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View Full Version : Because...I live. [Survivor Base Class, 3.5]



Stormthorn
2009-05-17, 09:44 PM
A class designed on not dying in exchange for not being very good at killing things. Please comment. This is the opposite to a class im currently working on that focuses on damage.

Survivor
Hit Dice: D12
Class Skills: Intimidate, Sense Motive, Jump, Swim, Ride, Climb, Escape Artist, Spot, Listen, Craft, Profession, Concentration
Skill Points at 1st Level
(4 + Int modifier) 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level
4 + Int modifier.
Proficiant: In light and medium armor, and all simple weapons.

Survivor
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+2|Endurance, Disease Immunity, Spell Resistance, Survival Tree

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+3|Die Hard, Accelerated Healing

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Trap Sense +1, Defensive Knowledge +1, Fatigue Immunity

4th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+4|Damage Reduction 2/-, Evasion

5th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+4|Toxin Immunity

6th|
+4|
+5|
+5|
+5|Trap Sense +2, Lifeforce

7th|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+5|Damage Reduction 4/-

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+6|Lifeforce, Sleepless

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+6|Trap Sense +3, Defensive Knowledge +2

10th|
+7/+2|
+7|
+7|
+7|Damage Reduction 6/-, Lifeforce, Strong Lungs

11th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+7|
+7|Second Chance

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+8|
+8|Trap Sense +4, Lifeforce

13th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+8|
+8|Damage Reduction 8/-, Fearless

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+9|Strong Soul, Lifeforce

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+9|
+9|Trap Sense +5, Defensive Knowledge +3, Fast Healing 1

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+10|Damage Reduction 10/-, Lifeforce

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+10|Timeless Body, Improved Evasion

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+11|Trap Sense +6, Lifeforce

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|Damage Reduction 12/-, Drain Resistance

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+12|Lifeforce, Perpetuality[/table]

Survival Tree: This is a seperate set of abilities that also advances as the Survivor levels up. It consists of his active abilities. Gorgondantess wrote this and i have seperated his words into the spoiler tag. Now you can use this class in combat.

1: Will to Survive: when the Survivor drops below 1/2 of his max hp, he gains +6 to strength, +4 to constitution and a +1 deflection bonus to AC for a number of rounds equal to his constitution+charisma modifiers. This is usable as a free action 1/day.
2:Will to Protect: As a full-round action,the survivor can cause all negative effects directed at anyone within 10-30' (his choice) to effect him instead, after going through things like DR and SR. This lasts for one round, and is usable 3+charisma modifier times/day.
4: Will to survive 2/day
6: Need to Protect: As a full-round action, the Survivor can cause any negative effect of his choice directed at anyone within 5-50' (his choice) to effect him instead. This ability replaces Will to Protect, and lasts for one round, usable 3+charisma modifier+constitution modifier times/day.
8: Need to survive 3/day: When the Survivor drops below 1/2 of his max hp, he gains +8 to strength, +6 to constitution, +2 to dexterity, a deflection bonus to AC equal to his charisma modifier, and fast healing 1 (this stacks with other fast healing.) This lasts a number of rounds equal to his charisma modifier+constitution modifier+3, and replaces Will to Survive.
10: Need to Protect now lasts a number of rounds equal to the Survivor's charisma modifier.
12: Need to Survive 4/day.
14: Greater Need to Survive: Need to survive now gives a +4 bonus to dexterity, a +2 bonus to charisma, and fast healing 2.
16: Anything to Protect: as Need to Protect, but activated as a standard action, lasts 3+charisma modifier rounds, and up to a range of 100'
18:Need to Survive 5/day
20: Anything to Survive: When the Survivor drops below 1/2 hp, he gains +12 strength, +12 constitution, +6 dexterity, +6 charisma, fast healing 10, immunity to fire, cold, electric, and acid, his attacks deal force damage, gains a deflection bonus to AC equal to twice his new charisma modifier, and is under a haste effect. This lasts a number of rounds equal to twice his charisma+constitution modifier.


Endurance: At first level a Survivor gets the benefits of the Endurance Feat.

Spell Resistance (Ex): A Survivor has a spell resistance equal to his level + cha bonus + constitution bonus

Disease Immunity (Ex): A Survivor is immune to all diseases, even magicla ones.

Diehard: At second Level a Survivor gets the benefit of the Diehard feat.

Accelerated Healing (Ex): A level 2 survivor heals twice the standard amount during natural healing.

Fatigue Immunity (Ex): At level 3 a Survivor cannot be fatigued or exhausted.

Defensive Knowledge (Ex): At levels 3, 9, and 15 a Survivor recieves a +2 competance bonus to her AC.

Trap Sense (Ex): As the Rogue and Barbarian Ability

Damage Reduction (Ex): A survivor has damage reduction as listed

Evasion (Ex): As Rogue ability

Toxin Immunity (Ex): A level 5 Survivor is immune to all forms of poison, even magical ones.

Lifeforce (Ex): At level six and every even level after a Survivor gains an additional 3 hitpoints.

Sleepless (Ex): At level 8 a Survivor is so dedicated to experiancing every moment of life that he no longer needs to sleep and is immune to sleep effects.

Strong Lungs (Ex): A level 10 Survivor can hold her breath for three times as long as normal before becoming in danger of drowning.

Second Chance (Ex): Once per day an 11th level survivor may re-roll a single saving throw after the roll is made.

Fearless (Ex): At level 13 a Survivor is immune to Fear effects and negetive moral.

Strong Soul (Ex): At level 14 a Survivor is immune to Death Effects.

Fast Healing (Ex): Fast Healing for the given amount.

Improved Evasion (Ex): At level 17 a Survivor gains the benefits of improved evasion.

Timeless Body (Ex): As the Monk and Druid ability.

Drain Resistance (Ex): A level 19 Survivor has a 50% chance to ignore any ability drain or damage and any level drain effect.

Perpetuality (Ex): A level 20 Survivor has her maximum age doubled. In addition, she is immune to all slow and hold effects. She is also considered Lightly Fortified (25% chance to ignore critical hits) and has 5 points of resistance to all standard types of energy (fire, cold, acid, sonic, electricity).

Flickerdart
2009-05-17, 09:51 PM
It's a little bit on the weak side, seeing as how D&D is mostly about killing things in some way or another, or at least overcoming challenges, and this class can't really. I suggest giving it a list of spells similar to the way Beguilers and Warmages work: spells that help with survival, such as healing, Rope Trick, Death Ward and such. As it stands, this character cannot meaningfully contribute to a party, even one composed of Melee brutes exclusively.

Stormthorn
2009-05-17, 09:55 PM
But it CAN contribute to the adventure. Send it first into each room to "check" for traps. If things go bad get him to carry party members out. Use him to tank stuff.

Of course, this class was designed that it would work as a great addition to other classes. Make your sorcerer much less squishy!

I didnt make it a prestige clas because i fele that ten levels is too limiting and i didnt want people to have to wait until level 6.

But...i suppose perhaps giving it the Ranger spell progression might work. Or upping its BAB to that 3/4th level deal.

chiasaur11
2009-05-17, 09:58 PM
So, this class is a t-t-t-t-t-tough guy, halo round the head too tough to die?

Less Ramones referency, in my quick glance over I didn't see many defenses against death due to massive damage. Probably due to me not paying much attention, but if it genuinely isn't there, might be worth considering.

Also: what Flickerdart said.

Flickerdart
2009-05-17, 09:59 PM
Traps can be bypassed by a handful of spells or a Rogue/Beguiler/Factotum/Scout that can also contribute in meaningful ways. Tanking doesn't work that way - enemies have no reason to attack him over the squishy caster, because he can't really keep their interest. They can ignore him at no consequence to their person.

Part of the reason the Monk is so maligned is that it can't do anything it was intended to be able to do. The problem is similar here: it's not really effective at staying alive much better than anything else at its level, and it can't do anything else.

Stormthorn
2009-05-17, 10:32 PM
But i always liked monks. They are tough and get a buttload of attacks with the same BaB of a rogue. And they can move liek the wind and have a set of weapons that get better as they level up that they cant ever lose.

But i always felt that nothing in the game was tough ENOUGH without abusing prestige classes (of which their are 50,000 but i only know the rules for about a dozen) asi have seen people do with their crazy "i can do 246,582 average damage in one round at level 15" builds.

The_JJ
2009-05-17, 10:38 PM
I think it looks good. You picked a concept and made it work. If ability to compare to other classes in arbitrary situations was all that mattered we'd all play wizards. :smallyuk:

Sorry if I come across as confrontational, Flickerdart. Just a general pet peeve I have with some of the people on this forum.

For some reason if certain numbers don't add up then you're doing it wrong! To me, if you can't play the concept you want to then, well, you're doing it wrong. His concept is take damage, not dish it out. It does that. End o' problem. :smalltongue:

Lappy9000
2009-05-17, 10:54 PM
His concept is take damage, not dish it out. It does that.Sadly, the very concept is a weak one in Dungeons and Dragons. The game is formed of a team dynamic, and a guy who can only look out for himself does little to aid the party.

Normally, a party needs its members to deal damage, be skilled, incapacitate enemies, heal/buff allies, or control the battlefield.

Partly for the above reasons, the class is pretty weak as it currently stands. I'd suggest making the survivor able to outlast any threat that can be dished out to him or his allies. A few suggestions:
Endure Elements-esque abilities?
Some non-magical buffing mechanic (or magical, but that doesn't seem to be the aim of the class)
Being able to take damage in place of another character.

Gorgondantess
2009-05-17, 10:56 PM
I like it, but it really strikes me as rather bland, and also weak. At the minimum, I'd give it a lot more skillpoints, and 3/4 BAB, and martial and heavy armor proficiencies, or some decent spellcasting, a la duskblade or bard. It has potential, but as of now, it just doesn't look very fun to play- it can't do anything. Or at least, it can't do anything a barbarian can't do just as well, aside from taking hits. I'll be keeping an eye on the thread because I love the idea, but it really needs a lot of work.
Also, I'd give it energy resistance; it couldn't survive some serious blasting by a powerful mage as is, much more than any other class at least.

Flickerdart
2009-05-17, 10:59 PM
This isn't weak compared to Wizards only. It's weak compared to Truenamers. At least they can optimize and get their Truenaming checks enough to make a bit of difference. It has no way of damaging an opponent, thus it will lose every battle it gets into. It can't even help the party in all but a few contrived situations.

Giving it a handful of spells or SLAs won't hurt it. Even a Timeless Body 1/day psi-like won't break it (maybe make it usable character level times per day, broken up as you'd like) and would actually give it some nice flavour where the guy is literally immune to everything you throw at him.

Some SLAs that would also help are things that deflect stuff outright. Spells like Mage Armour or Shield. Wind Wall. This class just doesn't get enough to compete with even Healers. Fast Healing 1? You can buy that on an item. Improved Evasion at 17th? Yawn. +3 AC? Costs a tiiiiny fraction of WBL. DR 6/- won't make anything blink by 18th.

The problem is, the class doesn't get anything unique or anything useful early enough. I'm not bashing it just cause it can't kill things. But it can't even survive properly.

The_JJ
2009-05-17, 11:03 PM
Sadly, the very concept is a weak one in Dungeons and Dragons. The game is formed of a team dynamic, and a guy who can only look out for himself does little to aid the party.

Normally, a party needs its members to deal damage, be skilled, incapacitate enemies, heal/buff allies, or control the battlefield.



Now that? Legitimate concern.

Stormthorn
2009-05-17, 11:27 PM
This isn't weak compared to Wizards only. It's weak compared to Truenamers. At least they can optimize and get their Truenaming checks enough to make a bit of difference. It has no way of damaging an opponent, thus it will lose every battle it gets into. It can't even help the party in all but a few contrived situations.

Giving it a handful of spells or SLAs won't hurt it. Even a Timeless Body 1/day psi-like won't break it (maybe make it usable character level times per day, broken up as you'd like) and would actually give it some nice flavour where the guy is literally immune to everything you throw at him.

Some SLAs that would also help are things that deflect stuff outright. Spells like Mage Armour or Shield. Wind Wall. This class just doesn't get enough to compete with even Healers. Fast Healing 1? You can buy that on an item. Improved Evasion at 17th? Yawn. +3 AC? Costs a tiiiiny fraction of WBL. DR 6/- won't make anything blink by 18th.

The problem is, the class doesn't get anything unique or anything useful early enough. I'm not bashing it just cause it can't kill things. But it can't even survive properly.

I would listen to your valid complaints. but now your getting offensive.

I do the best i can. You should know my only resources are the SRD, and Forgotten Realms Campaign Book.

If you want to see damage and something "unique" then check out the Liquidator class im posting (i told you, i was making two opposite classes).

But because you asked complained annoyed me enough, i will beef up some of this classes stuff. And i suppose your complains have some merit.

Edit: The clas now has a berserk type ability available from level 1 and had double damage reduction in addition to a few other things. Its like part barbarian, part monk and part steel anvil. I really dont want to give it spells because that breaks with the "feel" of the class. Its not something a min/maxer would understand.

Lappy9000
2009-05-17, 11:39 PM
I would listen to your valid complaints. but now your getting offensive.

I do the best i can. You should know my only resources are the SRD, and Forgotten Realms Campaign Book.

If you want to see damage and something "unique" then check out the Liquidator class im posting (i told you, i was making two opposite classes).

But because you asked complained annoyed me enough, i will beef up some of this classes stuff.Well, the class could use revamping. I wouldn't be so hasty to dismiss Flickerdart's comments as offensive, I doubt he meant any harm. Besides, if you insinuate that you only fix a class if you're annoyed enough, noone is ever gonna want to post :smallwink:

Back to critique! I'm going to continue preaching the glories of d20r (Hey, at least I'm honest!) and suggest giving the Dreadnaught (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99504) a looksie. Juggernaut would have been an equally appropriate title, since there's not much that can stop the class in it's tracks.

Maybe also look at the Devoted Defender from the old 3.0 Sword and Fist guidebook? Basically, the class can throw themselves in harm's way to take damage for a charge (chosen in a similar manner to the Dodge feat), as well as Deflect Arrows (Snatch Arrows would be cool to add in, too), and the ability to completely block attacks if they make a saving throw (It's Reflex in the Prestige Class, but I'd advise using all three saves which vary depending on the attack).

Gorgondantess
2009-05-17, 11:41 PM
The clas now has a berserk type ability available from level 1 and had double damage reduction in addition to a few other things. Its like part barbarian, part monk and part steel anvil.

...Still strikes me as a bit bland, honestly. What's the point in getting bonus damage if you can't really hit anything with such bad BAB? Not a problem at early levels, but it definitely would be late game. I still like the concept, but I still wouldn't play it.
I would advise giving it some cool tricks- something that sets it apart, makes it unique, even if it's just some SLAs.:smallsmile:

Stormthorn
2009-05-17, 11:44 PM
He emoted a yawn as he was posting! Thats pretty clearly a slight on my work.

But yea, as my edit above mentions he is stronger now.

And i dont roll like the min/maxers but their isnt anything inherently wrong with them. I just wanted to add that disclaimer. I mostly brew classes from RP-based ideas or a character that pops into my head. In this case i was thinking of some sort of meek little traveling lightning rod salesman with the powers of that guy from Unbreakable.


