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View Full Version : Protecting your MacGuffin.



Justin B.
2009-05-07, 05:21 PM
So, in a Forgotten Realms campaign I'm currently playing, our goal is to collect a great and powerful artifact of healing. It is a gem cut into an eight pointed star, and millenia ago it was broken up by a demonlord, who then charged the forces of evil all over Toril to keep the 8 pieces of the star protected from the forces of Good.

At this point, we have a single piece of the star, but my character is the cautious type (high-Wisdom Cleric of Corellon Lariethian) and knows that evil forces will soon be coming to retrieve the artifact from us, so I am trying to think of the best ways to protect this artifact of magnificent healing abilities.

Here is what I have so far:

We've made a simple wooden case bound in cold iron, which my DM has ruled looks exactly like regular iron. This is to help deter demons from handling the case, while allowing it to appear inocuous to others.

The case is lead lined to block from most divinations.

The case is locked with both an Arcane Lock and a DC 30 regular lock (for now, I plan to purchase a more difficult lock in the future.)

Inside of the case, a leather bandoleer has been constructed with pockets for each of the eight shards of the star.

What I plan to do is:

Put a teleportation trap or contingency on the case, so that anyone who opens the case without saying a specific password will find that the bandoleer inside has suddenly teleported to another location, probably a secured, lead lined vault in the middle of a well-protected city, hopefully with quite a few traps of it's own on it.

The bandolieer itself will have a similar trap or contingency that will cause each individual pocket to teleport the individual pieces of the star to various different safe locations. On the outside of the bandoleer there will be many various phrases and riddles in many different languages, all pointing to a possible hint about what password for opening the bandoleer. None of the solutions will be the correct word, merely serving as a tactic for misdirection.

I also intend to have another, more elaborate case made, perhaps with an engraving of an eight pointed star, and gold and silver traceries, and an elaborate expensive lock and gaudy key to go with it. This case will be empty, to distract any would-be artifact thieves from the real star, whihc is located in the much more mundane case elsewhere in the parties possession.


Those are my ideas. What else would you folks do to protect your all powerful artifact?

Tiki Snakes
2009-05-07, 05:34 PM
Put it in your pants. No, really. Better yet, work on your muscular control, wrap it in a some sheep-gut or something, and make it a suppository macguffin.

I'd like to see the pickpocket roll to snatch THAT.

Plus, it's going to always count as attended, is in a dark, unidentifiable place, no line of sight, no line of effect. Plus you can't go wrong with giving the BBEG a close close-up view of the interior of your colon in exchange for him trying to spy on you. Eh?

[edit - The idea is to break your dm to the extent that he loses all interest in screwing you out of the Crystal thingy, but it could backfire depending on how resistant to toilet humour your dm is. :) Not a tactic for the feint of heart, or loose of, ya know.]

monty
2009-05-07, 05:54 PM
Do you have to be able to retrieve it in the future? If not, then that opens up some better options.

Justin B.
2009-05-07, 06:19 PM
Tiki: Getting all 8 of the shards up there might be a problem.

Monty: Retrievable is a must.

Kosjsjach
2009-05-07, 06:30 PM
Call me crazy, but what's wrong with the Secret Chest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/secretChest.htm) spell? Are your enemies likely to have allies/denizens on the Ethereal Plane?

Berserk Monk
2009-05-07, 06:30 PM
Why would making the case out of cold iron prevent demons from touching it? Just because it can bypass their DR, doesn't mean it instantly harms them when they touch it. Unless it has spikes jutting forth from it, I don't see how it will stop any demons from running off with it. Humans have the same odds of being hurt with a cold iron weapon as well as most other creatures. Do you get harmed when you pick up the box.

herrhauptmann
2009-05-07, 06:31 PM
Doesn't the leomund chest spell serve adequately for this as well? I like your leadlined bunker idea too.
You could just put the chest in there to start with, teleport to it as needed when you gain a piece.
-Line the walls with various Symbols, nondetection and a permanent Consecrate spell. Definitely mess up the day of anyone who manages to teleport to it without permission.
All you'd have to deal with after that is someone 'accidentally' finding it. Say some duergar are following a mineral seam and discover your underground vault. Or a mage using, what is it, passwall that creates a tunnel a few hundred feet long? That'd be even worse, he'd passwall his way in by accident, and all your symbol spells would have gotten negated because the wall they're written on no longer exists.
-If you want to create duplicates for misdirection purposes, let the fakes have a trap set up that makes the old portable hole/bag of holding trick. If they can't find the trap (and you better keep upgrading the trap DC as you level up), they'll get blasted to astral plane or whatever with no save.
-Would Shrink Item work on your artifact? If so, name your group "Company of the Gemstone" or somesuch, and you've got a group insignia, which is the completed gem. It can be on a cloak, armband, shirt etc. And as you gain the pieces, use Shrink Item/Permanency/ (and spell that hides magic auras) and sew/sovereign glue the gem piece to someone's insignia.

