What just happened? Was the boom sound a result of V breaking through the Cloister spell, or of Xykon casually shooting V with something and the spell violently bouncing off? I'm betting on the former.... Also, it's strange to see that Xykon and Redcloak are apparently in the same room as O-Chul and the MitD, despite having no good reason to be so, and apparently being far away not to react to O-Chul's conversation with the MitD the same way the roach did....

[Aaron]

Well, there's the MitD rapidly being brought to the other side of the equation. :)

Definitely looks like a victory for V is being set up here. We have the Resistance, who have been working in the background, the slaves, who are emboldened by O-Chul and eager to escape, O-Chul himself, who may have overheard Soon's line about Xykon's phylactery, and now the MitD, who's just been filled with doubt as to his position in the struggle and will likely refuse to fight for Xykon or even turn against him if Xykon or Redcloak try to hurt the MitD's true friend, O-Chul....

The penultimate panel raises some questions, though. What just happened? Was the boom sound a result of V breaking through the Cloister spell, or of Xykon casually shooting V with something and the spell violently bouncing off? I'm betting on the former.... Also, it's strange to see that Xykon and Redcloak are apparently in the same room as O-Chul and the MitD, despite having no good reason to be so, and apparently being far away not to react to O-Chul's conversation with the MitD the same way the roach did....

The boom was the sound of V breaking through the Cloister spell. As for :xykon: and :redcloak: being in the same room as O-Chul, looking at the way and direction O-Chul looks and points at V and team evil, they probably are on the other side of the room.
Funny comic.

BOOOOOOMM!!!
:mitd: That wasn't me this time! They didn't even SERVE baked beans today!

The Mitd can make atomic gas. Awsome!!!:smallbiggrin: Add this to the list of what we know about the Mitd.

[derfenrirwolv]

10 gold on my trifecta

V takes out the monster in the darkness.

O chul Smites evil V

On the other hand, people who keep you in cages generaly aren't your friends. V can see a caged pally and a caged Monster San. He might mistakenly think the monster will be on his side if he lets it out.

[shadzar]

The penultimate panel raises some questions, though. What just happened? Was the boom sound a result of V breaking through the Cloister spell, or of Xykon casually shooting V with something and the spell violently bouncing off?

Well I doubt it was baked beans...

I would say it was V teleporting in, but not through the cloister. Xykon and Redcloak were watching the TeeVo, and V popped in where it used to be. Used to be because that isn't burn marks from the teleport on the ground, else the ships should be fried from when V teleported the fleet. So it is where the TeeVo scrying ball blew up and the smudge on the floor is all that is left. Tune in next strip to hear:

:redcloak: I hope you kept the receipt for that thing.
:xykon: I left it with my keys wherever they are.

[Xandro]

Woo-hoo! Things are getting climactic around here!
I think V will lose. And someone will die. Soon.

:smalleek:
Don't understand! Soon is already dead. And he isn't even around...

[Omegonthesane]

Prediction of a graphical nature: http://www.nebol.se/temp/V_Xykon_Showdown.jpg

Not booping likely. First, the soul-splice was described as a once-in-a-lifetime deal, and while the fiends lied about other things they'd have tempted a commoner with the splice before now if it wasn't a rare thing. Therefore the spell "Sever Soul Splice" can pretty much be ignored as a vastly more arbitrary, sucky concept than the plot dealing with the destruction of Xykon. Second... if Xykon had any epic nuking spell, he'd have used it instead of Meteor Swarm to croak Roy.


:smalleek:
Don't understand! Soon is already dead. And he isn't even around...

"Soon" in this context is the English word meaning "an indefinite but short time from now" as opposed to the founder of the Sapphire Guard.

[Glorendil]

It's about time something would happen with the MitD, and the option of it changing sides sounds like a good equalizer for the situation, although for some reason I doubt it'll join V. It may follow Ochul's suggestions, though.

Regarding the upcoming battle, here are some points:
1. V still has a mind blank spell going, so mind affecting spells shouldn't concern him.
2. Shapechange is 10 min/level, so it should be up as well. Since shapechanging is a free action, V can make some really quick changes. A good change might be to a monster with a high magic resistance stat, since that is an extraordinary ability (I think) and will work in shapechange.
3. I think that V's greatest chance is to begin with a time stop, and use it to shore up his defenses and make some initial attacks.
4. Good defenses include Spell Turning and Improved Invisibility (Xykon & RC will likely see him, but all the lesser warrior types around will find it harder to interfere). I'd say he should also have some sort of protection from area effect spells, although I can't think of any good one now.
5. A possible attack strategy (if viable):
i. Start with Maze on Xykon to send him away for some rounds (no saving throw, and I doubt he has "find the path" to exit in 1 round).
ii. Hit red cloak with a high-damage spell with a reflex save (cone of cold, for example), and then use a power word kill to take him down.
iii. Do a lot of monster summoning to swarm Xykon when he returns.
iv. Mass haste
v. Have the monsters swarm Xykon while doing repeated disintegrates on him.

[Bedinsis]

That was a rather gross joke...
Anyways, halfly serious prediction time!
Vaarsuvius and Xykon battles. It becomes obvious that Vaarsuvius has the upper hand and is about to win. So Xykon says "Foolish elf! You can never defeat me while I have THIS power at my side!" The following strip let's MitD out of the darkness. When out of the dark, Monster-san gains newfound likening for Xykon ("He totally let me out of the darkness and stuff!") and Xykon gets the upper hand. Eventually Vaarsuvius has to flee, and somehow O-Chul dies. (don't know how or why, but it will force Team Evil to start moving again, since they have noone to interrogate)

[B.I.T.T.]

Wow...uhh...good luck, V-meister.

Good comic.

[Blanth]

I wonder how many stones O'Chul spotted the MitD.

I thought about this when I looked at the strip a second time today. Look at the hoshi (star point). The board may be upside down but the lower corner does not have a black stone on it but the hoshi on the line above it does. We can't see the lower right corner but the upper right corner does not have a black stone their either.

This would seem to me that there is a 2 stone handicap.


but we don't see the whole board.

EDIT -- No, wait, we do pretty much see it all in one of the frames. O'Chul's winning handily, I guess, though there's still a bit of room in two of the corners for some action.

We aren't seeing the whole thing. At first I thought they were on a 13x13 (which makes a bit more sense for someone starting out) but then I counted the lines (at least 15 visible) and location of hoshi tells me this 19x19.

So yes, there's still some room in the corners. :-)

2 stones though makes you wonder about the intellect of :mitd: doesn't it? :)

[Liwen]

Wow, lots of people play Go around this forum. I'm clueless to understand all the argumentation I've read about it.

Anyway, The time for epic fight has come

100 Platinum pieces on Redcloak saves the day for Xykon.

[Superglucose]

As for the Go, if it weren't for that unsightly mess in the middle it actually looks like MitD is doing a decent job versus O/C. I suspect that O/C is a master player (or whatever that top level is) because he's a tactician at heart, probably has really high wisdom, and at least decent intelligence. Plus, listening to him talk to MitD, he seems to have a penchant for this kind of thing.

I wonder if this is the way we're supposed to be told that MitD isn't stupid or naive, just young.

[eras10]

I had a great post and it got eaten. Ok, this comic was moving, dramatic and funny all in one. One of my favorites. I loved how tight it was and the flow. Building the humor/pathos crest with O-Chul / MITD, then BAM - a 1-panel V Arrival Scene (looking bad*ss pissed). Then out on a genuinely funny note to keep it light. Just brilliant.

And, these are the most compelling - not most realistic or complex (they are those things, but not to a 10, just enough) - just most compelling characters I can rememeber from a webcomic. In the LOTR way, where what should be cliche is somehow not, but is a timeless incarnation of meaningful struggle. Heroic. The MITD in particular fascinates me. His character is so... striking in the contrast to how he sees the world and everyone else. He's been used as a comedy trash can for so long, we've been mostly led to take him no more seriously than Xykon does. But this strip really gets to the pathos of his situation. He's like a demi-god Algernon.

There are now too many balls in play for me to feel like I know what's next, which is awesome, but here's some vague predictions:


#1. V's not coming back to OOTS anytime soon. Looks like they'll probably beat Xykon to Gerard's Gate. Interesting. I continue to think it won't end well for her (if it doesn't, it definitely *won't* be some wimpy fail and teleport out, Rich will use this more decisively), but with O-Chul and MITD getting introduced so soon, I really don't know anymore.
I keep thinking, she has to lose - if she wins, the strip is over. Even if she wins non-decisive, what was once an interesting, sinister imbalance time bomb will become awkward and clunky.

#2. I think this is where O-chul becomes Sacrificed Mentor. Get ready for sad.
I doubt it will be V on the trigger, although O-Chul will probably read her as evil, so anything's possible. O-Chul MITD are total wildcards, but they would only have a Tragic V confrontation if Team Evil is already down.

