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View Full Version : Style over Substance [3.5]



Flickerdart
2009-05-09, 08:57 PM
There are a lot of awful, awful classes in 3.5. Some of those classes are also incredibly awesome fluff-wise, even when they crash and burn mechanically (Truenamer, I'm looking at you). But being able to do a 2d6+quadrillion damage with an ubercharger will never, in my heart, compare to a trick so incredibly sweet that you will defeat your opponents with the fall damage they take when their jaws drop.

I am talking about things like the Pyrokineticist and its rather useless ability to walk on air, or the Soulknife's entirety. Some Bard in there for Snowflake Wardance and CHA to everything would make such a character complete, and lend an air of effectiveness that it might otherwise lack. Since we're going with coolness over being able to do things, LA isn't a problem, just keep it under Epic. Refluffing is also cheating, because that way you can use a class that doesn't suck and make it sound like this. Rule of Cool can trump RAW if you have to, but not RAI.

One idea I had was a Soulknife/Pyrokineticist who dual-wields the lash and the soulblade. Imagine a guy walking through an alley at night. He is obviously carrying no weapons, and his attire marks him apart from wizardry or some such. Suddenly, he is accosted by thugs, who jeer as they take out their rusty blades and can't restrain themselves from the easy haul. Suddenly, a whip of solid flame unfurls from one hand of the figure, and a ghostly sword appears in the other. These weapons came from nowhere, and momentarily they tear into the enemies' weapons, shattering them. The tables are now turned, and it is the thugs who are unarmed. The survivors flee, as the mystery figure chuckles and the weapons are again no more. Guardsmen will investigate the incident for days, but find no evidence of a weapon brought into the city by travellers or summoned with a spell of magic, but citizens will spread tales of an angel wielding holy light and flames, smiting the wicked in the name of Good.

DragoonWraith
2009-05-09, 09:12 PM
One idea I had was a Soulknife/Pyrokineticist who dual-wields the lash and the soulblade. Imagine a guy walking through an alley at night. He is obviously carrying no weapons, and his attire marks him apart from wizardry or some such. Suddenly, he is accosted by thugs, who jeer as they take out their rusty blades and can't restrain themselves from the easy haul. Suddenly, a whip of solid flame unfurls from one hand of the figure, and a ghostly sword appears in the other. These weapons came from nowhere, and momentarily they tear into the enemies' weapons, shattering them. The tables are now turned, and it is the thugs who are unarmed. The survivors flee, as the mystery figure chuckles and the weapons are again no more. Guardsmen will investigate the incident for days, but find no evidence of a weapon brought into the city by travellers or summoned with a spell of magic, but citizens will spread tales of an angel wielding holy light and flames, smiting the wicked in the name of Good.
I am of no help to you, but I have to say - this is awesome. I'd play it.

The first thing I'd do is change the Pyrokineticist to focus on the whip more. They get it early, so its stats aren't so hot, but none of the later levels really do anything with it. That's the first thing I'd look to change.

RebelRogue
2009-05-09, 10:47 PM
I guess this is where my pet peeve with 3.5, as much as i do love the system lies: Whenever you walk down even a little down the path of what seems to be standard optimization, the things that ought to be cool are not, or generally do not work particularly well! If you play in an "old school" mindset (which I prefer), it's relatively ok, though not perfect in any way. But even if you apply mild amounts of forethought and/or splat to a basic caster, your fighter, monk, ranger or paladin (classes that ought to kick ass, right out of the box, imo!) are on shaky ground. (I really like that aspect of 4e myself, but this is not intended to start another edition war thread...)

I'm not sure that's what this thread was to be about exactly, but to me those basic classes have a lot of style, but compared to other options, not always too much substance. That's a real shame, IMO. I care a lot more about those basic classes than more "exotic" base classes and PrCs.

Edit2: This is not supposed to be a melee vs. caster debate, even though that may just be what it comes down to in practice. That wasn't the point, really, though.

Gerbah
2009-05-10, 01:49 AM
Sweet class concepts always rule over good mechanical abilities, at least I like to think so. Top of the list has to be Bards, I love 'em, plus they can be useful at times but mainly they are just so fun to play. Next I'd have to say maybe Hexblades as a sweet concept, they are like an anti-mage Spellsword (though it is particularly difficult to be an anti-mage in D&D).

Back on the bard thing, the PrC Seeker of the Song looks really fun to play to me. Problem being you have to be 10th level+ and the abilities aren't as good when you reach that point, but still, you can literally melt someones face off with a guitar solo with that class.

Oh, and the Duelist or even Swashbuckler are really neat concepts, because who doesn't want to play a Musketeer/pirate type character at least once?

Trizap
2009-05-10, 01:56 AM
and this lament is why homebrew exists......

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-10, 02:07 AM
I haven't seen a concept yet that wouldn't fit into a workable class. One of the perks of WotC's constant publication of overlapping concepts, I guess.