What level is your party currently anyway?

Justin B.
2009-05-07, 06:55 PM
Call me crazy, but what's wrong with the Secret Chest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/secretChest.htm) spell? Are your enemies likely to have allies/denizens on the Ethereal Plane?

We're dealing with a Demonlord's directive to all evil beings, I'm not counting this out. Anything with evil alignment would drool at the chance of destroying such a gigantic artifact of Good. Not to mention, if it is with us physically at all times, we have a better chance of foiling whoever is going after it. Leaving is stationary and secured is a secondary option considering the resources we are going against. Think Fellowship of the Ring, secrecy is our best defense. If it is constantly moving, it will be much harder to pin down.


Why would making the case out of cold iron prevent demons from touching it? Just because it can bypass their DR, doesn't mean it instantly harms them when they touch it. Unless it has spikes jutting forth from it, I don't see how it will stop any demons from running off with it. Humans have the same odds of being hurt with a cold iron weapon as well as most other creatures. Do you get harmed when you pick up the box.

It's not unknown for creatures to have a natural aversion to the things that overcome their damage reduction. Any little bit helps.



-Line the walls with various Symbols, nondetection and a permanent Consecrate spell. Definitely mess up the day of anyone who manages to teleport to it without permission.

Yes, this is a good idea, unfortunately I'm currently level 8, and I am the highest level in the party, not quite an option yet, but a definate plan when these kind of resources become available to us.


If you want to create duplicates for misdirection purposes, let the fakes have a trap set up that makes the old portable hole/bag of holding trick. If they can't find the trap (and you better keep upgrading the trap DC as you level up), they'll get blasted to astral plane or whatever with no save.


My only issue with this is that the artifact itself may be lost as well. Which is something we definately do not want.



-Would Shrink Item work on your artifact? If so, name your group "Company of the Gemstone" or somesuch, and you've got a group insignia, which is the completed gem. It can be on a cloak, armband, shirt etc. And as you gain the pieces, use Shrink Item/Permanency/ (and spell that hides magic auras) and sew/sovereign glue the gem piece to someone's insignia.

This might be something to consider for misdirection purposes. The only issue I might see is that we don't want to leave the gem shards too exposed. Considering it's an artifact it probably isn't subject to shrinking anyway.

Aquillion
2009-05-07, 07:05 PM
Anything with evil alignment would drool at the chance of destroying such a gigantic artifact of Good.This is an important point, and something you might want to keep in mind. They want to destroy it, not steal it. So your box actually isn't as useful as you might think -- a demon can steal it and toss it into a sphere of annihilation, say, without ever bothering to read your pretty misdirections or worry about the locks and traps and contingencies at all. (They might not know for sure it's inside, but if they're that eager they're going to just destroy every container you have.)

So I would make the contingency something that includes that case -- make it "whenever the box is about to be opened or destroyed", or even just "whenever the artifact is about to be destroyed" if you need something simpler.. Depending on how complicated your DM lets you make contingencies, you could also have it teleport away just before anyone attempts to dispel the contingency itself, though that's pushing it.

Once you're high enough level to do so, putting an Instant Summons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/instantSummons.htm) on the artifact is also a good idea.

Also, you don't necessarily need to put it inside an actual container. I assume that it's immune to day-to-day damage from high temperatures and smashing? You could, for instance, forge it into some large metal object, such as a sword or armor (coat the artifact itself in lead, of course, so its presence in there can't be detected.) You can get it out by smashing or melting the object containing it, but most other people will have no reason to know it's inside. A box obviously contains something; a sword doesn't. (And, of course, with Instant Summons you can fetch it from inside of whatever object you've placed it inside of very easily.)

This assumes you don't have to access it regularly, though, only when you really, really need it.

How big is it? What are its dimensions?

