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View Full Version : Oh Lord! Things went wrong...



Cedrass
2009-05-16, 09:58 AM
Yeah.... So, I started a campaign with a friend of mine and we decided to co-DM it, it's easier to roll things int he background, we can play multiple NPCs at the same time, etc.

But, last session wasn't all that good :smallannoyed:. The players got way further than we thought, so we weren't ready, but thought we might as well continue since they had fun (One of the guy had an avatar of Tempus cast his Atonement for him, good times)

Well I guess I should explain to you guys what was the initial plan (the story we wanted):

Basically, there's 2 BBEG, one of them is a Lich who once was a Human Paragon/Wizard/Master Specialist (ench) who worked for some King, and got ditched by him, his wife and kids got killed, and he decided he'd have is vengeance. So now he's looking to create a ritual to cast a curse on a whole country that would kill kids older than 12 years old (or the equivalent for longer life span). That way parents get attached to their kids, and they end up loosing them.

However, some other BBEG is actually a Drow Sorcerer having made a pact with Graatz that basically consist of creating a permanent portal, that can't be shut down by mortal magic so Graatz can freely travel between planes, and of course destroy the Material Plane (What else? :smallwink:). The Drow discovered a way to do this, but needs one special half-devil kid to create the portal, if that kid dies, he probably won't ever find an other suitable kid. So you can see they pretty much oppose each other, but the Drow isn't strong enough for the Lich (duh).

So yeah, with that, I wanted the PCs to learn of the Lich and decide to help the Drow. We all agreed on a good-aligned campaign, and saving all the children of the country well, I thought PC wouldn't give it a thought and help. They didn't. I pretty much had to promise them money and items for them to accept. It's not that I think this is bad, but I wanted the PCs to get involved in the campaign, I wanted them to be angry at the BBEGs, especially when they will learn the Drow is a doublecrosser. I want them to feel bad if the Drow ever manages to create that portal. I want them to be "Hey, is that really the right thing to do?" and just not accept any quest from any NPC...

But I fear they just don't care at this stage, they met the Drow and he asked them to go and gather a magical component for a Divination ritual that would pass trough the defenses set up by the Lich, the Drow wants to know where he is. They did, which is ok, but he had to promise money and items, and this is the part I don't like. I guess I can work out something from there, but I mustn't have DMed enough cause I don't really see how I can get them involved...

I know there are a lot of experienced DMs on this board, which is why I'm asking this here. I think my friend and I built a pretty solid world, and I'd hate to see all this blow to bits cause of some mistake we did. I'm guessing it's because we went too fast, and the mood wasn't really set up, or maybe making the main quest giver a Drow was a bad move, hell maybe I just ruined it when they actually talked to the Drow and the way I talked/acted got them suspicious, I don't know...

So basically, what do you guys to to engage your players in a campaign world and/o what would you do in my shoes?

Glyde
2009-05-16, 10:09 AM
They don't want to get involved in the quest? So be it. The BBEG wins, and the characters are killed in a world-shattering cataclysmic event. That's always interesting.


On a more serious note, don't try to force them to do stuff. If they really don't want to take part, then that's fine - Improvise something that involves them. Maybe a family member of one the PCs is taken or somesuch. Also, if their inaction gets really bad, actually have Team Evil win, but not in the above described apocalypse. Instead, have time pass and then either continue with the old characters or create new characters in the new world that the BBEG created with their victory. Instead of destroying the material plane, how about enslaving it?

Acrux
2009-05-16, 10:15 AM
Well, it sounds like you've created a very interesting and (as far as I know) original campaign world. I really like the idea.

Unfortunately, I see lots of phrases like "I wanted the players to..", "I was hoping they would...". That's a classic railroading scenario, which sounds like it doesn't work well with your players. I'd suggest opening up some more hooks, or finding out what motivates them and update/improvise the campaign around those things.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-16, 11:16 AM
It takes 12 years to get attached to your child? Holy s-

I don't see a hook anywhere in your explanation. "There's a bad guy! You have nothing to do with anything! Go and save the world!" Yeah, no. You claim you want them to be involved - where are they involved in that? You need to tie them to people and places through connections and in-game roleplay and events. All the backgrounds in the world won't replace things that happen during play, together, to the whole group.

I also don't see where the villains are particularly gripping. Murdering the children - that's as old as the Bible. (And cutting it at X age sounds decidedly like a Star Trek episode, and Children of the Corn, and so on...)