But out of the box, the biggest disappointment was the Monk. I thought the canned unarmed fighter would be good at fighting unarmed.
Two of the other party members, a Rogue and Barbarian with Improved Unarmed Strike, proved that notion wrong.


Of course these days, used 3.5 books are pocket change. It isn't hard to just grab the Psychic Warrior or Swordsage instead. Or find a competent alignment-compatable multiclass. Or a useful Monk variant. Or a Prestige class that pulls it together....
(And so on)

DragoonWraith
2009-05-10, 02:11 AM
Oh, and the Duelist or even Swashbuckler are really neat concepts, because who doesn't want to play a Musketeer/pirate type character at least once?

Yeah, I'd really like to do a Duelist, but it just seems sub-par...

evisiron
2009-05-10, 06:52 AM
The first thing I'd do is change the Pyrokineticist to focus on the whip more. They get it early, so its stats aren't so hot...*snip*

Ugh, terrible. :smallwink:

In my case the solution seems to be running a fairly unoptimised campaign, where these cool but weak classes can be used without one player steam rolling the encounters while others are left behind.
Are group will have a monk sorcerer, gnome barbarian and a cleric of the sea! Should be fun. :smallbiggrin:

AslanCross
2009-05-10, 07:13 AM
I did this once when I participated in a one-shot 18th level game (Prisoner of the Castle Perilous) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/duad/20080211).

One of my characters was a Wizard/Cleric/Fatespinner/Silver Flame Pyromancer and was really badass. The other was a Paladin/Swordsage. (I used OWA's Rebalanced Paladin).

The paladin, Aetheldreda, was rather taciturn and contemplative compared to the stereotypical paladins (high Wis, decent but not stellar Cha, Serenity feat). She fought with two tonfas (No, I didn't use the crappy monk weapon, hers were silvered light maces). Instead of relying on smiting and a big sword, Aetheldreda learned, through hours of meditation each day, to channel her deity's favored element: fire.

As such, she specialized in Desert Wind and Tiger Claw maneuvers. I did preliminary number crunching and thought she'd totally destroy things.

I was wrong. While she was a great survivor (Pearl of Black Doubt boosted her AC into the 50s once, and in the final battle she successfully Reflex saved against four large explosions---Evasion allowed her to escape completely unscathed.), she just. Could not. Hit.

It may have been the DM's overtwinking of the random mooks in the game or just really bad luck, but Aetheldreda made very few successful attacks, and only about two of those were blows that really counted.

Starscream
2009-05-10, 07:45 AM
I'd be a Swashbuckler/Duelist/Dread Pirate. And I'd be named Roberts.

Don't know what levels I'd take of each, but since this is about coolness over substance I suppose it doesn't really matter.

I'd also like to try a Monk/Drunken Master. I love the Jackie Chan movie Legend of the Drunken Master, and I think it'd be sweet to stumble around the battlefield, acting like I'm completely blitzed, and somehow devastating my foes in the process.

Oh, and a Fortune's Friend. Don't know what I'd use as an entry class, don't care. Call myself Gladstone (obscure reference, cookies to anyone who gets it), and basically just let everything come my way through luck.

Only reason I've never played one of those, is that the class simulates good luck by forcing so many re-rolls per day that the DM would take a bite out of his screen in frustration. The other players would probably hate you as well. All your turns would take extra time because you'd constantly be re-rolling dice.

If I were to homebrew a version of this class, I'd do it the way Mutants & Masterminds does with the Probability Control power: let the player use their level as the minimum result of a single die roll per round. So a tenth level Fortune's Friend could simply decide that one die per round is a ten.

Come to think of it, would that really be such a bad idea for a Base Class? I'd give it 1/2 BAB, low hit dice, no good saves, etc, but it could use its class level as the result of any die roll per round. By level 20 it would be able to hit all the time, but would still not do as much damage as the guys who can take six attacks per round at +infinity damage.

Malacode
2009-05-10, 08:39 AM
There's no reason why you can't have a stylish character who's also effective. Tome of Battle proved that, in my mind. If it's the fluff of the classes you're worried about, ignore it. Come up with your own reasons why your particular combination of classes and prestige classes works, or why your single classed character does what he does.
When your Trip-Monkey Duskblade knocks over a character, don't just descibe it as a whip-to-the-ankle. Maybe he flicked the guy in the groin with his weapon, then sent a Shocking Grasp down the length of it into the prostate of the unfortunate fellow. When your Drunken Master is in a one-on-one, he didn't just hit his opponent in the gut, he used a table leg to smash him in the face. If your Favoured Soul loses 10 HP to a sword blow, maybe instead of actually being hit that 10 HP represented divine wards now shattered by the blow. Be imaginitive!

Baalthazaq
2009-05-10, 08:46 AM
I'd be a Swashbuckler/Duelist/Dread Pirate. And I'd be named Roberts.

