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ShadowFighter15
2009-05-18, 06:23 PM
I've gone over a couple of guides on GameFAQs to try and get my head around 2e character creation (I assume BG uses 2nd Editions rules) and while I understand it for the most part, I'm still a bit hazy about dual-classing, namely what happens once you get your original class abilities back.

Eg: If I made a fighter and then at level 3 I decided to dual-class into cleric, I know I'll get my fighter abilities back once I get my 4th level of cleric, but what happens then? From the way I've read it, I'm pretty sure I'd then only be able to progress as a cleric from that point on. Is this right?

Second question is in regards to some of the snarky lines the protagonist gets during the game; are any of them dependant on the protagonist's alignment, or cause alignment shifts?

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-18, 06:36 PM
Now that you've dual-classed into a cleric, that's it. You are now a cleric. You will never again be a fighter. When your cleric level has overtaken your fighter level, you get all the benefits of being a fighter of that level + clericness.

Them's rules:

Only humans can be dual-classed characters. To be dual-classed, the character must have scores of 15 or more in the prime requisites of his first class and scores of 17 or more in the prime requisites of any classes he switches to. The character selects one class to begin his adventuring life. He can advance in this class as many levels as he desires before switching to another class; there is no cut-off point beyond which a character cannot switch. However, he must attain at least 2nd level in his current class before changing to another class. There is no limit to the number of classes a character can acquire, as long as he has the ability scores and wants to make the change. (Certain character classes have alignment restrictions that the character must meet, however.)
Any time after reaching 2nd level, a human character can enter a new character class, provided he has scores of 17 or better in the prime requisites of the new class. After switching to a new class, the character no longer earns experience points in his previous character class and he can no longer advance in level in that class. Nor can he switch back to his first class at a later date, hoping to resume his advancement where he left off. Once he leaves a class he has finished his studies in it. Instead, he starts over in a new class, at 1st level with 0 experience points, but he does retain his previous Hit Dice and hit points. He gains the abilities, and must abide by all of the restrictions, of the new class. He does not gain or lose any points on his ability scores (for example, an 18 Strength wizard who changes to fighter does not gain the percentile Strength bonus, but likewise a fighter changing to a wizard would not lose it). The character uses the combat and saving throw tables appropriate to his new class and level.
This is not to imply that a dual-class human forgets everything he knew before; he still has, at his fingertips, all the knowledge, abilities, and proficiencies of his old class. But if he uses any of his previous class's abilities during an encounter, he earns no experience for that encounter and only half experience for the adventure. The only values that can be carried over from the previous class without restriction are the character's Hit Dice and hit points. The character is penalized for using his old attack or saving throw numbers, weapons or armor that are now prohibited, and any special abilities of the old class that are not also abilities of the new class. (The character is trying to learn new ways to do things; by slipping back to his old methods, he has set back his learning in his new character class.)
In addition, the character earns no additional Hit Dice or hit points while advancing in his new class.
The restrictions in the previous two paragraphs last until the character reaches a higher level in his new class than his maximum level in any of his previous classes. At that point, both restrictions are dropped: the character gains the abilities of his previous classes without jeopardizing his experience points for the adventure, and he earns additional Hit Dice (those of his new class) and hit points for gaining experience levels in his new class.
Once these restrictions are lifted, the character must still abide by the restrictions of whichever class he is using at the moment. A dual-class fighter/mage, for example, cannot cast spells while wearing armor.

Tarus Blood-heart begins his career as a cleric with a Wisdom of 16. He rises to 3rd level and then decides to become a fighter, since his Strength is 17. He keeps his 14 hit points (rolled on 3d8), but in all other ways he is treated as a 1st-level fighter. Upon reaching 4th level, Tarus is allowed to roll 1d10 for additional hit points. He can now cast spells as a 3rd-level cleric and fight as a 4th-level fighter. For the rest of his career, Tarus advances as a fighter but retains his minor clerical powers--a useful advantage when the situation gets ugly!

ShadowFighter15
2009-05-18, 06:55 PM
Thought so; I just wanted to make sure. Seeing all that makes me glad I got into D&D when the current edition was 3.5. If I got into it during 2e, I think I'd only get halfway through the rules before giving up.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-18, 06:59 PM
To be honest, I've only learned 2e recently and it's not much more complicated than 3.5, only that 3.5 is written in a much more accessible manner.

Narkis
2009-05-18, 07:05 PM
Second question is in regards to some of the snarky lines the protagonist gets during the game; are any of them dependant on the protagonist's alignment, or cause alignment shifts?

I don't think the snarky lines depend on the character's alignment, and I'm absolutely sure that they don't cause alignment shifts. I'm don't remember any method that could shift your alignment to good, and the only way to shift to evil is to do something absolutely horrific. I won't spoil which some of those things are, but you should be able to figure them out when the time comes. There's also a reputation score that gets affected by your actions, but it has nothing to do with alignment and anything that might change it is fairly obvious. Murdering the innocent or donating large sums to a church, for example. The snarky lines do affect how much the NPC in question likes you, so you might want to hold your tongue on those that you don't want to piss off.

ShadowFighter15
2009-05-18, 07:17 PM
To be honest, I've only learned 2e recently and it's not much more complicated than 3.5, only that 3.5 is written in a much more accessible manner.

Well even the way it's written would've put me off.

@Narkis: Guess I'll be making use of the quicksave a bit then. I'm mainly wanting to see the reactions to some of the comments. Like one I found on wikiquote:

Emissary Tar: At last, someone who looks like they could be of some assistance! The assorted boobs and dimwits around here have been of very little help.
Protagonist: I'm afraid you have mistaken us for someone else. I'm Dimwit, this is my good friend Boob, and behind me you'll find Brainless and Moron. How do you do?

Yora
2009-05-19, 06:17 AM
Usually, the NPCs seem just a bit startled for a moment, but then the dialog continues as before. It's mostly for comedic effect.

factotum
2009-05-19, 06:36 AM
Thought so; I just wanted to make sure. Seeing all that makes me glad I got into D&D when the current edition was 3.5. If I got into it during 2e, I think I'd only get halfway through the rules before giving up.

You should try making a Bard in First Edition...you had to dual-class into three separate classes to manage it!

mangosta71
2009-05-19, 09:17 AM
I will point out that the BG engine only allows you to switch classes via dual-classing once. Also, more than the alignment restriction given in the rules, it requires the combination of classes you choose to already exist in the form of a multi-class option for one of the other races (no dual class paladins or bards).

Zen Monkey
2009-05-19, 12:10 PM
When dual-classing from fighter into cleric, you lose the fighter's 'abilities' until your new cleric level passes your old fighter level.

So, that said, would the new cleric get the bonuses from high strength and constitution that are normally reserved for fighters? Would they just come back for the levels gained after fighter is unlocked again, or maybe never at all?

Optimystik
2009-05-19, 12:50 PM
If learning the previous systems becomes a headache, check out the Baldur's Gate project when you get a chance - they are writing a 3.5e remake of BG for NWN2. The beta is out, and I think they completed Icewind Dale already too. Should be on the Vault.

Johnny Blade
2009-05-19, 12:57 PM
The way I remember it, the bonuses for high strength have nothing at all to do with your character's class.
It's just that only a character starting in one of the warrior classes ever rolls for bonus values at a strength of 18.

The HP bonus for a constitution above 16, however, would only be granted for the actual Fighter levels.

Al-Ashrad
2009-05-19, 01:10 PM
I haven't played Baldur's Gate I, but I've played the bejeesus out of BGII, including Throne of Bhaal. I've played every class possible and can tell you quick and easy ways to get past some extremely tough opponents (namely Firkraag and the demi-lich) that even the strategy guides don't tell you. BGII is a great game that I still enjoy going back to years later.

How folks described dual-classing is spot on. I've done it repeatedly with the Fighter who dual-classes into a Thief (the only dual class worth taking in BGII, especially if you include ToB).

Also, the dialogue doesn't play with your alignment at all in BGII. It can mess with your alignment in Neverwinter Nights though, so be careful if you plan on playing that someday.

Finally, I would recommend keeping your Reputation in the "Average" range (10-12). If you're any higher or lower, you hear a bunch of inane spoutings from your party members. A lot. Seriously, some of them just don't shut up. Also, if your Reputation gets too high, Korgan, a seriously bad-ass Dwarf Berserker, will leave your party and never return (and he will keep all of the swag you put on him).

Enjoy.

Guancyto
2009-05-19, 01:29 PM
Maximum reputation will get you half off all your purchases, and only evil party members will leave you.

Almost-max (18) will get you 30% off all stores, and your evil party members will complain but not leave.

High reputation for the win!

Also, almost nothing influences your alignment in the BG series, and your alignment influences almost nothing.

mangosta71
2009-05-19, 01:32 PM
There are mods that allow you to keep party members when your reputation drifts too far away from what they think it should be. Getting it either really high or really low gets you big discounts from shops, and there are a number of extremely good items that you can only get from shops (Robe of Vecna, for example). However, having it really low leads to guards spawning pretty much every time you travel to a new zone.

That said, I don't think I ever kept Korgan in the long run. Keldorn was just so much more useful. My most common party makeup was me, Keldorn, Viconia, Jaheira, Nalia, and Yoshimo/Imoen. I was mostly saddened that Minsc wasn't a more useful character because he was the best NPC in game for lols (getting into the Asylum by having Minsc talk to the guy is pure comedic gold). Also wish there had been an NPC sorcerer, monk, or thief (although I did toy with Gatekeeper to turn Imoen into a sorceress on several runthroughs just because it fits her personality better than mage).

Philistine
2009-05-19, 02:25 PM
When dual-classing from fighter into cleric, you lose the fighter's 'abilities' until your new cleric level passes your old fighter level.

So, that said, would the new cleric get the bonuses from high strength and constitution that are normally reserved for fighters? Would they just come back for the levels gained after fighter is unlocked again, or maybe never at all?

Fighters don't gain any "extra abilities" from having a high STR score; it's just that they (along with Paladins and Rangers, and Barbarians in BG2) are the only ones who get to roll for "18-plus-percentile" enhanced STR at character creation (though it's possible for any character to get 19 STR in either game, thus bypassing the entire screwy 18+ bonus mechanic). Dual-classing doesn't change your stats; your STR score remains unchanged.

As for CON, the only bonus Fighters (and Paladins, Rangers, and Barbarians) get from a high score is a few extra HP for levels 1-9; at level 10+ you get a flat 3HP/level independent of your CON score. Dual-classing also doesn't change your HP total - so just wait to dual-class until after reaching level 9 as a Fighter (which is advisable anyway due to the better attacks/round and THAC0 progression).

Wraith
2009-05-19, 04:31 PM
How folks described dual-classing is spot on. I've done it repeatedly with the Fighter who dual-classes into a Thief (the only dual class worth taking in BGII, especially if you include ToB).

Druid was usually good for a giggle - Once you'd passed the Cut-Off level and could use your old weapons again especially, as the video game didn't have the same restrictions on weapons and armour as the tabletop.

Full Plate Mail + Tower Shield + Iron Skins = Casting Storm of Vengeance in the middle of a crowd with impunity :smallbiggrin:


Also, more than the alignment restriction given in the rules, it requires the combination of classes you choose to already exist in the form of a multi-class option for one of the other races (no dual class paladins or bards).

Despite what I just said above, this IS because of the original (table top) rules that the BG series was a stickler for. By and large, D&D 3.5 would have been a vast improvement on 2nd Edition, for purposes of building appropriate characters (for example, Imoen would be able to choose between Wizard and Thief when she wanted to rather than suddenly appear so different, Aerie would be justified in being a Cleric/Wizard rather than being the ONLY one, etc.)

SurlySeraph
2009-05-19, 09:27 PM
How folks described dual-classing is spot on. I've done it repeatedly with the Fighter who dual-classes into a Thief (the only dual class worth taking in BGII, especially if you include ToB).

Kensai/Wizard. Berserker/Cleric.

SilentDragoon
2009-05-19, 09:48 PM
Kensai/Wizard. Berserker/Cleric.
Bwuh? Unless you throw in a fixpack Berserkers can't multi or dual class.

Al-Ashrad
2009-05-19, 11:08 PM
Kensai/Wizard. Berserker/Cleric.

Ok... so who's going to be your Thief in Throne of Bhaal?

Yoshimo? He doesn't respond to the portal, even if he doesn't die on you in Shadows of Amn.

Imoen or Nalia? They don't level up as Thieves anymore, and can't disable any of the traps in ToB.

Jan? Well, he does level up as a Thief, but he's too much of a liability otherwise.

Nope... you're going to be the party Thief.

Also, who's going to wield the Flail of Ages? Korgan and Sarevok already come with 5 "ranks" in a different weapon, and you'll probably want Sarevok to get 5 ranks in halberd so he can use the Ravager. Valygar, Minsc and Keldorn can't get five ranks in any weapon. Anomen can get five ranks in flail, so he is an option. But it will take a while.

The Flail of Ages will become too great a weapon to put it in the hands of someone who can't take full advantage of a flail.

So, you start off as a Fighter with five ranks in flail, and as soon as you finish the initial dialogue with Imoen, you dual-class over to Thief.

Also, in ToB, Thieves can get the "Use any Item" ability, which is a major plus if you're a Fighter/Thief.

Finally, Wizards aren't the game-breaker in BGII that they can be in D&D. They get hit too easily and immediately lose whatever spell they were casting. Hell, I almost always DON'T take a Wizard with me in ToB, and on the rare occasions where I do take a Wizard with me in ToB, it's always Jan, because he can still level up as a Thief.


Regarding "discounts", I didn't take much stock in reputation discounts, especially since by the end of ToB you have about 1 million GPs. I'd much rather have no party members pissed off or so happy that they must tell me about it every other minute.


As for party make-up, I usually went with this...

Shadows of Amn- "End game line-up"
You- Fighter/Thief
Anomen
Keldorn
Korgan
Minsc
Valygar


For Throne of Bhaal, I usually go with this line-up...

You- Fighter/Thief
Sarevok
Anomen
Keldorn
Korgan
Valygar or Minsc

This Brute Squad would cut through most anything pretty fast.

For some reason, in ToB I've had absolutely no problem running around without a Wizard. Your mileage may vary though.

SmartAlec
2009-05-19, 11:48 PM
Imoen or Nalia? They don't level up as Thieves anymore, and can't disable any of the traps in ToB.

As an aside: all Imoen or Nalia need to do is detect the traps. The traps themselves can often be taken care of by, for example, a summoned creature.

In any case, I don't remember having any trap problems whilst using Imoen as a thief - possibly because I had Imoen and Nalia, and Imoen was loaded up with all the rogue bonus equipment and potions I could find while Nalia recieved all the mage equipment.

Philistine
2009-05-20, 01:56 AM
Bwuh? Unless you throw in a fixpack Berserkers can't multi or dual class.

Berrserker is a Fighter kit in BG2, and it most certainly can dual-class. Perhaps you're thinking of Barbarian?
_____________________________________

Ok... so who's going to be your Thief in Throne of Bhaal?

Yoshimo? He doesn't respond to the portal, even if he doesn't die on you in Shadows of Amn.

Imoen or Nalia? They don't level up as Thieves anymore, and can't disable any of the traps in ToB.

Jan? Well, he does level up as a Thief, but he's too much of a liability otherwise.

Nope... you're going to be the party Thief.
Imoen is all the Thief you ever need, especially if geared up with all the equipment with bonuses to Thieving skills, as SmartAlec suggested. Even more especially since the only Thief skill that's really necessary is Find/Remove Traps.


Also, who's going to wield the Flail of Ages? Korgan and Sarevok already come with 5 "ranks" in a different weapon, and you'll probably want Sarevok to get 5 ranks in halberd so he can use the Ravager. Valygar, Minsc and Keldorn can't get five ranks in any weapon. Anomen can get five ranks in flail, so he is an option. But it will take a while.

The Flail of Ages will become too great a weapon to put it in the hands of someone who can't take full advantage of a flail.

So, you start off as a Fighter with five ranks in flail, and as soon as you finish the initial dialogue with Imoen, you dual-class over to Thief.

Also, in ToB, Thieves can get the "Use any Item" ability, which is a major plus if you're a Fighter/Thief.
Unless you're modding, 5-rank weapon proficiency in BG2/ToB really isn't a big deal: it doesn't give anywhere near the bonuses it did in BG1, so going with 2-ranks is completely viable.

Also, Flail of Ages is nice, but there are a lot of nice weapons in the game. Ravager, Axe of the Unyielding, and the Silver Sword all give insta-kill capability; Carsomyr is, well, Carsomyr; Crom Faeyr gives a huge STR boost in addition to its other abilities; Angurvadal gives a lesser STR boost, but adds protection from level drain (which, when you need it, you really need it!); Celestial Fury has a stun which stays relevant right through ToB... The point is, there's no one weapon that's so much more powerful than everything else that you just can't do without it. In all the times I've beaten ToB, only once or twice have I had anyone wielding FoA at all by the endgame - much less designed and built my entire character from level 1 just to take advantage of it.


Finally, Wizards aren't the game-breaker in BGII that they can be in D&D. They get hit too easily and immediately lose whatever spell they were casting. Hell, I almost always DON'T take a Wizard with me in ToB, and on the rare occasions where I do take a Wizard with me in ToB, it's always Jan, because he can still level up as a Thief.
Huh? Mages in BG2 get an absurd number of "can't touch this" spells - one of the common complaints about the game has always been that fights with high-level spellcasters tend to devolve into "Rock, Paper, Scissors"-type dispel-fests so that the physical dmage dealers can get in and land a hit at all. I usually prefer to run with two, in fact - usually Nalia and Imoen, because multi-classed (as opposed to dual-classed) casters like Aerie and Jan tend to get left behind at higher levels, and I rarely play Evil enough to keep Edwin happy.


