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PnP Fan
2009-05-12, 09:12 AM
Okay. . . I'm sure someone else has brought this up, but I can't seem to find any other threads on the subject.

Multiclassing in 4.0 seems like it's a bad career move, though it has some short term benefits.
Specifically, the first multiclassing feat for each class typically grants Training in a skill, and then either a class ability or an At-Will as an Encounter. This is a pretty good deal, as it is better than just taking Skill Training as a feat. Thus a short term benefit.
However, to gain access to Encounter/Daily/Utility powers, you wind up expending an additional feat *and* a power slot, for each power from the secondary class you want. This strikes me as extraordinarily lousy, as it leaves you behind the curve in terms of a feat spent that didn't grant as much utility as if you hadn't any other feat in the book. This is particularly glaring if the assumption is that characters of equal level are supposed to be about equally powerful/useful (Thus Powers of equal level should be fairly similar in power/utility).
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not looking to munchkin the system, I'm just looking to not get gimped while fulfilling my concept (devout arcane spellcaster: Wizard MC to Invoker), and to confirm my reading on the subject. So, is my interpretation of this correct or am I reading something wrong? Is there an errata out there that I'm not aware of?

Tengu_temp
2009-05-12, 09:20 AM
Remember that the moment you take your first multiclass feat, you can also take feats and/or a paragon path of the class you multiclassed into. That's pretty worthwhile.

As for power swap feats, they serve mostly to cherry-pick powers you'd rather have instead of some of your main class' powers at this level - getting a great power instead of a mediocre one is worth spending a feat, don't you think?

Kurald Galain
2009-05-12, 09:31 AM
The initial MC feats are among the best in the game, because of the additional power or ability they grant in add in addition to the free skill. This, by itself, is sufficient to qualify for nearly every paragon path (or other class-dependent feat, for that matter) which has some heavy combo potential.

The power swap feats are all about finding combos. Generally, swapping a power for another is no big deal and a waste of a feat. However, certain powers like Rain of Blows or Guileful Switch, are extremely good for many classes.

Multiclassing doesn't really have a big impact on heroic tier, though. That's what hybrids are for.

Artanis
2009-05-12, 10:12 AM
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not looking to munchkin the system, I'm just looking to not get gimped while fulfilling my concept (devout arcane spellcaster: Wizard MC to Invoker), and to confirm my reading on the subject.

Does the concept actually require outright divine casting? Because you can make a pious Wizard just by RPing his devotion...

PnP Fan
2009-05-12, 12:01 PM
Artanis:
No, it doesn't absolutely require it. The game has gone along swimmingly without my character MCing. However, we lack any divine classes, and our biggest weakness right now is undead (we have little Radiant Damage producers, which seems to be related to, but not exclusivel to the Divine Power Source). My thinking was to take advantage of my character's personality and develop it into something tactically useful, by collecting a few Radiant Damage related powers. I'm still waiting for a good story moment to have a "revelation".

Tengu, Kurald:
Thanks for the evaluation and confirmation. It may be more practical to wait until higher levels to look at the power swap feats. I hadn't given any thought that the first tier MC feat would also allow access to Paragon Paths, as we're only 4th level, and Paragon paths are several levels away. As for cherry picking powers. . . I've yet to be disappointed with my power options at any of the first 4 levels. So, thus far, no, I don't think the power swap feat is worth it, not when I can make that feat improve something else I do and be more effective in general. However, as I mentioned before, we are seriously lacking radiant damage, so I can see swapping out some power feats at higher levels for some lower level radiant damage powers. Maybe.

Burley
2009-05-12, 12:27 PM
If you're just looking for radiant damage, there are non divine classes that deal radiant damage, on occasion.
The Warlock's Dire Radiance, Dread Star, Coldfire Vertex, and a slew of other Star Pact Powers deal radiant damage. (By slew, I mean some.)
The Wizard has Color Spray, which is awesome in it's own right. Also, Prismatic Burst.
The Sorcerer has the Level 1 Daily Dazzling Ray that deals 6d6+Cha radiant, and also Chromatic Orb which is 3d10+Cha and 1-in-6 chance for radiant.