Justin B.
2009-05-07, 07:26 PM
This is an important point, and something you might want to keep in mind. They want to destroy it, not steal it. So your box actually isn't as useful as you might think -- a demon can steal it and toss it into a sphere of annihilation, say, without ever bothering to read your pretty misdirections or worry about the locks and traps and contingencies at all. (They might not know for sure it's inside, but if they're that eager they're going to just destroy every container you have.)

Mm, perhaps I should have mentioned that I don't believe it can be destroyed entirely. The reason it has to be collected and put back together is because the Demonlord acquired it and shattered it into 8 pieces, and sent them all around Toril. If it could have been destroyed, why didn't he do it then?



Once you're high enough level to do so, putting an Instant Summons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/instantSummons.htm) on the artifact is also a good idea.

Very good idea, however, the artifact is a series of eight identical pieces, so I would need one for each piece until we can put it all together again. Still, definately worth the effort, if we can manage it.



Also, you don't necessarily need to put it inside an actual container. I assume that it's immune to day-to-day damage from high temperatures and smashing? You could, for instance, forge it into some large metal object, such as a sword or armor (coat the artifact itself in lead, of course, so its presence in there can't be detected.) You can get it out by smashing or melting the object containing it, but most other people will have no reason to know it's inside. A box obviously contains something; a sword doesn't. (And, of course, with Instant Summons you can fetch it from inside of whatever object you've placed it inside of very easily.)

This is a good idea, however, the individual shards themselves have potent healing abilities that may be useful. For instance, the first shard we've acquired can cast the Heal spell once a week, and the DM said that getting more shards will increase the powers of all the Shards we possess.

Perhaps there is a work-around for this though. The shards themselves are about three to four inches thick at the top, and about a half a foot long, narrowing to a point. When all the pieces come together, they form an eight pointed star. It's easily concievable that there be a hallow inside a sword hilt, lead lined of course, that one could slip a piece of the star into.

However, if the location of the Shards do get discovered, we've lost that second teleport that may be the critical factor in deciding who keeps what pieces, unless of course the vaults themselves have teleport traps on them, which is not only tedious, but also hilarious.

By the way, you are all being amazingly helpful, please keep it up.

Tiki Snakes
2009-05-07, 08:09 PM
Tiki: Getting all 8 of the shards up there might be a problem.


That's what the rest of the party is for. Also, magic items that aid diplomacy checks, cause, yeah, I'll admit good luck with that one. :D

Emy
2009-05-07, 08:14 PM
Would the Hoard Gullet spell from Dragon Magic help? It's similar to having a bag of holding... in your stomach. So pickpockets or whatever other minions won't be able to just grab/sunder it off of you. It has a one hour per level duration, which at your level means you'll need 2 spell slots per day to keep it going all the time.

Waspinator
2009-05-07, 08:42 PM
If you do go with keeping it in some kind of box, layer the box with as many materials as you can. Wood, lead, cold iron, mithral, adamantine... You never know when one of those might block some obscure effect or divination spell. Also, stick some garlic in with it, just in case. I'm always a little paranoid about vampires and other forms of undead....

Then make sure to make copies of the box. The others don't need all of the defensive mechanisms or fancy materials; just give each party member one and make sure noone opens them when they could be observed. If someone wants to steal the thing from you, they'll have to guess who actually has it even if they know what the box looks like.

Duff
2009-05-07, 08:42 PM
Also, your dummy caskets shouldn't be empty, it should hold the best forgery you can manage, possibly with the best hired/constructed body guard genuinely believing it is the artefact (so when the demon eats it they produce a genuine heart rending "Noooooooo"

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-07, 11:02 PM
Cast Polymorph any Object on it into...wait for it...a tooth!

Then punch your friend in the mouth. While he splutters at you, stick the gem where one of his teeth were and activate the Heal ability...now hes simply very confused.

Then, to top it off, use a scroll of Modify Memory on him and a scroll of Programmed Amnesia on yourself, triggered to remind you whenever you get another gem. That way, no one can torture it from your teammates or you.

Kosjsjach
2009-05-08, 12:46 AM
Would the Hoard Gullet spell from Dragon Magic help? It's similar to having a bag of holding... in your stomach. So pickpockets or whatever other minions won't be able to just grab/sunder it off of you. It has a one hour per level duration, which at your level means you'll need 2 spell slots per day to keep it going all the time.

I think this might be your best bet.
Heck, if your DM allows custom magic items, a throat-slot item of continuous hoard gullet should cost you all of 2000gp. For an extra-dimensional hide-away space that can't be taken from you, that's pretty sweet.

UserClone
2009-05-08, 12:57 AM
Cast Polymorph any Object on it into...wait for it...a tooth!

Then punch your friend in the mouth. While he splutters at you, stick the gem where one of his teeth were and activate the Heal ability...now hes simply very confused.

Then, to top it off, use a scroll of Modify Memory on him and a scroll of Programmed Amnesia on yourself, triggered to remind you whenever you get another gem. That way, no one can torture it from your teammates or you.

This is freaking fantastic. I also love the Hoard Gullet idea, and the spell in general.

Hawriel
2009-05-08, 01:10 AM
Big complicated plan you have there. Do you have the recorses, mony, time and contacts to pull all that off? Thats pritty much a campaigne just to get that done. Alot can go wrong with that plan.

As for the cold iron being just a box.

Yes it would cause demons pain to touch it. Just like a warewolf touching silver. There is a reason why it bypasses their DR. Its their kryptonite. Wizards changed the folklor from normal iron to 'cold iron' to make is special.

Why bother making the box out of ordinary wood if your just going to bind it in iron, line it with lead, and enchant the crap out of it to the point it would glow like Elmenster's tower with detect magic?

edit
Oh yeah not only the time and mony but how are you going to keep that size of a project secret?

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-08, 01:15 AM
You could always get a scroll of polymorph any object and turn it into a grain of sand or something equally nondescript, with numerous anti-divination spells on it (including hiding its aura), along with an instant summons scroll. Teleport it to a planar location that is an infinite desert full of sand (maybe the temporal energy plane, as described in the Manual of the Planes?).

Find the World's Largest Dungeon and start spreading (false) rumors that the pieces are hidden somewhere inside. And that it's in the tarrasque's stomach. And in the throne-room of The Lady of Pain. In a stronghold of the illithids. Or maybe in an extradimensional pocket in Elminster's pipe. Or...hehe...the Tomb of Horrors.

Also, create a homunculus, give it the shard, and then find a scroll of imprisonment. Make sure you use the scroll either in some extremely difficult-to-reach place, somewhere incredibly nondescript, or in a bastion of good. Preferably after making things very difficult to reach that place (for anyone but you, that is).

Any spell durations you wish to place on the artifact can afterward be preserved via quintessence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/quintessence.htm).

quick_comment
2009-05-08, 02:19 AM
As has been mentioned before, put an instant summons on it, then toss it into a scrying protected pocket plane.

You can indiana jones it - use creation magic and/or leadership sweatshops to make a hundred thousand things that look just like it. Use eternal wands of nystul's magic aura to make them all look the same.

You can polymorph it into something else. PAO it into just about anything innocuous.

If you are high enough level to cast genesis, just create your own plane, make it impenetrable and store it there.

If one of you is a warforged, see if you can get the crystal installed in him.

If one of you is a paladin, give it to the mount to hold. It cant be much safer than in Celestia with the mount.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-05-08, 02:28 AM
I'm going to have to second the "suppository method;" though, if you want to be extra special, you can get someone to make screw-tight metal capsules, line the interior with lead, and go from there.

Now, not only will the object be extremely secure, but it won't even radiate for a detect magic, or similar divination spell.

Oh, and this'll be a heck of a lot cheaper too :smalltongue:

MickJay
2009-05-08, 03:30 AM
Don't make the box teleport away if touched/opened by someone without the password - make the person opening it get teleported somewhere else: into a pool of acid, active volcano, bottom of the sea, etc... :smalltongue:

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-08, 09:29 AM
Don't make the box teleport away if touched/opened by someone without the password - make the person opening it get teleported somewhere else: into a pool of acid, active volcano, bottom of the sea, etc... :smalltongue:

You want to teleport the item out, simply because The Forces of Evil [tm] are now aware of where the item in question is. The next wizard (or critter with spells or spell-likes) can just cast dimensional anchor on itself, and there you are.

If you teleport the artifact out, they have to waste precious time searching for it again, which gives you more time to go after it to protect it, if need be. (Just make sure you receive a Blue Screen 'o Death message each time it's found.)

Nothing says you can't teleport the finder out, too, though.

You could easily have a number of containers spread around the Realms, all nondescript but different-looking, which are keyed to have the MacGuffin transported to them in sequence. If one is found (and touched) by an evil creature and/or open, have the teleport spell bypass that particular box, and send it on to the next one. Still keep the instant summons on it, so you can call it to yourself at any time without having to worry about which box it's in.