#3. It's time for Team Evil to be the broken stick. Whatever happens to X and Redcloak, I think MITD's days of riding backseat are over.

someone will hate me for this, but I think it was be fascinatingly bleak, potentially heroic, and artistically powerful if everyone but Redcloak (who is the one guy I'm sure will live) died in a combination of cruelty and catastrophe. And appropriate. Realistic. This kind of fight is like a reactor meltdown. It should be painful and heart-stomping to watch. That's what evil/crazy epic fights with innocents in the area are like.

[rxmd]

I had a great post and it got eaten.
By a grue?

[mcv]

Hmmmmm... I'm not seeing it. I doubt that Rich would reveal the identity of the MitD so early in the story and at such a seemingly random time.
Early in the story? The last week I've been having a knot in my stomach because I fear OoTS is finally coming to an end.


Although I believe there's a teaching version where you count enclosed spaces + stones on board rather than enclosed spaces + stones captured, in which case the giant dango isn't quite as terrible as it seems -- just a waste of moves rather than actively losing points.
That's not a teaching version, that's Chinese counting. The end result is the same. (At most 1 point difference depending on who played the first and last stone.) Keep in mind that any stone played inside your own territory is a stone not played outside your own territory. So he's still losing points by filling in his own territory.

(How many go players are there here anyway?)

[Hothgadt]

Looking at the board, black shoud resign. Even if whites horrible shape allows him to live in upper left corner... The aji left on the right side isnt good enough.

O'Chul should have made that the basis of his philosophic lesson :-)

[mcv]

I thought about this when I looked at the strip a second time today. Look at the hoshi (star point). The board may be upside down but the lower corner does not have a black stone on it but the hoshi on the line above it does. We can't see the lower right corner but the upper right corner does not have a black stone their either.

This would seem to me that there is a 2 stone handicap.
If they're playing by standard Japanese rules. According to alternate rules (Chinese? Ing?) handicap stones can be placed wherever you want. Even to make an ugly group with two eyes in the center of the board.


As for the Go, if it weren't for that unsightly mess in the middle it actually looks like MitD is doing a decent job versus O/C. I suspect that O/C is a master player (or whatever that top level is) because he's a tactician at heart, probably has really high wisdom, and at least decent intelligence. Plus, listening to him talk to MitD, he seems to have a penchant for this kind of thing.
He's a teacher, but not a great player. Both players are ignoring an empty bottom that's in dire need of being fought over, and are instead wasting moves on creating that ugly two-eye group in the center. (Ofcourse O'Chul can afford sub-optimal play because he's way ahead anyway.)

Also keep in mind that the black top-left group is dead. The white group below it looks killable at first sight, but as far as I can tell, white can easily save it. Black only has a large group in the bottom-left, but that can be invaded. All other black groups (other than the big two-eye mess) are dead. (He might have something interesting in the bottom-right, but that won't be enough to make a difference.

[warmachine]

I can't believe Redcloak is letting O'Chul fast-talk the MitD. Redcloak is one of those uppity control freaks that don't like potential trouble.

[shadzar]

He's a teacher, but not a great player.

Why not? It seems that it may be a teaching game as O'Chul tries to place a stone just so the MitD would tell him he cannot. Being a great player would allow O'Chul to not let the game just be a teaching game fo Go, but also a life lesson as he does exactly in the strip when he purposefully attemps to illegally place a stone in one of the MitD's eyes.

I would say that O'Chul is not being given enough credit for this game since it does multiple things, and knowing MitD, it means he can get away with it in order to teach one lesson while MitD thinks he is being taught another, and ends up learning both and having a big epiphany. That is before V pops in to get in the way of the real lesson O'Chul was trying to teach MitD.

I would say that is a really good player to do that.

[hewhosaysfish]

I can't believe Redcloak is letting O'Chul fast-talk the MitD. Redcloak is one of those uppity control freaks that don't like potential trouble.

Why be concerned about MitD? He's about as scary as musty styrofoam (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html)

[banjo1985]

Ah V...how I long to see you smashed to pieces by Xykon. Hopefully the elf will meet its match. :smallamused:

[factotum]

Early in the story? The last week I've been having a knot in my stomach because I fear OoTS is finally coming to an end.


There are at least two Oracle predictions that haven't come true yet--that Xykon will be within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate sometime, and that Durkon is going to return to his homeland posthumously. Therefore we're clearly nowhere near the end of the strip--it would also just be cheap to the max to have spliced V defeat the BBEG.

[Azukar]

Okay.

1. I spent the whole "Go" sequence with a goofy smile on my face. And did a silent scream when I saw V appear.

2. AHHH! Awesome!

3. I'd like to see V kick Xykon, just for the spectacle. But I don't think it will happen. Hubris, ate, nemesis, Vaarsuvius.

4. AHHH! Awesome!

5. Really, really loving the O-Chul/MitD dynamic.

[Azukar]

By a grue?

By the Data Vampires.

[Krakes]

I am curious, though: how is O-Chul speaking to him so openly if Xykon and Redcloak are right there in the same room as them?? That one makes no sense...

Zevox[/QUOTE]

Obviously they don't think of O-Chul as a threat, and MitD isn't important. Xykon clearly hasn't read his supervillain handbook- you always treat the badass monster well!

For that same reason, I don't think monster-san will get into the fight until the critical moment- looks like Xykon and Redcloak will have their hands full for a while!:smallbiggrin:

[pendell]

WONDERFUL strip!

V pops into Xykon and Redcloak -- I can hear the action cue as the battle starts. Should be great!

Great to finally see Team Evil again. How many strips has it been since we last saw them? At last, it's like we're getting back to the OOTS we all know and love!

I suspect that


The MITD will tip this battle. One side will start off winning, but the MITD will push the scales decisively in the other direction.


One way or the other, I suspect the days of the MITD being only as scary as musty styrofoam are drawing to a close.

Well done!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Tass]

Actually, the game's really intricately designed and interesting. I mean ... there's this whole artful little sequence available after Black A18, just as a forinstance. And the five white stones at the top (E18-K18) are exactly the right number to make that group killable if the double-hane connecting them to the space at the right gets compromised.

I think you must mean somethin else than A18 rigth? A18 (a 1-2 point) doesn't make sense anywhere as far a I can see. Also the stones at the top are secure even if the top left corner lived (which it can with black B15 or C15).


(Personally, I think the artist either has some real Go chops, or consulted someone who does ... especially when I take a look up-right-diagonal at the prior panel with the whole game in miniature on the floor, and note that the lower-right corner belongs entirely to MitD. Score-wise, that makes the entire right side necessary for White to win the game. MitD has three corners and has ruined most of the center territory.

Black has two and a half corner (B/C15 are urgent) but white, despite being terribly inefficient, is hugely ahead.


To me, it looks like a teaching game with a very specific lesson (above and beyond the "two eyes" discussion). That group that everyone is criticizing because it is all squeezed down and only has two eyes? The group that represents MitD? That's a vitally important group in this game. It has multiple ways of breaking out of its confinement (the mentioned double-hane, but also potentially the black cut at M12) and is in a perfect position to destroy all of white's elegantly laid plans if it does.

I see no places at all where the center group could break out, and all white stones are secure exept for the few stones on the left. The only value of the black center is the seventy points white would get extra if it were captured.


In other words, there's a metaphor already coded into the stones that O'Chul didn't even get around to talking about. This Go game says "That ugly looking group that seems surrounded and irrelevant is actually the most important factor on the board."

It sounded very good, but as you understand, I respectfully disagree. It may have been the authors intention for it to be this way, but I dont think he has "some real Go chops", he may be 15 kyu.



Looking at the board, black shoud resign. Even if whites horrible shape allows him to live in upper left corner... The aji left on the right side isnt good enough.

O'Chul should have made that the basis of his philosophic lesson :-)

Thank you. Finally someone with an acurate analysis of the game. The monster is not doing well, and O-chul is not a master player, even if he plays to teach and not to win.

[Chirios]

Gotta disagree with you there. Redcloak may have nominally noble motivations, but someone willing to use enslavement, torture, fratricide, and the threat of universal annihilation to achieve their goals is not a good person. Maybe he started off halfway decent, but associating with Xykon has worn down Redcloak's morality to the point where his talk of equality is hollow. He doesn't want equality, he wants domination.

His people are literally looked down as 5th class citizens whose only purpose is to be killed for EXP; what methods is he supposed to use? Talking?

Redcloak: It is immoral to keep Goblins in their current state because

Paladin *Stab*

:smallannoyed:

When the universe is literally designed so that your children can be killed without any reprecussions, perhaps annihilating the universe itself seems less of a crime.

[normalphil]

Looney theory-

At some point in the following tMitD gets involved, or at least caught in the crossfire. O-Chul intervenes, "dammit V!" ensues.

[prufock]

Excellent writing in this issue. The go board metaphor gave me chills. And that panel of uber-V at the end...