So, sure, the divine classes have radiant, but arcane classes do, too. (Not super often, but it's there.) I think the non-barbarian primals each get one or two.

Totally Guy
2009-05-12, 12:58 PM
Multiclassing doesn't really have a big impact on heroic tier, though. That's what hybrids are for.

Where are hybrid detailed? I've not seen that.

I DMed for a pretty fun multiclass recently. It was a valourous Bard that had forsaken his wand powers and instead focussed on his melee abilities upgraded to scale armour and fighting with the quarterstaff. Except the quarterstaff was in fact a magic staff and could be used with blasty Sorcerer powers. Part of the concept was that the highest level powers would always be the sorcerer ones which could be done due to the retraining benefit of the power swap feats.

This guy certainly didn't lag behind and seemed to enjoy blasting with as almost as much competence as a sorcerer and fight well when required too.

Kurald Galain
2009-05-12, 02:26 PM
Where are hybrid detailed? I've not seen that.
Dragon magazine.

Mauril Everleaf
2009-05-12, 03:05 PM
Specifically, Dragon 374, which contains the playtest article on the hybrid classes from PHB1. These are supposed to be contained in PHB3.

They essentially allow you to take two "half classes". It gives you some of the abilities (not all, and some are modified) of both classes you choose. You take an at-will from each class and then alternate which classes you take your Encounter, Utility and Daily powers from. You have to trade back and forth which class you take a specific type of power from. If you took an encounter from class A last time, you have to take it from class B this time.

I used this article to re-imagine my hobgoblin paladin, Hadrik. He became a paladin/fighter rather than a paladin MC fighter. He got the marking abilities of each class, but they only worked with powers from that class (e.g. Divine Challenge with paladin powers) and he was able to take (at level 8) a paladin at-will, level 1 encounter and daily, and a level 6 utility. He also took a fighter at-will, level 2 utility, level 3 encounter and level 5 daily.

I really like the system and hope that PHB3 releases it for all of the published classes (including the PHB3 classes) and that subsequent PHBs will print hybrid classes in their books.

TheOOB
2009-05-12, 03:07 PM
The multiclass feats, with their initial abilities and the ability to take the classes feats and paragon paths(divine oracle is good for any class for example), is great, in fact most characters will end up with a multiclass feat at some point.

The power swap feats are not quite as neccesary, but can be useful. Not all powers in every class are that useful for your build, and sometimes there is a power another class has that would just go great with your class. Take a strength based paladin, by multiclassing with fighter/warlord, you can get a good level 2 utility, and still get a strength power when you hit the level with no strength power.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-05-12, 07:58 PM
If you're a Wizard, how are you short on Radiant? Color Spray is a Blast 5 Radiant attack that Dazes - Encounter 3.

But yeah, MC really shines once you hit Paragon. There are just some PP that are obviously good for MCing (Pit Fighter, for example), and cherry-picking powers can provide you with ridiculous synergies (Bow Cleric with Disruptive Strike now can impose a WIS+3 penalty on any one attack within 200 feet :smalltongue:).

TheEmerged
2009-05-12, 09:11 PM
Nearly every race/class combo I've theorybuilt, and all but one of the five player characters in the campaign I run (the genasi swordmage), end up taking one of these feats. The list of heroic-tiered feats that give you more than a multiclass feat is short (and situational), and don't underestimate the advantage of getting access to a second list of class-restricted feats (the wizard in our party covets the bard knowledge feat, for example).

However, few builds benefit from the Novice/Acolyte/Adept Power feats. Acolyte Power (Utility) tends to be the most common one I see. Even if you house-rule out their "one power" restriction, it's still too much of a cost unless there's something specific you want. If any part of the initial multiclassing system needs a fix, this is that part.

Has anyone toyed with idea of replacing the Novice/Acolyte/Adept Power feats with a single feat that gives you a power from the 2nd class on its own timer (turning at-will powers into encounter, and encounter powers into dailies), akin to how the Channel Divinity feature works? A couple of the multiclass feats already do this, I don't think it would be that imbalancing as long as you limited it to one such power per character.