I suppose you could PAO it into a small piece of ice and send it to the Elemental Plane of Water. Good luck having Evil find it when it melts and is now a fluid part of an entire infinity of water. Just make sure it has that permanent instant summoning on it first.

You DO realize you can cast from scrolls even if you're too low level, right? Make use of this fact.

JackQ
2009-05-08, 12:01 PM
Do you have a paladin in your party? Get saddlebags and place your protective box on his mount's saddlebags and have him dismiss the mount. The box is now protected in celestial realms.

Thajocoth
2009-05-08, 12:46 PM
You're spending a lot for negative gain.

The more convoluted you are when trying to hide something, check for traps, ect... The more ideas you give the GM. With each thing you add to it's protection, the more specific a would-be thief of it would need to be. In this way, unknown to you, you are creating that character... The character who fits the description perfectly enough to take your MacGuffin... And you're guaranteeing that he'll find the party while they're sleeping.

If a GM would have someone steal it, I can see that as being worth no more than a sidequest to get that piece back. Really... By being PCs on a quest, your victory should already be assured, so long as you don't get a TPK along the way.

Basically, whoever in the party would survive what is otherwise a TPK should take it (with the exception of any GMPCs). I don't know if Warforged have this in 3.5, or if a party member of yours even is one, but in 4, they're perfect for holding up to 20lbs of something secret in a secret compartment within, and when knocked out, they're very likely to get back up with time. Otherwise, I'd just put it in a backpack.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-08, 01:20 PM
As to the DM getting 'ideas,' what you need to do is misdirect him as well.

Write everything you're actually doing down on a sheet of paper, sealed in an envelope, and have it dated by a notary (just tell the DM that you did what's in the envelope, but don't tell him what it was). Then tell your DM what you want everyone else to know.

When the BBEG finds 'the MacGuffin' (as he suspects it to be), you can laugh in his face when you give the envelope to the DM.

:smallamused:

(Also, 6 little words to live by, when protecting something virtually indestructible: "I prepared explosive runes this morning." Note that they're of permanent duration, and you can have as many as you like. Few critters are immune to force damage. :smallamused:)

Limos
2009-05-08, 01:45 PM
Here's a thought. Cut open your beefiest characters chest cavity and secure the shards under his ribcage. Then sew him shut and use healing magic to close the wounds.

No line of sight or effect
Always attended
No way to pickpocket it
Don't have to put anything in your rectum

Radar
2009-05-08, 01:50 PM
You're spending a lot for negative gain.

The more convoluted you are when trying to hide something, check for traps, ect... The more ideas you give the GM. With each thing you add to it's protection, the more specific a would-be thief of it would need to be. In this way, unknown to you, you are creating that character... The character who fits the description perfectly enough to take your MacGuffin... And you're guaranteeing that he'll find the party while they're sleeping.

If a GM would have someone steal it, I can see that as being worth no more than a sidequest to get that piece back. Really... By being PCs on a quest, your victory should already be assured, so long as you don't get a TPK along the way.

Basically, whoever in the party would survive what is otherwise a TPK should take it (with the exception of any GMPCs). I don't know if Warforged have this in 3.5, or if a party member of yours even is one, but in 4, they're perfect for holding up to 20lbs of something secret in a secret compartment within, and when knocked out, they're very likely to get back up with time. Otherwise, I'd just put it in a backpack.
Yes and no. I'm not much of a DM, but i believe, that victory should not be assured - within PC's reach, but not certain. Even from players perspective it's better, because then your decisions are important. I wouldn't be able to fully enjoy an adventure, if my success was set in stone - where is the drama in it? As much as the players, DM also should not use out of character knowledge (or at least do it as little as possible) - if the villians can't know about something, they don't know it. Lycanthromancer written a very good solution to this problem.

Besides RPG games apart from acting are about being creative. Finding ingenius ways to solve various problems. Inventing a complicated safeguards for an artifact can be as fun as anything else - i certainly had a lot of fun reading all the ideas here. :-)

Stormthorn
2009-05-08, 02:04 PM
Start with your base chest but after you get most the crystals make the following modifications

Have some sort of hidden locking mechanism on the outside of the chest. Unless it is located and secured then a string will break when you open the chest. The string is tied to a bag of holding with the bandoleer inside that. It is suspended over a portable hole. The string breaks, the bag falls.

And coat the chest in Dragon Bile and layer Ungol Dust inside of it to deter anything vulnerable to poison.

Then have a bunch of fake locks and string-securing mechanisms. Have them set to cast Banishment or a lesser version.

Then, if possible, put it into a Living Vault.
Then Polymorph Any Object that vault (or just the chest) into a single gold coin with a slight physical differance from the standard gold coin (so that you can later retrieve it if needed) then mix it in with a few thousand gold coins and put them all inside of a Mimic (you will probably have to pay or feed it to get it to cooperate, but they arnt evil) and place the Mimic inside the lair of the most powerful good dragon you can find. In factm convince a whole herd of Mimics that life would be sweet living under a dragons protection, and have them all look like the same box.


Really... By being PCs on a quest, your victory should already be assured, so long as you don't get a TPK along the way.
Its this sort of metagame egotism that causes GMs to throw TPKs your way.

Venerable
2009-05-08, 02:05 PM
Let me see whether I understand the situation. Your goal is to obtain eight tiny MacGuffins, and you need to protect each one while you get the next. Arrayed against you is the entire host of Evil. Your current plan is to place multiple booby-traps around each MacGuffin, with layered fallbacks and misdirections.

Metagaming aside, you're gonna fail. It's pretty much impossible for a small group to out-think and out-plan a huge, diverse horde of opponents -- particularly opponents with a lot of power.

I suggest matching power with power. If this artifact is so Good, get the combined forces of Good to protect it for you. The Good powers will not want this thing destroyed! To that end, enlist clerics of Good religions (or even entire religious orders), get deities and devas involved, the whole nine yards. Ensure that every Evil attacker will face a comparable Good defender -- or, better yet, several stronger Good defenders.

You'll probably have to give up hope of possessing the MacGuffin once you restore it, but isn't that a small price to pay?

Stormthorn
2009-05-08, 02:38 PM
I suggest matching power with power. If this artifact is so Good, get the combined forces of Good to protect it for you. The Good powers will not want this thing destroyed! To that end, enlist clerics of Good religions (or even entire religious orders), get deities and devas involved, the whole nine yards. Ensure that every Evil attacker will face a comparable Good defender -- or, better yet, several stronger Good defenders.


Good idea. Convince that good-aligned dragon i suggested to pack of the family (of other good dragons) and move into a fortress to some good diety. I suggest Tyr. Then convince a bnd of paladins of Torm that it would be a good idea to chill their too, using the dragons (make em gold ones) as a selling point. By now you have enough people that mercenary-clerics of Waukeen will hopefully be willing to join up (in exchange for a little dragon gold) which should get you a flow of soldiers also seeking glory.

All those people and their many gods will draw the poetic and artistic followers of Sune and the soldeirs will insure her harlots arive as well. The clerics will then follow. Oghma's followers will come too seeking new songs and adventures.

And all that traveling might even get you direct aid from Shaundakul, who is known to send Avatars out rather often.

So now you have an insanly convoluted security system inside a mimic who is being watched by dragons in a fortress town now home to a massive collection of followers of the goodly gods.

Thajocoth
2009-05-08, 03:11 PM
Its this sort of metagame egotism that causes GMs to throw TPKs your way.

I don't see how it's egotism or effecting anything. If the quest has no possibility of success, then why did the GM send you on it? If the quest has the possibility of success, then, as I said, it's possible to complete so long as you're not all dead. That's why the second half of that sentence is there. "so long as you don't get a TPK along the way." Though I did forget about time-sensitive stuff... I've found though that the GMs I've had don't want the party overthinking everything. It makes them bored.


Write everything you're actually doing down on a sheet of paper, sealed in an envelope, and have it dated by a notary

If another player in my party of a campaign I was in ever did that, I'd start filling out my next character sheet, because I know what'd happen next fight.

If any player in a campaign I ran ever did that, I'd rule: "If you didn't tell me, it didn't happen."

DMfromTheAbyss
2009-05-09, 02:19 AM
Having had to do basically the same thing with a bunch of artifacts in a campaign I am playing in, IMHO the best solutions are simple and devious.

Having a box, no matter how convoluted and protected can be stolen, Having it away from the party is always a bad idea, Having all of them in the same exact place, also a mistake.

