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penbed400
2009-05-08, 12:00 AM
I'm lost with my animal companion. My druid is level 20. First of all I'm looking for one with poison so that I can put Venomfire on it because I mean hey, who doesn't want an extra 20d6 of damage on every attack? It's just darn useful. Unfortunantly my DM doesn't want me to use any dinosaurs so Fleshraker's are out of the question.

Next is that I'm having trouble with advancing the creature. I've looked at the chart in the PHB 3.5 and I see the chart so I get how to add the HD and natural armor and stuff but I'm not sure how to optimize it. I know it gets feats as according to it's HD but yea...Anybody have any ideas?

Salt_Crow
2009-05-08, 12:13 AM
HD is nice but Horrid template (ECS) is even nicer ;)

Anyways, back to poison... I'd say vipers or monstrous spiders (vermin companion) would be the only choice unless someone more observant come up with those obvious ones.

Baalthazaq
2009-05-08, 01:32 AM
I always take 1 level of beastmaster just to give me the +3 druid levels to animal companion.

The problem with a huge viper is it's con. Even after the boosts from HD you're still on basically just 100 HP, your con doesn't go up in level, your str and dex do, which means the save on your poison stays at 14.

You can however grab a legendary snake (Monster Manual II) according to Dragon Magazine 351. DC25 poison of D8 con. It's min level is 16.

With advances it either becomes 322 HP, +2NAC, +1Str, +1Dex, and has evasion.

Or if you do take that level of Beastmaster (Complete Adventurer I think?) 345 HP, +4NAC, +2 Str and Dex. Evasion plus +4 to saves vs enchantments.

Eldariel
2009-05-08, 02:39 AM
Generally you'll want something with multiple attacks. I personally like the Tiger-line for their 3 base attacks and 2 rakes each turn; goes great with PA/Shock Trooper-stuff (just get them a Psychic Reformation or something). Then cram an armor on them, pick few other appropriate Fighter-feats, buff it with a dozen 1 hour/level buffs and go to town.

EDIT: Oh yeah, if you've got insane Handle Animal, train it as a Warbeast! They're in Monster Manual II, the Handle Animal DC is 25+HD. With maxed Handle Animal and some help (Circlet of Persuasion, Cloak of Charisma, etc.) it might just be possible. You need to hit 31 base for a Dire Tiger, 33 for a Tyrannosaur to be able to take 10 and complete it within a reasonable timeframe (2 months; just go to some plane with slow time to train).

I know they aren't poisonous, but multiattackers rarely are (yeah, Fleshraker is an exception) and it just so happens multiple attacks > poison.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-08, 07:35 AM
There are four easy steps to optimizing your animal companion, plus one more if you want to use cheese:

1. Get out your Monster Manual 3 and look up the Fleshraker Dinosaur, it is superior to all others as an animal companion. Four attacks/round, three of which deliver poison, pounce with a rake and a free trip and pin, high base land speed, and good ability scores and natural armor. You get a -3 to your effective Druid level for its extra HD and other benefits due to being more powerful than a 1st level companion.

2. Get out your Complete Adventurer and look up the feat Natural Bond, you need to take this feat, the recommended level for it is 3rd. It grants +3 to your effective Druid level for your animal companion's extra HD and other benefits, but no higher than your character level. You can apply your own bonuses and penalties in the most beneficial order, so apply the Fleshraker's -3 first, and then add the +3 for Natural Bond to negate the penalty. This is 100% legitimate, it strictly adheres to the RAW, and WotC's FAQ has shown that they've intended similar feats (Practiced Spellcaster) to work this way so the same should go for this.

3. Get out Savage Species and look up the feat Virulent Poison, your companion takes this to get +2 DC for its poison attack. Get out your core Monster Manual and look up the feat Ability Focus, your companion takes this to get +2 DC for its poison attack. Get out your Complete Arcane and look up the feat Mage Slayer, your companion gets enough cross-class Spellcraft ranks to qualify for and take this feat. Other feats to consider include Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper, but they aren't necessary. Keep in mind your animal companion's poison DC increases as it gains HD, and it should also gain +1 to an ability score at every 4th hit die.

4. In the Spell Compendium and core Player's Handbook there are quite a few spells that you can and should use to buff your animal companion. In the Player's Handbook II there's a feat called Companion Spellbond, which allows you to use touch-range spells on it from up to 30 feet away. Some useful spells include (Quickened) Enrage Animal, Animal Growth, (Extended) Nature's Favor, any spell that begins 'Bite of the,' (Mass) Snake's Swiftness, Bull's Strength, and Barkskin. Also, in Dragon 330 there's a 2nd level spell called Venomous Volley (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Spells-Druid.pdf) that is extremely useful if your animal companion has a poison attack.

5. (cheese) Get out your Book of Exalted Deeds and look up the feat Exalted Companion, you take this feat to give your animal companion the Celestial template for -1 to your effective druid level for its extra HD and other benefits. Its Intelligence is increased to 3 and its alignment changes to good. Also in BoED look up the feats Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty, your animal companion now qualifies for these feats and should take them at the earliest opportunity. It will now gain all the benefits associated with voluntary poverty, given on the table on page 31 of that same book based on its Hit Dice, just don't ever put any costly equipment on it and don't use any charges from limited use magic items on it.

Darrin
2009-05-08, 08:21 AM
The problem with a huge viper is it's con. Even after the boosts from HD you're still on basically just 100 HP, your con doesn't go up in level, your str and dex do, which means the save on your poison stays at 14.


Not quite. The save DC for poison is 10 + 1/2 HD + Con modifier. So as you gain HD, the DC does go up a bit.

Other animals bigger than a huge viper:

Dire Snake. MMII. 7 HD, 16 Con, Poison DC 16.
Legendary Snake. MotW. 16 HD, 24 Con, Poison DC 25.

There's another option in Serpent Kingdoms... Yuan-Ti grafts can add poison to any bite attack (Poison Fangs, 8000 GP) or even multiple bite attacks (Snake Arm, 12000 GP). These can be added to any animal as secondary natural attacks.

Philistine
2009-05-08, 01:29 PM
What part of "My DM won't allow dinosaurs" is so difficult to comprehend?

On Natural Bond cheese: If a druid selects a more-powerful AC, it's the AC that takes the level penalty - not the druid. And since the druid isn't taking a penalty, he can't "count the penalty first" to gain a benefit from the Natural Bond feat, as this would increase his effective druid level beyond his character level in direct contradiction of the wording of the feat, which specifically states that it "can never make your druid level exceed your character level." Seriously, druid is already a Tier 1 class even without willfull misinterpretion of the rules. You don't need silly, nonsensical, and illegitimate garbage like this to make the class effective.

Baalthazaq
2009-05-08, 03:36 PM
What part of "My DM won't allow dinosaurs" is so difficult to comprehend?

On Natural Bond cheese: If a druid selects a more-powerful AC, it's the AC that takes the level penalty - not the druid. And since the druid isn't taking a penalty, he can't "count the penalty first" to gain a benefit from the Natural Bond feat, as this would increase his effective druid level beyond his character level in direct contradiction of the wording of the feat, which specifically states that it "can never make your druid level exceed your character level." Seriously, druid is already a Tier 1 class even without willfull misinterpretion of the rules. You don't need silly, nonsensical, and illegitimate garbage like this to make the class effective.

I reread the rules when Biff posted. I was going to write a retort, but he seems to be right. Specifically:

Should she select an animal companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the character’s druid level were lower than it actually is. Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character’s druid level and compare the result with the druid level entry on the table to determine the animal companion’s powers. (If this adjustment would reduce the druid’s effective level to 0 or lower, she can’t have that animal as a companion.)

In addition:

A druid of sufficiently high level can select her animal companion from one of the following lists, applying the indicated adjustment to the druid’s level] (in parentheses) for purposes of determining the companion’s characteristics and special abilities.

Using your interpretation of "the Druid's level never moves, the animal takes the penalty", then the druid's effective level will never reach 0, and you can take a T-Rex at level 1, it just won't level until you surpass it. Opens up far more cheese than it closes.

It's RAW, not necessarily RAI, but RAW all the same.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-08, 05:20 PM
I usually scan posts for keywords rather than reading the whole thing, I didn't notice the bit about dinosaurs the first time over it. With Fleshraker out of the picture, the next best choice is usually a Dire Eagle from Races of Stone. The Natural Bond trick applies to this as well, which as I said before is completely valid by both RAW and RAI. It may not get a poison attack, but I've never been fond of animal companions that only get one attack per round. Maybe try looking in Sandstorm, Frostburn, and other setting-type books, which include new monsters and list creatures from MM2 and even the Fiend Folio as possible choices for an animal companion.


From the FAQ:

Does the bonus to caster level from the Practiced Spellcaster feat (from CAr and CD) apply before or after other caster level bonuses (such as those from the Good or Healing domains)?
The bonus from Practiced Spellcaster applies whenever it would be most beneficial to the caster. A 4th-level cleric/4thlevel fighter with the Healing domain and Practiced Spellcaster would cast Conjuration (Healing) spells as a 9th-level caster (base caster level 4th, +4 from Practiced Spellcaster, +1 from the Healing domain). A 4th-level cleric/4th-level rogue with Practiced Spellcaster who activates a bead of karma (from a strand of prayer beads) would cast her spells as a 12th-level caster (base 4, +4 from Practiced Spellcaster, +4 from bead of karma).
Replace Practiced Spellcaster with Natural Bond, and the same applies. RAI you get to add a bonus whenever it would be most beneficial, therefore you take the -3 penalty and then add the +3 without exceeding your character level. You could even take one level in Beastmaster and add its +3 bonus after Natural Bond, to have an effective Druid level higher than your character level for your animal companion's extra HD and other benefits. Natural Bond alone even allows a 4th level Druid to gain a companion from the Level -6 list, due to the primary source rules of text > table.

arkol
2009-05-08, 05:33 PM
The problem with a huge viper is it's con. Even after the boosts from HD you're still on basically just 100 HP, your con doesn't go up in level, your str and dex do, which means the save on your poison stays at 14


Not quite. The save DC for poison is 10 + 1/2 HD + Con modifier. So as you gain HD, the DC does go up a bit.

Not only that but has your go up in levle and your ocmpanioin gets more HD it gets both feats (every three HD) and ability scores increases (every 4 HD), which you can use to increase con and get ability focus. Not much but hey... the dc doesn't have to stay at 14...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-08, 05:52 PM
I'm lost with my animal companion. My druid is level 20. First of all I'm looking for one with poison so that I can put Venomfire on it because I mean hey, who doesn't want an extra 20d6 of damage on every attack? It's just darn useful.No. Rogues don't get that, not with 20 levels and multiple feats. Swift Ambushers don't even get that. Heck, 20th level Bards devote entire builds to getting that. Druids are broken enough. Don't fall into the trap of squeezing every point out of the build, leave Venomfire in the trash with Domain Wizard and Incantrix.

That said, other than the Fleshraker, there are no good ACs with poison, IIRC. Opponents won't fail the save no matter what at 20th level. Assuming Beastmaster, Natural Bond, a +6 Con item, all level-ups in Con, and Ability Focus, a Huge Viper's save DC is 27. A caster of your level has a save of 16, without even trying(immunity to poison isn't that hard, and is usually grabbed as part of the 'defeat entire game mechanics' buff routine). A character with a poor progression has a 50% chance of making it, and those with poor progressions won't be near the danger of a pet. If you want poison on a decent critter, though, I recommend snagging a Tiger or other pouncing charger, taking Celestial Companion, allowing him to take Vow of Poverty. It can then snag Touch of Golden Ice as a bonus feat, meaning 1d6 dex damage per hit, DC 13.

Devils_Advocate
2009-05-08, 09:35 PM
Note that a druid's animal companion is explicitly completely typical for its kind except as noted. What that means is that if you take some giant beast from the highest-level available animal companion list, you're stuck with all those feats and skills in its stat block; no changing things around. You can only pick feats (and a few skill points) gained from the bonus animal companion HD. This balances things a bit by letting boosted first-level animal companions be more optimized, while a T-rex is stuck with crap like Toughness x 3. Mind you, I'd probably still choose the T-rex, if selecting strictly for combat effectiveness...

Eldariel
2009-05-08, 10:03 PM
Note that a druid's animal companion is explicitly completely typical for its kind except as noted. What that means is that if you take some giant beast from the highest-level available animal companion list, you're stuck with all those feats and skills in its stat block; no changing things around. You can only pick feats (and a few skill points) gained from the bonus animal companion HD. This balances things a bit by letting boosted first-level animal companions be more optimized, while a T-rex is stuck with crap like Toughness x 3. Mind you, I'd probably still choose the T-rex, if selecting strictly for combat effectiveness...

You can sorta use Psychic Reformation to get around that.