Colmarr
2009-05-12, 11:32 PM
I've always considered that the problem with the power swap feats is not that they are a feat cost for versatility and/or synergy (I'm generally fine with that - after all, choosing a feat is generally a voluntary action and you wouldn't take the feat if your didn't think the power swap was worth a feat); it's that they are a pre-requisite for paragon multiclassing.

Specifically, paragon multiclassing requires you to take all 3 feats, but despite spending those "character resources" you still miss out on the non-power benefits of paragon paths (especially the usually nice level 11 benefits) and miss out on paragon path powers, instead getting lower level powers of another class.

If paragon multiclassing could be tweaked to make it a little more attractive, I'd have no problem with the power swap feats.

Totally Guy
2009-05-13, 01:12 AM
miss out on paragon path powers, instead getting lower level powers of another class.

They aren't bad though.

The reason you're gaining a level 7 instead of 11 is because there are no encounter powers at level 8, 9, 10 or 11. I think that the paragon paths are balanced with the leveled down powers.

Colmarr
2009-05-13, 02:49 AM
The reason you're gaining a level 7 instead of 11 is because there are no encounter powers at level 8, 9, 10 or 11. I think that the paragon paths are balanced with the leveled down powers.

You may be right. I haven't done a thorough comparison.

But spend 3 feats* and miss out on the non-power benefits of PP X in exchange for the privilege of taking a few non-class powers? Even were those swapped powers strictly better than the ones you miss out on, it's still a pretty tough sell.

*Not counting the original multiclass feat simply to make the comparison clearer. It's harder to account for the original multiclass feat because it does give you something extra in return for the feat slot (skill training and another ability of some sort).

EDIT: I'm not saying that paragon multiclassing is unworkable. I've theorycrafted a tiefling paladin/wizard that I was more than happy with (except for the inability to quickly swap between implement and weapon while "sword and board"ing).

Totally Guy
2009-05-13, 03:02 AM
The biggest restriction I see is the Multiple Implement Dependency.

For the best synergy it's best to swap into powers that do not require a change of implement or casting/attacking stat.

So a Druid Shaman with a staff might work.
A charismatic Rogue Sorcerer with a dagger might work.
The Bard Sorcerer I mentioned only works because there are melee abilities that use a staff when he's not blowing stuff up with sorcerer powers.

Weapon using builds seem to have this easier but have less diversity.

PnP Fan
2009-05-13, 08:32 AM
I'll give a few more details about our situation, to clarify my goals/requirements, and to answer a few questions that have come up about my original post.

My party consists of: Elven Rogue (MC Fighter), Dragonborn Fighter, 1/2ling Rogue, eladrin Sorc, eladrin Warlord, Tiefling Warlock, and my character, a human wizard. All 4th level.

By and large, we've not had any difficulty dealing with many encounters. In fact we rarely burn through all of our healing surges in a day (melee'ers of course come close fairly often. . .).

For the most part, everyone has built their characters to be optimized in a single arena. About half the party has built heavily focused characters around a single attribute, which is fine, and what I would expect.

In one of our recent encounters, we just about had our butts handed to us by a handful of ghosts. We survived the encounter, but just barely. Even my wizard took some damage in the encounter, and our mellee'ers are usually pretty good at keeping me protected. We actually had help from some NPC ghosts that were part of the encounter. To add to all of this, one of the BBEG's in the campaign is a necromancer. So we *know* we'll be fighting more undead as time passes. It seems that fighting physical undead won't be a problem, however, having radiant damage on hand is going to be useful.

I do, in fact, have Color Spray. And it proved invaluable in defeating the enemy (special effects and double damage!). However, it's not like it does enough damage to finish the encounter, especially when you can't catch more than half the villains in the AoE (we got surrounded), and it's only once during the encounter. Additionally, I don't see anything in the immediate 2 or 3 levels for wizard that provides radiant damage.