Don't know what levels I'd take of each, but since this is about coolness over substance I suppose it doesn't really matter.

I'd also like to try a Monk/Drunken Master. I love the Jackie Chan movie Legend of the Drunken Master, and I think it'd be sweet to stumble around the battlefield, acting like I'm completely blitzed, and somehow devastating my foes in the process.

Oh, and a Fortune's Friend. Don't know what I'd use as an entry class, don't care. Call myself Gladstone (obscure reference, cookies to anyone who gets it), and basically just let everything come my way through luck.

Only reason I've never played one of those, is that the class simulates good luck by forcing so many re-rolls per day that the DM would take a bite out of his screen in frustration. The other players would probably hate you as well. All your turns would take extra time because you'd constantly be re-rolling dice.

If I were to homebrew a version of this class, I'd do it the way Mutants & Masterminds does with the Probability Control power: let the player use their level as the minimum result of a single die roll per round. So a tenth level Fortune's Friend could simply decide that one die per round is a ten.

Come to think of it, would that really be such a bad idea for a Base Class? I'd give it 1/2 BAB, low hit dice, no good saves, etc, but it could use its class level as the result of any die roll per round. By level 20 it would be able to hit all the time, but would still not do as much damage as the guys who can take six attacks per round at +infinity damage.

As a level 20 one off, I played a Cleric of Fortune.

Halfling Cleric 5 (Domain Caster), Contemplative 10, Fortune's Friend 5.
Domains: Luck, Fate, Destiny. I took domain focus and took luck twice. If your DM won't allow it, freedom is useful and the closest I could find to a fate/destiny related domain. Alternatively if your DM is being bitchy about the knowledge (religion) 13 entry requirement, take the Knowledge domain and it will allow you to put points in it even with fortune's friend not having it in his class list. Oh, and if you're wondering how I got 4 domains, it's part of contemplative. +2 domains.
Feats: Every luck feat I could muster.

Finished with 17 rerolls per day, including "Turn 1 into 20" for both saves and attacks. Reroll attacks. Reroll saves. Reroll skill checks. Etc. I could pass some rerolls on to my friends.

Basically anything that involved a D20 roll was rerollable, often up to 3 times at once, and any given reroll type could be done up to 8 times a day, not counting spells like choose fate.

I was unstoppable. What's great though is it gives you plenty of character. My character would run straight into the path of danger. Knowing that his destiny was foretold and that nothing could stop him from achieving what the gods had sent him to do. He could not die this day, for the gods had chosen him and only him to defeat the BBEG.

In the end he was the one who defeated the BBEG, by sending the source of her power to Valhalla via a plane shift. He then used all his protection spells to save the party as the world crumbled around them, but he didn't have enough spells remaining to save himself. His 17th reroll used to survive the spell he triggered when he tried to plane shift the power source.

His luck had run out, his destiny had been fulfilled, and now he was ready to meet his fate.

Yes, I know you can't technically make this character as contemplative requires 13 ranks in knowledge(religion). I asked the DM if I could maintain my current favoured skills at the cost of all extra skills and skill points granted by fortune's friend. If he didn't, I would have taken knowledge instead of domain focus(luck)

Baalthazaq
2009-05-10, 09:04 AM
My favourite character to date for roleplaying, and one I really want to try again for more than a one off:

I once made a warforge that was effectively the servant of my cohort (a "dryad"). I named him "House" for various reasons. He wants to be called home, but refers to himself as House.

A gnomish artificer had made me after accidentally cutting down the dryad's tree. The gnome spent his life trying to make it up to the dryad by building her a new home to replace her own and whatnot.

The gnome grew to love the dryad after a time, and was saddened by the sense that she never forgave him.

The dryad was impressed by the gnome, and slowly grew to love him too. Being fey, she adored being doted on, but being fey she never told the gnome she loved him or that she forgave him, for fear he would leave. She didn't notice he was growing old, and she didn't realize he was dying.

The gnome realizing his time was coming to an end built the warforge out of ironwood, and made it's heart from the Dryads fallen tree. It's only command was to give the dryad what she truly wanted to be happy.

The construct started plain but over time shrunk in stature, the heart guiding his shifts. A green bushy beard has grown around his chin, and a little pot belly that would look odd on any other construct has sprouted.

Now the dryad loves him too but still stays silent, and the little gnomish construct artificer still makes her trinkets to show his affection, trying harder each day, though he doesn't know why, to be more like the master she misses so much.
************************

All of the above is RAW and RAI. Feel free to figure out how I did it. :)

DragoonWraith
2009-05-10, 02:33 PM
Ugh, terrible. :smallwink:
Hehe, not only was that not intentional, but even when you pointed it out I didn't realize it until I'd started trying to write out a defense of my statement, when I realized you were just complaining about the (truly awful) pun. :smallwink: