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fendrin
2009-05-14, 09:01 AM
I was right that Wanda was not loyal to Stanley (and so was Jillian...)
I was wrong about her being the Predictamancer.

Oh, and finally the speculation that someone other than Stanley attacked Faq will end. At this point, Wanda has no reason to lie, so I trust the info.

teratorn
2009-05-14, 09:05 AM
Yes, this should send many threads into obscurity. So Wanda was behind Faq's fall but it was all a big misjudgement on Stanley's capability. Yes, he is an imbecile, but he knows his way around a battlefield.

Bucket
2009-05-14, 09:09 AM
Wanda's tone and manner is changing - almost as if the Arkenpliers didn't attune to her... She's attuning to them.

Nicely Done!

Xenon
2009-05-14, 10:02 AM
interesting. the identity of predictomancer revealed, with Strongbad cameo. Wanda and Parson seem to be talking about different things- parson about the win/lose of a game, Wanda about personal loss and hardship (he lost bogroll after all).

SteveMB
2009-05-14, 10:06 AM
Yes, this should send many threads into obscurity. So Wanda was behind Faq's fall but it was all a big misjudgement on Stanley's capability. Yes, he is an imbecile, but he knows his way around a battlefield.

If Wanda's entire life experience was in Faq, she'd have no real idea what real warfare is like -- at most, she might have heard some of Jillian's anecdotes. That would make her misunderestimation of Stanley more likely (even if she'd seen his stats, she might have no real comprehension of what they imply, for the same reason we readers would be hard put to tell from the stats of Unit A and Unit B whether a fight between them would be a rout or a close call that the weaker-statted side might manage to win with clever tactics).

factotum
2009-05-14, 10:37 AM
Yes, this should send many threads into obscurity. So Wanda was behind Faq's fall but it was all a big misjudgement on Stanley's capability. Yes, he is an imbecile, but he knows his way around a battlefield.

I think it's perhaps more likely that he was a high level warlord with a major artifact in his hands, attacking a kingdom which never fought anyone and thus presumably had a lot of low-level opposition.

BBQLord
2009-05-14, 10:38 AM
At this point, Wanda has no reason to lie, so I trust the info. No reason that we, as of now, know of. Still, I'd wager her words can be trusted in this instance.

Now I'm left wondering though. Is Wanda going to leave Stanley's side? Covertly or overtly? Is there any chance she's going to attack Stanley if she likes the odds? Should/will and/or can Parson follow her if she leaves?

Demonicbunny
2009-05-14, 10:41 AM
Interesting.
MC hammers real first name is also Stanley. Or has that been mentioned before?

Killer Angel
2009-05-14, 10:45 AM
If Wanda's entire life experience was in Faq, she'd have no real idea what real warfare is like -- at most, she might have heard some of Jillian's anecdotes. That would make her misunderestimation of Stanley more likely (even if she'd seen his stats, she might have no real comprehension of what they imply, for the same reason we readers would be hard put to tell from the stats of Unit A and Unit B whether a fight between them would be a rout or a close call that the weaker-statted side might manage to win with clever tactics).


Well, I would be afraid by anyone attuned to an arkentool, commanding a flock of Dwagons, with the advantage of surprise. 'specially if the opponent is a small reign with no experience in open warfare, without good warlord and with his most valuable warrior out for a mission...

But i think we must accept wanda's POW, otherwise it's unjustifiable the treachery from her part, given the Duty to FAQ

chefsotero
2009-05-14, 10:46 AM
And on Stanley's pre-Arkenhammer scene he looks kinda whimpie, maybe he "atuned" as well. So maybe his change/megalomania is not only Wandas doing, could be the hammer as well.

And "Stop. Hammertime"?

Priceless

Lunaya
2009-05-14, 10:47 AM
So over the course of a few strips, Wanda goes from super-villain cackling to almost solemn reflection. I love that there's so much we don't know about her. It'll be interesting to see what happens when Stanley gets back. I can see Parson getting caught between them.

Sieggy
2009-05-14, 10:56 AM
What is more interesting is that now we're beginning to get a sense of why Parson is actually here . . . and that his Fate is more than merely being a wrench in Stanley's toolbox. There seems to be a strong sense that Parson's presence is part of what is starting to look like Fate and Plot entwining to change the face of Erfworld. (damned Hippie conspiracies . . .)

There may have been more to the Summoning spell than meets the eye if this is the case . . . It may be that since Parson has no visible stats, he may not be directly subject to the normal rules of Erf, as he is not a 'unit', as are all other inhabitants. In which case, Stanley may be in for one bloody hell of a shock down the line when he tries to disband Parson in a fit of rage and discovers that it doesn't work . . .