And trying to force the PCs into helping one villain against another is really tricky; I don't see the motivation there, either. You're just declaring, apropos of nothing, that this evil wizard is the only one who can help? Right.

If you're not going to motivate them with loot and experience points, you have to motivate them with something. Being asked to do X is not even close to a motivation.

Your whole problem, essentially, is that you created an incredibly narrow plot that requires the PCs to do just what you planned. That's what we call railroading, and it's bad for two reasons:
1. It's bad for the players because it sucks to have your decisions and wishes negated by the plot.
2. It's bad for the gamemaster because it never works. The PCs will always go off the rails.

You need to create NPCs, locations, plots, events, and the like, and then come up with hooks that will actually get the PCs involved. You have to provide motivation. Players don't hate villains who do things to faceless, meaningless NPCs; they hate villains who steal one of their fifty +1 daggers more than villains who murder a hundred innocents. You need to make it personal, either directly or through ties you've established between the world and the PCs (and that the players have made their own) during play.

evisiron
2009-05-16, 11:25 AM
My advice: Don't worry about it too much.

The 'mistake' was having to promise items and money to get them to do an action, right? Well, that seems perfectly logical. Anyone thinking forward is likely to barter a reward for an action they will likely attempt anyway. Few things are worse then "Well done on saving all our lives! Now, leave, I have a feast to get to! What? Payment? Isn't saving the world its own reward? Ho ho ho!"

You get the idea.

Anyway, from here, you still have a chance to make the the players hate the BBEGs. Less subtle ways include:
-Hit men from BBEG, such as assassins. Make it clear who sent them. If you really want to generate some hatred, it could hired thieves stealing their stuff to weaken them, prevent from BBEG. Once again MAKE SURE IT IS CLEAR THAT BBEG SENT THE THIEVES. By all means, give the players a chance to get their stuff back, but make it clear that BBEG is trying to screw them over.
-In same vein, when the BBEG Drow does the double cross, some impact may be added if there was a planned way to stop the characters from interfering with his plans after solving the problem with BBEG 1. E.g. sealing them in that place, poisons, some kind of murder attempt.
-Push the emotional side - introduce players to helpful kids who will die is curse kicks in.

Hope that helps. :smallbiggrin:

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-16, 11:41 AM
To draw examples from literature...

- Lord of the Rings: Frodo got the ring from his beloved uncle and surrogate father, Bilbo. The Black Riders are searching for it, putting not only Frodo but all of Hobbitton, his home, in danger if he stays. That's personal.
- Belgariad: Garion is almost murdered by agents of the villain. That's personal.
- Song of Ice and Fire: ... er, okay, most characters' motivations are so complicated and tied in history that no RPG campaign is likely to achieve that level of world involvement, and none will have it at the outset. But it's all very much personal and pulling on the ties the characters have to the world. To take some simple examples, Catelyn Stark leaves home because his son is almost murdered. Ned Stark leaves home because his beloved brother-in-arms and now king commands his help.

There's a pattern, and it's no surprise: you need to start with a bang. The best hook is action, and something that ties to the villain. In the simplest form - which you can start modifying once you've used it a few times - the PCs are attacked, for whatever reason, by the villain's allies or minions, which thrust them into the middle of things and gives them a personal motivation. Even the most selfish Chaotic Evil bastard will want to figure out who tried to kill him, and kill them back.

Cedrass
2009-05-16, 11:42 AM
It takes 12 years to get attached to your child? Holy s-

I don't see a hook anywhere in your explanation. "There's a bad guy! You have nothing to do with anything! Go and save the world!" Yeah, no. You claim you want them to be involved - where are they involved in that? You need to tie them to people and places through connections and in-game roleplay and events. All the backgrounds in the world won't replace things that happen during play, together, to the whole group.


It doesn't take 12 years to get attached, but the more time spent with then, the more it hurts when you lose them.

As for the hook, well I dunno, I thought the PCs would think "Hey, if the kids die, my family too will". They didn't...


Your whole problem, essentially, is that you created an incredibly narrow plot that requires the PCs to do just what you planned. That's what we call railroading, and it's bad for two reasons:
1. It's bad for the players because it sucks to have your decisions and wishes negated by the plot.
2. It's bad for the gamemaster because it never works. The PCs will always go off the rails.

Yeah I know what Railroading is, and that is why I'm stuck with the problem I have now, I didn't push anything on them. They almost left the Drow to let him deal with the problem himself (event after he offered some magic items, or rather, after they asked for them and he agreed). It's one of the PCs that talked with the others, saying he may be a f***ing Drow, but what he's doing is good as far as they know, so maybe they should help. If he didn't, I wouldn't have done anything to prevent them from running away from that "plot hook".


You need to create NPCs, locations, plots, events, and the like, and then come up with hooks that will actually get the PCs involved. You have to provide motivation. Players don't hate villains who do things to faceless, meaningless NPCs; they hate villains who steal one of their fifty +1 daggers more than villains who murder a hundred innocents. You need to make it personal, either directly or through ties you've established between the world and the PCs (and that the players have made their own) during play.

That is really something I didn't think about. I wanted to make the Lich mysterious and all, by them not seing him directly, but your assassin idea is great. Or, really, something to give a "face" to the BBEG.

I guess I'll also have to put in more NPCs that the PCs can interact with and have a relationship to them. It's something I forget...


Anyway, from here, you still have a chance to make the the players hate the BBEGs. Less subtle ways include:
-Hit men from BBEG, such as assassins. Make it clear who sent them. If you really want to generate some hatred, it could hired thieves stealing their stuff to weaken them, prevent from BBEG. Once again MAKE SURE IT IS CLEAR THAT BBEG SENT THE THIEVES. By all means, give the players a chance to get their stuff back, but make it clear that BBEG is trying to screw them over.
-In same vein, when the BBEG Drow does the double cross, some impact may be added if there was a planned way to stop the characters from interfering with his plans after solving the problem with BBEG 1. E.g. sealing them in that place, poisons, some kind of murder attempt.
-Push the emotional side - introduce players to helpful kids who will die is curse kicks in.

I like the "sealing the PCs" thing. I saw the thread about one guy making the PCs interact in the dreams of a demon, I think I might just mix a bit of his idea to this story. And I also need to remember (as you said on point 3) to put kids! To make they realize what's happening.

Oh and thanks Acrux! I'm glad I thought about something original (in parts at least :smallsmile:).

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-16, 12:01 PM
As for the hook, well I dunno, I thought the PCs would think "Hey, if the kids die, my family too will". They didn't...

Did you establish that they had families, and specifically ones involving kids? Even if you did, did you do this in-game? Did they have any reason to care? NPCs are generally zero emotional impact no matter what you say their relationship is - unless the players have actually become attached to them, in-game. (Alternatively, if a player writes ten pages about the character's family, you can probably assume they're attached to the characters.)


Yeah I know what Railroading is, and that is why I'm stuck with the problem I have now, I didn't push anything on them. They almost left the Drow to let him deal with the problem himself (event after he offered some magic items, or rather, after they asked for them and he agreed). It's one of the PCs that talked with the others, saying he may be a f***ing Drow, but what he's doing is good as far as they know, so maybe they should help. If he didn't, I wouldn't have done anything to prevent them from running away from that "plot hook".

It sounds like you only knew that railroading is something to avoid. That's a start, but the point of "railroading is bad" is "Make them want to do it!" It's not easy, and it usually takes time to learn (many GMs never do) - but it's really useful.


That is really something I didn't think about. I wanted to make the Lich mysterious and all, by them not seing him directly, but your assassin idea is great. Or, really, something to give a "face" to the BBEG.

They don't have to learn the identity or nature of the villain until the very final stretch of the campaign; in fact, the usual method is for PCs to work their way from villain to villain, up the chain of command, getting ever closer to the real mastermind.


I guess I'll also have to put in more NPCs that the PCs can interact with and have a relationship to them. It's something I forget...

Having NPCs players have actually grown to like (and hate!) in the game is really important for immersion and for tying them to the world. It cannot be over-emphasized.

Generally, stealing things from the PCs is the best way to tick them off; killing and trying to kill them is the next best; screwing with their own plans is third; and messing with their favorite NPCs the fourth best.

For making players like NPCs... well, a general inoffensiveness is usually necessary (the average player will kill an NPC for whistling an annoying tune). Doing things for the PCs is good. Tagging along and being occasionally helpful is good. Being a source of some kind of long-term benefit is great. Just generally being a detailed, involving, but not spotlight-hogging character over a long period of time is the best.