In the words of Jim Ross, "Business is about to pick up!"

[JustRain]

Awesome comic!
I actually wish V won't beat Xykon. I don't want her to die, but I don't want her to kill him either. I hope she'll have a near escape and learn a lesson. I just want the good old V... And many more strips, too.

[Tharianor]

So many people on this forum play go, that's because it is a strategic game? I don't know nothing about it, mind you.


I got a weird thought. The second last panel reminded me of a scene from the movie Spaceballs.

What if the 3 figures in that panel (other than V) are Team Evil's 'stunt doubles'! In that case, either Team Evil is long gone, or they have prepared an ambush for V. (Though if it's the former, why would they leave the Monster behind.)

Anyway, just a thought...

Funny when I saw the third to last panel I had two thoughts on why Xykon, Redcloack and the commander hobg. are shown this way:
1) More obviously for dramatic reason, and to let us imagine their expressions

2)What I am going to say will sound very silly, but I will say it anyway even if doesn't contribute much to the speculations:
The MitD and O'Chul are discussing of the MitD thinking by itself in proximity of X and RC?
So maybe X, RC and hobbo Gen. are decoy puppet designed to attract anyone teleporting! I said it's silly!
Maybe MitD and O'Chul are far away from X an RC, and like someone said they don't give a d amn about what those two are saying

Awaiting for the

Match of the Millenium

:xykon: VS :vaarsuvius:

(Probably)

[Agthorr]

I wonder how many stones O'Chul spotted the MitD. I count 64 black and 53 white, but we don't see the whole board.


Counting the stones won't tell you exactly, since some stones may have been captured and removed from the board.

[Random314]

1) Belkar’s snarky remark about killing Xykon five strips from now two strips ago to my mind gives V a pretty decent shot of taking out Xykon two or three strips from now. Of course, I have no idea how Giant would follow up something that epic, although Redcloak and the goblin army would still be around…

2) I think we can all agree at this point that MitD plays very bad Go. The large metaphorical structure in the center is just a terrible use of resources. Thirty-six stones to secure two points of territory? As mentioned before, the only way to get that shape in a game is with really stupid play.

[Jimorian]

Not sure why everybody thinks that Redcloak and Xykon can hear what O-Chul is saying to tMitD, since it's clear from earlier comics that they're all in a very large hall where it would be easy for conversations to go unheard by others within sight.

Has it been established that anybody hears what the demon roaches are saying? So even if they "tattled" it might not matter.

[DrivinAllNight]

Ok V, time to kick some butt, and as far as :xykon: & :redcloak: being in the same room, it is a big room, and as far as they know, O'chul & :mitd: are simply playing a game, so why worry about someone changing the mind of musty styrofoam, someone they think is as bright as the darkness he is trapped in. I still say he did teleport into the same room as the real :xykon:, too much build up to this fight, but how it turns out I don't know, but due to oracle predictions it can end badly, just not deadly in a permanent way, except for :vaarsuvius: who has already fulfilled his predictions. But I would hate to lose him in this manner.

[xVin]

The Go metaphor is beautiful. Really. Totally. Just beautiful.

[Janmorel]

Does no one else wonder if the demon cockroach is all right? I mean, should the demon cockroach die, that would be...the end of an era of comedy...

Please pull through, DC, please make it!

I always thought of it as more of a demon cockroach collective -- I mean, roaches usually come in groups of more than 1-3, right? I bet when you turn out the lights, a half a million more of the little guys scurry into the panel.

As for this specific roach -- regular, non-demonic cockroaches can live for up to a week after being decapitated. Big Red should recover.

[Snake-Aes]

I always thought of it as more of a demon cockroach collective -- I mean, roaches usually come in groups of more than 1-3, right? I bet when you turn out the lights, a half a million more of the little guys scurry into the panel.

As for this specific roach -- regular, non-demonic cockroaches can live for up to a week after being decapitated. Big Red should recover.

And the reason of death is starvation, because they don't have a mouth to bite stuff.

[Doug Lampert]

Gotta disagree with you there. Redcloak may have nominally noble motivations, but someone willing to use enslavement, torture, fratricide, and the threat of universal annihilation to achieve their goals is not a good person. Maybe he started off halfway decent, but associating with Xykon has worn down Redcloak's morality to the point where his talk of equality is hollow. He doesn't want equality, he wants domination.
We've SEEN that goblins can get what Redcloak claims to want. Righteye had it till Redcloak and co. showed up and screwed it up. A nice little farming village with good enough relations with the surrounding humans that the circus came to town to entertain them.

That's the world Goblins who don't mess with artifacts intended to help destroy the world live in.

But Redcloak just wants a fair shake? Redcloak PREFERS the total destruction of the soul of every actual goblin in existence (that's his backup plan after all) to the situation where villages like the one shown in tSoD can exist.

[Rebarth]

Nice strip! The hints about the MitD remembering it's dad as big with a big appetite will definitely stirr up the "it's a little tarrasque!!" theories. That would be so cute.

Still, I hope the Monster doesn't let itself get swayed by O-Chul. I mean sure, it isn't as cruel as Xykon, but it is still Evil. Sure, it doesn't eat babies, but it looked positively forward to eating the Order of the Stick.

Well, I'm keeping my fingers crossed hoping that at least now it gets to devour one of them.

According to your logic, Haley is evil, too.

[hajo]

Has it been established that anybody hears what the demon roaches are saying?
Maybe they have tiny voices, but at least when using a microphone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html), they can be heard.

[maxon]

Does no one else wonder if the demon cockroach is all right? I mean, should the demon cockroach die, that would be...the end of an era of comedy...

Please pull through, DC, please make it!

There's plenty more where he came from.*

*To quote another comic

[Arakune]

Just for the curious:

Lower left corner + left side: 40 points
Center: 2 points
Upper Left corner: dead (dead two stones to live at b1 and a2 to live) or unsettled (if there is a stone at b1)

Lower right corner: unknow:
Lower side: unsetled

Total visible: around 42 points

Ochul: Problably all he upper rigthcorner, most of the right side and some in the center. From what we can se he have at least a 14 points advantage (considering the upper righ corner is unsetled or still has room from invasion and the lower right corner is unsetled for black). The lower side still have room for real invasion, so i's poins are out for boh players unless the situation stabilises.

Also, does the giant play go?

[Snake-Aes]

Maybe they have tiny voices, but at least when using a microphone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html), they can be heard.

Belkar interacted with a demon roach while cooking stew.

[Arakune]

I think you must mean somethin else than A18 rigth? A18 (a 1-2 point) doesn't make sense anywhere as far a I can see. Also the stones at the top are secure even if the top left corner lived (which it can with black B15 or C15).

Black has two and a half corner (B/C15 are urgent) but white, despite being terribly inefficient, is hugely ahead.

I see no places at all where the center group could break out, and all white stones are secure exept for the few stones on the left. The only value of the black center is the seventy points white would get extra if it were captured.

It sounded very good, but as you understand, I respectfully disagree. It may have been the authors intention for it to be this way, but I dont think he has "some real Go chops", he may be 15 kyu.

Thank you. Finally someone with an acurate analysis of the game. The monster is not doing well, and O-chul is not a master player, even if he plays to teach and not to win.

By the way Ochull plays he is around 10k in kgs. Yes, the 9k+ are much more mean than him even against weaker players (myself included). But then again if they fall for tricks an complete begginner doesn't fall anymore they deserve a massive punishment.

[The MunchKING]

Belkar interacted with a demon roach while cooking stew.

And Miko used one to light her bombs.

[Mc. Lovin']

Hmmm this is awesome! It's gonna be V, MitD & Ochul vs Xykon, Redcloak & Hobbo leader! I mean, it almost certainly wont be, but that'd be cool

[Thrudh]

I want to see the look on Xykon's face so badly!

I think there's a REASON he's facing away from the camera...

I'm guessing he was expecting V (maybe warned by the escaped soul?)

[dps]

Belkar interacted with a demon roach while cooking stew.

One even testified at the trial of the Order in Azure City.

[Kholdstare]

I think people are underestimating the MItd. They make it seem as he is completely retarded or practically an ogre. I think if Ochul hits the right nerve or comes close the monster might go with him and start some kind of Obi-wan/Luke enlightenment quest.

With regards to the boom. I think V may have just powered through and destroyed the spell with pure force hence the BOOM.

[Wormwood74]

One possible outcome (that I haven't seen discussed) is that V comes on hard, but Xykon wears him down with all those spells a Sorcerer has.

In the end, V gets hit with a second hard blow from Xykon, loses the last of his two remaining souls, and is saved from death by the Demon/Devil/Daemon triumvurate, who show up when the last one is separated and prevent Xykon from finishing Z off.

Or.....

V dies, ends up in the black gem, and the three denizens of the lower planes show up to collect on V's debt. Hilarity ensues as Xykon has to fend those three off to prevent them from retaking V. I suspect the demons/devils win, take it, and release the other souls in there as well, causing unexpected consequences.