So, I see a weakness in our party. It's not huge, but it is pretty obvious, and the GM will be taking advantage of it in the future via previously mentioned BBEG Necromancer. Now, I can't remove the weakness altogether, but I can do something to help patch the hole. Additionally, my character already has a certain devout behavior, particularly when it comes to deities like Ioun and Erathis. So I look around to see what I can do to patch the weakness. As it turns out, Invoker has some at-wills that deal radiant damage. Not as good as a 5th or 6th level power, but better than only 1 option per fight. Plus, it doesn't count against my list of in-class powers.

Okay, so at 6th level, I'll probably take the MC: Invoker feat. When I looked at further details, it looks like I'd get cheated by going for any of the Power Swap feats, except that I'd gain access to radiant damage that I wouldn't normally get much of. What I hadn't realized is that the first MC feat opens access to the paragon paths for the secondary class. That has some tremendous utility.

PnP Fan
2009-05-13, 08:46 AM
Hey, I just wanted to thank you guys for providing input to my little dilema. Feel free to discuss further, I will continue to check/respond the thread as long as folks are posting. I think that I've got my plan of action now, in the absence of overwhelming evidence to go in a different direction.

The plan, for those interested, is to MC to Invoker (lines up with my attributes well, and provides the Religion skill, which will work well with my ability to craft magic items. . .). Then, take one of the Paragon paths from Invoker, possibly the Angelic path, not sure, don't have the book in front of me right now, but I remember some attractive options in the Invoker paragon paths last time I looked at them. I'll need to work with my GM to establish an in-game representation of the multiclassing event, I'm thinking some sort of revelation about the connection between the Gods, Primordials, and the nature of arcane magic.

I knew I could count on the Playground!

Tengu_temp
2009-05-13, 11:22 AM
How high is your wisdom? Multiclassing to invoker might not be a very good idea if you will have trouble hitting the broad side of a barn with its powers.

Burley
2009-05-13, 11:46 AM
How high is your wisdom? Multiclassing to invoker might not be a very good idea if you will have trouble hitting the broad side of a barn with its powers.

I'm assuming his wisdom is around 14-18. Seems like a Thunderwave wizard to me...

Charity
2009-05-15, 03:34 AM
The biggest restriction I see is the Multiple Implement Dependency.

For the best synergy it's best to swap into powers that do not require a change of implement or casting/attacking stat.

So a Druid Shaman with a staff might work.
A charismatic Rogue Sorcerer with a dagger might work.
The Bard Sorcerer I mentioned only works because there are melee abilities that use a staff when he's not blowing stuff up with sorcerer powers.

Weapon using builds seem to have this easier but have less diversity.

There is a feat that allows you to use all your powers with any impliment of any of your classes.
It's a shame invokers don't use holy symbols as the Star of Correllion (sp?) can be used for any arcane spell...
anyhow for the low, low cost of a heroic tier feat all your impliment worries can be solved.
Call now on 555-CLONDYKE for your free introductory offer of a ChammyrodTM to really bring out the grain in your Staff.

Totally Guy
2009-05-15, 04:12 AM
There is a feat that allows you to use all your powers with any impliment of any of your classes.

Complete Arcane is it? That's good but it's yet another feat a multiclass character that's doing something radically different from his original skill set ought to have.

I think weapon folks have the advantage here as there is no such requirements for them.

A paladin gets loads of hit points and Plate armour, a barbarian gets striker powers. Sounds ideal for a high defence, high attack concept and has plenty of weapons to choose between.

Charity
2009-05-15, 04:51 AM
Yeah it's in Arcane Power (you are living in the past Glug old man :smallwink:)

I agree, though..
In fairness a Paladin needs a holy symbol as well as a sword... They really get the smelly end of the stick with both MAD and MID along with the weakest mark, I really hope they get some love in Divine power [/poor old paladins rant]

Artanis
2009-05-15, 11:42 AM
Honest question: what about the Holy Avenger?

I know, I know, there's better stuff you can put on a sword (namely anything except plain "Magic +N"), but still.

Kylarra
2009-05-15, 11:57 AM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Half-Elf and versatile master yet. The best of all multiclassing.