PDA

View Full Version : Half-elf duo builds



Quietus
2009-05-16, 03:12 AM
So, I'm looking to set up for the possible eventuality of my Druid getting killed; She's one of the longest-surviving members of the party so far, but certain activities recently have made her a pretty big target.

Her replacement, when it finally happens, is going to be her son and daughter; Son primary, with Leadership, to gain his sister as a cohort. They are half-elves, and as things are going right now, are likely to be part of a special ops-style squad dedicated to hunting down and eradicating the aberrant Drow.

I'm limited basically to 3.5 core books, material from older 3.0 books, and the tamest material from the Complete series; No Tome of Battle, or any other alternate systems, and no newer core races. The basics of the two characters are :

Male : Quick, opportunistic fighter. Glass-cannon type, hoping to throw lots of damage without entirely giving up defense. My thoughts right now waver back and forth between an Arcane Trickster build to make use of Chill Touch, or some combination of Rogue/Ranger (currently favoring Rog3/Rgr2 or straight Rgr5, with Favored Enemy : Elf) before entering Assassin. The former would be a little more feat-intensive, and perhaps a bit redundant because of his sister. The latter fits more with my idea of how he would work (sneaky, trained in woodlands originally before being shown how to do the same in caves), but I'm worried about his damage output, given that his primary role WOULD be damage-dealing. I don't know if I can get Arcane Strike past my DM; If I could, I'd probably lean more toward Arcane Trickster.


Female : Support-style pure caster. Focusses on mass buffs (haste would be her favored first-round action), with aims to get high save DC's and good rays to provide debuffs, and a touch of battlefield control for good measure. Currently considering straight Wizard with a possible eventual aim for Archmage, or maybe Loremaster leading into the same.



The female is pretty straightforward, though any basic DC-boosting options would be nice to know. I more need help considering options for the male, because my knowledge of old 3e material is not up to snuff, and my DM is a little odd when it comes to what he feels is overpowered - which includes about 90% of any splatbooks released for 3.5

Berserk Monk
2009-05-16, 03:15 AM
Half-elf? Really? Why would you want to go and throw your race away? Granted, druids are over powered, but still, don't try making a balanced character! POWERGAME! POWERGAME! POWERGAME!

Quietus
2009-05-16, 04:12 AM
Half-elf? Really? Why would you want to go and throw your race away? Granted, druids are over powered, but still, don't try making a balanced character! POWERGAME! POWERGAME! POWERGAME!

It might have something to do with the fact that :

A) I am currently playing their mother, an Elven druidess.
B) It has already been established that she looks down on humans after having watched her human husband grow old and die of old age
C) Her children are thus half-elven, being born of an Elven woman and a Human man.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-16, 08:35 AM
For the male, Complete Adventurer introduced the Scout, which gets combat benefits for moving, but has fluff similar to the Ranger. If you can get that allowed, the Swift Hunter or Swift Ambusher feats are awesome(but may be banned). I recommend Scout/Rogue with Improved Skirmish and Swift Ambusher, then have his sister open every battle with Grease to make opponents flat-footed.

LOLC2k
2009-05-16, 10:10 AM
It might have something to do with the fact that :

A) I am currently playing their mother, an Elven druidess.
B) It has already been established that she looks down on humans after having watched her human husband grow old and die of old age
C) Her children are thus half-elven, being born of an Elven woman and a Human man.

Maybe they got reincarnated? *winks*

The Manly Man
2009-05-16, 12:48 PM
It might have something to do with the fact that :

A) I am currently playing their mother, an Elven druidess.
B) It has already been established that she looks down on humans after having watched her human husband grow old and die of old age
C) Her children are thus half-elven, being born of an Elven woman and a Human man.
Maybe one's a full elf and one's a human? Those darn genetics...

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-16, 01:08 PM
Rogue 4/ Wizard 1/ Assassin 5/ Arcane Trickster 10, applying AT spellcasting to Wizard, makes a decent sneak attack build. You could replace Wizard 1 with Warlock 1 and use the feat Spell Hand (CA) to meet the Mage Hand prerequisite. That can make a decent ranged sneak attacker, especially once you can get Eldritch Chain. Practiced Spellcaster is a must have, and Deadly Precision would also be useful later on.

Some of the best Wizard debuffs don't allow a saving throw or don't matter if they save, such as Web, Solid Fog, and Enervation. The Spell Compendium has Ray of Dizziness, Ray of Light, and Freezing Fog. Maybe have her go Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10, which with Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler can apply 9/10 UM spellcasting toward Wizard. Use Split Ray a lot, you'll probably want point-blank shot and precise shot, and use a bow when you're not casting spells.

Edit: Ghost-Faced Killer in Complete Adventurer would also be worth checking out, if you decide not to use Arcane Trickster.

Quietus
2009-05-16, 01:21 PM
For the male, Complete Adventurer introduced the Scout, which gets combat benefits for moving, but has fluff similar to the Ranger. If you can get that allowed, the Swift Hunter or Swift Ambusher feats are awesome(but may be banned). I recommend Scout/Rogue with Improved Skirmish and Swift Ambusher, then have his sister open every battle with Grease to make opponents flat-footed.

No base classes outside of the core, preferrably, and the DM would never allow me to take the Swift Ambusher feat. If I could, I'd be all over that, but I'd forgotten momentarily about the Grease deal. I'll definitely have to remember to rank up Balance.

And please, stop complaining about the races. They are what they are, they're not going to be something else. This group is low-optimization in general, which doesn't really help when the DM likes to throw extremely dangerous things at us.. so I'm trying to strike a balance between optimizing for when it's needed, and not going overboard and overshadowing the party. Right now our current strongest party member is a Barbarian7, who routinely does damage in the low 20's without power attacking, but has 15 AC and so tends to get knocked unconscious every big fight.

The Rog4/Wizard1/Assassin5/ArcTr10 build is interesting.. I do like that. Seems a little clunky, though, to have partial casting like that. I might be able to research Mage Hand into assassin, though... or is there a feat that allows me to cast it 1/day? I actually really like Assassin casting, as it has almost everything I could need in it, without going into the brokenness that is Wizard casting. And ultimately, if I were to NEED to take a level of Wizard, I would probably give up the 2d6 sneak attack to use my Wizard spellcasting in qualifying for Arcane Trickster. Yes, I like Assassin casting, but if I have to take one level of Wizard, there's not a lot of spells I'd really need. Though I guess having a Feather Fall or two prepared in any given day isn't a bad thing... and access to Identify..

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-16, 01:33 PM
No base classes outside of the core, preferrably, and the DM would never allow me to take the Swift Ambusher feat. If I could, I'd be all over that, but I'd forgotten momentarily about the Grease deal. I'll definitely have to remember to rank up Balance.Pitch the scout as a weaker, movement-based Rogue. It's the flavor you want without nerfing SA through multiclassing. Swift Ambusher was just a potential perk.

If you can't, though, and ToB is out, it's tough to make movement-based fighters. Belt of Battle works 3x/day to lt you move+full attack, or an item of Hustle at-will costs 14,400 GP.

Quietus
2009-05-16, 02:10 PM
Pitch the scout as a weaker, movement-based Rogue. It's the flavor you want without nerfing SA through multiclassing. Swift Ambusher was just a potential perk.

If you can't, though, and ToB is out, it's tough to make movement-based fighters. Belt of Battle works 3x/day to lt you move+full attack, or an item of Hustle at-will costs 14,400 GP.

This is my biggest problem with Scout; Anything that makes it really decent won't be allowed. Swift Ambusher, in my DM's mind, makes me Gestalt, so it's out. ToB is out. Belt of Battle is Magic Item Compendium I think, so that's out. And I'm not sure where Hustle is from, but odds are good that it's out, as well. This DM in particular doesn't really understand how optimization works, at least not as well as I do.. And in this case, the build I'm looking for is just off-the-wall enough, and I'm tired enough, that I figured asking for help would be good.


Now... toying with that "Hunter"'s build. If I keep the Ranger2 in there, I get two free feats that would both help; Track, and two-weapon fighting. That being said, if I go straight Rogue for five levels, I'll have ...

Level 1 : Two-weapon Fighting
Level 3 : Weapon Finesse/Track (depending on how my scores line up)
Level 6 : Leadership

If I go Rog3/Ranger2 (in that order, build-wise), I'll have..

Level 1 : Combat Reflexes
Level 3 : Weapon Finesse
Ranger1 : Track
Ranger2 : Two-weapon fighting
Level 6 : Leadership

Along with a BAB of +4 at level 5. The first has only +3. I lose some skill points and damage with the second build, but gain two feats; This is a worthwhile tradeoff to me. I think I'd then pick up Dodge and Mobility at levels 9 and 12, and make level 13 a single level dip into Shadowdancer, making me Rog3/Rgr2/Assassin7/Shadowdancer1. This gives me sneak attack 6d6 at level 13, only one level behind a straight-levelled Rogue, with additional feats, fourth-level Assassin spellcasting, and Hide in Plain Sight.

Assassin spells known would include : 1st level : Feather Fall, Jump, Obscuring Mist, True Strike. 2nd level : Spider Climb, Invisibility, two others (Alter Self and Pass Without Trace/Undetectable Alignment?). 3rd level : Magic Circle against Good, two others (False Life and.. not sure what else). Fourth level : Two from among Greater Invisibility, Freedom of Movement, and Dimension Door. Depending on my Hide check at this point, I might skip the Greater Invis until next Assassin level, where I pick up a third known.

The Arcane Trickster build is definitely interesting, but ultimately, the third level of Assassin spellcasting isn't all that spectacular - its best spells rely on caster level checks (Which are fail for an Assassin), or Will saves from casters negate them completely (Thinking about Misdirection here). The real power I find in Assassin casting is in the second and third spell levels. And then turning around and applying Arcane Trickster casting advances to Wizard casting leaves me with two gimped spellcasting types, and low caster levels tend to drive me up the wall.


On the other hand, I might toy with the idea of Sor6/Rog3 or Sor6/Rog1/Assassin1 entry into Arcane Trickster. The level 1 Assassin spells would give me a Feather Fall 1/day if I can get 12+ int, which isn't hugely spectacular, but IS very nice to have. Plus poison use; If he's gonna hunt Drow, it'd be nice to say "I take and use their poison". Of course, my BAB for this will suck, but that's what Chill Touch is for.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-16, 02:25 PM
Tell your DM about the Stormwind Fallacy (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-822626); no matter how unoptimized a character is, it will never make them role-played better; no matter how optimized a character is, it never automatically diminishes how well they're role-played.

The feat Spell Hand in Complete Arcane gives you a few spell-like abilities usable 1/day, including Mage Hand. You could go Rogue 5/ Assassin 5/ Arcane Trickster 10 with that feat, and with Practiced Spellcaster your caster level will only be one point behind. Wizard levels would allow you to get spells like Bladeweave and ranged touch attacks that can be used for Sneak Attack. You should also check out the Daggerspell Mage in Complete Adventurer. If you go with Ranger, check the Elf Ranger's favored enemy substitution in Races of the Wild, if you pick 'servants of Lolth' your bonus will be +3 instead of +2, and go up by +3 each time you choose that one again.

Morty
2009-05-16, 02:28 PM
Tell your DM about the Stormwind Fallacy (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-822626); no matter how unoptimized a character is, it will never make them role-played better; no matter how optimized a character is, it never automatically diminishes how well they're role-played.


Sorry to be off-topic, but how exactly does that apply here?

Quietus
2009-05-16, 02:29 PM
Tell your DM about the Stormwind Fallacy (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-822626); no matter how unoptimized a character is, it will never make them role-played better; no matter how optimized a character is, it never automatically diminishes how well they're role-played.

The feat Spell Hand in Complete Arcane gives you a few spell-like abilities usable 1/day, including Mage Hand. You could go Rogue 5/ Assassin 5/ Arcane Trickster 10 with that feat, and with Practiced Spellcaster your caster level will only be one point behind. Wizard levels would allow you to get spells like Bladeweave and ranged touch attacks that can be used for Sneak Attack. You should also check out the Daggerspell Mage in Complete Adventurer. If you go with Ranger, check the Elf Ranger's favored enemy substitution in Races of the Wild, if you pick 'servants of Lolth' your bonus will be +3 instead of +2, and go up by +3 each time you choose that one again.

Your argument regarding the Stormwind Fallacy is fallacious in and of itself; He disallows things based on his perceived notion of the Complete series and anything that follows it being totally broken cheese.

As for Bladeweave, I don't know where that's from, so it would probably not be allowed. Particularly if it's anything like Wraithstrike, which would also not be allowed. I'll have to poke at the Daggerspell Mage, though... and I'll have to speak to my DM about the substitution, because that works perfectly, and doesn't have the weird side effect of my character being perfectly capable of mass-murdering his mother's kin. Although I can't imagine Drow and regular Elves being that different, anatomically, and his Favored Enemy would be flavored as "Extensive training in best ways to damage them", rather than "Raw hatred damage".