Regarding "discounts", I didn't take much stock in reputation discounts, especially since by the end of ToB you have about 1 million GPs. I'd much rather have no party members pissed off or so happy that they must tell me about it every other minute.
I don't remember "hearing about it" from my party members anywhere near that often. I may have changed a setting (or used a mod) to stifle it, though. In any case, if that's such a big deal then just roll up an entire party for yourself - then you'll never have to hear any of it at all, with any rep.


As for party make-up, I usually went with this...

Shadows of Amn- "End game line-up"
You- Fighter/Thief
Anomen
Keldorn
Korgan
Minsc
Valygar


For Throne of Bhaal, I usually go with this line-up...

You- Fighter/Thief
Sarevok
Anomen
Keldorn
Korgan
Valygar or Minsc

This Brute Squad would cut through most anything pretty fast.

For some reason, in ToB I've had absolutely no problem running around without a Wizard. Your mileage may vary though.
I primarily played as martial types - or at least started as a Fighter before dual-classing into something else. The only other constant in my parties was Imoen - I think I brought her along every time, because in-character it just didn't make any sense not to. After that, let's see... usually Nalia, unless my PC was a Mage. Sometimes Keldorn, if I wanted to have Carsomyr in the party but wasn't interested in playing a Paladin myself that time through. Either Anomen or Viconia, unless I was playing a Cleric myself Viconia was the only Evil character I ever kept for long). Jaheira sometimes, either with or without Viconia (Jaheira was the only multi-class character I used - and in later playthroughs, I usually Gatekeepered her to straight-class Druid or Avenger). Minsc was great for lulz; if I decided not to use him, I'd typically keep both him and Aerie long enough for him to declare her "his new Witch," then drop them off together. Yoshimo I'd keep up to Spellhold - to provide Thieving skills, and because his departure opened up a party slot for Imoen. Mazzy and/or Valygar got used occasionally, but less often than Keldorn and Minsc. Sarevok, Korgan, and Edwin got very little use at all (see above re: not Evil enough). Neither did Jan and Aerie (see above re: multi-classed casters). And Haer'dalis and Cernd just... never did much for me - I think I had each of them in the party for one playthrough; neither of them made much of an impression.

cnsvnc
2009-05-20, 03:21 AM
There's no such thing as "evil enough" in BG2. It's so easy when you're evil. Korgan, Vicky and Edwin can win the vanilla game all by themselves (maybe except for Kangaxx and Draconis) and they'll stay with 18 rep. Not to mention, those get the best lines.

Or a "good" party setup would include Valygar, Mazzy and Keldorn. Which also creates much joyful interaction.

Imoen and Jaheira are given afaic. They're almost family (doubly so if you romance Jaheira, which is admittedly kinda squicky).Just don't go for Imoen romance mod, and everything will be all right.

Aotrs Commander
2009-05-20, 06:53 AM
Funny this thread should come up the day after I started playing through BG 2 again. (I got inspired by the discussions on the Dragon Age: Origins forums).

Personally, my last run through, I went 8 Fighter/Mage (about level 33 by the end, I think). My party consisted of Minsc, Aerie, Jaheria, with Imoen replacing Yoshino (#@!$% bastard... My second (aborted) playthrough, I made a point of Finger Of Deathing him in the Copper Coronet my first chance). I swiped Mazzy and used her for pretty much the rest of the game. I did have Nalia, but when she disappeared at the start of her plot (causing me to shriek about them nicking all my damn wizards) I never found where to get her back.

I never really bothered with any of the other NPCs, am I'm not likely to this time. I'm still not playing evil (so no evil characters anyway). And, as you've noticed, I have a preferance for casters. On the basis I find it way more fun to drop umpteen explodey spells on the bad guys rather than just blender them with my dual-short swords. (Still, Stoneskin + Tenser's Tranform + insanely high Con = 350-odd hits last time around, which was quite a giggle.)

This run is liable to be a near-repeat of the last, only with a few mods. I've spammed a lot of the tweaks in the easy-to-play mods, so I can do all the bits I didn't do last time(s), like the not-fighter stronghold. (And I've added the Imoen romance mod which I shall do at least as far as the end of SoA, since she's easily my favourite NPC character.)

I very seriously thought about going Dual-class thief, but the fact I never use backstab or stealth at all in most games and you can only duel-class once disuaded me. I did briefly consider a half-elf Fighter/mage/thief, but elected against it, since the main advantage of Fighter/Mage is the stupid amounts of hit points. Knowing what I do now, and as I'm not trying to do a character I had in mind like I did the first time, I have sunk points in Axe and Flail, though, as by the end of the game I plan on wading in with the Flail of Ages and the Axe of the Unyielding. (I did consider Kensai, but decided that in the end, I preferred fighter and having ranged weapons. Yeah, I'm a bit picky like that.)

(The latter, in my opinion, is the best weapon in the game. On one abortive playthrough, where I'd deliberatly munchkinned out for kicks, I equipped the Bhaalspawn with two of 'em via 'Keeper... That was fun right up until the point she got Dominated, at which point it bacame something of a drawback...)

mangosta71
2009-05-20, 09:25 AM
The first time I played through BG2, my character was an assassin. Gave him a pair of boots of speed and he was able to solo the mind flayer place by going into stealth, pop a septuple damage backstab (would one or twoshot anything in there) and run around a corner so he could go back into stealth. I always giggled a bit when a mind flayer at full health, surrounded by friends, suddenly just exploded.

SurlySeraph
2009-05-20, 04:45 PM
Bwuh? Unless you throw in a fixpack Berserkers can't multi or dual class.

Oh? It worked for me, and I don't think I have any fixpacks.

@Al-Ashrad: Any of the thieves are good enough. If they can't find a trap, that's OK because I always have the fighter-types walk in front to soak up the damage. Personally, I always one or two wizards, because it's so important to be able to dispel opposing wizards' defenses. I find being able to kill everything with little effort more useful than being able to avoid all the traps. But your mileage may vary. And I've actually never used the Flail of Ages much. It's nice, but there are so many hyperpowerful weapons in ToB that I've never found it critical to have.

Al-Ashrad
2009-05-20, 06:33 PM
Oh? It worked for me, and I don't think I have any fixpacks.

@Al-Ashrad: Any of the thieves are good enough. If they can't find a trap, that's OK because I always have the fighter-types walk in front to soak up the damage. Personally, I always one or two wizards, because it's so important to be able to dispel opposing wizards' defenses. I find being able to kill everything with little effort more useful than being able to avoid all the traps. But your mileage may vary. And I've actually never used the Flail of Ages much. It's nice, but there are so many hyperpowerful weapons in ToB that I've never found it critical to have.

Keldorn gets a butt-load of Dispels at his disposal, and he gets more if you make Carsomyr a +6 weapon. And Keldorn's Dispels go off faster.

Also, have you totally amped up the Flail of Ages? It ends up being a +5 flail that does a lot of damage.

Also, some of the traps in ToB end up being area effect, IIRC. I will also admit that I'm an experience point whore, so being able to disarm a trap (and get XPs) is better than having some summoned creature, or Minsc, set it off instead (and get no XPs).



...Korgan, Vicky and Edwin can win the vanilla game all by themselves...

I thought Edwin was just terrible. A mage that can't cast Identify isn't worth squat. His side quest does become pretty funny though.

Philistine
2009-05-20, 06:47 PM
But some magical protective effects aren't affected by Dispel Magic - they require specific counters.

Also, Imoen can remove every trap in the game, if properly equipped (and occasionally using potions for the really tough ones).

Next, I have fully upgraded the FoA, in every game I've played since ToB came out. It's just that IMO various other effects such as "insta-kill," "grants 25 STR," and "prevents level drain" are more useful than an extra 5 damage/hit.

Finally, Identify is nice, but a good Lore skill does about the same job. And if you don't sweat reputation because money is no object, why quibble over the cost of having shopkeepers do your identifying?

Guancyto
2009-05-20, 07:13 PM
Plus there's an item that gives you Identify 3/day. With a high-lore character, that should be all you ever need.

Edwin is missing the most underused spell school (despite how awesome it is in P&P, Divination is lousy in BG) in exchange for 3 extra spell slots per level. Per level! He's great.

Enemy defenses can be bypassed a number of ways, but the best one is to have a breaker wizard of your own. Ruby Ray -> Breach and have your physical fighters go to town. Without one, you generally need the Watcher's Keep-only wands and even those can't do Spell Trap. And if they've got Spell Trap (and they do), you can't take out the gigacheese buff that is Protection from Magical Weapons, and (at least in my games) are reduced to running away and throwing summons at them until it wears off.

Aside from that, Improved Haste is amazing in pre-ToB, and when ToB rolls around you've got Planetars. Wizards aren't the uber end-all class in Baldur's Gate, but I wouldn't consider skipping them except as a self-imposed challenge.

Also, Stoneskin is ridiculously overpowered for caster defense. Unless the enemy has some elemental damage a la fire arrows, you can pretty much toss spells with impunity.

Trazoi
2009-05-20, 07:21 PM
Finally, Wizards aren't the game-breaker in BGII that they can be in D&D. They get hit too easily and immediately lose whatever spell they were casting. Hell, I almost always DON'T take a Wizard with me in ToB, and on the rare occasions where I do take a Wizard with me in ToB, it's always Jan, because he can still level up as a Thief.
I don't know about pure mages, but my sorcerer PC could mop the floor with anything. He was a bit weak to begin with, but about a third of the way through he was easily the most powerful character in the group. By ToB, the sorcerer was handling all the fights almost entirely by himself, with the occasional Dispel Magic from Keldorn. As long as you learn the right spells (*cough* Project Image *cough*), you'll be golden.

cnsvnc
2009-05-21, 04:07 AM
I thought Edwin was just terrible. A mage that can't cast Identify isn't worth squat. His side quest does become pretty funny though.

Wha? Edwin is THE most powerful NPC, roughly as good as a wizard PC. And don't cast identify, not even worth the time. Just pay up, it's not like $ is short. An Edwin worth his salt soloes all Cowled Wizard enforcers.

SmartAlec
2009-05-21, 05:17 AM
It's widely recognised that while most of the good and neutral party members are good all-rounders, being dual-classed, multi-classed or having interesting kits, the three Evil party members - Korgan, Viconia and Edwin - are all first-class examples of single-class power. Add in an Evil PC thief (hey, why not an Assassin?) and you have a team that's capable of some pretty amazing stuff despite only being four members strong.

Add in The New Party Member in Throne of Bhaal and Team Evil really does kick a dangerous amount of backside.

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-21, 05:18 AM
Hi there, I recently enjoyed a great (but unfinished) game of BG2 with my Half-orc Assassin. and I plan to try it again... (evil party ftw! Korgan, Viconia, Edwin, Yoshimo/Imoen, Sarevok [with Valygar as temporary sidekick.. Maybe I should try Mazzy for hot Dwarf on Hobbit action])

However, I'd like to get some more meat in this game. More quests, and, specially, more help regarding the Viconia Romance (she is the most complicated woman I've ever seen in my life. And I have ennough background for a statistical analysis).

If people would suggest mods that increase the gameplay in all features I've said, I'd be grateful. I've heard of the Expanded Thief Stronghold mod (a must), and maybe the Assassin mod?

More intra-party banters? (that's always fun). Any other increase in quests available? Multi-stronghold? Expanded Romance mod? Insight of Relationship?

Please, because of the overwhelming amount of mods for BG2, present in the Internet (and because not everybody has taken 5 skill ranks in Knowledge (BG2 Mods), identify proposed mod clearly like I did up-there :smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2009-05-21, 05:47 AM
DID SOMEONE SAY MODS?? *swoops in*

I am... *musical sting* MOD-MAN!!

Have some mods my good fellow!

New (and Old) NPCs:
Xan- an old favorite, Xan is a brilliant mod for those who wish there was a really good NPC mage that isn't Edwin. He's fun, good, has fully voiced lines, lots of interaction, and just plain rocks. Try him, you'll love him. Found at Pocket Plane Group.

Ninde- a female necromancer, Ninde is a new offering from Spellhold Studios. She's sassy, powerful, and interested in the PC. A bit too interested if you ask me.... Ninde's worth a try if you wanted another romance, or just want some different folk around.

Tsujatha- another necromancer, but this time male and from another planet (literally!), Tsujatha can be found online (private site, just Google him). He's a veeeery odd bird that one, but he's dripping with extra-planar flavor. Try Tsujatha, and you won't be disappointed.

Quests:
Unfinished Business- what I consider a freaking MUST for anyone who plays BG2, UB adds back into the game all the content the developers cut at the last minute, but left in the game files. It adds lots of quests, banters, and fun times for all. Don't know where to find it, but Google probably does.

The Longer Road- the single best mod in the entire community, in my opinion, the Longer Road lets you bring Jonaleth Irenicus back from beyond death in ToB to serve your ends. If you are convincing enough, you can even redeem him and put him back on the road towards true redemption. Are YOU up for the challenge? The Longer Road can be found at Spellhold Studios.

Beyond the Law- a combination NPC and quest mod, BTL tracks the story of Kiyone, a lawwoman from the north, and Kova, an accused killer who claims it wasn't him. Along the way, you find out the truth behind the lies, see love blossom in unexpected places, and might be able to realize what really happens in Athkatla's dark corners. BTL can be found at Spellhold Studios.

NPC Flirt Pack and the Extended Romance Mod- Not technically quests, but they are interesting in terms of banter and gameplay, these mods expand the current romances more than a few times over. A must for any true fan. They can be found on the internet (Google-san wants to speak with you).

Revised Battles- again, not TECHNICALLY a quest-mod, but it might as well be. It makes a number of battles much harder. If you are of a strategic bent, you could do a lot worse. I believe this one comes from Spellhold Studios.

Fixpacks:
There are a number of these running around. I suggest anything on Gibberlings Three, they're the most up-to-date ones. Go on, go download them!

Links:
Spellhold Studios: http://www.spellholdstudios.net/
Gibberlings Three: http://www.gibberlings3.net/
Sorcerer's Place: http://www.sorcerers.net/
Pocket Plane Group: http://www.pocketplane.net/mambo/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

All of these are great sites, and are the four I use the most. Spellhold is the most active, with lots of great content.

Now, I sense I am needed elsewhere... AVAST!!! *flies away*

bladedSmoke
2009-05-21, 06:01 AM
A good mod is the Virtue mod (http://www.pocketplane.net/mambo/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=107&Itemid=82). "Reputation" becomes simply what other people think of you and a new, similar score system is added, "Virtue," which keeps track of your good and evil actions. Too evil and your alignment changes (or too good).

You can have a high Reputation, with everyone thinking you're a hero, and yet a low Virtue, meaning you've just gotten away with a load of evil actions which people haven't noticed. Or vice versa - unpopular, but makes the right choices. If you kill a Commoner with no-one around to notice, your Virtue falls but your Reputation doesn't.

Makes the whole game about five times more realistic and immersive in my opinion.

cnsvnc
2009-05-21, 06:11 AM
Dungeon Be Gone is a MUST, MUST I say. For the truly experienced BG2 player who'd begin to play again in a blink if only not for the dismal prologue.

Or alternately Improved Chateau Irenicus, for the truly masochistic; which transforms the dismal vanilla prologue into a dismally difficult challange that no sane person would even consider. Holds the record of the only mod that proved too difficult to play.


Also, for the very end, Ascension. Makes the final final battle much more interesting. Very hard tho, especially on higher difficulty levels. (yep, difficulty slider actually MATTERS with this one)

Arang
2009-05-21, 06:19 AM
Next, I have fully upgraded the FoA, in every game I've played since ToB came out. It's just that IMO various other effects such as "insta-kill," "grants 25 STR," and "prevents level drain" are more useful than an extra 5 damage/hit.


The real power of the FoA is to put the hurt on enemy mages. Say they have Protection from Fire, Protection from Ice and Stoneskin on. You can still interrupt their spells. Of course, I still prefer Axe of the Unyielding and Crom Faeyr, but those weapons are straight cheese and shouldn't count. FoA is most useful when you should get it (which is level 10-ish), IMO.

Also, you can't really slam low reputations, even in the vanilla game where you don't get the discounts. All those guards have insane amounts of things for you to sell, especially early game when you might actually want for gold. Same reason why Thief/Mages are so great solo - with seven traps you can instakill every Cowled Enforced group right up to Zallanora. That's a lot a lot of XP and gear at level 7.

EDIT: For the people who are saying Wizards and Edwin are underpowered: by ToB, my cheesiest strategy was to actually let him fight. Draconis was the first fight since before Spellhold when I'd needed to use anyone except Korgan for anything but dispelling, buffs and true sight. The Chain Contingency/Project Image/Planetar/Summoning items combo in particular is quite nasty (though it doesn't work on Draconis thanks to his brokenlicious Death Aura :smallfrown:)

arguskos
2009-05-21, 06:53 AM
Dungeon Be Gone is a MUST, MUST I say. For the truly experienced BG2 player who'd begin to play again in a blink if only not for the dismal prologue.

Or alternately Improved Chateau Irenicus, for the truly masochistic; which transforms the dismal vanilla prologue into a dismally difficult challange that no sane person would even consider. Holds the record of the only mod that proved too difficult to play.


Also, for the very end, Ascension. Makes the final final battle much more interesting. Very hard tho, especially on higher difficulty levels. (yep, difficulty slider actually MATTERS with this one)
HAH! I actually beat Improved Chateau Irenicus. Wasn't THAT hard... for some characters that weren't fresh out of BG1.

Also, Dungeon B Gone is a good catch. Fun and useful, though I feel it breaks immersion more than a little, so I tend to not have it installed.

Frog Dragon
2009-05-21, 08:21 AM
Stoneskin is sorta broken. Especially with fire shield. Enemy melees can't hurt you and to top it off their hits just go back to them. Someone with Fire shield and Stoneskin can solo most melee in the game sometimes without even casting anymore spells.

Winthur
2009-05-21, 09:22 AM
I thought Edwin was just terrible. A mage that can't cast Identify isn't worth squat. His side quest does become pretty funny though.