I am hoping that Vol.2 goes into the whys and hows of why 'the Perfect Warlord' spell was created to begin with. It strikes me as being a major game breaker in and of itself, which may be why it was created in the first place.

Gez
2009-05-14, 11:15 AM
I'm kinda disappointed that Jillian's theory about the fate of Faq was right. Though knowing her girlfriend was responsible should probably be more devastating than learning she blamed the wrong guy all these years. :smallwink:

Tahnru
2009-05-14, 11:30 AM
I love Wanda's expression in Panel 8. The phrase "Old Eyes" comes to mind.

SteveMB
2009-05-14, 12:05 PM
And on Stanley's pre-Arkenhammer scene he looks kinda whimpie, maybe he "atuned" as well. So maybe his change/megalomania is not only Wandas doing, could be the hammer as well.

I imagine this scene as the first time he tamed a dwagon with the Arkenhammer.

[Looks at dwagon.]

"OK, this'll work...."

[Looks at dwagon again, which somehow seems to have grown much larger and angrier]

"This had better work...."

[Looks at dwagon again. Tries to dispel mental image of the inside of the dwagon's mouth as his last sight on Erf.]

"Please, great Titans, let this work...."

:smallwink:

TazTheTerrible
2009-05-14, 12:22 PM
I was wrong about Stanley not being directly responsible for Faq, but I didn't think Wanda was the predictamancer.

Good update, but "instrument of Fate"? Bleh.

Lolindir
2009-05-14, 12:45 PM
The way I see what Wanda means;

Parson was Fated to die (unwinnable scenario), but because he beat Fate, he has lost.
(Kinda like how religious people say someone's lost if they don't believe in the same God)

Or is this too deep/complex?:smallconfused:

The question remained if Faq was conquered before or after the fall of Saline IV.

My say is before, so that Wanda could plot with Stanley how to get control of the side -> Kill Saline.

Lamech
2009-05-14, 12:59 PM
So FAQ is cleared up. Kinda. Now this still raises the question how many other casters went along with Stanley and Wanda? I think Jack did since he wouldn't turn. Did the predictamancer? Although the gobwins might have killed the predictamancer. How did Wanda contact Stanley? We know Faq has a method of telecommunication (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0092.html), but I don't think it is Wanda; could another caster also betrayed Banhammer? And if three (Four?) casters turned why was he so unliked.

And I think Parson and Wanda are talking about differant things. Parson suffered personal loss, but absolutly crushed the opposition.

Sieggy
2009-05-14, 01:02 PM
Wanda's tone and manner is changing - almost as if the Arkenpliers didn't attune to her... She's attuning to them.

Nicely Done!

Or it may merely be the satisfaction of finally reaching a goal promised long ago. Hers has been a journey marked by frustration and despair . . . and no small amount of guilt over her treachery and having to put up with Stanley. Her faith in Fate has finally been vindicated.

Finally, she has the Pliers, and it's all been worth it. Now she can begin to fulfill the destiny which Fate has in store for her . . . and Parson.

BUT . . . I'm curious to know what it was that Ansom took from her, then. It wasn't Jillian, as she and Wanda went their separate ways when Stanley destroyed FAQ. Jillian never bothered to go back to see what had happened to her, so she couldn't have been THAT concerned about Wanda (or Jack, or even Banhammer, for that matter). And Wanda never bothered to seek out Jillian, and use her mind games to induce Jillian to join her.

She joined Jetstone some time later, so it can't be that Ansom 'took' Jillian from Wanda - Ansom couldn't have been a rival for Jillian's affections if she thought Wanda was croaked, so there has got to be more to it than that.

blackbird71
2009-05-14, 01:06 PM
The way I see what Wanda means;

Parson was Fated to die (unwinnable scenario), but because he beat Fate, he has lost.
(Kinda like how religious people say someone's lost if they don't believe in the same God)

Or is this too deep/complex?:smallconfused:



I think she means that he's lost in the sense of what he has had to become in order to achieve his victory.

Wanda is probably having similar thoughts about her own situation right now. She has the arkentool she was promised, but at what cost?

Jeivar
2009-05-14, 01:39 PM
Hm. Now I'm wondering if Wanda wasn't always so insidiously evil. It could be a case of gradual corruption of her character, after her severe miscalculation got her own kingdom wiped out. Living with guilt, despair, chafing under working for an idiot, failure after failure after failure . . .