[AyuVince]

Please let O-Chul survive. He is too awesome to die.

Completely made-up and unlikely prediction:


The next strip returns to the order, with everyone but Durkon getting anxious about V. In the last panel, Roy gets resurrected and a powerless V pops up with O-Chul in tow.


One can hope...

[Moku]

(The artist had to bring up Go, huh? Now I've been lured into registering and posting :smallwink:)

Actually, the game's really intricately designed and interesting. I mean ... there's this whole artful little sequence available after Black A18, just as a forinstance. And the five white stones at the top (E18-K18) are exactly the right number to make that group killable if the double-hane connecting them to the space at the right gets compromised.

Personally, I think the artist either has some real Go chops, or consulted someone who does ... especially when I take a look up-right-diagonal at the prior panel with the whole game in miniature on the floor, and note that the lower-right corner belongs entirely to MitD. Score-wise, that makes the entire right side necessary for White to win the game. MitD has three corners and has ruined most of the center territory.

To me, it looks like a teaching game with a very specific lesson (above and beyond the "two eyes" discussion). That group that everyone is criticizing because it is all squeezed down and only has two eyes? The group that represents MitD? That's a vitally important group in this game. It has multiple ways of breaking out of its confinement (the mentioned double-hane, but also potentially the black cut at M12) and is in a perfect position to destroy all of white's elegantly laid plans if it does.

In other words, there's a metaphor already coded into the stones that O'Chul didn't even get around to talking about. This Go game says "That ugly looking group that seems surrounded and irrelevant is actually the most important factor on the board."

Like
http://www.mediafire.com/file/nynle2lqzk0/OOTS561.sgf
I was looking at this too and thought I should make and sgf ^_^
thanks

TOTPD (>' ')> <(' ')> <(' '<)

[Kaytara]

A wonderful detail I've noticed: In the panel where the roach says "Hey, wait a minute...", he's actually raising one red food to sort of touch his chin... Priceless. ^^

But anyway...
I've been wondering about something, but I don't want to start a thread about it if it's just my faulty memory.

I do not have War and XPs yet, but I remember reading here that Rich stated that Roy's resurrection and the reunion of the party would come at a terrible cost for one of the members, something that would change them forever.

It seems the party has already been reunited yet no obvious candidate for that role has appeared.

Vaarsuvius is the first to come to mind, of course. However, the whole point of the recent arc was that his deal with the fiends and his estrangement from his family was not necessary for the team to reunite. We also have yet no indication that the party dynamics will be TOO different from before - Belkar's changed, but nothing that could "change them forever" - which sounds rather ominous because it means that something still has to happen, but that doesn't make sense because the party has already been reunited....

Maybe I just imagined reading that line and there's no inconsistency after all, but if I didn't... What gives?

[Porthos]

A wonderful detail I've noticed: In the panel where the roach says "Hey, wait a minute...", he's actually raising one red food to sort of touch his chin... Priceless. ^^

But anyway...
I've been wondering about something, but I don't want to start a thread about it if it's just my faulty memory.

I do not have War and XPs yet, but I remember reading here that Rich stated that Roy's resurrection and the reunion of the party would come at a terrible cost for one of the members, something that would change them forever.

It seems the party has already been reunited yet no obvious candidate for that role has appeared.

Vaarsuvius is the first to come to mind, of course. However, the whole point of the recent arc was that his deal with the fiends and his estrangement from his family was not necessary for the team to reunite. We also have yet no indication that the party dynamics will be TOO different from before - Belkar's changed, but nothing that could "change them forever" - which sounds rather ominous because it means that something still has to happen, but that doesn't make sense because the party has already been reunited....

Maybe I just imagined reading that line and there's no inconsistency after all, but if I didn't... What gives?

I think you're over thinking this Kaytara. :smallsmile: The reason why V has gone down this dark road is because of Roy and Haley's absence (with a side assist of what happened back at Azure City). At the very least one of the two could have smacked some sense into the elf as he started skipping his sleep. :smalltongue:

As to the point that V's actions weren't necessary... Well, that makes the price that V paid all the more terrible, now doesn't it? If his actions were absolutely necessary, then at least some small solace could be taken from it. But in this case, not so much. Sure, doing nothing wasn't an option. But veering off to the other extreme (doing anything, absolutely anything) is being shown to be just as awful, if not worse.

As I think about it, that's the lesson to take away from V's situation. It's perfectly understandable and reasonable to be concerned for friends that when you have no idea what has happened to them. But to go off the deep end and commit yourself to obsession...

... Well, that's just begging Karma to come round for a visit.

PS: Rich's exact quote from WaXPs:

"Rest assured that bringing the team back together will have a cost - a heavy toll paid by one member of the Order could change them forever."

[jidasfire]

We've SEEN that goblins can get what Redcloak claims to want. Righteye had it till Redcloak and co. showed up and screwed it up. A nice little farming village with good enough relations with the surrounding humans that the circus came to town to entertain them.

That's the world Goblins who don't mess with artifacts intended to help destroy the world live in.

But Redcloak just wants a fair shake? Redcloak PREFERS the total destruction of the soul of every actual goblin in existence (that's his backup plan after all) to the situation where villages like the one shown in tSoD can exist.

Exactly. Right-Eye did it the way it should be done, by living well and ending the cycle of revenge and recrimination. While I think the way the paladins treated Redcloak's village in SoD was abominable, there are plenty of heroic types who would be willing to give goblins a chance if they didn't act like jerks. Roy, for one. He's proven that on more than one occasion. I also find it hard to believe that Hinjo, O-Chul, and Lien would go around butchering villages of children.

While he isn't a dyed-in-the-wool fiend like Xykon, Redcloak is a lot like bad people in the real world. They have a point of view, do care about some people, and may have gotten a raw deal at one point. Hence, we can more identify with them than people who are merely jerks. But they use that as an excuse to spread misery and keep their own consciences clear. "I did this because YOU made me!" It's dangerous to assume that just because someone is "human" that they aren't nasty, or dangerous, or in D&D terms, evil. Redcloak blames others for his crimes, but more than that, his greatest sin is cowardice. He's so afraid of being wrong that he's willing to drive goblins headlong to their deaths to avoid admitting he may have made some mistakes. He's so afraid of Xykon, whom he hates, that he'd rather murder his own brother, whom he loves, than take a chance on losing. Redcloak is a unique form of evil, but he is evil nonetheless.

[liooil2000]

Hmm... I wonder who did have baked beans that day...

[SteveMB]

I do not have War and XPs yet, but I remember reading here that Rich stated that Roy's resurrection and the reunion of the party would come at a terrible cost for one of the members, something that would change them forever.

It seems the party has already been reunited yet no obvious candidate for that role has appeared.

Vaarsuvius is the first to come to mind, of course. However, the whole point of the recent arc was that his deal with the fiends and his estrangement from his family was not necessary for the team to reunite.

Perhaps Vaarsuvius' choices were not necessary to reunite the OotS, but the fact is that that's how they did get reunited, and Vaarsuvius has paid a high price (and seems likely to pay a still higher one in the future) as a result.

[fruityjanitor]

It was really awesome to see O'chul and Monster-san again. I seriously doubt the Monster is going to change sides now, but it could be a possibility in the future.

I can't wait to see how this fight goes. I'm not sure if lots of other people were suggesting this in the threads for the past few strips but...


the Oracle started saying something about Belkar causing the death of V in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) strip. I'm wondering if Belkar just recently set the gears in motion for V's downfall when he suggested that V should go kill Xykon. The fact that Belkar seemed worried enough to try to stop V when she decided to do it makes me more worried that this will happen.

Perhaps V destroys Xykon, but not his phylactery. And while she's distracted, Redcloak or the MitD finishes her off.

It would be kind of a bummer if V died right before Roy got revived. :(

Also, if V does die here, I wonder if Nero and Co. are going to force her to pay up now or if they'll wait for a time where her soul would be more use to them. It seems to me that it is highly likely that V is going to be used against the rest of the Order when they take control of her soul.


Anyway, whatever happens, I'm excited!

Edit: Needed to add some more wild conjectures.

[Nekomata]

Like
http://www.mediafire.com/file/nynle2lqzk0/OOTS561.sgf
I was looking at this too and thought I should make and sgf ^_^
thanks

TOTPD (>' ')> <(' ')> <(' '<)
Black A18, white B19.
Black B14, if white connects, black plays B15 and captures, thus connecting the group. (There's no need to play the move you called "double hane", which isn't an actual double hane, I think.)
So, if white wants to kill the corner group, he'll not connect, instead, after B14, white captures the ko (@A17). If B doesn't win the ko W has an option of capturing at B18. So, B has to win the ko, and W is the first to capture.

Compare with Black B15- double atari. If either group is captured, black connects to a live group, so white has no choice if he wanted to prevent that- he has to capture at @A17. Black plays C15- atari. If white doesn't connect, black will capture and thus connect to his "two eyes" group. After white connects, black A18 lives, as B19 and B14 are miai for life. (though, obviously, white will preffer to take B14 due to score)

So, after B15 black group is unconditionally alive. Clearly better result that a ko that's bad for black.

[Warren Dew]

So you think he'd stop playing Re-Animated Gladiators long enough to bother coming up with that scenario? The guy has major ADD. Xykon would be much more likely to use domination spells or get MitD some stew.

I don't think he'd have to "come up" with it; I think he's already thought of it, while listening to the conversation. "Never mistake not caring for not knowing."

I do agree he'd use stew instead if that would work. Redcloak would also use stew if he were listening, but I don't think he's paying attention.

[Moku]

Black A18, white B19.
Black B14, if white connects, black plays B15 and captures, thus connecting the group. (There's no need to play the move you called "double hane", which isn't an actual double hane, I think.)
So, if white wants to kill the corner group, he'll not connect, instead, after B14, white captures the ko (@A17). If B doesn't win the ko W has an option of capturing at B18. So, B has to win the ko, and W is the first to capture.

Compare with Black B15- double atari. If either group is captured, black connects to a live group, so white has no choice if he wanted to prevent that- he has to capture at @A17. Black plays C15- atari. If white doesn't connect, black will capture and thus connect to his "two eyes" group. After white connects, black A18 lives, as B19 and B14 are miai for life. (though, obviously, white will preffer to take B14 due to score)

So, after B15 black group is unconditionally alive. Clearly better result that a ko that's bad for black.

Yah I fell dumb...

[Shadeogrey]

Oooh! Weiqi!

You know what they say.
Weiqi is Life
Life is Weiqi

[mlsq42]

I assume someone has pointed out the "Right Being" flaw with V, right? Ultimate power was 4 words to the right being, and V has made a deal with 3. If we're heading up to a climax/Book end, then V saying 4 words to Redcloak or X or someone might be a pretty good twist end.

I dunno, I'm just looking forward to it.

[Tobimaro]

Looks like the Teevo watching days are now over. I'm not sure who is going to prevail, but I can hear Michael Buffer in the background. "Let's get ready to runble!!!!" :smallbiggrin:

[Silverain]

I'm wondering whether there's a good reason V *can't* defeat Xykon. Which would really screw with poor Roy's family oath, but why couldn't V do it?

Xykon's probably ... 19th or 20th level? (He said he might be 7 or 8 levels higher than Roy, and the party is around 10th-12th level.) Vaarsuvius is effectively Epic (20+) at the moment, and he has enough spells for two or three evil mages.

Xykon does have Redcloak and the mysterious monster to back him up ... but either of them might change their minds anytime about whose side they're on.

[Omegonthesane]

I'm wondering whether there's a good reason V *can't* defeat Xykon. Which would really screw with poor Roy's family oath, but why couldn't V do it?

Xykon's probably ... 19th or 20th level? (He said he might be 7 or 8 levels higher than Roy, and the party is around 10th-12th level.) Vaarsuvius is effectively Epic (20+) at the moment, and he has enough spells for two or three evil mages.

Xykon does have Redcloak and the mysterious monster to back him up ... but either of them might change their minds anytime about whose side they're on.

Xykon's more like 21st or 22nd IIRC; even with his massive Charisma, Elan's at least 13 Bard / 1 Dashing Swordsman to cast Mass Cure Light Wounds, and therefore at least level 14 total. V, on the other hand, is effectively at least level 55 now, and that's assuming maximum possible wimpiness for Ganonron and Jephton - the opposite of what the strip implies. X doesn't stand a chance without Deus Ex Machina, given what it took to break the strongest splice.

[shadzar]

I would say that was the weakest splice considering it broke first. The more powerful the sliced the weaker the splice and more it takes to maintain being why Haera was lost first.

Also having Haera now would mean no doubt that Xykon is toast. Necromancer like her could have so much fun destroying a lich that it wouldn't even be funny. Haera had to go if V was always intended to fight X & Crew.

[Vikenlugaid]

Go Go Vaarsuvius!! Xd

[Tharianor]

This hasn't anything to do with this strip, but have everybody noticed that OotS strip 159 is now Erfworld strip 159!:smallconfused: ooops

Edit: Never mind. It was fixed!

[Shatteredtower]

Well, fruityjanitor, if we're going into wild guesses about the Oracle's predictions for Belkar, let's go all out.

Belkar has already performed the action that will lead to V's death. It was the act of leaving O-Chul behind. :smallwink:

On another subject, I'm going to view the "pop" sound effect for regular teleport spells differently now that we've seen one reach boom tube levels.

[factotum]

Perhaps Vaarsuvius' choices were not necessary to reunite the OotS, but the fact is that that's how they did get reunited

No it isn't. The whole irony about this is that the OotS would have been reunited ANYWAY without V lifting a finger--he would have been Wind Walking to Greysky City along with the others if he'd only stayed with the fleet.

[DigoDragon]

Hey, I heard there was baked beans here? ...oh wait, seems I'm late to the party. :)

[Rotipher]

If they're playing by standard Japanese rules. According to alternate rules (Chinese? Ing?) handicap stones can be placed wherever you want.


Something tells me that they're playing by traditional Azure City rules, meaning we can't make assumptions about what is or isn't allowed.

[Rotipher]

The whole irony about this is that the OotS would have been reunited ANYWAY without V lifting a finger--he would have been Wind Walking to Greysky City along with the others if he'd only stayed with the fleet.

Yes, they could've all gone Wind Walking to Azure City ... and straight into Mama Black Dragon's Anti-Magic Field. She surely wouldn't have hesitated to tackle just three opponents rather than an entire fleet, especially when all she'd have to do is intersect their path and then watch them plummet into the sea.

[Eric O'Really]

No it isn't. The whole irony about this is that the OotS would have been reunited ANYWAY without V lifting a finger--he would have been Wind Walking to Greysky City along with the others if he'd only stayed with the fleet.

well it wasnt completely unnecessary. at least he got to save his family. and the rest he couldnt know.



Soul Bind
Necromancy
Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: Corpse
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: No

...


note the one standart action casting time. he would have never arrived in time to save them, if he tried to contact someone else first. dont know how long a sending would take, but wasnt it at least 5 minutes casting time? and that doesnt even take into account, that he would have to kill himself first, the teleport to the fleet, the discussion what might have happened between elan and durkon, the 10 minute resurection of v... (i think you get my point :smallwink: )

[Kaytara]

Yes, they could've all gone Wind Walking to Azure City ... and straight into Mama Black Dragon's Anti-Magic Field. She surely wouldn't have hesitated to tackle just three opponents rather than an entire fleet, especially when all she'd have to do is intersect their path and then watch them plummet into the sea.

That's more like it... By isolating himself, Vaarsuvius removed a potential threat to the cleric in the group. Still have to wonder, though, because this isn't really emphasized in the comic...

[factotum]

Yes, they could've all gone Wind Walking to Azure City ... and straight into Mama Black Dragon's Anti-Magic Field.

Wind Walk allows you to fly at 600' per round. An Ancient Black Dragon's flying speed is a quarter of that. Seems pretty unlikely she'd be able to do an intercept, especially since she'd have to leave it until they were well clear of the fleet. (And before you say that she could just Teleport in front of them, you need a clear mental image of the location before you do a teleport--a random point in the middle of the sky isn't going to work).

[CarpeGuitarrem]

You know. I was honestly, truly, really moved by this episode. I'm empathizing with two yellow eyes in a spot of blackness.....

WHAT'S WRONG WITH ME?????

*joins the MitD fanclub with enthusiasm*

[dancrilis]

Is it just me are do the backs of Xykon's heads look incredible foreboding?

The kind of foreboding that seems to indicate that V is in a lot more trouble then just maybe losing.

Consider this if Xykon introduced Nale to Sabine, and if Xykon has been working loosely with the fiends for a while, then this could all be a set up.
And remember the fiends never stated that they could not claim control of V while V was alive neither did they say that they could not control V while the splice was in place.

Also the fiends have a long term plan and an agreement with evil gods which could include the Dark One.


I don’t find the above likely but something about the back of Xykon’s head is telling me that V is in serious danger.

Maybe the fact that you can see him grinning.

[Zanaril]

He's a skeleton. He can't not grin.

[Dagren]

Wind Walk allows you to fly at 600' per round. An Ancient Black Dragon's flying speed is a quarter of that. Seems pretty unlikely she'd be able to do an intercept, especially since she'd have to leave it until they were well clear of the fleet. (And before you say that she could just Teleport in front of them, you need a clear mental image of the location before you do a teleport--a random point in the middle of the sky isn't going to work).Agreed if she was trying to intercept them from the side, but if she knew where they were heading, she could Teleport to a spot near Greysky, then come to meet them head on. That would probably work. (Give her invisibility or something so they don't see her coming and evade)

[Kaytara]

Wind Walk allows you to fly at 600' per round. An Ancient Black Dragon's flying speed is a quarter of that. Seems pretty unlikely she'd be able to do an intercept, especially since she'd have to leave it until they were well clear of the fleet. (And before you say that she could just Teleport in front of them, you need a clear mental image of the location before you do a teleport--a random point in the middle of the sky isn't going to work).