You're kidding, right? Especially since he has more spells than any other mage in the game, even a Player Character? That in BG1 there are merchants at Nashkel's who identify for cheap? That in BG2 there's a handy magic item that allows you to cast "Identify" three times?

The only spell that I would grieve over is True Seeing. Oh, wait, a cleric can cast that. So scrap that.


Finally, Wizards aren't the game-breaker in BGII that they can be in D&D. They get hit too easily and immediately lose whatever spell they were casting. Hell, I almost always DON'T take a Wizard with me in ToB, and on the rare occasions where I do take a Wizard with me in ToB, it's always Jan, because he can still level up as a Thief.

That depends. A mighty enough mage can easily win the game without any companions. On the other hand, my first team was basically a bunch of beatsticks and fared well with "Dispel" support. "Haste" was more useful than "Fireball". But all in all, I always had some use of the mages, even if sometimes they would just stand in the back after they ran out of spells.

And how are you dispelling the enemy enchantments? Buff your characters (Haste & Slow FTW!)? Hell, ever used Death Spell on a bunch of Illithids? :smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2009-05-21, 09:34 AM
Heh, just beat down Demogorgon. Love that fight. Pretty hard, but very very enjoyable. :smallbiggrin:

Anyways, did anyone but me actually get annoyed by Edwin's banters? The whole "I'm a smug arrogant bastard" routine gets old quick, at least IMO.

And did no one but me actually LIKE Cernd and Haer'Dalis? :smallfrown: I love the nature metaphors from the former and the ornithological naming conventions of the latter. :smallamused:

Winthur
2009-05-21, 09:51 AM
And did no one but me actually LIKE Cernd and Haer'Dalis?

Haer'Dalis is DA BOMB! I love the Bard sub-classes, actually. Blade is the most super special awesome of them all (competent magic&sword blended into one class? Yes please!), but I also liked to play Jester (I used him in a multiplayer game once and he proceeded to unleash some eye candy, like during fights with lots of mooks (the shadow temple thingy comes to mind). Haer'Dalis' only faulty stat is Constitution, but other than that, a great character. ("Let's sell Jaheira" :smallbiggrin: )
As for Cernd, when I first played through this game, I really wanted him, but in truth, I just didn't know how to utilize him. Maybe his powers came too late to be useful, but in his werewolf form he was just another beatstick with unusally low AC (but not really powerful), and I couldn't find the use for most of his spells (and losing many Cleric spells as a pain). As a result, he usually just stood in the back or served as a mediocre meat shield. I dumped him in ToB in favor of... well, you know who.

As for Edwin, yeah, I find that him and Minsc can grow a little dull after a while. Good thing Bioware has good writers that can surprise you with unexpected twists. (Edwin seems to share a certain bond with Brynnlaw's prostitutes...)

But I love all the NPCs. Yes, even Aerie or Anomen. Even Nalia. And in BG1, the S-M-R-T-E-S-T... er.... S-M-A-R-T-E-S-T gnome in the universe - Quayle. :smallsmile:

Speaking of powerful mages... Eyecandy time! (http://img43.imageshack.us/my.php?image=eyecandy.jpg)

Frog Dragon
2009-05-21, 10:32 AM
About the druid spells

Two words

Insect Plague

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-21, 11:02 AM
Mod-Man's heroic intervention

Thank Mod-Man! But I want to know, is the Quest Pack Mod from Pocket Plane Group any good? Should I try it mixed with other mods?

Morty
2009-05-21, 11:17 AM
Hm, now I feel tempted to install BG2 again to check all those mods... but then, I'd probably get bored quickly. And I don't think they'd work well with Polish version of the game anyway.

Winthur
2009-05-21, 11:19 AM
That depends. Polish WeiDU mods usually have their own Polish versions, so they work pretty well. Though I never heard of a mod that can screw your dialog.tlk completely.

arguskos
2009-05-21, 11:14 PM
Thank Mod-Man! But I want to know, is the Quest Pack Mod from Pocket Plane Group any good? Should I try it mixed with other mods?
Mod-Man says.... it's pretty good. If you're after TONS of new quests, give it a try.

Also, I remembered another excellent mod from PPG: Assassinations. If you are playing an assassin-type, it's totally worth doing.

Guancyto
2009-05-22, 12:30 AM
Also of note:

Ashes of Embers is a neat mod if you're tired of the usual weapon restrictions. It removes the class restrictions on weapon type and replaces it with stat requirements. Mage with a longbow? Why not!

Ease-of-Use Packs are a must. It simplifies your inventory management and makes it so you don't need tons of containers to fit all your stuff.

Valen is a pretty bare-bones NPC and you really, really really have to have an all-evil party to make her work (she kills a lot of people and drops your reputation substantially, so if you aren't careful even neutrals will leave you), but she's a very handy character to have around and an interesting tactical edge as well. Oh, and she's a vampire. Rawr.

Also, don't get Virtue if you're planning on playing a Paladin. You can't steal anything ever or you'll fall! :smallfrown:

bladedSmoke
2009-05-22, 03:34 AM
Also, don't get Virtue if you're planning on playing a Paladin. You can't steal anything ever or you'll fall! :smallfrown:

Yeah, that's true. Only get Virtue if, as I do, you prefer realism over easy gameplay.

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-22, 03:42 AM
Also, don't get Virtue if you're planning on playing a Paladin. You can't steal anything ever or you'll fall! :smallfrown:

Well.. playing a Paladin isn't supposed to be an easy thing... It's meant to be hard and demanding for everybody involved. With the Virtue mod installed, I am sure it's gonna be more satisfying to become a true epic paladin :smallbiggrin:

Philistine
2009-05-22, 05:31 AM
The real power of the FoA is to put the hurt on enemy mages. Say they have Protection from Fire, Protection from Ice and Stoneskin on. You can still interrupt their spells. Of course, I still prefer Axe of the Unyielding and Crom Faeyr, but those weapons are straight cheese and shouldn't count. FoA is most useful when you should get it (which is level 10-ish), IMO.

But the real problem with enemy mages isn't Stoneskin + Protection from Fire: it's Protection from Magic Weapons + Spell Turning/Spell Shield, usually with Project Image as an added bonus. Worse, high-level enemy mages typically have this stuff set up on a Contingency or Spell Trigger so that you don't have a chance to interrupt them. You've got to dispel (actually Spellstrike/Pierce Shield/Ruby Ray/Warding Whip + Breach; Dispel Magic doesn't affect several of the higher-level defenses) them before you can even hit them; and the spells that will take down the more powerful magical defenses will also cancel the described Stoneskin combo.

Dixieboy
2009-05-22, 05:42 AM
Usually, the NPCs seem just a bit startled for a moment, but then the dialog continues as before. It's mostly for comedic effect.

Except for some who gives you extra stuff or attack you.

If you want comedy gold have Edwin on your team, AT ALL TIMES.

To those saying Edwin sucks: (I keep encountering them, why?)
Edwin has more spells per day than your own protagonist can ever have, he gets some from his special equipment and some more from being a red wizard and then some for having 18 int.
+ Specialist.

Also, did i mention he's a redwizard?
That means you don't have to fight those overpowered ****

arguskos
2009-05-22, 06:36 AM
But the real problem with enemy mages isn't Stoneskin + Protection from Fire: it's Protection from Magic Weapons + Spell Turning/Spell Shield, usually with Project Image as an added bonus. Worse, high-level enemy mages typically have this stuff set up on a Contingency or Spell Trigger so that you don't have a chance to interrupt them. You've got to dispel (actually Spellstrike/Pierce Shield/Ruby Ray/Warding Whip + Breach; Dispel Magic doesn't affect several of the higher-level defenses) them before you can even hit them; and the spells that will take down the more powerful magical defenses will also cancel the described Stoneskin combo.
I hate freakin' Spell Trap. Isn't Pierce Shield the only one that removes Spell Trap? Also, it gets worse when they toss in some Invisibility effects, since you can't targeted dispel invisible creatures, so you have to use True Seeing/Oracle to even FIND them, then hit them with Breach+Pierce Shield (the only two I ever need to use really), THEN you have Keldorn/Korgan/Minsc/whoever go hit them till they die a miserable death.

Notably, for what it's worth, I never use the Flail of Ages. It's just not worth it. I mean, IF I take Anomen and decide to flail spec him rather than hammer (my usual, since Crom Faeyr is crazy), then I'll give him the FoA for lack of a better flail. That's... about it, honestly.

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-22, 07:04 AM
I hate freakin' Spell Trap. Isn't Pierce Shield the only one that removes Spell Trap? Also, it gets worse when they toss in some Invisibility effects, since you can't targeted dispel invisible creatures, so you have to use True Seeing/Oracle to even FIND them, then hit them with Breach+Pierce Shield (the only two I ever need to use really), THEN you have Keldorn/Korgan/Minsc/whoever go hit them till they die a miserable death.



Just run away, hide in shadow, and go in with Sneak attacks until their defences are down. Then 1-2 hits will be ennough

Boots of Haste are a must

arguskos
2009-05-22, 07:59 AM
Just run away, hide in shadow, and go in with Sneak attacks until their defences are down. Then 1-2 hits will be ennough

Boots of Haste are a must
Ok, so you think backstabs work against this lineup?
-Pro. Magic Weapons
-Spell Trap
-Imp. Invis.
-Pro. Energy
-Pro. Magic Energy
-Pro. Evil
-Fire Shield (Red and Blue)
-Stoneskin

I... am not seeing it. *sigh* The worst part is when they toss a Gate in there, along with some Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting and some Incendiary Cloud.

Given, I'm not degrading the value of some clever backstab attacks, but against liches or other really powerful casters? I don't really think it's your best plan.

Oh, and Boots of Haste. They win so very very much. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-22, 08:15 AM
Ok, so you think backstabs work against this lineup?
-Pro. Magic Weapons
-Spell Trap
-Imp. Invis.
-Pro. Energy
-Pro. Magic Energy
-Pro. Evil
-Fire Shield (Red and Blue)
-Stoneskin

I... am not seeing it. *sigh* The worst part is when they toss a Gate in there, along with some Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting and some Incendiary Cloud.

Given, I'm not degrading the value of some clever backstab attacks, but against liches or other really powerful casters? I don't really think it's your best plan.

Oh, and Boots of Haste. They win so very very much. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Stoneskin & Protection vs Magic weapon are your main concerns here, and I see your worries. Not to forget the Gate which makes a demon comes with True Sight (I hope you have a cloak of non-detection?)

Play around them like a cat and a mouse. Make them loose their spell slots, wait for their magical protection to wear off. It's cheesy tactic, but it's working nonetheless. Stoneskin dies after 20 hits, so you just have to keep hitting, and hitting, until his smooth pinkskin comes back.

Protection vs magical weapon is another matter. I hate that spell sooo much... Maybe a mage that has some breaching spells is available for you?

arguskos
2009-05-22, 09:15 AM
Stoneskin & Protection vs Magic weapon are your main concerns here, and I see your worries. Not to forget the Gate which makes a demon comes with True Sight (I hope you have a cloak of non-detection?)

Play around them like a cat and a mouse. Make them loose their spell slots, wait for their magical protection to wear off. It's cheesy tactic, but it's working nonetheless. Stoneskin dies after 20 hits, so you just have to keep hitting, and hitting, until his smooth pinkskin comes back.

Protection vs magical weapon is another matter. I hate that spell sooo much... Maybe a mage that has some breaching spells is available for you?
Oh, believe me, I have ways to defeat liches and the like, but they're annoying. Esp. when they toss mass debuffs out there (Chaos, Confusion, etc).

The best way I tend to beat through liches is the following:
Step 1- Use one sneaky character (I like Yoshimo) to trigger their AI script so they go into their whole routine of "cast defensive spells, summon a pit fiend, blah blah blah".
Step 2- Run. Run like Hell itself is coming to get you. Hope the Pit Field chases. When it does, lure it into a trap with your party and dice it to cubes.
Step 3- Hope the lich didn't follow (they usually don't since they move SOOO slowly), and pray it Time Stops while you are fleeing. That way, the Time Stop is mostly useless.
Step 4- Bring up the mages after the Time Stop and dispel it's buffs using Breach and Pierce Shield, tossing a Khelben's Warding Whip in there if needed (likely).
Step 5- Dice into cubes. Serve in a chilled bowl with your favorite leafy greens. I recommend Thousand-Island dressing. Serves 6. :smallwink:

That's my standard routine. Of course, if it's a more powerful caster/lich than usual, or a named character (like Vongoethe in ToB or something), I'll mix that up with my own Time Stops; summons for meat shielding; damage spells with short casting times for disruption; or whatever.

I've pretty much got this down to a science.

Also, random note, I have a hard-to-find mod that anyone looking for more gear and spells (as in, hundreds of both!) will really like: TDD sin TDD (http://corellon.clandlan.net/index.php?page=corellon/bgiwd/TDDsinTDD). There is a story with this one too. Basically, there is a massive mod called The Darkest Day. Sadly, this mod is fraught with bad scripting, stupid gameplay, and a railroady plot from hell. But, it comes with so much freaking extra content it's amazing. So, some spanish site managed to strip all the fun new stuff out, and leave the terrible plot and quests behind. Thus, TDD sin TDD.

If you're looking for some great spells and items, grab it. It also comes with lots of NPC's and kits, but they don't always install, so that's a crapshoot (the kits rock, the NPC's are meh).

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-22, 09:26 AM
To be honest, I like it a lot when my character (Gork, the Half-Orc Assassin) manages to solo-kill these uber-ennemies all by himself. It's not the most efficient way of doing it, but it's sooo gratifying..

BTW, was I the only one puzzled when I read the description of the Sorcerer's class in BG2: "No one is sure of the origin of their powers"? Well.. Duh, I'm a Baalspawn!

arguskos
2009-05-22, 09:33 AM
To be honest, I like it a lot when my character (Gork, the Half-Orc Assassin) manages to solo-kill these uber-ennemies all by himself. It's not the most efficient way of doing it, but it's sooo gratifying..

BTW, was I the only one puzzled when I read the description of the Sorcerer's class in BG2: "No one is sure of the origin of their powers"? Well.. Duh, I'm a Baalspawn!
Heh, Gork, heh. :smallamused:

Concerning the sorcerer comment, well... durrhurrhurr, of course the PC knows! :smalltongue: However, most sorcerers probably don't know where their powers come from, seeing as it's a rare and powerful gift and all that.

mangosta71
2009-05-22, 09:36 AM
Valen is a pretty bare-bones NPC and you really, really really have to have an all-evil party to make her work (she kills a lot of people and drops your reputation substantially, so if you aren't careful even neutrals will leave you), but she's a very handy character to have around and an interesting tactical edge as well. Oh, and she's a vampire. Rawr.

Much <3 for Valen. You want a character that can kill a room full of trolls with her bare hands? Then Valen's the girl for you. Just keep her out of the sun. A must have character if you want an evil party. Best thief in the game, too (unless your PC is a thief).She will kill everyone that you would otherwise be able to convince to help you clean out Bohdi's lair, but she can handle that place.

There another mod, forget what it's called so it may have been mentioned already, that gives you the option of upgrading more of your equipment (and actually makes all the gems that drop all over the bloody place useful). In particular, you can combine boots of speed with any other pair of magical boots in the game. Speed + Stealth? Yes, please!

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-22, 09:42 AM
Heh, Gork, heh. :smallamused:


It's the name of my regular Humanorc characters when I want to pay a humanorc. I only learned after that Gork was also one of the Orc Gods' name.

But when you think about it, it makes sense. Gork is "Cunningly Brutal", which is "Hitting you hard when you aren't looking". Perfect for an Assassin :smallbiggrin:

AND a God of Killing. Seriously, why would ANYBODY want to play anything but an Assassin, as your destiny is to become the GOD OF DEATH?!

arguskos
2009-05-22, 09:43 AM
Much <3 for Valen. You want a character that can kill a room full of trolls with her bare hands? Then Valen's the girl for you. Just keep her out of the sun. A must have character if you want an evil party. Best thief in the game, too (unless your PC is a thief).She will kill everyone that you would otherwise be able to convince to help you clean out Bohdi's lair, but she can handle that place.

There another mod, forget what it's called so it may have been mentioned already, that gives you the option of upgrading more of your equipment (and actually makes all the gems that drop all over the bloody place useful). In particular, you can combine boots of speed with any other pair of magical boots in the game. Speed + Stealth? Yes, please!
It's one of the mods Weidu himself made. Ah, yes, now it's coming back! It's Weimer's Item Upgrade mod, found here (http://weidu.org/item.html).

I really am the king of BG2 mods. :smallamused: Helps that I've played through the game maybe 50+ times, with pretty much every combo of race/class that's even remotely playable (actually just started a new game tonight with an evil Berserker that I'll be dual-classing into Mage).

Oh, and as for Valen, yeah, I do like her. I don't run parties THAT evil too frequently, but it's pretty interesting to take her along every now and then. Maybe I'll take her with this party. Though, I'd have to kick Yoshimo, and I love Yoshi.

Last note, for laughs, I'm actually DMing a 3.5 conversion campaign IRL that is heavily based on BG2's story.

EDIT: Yuppers. Gork is a great name for an assassin, though I always envisioned Gork as more of a cunnin' barbarian type, you know, one that rages when you aren't looking, and makes sure you never get a second look. :smallwink:

EDIT the 2nd: You know, we should try getting a multi-player game of BG2 going sometime. If it wasn't for the fact that we'd all need to have the same exact set up, it'd ROCK. I know this, since, well, I tried it a few times on LAN.

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-22, 09:50 AM
EDIT: Yuppers. Gork is a great name for an assassin, though I always envisioned Gork as more of a cunnin' barbarian type, you know, one that rages when you aren't looking, and makes sure you never get a second look. :smallwink:

That's being Brutally Cunning. Also Gork. Or Mork...

Gork & Mork never got sure about which is what... One is Cunningly Brutal, which is hitting you hard when you aren't looking. The other is Brutally Cunning, which is hitting you VERY hard when you are looking.

Warhammer Orcs are da best :smallbiggrin:

But in the meanwhile, I'll settle for a quiet psychopath who killed most of the bad (and good guys) of the game pre-mod, dual-weild Crom Faeyr and Mask's Blade, has Boot of Speeds and always has a Staff of the Magi ready to disapear.

And a Cloak of non-detection. You cannot NOT have a cloak of non-detection.

And got Viconia in his bed. The girl needed some tusklove.

mangosta71
2009-05-22, 09:53 AM
There aren't that many evil NPCs. Figure on the final party makeup being Korgan, Valen, Viconia, Edwin, PC. Unless I'm missing someone, you have a spot free to let Yoshi tag along until you have Valen rip him apart and shove his still-beating heart down what remains of his throat. And you don't have to boot anyone to pick up Sarevok when you get to ToB.

Morty
2009-05-22, 09:58 AM
I tried to make an evil character twice back when I still played BG2. One was a Halfling Swashbuckler and the other a Human Kensai. Both worked well, although I'm not sure if Swashbucker's weapon proficiencies make up for the lack of good backstab attack and Kensai's AC tends to be low. But choosing NPCs was a b*tch. I always ended up missing a part of the team.

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-22, 09:59 AM
There aren't that many evil NPCs. Figure on the final party makeup being Korgan, Valen, Viconia, Edwin, PC. Unless I'm missing someone, you have a spot free to let Yoshi tag along until you have Valen rip him apart and shove his still-beating heart down what remains of his throat. And you don't have to boot anyone to pick up Sarevok when you get to ToB.

On my next Evilrun of BG2 (when I will have finally found back my CDs :smallfrown:), I plan to have Korgan, Viconia, Edwin, PCAssassin, Yoshimo (a must for thief skills at first), and...

Anomen. But I will do all in my power to make Anomen fall. I heard that with the NPCTweak, he is as useful as a Fallen Wannabe as when he becomes paladin. I don't think I will mind a Chaotic Neutral party member...

Until Sarevok arrives, off course. In that case, out Imoen, in Sarevok... :smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2009-05-22, 10:01 AM
And got Viconia in his bed. The girl needed some tusklove.

The girl needed some tusklove.

tusklove
Sir, please step out of the internet. You're under arrest for saying something mind-melting.

On another note, fair enough. Can't blame a guy for scoring with Viconia. Damn, I would too, were I there and she interested.

Yes, I know all about da' Orky godz, Gork un Mork. Dey iz da strongest un da toughest un da Orkyist o' all da boyz.

Also, I do love Fighter dualing into Mage. It's my favorite character combo, right there with elven Mage/Cleric.


There aren't that many evil NPCs. Figure on the final party makeup being Korgan, Valen, Viconia, Edwin, PC. Unless I'm missing someone, you have a spot free to let Yoshi tag along until you have Valen rip him apart and shove his still-beating heart down what remains of his throat. And you don't have to boot anyone to pick up Sarevok when you get to ToB.
You are quite correct. I am however also taking Ninde, an evil mod character who is a straight-classed Necromancer.

Also, I freaking LOVE Yoshimo! How dare you insult his memory!! :smallmad:

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-22, 10:09 AM
It's one of the mods Weidu himself made. Ah, yes, now it's coming back! It's Weimer's Item Upgrade mod, found here (http://weidu.org/item.html).


... You do realise that this will both increase and decrease the difficulty a thousandfold?

Now, I will be cursed of keeping every single little freaking scrap of gem, ring, magical items I will find around, "just in case" they come up useful for magical item creations later on.

This mod is the doom of a packrat :smallfrown: At least, with the "item fix", I will be able to carry unlimited stacks of gems, potions, etc... and much more in my Bag of Holdings...

I still hate you..


Sir, please step out of the internet. You're under arrest for saying something mind-melting.

You know that you really wanted to hear that for ages, and you just never had the courage to be the one saying those words... :smallbiggrin:

Edit: And yhea, Yoshimo is GREAT. Just because I'm evil doesn't mean I'm a rampaging psychopath. There are people I like around Amn, and Yoshimo is one of them. Have you downloaded the Yoshimo Friendship Mod?

arguskos
2009-05-22, 10:17 AM
... You do realise that this will both increase and decrease the difficulty a thousandfold?

Now, I will be cursed of keeping every single little freaking scrap of gem, ring, magical items I will find around, "just in case" they come up useful for magical item creations later on.

This mod is the doom of a packrat :smallfrown: At least, with the "item fix", I will be able to carry unlimited stacks of gems, potions, etc... and much more in my Bag of Holdings...

I still hate you..
Man, I'm more of a packrat than you could ever hope to be. Once, I actually played the game with the express goal of stealing every single object placed in the ENTIRE CITY OF ATHKATLA. I'm not just talking about stuff in containers or on corpses, but on random nameless NPC's too. I actually succeeded too. I managed to kill, lie, cheat, and steal my way through every single character in the entire city (of course, this is only the ones that could be killed; non-killable characters I clearly left alone, after pickpocketing everything I could).

It took me two weeks real time to do. It was totally worth the ruined game. :smallbiggrin:


You know that you really wanted to hear that for ages, and you just never had the courage to be the one saying those words... :smallbiggrin:
...I have only one thing to say: NO. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Course I've played the Yoshi Friendship mod! Don't have it installed right now sadly, but then again, having more than thirty mods installed at any given time is sorta pushing your luck with the game. :smalltongue:

Philistine
2009-05-22, 10:35 AM
Stoneskin & Protection vs Magic weapon are your main concerns here, and I see your worries. Not to forget the Gate which makes a demon comes with True Sight (I hope you have a cloak of non-detection?)

Play around them like a cat and a mouse. Make them loose their spell slots, wait for their magical protection to wear off. It's cheesy tactic, but it's working nonetheless. Stoneskin dies after 20 hits, so you just have to keep hitting, and hitting, until his smooth pinkskin comes back.

Protection vs magical weapon is another matter. I hate that spell sooo much... Maybe a mage that has some breaching spells is available for you?

Yes, well. There was a... sub-thread? side discussion? whatever... about not taking a Mage along at all, and using FoA to disrupt enemy casters because of the elemental damage bypassing Stoneskin.

I usually wait until Ch 6 to start hunting liches, so that I can bring Imoen along as a backup mage. Enemy casters usually pop an Illusion spell - Imp Invis or Project Image - in the first round, so I have the party Cleric waiting on that with a True Seeing. As soon as the Illusion comes down, my wizards cut loose with their Spell Triggers: one'll be loaded up with Ruby Ray and Warding Whip, the other with Pierce Shield and Breach. Then the melee charge in, normally with Daystar and the Mace of Disruption leading the way, and start rocking his world before he can cast anything else. With a little luck, you can pretty well keep them from casting anything after the initial Illusion spell plus Contingencies.

Morty
2009-05-22, 10:37 AM
I usually wait until Ch 6 to start hunting liches, so that I can bring Imoen along as a backup mage. Enemy casters usually pop an Illusion spell - Imp Invis or Project Image - in the first round, so I have the party Cleric waiting on that with a True Seeing. As soon as the Illusion comes down, my wizards cut loose with their Spell Triggers: one'll be loaded up with Ruby Ray and Warding Whip, the other with Pierce Shield and Breach. Then the melee charge in, normally with Daystar and the Mace of Disruption leading the way, and start rocking his world before he can cast anything else. With a little luck, you can pretty well keep them from casting anything after the initial Illusion spell plus Contingencies.

I feel slightly ashamed now that despite playing a mage three times, I've never been much for precise planning. I just barged in and everything worked out more or less.

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-22, 10:40 AM
I feel slightly ashamed now that despite playing a mage three times, I've never been much for precise planning. I just barged in and everything worked out more or less.

That's because you never tried those high-difficulty rebalancing mods...

Never have I, to be honest...

Morty
2009-05-22, 10:45 AM
That's because you never tried those high-difficulty rebalancing mods...


Apparently. Although I might try them, because in fourth or so walkthrough everything somehow becomes too easy.

arguskos
2009-05-22, 10:48 AM
Yes, well. There was a... sub-thread? side discussion? whatever... about not taking a Mage along at all, and using FoA to disrupt enemy casters because of the elemental damage bypassing Stoneskin.

I usually wait until Ch 6 to start hunting liches, so that I can bring Imoen along as a backup mage. Enemy casters usually pop an Illusion spell - Imp Invis or Project Image - in the first round, so I have the party Cleric waiting on that with a True Seeing. As soon as the Illusion comes down, my wizards cut loose with their Spell Triggers: one'll be loaded up with Ruby Ray and Warding Whip, the other with Pierce Shield and Breach. Then the melee charge in, normally with Daystar and the Mace of Disruption leading the way, and start rocking his world before he can cast anything else. With a little luck, you can pretty well keep them from casting anything after the initial Illusion spell plus Contingencies.
Yuppers, that's the way. Of course, I like to start my mage killin' earlier than Chapter 6, but I'm also a glutton for punishment, so 'sall good.

Then again, with some of the Tactics mods, that doesn't work so well, since they have multiple layers of contingencies and spell protections. :smallannoyed: Still, it's all good. A nice complex back and forth mage battle is far more interesting in my opinion than a straight-up "hit it till it dies" fight.

Arang
2009-05-22, 10:56 AM
Yes, well. There was a... sub-thread? side discussion? whatever... about not taking a Mage along at all, and using FoA to disrupt enemy casters because of the elemental damage bypassing Stoneskin.



I ... what? This isn't remotely close to what I said. When you get FoA, early early in the game, the protections of enemy mages are often overcome by FoA but not necessarily by other weapons you might have available to you. Casters rule the world, which was part of another argument altogether.

Speaking of which, has anyone ever tried a solo Wild Mage? I've been looking at the class for the longest time.

bladedSmoke
2009-05-22, 11:12 AM
A good party to have if you're Evil is: You, Korgan, Viconia, Edwin, Jan, and Yoshimo/Imoen/Sarevok.

Yes, that's right: Jan. He's one of the only non-Evil PCs who won't leave you no matter how Evil you get.

Same goes for Yoshimo and Imoen, though Imoen will whine a lot, which is why I usually boot her out in favour of Sarevok.

Cruel and heartless, I know, but hey, I'm playing an Evil character, right? :smallwink:

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-22, 11:14 AM
A good party to have if you're Evil is: You, Korgan, Viconia, Edwin, Jan, and Yoshimo/Imoen/Sarevok.

Yes, that's right: Jan. He's one of the only non-Evil PCs who won't leave you no matter how Evil you get.

Same goes for Yoshimo and Imoen, though Imoen will whine a lot, which is why I usually boot her out in favour of Sarevok.

Cruel and heartless, I know, but hey, I'm playing an Evil character, right? :smallwink:

How about Fallen Anomen? How does he behave?

Philistine
2009-05-22, 11:16 AM
Yuppers, that's the way. Of course, I like to start my mage killin' earlier than Chapter 6, but I'm also a glutton for punishment, so 'sall good.

Then again, with some of the Tactics mods, that doesn't work so well, since they have multiple layers of contingencies and spell protections. :smallannoyed: Still, it's all good. A nice complex back and forth mage battle is far more interesting in my opinion than a straight-up "hit it till it dies" fight.
"Multiple layers of protection" is fine by me. All the defense-droppers in the combo above (except True Seeing) were pre-cast with Spell Trigger, so the casters still have their entire normal daily allottment of spells to batter down subsequent layers of defenses. Meanwhile, both Warding Whip and Pierce Shield leave nasty aftereffects on the target to soften it up for further zappings. :smallbiggrin:

As for "precise planning"... Well before the end of my first playthrough of SoA, I noticed that a lot of enemy casters used identical buff sequences at the start of combat. Like any routine, it can be exploited if you know it's coming.


EDIT:
I ... what? This isn't remotely close to what I said. When you get FoA, early early in the game, the protections of enemy mages are often overcome by FoA but not necessarily by other weapons you might have available to you. Casters rule the world, which was part of another argument altogether.
Sorry if I misunderstood you, but earlier in the thread someone else was saying he never bothered to bring a mage along in the party, and that FoA was the One Weapon to Rule Them All.

For busting Stoneskin, Breach is only a level 5 spell: Nalia, Edwin, or a PC mage should be able to cast it by the time you finish your first major quest in Act 2. And even earlier in the game you can load up a Minor Spell Trigger with multiple Magic Missiles: each individual missile counts as one hit toward the total number which Stoneskin protects against. Cheap perhaps, but effective.

arguskos
2009-05-22, 11:23 AM
Speaking of which, has anyone ever tried a solo Wild Mage? I've been looking at the class for the longest time.
Yes. Wild Mage is a fun fun FUN class (but don't bother with their special spells that involve wild surges, they aren't great). However, it does, about 1 in 50 times, invoke a wild surge when casting normally. This normally isn't an issue, except if solo and doing something relevant, like holding off a golem horde, and suddenly your Gate spell turned into pretty colors or something. Not a happy moment.

@Philistine:
Oh yes, that's why one must love the Whip and Piercings. :smallwink: Gotta love those handy handy debuff spells. :smallbiggrin:

I've actually been considering converting the myriad "specific dispels" into 3.5, since I think that dispelling is sort of a little-known tactic that players don't think to use much. Hmm, maybe I'll do that sometime this summer.

Winthur
2009-05-22, 12:15 PM
Yes. Wild Mage is a fun fun FUN class (but don't bother with their special spells that involve wild surges, they aren't great).

What the hell?
WROOOOOOOOONG! That first level spell "Nahal something something" that only Wild Mages get is one of the most overpowered spells in the game!
Think about it: it allows you to cast any spell in the game while expending only a 1st level slot. You just need to have that spell in the book. Which means that once you get your hands on any spell, you can simply cast it, no matter what level are you. Theoretically, you can cast Finger of Deaths and Horrid Wiltings around even if you are a 1st level Wild Mage with Nahal's. (Of course, you need to have those spells written).
Still, even the spell progression limitation isn't that bad, you at least won't have to wait until next levels to get your spells.
Expending a 1st level slot to cast Time Stop, Death Spell, Breach, or Cloudkill? YES PLEASE!
You just need to protect yourself from wild surges by using the protective spells, like the one you get on level 2. That will reduce your problems.


How about Fallen Anomen? How does he behave?

Like... a *bleep*. There's however a rather heartwarming moment if you're romancing with him (yes, you can still romance with him if you make him fall), but then again, he's annoying and provokes fights with Aerie and Keldorn.

In fact, the only time I briefly romanced with him (but he got knighted) was with my extremely gay character called Pegasus and some Ease of Use. :smallbiggrin: It was for laughs, and I never even went to Brynnlaw.


Cruel and heartless, I know, but hey, I'm playing an Evil character, right?

One time, I have:
-killed Aerie in her ogre form;
-left Jaheira in her cage;
-summoned a Gate in the middle of the city;
-Charmed the Slums dwellers and turned them against the Amn guardsmen, then against themselves;
-took all the characters who weren't in my party to my d'Arnise keep and turned them into stone so they would serve as ornaments;
-killed Adalon;
-fireballed a lot of peasants;

And in BG1, I have:
-invented a method to kill Gorion in Candlekeep;
-used Minsc to kill Dynaheir, left him in Nashkel, came back to gather him, and then I left him in the middle of collapsing Cloakwood Mines;
-sent Khalid and Jaheira all alone to the Ankheg's farm;
-murdered Skie with Eldoth, then I had Eldoth kill himself with his own darts;
-went on a rage of feminine variety and, along with Shar-Teel, made a literal MANslaughter :smallwink:
All in a day's work. Beat that :smallwink:

arguskos
2009-05-22, 12:24 PM
Nahal's Reckless Dweomer is good, yes, but the drawbacks are... severe. First, you have to actually memorize it, for whatever reason (Magic Missile, the only way to play at low levels, though Burning Hands is pretty tech as well). Second, you have to use the Chaos Shield spells, which don't give you any benefits but bonuses on your wild surge check. Third, you have to actually need to risk it all on a random chance of getting something good.

That together reads: last resort spell, for when everything's gone wrong, toss one out there cause it can't get much worse.

So yes, avoid like the plague. Of course, whenever I play a wild mage, I prepare one copy anyways, just in case. :smallwink:

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-22, 12:29 PM
That together reads: last resort spell, for when everything's gone wrong, toss one out there cause it can't get much worse.



I am currently playing Angband a lot, and never again will I try a "random" tactic, saying "It can't get worse"

Arang
2009-05-22, 12:33 PM
The worst thing I ever did was probably send in Yoshimo alone, specifically so that he would die after soaking up all the nastiest enemy spells. It worked, too.

arguskos
2009-05-22, 12:42 PM
I am currently playing Angband a lot, and never again will I try a "random" tactic, saying "It can't get worse"
That's why it's the last resort button, reasoning that if I have to use it, I'm going to reload anyways, might as well give it a try.

Concerning my most evil games, let's see...
-There was the thieving spree I mentioned earlier.
-I decided once I was going to play a VEEEERY evil necromancer and thief party in multiplayer. I spammed Death Spell, Finger of Death, Cloudkill, Death Fog, and Wail of the Banshee in public areas, then laid traps for the guards, laughed as they spawned into my party's killzones, and proceeded to slaughter every NPC in all three major towns (Athkatla, Trademeet, Innsvale).
-I did the above with Disintegrate and Flesh to Stone too. THAT was enjoyable. "Take this Harper hold! *Flesh to Stone*"
-I had a backstabbing spree in the Council of Six building once. There's nothing like backstabbing Tolgerias for x7 damage before you even talk to him. Gods I do like the Assassin kit.
-I spawned some liches (using the console) into several choice locations (Shadow Thieves Guild, Bodhi's layer, Copper Coronet, Council of Six Building). I made sure these ones had the contingencies that would cast Gate. :smallbiggrin:
-I used Gate in public. A lot.

I was mean.

Winthur
2009-05-22, 12:43 PM
Nahal's Reckless Dweomer is good, yes, but the drawbacks are... severe. First, you have to actually memorize it, for whatever reason (Magic Missile, the only way to play at low levels, though Burning Hands is pretty tech as well). Second, you have to use the Chaos Shield spells, which don't give you any benefits but bonuses on your wild surge check. Third, you have to actually need to risk it all on a random chance of getting something good.

The point is not to have gosu wild surges like Stoneskin on every party member, but to use your 1st level slots for more powerful spells. Sure, I always keep Magic Missiles memorized, but also, as a WM, more Nahals. (In BG1, I don't use Magic Missiles until I get powerful enough to conjure two Missiles in a single casting, preferring Grease and that spell that blinds your enemy, lowers his AC and Trak0. It's imba.) After all, you can use Nahal to conjure a mightier beatstick than Magic Missile.

Also, if my XP progression is low and I have some spells that I painfully would like to use but I can't, then that's what Nahal was created for.

What's wrong with "having to memorize it"? It's a spell. What's wrong with that? You will lose MM's? Tough luck, but I never expend them like crazy, preferring to nuke my tougher opponents or breaking concentration. As for Chaos Shields, I can't imagine a better use for Level 2 slots that I keep having an abundance of. (Glitterdust, Melf's Arrow and Web being the only spells worth their salt that I can remember)

arguskos
2009-05-22, 12:54 PM
It's just that there are better things at level 1, such as MM, Burning Hands, or Chromatic Orb. Nahal's is good... if you really have to chance it. I mean, yes, I do keep one prepared, for the off chance I'm out of good spells and need to risk getting a greater effect. Wild surges are just too damn likely to do something bad, like take your gold, fireball you in the face, hold your party, or fail to do anything at all. Yes, it CAN turn a level 1 slot into a Time Stop. It isn't likely to, even with Chaos Shield. Other spells at level 1 and 2 are at least solid enough to remain useful forever (MM, Web, Glitterdust all come to mind). The fewer I have to use on something that isn't a sure bet, the better.

But, this is just my preference. If you like it, use it. I'll stick to my more assured spells though.

Arang
2009-05-22, 01:03 PM
Wild surges get less dangerous if you stack your Chaos Shields in a Chain Contingency or Spell Trigger, though. At that point, you've just tripled your number of level 9 slots, which is useful.

bladedSmoke
2009-05-22, 06:29 PM
One time, I have:
-killed Aerie in her ogre form;
-left Jaheira in her cage;
-summoned a Gate in the middle of the city;
-Charmed the Slums dwellers and turned them against the Amn guardsmen, then against themselves;
-took all the characters who weren't in my party to my d'Arnise keep and turned them into stone so they would serve as ornaments;
-killed Adalon;
-fireballed a lot of peasants;

And in BG1, I have:
-invented a method to kill Gorion in Candlekeep;
-used Minsc to kill Dynaheir, left him in Nashkel, came back to gather him, and then I left him in the middle of collapsing Cloakwood Mines;
-sent Khalid and Jaheira all alone to the Ankheg's farm;
-murdered Skie with Eldoth, then I had Eldoth kill himself with his own darts;
-went on a rage of feminine variety and, along with Shar-Teel, made a literal MANslaughter :smallwink:
All in a day's work. Beat that :smallwink:

Under the save file name "PERSONAL GENOCIDE", I hunted down and killed every single NPC in the game, man, woman, and child.

Well... That was the plan. I got bored after an hour. :smallbiggrin:

It was very Evil in principle though.

Guancyto
2009-05-22, 07:06 PM
Wild surges get less dangerous if you stack your Chaos Shields in a Chain Contingency or Spell Trigger, though. At that point, you've just tripled your number of level 9 slots, which is useful.

Wait, Chaos Shields stack? I didn't know that!

...to the Wildmageobile!

Triaxx
2009-05-23, 06:22 AM
They don't. If you've got one active, you can't activate another.

Nahal's is very useful. For the cost of a level 1 slot, you can use any spell KNOWN. Not just the ones you've memorized. I don't even bother with the Chaos Shields. Those are wasted slots.

Arang
2009-05-23, 06:27 AM
Nono, if you have one active you can't cast another. They stack, you just have to trigger several at the same time. It's the same trick that lets you create four Projected Images.

arguskos
2009-05-23, 06:57 AM
Nono, if you have one active you can't cast another. They stack, you just have to trigger several at the same time. It's the same trick that lets you create four Projected Images.
I'm curious, if you have multiple Projected Images, what does that even DO? Do you cast through them all at once? If so... how does that work? Does it really multiply your spells like that?

On an unrelated note, I can't believe I've never realized one could do that before. I don't play about with the sequencers enough these days.

Triaxx
2009-05-23, 05:44 PM
Ah, so it's only conventional casting then.

Arguskos: It's like getting all your spells multiple times. And unlike Simulacrum, it doesn't cost spells.

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-23, 11:58 PM
To be honest, I always found tedious the process of having to cast again and again the sequencer.

arguskos
2009-05-24, 12:04 AM
Ah, so it's only conventional casting then.

Arguskos: It's like getting all your spells multiple times. And unlike Simulacrum, it doesn't cost spells.
That's fair. How, exactly, does one do it though? Spell Trigger, the most powerful sequencer, only does up to level 6 spells. Only Chain Contingency can do it, a rather powerful trick. Worth it I guess, but it seems there are better things to do with a CC. I'll have to give it a try though, see how it plays out. Might be good against Yaga-Shura.

Triaxx
2009-05-24, 06:01 AM
Memorize it multiple times. When one dies, you can just immediately cast another. Since it's what's using the spells, and you haven't used anything but Project image, it still has the full spell battery. I know Simulacrum will ignore summoning limits, but I don't recall if Project Image will.

Arang
2009-05-24, 06:41 AM
Project Image does ignore the summoning limit.

The trick is to put 3 instances of Project Image in a Chain Contingency and set the trigger to Caster Immobilized or whatever it's called. Then cast a normal Project Image, which will get you one, and the CC will trigger, giving you three more for a total of four of you. Then you can go bananas with summoning (especially Planetars and Devas), items and assorted other spells. The real fun begins when you get Improved Alacrity and Time Stop, letting you offload your entire arsenal pretty much unimpeded, four times in a row, after which, if you're really desperate, you recast the CC and then Wish for all your spells back for a total of 10 times your regular number of spells.

... yeah, casters get pretty ridiculous at higher levels.

arguskos
2009-05-24, 06:44 AM
Memorize it multiple times. When one dies, you can just immediately cast another. Since it's what's using the spells, and you haven't used anything but Project image, it still has the full spell battery. I know Simulacrum will ignore summoning limits, but I don't recall if Project Image will.
Oh, I was talking about the "get multiples at once" trick. Course I use Project Image on it's own! 's great! :smalltongue:

Did just use a Chain Contingency (3x Project Image) to do some really stupid stuff though. Nothing says "I want you to die" like three project images all casting Time Stop at once. :smallbiggrin:

Arang
2009-05-24, 09:24 AM
I'd forgotten how harsh the beginning of the game is, especially for mages, especially especially for solo mages, especially especially especially for solo Wild Mages. The wild surges are everywhere, though I'm fortunate enough so far to only get Caster Level Reduceds and not the HOLY CRAP A DEMON surges. Still, despite some ... struggles, like dying to the beastmaster, twice, things are going forward. Except I can't really think of a quest I'm strong enough to do yet. I'll have to do some creative leveling. Time to pull out the rememorization trick and doing some of the sundry quests.

Triaxx
2009-05-25, 07:59 AM
Which familiar have you got? If you went for the Ferret, then you can go to the city gates, talk to Flydian and then pick up the Ifriti Bottle and have a nice little combat companion. Don't forget to pickpocket Ribald either. With scroll of protection from undead you can take out the Lich in the Crooked Crane. That's some good XP for relatively minimal work.

Head to the graveyard and do the paladin quest and Littleman, plus you can start Tirdir's.

Lord of the Helms
2009-05-26, 02:37 AM
Which familiar have you got? If you went for the Ferret, then you can go to the city gates, talk to Flydian and then pick up the Ifriti Bottle and have a nice little combat companion. Don't forget to pickpocket Ribald either. With scroll of protection from undead you can take out the Lich in the Crooked Crane. That's some good XP for relatively minimal work.

Head to the graveyard and do the paladin quest and Littleman, plus you can start Tirdir's.

By the way, you can also take out the Lich with Polymorph Self into Mustard Jelly and a bit of patience. The Pit fiend is your only worry, and you usually get rid of it through the Lich's own Meteor Swarm. When he expended all his spells, toast him any way you like.

Triaxx
2009-05-26, 08:17 AM
I'd never thought of that. I usually only use it to wipe the floor with Cowled Wizards to save my 5000 gold.

Lord of the Helms
2009-05-26, 08:54 AM
I'd never thought of that. I usually only use it to wipe the floor with Cowled Wizards to save my 5000 gold.

That one, I never thought of myself - gold isn't much of an issue to me, and I prefer to simply pay them and spare me the troubles. But yeah, Mustard Jelly is the bane of enemy casters. I think I used it once or twice for the sake of trying it; otherwise, it's just too cheesy for my taste, and I'd only whip it out if I was really desperately failing at bringing down a casting enemy.

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-26, 10:15 AM
That one, I never thought of myself - gold isn't much of an issue to me, and I prefer to simply pay them and spare me the troubles. But yeah, Mustard Jelly is the bane of enemy casters. I think I used it once or twice for the sake of trying it; otherwise, it's just too cheesy for my taste, and I'd only whip it out if I was really desperately failing at bringing down a casting enemy.

I ALWAYS go for the Cowled Wizards. They are a good XP cow if you prepare correctly, and damned I will if I let other peoples tell me what I can do and not do! I am the Bhaalspawn! NOBODY RESTRAIN MY POWER! :smallfurious:

...

In the virtue Mod, would killing Cowled Wizard be "evil"? 'Cause... y'know, I still want to killem even if I am a paladin...

Cespenar
2009-05-26, 06:03 PM
On mage business, does anyone ever tries using Keldorn? His Dispel Magic ability is ridiculous, let me tell you that. Caster level as twice his paladin level? It makes all those "He casts something defensive, I cast Breach" rituals moot.

Triaxx
2009-05-26, 07:53 PM
'I'm in ur sight, dispellin' ur protections.'

Mustard Jelly is great for putting the smackdown on enemies who can't really hurt you. Conster, Edwin. All those evil mages.

Guancyto
2009-05-26, 07:56 PM
On mage business, does anyone ever tries using Keldorn? His Dispel Magic ability is ridiculous, let me tell you that. Caster level as twice his paladin level? It makes all those "He casts something defensive, I cast Breach" rituals moot.

Keldorn's great, in addition to being a serious badass.

You have to aim his dispels very carefully, though, or he'll dispel all of your buffs along with the other guy's protections.

Cespenar
2009-05-26, 11:24 PM
If you can't instantly calculate how 30' looks on your screen, then you're not playing Baldur's Gate enough. :smalltongue:

Saintheart
2009-05-28, 08:34 AM
Beeee doubly careful. I'm sure all manner of stupid mousetraps await our toooes in the dark.


...Sorry, just had to say that. Yoshi just gets some of the best "random" lines in the game.

Fun times if you decide not to put up with the whole betrayal thing and leave him behind before going to Spellhold. Don't know if it was a glitch, but when I got back to the Copper Coronet he always just up and died when I entered the room. Must've been the shock.

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-28, 10:10 AM
Fun times if you decide not to put up with the whole betrayal thing and leave him behind before going to Spellhold. Don't know if it was a glitch, but when I got back to the Copper Coronet he always just up and died when I entered the room. Must've been the shock.

It's not a glitch, he's supposed to die. But I find that explanation as good as any, and quite hilarious... :smallbiggrin:

Saintheart
2009-05-28, 10:10 PM
Actually, I also have a big confession to make: despite having played it several times, and fighting my way through BG II and ToB, I've never actually been able to defeat Amelissan. Part of it is because the AI Is A Cheating Bastard that raises the difficulty based on my party, but I'm pretty sure it's mostly due to ignorance. I never used a Contingency once throughout the campaign, and mostly played (IIRC) some fighter variant. My party by the end was made up of me, Minsc, Jaheira, Aerie, Nalia, and the last spot taken up by whoever's quest I was doing at the time (I think I had Sarevok in the last time...) It's been quite a while since I played it, but anyone got some protips for winning that last fight?

Also, I do remember one amusing cheese I used to win a couple of fights in the Watcher's Keep dungeon. One was against the six guardians, the other against Demogorgon itself. Technique was simple. Get my thiefly type to prepare multiple pit traps almost on top of one another where the guardians appear ... or as close as possible to Demogorgon's spawn point. Took me a good two days of resting and coming back and doing more, IIRC, but the results were well worth it. I challenged Demogorgon, he spawned ... and triggered off dozens of pit traps at once. My system slowed down so much I thought it was going to lock up, but then the traps resolved themselves, and hey presto, Demogorgon, dead. Easiest fight I had in the whole game :smallbiggrin:

Guancyto
2009-05-29, 12:50 AM
AI Is A Cheating Bastard that spawns more monsters based on my party level

I do not think it means what you think it means.

You don't have to use triple-cast chain contingency cheese to beat the final battle (except maybe on the highest difficulty, with Ascension, having recruited no extra allies).

And you can repeat that trick on Amelyssan. Take about six uses of Spike Trap/day, a wisdom-boosting item for Nalia and enough casts of Wish to restore your traps for all three of her resurgences. Lay them down, spawn her, profit.

From there, all you need to take care of is the demons by the pools.

Cespenar
2009-05-29, 06:05 AM
I don't understand why would anyone use that trap cheese or similar bugs at all (in a serious game, that is).

Saintheart
2009-05-29, 07:05 AM
Awesome userid.

"Uhh, Cespenar only serve the Great One. You is nice and all, but you is still a nobody." :smallbiggrin:

Al-Ashrad
2009-05-29, 07:17 AM
And you can repeat that trick on Amelyssan. Take about six uses of Spike Trap/day, a wisdom-boosting item for Nalia and enough casts of Wish to restore your traps for all three of her resurgences. Lay them down, spawn her, profit.

From there, all you need to take care of is the demons by the pools.

Actually, if your main character is a Thief (or a dual-classed Fighter who became a Thief), and if you keep selecting the "Trap" special abilities every time you level up (except for taking "Use Any Item" the first time it's available), you should have more than enough traps available to you in one day to take care of all three of your fights with Amellissan. You shouldn't need more than 6 traps (Pit or Exploding) and maybe one generic trap during any of the three "after-pool" fights with her.

Jan should also be able to get enough of those traps too if you keep selecting the various "Trap" special abilities.

After all, it's a Thief's World... everyone else is just living in it.

cnsvnc
2009-05-29, 08:46 AM
You don't have to use triple-cast chain contingency cheese to beat the final battle (except maybe on the highest difficulty, with Ascension, having recruited no extra allies).

Even in Ascension, all cheese you ever need is spike trap spam. And an Imp. Celestial Fury+Crom Faeyr wielding assasin with the reflection cloak activating his assasination ability.

Guancyto
2009-05-29, 11:31 AM
Another thing that seems obvious (but probably isn't): Rods of Resurrection are your best friend. To-hit by the end of ToB is high enough on everybody that basically everything is going to hit you, so aside from Hardiness, Heal and HP there's no real way to keep your fighty types from dying.

With RoRs and good timing, you can have them from dead to full in a couple of seconds.

Speaking of Heal, Aerie + Robe of Vecna = amazing.

Cespenar
2009-05-29, 02:24 PM
Awesome userid.

"Uhh, Cespenar only serve the Great One. You is nice and all, but you is still a nobody." :smallbiggrin:

:smallbiggrin:

A sure quote mine, that game is.


Speaking of Heal, Aerie + Robe of Vecna = amazing.

Robe of Vecna is a little game-breaking, in my opinion. At higher levels (mainly in ToB), reduced casting time makes sure that you get the first spell, and when that first spell happens to be Time Stop, it spells an almost guaranteed win.

My solo sorcerer blasted Irenicus in 1 round, thanks to that silly item.

arguskos
2009-05-29, 03:43 PM
Robe of Vecna is a little game-breaking, in my opinion. At higher levels (mainly in ToB), reduced casting time makes sure that you get the first spell, and when that first spell happens to be Time Stop, it spells an almost guaranteed win.

My solo sorcerer blasted Irenicus in 1 round, thanks to that silly item.
I dunno, the Robe is pretty essential sometimes, especially for solos. Look at the Yaga-Shura fight, for instance. A solo mage vs. Yaga Shura is pretty much screwed without some excellent aid/cheese, such as the Robe of Vecna.

Jeivar
2009-05-29, 05:32 PM
Could someone advice me on weapon selection in Baldur's Gate 2? I'm going to import my BG1 fighter as soon as I've sorted out an annoying glitch, and I need to know what specialties to give him. I've played BG2 before, just not with a fighter. What's the most practical weapon skill to throw 4-5 skill ranks into? What sword type is the most common to find with powerful enchantments?

Winthur
2009-05-29, 08:45 PM
-Long Swords, as always, are at least an okay option, because you get a magic long sword early on, and you can buy a rather cheap +3 long sword that also boosts your charisma. Compared to other weapons, they are rather subpar, though (Angurvadal stands out, but appears in Throne of Bhaal).
-Scimitars have low magical enchantments and are good mainly for Thieves and Bards (because they can use Scarlet Ninja-To after advancing to ToB levels).
-Katanas (Hindo's Bane and Fury of the Heavens) are awesome mid-game, but get kind of lackluster.
-Flails... well, should be called Fails, because the only powerful flail, AFAIK, is the Flail of the Ages. However, it's amongst the most powerful weapons in the game, so if you go one-handed (not recommended), you can give it a try, but it's better in a pair with other weapon (although wielding a flail with other weapon looks... funny.)
-Hammers are fun. Runehammer and Crom Faeyr (one of the best off-hand weapons ever) come to mind.
-Two-handed swords are great, but as a fighter you won't use Karsomir (but Karsomir is rather overrated, there's a better weapon combo for a Paladin). They're good, but you don't get the advantage of having an off-hand weapon, which comes... (dons sunglasses)... handy. (yeaaaah!) And they're rather slow. But there are plenty of them - Lilarcor, Silverblade (the one that decapitates the target), Warblade +4, Gram... good choice, but two-weapon fighting seems better for me.
-Ba$tard swords are good, but there aren't many of them. Leave them for Paladins, they're the best at using them (Purifier + Foebane).
-Axes high! (Axe of the Unyielding, in particular)
-Staves are lackluster but there's a Staff of the Ram in ToB.

So that depends. Basically if you're playing a Fighter, you should consider either a Kensai or a Berserker subclass. For a Berserker I'd take Axes and Hammers, with maybe a point or two in Long Swords or Flails (as a backup, 'cause early on there aren't many great Axes). Dual-wield Crom Faeyr and Axe of the Unyielding. As for Kensai, I'd say use Katanas & Scimitars, with Fury of the Heavens and Belm +2 in SoA and Sword of the Mask/Fury of the Heavens & that sword from Aesgareth in Watcher's Keep. Or you can go cheese and get Staves, you will be rather weak early on but a Staff of the Ram in the hands of a Kensai is just... wrong.

Trazoi
2009-05-29, 09:26 PM
To expand on Winthur's list, although my memory of specific weapons isn't that great:
Halberds: I seem to remember a bunch of good halberds in the game, possibly even more than the traditional 2-handed swords.
Spears: There's a few really good spears too. It's a good weapon specialty for Jaheria as a Fighter/Druid though, so if you're keeping her in your team you might want to give them all to her.
Bows of all types: There's plenty of brilliant short bows, and not many decent long bows or crossbows. If you want to specialise in a missile weapon, it's probably worth picking short bow over long bow.

Arang
2009-05-30, 06:47 AM
The best option for dual-wielding is Crom Faeyr and whatever else, probably Axe of Unyielding or Rune Hammer. For swords my favourite is getting Long Sword and Short Sword and Dual Wielding, then have whatever long sword and Kundane in the offhand for the extra attack, to be replaced with the Short Sword of Mask. If you can stomach the suckitude of scimitars, you can have Belm and Kundane for outrageous attacks per round, but it might be subpar in terms of pure damage.

Triaxx
2009-05-30, 06:56 AM
If you're going to use ranged weapons as well as hand to hand, you'll probably want two handed weapons. Unless you go axes, in which case there is a repeating throwing axe available, but... it's hard to get from it's current user.

Longswords are a pretty good choice, with 460gp getting you Daystar pretty quickly. Angdurval is alright, but there's also the Dragon Slayer, Flame Tongue is a good one as well. So is Ras the Dancing Blade. And Adjatha the Drinker, Namarra is also very handy early on. Not to mention Equalizer.

Spectral Brand and Hinjo's Doom are the two best Scimitar's in the game, bar none.

Cespenar
2009-05-30, 07:10 AM
Longswords were the most common form of magical weapons and artifacts, I believe.

Jeivar
2009-05-30, 07:34 AM
No love for weapon+shield? I planned to use my fighter as a tank.

Blayze
2009-05-30, 07:40 AM
Agreed, long swords are an excellent choice when it comes to weapons.

Arang
2009-05-30, 07:56 AM
No love for weapon+shield? I planned to use my fighter as a tank.

Ehh, I guess it's viable super early when you have only one dot in TWF and your armor and other weapons are crappy anyways. Later on you'll definitely want to maximize your attacks and damage and juicy side effects with some nice shields. Between all the bonus saves and protections and on-hit procs you might even end up more well-defended than you'd be with a shield.

Also, Flails aren't completely useless, thanks to the FoA and also to Defender of Easthaven. It's a godsend in ToB when you're getting mauled by sixty Fire Giants at the same time.

Jeivar
2009-05-30, 08:13 AM
Hmm. My party is going to consist of Jaheira (shield and scimitar or club), Anomen (Flail of Ages + shield), Yoshimo (to be replaced by Imoen), Nalia (short bow + katana (?), and Aerie (staff, probably). I guess I'll go with longsword + axe dual-wielding. Thanks for the advice.

Cespenar
2009-05-30, 08:26 AM
I wouldn't go dual-wielding unless the off hand weapon gives a passive bonus that's too good to pass (like Crom Faeyr's 25 strength).

Edit: Oh, and on shields and armors, choose additional resistances and immunities over physical AC bonuses.

Winthur
2009-05-30, 09:20 AM
I wouldn't go dual-wielding unless the off hand weapon gives a passive bonus that's too good to pass (like Crom Faeyr's 25 strength).

Why not? Several points of armor class aren't that much, those passive bonuses are usually huge compared to them, and even if not, an extra attack is still preferable. Besides, sword & shield specialization bonuses suck ass. I only use one one-handed weapon fightning with Thieves (but not Swashbucklers) early on, Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers and Mages.

Cespenar
2009-05-30, 12:18 PM
Good shields grant elemental resistances or status immunities. Those are more important than a single extra attack, which have more or less the same importance with a couple of AC bonuses.

Winthur
2009-05-30, 01:10 PM
Uh oh, two different playstyles clash! :smallsmile:

I personally don't see the big value of most of those shields. (checks Google for a list of them, see, I can't even bother remembering most of them)
Saving Grace +4 - a lot of AC and nothing else.
Balduran's Shield - subpar for everything except beholders, and in my first playthrough I bypassed it. And had a lot of fun with figuring out the right strategies against them.
Shield that grants +1 AC, +4 against missiles - well, the missile bonus isn't that much, considering there aren't many kickass archers foes in the game.
The harmony shield from Dao djinns that grants all the mind blank is replacable in my terms. Since I prefer either bigger beatsticks or more beatsticks, I'd stick with Lilarcor for mind blank (and later the Psionic Blade +5 or how is it called) or an off-hand Arbane's (AFAIK, freedom of movement protects against hold person effects) or simply buff myself up before the fight.
The shield that deflects arrows back at your opponent sounds neat but I prefer to be more beatsticky and deliver more damage with an off-hand weapon.
The shield from Strohm's grave that sets resistances up high sounds fun, but the enemies rarely use anything else than fire, so it's rather lackluster. If you want a kickass protection against fire, use the helmet from Firkraag's well and some Protection from Fire buffs.
Later on there are some shields, but they mostly give AC and the secondary bonuses are lackluster (+10% to magic resistance isn't cutting it. Same for 25% to all resists.)

I just find the fact that my dual-wielding character, with Belm or Fury of the Heavens off-hand, has an additional attack or a capability to stun & nuke his opponent's weak point for massive damage, much more fun. Or Crom Faeyr, with 25 strength that boosts Trak0 a lot, has the ability to OTK some monster types, and just packs a whallop all around.

Besides, dual-wielding looks more kickass. Looking kickass is important, especially if you grew up watching Xena: Warrior Princess.

Or Slayers. Gourry would be a lot less memorable without this huge glowy blade.

Cespenar
2009-05-30, 02:14 PM
It's not like a set-in-the-stone kind of deal, but I prefer that Harmony shield and the 25% elemental resistance thingy over an extra attack - most of the time. And Lilarcor is very useful but covers only one of the characters. I usually give Lilarcor to Minsc and go sword and shield with the rest. Except Sarevok, of course.

The things about extra attacks are, they max out at 5+1 and later get totally obsolete by the almighty Whirlwind Attack.

P.S. Admittedly, you're totally right about the kick-assness of dual wielding. But that's why Haer-Dalis and Valygar exist. :smallbiggrin:

Arang
2009-05-30, 03:22 PM
Dualwielding is never obsolete, because you can get 10 attacks per round with Improved Haste and enough attacks, and take ... the other Fighter HLAs.

Fine, I never did that. It's still useful to not have to use a Whirlwind Attack every round.

Cespenar
2009-05-30, 03:42 PM
I seem to recall that 5+1 was the very limit, even with Improved Haste.

Regardless, as I said, nothing is set in stone. Use what you feel comfortable with.

Arang
2009-05-30, 04:05 PM
All I know is, 5 is the actual limit for a single round. Whirlwind Attack actually sets your attacks to 5 before it splits the round into two mini-rounds, during one of which only WAers can attack.

Murdim
2009-05-30, 04:48 PM
All I know is, 5 is the actual limit for a single round. Whirlwind Attack actually sets your attacks to 5 before it splits the round into two mini-rounds, during one of which only WAers can attack.Hmmm... good to know, thank you. I never understood why my high-level warriors (with the "true grand mastery" tweak) didn't seem to get as much benefit from Improved Haste as my other fighting characters such as clerics, swashbucklers, blades...

Cespenar
2009-05-30, 06:31 PM
Heh, I didn't know the two mini rounds thing either. It's weird how the programmers have to find tricks around stuff that they themselves create.

Triaxx
2009-05-30, 09:15 PM
Shields eh? Let's see. +1,+4 is alright, but if you're facing archers, then you want the Fortress Shield +3, +7 vs. Missiles. Shield of Harmony is good to have, better if improved with Item Upgrades. Dragon Scale Shield is also a good choice for fighting... dragons!

Dual-weilding... Belm. Nothing says I hit you hard like an extra off-hand attack. Bala's Axe from BG1, Miscast magic on any caster it hits? More plz. Azuredge is a good one for early undead slaying, prior to finding the Mace of Disruption. Mauler's Arm is also good for similar reasons, prior to finding Crom Faeyr. Blackblood is good if you've got a point or two in clubs, especially fighting trolls, and later desert trolls. Gnasher is another good mage killer. And who could forget Storm Star? Ice Star is nice when fighting fire giants. Stilletto of Demarchess, and Lifegiver both have very nasty side effects. Dagger of the Star is particularly useful since the next attack might well count as a Backstab.

Saintheart
2009-06-01, 11:50 PM
Currently playing through BG2 and ToB with the "Dungeon B Gone" and "Unfinished Business" mods thrown in (much as it sounds intriguing, I don't really have enough time for "The Longer Road".) Might check in here with reports as I go. (Warning: teal deer ahead.)

Current party is me (LG human Kensai), Anomen, Keldorn, Nalia, Korgan, and Yoshimo. Combat lineup is Keldorn and Korgan, me and Anomen, Yoshimo and Nalia.

I'm in Chapter 2 at the moment and picking up quests left, right, and centre. (More specifics in due course). I've had Korgan, Keldorn and Nalia all whining about their individual quest items, and I've been delayed enough on one occasion that Nalia nicked off to de'Arnise keep a few days early. This is a pretty different party to the way I normally play in that I usually run with Minsc, Jaheira, Aerie (I'm a sucker for the romance storyline), Nalia and Yoshimo.

Measurable differences I've noted so far are that I've had to think (or have started thinking) a lot more tactically. Aerie is relatively weak as a caster, but she was a very handy arcane/divine backup for mass healing. I'm now down to Anomen for healing and Nalia for arcane spells, and the result is a fair bit more rest downtime between big battles. Also, Nalia's not too bright at this point in the game, and I'm losing a fair number of scrolls to "failed to copy spell to spellbook" events. On the other hand, I think Anomen is a big improvement over Jaheira, particularly in the tomb Korgan takes you to to recover the Book of Kaza; he turns undead a lot better, which makes the big fights in there manageable, and what he lacks in heal slots he makes up for in interesting choke-point holders like the Glyph of Warding and group protection like Protection from Evil 10'. Also, the lack of Magic Missile spawn that I generally used in previous games for arcane spellcasters has again forced me to think tactically, and it's turning out pretty fun.

Also, Korgan + Keldorn in place of Minsc at the moment is made of win. Korgan gets five slots in Axes right from the start, and I picked up a +3 Frostreaver in the de'Arnise Keep. I recently switched him to dual-wielding a +1 Warhammer in the off hand and the Frostreaver in the primary hand, and the guy is just ripping people new ones everywhere he walks. Doesn't break or get as easily mind-controlled as Minsc was, which often had me cursing and swearing at the screen in previous games. As for Keldorn: he might be an old guy, and might not be fast on his sword, but to compensate I've fitted him up with a long sword and a shield until he starts getting some decent proficiency slots. (Not sure whether to optimise him for Carsomyr at this stage). And his permanent free action effect is just a godsend, as you'll see.

Most tactical fight I've had thus far was probably against TorGal in the bottom of the de'Arnise keep. My old way of dealing with this fight was previously kick in the door and spam magic missiles and heal spells to outlast the three trolls down there. I did try that in this game twice ... to predictable results. No rod of resurrection at the time, so I reloaded on death of a single character. Did that twice before deciding to think tactically.

So: choke point tactics. Moved the party back about thirty feet or so, opened the door, had Anomen cast Glyph of Warding. It's a permanent effect, so time's not an issue. Formed up the party, had Anomen cast Protection from Evil 10', Barksin on the main character and Yoshimo, Aid on the main character (hey, I'm the protagonist, and I can't wear freakin' armour, so I get first dibs on magic... :D ). Nalia casts Stoneskin on herself, then Haste on everyone ... and then Web on the doorway. Yoshimo stands off with bows and fire/acid arrows, Nalia stands by, everyone else stands close on the edge of the Web effect.

In goes Keldorn to set off the encounter. Free Action means he walks through the webs like they weren't even there. Keldorn brings them charging through the doorway, where they get webbed up pretty quickly ... and set off the Glyph of Warding for damage. Yoshimo has a field day on arrows while Keldorn sets about smacking the living hell out of TorGal, though the troll keeps moving a bit, so for a lark I send the rest of the party in. Anomen casts Holy Smite on the area, creating further damage. Magic hits follow, TorGal goes down, giant trolls follow shortly thereafter. There was some damage on most people including the protagonist, but nobody died. Good little fight, and totally different to how I'd normally handle it. I like to think I handled it more like a dedicated D&D player would rather than just a buttonmashing gamer.

Interestingly, the protagonist is holding up a lot better than I thought he would. Normally I wouldn't play a Kensai because of the lack of clothes. :smallbiggrin: However, he got three stars in TWF from the start, which was nice, and katana and longsword proficiencies. Protective magic is working out rather well in this case.

Weak points at the moment are Yoshimo and Nalia, I think. Yoshi gets thumped a lot, and Nalia is just sucking badly on learning new spells.

Keldorn's pretty much cemented into the party now that I had him put his wife and her lover in prison for adultery :smallamused:, and I'll have to watch the party rep so Korgan doesn't go marching off with his axe or something, but I think this is a workable combination of people. This week I'm off to the Ruined Temple of Amaunator. Don't know if I'm up to smashing shadow dragons as yet, but this will be the acid test for young Anomen I think.

Dixieboy
2009-06-02, 04:10 AM
About the Kensai:

Try dualclassing him with a mage at level 9 :smallbiggrin:

Then use Katanas

you are now made of 90% win and 10% awesome.

Moonshadow
2009-06-02, 06:43 AM
...Oh god, I found a Mod that adds Xan into BG 2, and even gives you a romance/flirt pack :smallbiggrin:

Xan was always my favourite in BG 1 :)

Ozymandias
2009-06-02, 08:12 AM
About the Kensai:

Try dualclassing him with a mage at level 9 :smallbiggrin:

Then use Katanas

you are now made of 90% win and 10% awesome.

I spent a long time agonizing over whether to dual at level 9 or level 13.

I ended up at 13; I have to let Broken Korgan and Keldorn pick up some of the slack because it'll take forever to reactivate Kensai, but I hope it'll be worth it.

Triaxx
2009-06-02, 12:57 PM
Not if you do it smart. Go buy every scroll you can lay your hands on, hit 'Q' to quick save, and start reading them. Anything you already have, you can just remove from the list and relearn.

Arang
2009-06-02, 01:09 PM
Not if you do it smart. Go steal every scroll you can lay your hands on, hit 'Q' to quick save, and start reading them. Anything you already have, you can just remove from the list and relearn.

Fixed for not spending a hundred thousand gold on scrolls.

While you're at it, feel free to grab those Arrows of Dispelling and, well, everything that isn't nailed down. Any Thief with a couple of points in Pick Pocket, the gloves and a Potion of Master Thievery or three (steal some if you need to) should do the trick for pretty much everyone. Protip: Bernard is the hardest character to steal from.

Starbuck_II
2009-06-02, 01:11 PM
In the sewers "The Sword" Licarlor (can't spell it) makes him immine to Charm/dominate.
I always get Minsc that if he is in party.



Keldorn's pretty much cemented into the party now that I had him put his wife and her lover in prison for adultery :smallamused:,

You did that to Keldorn's family?
I never think to do that...usually I solve it peacefully. I might get around to do that next game.

Jeivar
2009-06-02, 05:17 PM
Oh, dear. I'm doing the Jaheira romance, because she's just one of my all-time favorite NPC's, and we just finished dealing with Galvarey. And now I've run into on-line comments about how having Throne of Bhaal installed causes the romance to eventually grind to a halt; That it causes Dermin (Jaheira's old Harper mentor) to not appear that third time with the death squad.

I do have Throne of Bhaal installed (I bought the box set with BG2+ToB), and I do remember running into some annoying bugs when I originally played the romance, but I also remember playing all the way through ToB without a hitch during one of my playthroughs. It's just been several years since those playthroughs, and I don't remember the details.

Can someone help me out here? Is there a specific fix-patch I can install, or will I have to start all over again if things go bad?

Wraith
2009-06-02, 05:57 PM
I had a similar problem, though it was vastly improved after I installed ToB. Any patches released to fx SoA are included, so Jaheira's Romance usually sorts itself out.

Failing that, the alternative involves making sure that you save your game before you expect a significant event (usually sleeping for the night after a plot-related fight, or going to meet an NPC to report a completed Plot Point) and using the CLUA Console to force her dialogues to appear in the right order if they are turning out incorrectly.

A google search for "Jaheira Romance Bug" took me straight to a list of her Variables as well as when they should be occuring. This is, however, unlikely to be necessary as I said. So long as you have all the expansions and latest updates it generally works out fine.

Jeivar
2009-06-02, 06:05 PM
A google search for "Jaheira Romance Bug" took me straight to a list of her Variables as well as when they should be occuring. This is, however, unlikely to be necessary as I said. So long as you have all the expansions and latest updates it generally works out fine.

Regarding the CluaConsole thing, would I then have to kick-start every single dialogue that way, or just the one that isn't happening?

Triaxx
2009-06-03, 01:48 PM
There's a Jaheira's Romance fix out there, and I think the Baldurdash patch does it as well.

Wraith
2009-06-03, 06:55 PM
Regarding the CluaConsole thing, would I then have to kick-start every single dialogue that way, or just the one that isn't happening?

As I said, I'm not offering a guarentee - I'm going on memories of something that happened 3 years ago, give or take :smalltongue: But as far as I know, only 2 or 3 of her 20-something scripts are affected, so if you sort them manually the rest *should* occur normally (assuming that the problem hasn't already been patched, of course).

Having said that, if you really wanted to you can use the CLUA Console and force all of her interactions to start on demand. I did that with Aerie, when I wanted to see her dialogue but really, really couldn't be bothered to put up with her whining while I played through over the netx 20 or so hours..... :smallbiggrin:

Lord of the Helms
2009-06-04, 01:27 AM
For those interested in all the weapons available: Gamebanshee's Baldur's Gate 2 site (http://gamebanshee.com/baldursgateii/) has a pretty good listing.

My general impression: By and large, it does not matter that much which ones you go with. Every weapon type has some really awesome high-end weapon and often two. Bows (short and long) are a bit of an exception, but there's still some pretty nifty ones there (Short Bow of Gesen and Heartseeker come to mind); ironically, the ToB ones are all rather eh. There is one enormously powerful crossbow, Firetooth, to make up for crossbow's inherent inferiority (one less attack per round). Firetooth actually allows you to make non-warriors like Jan competent secondary ranged combat characters due to its absurd THAC0 bonus (the "+2" from the endless firebolts stacks with any other bolts you use).

Edit: By the way, archers are a lot more dangerous in BG 1 with much more powerful arrows available. Among others, a hasted character with Arrows of Detonation is very, very deadly. I guess the reason they put so few of those in in BG2 is because, when you eventually can pull off 10 attacks in one round, 10 times 6d6 damage per round really would be complete and total overkill.

Which reminds me, I really want to go and play through with my Archer character. Death from afar! :smallcool:

Alternatively, I'm thinking Kensai/Thief - catching up works pretty quickly, and they should complement each other fairly well. Dunno if there's a cheesebomb waiting to happen with the Use Any Item skill, though.

FlyingScanian
2009-06-04, 02:24 AM
Dunno if there's a cheesebomb waiting to happen with the Use Any Item skill, though.

Yes. Yes there is. Specifically, armor (or at least, that is what I recall). Naturally, as a thief, you won't usually be carrying some plate mail or such, but things like elven chain, or that AC1 elven magical chain (can't remember its name)... you can be quite resilient, not to mention backstabbing and then actually survive what you didn't kill (at least survive long enough to run away or have your companions deal with it).

Moonshadow
2009-06-04, 03:58 AM
Ok, I'm planning to do a runthrough the complete game, using Tut so that I have kits in BG 1, and all the shiny graphics and what have you.

I was planning to go female elf NG Thief (probably Assassin), and once I hit BG 2, I Was gonna use Shadowkeeper to make me a Thief/Sorceror.

I'm just not sure whether I should Min/Max at the start of the game towards Int/Dex, or go with a more even spread.

Also, what weapons? I was planning to use Short Swords/Short Bows/SWF. Game plan was either hide in shadows, or go invisible, backstab, then fall back and shot them full of web arrows.

FlyingScanian
2009-06-04, 07:27 AM
I was planning to go female elf NG Thief (probably Assassin), and once I hit BG 2, I Was gonna use Shadowkeeper to make me a Thief/Sorceror.

There might be a problem with this, specificaly that I don't think it's possible to do a thief/sorceror even with shadowkeeper... Thief/mage, on the other hand, appears to be moderately common...


I'm just not sure whether I should Min/Max at the start of the game towards Int/Dex, or go with a more even spread.

If it works with Sorceror, there is realy no need for intelligence, since it seems that sorcerors don't have any "casting stat", which means that you're free to have any stats you want (after that 19 DEX :smallwink: ).


Also, what weapons? I was planning to use Short Swords/Short Bows/SWF. Game plan was either hide in shadows, or go invisible, backstab, then fall back and shot them full of web arrows.

Sounds like a good plan with weapon choices. However, being a thief/[magician] means that your THAC0 will be moderately low (might even be abyssmal)... You'd better get a pair of boots of speed.


It was some time ago that I looked at these things, so I might ahve a few things wrong, but I don't think so... just don't take this post like your favourite religious script.

Lord of the Helms
2009-06-04, 12:22 PM
Yes. Yes there is. Specifically, armor (or at least, that is what I recall). Naturally, as a thief, you won't usually be carrying some plate mail or such, but things like elven chain, or that AC1 elven magical chain (can't remember its name)... you can be quite resilient, not to mention backstabbing and then actually survive what you didn't kill (at least survive long enough to run away or have your companions deal with it).

Bladesinger's Chain, I believe. And yeah, that is, admittedly, as cheesy as expected. So use any item gets you around pretty much any restrictions on item use. Hooboy. Dunno if I would actually want to exploit that :smalltongue:

mangosta71
2009-06-04, 12:44 PM
There might be a problem with this, specificaly that I don't think it's possible to do a thief/sorceror even with shadowkeeper... Thief/mage, on the other hand, appears to be moderately common...

If you dual class thief/wizard, you might be able to switch the wizard to sorcerer through Shadowkeeper. I assume that's his goal. I don't remember being able to do that, though. I wanted Imoen to be a sorc, but I'm pretty sure I lost her thief levels when I switched her and had to tinker with Nalia to make up the difference.


Bladesinger's Chain, I believe. And yeah, that is, admittedly, as cheesy as expected. So use any item gets you around pretty much any restrictions on item use. Hooboy. Dunno if I would actually want to exploit that :smalltongue:

Just once, you have to use Carsomyr for a backstab. For the lulz.

Arang
2009-06-04, 01:36 PM
Carsomyr? I laugh snidely in your general direction! Staff of the Ram +6 is where it's at! (1D6+12+1D4+whatever the strength bonus is)*7=WTFOMGBBQ damage.

cnsvnc
2009-06-04, 02:04 PM
You are aware that you can't backstab with staves? Staff of the Magi would trump all for the sheer convenience of backbeating if you could.

SolkaTruesilver
2009-06-04, 02:45 PM
You are aware that you can't backstab with staves? Staff of the Magi would trump all for the sheer convenience of backbeating if you could.

yup. So instead, just go with dual-weilding Crom-Fayger and a nice sword, like Sword of Mask. Put the hammer in off-hand, and backstab with the sword. The strenght bonus transfer just nicely with a x7 multiplier...

More gold than even 3.5 :smallbiggrin:

FlyingScanian
2009-06-04, 03:40 PM
yup. So instead, just go with dual-weilding Crom-Fayger and a nice sword, like Sword of Mask. Put the hammer in off-hand, and backstab with the sword. The strenght bonus transfer just nicely with a x7 multiplier...

More gold than even 3.5 :smallbiggrin:

You might run into a nice penalty there for dualwielding without sufficient profiency, though. Unless you Shadowkeep it, of course. Note the word might.

Wraith
2009-06-04, 04:39 PM
A simple -4 to hit for an offhand weapon isn't really much of a penalty by the time you get the Sword of Mask, which is usually well into Epic levels. Since you can find a piece of equipment that sets your DEX to 19 within the first few hours of SoA as well... :smalltongue:

Anyway, you guys have done it - I've decided that I simply must go back and revel in this wonderful game AGAIN. I'm thinking Human Thief (Assassin) just for a change, since I usually solo most of the game with a 7 Fighter/X Druid or an Epic Level Sorcerer. I'm thinking Assassin/ Viconia/ Edwin/ Imoen for definite, with Jan filling in for Imoen beforewe go to Spellhold but I'm not sure who'll be my 6th. I'm toying with the idea of Mazzy or Cend, since I never take them usually - thoughts?

arguskos
2009-06-04, 04:43 PM
Cernd! CERND!!! I love druidic magic, I like his banters, and he turns into a werewolf! It's pretty awesome.

Also, if you've never taken Cernd, you do need to. Oh, and Haer'Dalis if you haven't taken him either. :smallwink:

Guancyto
2009-06-04, 04:48 PM
Mazzy! No questions asked. Cernd is nifty and definitely a good choice if you need a divine caster, but it's hard to compare to Mazzy.

<3

Ozymandias
2009-06-04, 07:00 PM
Kensai are broken. Seriously. Not even just Kensai/Mage or Kensai/Thief, and not even just because the name is a mistranslation of kensei.

The primary disadvantage of a kensai is that they can't use armor, right? The best armors lower your AC to ~0 to -1, from what I've played so far (Plate of Balduran). So that seems like a pretty severe disadvantage; Kensai can't use bracers, so their AC should be even worse than mages, right?

Except for Spirit Armor. Ten minutes real time means it will basically never run out if you keep resting. Fourth level spell, and not caster restricted, so you can have Aerie or Edwin or Imoen cast it on you without even blinking. So you're basically a fighter without the AC from armor except you still HAVE the AC of armor PLUS the kensai bonus.

Unrelated note: To be honest, waiting until level 13 to dual to mage isn't worth it, in my opinion. If you work really hard and solo some of the earlier parts of the game, you can reactivate it around Spellhold, maybe. If you want to be extremely powerful early and very powerful late, dual at 9. If you want to be very powerful early and extremely powerful late, go F/M, or Assassin or something.

Another unrelated note: F/M/T is really, really fun to solo with. E.G, for enemy mages:

Improved Invisibility+Fighter ThAC0+19 Str Dual Wielded Grandmastery Longswords+Backstab modifier.

Contingency Stoneskin? Only if it's activate upon being eviscerated to death in 1 round.

I would honestly play the game with a F/M/T solo over a full party except that I really like the characters. Sharing EXP is such a hassle.

Third unrelated note: I like longswords a lot more than Katana. Dak'kons Zerth Blade is both pricey (the Robe of Vecna and Shield of Balduran, not to mention Ribald's Girdle are higher up on my to-buy list, as well as the Mauler's Arm, etc.) and not especially good; it's only +2, and the spell slots aren't really needed because you buff+whack, not shoot a ton of magic missiles or whatever. Celestial Fury is obviously quite nice, but I prefer consistent damage rather than chancy, and it's quite hard to get unless you abuse the stair luring trick.

On the other hand, the game throws tons of good longswords at you; Adjatha is as good as Lilarcor and 95% less annoying, plus it drains health, and isn't that hard to get. The Blade of Roses is less than 1/3 the price of Dak'kon's blade, and it's +3, which means you can waste golems without having to use proficiency points on flails or warhammers (although obviously warhammers are generally better than either longswords or katana for late-game). Eventually, you get Angurvadal, which is like a lesser Crom Faeyr that actually does significant damage on its own. Plus, you get a bunch of neat specific weapons like Blackrazor, The Answerer, Dragon Slayer, Daystar, etc.

Trazoi
2009-06-04, 07:14 PM
Mazzy! No questions asked. Cernd is nifty and definitely a good choice if you need a divine caster, but it's hard to compare to Mazzy.

<3
I second Mazzy - one of my favourite characters in the game. Besides which, you don't have any frontline warriors in your team yet. As she's a fighter, if you find Mazzy early in the game you can retool her to use any weapon you wish.

Triaxx
2009-06-04, 08:18 PM
Two things: Mazzy pwns all the other n00bs, except Minsc.

You can backstab with staves. Any weapon a single class, level 1 thief can use, which means that NOT with Two-handed swords, but WITH the Staff of Ram +6. Now say it with me. SMITE BUTTON.

Cespenar
2009-06-05, 04:20 AM
Heh, I've tried the solo F/M/T thing as well, thinking it would be rather weak, but it came out surprisingly strong.

On the subject, what would you consider as the weakest class/kit?

Moonshadow
2009-06-05, 06:57 AM
Bugger, Shadowkeeper can't make Sorc/Thief :smallfrown: I can only do class combos that the game itself allows, and I can only have 1 kit per multi T_T

Oh well, I shall have to think about this. Maybe a Kensai/Mage/Thief, or a Wild Mage/Thief or something.

REQUIRES MUCHO THOUGHTO

Blayze
2009-06-05, 07:46 AM
Oh well, I shall have to think about this. Maybe a Kensai/Mage/Thief, or a Wild Mage/Thief or something.

The easiest way to do that -- although this method only works with NPCs -- is to download the Level 1 NPCs mod. Not only does it let you change NPC classes, it also lets you change them to some illegal combinations.

For example, since the Barbarian is treated as a Fighter kit... yep. Barbarian/Thief. Barbarian/Mage.

Want a Cleric/Thief? No problem. Do you want the Cleric class or the Thief class to have the kit? No problem. Just pick from the full list.

What about turning Jan Jansen into a Kensai/Mage/Thief?

Done, done and done.

Moonshadow
2009-06-05, 07:57 AM
Nah, I can Shadowkeeper a multi class and give one class a kit, thats easy done.

Well, I play to run through BG 1 with PC(Stealth Assasin), Imoen (Locks and traps), Kivan (Archer-type Ranger), Xan (The Awesome), and then either Viconia/Branwen and Kagain/Ajantis.

I think I might end up getting Viconia, just to see the amusing dialogue that happens between her, Xan and Kivan :smallbiggrin:

mangosta71
2009-06-05, 10:02 AM
Carsomyr? I laugh snidely in your general direction! Staff of the Ram +6 is where it's at! (1D6+12+1D4+whatever the strength bonus is)*7=WTFOMGBBQ damage.

I was referring to the irony of using a paladin (honorable warrior) weapon in the most dishonorable way possible. Forgot that you can't pull a backstab with a two-handed sword though.

Speaking of which, I find it appropriate to Shadowkeeper Mazzy into a paladin. Though if you want to cheese it up, you can wait to do that until after you've put 5 points into your chosen weapon.

Winthur
2009-06-05, 10:11 AM
You are aware that you can't backstab with staves?

OBJECTION! (I wanted to say that for a while now :smalltongue: )
*pulls out evidence from Court Record* (http://people.umass.edu/phil335/nr/nimbul2.jpg)
In fact, the greatest damage record I've seen in Baldur's Gate 1 was pulled off by this guy with a staff.
Maybe that was changed in BG2, though...



Carsomyr? I laugh snidely in your general direction! Staff of the Ram +6 is where it's at! (1D6+12+1D4+whatever the strength bonus is)*7=WTFOMGBBQ damage.

Carsomyr isn't even the best use of Paladin's skills, you are better off using Purifier and some other powerful sword in your second hand. (plus, much cooler.)


Keldorn's pretty much cemented into the party now that I had him put his wife and her lover in prison for adultery ,

Wow, you're a jerk. How could you do that to the coolest good NPC in the game?

Mazzy vs Cernd... I think I failed at using Cernd, he wasn't really useful, but maybe it's just me. Mazzy, on the other hand, with ***** in Short Bows and Gesen's bow is just awesome.

Blayze
2009-06-05, 09:14 PM
Nah, I can Shadowkeeper a multi class and give one class a kit, thats easy done.

Well, I play to run through BG 1 with PC(Stealth Assasin), Imoen (Locks and traps), Kivan (Archer-type Ranger), Xan (The Awesome), and then either Viconia/Branwen and Kagain/Ajantis.

I think I might end up getting Viconia, just to see the amusing dialogue that happens between her, Xan and Kivan :smallbiggrin:

Yes, but the Level 1 NPCs mod sets them to Level 1 but retains their XP values -- so not only can you spend their points how you want, they also gain all the proper class/kit abilities from the first level onwards.

Moonshadow
2009-06-08, 03:57 AM
...Bwahahaha, I picked a really entertaining party to travel with, methinks.

Ajantis and Xan are always bitching about each others natures, Kivan, Xan and Viconia have their arguements, and Xan is mah buddy :D


I love the banter mod, its hilarious :smallsmile:

Triaxx
2009-06-08, 05:41 AM
Cernd is 'okay'. To be great, he requires some careful planning and set up work. Mazzy just get's buffed like the other fighters and goes from Great, to AWESOME.

Saintheart
2009-06-08, 07:54 AM
Brief update... presently in the Planar Sphere with Valygar traded in for Yoshimo. Otherwise party's still the same. In there I've been using doorslam tactics and the Web + Keldorn + four Glyphs of Warding on the door strategy, and it's rendered the halfling fights rather amusing to say the least.

Amaunator's temple ruins were pretty simple -- Anomen just kept turning everything that came across my path, so shadows didn't present a problem. Shade Lord was pretty straightforward, too -- haste up, protect from evil, stoneskin the protagonist, and the Korgan/Keldorn tag team took him to pieces in under three rounds.

I have resorted to a little cheating: raised protagonist's INT to get him beyond Dual Class minimum (well, he is the child of a god), and used the infinite rogue stones cheat to get myself some proper cash. :D

Shadow Dragon took a few tries (killed a lot of party members) before I resorted back to spamming skull traps and Yoshimo's snares. I rationalise this trick in this case by saying the dragon has been sleeping for several hundred years and consequently doesn't know the ins and outs of these newfangled Skull Trap spells. Results good ... well, almost. Fighters didn't lay a glove on Thaxy. Nalia did die during that one, so I used up a RoR charge for her. (Either that or no XP from the fight - her skull traps were what killed the dragon.