Yeah, that could break a person down, given enough time. And it might explain why Jillian had such firm faith in Wanda's better nature. Though I wish Wanda would mention Jillian, so we'd get a clearer picture of where the barbarian fits into all this.

DevilDan
2009-05-14, 02:57 PM
Hm. Now I'm wondering if Wanda wasn't always so insidiously evil. It could be a case of gradual corruption of her character, after her severe miscalculation got her own kingdom wiped out. Living with guilt, despair, chafing under working for an idiot, failure after failure after failure . . .

Yeah, that could break a person down, given enough time. And it might explain why Jillian had such firm faith in Wanda's better nature. Though I wish Wanda would mention Jillian, so we'd get a clearer picture of where the barbarian fits into all this.

Because betraying both your own side (even if only by revealing its existence given that it's greatest defense is its invisibility) and your "ally" Stanley isn't evil. She deserves to feel guilty and more, I'd say.

In all honesty, I'm somewhat disappointed to learn that its as, well, idiotically simple as this. Seriously, what good is fate if you need to do all that to make it happen? And didn't Wanda know about the predicted downfall of Faq? If there is no way around prophecies, I guess you immediately lose to Fate if you don't act directly to see a prophecy fulfilled.

BLANDCorporatio
2009-05-14, 03:14 PM
Well, some questions answered ... for example it seems a lot likely that what Ansom and Jillian said about Stanley destroying Faq is true. I for one am pleased that it wasn't the Jetstones that destroyed Faq, that would have been ... meh.

On the other hand, we have several questions opening.

Why is Jack loyal to Stanley (even though he was given the chance to turn)?

Where did Ansom find the Pliers? They were not at Faq, and the Pliers were held as the answer to this next question-

What, exactly, did Ansom take from Wanda?

fendrin
2009-05-14, 04:02 PM
Why is Jack loyal to Stanley (even though he was given the chance to turn)?

Jack may be under a loyalty spell, or he may be loyal to Wanda. It will be interesting to find out which (if either, or even both).


What, exactly, did Ansom take from Wanda?

I still think Wanda was referring to Jillian. Not that Ansom took her prior to the comic, but rather at the lake battle. Jillian chose Ansom over Wanda. If Wanda loves Jillian, it would make sense for Wanda to (irrationally) blame Ansom.

R. Malcovitch
2009-05-14, 04:40 PM
Why is Jack loyal to Stanley (even though he was given the chance to turn)?

No he wasn't. That was foolamancy, while Jillian was battling the fake stanley/jack/dragon the real trio was escaping.

hajo
2009-05-14, 06:24 PM
why 'the Perfect Warlord' spell was created ..
It strikes me as being a major game breaker in and of itself

Considering that the spell produced several artifacts, where the battle-calculator alone is worth more than the cost of the spell, maybe it was 'sponsored' by the hippiemancers :smallamused:

Opal Tide
2009-05-14, 06:27 PM
Is it possible the predictamancer also gave Jack a prediction?

Maybe somehting like the only way he would be with Jillian is if FAQ fell to Stanley and Stanley stayed alive for X amount of time. That would be a strong incentive stay do Stanley's bidding but not necessarily be loyal to Stanley.

Also I am not entirely convinved loyalty exists. We have been told it exists but if Wanda can but her own Kingdom at risk and claim she is loyal to Fate magic maybe it is just something everybody thinks exists. Sort of like a self fulfilling prophecy: people are loyal because they think they should be loyal.

Spot
2009-05-14, 06:55 PM
Considering that the spell produced several artifacts, where the battle-calculator alone is worth more than the cost of the spell, maybe it was 'sponsored' by the hippiemancers :smallamused:


This ties into my "It was all a Hippiemancer/Caster conspiracy" theory :smallbiggrin:


Wanda betrayed FAQ to Stanley based on (a loose interpretation of) the predictamancer's advice...

...and the one, and only, battle that we know Stanley managed to win was the conquest of FAQ.

After that, it was a loooooong losing streak as he lost every single city he had, up until it was time for the Hippiemancers to suggest the "Perfect Warlord" spell... made by Predictamancers and Lookamancers.

So... either Stanley got brilliant *once*, and only once, in his entire life... or the fall of FAQ was stage-managed from elsewhere.

In fact, I strongly suspect that the death of King Saline IV was stage-managed by the same bunch of folks.

I bet that Janice (the Grand Abie), and Jack, and the Predictamancer from FAQ, are all linked somehow.

SteveD
2009-05-14, 07:07 PM
I still think Wanda was referring to Jillian. Not that Ansom took her prior to the comic, but rather at the lake battle. Jillian chose Ansom over Wanda. If Wanda loves Jillian, it would make sense for Wanda to (irrationally) blame Ansom.

My thoughts exactly. We now know why Wanda never tried to turn Jillian to her side; it would mean telling her the truth of Faq and risk loosing her. Instead she clung on to Jillian with a compulsion spell, and lost her anyway.

But if you re-read the battle over the lake baring in mind that Jillian is Wanda's only link to what she lost to pursue her path, it takes on a slightly new meaning.

It would also seem that the conflict between the revived Wanda and Jillian was more then just a defensive fight; Wanda realised she couldn't keep anything of her past and tried to kill Jillian. I don't think she will show much remorse or pity for what happened to Ansom at their next meeting.

Edit: Its also kinda spooky how much sense Wanda's little poem makes now;

"Rejoice, despair.
Fate Does not care.
Each knotted mind entwined,
Each soul, another's bind.
And blind, although we are led,
In time, we do know when to cut a thread."

glissle
2009-05-14, 08:20 PM
Considering that the spell produced several artifacts, where the battle-calculator alone is worth more than the cost of the spell, maybe it was 'sponsored' by the hippiemancers :smallamused:

Hmm, the hippiemancers might have arranged for the spell to choose a non-in-game person so that he would be able to literally set aside his combat prowess, ruthlessness, and ability to view people as numbers (calculator & glasses). He is the only warlord on Erf who is compartmentalized that way.

MadScientistMat
2009-05-14, 09:01 PM
Not only does this answer a lot of questions, it also makes me wonder if it was Wanda, not Stanley, who had Saline killed. A bigger unanswered question is that it looks like Faq did pop Wanda as a croakmancer, instead of capturing her - is that the case, and if so, why?

IronBear
2009-05-14, 09:27 PM
Not only does this answer a lot of questions, it also makes me wonder if it was Wanda, not Stanley, who had Saline killed. A bigger unanswered question is that it looks like Faq did pop Wanda as a croakmancer, instead of capturing her - is that the case, and if so, why?
I am guessing that you donít get to choose what sort of caster you get when you put in an order for one. As Sizemore mentioned earlier there are powerful and effective combination such as combining mathmancy with luckmancy. If cities could customize make their casters then every side would have this combination.

Fuzzy_Juan
2009-05-14, 09:29 PM
ahh...nvm...i just relized what was going on...

So...the story is that Stanley was a piker at Gobwin Knob under King Saline IV, he found the Arkenhammer and was promoted through the ranks and even became an heir...

before or after he took off on his mission, he likely met with Wanda who made a proposition. Likely it was she who persuaded the Gobwins to break their alliance...either so that Stanley could return and get killed, or so that he could become overlord. After that, he went out in search of more Arkentools...Wanda led him to Faq in the hopes he would then fail and die, but he succeeded and so she decided to serve him and see where things went.

Seems while he was in Faq he picked up Jack as well...I wonder why Jack chose to serve Stanley...he regained his senses eventually, and even though he saw Jillian, he chose to protect Stanley and help Parson. That will likely be some sort of plot point.

SteveMB
2009-05-14, 09:59 PM
...and the one, and only, battle that we know Stanley managed to win was the conquest of FAQ.

From Sizemore's account (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F079.jpg): "As a Warlord, he found the Arkenhammer, which he used to tame dwagons and win a lot of battles." -- emphasis added.


So... either Stanley got brilliant *once*, and only once, in his entire life... or the fall of FAQ was stage-managed from elsewhere.

Once an outsider found Faq and brought in a strong attack force, it would hardly require stage-managing to defeat a bunch of "clerks" (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F082.jpg). If any stage-managing was involved, it was to have the invasion happen while Jillian and her gwiffon squad were out of town. (Why? Did Wanda so underestimate Stanley, or so overestimate Faq's hapless regular army, that she thought Jillian wouldn't be needed and it was best for her to be out of the way, just in case?)


Also I am not entirely convinved loyalty exists. We have been told it exists but if Wanda can but her own Kingdom at risk and claim she is loyal to Fate magic maybe it is just something everybody thinks exists. Sort of like a self fulfilling prophecy: people are loyal because they think they should be loyal.