In addition to what Dagren said, the Katos say that Durkon and Elan left the fleet days ago. That is, they've been flying for days. They're not elves, there's no way they haven't stopped to rest on the way to Greysky. So ambushing them somewhere in the wild would have been a ridiculously easy matter.

[Doug Lampert]

In addition to what Dagren said, the Katos say that Durkon and Elan left the fleet days ago. That is, they've been flying for days. They're not elves, there's no way they haven't stopped to rest on the way to Greysky. So ambushing them somewhere in the wild would have been a ridiculously easy matter.

This is the same ADB that was unwilling to take V on when hir was alone until he'd spent all hir high level spells taking him + a cleric + a bard on when they've used one whole spell.

Right. What the F**K makes anyone think she'd do that? We KNOW she wouldn't ambush V under vastly more favorable circumstances than you're assuming she'd have. We don't need to conjecture, she doesn't attack under those circumstances but waits for a better chance.

As for intercepting in the air with an AMF while invisible. Neet trick invisible +AMF. But what happens if she does? The spell fails, they FALL OUT of the AMF and the spell RESUMES (it's only suspended, not ended by the AMF) and they continue on their way at several times the ADB's best speed now knowing that she exists.

How is this a good plan?

V doesn't get ambushed until alone and out of spells or similarly vulnerable. V isn't that vulnerable with the group.

[shadzar]

V actually does better without the rest of the order around. The dragon, the use of the giant pikemen. V is vulnerable because of the order I would say.

[Kaytara]

Geez, calm down. What's it to you? O.O


This is the same ADB that was unwilling to take V on when hir was alone until he'd spent all hir high level spells taking him + a cleric + a bard on when they've used one whole spell.
"I only had one chance at surprise" is what she says. The implication here is that she was not afraid of being defeated, but rather afraid that Vaarsuvius would somehow get away from her during all the commotion if she were to attack a fleet.


As for intercepting in the air with an AMF while invisible. Neet trick invisible +AMF. But what happens if she does?
Right... So she couldn't, say, cast invisibility on herself, fly up to her targets and THEN cast AMF?

The spell fails, they FALL OUT of the AMF
The same way that Vaarsuvius fell out of the AMF after she closed in on him? Right. You may have noticed she didn't let that happen, but rather seized him in mid-air and crushed the hell out of him. Durkon is the only one she would have needed to worry about, and he isn't strong enough to take down an ancient dragon all by himself, much less one with a powerful breath weapon. Or, alternatively: swoop in, grab Vaarsuvius and then fly down to keep Durkon in the AMF until he's killed by the falling damage. Then do what she wants with the elf.


V doesn't get ambushed until alone and out of spells or similarly vulnerable. V isn't that vulnerable with the group.
So what you're saying is that, had the dragon attacked at night, opening with an AMF and pinning Vaarsuvius before blasting the hell out of Durkon and Elan... she would have been doomed to fail? An ancient dragon with an anti-magic field is a VERY powerful opponent. Durkon simply would not have been able to deal enough damage to kill the dragon before she killed him.

Now, you do have a point in that the dragon should have attacked Vaarsuvius a lot earlier while he was on the island. But that is more of an inconsistency than anything else. For example, since she had AMF, waiting until Vaarsuvius had run out of high-level spells makes no sense. The only explanation is drama - or, if we want to fluff it up, perhaps she wanted Vaarsuvius to be low on spells in order to inflict maximum psychological suffering on him.

To sum it up, perhaps she was not inclined to attack Vaarsuvius in less than perfect circumstances if she could help it, but on the available evidence she was certainly capable of it, and the presence of a cleric wouldn't have changed anything except force her to multi-task a little.

[David Argall]

This is the same ADB that was unwilling to take V on when hir was alone until he'd spent all hir high level spells taking him + a cleric + a bard on when they've used one whole spell.

What the F**K makes anyone think she'd do that? We KNOW she wouldn't ambush V under vastly more favorable circumstances than you're assuming she'd have. We don't need to conjecture, she doesn't attack under those circumstances but waits for a better chance.

V on the island wasn't going anywhere. So the dragon could afford to wait for a superior chance [and may have been told by the Oracle that there would be one]. The dragon is about a thousand years old and is presumably willing to be patient.
The flying party by contrast must be attacked or it may get away. Of course, the dragon is likely able to pick up the trail later, but it is a definite risk.
The dragon describes the fleet as a serious challenge. Cleric, bard, and mage are distinctly less. So faced with a risk V might escape, an ambush on the way is a definite option.

[DougTheHead]

Yes, they could've all gone Wind Walking to Azure City ... and straight into Mama Black Dragon's Anti-Magic Field. She surely wouldn't have hesitated to tackle just three opponents rather than an entire fleet, especially when all she'd have to do is intersect their path and then watch them plummet into the sea.

But remember, Mama Black Dragon wasn't willing to take on Vaarsuvius alone until s/he had expended almost all of his/her high-level spell slots. I doubt the black dragon would even make a play for a fully-loaded V with a Cleric and a Bard. And as people have already mentioned, Wind Walk is fast enough that the party could get to ground whenever they first see her.

[shadzar]

Geez, calm down. What's it to you? O.O

Who me? O.o

[Selene]

I don't think he'd have to "come up" with it; I think he's already thought of it, while listening to the conversation. "Never mistake not caring for not knowing."

I do agree he'd use stew instead if that would work. Redcloak would also use stew if he were listening, but I don't think he's paying attention.

Not caring (i.e. disinterest) was kind of my point. Xykon's not the sitting around arguing in metaphors type, IMO. He's more the direct action type. Redcloak, I don't know. He's not as predictable.

[Kaytara]

Who me? O.o

Heh, no. XD Your post got caught in-between while I was typing. I meant Doug Lampert, since it usually looks rather odd to me when people start using swear words when talking about fictional characters, and so early in the debate, too...

DougTheHead, what you've said has already been addressed. :/ V, Cleric and Bard? Elan doesn't count, he never does. Unless he's going to cause the dragon to combust due to bad puns, there's no way in hell he's influencing this battle. Vaarsuvius is completely and utterly helpless when caught in an AMF and Durkon, while somewhat tougher, isn't tough enough to stand his ground against a huge dragon. As David said, the dragon was likely willing to wait until V ran out of spells because she didn't mind waiting. If she realised that she would soon get the only real chance she'd ever get, she likely wouldn't be quite as picky.

[Frogpop]

But remember, Mama Black Dragon wasn't willing to take on Vaarsuvius alone until s/he had expended almost all of his/her high-level spell slots. I doubt the black dragon would even make a play for a fully-loaded V with a Cleric and a Bard. And as people have already mentioned, Wind Walk is fast enough that the party could get to ground whenever they first see her.

But remember, taking on V wasn't even really the point. She was waiting for V to be all tapped out so that she could taunt V, tell V about her plan to kill and bind V's family, and then go off to kill and bind V's family! ..while V was powerless to interfere, but able to suffer.

[rhydon]

I'm not sure if anyone's thought of this, but what if the Monster-In-Darkness is black-dragon related? V may have already set himself up for problems.

Also, V is facing both Redcloak AND Xykon. He's running the risk of say, dispel evil, etc. on his floating companions. They'll also get two actions for each of his.

[factotum]

As David said, the dragon was likely willing to wait until V ran out of spells because she didn't mind waiting. If she realised that she would soon get the only real chance she'd ever get, she likely wouldn't be quite as picky.

How would she know it was the only real chance she'd ever get? Neither her nor V's family are going to die any time soon--if it takes her fifty years to get her vengeance then V and his family would still be there, waiting. As for whoever said the ABD could just teleport to Greysky and wait for them--how would she know that's where they're heading? The only way she could find that out would be by attacking the fleet, unless you assume a gigantic invisible black dragon was sitting hunched up in the cabin when Haley's Sending arrived. Oh, and she would also have to have been to Greysky before to be able to teleport there.

[Teatime]

Strange theory that popped into my head, based on the interesting camera angle from which we see Xykon and Redcloak.

People pointed out that it's odd they seem to be in the same room as MitD and O-Chul, and that they weren't reacting to O-Chul's swaying of MitD's loyalties. I got an image of Vaarsuvius beginning a long rant about how he will now end this once and for all, solve Roy's quest for him using the power of arcane, yadda yadda, only to have MitD pipe up and ask why V is talking to his Xykon and Redcloak dolls. He will then go on to explain that Xykon and Redcloak left a while ago, and the city is now under full Hobgoblin control. V will have another breakdown due to his inability to do anything.

Don't know if this theory was brought up yet in eight pages. I'm sure not reading through all of them to check!

[Sotris]

Wind Walk allows you to fly at 600' per round. An Ancient Black Dragon's flying speed is a quarter of that. Seems pretty unlikely she'd be able to do an intercept, especially since she'd have to leave it until they were well clear of the fleet. (And before you say that she could just Teleport in front of them, you need a clear mental image of the location before you do a teleport--a random point in the middle of the sky isn't going to work).Kind of irrelevant, but that reminds me of something I've thought of before... How long would it take for Durkon and Elan to wind walk from the fleet to Greysky city? If it was more than 19 minutes and 41 seconds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html) (probably quite less, considering the entire *ahem* process that would have to be performed by the imp), then the fiends were lying to V about the alternative method he supposedly had. The imp would teleport to the fleet, having chopped off V's head, only to find the rest of the Order already gone.

[Kaytara]

How would she know it was the only real chance she'd ever get? Neither her nor V's family are going to die any time soon--if it takes her fifty years to get her vengeance then V and his family would still be there, waiting.
Due to the speed with which adventurers level, waiting fifty years would be inadvisable. You are correct in that she may have decided to just stalk the whole party after its reunion and strike when they were all injured, weakened and out of spells (such as after a battle with Xykon, for example), but that would mean choosing between facing the whole party and less than half the party (since Elan doesn't really count as combat power), and the choice should be obvious.


As for whoever said the ABD could just teleport to Greysky and wait for them--how would she know that's where they're heading? The only way she could find that out would be by attacking the fleet, unless you assume a gigantic invisible black dragon was sitting hunched up in the cabin when Haley's Sending arrived. Oh, and she would also have to have been to Greysky before to be able to teleport there.
The evidence is right there in the comic. She has been watching Vaarsuvius quite regularly it seems, enough to get to know his habits, personality, Therkla's existence, and the fact that Vaarsuvius left the fleet of his own free will. Therefore, the odds are high that she would have been watching them.


Kind of irrelevant, but that reminds me of something I've thought of before... How long would it take for Durkon and Elan to wind walk from the fleet to Greysky city? If it was more than 19 minutes and 41 seconds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html) (probably quite less, considering the entire *ahem* process that would have to be performed by the imp), then the fiends were lying to V about the alternative method he supposedly had. The imp would teleport to the fleet, having chopped off V's head, only to find the rest of the Order already gone.

It took them WAY longer than twenty minutes. Remember, Kazumi says that they left days ago.
It has already been pointed out on several occasions, but yes, this does mean that Durkon was Windwalking somewhere while V was making his decision.

[Adeptus]

Wow.

O'Chul is a really cool paladin... and the mysterious MitD is coming to focus a bit more now.

[Gamerlord]

good comic but can someone answer a D&D question for me?(My monster manual is not available for my use right now)

Can someone turn a person into a lich against said persons will?

after seeing the odds being so stacked against V I was just wondering....

[Dr. Cthulwho]

V actually does better without the rest of the order around. The dragon, the use of the giant pikemen. V is vulnerable because of the order I would say.

I don't know if I'd say that. V does better without the Order provided luck is on his side or someone else helps.

The Death Knight took down the giant soldiers and would have killed V if it weren't for the falling dragon head (courtesy of Roy). And V was well and truly out of it with the ABD until the intervention of Qarr and the IFCC, and it's pretty clear that accepting their deal is going to come back to bite at some point.

V came up with the plan to defeat the giant fiend, but was aided in its successful execution. Plus times like vs. Leeky or while paralyzed in Xykon's dungeon show that having the Order around can definitely be good for V.

[Omegonthesane]

good comic but can someone answer a D&D question for me?(My monster manual is not available for my use right now)

Can someone turn a person into a lich against said persons will?

after seeing the odds being so stacked against Xykon I was just wondering....
Fixed that for you.

[Dagren]

Also, V is facing both Redcloak AND Xykon. He's running the risk of say, dispel evil, etc. on his floating companions. They'll also get two actions for each of his.What kind of villain takes Dispel Evil? More to the point, what kind of villain is stupid enough to cast it on one of the good guys?


It has already been pointed out on several occasions, but yes, this does mean that Durkon was Windwalking somewhere while V was making his decision.I would say he might already have arrived at Greysky, and be walking through the streets. It's a pretty close call.

[Kareasint]

Also, V is facing both Redcloak AND Xykon. He's running the risk of say, dispel evil, etc. on his floating companions. They'll also get two actions for each of his.

The Splice has the Quicken Spell feat. V can cast one additional spell per round as a result but the spell is four levels higher. Since we have two Epic level casters here, the chance of one of them have the Epic feat Multispell is pretty good. Each level of that feat allows one additional quickened spell per round.

It is going to depend on who gets first shot and what they do with it. V might have surprise at the moment. However, knowing V, he will waste it bragging about his new UAB.


Can someone turn a person into a lich against said persons will?

No, the description of the Lich states that the character must be willing to do it.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm

[Zanaril]

What kind of villain takes Dispel Evil? More to the point, what kind of villain is stupid enough to cast it on one of the good guys?

And V is obviously a good guy/girl at the moment? :smalltongue:

[The Pilgrim]

But remember, taking on V wasn't even really the point. She was waiting for V to be all tapped out so that she could taunt V, tell V about her plan to kill and bind V's family, and then go off to kill and bind V's family! ..while V was powerless to interfere, but able to suffer.

Exactly. ABD didn't want to take any risk at all. Just waiting, no matter how long, to the moment in witch V would be totally helpless.

And, ABD being a Dragon, and V being an Elf... ABD had a LOT of time available to wait.

You humans with your short lifespan always want to do everything in a rush.

[Rotipher]

And how many more levels was V likely to gain in the meantime, had Mama sat back and waited for years to take her revenge? Adventurers gain power at a much faster rate than dragons, and especially older dragons, do. So even if both Mama and V were still alive in fifty years, the elf would most likely be able to wipe the floor with her by that point, even without the Soul Splice. Sure, Mama could've waited a few more months if that made tactical sense, but assuming that she'd patiently defer her vengeance for decades is unrealistic.

Even long-lived races have to be capable of operating fast when they're on a deadline. Otherwise, they'd never survive to be long-lived.

[factotum]

When I said "50 years" I was exaggerating to make my point. What I was trying to say was pretty much exactly what you've just said--both elves and dragons are long-lived races; the ABD does not need to attempt her revenge immediately.

As for various people saying she'd have gone after V while he was with Durkon and Elan because that would make better odds...er, hello? This is the same Black Dragon who'd been watching V on that island for several days without making her move! She didn't attempt to attack until V had used all of his high-level spells. This Black Dragon who would apparently have been willing to face V, Elan and Durkon at the same time must be some other black dragon, because I'm sure not seeing it in this one...

[Omegonthesane]

When I said "50 years" I was exaggerating to make my point. What I was trying to say was pretty much exactly what you've just said--both elves and dragons are long-lived races; the ABD does not need to attempt her revenge immediately.

As for various people saying she'd have gone after V while he was with Durkon and Elan because that would make better odds...er, hello? This is the same Black Dragon who'd been watching V on that island for several days without making her move! She didn't attempt to attack until V had used all of his high-level spells. This Black Dragon who would apparently have been willing to face V, Elan and Durkon at the same time must be some other black dragon, because I'm sure not seeing it in this one...

You missed the point made earlier that the dragon has all the time in the world now V has been separated from his compatriots - a luxury it can do the job, thanks to the gamebreaker combo of AMF and being a dragon. If it had to, it would easily drop V, Elan, and Durkon all at once, it would just have to put actual effort into it.

[Y'nokhs]

Oh, foolish elf,
It's a classic plotline. Just as O'chul was about to convince :mitd:to switch sides, V barges in, giving :mitd: a clear course of action to take. My prediction:
Though nearly evenly matched, V will overpower Xyklon and Redcloak. As :mitd: sees his "friends" being beat up, he intervenes, defeating V and placing him firmly back on the side of team evil. And if :mitd: is really a Dungeonbred Tarresque (like I strongly suspect) V is SCREWED

[Wolf_Plague]

My prediction:

The only way I see V can avoid paying his debt to fiends(which would lead to an unspeakable evil) is to destroy their point of interest - his own soul.
One interesting resolution of this conflict could be V throwing himself into Snarl, thus ending all plans fiends got for him. Fate of Xykon is unknown, he could survive the fight or be shattered so his bones land within 1000f of Gerards Gate, but no matter what, with V existing, there is a threat to the balance of good and evil itself.
I think if V was desperate enough to use Familicide to secure his family, he definitely can consider an option of Suicide, with fate of the whole setting on stake, thus being first member of main cast Killed Off For Real.

And I hope I'm wrong.

[Janmorel]

Oh, foolish elf,
It's a classic plotline. Just as O'chul was about to convince :mitd:to switch sides, V barges in, giving :mitd: a clear course of action to take. My prediction:
Though nearly evenly matched, V will overpower Xyklon and Redcloak. As :mitd: sees his "friends" being beat up, he intervenes, defeating V and placing him firmly back on the side of team evil. And if :mitd: is really a Dungeonbred Tarresque (like I strongly suspect) V is SCREWED

On the other hand,
This doesn't necessarily need to derail O'chul's conversion efforts. Regardless of what V's motivations actually are, one could make a pretty good argument that he's not acting on the behalf of Good at the moment. V could inadvertently tip the scales in O'chul's favor -- if Xykon and Redcloak want to throw the MitD at the scary pointy elf, and O'chul tries to protect him from it, it could convince the MitD to change loyalties.
Or not. But there is definitely more than one way that this could play out.

[factotum]

You missed the point made earlier that the dragon has all the time in the world now V has been separated from his compatriots - a luxury it can do the job, thanks to the gamebreaker combo of AMF and being a dragon. If it had to, it would easily drop V, Elan, and Durkon all at once, it would just have to put actual effort into it.

Which just brings us back to the old "how DOES a dragon catch someone who's travelling four times faster than she can fly?". Basically, you're assuming that she was not only watching the fleet closely enough to find out where Durkon and the others were going, but also that she'd been to Greysky City before and could thus teleport there to arrange some sort of ambush. Either that, or she just happened to be hovering on the direct line between the fleet and Greysky and could thus intercept the three despite their huge speed advantage. I just don't find either scenario very likely, I'm afraid.

[Kaytara]

Which just brings us back to the old "how DOES a dragon catch someone who's travelling four times faster than she can fly?". Basically, you're assuming that she was not only watching the fleet closely enough to find out where Durkon and the others were going, but also that she'd been to Greysky City before and could thus teleport there to arrange some sort of ambush. Either that, or she just happened to be hovering on the direct line between the fleet and Greysky and could thus intercept the three despite their huge speed advantage. I just don't find either scenario very likely, I'm afraid.

Tricky does not equal impossible.

But anyway. You keep forgetting to address the fact that they wouldn't have been travelling for 24 hours a day. The journey took several days, Durkon and Elan at least would have needed to sleep. So it's just a matter of scrying for them to acquaint yourself with the location and then popping in with a Greater Teleport. Where is the problem here?

[Warren Dew]

The only way I see V can avoid paying his debt to fiends(which would lead to an unspeakable evil) is to destroy their point of interest - his own soul.
One interesting resolution of this conflict could be V throwing himself into Snarl, thus ending all plans fiends got for him. Fate of Xykon is unknown, he could survive the fight or be shattered so his bones land within 1000f of Gerards Gate, but no matter what, with V existing, there is a threat to the balance of good and evil itself.

Come to think of it, depending on how epic teleport works, Vaarsuvius could teleport Xykon and self to Girard's gate either before or after the impending battle.

[Y'nokhs]

This doesn't necessarily need to derail O'chul's conversion efforts. Regardless of what V's motivations actually are, one could make a pretty good argument that he's not acting on the behalf of Good at the moment. V could inadvertently tip the scales in O'chul's favor -- if Xykon and Redcloak want to throw the MitD at the scary pointy elf, and O'chul tries to protect him from it, it could convince the MitD to change loyalties.

True, but
though one could argue that V is not on the side of Good, I doubt the MITD has a high enough INT to understand such a subtle argument. I get the feeling that, like a child, the MITD wants attention. Now that Xykon and Redcloak are ignoring him, and O'chul is "playing" with him, he tends to listen to O'chul. But suddenly thrust back into the Team Evil spotlight, especially if he wins the battle for them, he will forget about O'chul. As for the elf being scary, fear was certainly not the MITD's first reaction to V. In fact, he seems to have no concept of injury or death at all (see his attempts to play with Miko and Belkar as they were attacking him)

[Shatteredtower]

Kaytara, the dragon could have attacked while V was not properly conscious, but did not. The idea that she would pass up such an opportunity, but pit herself against 3 spellcasters (she thought Elan could have been a problem or she wouldn't have mentioned him), is implausible. She can't teleport until the round after she dismisses her antimagic. Wind Walk takes only a round to cast and touch the recipients. Too many variables for someone who'd waited until V had burned every 6th level spell slot. She wanted V helpless and knowing what was to come. That was less likely with such allies.

Also, adventurers do not race through levels. PCs do, as do their most significant nemeses. A dragon with class levels and a personal grudge ought to be very significant.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

What kind of villain takes Dispel Evil?

A villain prepared for anything might, as well as one who could be challenged by other evil/villainous forces.


More to the point, what kind of villain is stupid enough to cast it on one of the good guys?

Why not cast it on a good guy if the good guy is showing certain signs (such as V is)?

[factotum]

Kaytara, the dragon could have attacked while V was not properly conscious, but did not. The idea that she would pass up such an opportunity, but pit herself against 3 spellcasters (she thought Elan could have been a problem or she wouldn't have mentioned him), is implausible. She can't teleport until the round after she dismisses her antimagic. Wind Walk takes only a round to cast and touch the recipients.

I agree with this--we know that V was attempting to trance at least once on the island, which would presumably have provided an opportunity for the ABD to sneak up on him that she didn't take. Also, do we know when V started forgetting to shield himself against scrying? If that was mostly down to his frustration at not being able to find Haley, once he knew exactly where she was he would most likely be able to trance and also do the anti-scrying shield.

[Kaytara]

Kaytara, the dragon could have attacked while V was not properly conscious, but did not. The idea that she would pass up such an opportunity, but pit herself against 3 spellcasters (she thought Elan could have been a problem or she wouldn't have mentioned him), is implausible. She can't teleport until the round after she dismisses her antimagic. Wind Walk takes only a round to cast and touch the recipients. Too many variables for someone who'd waited until V had burned every 6th level spell slot. She wanted V helpless and knowing what was to come. That was less likely with such allies.


This exact argument has been brought up before. Why do I have to keep repeating my own and other people's points?

To sum it up: She waited until the truly perfect moment because she saw that V wasn't going anywhere and could afford to wait. Everything we know about her abilities indicates that she did not need to wait. Indeed, if she had cast AMF before attacking, she wouldn't have needed to worry about spells, high-level ones or no, so her line about waiting until V ran out of high-level spells makes no sense in that context.

Vaarsuvius was completely outmatched and the presence of one similarly-levelled cleric (and bard) wouldn't have changed anything.


She can't teleport until the round after she dismisses her antimagic. Wind Walk takes only a round to cast and touch the recipients.
Sorry, but you're truly grasping at straws now. All you've proven is that she is less likely to succeed if she teleports right into the middle of their camp (which would be stupid), not that she is unlikely to succeed at all. How about covering herself with invisibility, teleporting to a few dozen feet away, casting AMF and THEN attacking? Attacking targets, may I remind you, that have no Spot checks worth a damn, are at least mostly asleep and need to get their bearings before they figure out what to do about being attacked by a frickin' HUGE black dragon? XD


Also, adventurers do not race through levels. PCs do, as do their most significant nemeses. A dragon with class levels and a personal grudge ought to be very significant.
Origins seems to contradict this. Haley says that "adventuring is like the high lane to power", not "PC-hood" or anything like that, and we've seen other adventuring groups that presumably also get XP quickly or Haley and Roy levelling together with them would make no sense.

Also, being a rival or a nemesis implies having more or less equal abilities, which is clearly not the case here. The dragon herself says that "Without your magic, you are nothing. And with it... you are still less than I am."


Also, do we know when V started forgetting to shield himself against scrying? If that was mostly down to his frustration at not being able to find Haley, once he knew exactly where she was he would most likely be able to trance and also do the anti-scrying shield.

"Most likely"? How is it "most likely"? The dragon says that once she had V's name, scrying for him was easy enough, not "became easy enough" or "was much easier". This implies that she did not attempt to scry for him before getting his name. In short, we do not know if Vaarsuvius has EVER shielded himself from scrying, so whether he would have spontaneously started to do so on his way to Greysky City is anyone's guess. Even if he did, there's no guarantee Durkon and Elan would have done the same.

[homeosapiens]

Well, about your argument -we dont have any proof that collosal devil was any weaker then ABD. She might have been afraid of meeting the same fate.

+I is time for a next strip :/.

Geez i hate waiting ;-( .

[Dagren]

Origins seems to contradict this. Haley says that "adventuring is like the high lane to power", not "PC-hood" or anything like that, and we've seen other adventuring groups that presumably also get XP quickly or Haley and Roy levelling together with them would make no sense.I'm of the opinion that "Adventurer" and "PC" are more or less synonymous in Stick-land. I mean, nobody ever said that the Order are the only PCs, did they? (If they did and I missed it, please disregard this)

[homeosapiens]

But no one said on the contrary. Those are the only PC's we have seen.