I suggest the following, each PC, takes possession of 1 of the items as you find them. (that way your safe except in a total party kill) Then integrate that item into something the character wears, weither it be a shoulder spike on his armor or a weird looking daggerlike weapon. Just pour some money into a local smith (or do it yourself if you have the skills)to have him use the relics as part of other objects that won't look out of place on the characters. Hide them in plain sight as something that looks like it belongs, the last place they'll generally look is right in front of them.

Having decoys and misdirection helps too. Misdirection and anything that fools divination helps. Spreading stories on how you lost the item in "such and such" hard to get to spot (like the tomb of horrors:smallbiggrin:) might also throw them off the trail. Let one villian know that opposing Villain #2 has it becouse they stole it from you already, heck offer a temporary alliance to get it back and watch their confused reaction. Having a vault where the item supposedly is, even having a mildly enchanted replica made (nystul's magic aura or equivilant) and guarded can be a great help, but don't put too much of your resources into it. The best thing is to keep the relics on you, as something that doesn't look like the relic and make your party tougher, so you have a better and better chance to defeat the things guarding the other pieces.

Don't try to out-think the DM, it's a waste of time and effort. if the DM is a jerk and the item WILL be stolen nothing you do can stop it. Your job is to take reasonable precautions and get on with the game, a large spending of time and money on protecting the artifacts is probably a bad idea. Better to have an antimagic aura'd fighter with a funny shieldspike, a rogue with a spare spikard dagger (and misdirection/antidivination) and a wizard with a funny magical metal staff with a spike on the end etc, that when the moment comes that you need the relics you can just pop out the relics and use them, no muss no fuss.

For reference my Paladin character is currently in possession of a holy relic being sought by the forces of darkness yada yada, the relic has been painted black and attached to his evil looking armor as a crest right on the chest. The priests who originally had the relic in their care have a clever enchanted fake, which they think is real, and so far the forces of darkness have been pretty oblivious to the whole deal. Heck they briefly thought i was on their side... who says all paladins are what they look like.

Talic
2009-05-09, 03:25 AM
For a contingency, may I suggest, with such a well locked box... If the MacGuffin is ever more than 100 feet from you, Teleport to inside your backpack.

After all, if I, a demon, see a cold iron, magically bound chest, my steps are as follows:

Kill someone with gloves.
Take gloves, wear.
Sneak in.
Get chest.
Run away, attempt to destroy within my lair, away from meddling party.

Possible bonus: If they just toss the box in a sphere of annihilation, they may think "mission complete", when really? They just tossed an empty box in.

Mikeavelli
2009-05-09, 03:27 AM
Haven't we learned anything from evil Overlords throughout the ages?

Don't seal it away on the Ethereal Plane in a heavily warded chest. These measures will merely be handwaved away by your DM when he needs the shards stolen for the sake of plot.

Go down to the capital city in your game world, and get a Safety Deposit box in one of a variety of respected financial institutions.

Coidzor
2009-05-09, 04:39 AM
Don't try to out-think the DM, it's a waste of time and effort. if the DM is a jerk and the item WILL be stolen nothing you do can stop it. Your job is to take reasonable precautions and get on with the game, a large spending of time and money on protecting the artifacts is probably a bad idea.
Pretty much this is the most reasonable way to go about things. Other than like, straight-up going up to the god who is supposed to own it and whapping him/her on the nose and telling 'em not to lose it again.

Although... ^:Mikeavelli's suggestion does amuse me...

Halaster
2009-05-09, 05:03 AM
@Mikeavelli:
Nice, has an "Evil Overlord List" feel to it.

@OP:
As has been said here, and can't be repeated enough: don't bother. Keep it in a locked chest alright, but don't worry about all the spells and gimmicks. D&D is a game of personal heroism, and if your DM understands that, he will have the bad guys coming for you, so you can defend the artifact with your lives, rather than have it stolen in the dark of night by an unseen thief.
Also, you need to own up to this fact: you're not planning to stop the BBEG, you're planning to stop the GM. You appear to believe that you can make him run out of ideas to steal the MacGuffin, so he has do dump that plot point entirely. But you can't. If he wants it stolen, he'll have it stolen and he simply doesn't need to explain how it was done. In fact, the more you think about this, the less likely you are to ever learn how the BBEG found and took the item.
If you're not into the whole "get the thingy back again" kind of plot, then for gods' sake tell the GM. If you don't think he will listen, you're out of luck one way or another.
The way I see it, what you're trying to do is going to create nothing but frustration, both for the GM, who has his plot constrained and has to either rack his brain, or handwave the whole thing, as well as for you, who will either never need the whole security, or will not benefit from it for a moment.
Trying to turn a roleplaying game into a planning contest just ruins the fun.