It could be that Erfworlders, who know that stats like Move and Attack exist, have created the "stat" of Loyalty to explain behavior in the same way that ancient astronomers created epicycles to explain planetary motion, and with no more basis in reality. I suspect that the question will never be definitively answered, and that everything that happens will be explainable either in terms of Loyalty and Duty or in terms of normal psychology and motivation.

hajo
2009-05-14, 10:56 PM
the one, and only, battle that we know Stanley managed to win was the conquest of FAQ.

Actually, Sizemore told (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0087.html) that "he started as a piker, got promoted to warlord, found the arkenhammer, tamed dwagons and won many battles".

Finding the Arkenhammer was most likely luck.
Getting his first promotion, and his success as warlord looks to me as competence - on the battlefield.
It just happens that he is not a competent overlord :smallwink:

DevilDan
2009-05-14, 11:43 PM
Finding the Arkenhammer was most likely luck.

Or was it Fate?

DoctorJest
2009-05-15, 02:01 AM
Interesting.
MC hammers real first name is also Stanley. Or has that been mentioned before?

I think it's more in reference to the Stanley Tool Company, whose logo you see when Jack was still making poor attempts at veiling the dwagons as blimps

afu
2009-05-15, 03:34 AM
A bigger unanswered question is that it looks like Faq did pop Wanda as a croakmancer, instead of capturing her - is that the case, and if so, why?

Wanda says "In the hidden kingdom of FAQ, where I once served," which to me seems like it was one of many places, but I could be wrong.

One of the big questions about erf is how old are the units. If you don't croak in battle do you never die? Since Wanda is a master class caster, she could be very very old.

ShiningTed
2009-05-15, 03:53 AM
I don't get the Faq thing. Wanda says she met Stanley when he was a warlord (ie before the coup of Saline IV) and they conquered Faq.

Why did it remain hidden, and not become another of Saline IV's holdings? I am assuming all the other cities Stanley lost since the start of the war (like Warchalking) were originally Saline IV's, since Wanda says he hasn't won a battle since starting his quest for the Arkentools... so why not Faq?

Frogpop
2009-05-15, 06:10 AM
Maybe the upkeep for properly defending the city would've outweighed any income derived from farming or whatever they did in FAQ. Nevermind all the rebuilding needed after the sack. Without Jillian pulling in funds from her mercenary work occupying FAQ would've been a financial loser compared to Saline's other cities.

Ellye
2009-05-15, 06:23 AM
I like how Erfworld manage to make even "evil" characters be loveable sometimes. Stanley expression in the second panel is really... cute, and Wanda seems to be a lot more open and talkative right now.

HandofShadows
2009-05-15, 10:03 AM
Bang, go a lot of my theories. But it's nice to know what happened. Now we can start working on NEW theories. :smallbiggrin:

BillyJimBoBob
2009-05-15, 10:14 AM
Actually, Sizemore told (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0087.html) that "he started as a piker, got promoted to warlord, found the arkenhammer, tamed dwagons and won many battles".

Finding the Arkenhammer was most likely luck.
Getting his first promotion, and his success as warlord looks to me as competence - on the battlefield.
It just happens that he is not a competent overlord :smallwink:Remember that Wanda has been with Stanley since before he became Overlord of GK. His apparent strategic incompetence could be due to Wanda's behind the scenes manipulations. Stanley himself seemed to be completely oblivious to the scope of the forces arrayed against him, underestimating it by almost an order of magnitude. With the eyemancer link up this would seem to be an impossible scenario, unless he was being led to overconfidence by a trusted adviser. But even that doesn't fit the story, as right at the start of TBfGK we see Wanda telling Stanley just how hopeless his position is.

*sigh* Yet more inconsistencies to be sorted out.

We need to see Stanley reach GK, his reactions to Parson winning an unwinnable battle, and how the three of them (Stanley, Parson, and Wanda) interact. Then this book can be put to bed and we can start learning the back story behind Wanda's quest for an arkentool.

Stegyre
2009-05-15, 10:26 AM
I think it's more in reference to the Stanley Tool Company, whose logo you see when Jack was still making poor attempts at veiling the dwagons as blimps
Actually, there's really no reason for it not to be a reference to both. (And didn't someone previously also point up a K.I.S.S. Stanley reference, as well?)

Amusing to see that Stanley's been a "tool" for quite some time, whether of the Titans, or Fate, or Wanda.

I'm casting my vote with the following theories, already mentioned:

1. Wanda was behind Saline IV's regicide. (Stanley was doubtless a far more useful, and manipulable, tool than Saline, and for someone who has already arguably betrayed her own starting kingdom, betraying the leader of the new kingdom she's turned to seems like small potatoes.)

2. The hippiemancers/magic kingdom prepped that warlord spell for a reason -- not necessarily the "reason" disclosed to prospective buyers.

Jack's role (including the apparent loyalty to Stanley), and Wanda's involvement (if any) in the perfect warlord spell, remain unresolved.

While I did not think it possible previously, I'd not be surprised at this point if Wanda managed to "demote" Stanley back to warlord under Parson. Loyalty does not bind her (at least, not to Stanley); she has an arkentool and an army to at least rival Stanley and his returning dwagons; and her past role as kingmaker is strongly implied.

Inst
2009-05-15, 11:54 AM
My worry right now is that Wanda is going to kill Parson and then decrypt him to obtain loyalty. But it'll be pretty annoying if Parson becomes a psychic slave; Ansom (Handsome?) is really boring now that Wanda's decrypted him.

I don't think it's so much that the arkenpliers are magically modifying Wanda's personality, insomuch as subterfuge is no longer required since Wanda's achieved her goal.

kagato23
2009-05-15, 12:39 PM
Actually, there's really no reason for it not to be a reference to both. (And didn't someone previously also point up a K.I.S.S. Stanley reference, as well?)

Amusing to see that Stanley's been a "tool" for quite some time, whether of the Titans, or Fate, or Wanda.

I'm casting my vote with the following theories, already mentioned:

1. Wanda was behind Saline IV's regicide. (Stanley was doubtless a far more useful, and manipulable, tool than Saline, and for someone who has already arguably betrayed her own starting kingdom, betraying the leader of the new kingdom she's turned to seems like small potatoes.)

2. The hippiemancers/magic kingdom prepped that warlord spell for a reason -- not necessarily the "reason" disclosed to prospective buyers.

Jack's role (including the apparent loyalty to Stanley), and Wanda's involvement (if any) in the perfect warlord spell, remain unresolved.

While I did not think it possible previously, I'd not be surprised at this point if Wanda managed to "demote" Stanley back to warlord under Parson. Loyalty does not bind her (at least, not to Stanley); she has an arkentool and an army to at least rival Stanley and his returning dwagons; and her past role as kingmaker is strongly implied.


I'm not so sure of that.

My theory is that they were using deception by assumption. They told the truth, and let others thinks what they may.

See, the spell did what it said. It summoned the perfect warlord. Just not necessarily the perfect warlord for a side, but perhaps the perfect warlord for erf.

ishnar
2009-05-15, 01:08 PM
It could be that Erfworlders, who know that stats like Move and Attack exist, have created the "stat" of Loyalty to explain behavior in the same way that ancient astronomers created epicycles to explain planetary motion, and with no more basis in reality. I suspect that the question will never be definitively answered, and that everything that happens will be explainable either in terms of Loyalty and Duty or in terms of normal psychology and motivation.

Thank you, I've been trying to think of a good analogy and you beat me to it. A good reasonable explanation based on existing knowledge, that was still totally wrong.

fractal
2009-05-15, 02:48 PM
My worry right now is that Wanda is going to kill Parson and then decrypt him to obtain loyalty. But it'll be pretty annoying if Parson becomes a psychic slave; Ansom (Handsome?) is really boring now that Wanda's decrypted him.

I don't think it's so much that the arkenpliers are magically modifying Wanda's personality, insomuch as subterfuge is no longer required since Wanda's achieved her goal.
Well,Wanda mght try, but Parson has that handy dwagon flying overhead. I can definitely picture him barely escaping from Wanda on it, leaving her in possession of Gobwin Knob.

Sethram
2009-05-15, 03:51 PM
interesting. the identity of predictomancer revealed, with Strongbad cameo. Wanda and Parson seem to be talking about different things- parson about the win/lose of a game, Wanda about personal loss and hardship (he lost bogroll after all).

The masks on the wall actually come from Tokusatsu series. http://www.erfworld.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=148&start=100#p1689

ChowGuy
2009-05-15, 04:06 PM
Also I am not entirely convinved loyalty exists. We have been told it exists but if Wanda can but her own Kingdom at risk and claim she is loyal to Fate magic maybe it is just something everybody thinks exists. Sort of like a self fulfilling prophecy: people are loyal because they think they should be loyal.
There have been a lot of comments like this, and speculation as to why Jack apparently remains loyal to GK. But since since we're all speculating, heres a SWAG for you. Mosy people are so hung up on the Wanda is EEEVIL theme that I don't think anyone's bothered to ask is if Wanda actually did betray Banhammer. Treason requires that you act not only against the ultimate good of your side, but that you do so deliberately. Did she?

Submitted for your consideration: We know that she acted as she did on the word of the predictamancer, but by her own admission she did "nothing at first." It was not until she learned that a (presumably unknown at the time) warlord had found the Arkenhammer that sge took action. But was it her initiative alone, or did Banhammer, who put enough stock in his predictamancer to have an heir popped, go along with the idea? Stupid perhaps to attemp to attract someone with a flock of Dwagons, but if FAQ was Stanley's first action after coming into possession of the Hammer, (And given his "need a new battle cry" comment it's entirely possible) then neither of them may have been aware that A) he had attuned to it, and B) what that would entail. For all they knew it was no more real use to him then the Pliers were to Ansom.

It would help explain Jack's "loyalty" if he and the Predictamancer had been in on the plot as well; he and Wanda may both feel that they're still carrying out Banhammer's orders. But Jillian (who would have known better) probably was not. If Banhammer despised her and likely would not have wanted her to claim the Hammer in battle for herself (and she would have). Being away at the fateful moment may or may not have been part of the plan though, she "loved" the thrill of battle and was apparently always headstrong enough that she may have gone out on her own at the worst possible time. Which would make her responsible for her own kingdom's fall. Does she somehow know or suspect this, and is this why she's never gone back to see?

I can so see her not only leaving on that last mission without orders, but against orders to stay, the reason which might not have been revealed. This is not[ of course something she's likely to have mentioned in her recounting of the events to Ansom.

Kilkrazy
2009-05-15, 04:23 PM
Maybe the upkeep for properly defending the city would've outweighed any income derived from farming or whatever they did in FAQ. Nevermind all the rebuilding needed after the sack. Without Jillian pulling in funds from her mercenary work occupying FAQ would've been a financial loser compared to Saline's other cities.

Sack usually implies thoroughly trashing a city, massacring or carrying off the population and all the treasure, and burning what is left behind.

In Erfworld this is possibly a game mechanism which converts a capital site into a potential city/capital site needing a lot of money to start a new capital.

Otherwise Jillian, being the heir to FAQ would have been able to occupy the city as soon as Stanley left, and start to rebuild.

glissle
2009-05-15, 04:57 PM
Wanda says "In the hidden kingdom of FAQ, where I once served," which to me seems like it was one of many places, but I could be wrong.

Perhaps Wanda had low loyalty to Faq because Jillian captured her and then Banhammer ordered her to cast non-croakamancy spells.


Stanley himself seemed to be completely oblivious to the scope of the forces arrayed against him, underestimating it by almost an order of magnitude. With the eyemancer link up this would seem to be an impossible scenario

Since Erf combat is as much about force multipliers as it is about number of units, the problem may have been that Stanley's attention span didn't scale up enough to sniff out the force multipliers scattered among the multitudes of the RCC. They probably all blurred together into an average appearance of mediocrity.

Also, he probably relied a lot on flying rings around his enemies and got careless about defending territory. There are certainly other examples of his lack of concern for defense, such as losing GK briefly to the gobwins (it worked out well for him, but it may have been a failure of imagination rather than Duty).

Bookkeeper@Arms
2009-05-15, 09:39 PM
Note Panel 7 - Parson's face and his steepled fingers. He's in Gamemaster mode.

He's already processed everything and is formulating devious strategy while Wanda is still exulting in her ascension to demi-goddess-hood.

Wanda's going to find her fortunes reversed in short order.

Often Normal
2009-05-15, 11:13 PM
I find the idea of "loyalty" (as either a stat or something similar) in a world where the consequence of any action could result in your being disbanded (effectively killed with a thought?) rather interesting.

Frogpop
2009-05-16, 12:15 AM
In Erfworld this is possibly a game mechanism which converts a capital site into a potential city/capital site needing a lot of money to start a new capital.

Otherwise Jillian, being the heir to FAQ would have been able to occupy the city as soon as Stanley left, and start to rebuild.

"Able" isn't the problem.. it's "willing". If it was just money she needed, she could've started saving, or borrowed it from Ansom, or sacked someone else, or something. More likely, no matter how much or little it would cost to rebuild FAQ or refound at FAQ, Jillian just didn't want to.

Bookkeeper@Arms
2009-05-16, 02:07 AM
"Able" isn't the problem.. it's "willing". If it was just money she needed, she could've started saving, or borrowed it from Ansom, or sacked someone else, or something. More likely, no matter how much or little it would cost to rebuild FAQ or refound at FAQ, Jillian just didn't want to.

More likely she couldn't for safety reasons. Stanley didn't claim the ruins of Faq, but it was still an area he had conquered. If Jillian had re-founded Faq, would Stanley have been able to detect it?

After all, someone founding a new side inside a controlled zone is guaranteed to get the controlling party to attack in every strategy game I've played. If Jillian had re-founded Faq, Stanley might have been able to detect it and would have attacked. If Faq couldn't hold him off when it was at it's height, how could a newly-founded Class 1 city defend itself?

So, at best guess, Jillian didn't re-found the city at that point because doing so would make Stanley return and finish the extermination job.

Could she re-found now? Does Faq qualify as controlled territory now that the RCC forces have barred Stanley from access? Or could she count on the Transylvito/RCC forces to shield New Faq while it builds it's defenses?

EDIT: A question just occurred to me. If Jillian re-founds Faq, what about Wanda? Would the Power of Loyalty suddenly force Wanda - a Faq native - to be Loyal to Jillian? Or not?

BBQLord
2009-05-16, 08:48 AM
EDIT: A question just occurred to me. If Jillian re-founds Faq, what about Wanda? Would the Power of Loyalty suddenly force Wanda - a Faq native - to be Loyal to Jillian? Or not?

Why do you assume one can re-found at all? Faq is completely gone (didn't Jillian turn Barbarian when it fell?). Now, Jillian might found her own side and name it Faq, but it would be the same in name (and possibly location) only.

It seems to make more sense that one'd get a new side for all intents and purposes.

Fuzzy_Juan
2009-05-16, 09:11 AM
Sack usually implies thoroughly trashing a city, massacring or carrying off the population and all the treasure, and burning what is left behind.

In Erfworld this is possibly a game mechanism which converts a capital site into a potential city/capital site needing a lot of money to start a new capital.

Otherwise Jillian, being the heir to FAQ would have been able to occupy the city as soon as Stanley left, and start to rebuild.

There are several games in which there are established city cites and cities can only be built there barring story concerns. These cities can be captured or razed. If you capture it, most things are intact, many times in such games, you can simply destroy the city if you want to leave it a wreck, or keep it as is post battle and build it up. If you aren't currently in a position to hold the territory, sometimes you are just better off demolishing it and moving on. Take anything of value and the leave. It takes resources and divides forces to hold a city. Make someone else devote the time and resources to doing that.

Gez
2009-05-16, 10:45 AM
Why do you assume one can re-found at all?

Yeah, that's an odd assumption to make. I mean, maybe if a character in the story, one who has every reasons to know how Erfworld work and whether it's possible or not, would have made the same assumption... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0092.html)

teratorn
2009-05-16, 11:35 AM
My worry right now is that Wanda is going to kill Parson and then decrypt him to obtain loyalty.

It doesn't fit with the picture emerging from Wanda's character. As she said the world wished for Parson. I think that she'd follow Parson's orders even if she had the means to abandon GK. Parson allows her to keep serving Fate.

hobgoblen924
2009-05-17, 01:35 AM
What is more interesting is that now we're beginning to get a sense of why Parson is actually here . . . and that his Fate is more than merely being a wrench in Stanley's toolbox. There seems to be a strong sense that Parson's presence is part of what is starting to look like Fate and Plot entwining to change the face of Erfworld. (damned Hippie conspiracies . . .)

There may have been more to the Summoning spell than meets the eye if this is the case . . . It may be that since Parson has no visible stats, he may not be directly subject to the normal rules of Erf, as he is not a 'unit', as are all other inhabitants. In which case, Stanley may be in for one bloody hell of a shock down the line when he tries to disband Parson in a fit of rage and discovers that it doesn't work . . .

I am hoping that Vol.2 goes into the whys and hows of why 'the Perfect Warlord' spell was created to begin with. It strikes me as being a major game breaker in and of itself, which may be why it was created in the first place.

has it occured to anyone else that perhaps the hippiemancers intended for parson to arrive and end all fighting as they know it? "Perfect Warlord" really is a game breaker otherwise. i think stanley was duped

fendrin
2009-05-17, 06:00 AM
has it occured to anyone else that perhaps the hippiemancers intended for parson to arrive and end all fighting as they know it? "Perfect Warlord" really is a game breaker otherwise. i think stanley was duped

It was the findamancers and predictamancers that forged the spell. Not the hippiemancers. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0005.html)

Lkctgo
2009-05-17, 09:53 AM
I am beginning to like Wanda more and more now! Her evil-like disposition attracts me!