And what do you mean it cant hit anything?! With its current setup it can go for 20+ rounds in a row for four fights a day with a +30 BaB. Without any equipment or buffs. That puts him higher than the fighter.

Edit:

I would advise giving it some cool tricks
The ability to overcome aging, disease, poison, fear, sleep, fatigue, suffocation, death effects, level drain, and movement hindering abilities all from sheer force of will isnt cool in your book?
EDIT Edit: ...and critical hits, magic, and elemental damage. (i forgot those.)

Gorgondantess
2009-05-17, 11:56 PM
The ability to overcome aging, disease, poison, fear, sleep, fatigue, suffocation, death effects, level drain, and movement hindering abilities all from sheer force of will isnt cool in your book?
EDIT Edit: ...and critical hits, magic, and elemental damage. (i forgot those.)

Yes, actually, those aren't cool, in my humble opinion.
Now, I'm not trying to insult you in any way, shape or form, I'm just being honest- the only reason I'm posting is because I care, and the class has SO MUCH potential.
While he has innate, passive abilities, he can't actually do much. Actively, I mean. It doesn't look like a fun class to play.
"Haha, you can't hurt me!"- that just about cuts it. He can't hurt back, he can barely hinder, he's just there and very, very difficult to remove/impede/destroy. Anyhow, if that doesn't convince you to change some things, I'll just take my leave and called it a failed effort.:smallfrown:

Stormthorn
2009-05-18, 12:10 AM
Yes, actually, those aren't cool, in my humble opinion.
Now, I'm not trying to insult you in any way, shape or form, I'm just being honest- the only reason I'm posting is because I care, and the class has SO MUCH potential.
While he has innate, passive abilities, he can't actually do much. Actively, I mean. It doesn't look like a fun class to play.
"Haha, you can't hurt me!"- that just about cuts it. He can't hurt back, he can barely hinder, he's just there and very, very difficult to remove/impede/destroy. Anyhow, if that doesn't convince you to change some things, I'll just take my leave and called it a failed effort.:smallfrown:

The Anything to Survive ability raises his BaB above a fighter of equal level. So its not a waste as the thing can now do real combat.

"Haha, you cant hurt me!" is in my opinion one of the simplest and coolest sorts of super-humaness. What good is being able to shoot lightning when someone could stab you in your sleep, assuming you dont die of cancer or something.

Actualy...damn...when i take a look at this part of me is in this class. Wish fulfullment because im handicapped. I suppose that might blind me.
Tell you what...you suggest something specific and i will put it in. One thing for now, and you have to write the wording and tell me what level he gets it. Im sure you can do better than me since my experiance and resources are so limited. Sound ok?

Gorgondantess
2009-05-18, 12:13 AM
The Anything to Survive ability raises his BaB above a fighter of equal level. So its not a waste as the thing can now do real combat.

"Haha, you cant hurt me!" is in my opinion one of the simplest and coolest sorts of super-humaness. What good is being able to shoot lightning when someone could stab you in your sleep, assuming you dont die of cancer or something.

Actualy...damn...when i take a look at this part of me is in this class. Wish fulfullment because im handicapped. I suppose that might blind me.
Tell you what...you suggest something specific and i will put it in. One thing for now, and you have to write the wording and tell me what level he gets it. Im sure you can do better than me since my experiance and resources are so limited. Sound ok?

Awright, I say give him spellcasting progression. I'll work on a spell list and spells/level and PM it to you.

Satyr
2009-05-18, 01:39 AM
On its own, the class seem to be a bit weak In a gestalt game, it would be awesome. And for this reason, I am so going to steal this one.

Haven
2009-05-18, 02:42 AM
On its own, the class seem to be a bit weak In a gestalt game, it would be awesome. And for this reason, I am so going to steal this one.

I had the same thought.

It is also ridiculously good as a one-level dip. +2 to all saves, d12 HP, spell resistance, and a nifty little rage ability? Yes please. I would definitely dip into this class as a Paladin.

But, yeah, I can't help but notice there's nothing to do in this class. Well, they can become a really good fighter for a few rounds once per day--twice when they hit tenth level--but that seems to be about it.

Flickerdart
2009-05-18, 05:55 AM
You should probably put the action that it takes to trigger Anything to Survive. Seems like you intend it to be a free action, able to be triggered, like Nerveskitter, before initiative is rolled.


He emoted a yawn as he was posting! Thats pretty clearly a slight on my work.
I was specifically referring to getting that ability too late in the game for it to make a difference. Should probably also give him Mettle at 5th or something.

I do resent being called a min-maxer though, for suggesting to give the class something that it can do besides stand there.

Kornaki
2009-05-18, 09:59 AM
Here's a more creative way to cheat death:

Near Death Experience: Your brushes with death have given you ample experience with your soul leaving your body. If you die, make a fortitude save equal to ten plus how far below zero your hit points are (so if you take damage to go to -12, you have to make a fortitude save of 22). If successful, your soul manifests itself as a ghost for one round per class level. At the end of this effect, it returns to your body, which is stabilized at -9 hit points

Calmness
2009-05-18, 10:39 AM
I like it, and think it's fine as it is, you just have to get creative while playing it. Still, if you want to make it more useful for a party you can give it Trapfinding and some bonuses to Spot and Listen, then it'd make a pretty good scout, maybe even give it Hide in Plain Sight as well.

Stormthorn
2009-05-18, 11:21 AM
Here's a more creative way to cheat death:

Near Death Experience: Your brushes with death have given you ample experience with your soul leaving your body. If you die, make a fortitude save equal to ten plus how far below zero your hit points are (so if you take damage to go to -12, you have to make a fortitude save of 22). If successful, your soul manifests itself as a ghost for one round per class level. At the end of this effect, it returns to your body, which is stabilized at -9 hit points

That is interesting. But its yet another passive ability, which im being criticised for the abundance of.

Ya know, fighters dont get any abilities!

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-05-18, 11:25 AM
Two things would move this class from "can't do much actively" to "awesome" in my opinion:

1) The ability to transfer some of the benefits to an ally temporarily. Suddenly, an enemy isn't thinking "Gee, he can't hurt me; I'll ignore him," but rather "Oh, crap, he's making the fighter impossible to take down! Now do I go for the fighter, or take him out and make the fighter easier..." That will make him a good tank, since enemies would have a reason to take him out--not because he's hurting them, but because he's making everyone else too hard to take down.

2) The ability to turn attacks back on attackers. You cast a spell at him? If you don't penetrate his SR, it reflects back at you. You swing a sword at him? Whatever doesn't get through his DR heads back at you. And gods forbid you launch a finger of death at him!

Dienekes
2009-05-18, 11:32 AM
Interesting but agreeably a bit useless in a party situation.

Wouldn't it be easy to simply add a mechanic that makes opponents attack it instead of other classes? The whole point of the class is to get hit, but any halfway intelligent monster would laugh, walk around it, and eat the wizard. So simply add some x per day ability to make opponents make a will save or they most attack the survivor.

Kornaki
2009-05-18, 11:36 AM
They get feats, which are the same thing.


It is passive to start, but the point is that it's not simply an immunity, it's something you have to get to do stuff with when it comes about. Also, the ability to simply avoid dying is pretty huge, whereas being immune to poisons is a lot more situational, and not nearly as fun to use when it comes about. I don't think an ability that needs a certain situation to trigger it is a bad thing, it just needs to be really effective when that situation comes about.

Stormthorn
2009-05-18, 11:36 AM
I had the same thought.

It is also ridiculously good as a one-level dip. +2 to all saves, d12 HP, spell resistance, and a nifty little rage ability? Yes please. I would definitely dip into this class as a Paladin.

But, yeah, I can't help but notice there's nothing to do in this class. Well, they can become a really good fighter for a few rounds once per day--twice when they hit tenth level--but that seems to be about it.

Im a big fan of giving nice bonuses at level 1, since you cant do much as a level 1 character.

Im debating lowering the bonuses of Anything to Survive in exchange for making it work more often.

Baron Corm
2009-05-18, 02:51 PM
The reason people find your class boring is that you have actually created a total of two unique class features: the rage thing and the capstone. The capstone is not relevant to the class from levels 1-19, so I would say you have a total of 1 class feature. Try dropping everything else, and making some unique mechanics.

Stormthorn
2009-05-18, 06:15 PM
The reason people find your class boring is that you have actually created a total of two unique class features: the rage thing and the capstone. The capstone is not relevant to the class from levels 1-19, so I would say you have a total of 1 class feature. Try dropping everything else, and making some unique mechanics.

Who needs unique mechanics? Certainly not the people who make DnD

Monsters have a fairly small pool of powers that many of them share. How many creatures have poison?
Classes too.
Monks and Druids share a few abilities. Rogues and Assassins share a lot of abilities. Druids and Rangers share abilities. Sorcerers and Wizards share spellcasting ability.
Fighters have no abilities whatsoever.
The fact that the powers arnt new doesnt make him useless as this is a unique combination of the said abilities. And i just listed some precident*.

I dont want to have to be a paladin/monk/druid with a whole buttload of expensive items if a single class can do it. Elegance and simplicity.

Plus it would be impossible to give him resistance to ANYTHING if i didnt use somehting another being has. Every resistance already exists.

To rpove my point i opened two class pages at random from the From The Playground thread on this board. They where Wonderer and Socialite. Then i opened Witch and Peasant Warrior. None of those had anything particularly unique. I then opened the Red Mage class and read it until i finaly found something unique.
So, after looking in five class pages the first unique thing i found was this:

Knowledge (decorative cake frosting):

Explain to me again why its bad to not have unique abilities?


*Flyingpoo is well aware that the basic rules of DnD have few unique abilities that are completly unshared between classes. Look here.

I looked through many PrCs, admittedly not all, and decided that they could be mostly represented by existing abilities.
So i would think that he would realize that two unique abilities and a handful of rare ones (no SRD class that i know of offers re-rolls) is rather a lot.

Khatoblepas
2009-05-18, 07:19 PM
Completely my own opinion, but:

I think the point is that this class doesn't do anything that other classes can't do better. The abilities are all over the place and are almost completely passive - even if you did play this character, he wouldn't do anything but be immune to things and maybe fight a little. You cite the monk, the fighter, et al as viable, but I'm afraid that those classes have come from an outmoded mechanic (Seperate XP tables, magic being more inconvenient, direct damage being more important) that severely screws with the game. The monk is useless, the fighter is useless, because their contributions have been really made pointless by the overarching game mechanics of 3.5.

BUT

The concept - unconventional as it is - is sound. But you're trying to shoehorn a character concept into a class concept. One can be a survivor trying to reach complete highlander-style immortality, but that's a character goal, not a class goal. A class is your skillset. I could understand this in an early-entry prestige class, but I don't think this is something that many adventurers would take, because it's too specific.

The Crusader, for instance, from the Tome of Battle, can epitomise the Survivor. It even gets a stance (an at-will, continuous effect thing) that makes them practically immune to hit point damage. But that's not the only thing it can do. It can be many things, without being unbalanced or too weak compared to the spellcasters. (The old melee classes are far too weak to compare to the core of the system - the spellcasters). Think - "can this class be replicated enough elsewhere that I don't need a new class?". If you have new mechanics to bring to the table that can model a variety of character concepts, then make that class! If people complain that it's too bland, or boring - it's because it models too few character concepts.

Base classes must be broad in scope, and interesting.

Prestige classes can be narrower in scope, and be worthwhile taking compared to base classes, and also interesting.

If some of the classes WoTC put forward seem to be too narrow also, they probably are. After all, they were discovering the system while we were, too.

Now, what can we do to make this class broader in scope? :3

Zhalath
2009-05-18, 08:32 PM
The ability to overcome aging, disease, poison, fear, sleep, fatigue, suffocation, death effects, level drain, and movement hindering abilities all from sheer force of will isnt cool in your book?
EDIT Edit: ...and critical hits, magic, and elemental damage. (i forgot those.)

I can get 10 out of 13 of those immunities from being undead, which takes the level loss (or whatever it is) for Necropolitan, which makes all your HD d12.
Hey, maybe the class should turn you into undead or construct by the end, because you're practically indestructible by then.

AS a specific suggestion, I'd second this:

2) The ability to turn attacks back on attackers. You cast a spell at him? If you don't penetrate his SR, it reflects back at you. You swing a sword at him? Whatever doesn't get through his DR heads back at you. And gods forbid you launch a finger of death at him!
Now, that is an idea. Something like CMage's Spell Reflection, but more uses, or something. What'd also be cool is being able to absorb damage or spells, and release it, kind of like that one Crusader ability. That encourages you to rush in, suck up a bunch of damage, then pound it out on your enemies.

Stormthorn
2009-05-18, 08:38 PM
The concept - unconventional as it is - is sound. But you're trying to shoehorn a character concept into a class concept. One can be a survivor trying to reach complete highlander-style immortality, but that's a character goal, not a class goal. A class is your skillset. I could understand this in an early-entry prestige class, but I don't think this is something that many adventurers would take, because it's too specific.

Aye, thats the problem i guess.

Later in your post you mention the crusader. Im sure he would do nicely, but as i have pointed out many times on many threads I DONT HAVE BOOKS! This means if i want a specific build then 9 times out of 10 i have ot make my own rules for it.

Hmm...my next concept will be a prestige class so as to overcome these problems. Yes... a party animal type prestige class.

Baron Corm
2009-05-18, 10:23 PM
Unique, interesting, and defining abilities of the examples you gave, ignoring prestige classes because they serve a different purpose:

Monk: Flurry of Blows, unarmed strike, AC bonus, speed bonus, SR

Druid: Wild shape, druid spells

Rogue: Sneak attack, rogue special abilities

Ranger: Favored enemy, combat style

Fighter: More feats than you'll ever need

Sorcerer: Spontaneous casting

Wizard: Huge number of spells known

I'm not saying you need 20 unique abilities. Quite the contrary. One or two unique abilities which remain relevant through levels 1-20 is pretty much what base classes are all about.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't give your class immunity to lots of things, either. After all, a ranger's Combat Style is just a bunch of feats, but they are presented in a unique and interesting way. His favored enemy is just some specific static bonuses, but they are also presented in a unique and interesting way. Flavor helps this, but so do mechanics. These bonuses are only gained under certain conditions, which represent the ranger archetype.

Maybe you should start by fleshing out the class a bit. On the mechanical side, what is the survivor's role in a party? In other words, what does he do with his rounds during combat? And on the flavor side, what is the source of the survivor's powers? Why does he suddenly become immune to things? Thinking about that bit could help you insert some interesting ability mechanics.

Lappy9000
2009-05-18, 11:25 PM
Who needs unique mechanics? Certainly not the people who make DnD.People who play D&D, that's who. I personally would love to play a class that uses a unique mechanic or utilizes established ones in new ways. If that wasn't important, I'd just throw all of the core D&D class abilities into a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet and hit F9 to randomly create new classes.

Also, it would be fantastic if you spruced up the class a little. Bolding class abilities makes it easier to read, finding a kick-awesome picture really helps it together, and actually citing abilities instead of saying "As Rogue Ability" just helps everyone.

I agree that the idea is great, but the class needs work.