Talic
2009-05-09, 05:06 AM
There's another way D&D can be played, ya know. It's a story-driven game, a campaign is.

What about the story of the heroes chasing the villains across the land, trying to recover their MacGuffin before the evil gets to the place where they can destroy it?

You know, a subverted Lord of the Rings? Lotsa chases, scant getaways, sleuthing... Could have a good feel to it.

And the choice for whether the party defends with their lives, or goes on this merry escapade?

How well they protect.

That's how I'd run it, as a DM, at least.

Ovaltine Patrol
2009-05-09, 06:31 AM
A couple of years ago, my friends and I wanted to hold on to an evil sword without anyone knowing we had it. We crafted a forgery and then staged a fight in a big city, dragged it all over the place: crashing through taverns and other public areas, using the real sword. Then, at a dramatically appropriate moment, under the cover of illusions and general misdirection, we used sleight of hand to replace it with the fake and sundered it.

Most people thought it was destroyed after that. We did the usual lead-lined box stuff after that.

Cheesegear
2009-05-09, 06:57 AM
Find Elminster, give the artifact to him. Let him deal with it. Since it is pretty much canon that he's invincible.

potatocubed
2009-05-09, 07:34 AM
Here's a thought: planar ally or some variation. Bring a lawful celestial through, hand him the thingy, then send him packing back to Mount Celestia or wherever. Now to get their hands on it the forces of evil have to successfully assault the upper planes - which they've been trying and failing to do since the dawn of time.

Minimal effort, plus the GM has a lot of justification to do if he wants to explain how the bad guys got their hands on it.

Venerable
2009-05-09, 10:20 AM
These measures will merely be handwaved away by your DM when he needs the shards stolen for the sake of plot.

Go down to the capital city in your game world, and get a Safety Deposit box in one of a variety of respected financial institutions.

:smallamused: Yeah, well, our Eberron group discovered that even a House Kundarak vault isn't proof against the Power of Plot.

Deth Muncher
2009-05-09, 11:35 AM
If any player in a campaign I ran ever did that, I'd rule: "If you didn't tell me, it didn't happen."

This.

In the campaign I'm in, my character has this odd black box, completely impenetrable by any means my party has of opening it: magic, mundane smashing, acid...nothing. Well, two of the party members decided that they wanted to destroy this thing, so they wrote up this whole complicated subplot that was to go and steal my Bag of Holding (where the box was) and throw it into this giant magical vortex.

Basically, all of this ended with their characters being kidnapped and sold into slavery for no reason, because when my character went to go interact with my BoH, the player mentioned to the DM to look at the sheet. The DM basically said to them "Sorry, you didn't point that part out to me as something you were doing right now." Not to mention I raised a fit because to steal something, even when I'm sleeping, I'd get interaction rolls (i.e. waking up, etc).

On a side note, the players realized what a stupid idea this was and are about to be reintroduced back into the campaign, probably with all sorts of crazy lewts and stories to tell.

Graymayre
2009-05-09, 11:53 AM
If it's something discreet (I.E. not a "Mordekainen's shiny jewel of sparkles"), I'd keep it out in the open.

If you hide it, others will think it's valuable enough to steal. So I'll make it seem like some worthless doo-dad by twirling it around absentmindedly.

Godskook
2009-05-09, 12:08 PM
You know, you're running a balancing act against two different possibilities. On the one hand, no matter how you protect the item, the DM can figure out a way around your tricks. On the other, if you do nothing, the DM will snag it just to mess with you. Seems to me, the best choice is to invest just enough effort to fool your DM into thinking you're taking this seriously, and no more. That way, you're not out too much GP for a GM fiat, but you're also not 'asking' to have it stolen again.

Iku Rex
2009-05-09, 12:26 PM
Force chest (Sor/Wiz 4, SpC) is a good spell for protecting a small object.

If you make a decoy chest, don't forget to enhance the fake MacGuffin with magic aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm). (Sadly the spell doesn't work on artifacts, so you can't disguise the gem with it.)

Explosive runes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm) and glyph of warding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glyphOfWarding.htm) are farily cheap traps available to PCs.

A stone of alarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#stoneofAlarm) could also come in handy.