So it's now off out of the Sphere and into demonslaying.

Incidentally, I've been having dramas with trying to get the Slaver quest activated because Lehtinan (and sometimes Bernard) are perpetually ignoring me. No, seriously. I suspect it's because I've got too many quests going at the moment, but we'll see how things pan out after the Sphere storyline resolves itself...

Wraith
2009-06-08, 08:23 AM
That sounds familiar. "This Character is busy, and cannot speak with you now" sort of message for Bernard and Lehtinan?

That's nothing to do with your quests, it's another bonafide bug. There is a patch for it, though I've found that saving, exiting and reloading usually fixes it also.

It's a real pain in the neck when it happens to a character that is scripted to come and speak to you, like the messenger that informs Anomen about his sister. Being chased across the map being told "This person can't talk to you!" every 2 paces was not amusing.... :smalltongue:

Good going with the Dragon, though - I don't think I've ever managed to kill it without Skull Traps, except for one time I forgot to turn off the Party AI and Viconia 'accidentally' landed "Harm" on him.
That was almost as funny as the time I spent 10 minutes buffing up to fight the son of the Bhaalspawn/Dragon in ToB, only for my PC Sorcerer to 'accidentally' land "Disintegrate" in the first round and miraculously beat his Spell Resistence AND Saves! :smallbiggrin:

Ozymandias
2009-06-08, 11:04 AM
Brief update... presently in the Planar Sphere with Valygar traded in for Yoshimo. Otherwise party's still the same. In there I've been using doorslam tactics and the Web + Keldorn + four Glyphs of Warding on the door strategy, and it's rendered the halfling fights rather amusing to say the least.

Amaunator's temple ruins were pretty simple -- Anomen just kept turning everything that came across my path, so shadows didn't present a problem. Shade Lord was pretty straightforward, too -- haste up, protect from evil, stoneskin the protagonist, and the Korgan/Keldorn tag team took him to pieces in under three rounds.

I have resorted to a little cheating: raised protagonist's INT to get him beyond Dual Class minimum (well, he is the child of a god), and used the infinite rogue stones cheat to get myself some proper cash. :D

Shadow Dragon took a few tries (killed a lot of party members) before I resorted back to spamming skull traps and Yoshimo's snares. I rationalise this trick in this case by saying the dragon has been sleeping for several hundred years and consequently doesn't know the ins and outs of these newfangled Skull Trap spells. Results good ... well, almost. Fighters didn't lay a glove on Thaxy. Nalia did die during that one, so I used up a RoR charge for her. (Either that or no XP from the fight - her skull traps were what killed the dragon.

Turn Undead is beastly. It's especially useful because it lets you avoid getting swarmed by vampires in Firkraag's quest (as you probably don't have the amulet of power at that point), and even moreso because you are eventually able to turn liches, which are probably the most annoying enemies in the game (Breach Immunity! Time Stop! Imprisonment!).

Also, kill exp is shared throughout the party, not based on the person who killed or did damage to the creature in question.


Incidentally, I've been having dramas with trying to get the Slaver quest activated because Lehtinan (and sometimes Bernard) are perpetually ignoring me. No, seriously. I suspect it's because I've got too many quests going at the moment, but we'll see how things pan out after the Sphere storyline resolves itself...

As mentioned, the newest patch (Here for SoA (http://www.bioware.com/games/shadows_amn/support/patches/) and here (http://www.bioware.com/games/shadows_amn/support/patches/) for ToB) fixes the "too busy" dialogue. Alternatively, for that particular instance, you can just kill Lehtinan with, IIRC, no repercussions.

mangosta71
2009-06-08, 12:18 PM
Also, kill exp is shared throughout the party, not based on the person who killed or did damage to the creature in question.

Dead characters don't get a share in the XP, which is what he was avoiding.

Something fun to do if you have ToB is run through Watcher's Keep before you go into Bohdi's lair. Your cleric after that place will be powerful enough to vaporize vampires.

Philistine
2009-06-08, 12:42 PM
Hmmm. I think the only fight I ever used Skull Trap Cheese to beat was the Guardians of the Seal in Watchers' Keep - 2 mages' worth of Skull Traps and DB Fireballs at the spawn points really helped soften those guys up. I found all the dragons in the game beatable by more conventional means - even the AoE-level-draining Shadow Dragon (for that fight, it really helps if you can get Negative Plane Protection on at least one or two party members).

Cespenar
2009-06-08, 12:58 PM
I don't know why but Anomen always seem to be a few levels ahead of the group average. It may be because of class-specific experience tables, but the result is always fun to watch.

Lich starts to cast Time Stop. Anomen turns undead. Lich blows up. Party gains experience. :smallbiggrin:

cnsvnc
2009-06-08, 01:47 PM
Pity the lich that thinks all the protective spells in the game can protect it from the Mace of Disruption...

Wraith
2009-06-08, 02:34 PM
I don't know why but Anomen always seem to be a few levels ahead of the group average. It may be because of class-specific experience tables, but the result is always fun to watch.

Lich starts to cast Time Stop. Anomen turns undead. Lich blows up. Party gains experience. :smallbiggrin:

I suspect that is also down to the fact that he is also Dual Classing.

Getting from levels 1 to 7 takes as much experience as it does getting from 7 to 8. By the time you meet Anomen at level 8 or 9, he technically has the advancements for 14 levels.
At lower levels this is awesome, because he is literally as good as two characters rolled into one, and at higher levels he's a Cleric and therefore riduclously powerful even if he didn't have a few extra Hit Points, Increased THAC0 and additional attack :smalltongue:

It really has become a strain to play as a human and not do it, for me. The benefits are so great, and the penalty is non-existant, since Irenicus' Dungeon quite usefully gives you just enough experience to hit Level 8 and Get Your Dual On. :smallbiggrin:

Lord of the Helms
2009-06-08, 08:51 PM
Hmm. Don't think I ever had to use much in the way of cheese for the shadow dragon. Just buff my party with all standard stuff plus negative plane protection, cast a couple of resistance-lowering and protection-removing spells early on, and hack away. Once your fighters can hurt them, even dragons don't last long.

Guancyto
2009-06-08, 10:18 PM
Protection from <Damage Type> is always a big plus, as are summons. Of note: the Shadow Dragon hits the first summon to approach him with a death spell, but not any of the following ones.

Summons are pretty much your best bet against all tough fights in the Baldur's Gate series, really. Every hit a summon takes is one you don't have to heal!

Trazoi
2009-06-08, 10:26 PM
Summons are pretty much your best bet against all tough fights in the Baldur's Gate series, really. Every hit a summon takes is one you don't have to heal!
Summons make great fodder for all those tough characters that like to spam death spells at you. They tend to use those first, so I would keep sending in low level summons until they ran out.

For dragons with my sorcerer PC, if you lower their spell resistances and saves with a few spells they're pretty easy to defeat with magic. Heck, at high levels you can bring them down with Chromatic Orbs that way.

Al-Ashrad
2009-06-09, 09:28 AM
Lich starts to cast Time Stop. Anomen turns undead. Lich blows up. Party gains experience. :smallbiggrin:

What's real fun is to have Anomen start turning undead before you walk into Deirex' Tower in Ust' Natha. Deirex usually blows up during the initial "plot hammer" movie where he is supposed to be inadvertantly sending you to Jarlaxle. :smallbiggrin:

Cespenar
2009-06-09, 10:05 AM
What's real fun is to have Anomen start turning undead before you walk into Deirex' Tower in Ust' Natha. Deirex usually blows up during the initial "plot hammer" movie where he is supposed to be inadvertantly sending you to Jarlaxle. :smallbiggrin:

Hah, didn't know that. Nice. :smallbiggrin:

Saintheart
2009-06-14, 06:47 AM
Quest continues. Still on Chapter Two, of course; want to be nice and terrifying before I start poking around in the tombs against Bodhi.

I went and thumped a peasant and a mad prophet in the temple district, so my rep dropped by 7 (was getting dangerously high at 16). As a result my quests for the Noble Order of the Radiant Heart have been suspended (Sir Ryan Trawl won't talk to me at all.) Feeling a little persona non grata in Athkatla, I took the crew south to Watcher's Keep ... after stopping by the locked compound to pick up the Celestial Fury. Dual wielding that with the Zerth Blade and the Sword of Balduran as the backup.

Jesusmaryandjoseph. Now I get why you guys like the Fury of the Heavens so much; on a good probability, it's basically a fighter's Time Stop spell for a single opponent. It's making a huge difference already. The protagonist isn't strong enough yet to start soloing dungeons, but against most foes bar major bosses he's a tornado of destruction.

I pushed through Watcher's Keep far enough to pick up the Purifier in the Demon Maze, but from there the party was tending to get slaughtered against the succubi down there, so I headed back out for the Windspear Hills and I've decided to take on Jierdan Firkraag. Annoyingly, Keldorn hasn't come up with a selectable proficiency slot to make him not suck with a bastard sword, but I'll persevere.

The experience thus far has been fun. Anomen might not be powerful enough yet to blow up vampires, but he's rendered shadow fiend random encounters a joke, and he turns Greater Wraiths. He's got enough spell slots to cast 2 x False Dawn or 2 x Bolt of Glory, so I just need to get his friends a little more powerful before I go back into Watcher's Keep. Everything in Jierdan's little cave has been a walkover thus far, including the Adamantine Golem which was just about wearing him down over time. Nothing else has lasted more than about, say, seven rounds once I hit melee with that opponent.

I'm torn on the Robe of Vecna. At the moment it's on the protagonist, but it seems it might be better used on Nalia, who's invariably a back line character...any thoughts?

Winthur
2009-06-14, 07:25 AM
I'm torn on the Robe of Vecna. At the moment it's on the protagonist, but it seems it might be better used on Nalia, who's invariably a back line character...any thoughts?

I'm assuming you're playing a Magic&Sword character, right? Is it Kensai/Mage or Blade? I'm assuming you're playing a Blade:
Vecna seems more suited for your artillery mages, so I'd go with that. If you're a Blade, you might use one of the elven chainmails that turn up later (throughout the Underdark there is this awesome adamantitium armor).
From Nizidramanii'yt, the evil dragon at Suldanesselar, you can loot a nice armor (and get it significantly upgraded by Cespenar).

For Kensai/Mage, I'd possibly stick with Vecna...

FlyingScanian
2009-06-14, 10:05 AM
I'm assuming you're playing a Magic&Sword character, right? Is it Kensai/Mage or Blade? I'm assuming you're playing a Blade:
Vecna seems more suited for your artillery mages, so I'd go with that. If you're a Blade, you might use one of the elven chainmails that turn up later (throughout the Underdark there is this awesome adamantitium armor).
From Nizidramanii'yt, the evil dragon at Suldanesselar, you can loot a nice armor (and get it significantly upgraded by Cespenar).

For Kensai/Mage, I'd possibly stick with Vecna...

I'd say Robe of Vecna is always preferable on a backup mage... I guess it's a personal preference, using Melf's Acid Arrows againste verything, now with a casting time of "now!" and allowing you to bombard nasty critters while the hardhitters clear up their hangarounds...

But then again, I have yet to try a kensage (thouhg I've played an elven fighter/mage, equiped with elven chainmail)

Winthur
2009-06-14, 02:01 PM
Well, with Vecna, you can Time Stop on a "snack!" and just keep pounding on your enemy until he stops moving (especially if you buff before battle). Your backup mages are backup - for things you wouldn't do yourself or don't have spell slots for - blasting, dispelling, etc. That's how I see it, but I'm not an expert.

Triaxx
2009-06-15, 05:59 PM
I prefer Shadow Dragon Scale on my Blades, but since he's using the Robe of Vecna, he must have a Fighter/Mage combo. Robe of the (blank) Archmagi is probably a better choice for armor, due to it's magic resistance, and then let the primary caster have the Robe of Vecna.

I personally also prefer Usuno's blade over the Zerth blade. Less spells, more less resisted electrical damage.

Starbuck_II
2009-06-16, 03:06 PM
I've killed every golem in the Starter Dungeon but Sewer Golem (i've dealt 40 damage to him). Is the sewer golem immortal?

arguskos
2009-06-16, 03:11 PM
I've killed every golem in the Starter Dungeon but Sewer Golem (i've dealt 40 damage to him). Is the sewer golem immortal?
Not sure. I didn't think it was, but it might be, since it is plot relevant. It probably has a plot shield preventing you from killing it. :smallannoyed:

mangosta71
2009-06-16, 03:22 PM
I prefer Shadow Dragon Scale on my Blades...

I prefer to turn Jaheira into an Avenger and give her the shadow dragon scale. Mmm, Jaheira in black leather...

Starbuck_II
2009-06-16, 03:26 PM
Not sure. I didn't think it was, but it might be, since it is plot relevant. It probably has a plot shield preventing you from killing it. :smallannoyed:

Darn, I'm already past that disease monster in center of 1st floor. Man, Jahiera has a spell that can kill any golem (Shillagh and Flame Blade damages every golem).

Only Flame blade harms the Sewer golem (because it deals fire damage as a weapon I think).
Oh, well, guess I'll leave the dungeon.

MickJay
2009-06-16, 04:49 PM
I can't remember what the deal with sewer golem was, I think it was killable after it performed it's task but I can't remember for sure...

Last time I played: Aerie, Nalia, Jaheira, Keldorn, Jan. The time before that, it was Minsc instead of Keldorn (I was playing a Cavalier paladin then, with insane stats - I rolled 95 on creation in BG, which resulted in 5 18s and a 5 in intelligence; then +1 to all except for intelligence from tomes and +2 to charisma). When I tried going evil, it was, not surprisingly, Korgan, Viconia, Edwin, Jan and Jaheira.

Easiest fight with Kangaxx was when Aerie cast on herself the spells protecting her from effects of the schools of magic and soaked up everything the demilich was throwing at her; right behind her Keldorn was happily slashing at Kangaxx with Carsomyr, until the lich died.

Saintheart
2009-06-17, 07:02 AM
Surprisingly, I managed to take out the red dragon without resorting to any skull trap or snare cheesery. Instead, it was a much more straight-up fight: Simulacrum (Helm of Vhailor) on Anomen for double cleric goodness, protagonist pelts the dragon with a couple of lower resistance spells and then a Greater Malison while Nalia casts Summon Wyvern. Haste up, Blur, Stoneskin, Spirit Armor, and in we go. Keldorn had Strohm's Dragonslayer sword and shield by then, so he kept on hacking away, but when the dragon got "Badly injured" it suddenly stopped moving; I interpreted it as the Celestial Fury finally overcoming magic resistance. So we took it down nice and fast.

From there, dealing with Trademeet was simple. I ditched Yoshimo for plot purposes (took Cernd with me just to get the druid grove back) and ... to be honest, I've been coping without Yoshi. More XP all round and I'll have to lose him eventually anyway...

So I turned to the Unseeing Eye mission. And discovered something: you can just about solo the entire Lair of the Unseeing Eye with Korgan or any half-decent fighter ... when you've got the Shield of Balduran equipped. Reflects beholder rays ... and beholders and gauths basically don't seem to have any physical attacks, or at least none that could penetrate. I sent in Anomen at one point to help, then realised Korgan hadn't lost a hitpoint, so pulled him back and watched the stunted little bugger put his boot clean up several undescribable orifices.

Basically, I killed everything in the place on the way to the Unseeing Eye, then (with, appropriately, Keldorn landing the blow that killed the Eye) Korgan basically moved out to clean out the rest of the nest all on his own.

I'm going to try and take on those mind flayers in the sewers above next.

Biggest recommendation I've got so far? Celestial Fury + 3 stars in katana = made of win. As is raiding Watcher's Keep while you're still in Chapter 2 if you have Throne of Bhaal. There's so much good, usable stuff (potion bags, case of plenty +1, quiver of plenty +1) and you can pull back when things get tough and come back later (which I'm not far off doing.)

SoD
2009-06-17, 07:14 AM
I'd been playing as an Abjuror, and was having fun...until the program started crashing everytime I rested. Anyone else had that problem?

MickJay
2009-06-17, 12:29 PM
I think I had most fun killing the red dragon for the first time, right after completing majority of Athkatla's quests and D'Arnise stronghold. Lots of protective spells on the party, a few weakening on the dragon, then my paladin charged forward while rest of the party was just shooting and throwing spells from distance. It took 4 harper's calls in total, 3 reloads and was much more interesting then trapping/blowing him up. The party was level 12-13 at the time.

Atelm
2009-06-18, 02:07 AM
I'd been playing as an Abjuror, and was having fun...until the program started crashing everytime I rested. Anyone else had that problem?

Have you tried updating the game? BioWare, the producers of the game, have the latest official patches on their website.

http://www.bioware.com/games/shadows_amn/support/patches/

http://www.bioware.com/games/throne_bhaal/support/patches/

Either one of those for the second game depending on if you are playing with the expansion or not.

If that's not the case you could see if any of these help.

http://www.bioware.com/games/throne_bhaal/support/faq/index.html?faqID=40

Tam_OConnor
2009-06-18, 01:08 PM
Hey, random question:

BGI with TotSC: I've more or less finished the game. All of TotSC is finished, and I'm trying to enter the Ducal Palace. No, scratch that. I can get inside the Palace, but the entrance animation keeps looping. So I get maybe two seconds of being inside, then the movie plays, then I get another two seconds.

There was another thread earlier this month with the same problem, only with the Undercity movie. It ain't a terrible concern (since I hit the XP Cap before I finished TotSC), but I'd like to die to Sarevok a few dozen times. I've had the game since it came out, and in all that time, I've had the glory of killing Sarevok /once/.

Anyone know a fix (because I didn't see anything on the subject on the Sorcerer's Place boards).

Moonshadow
2009-06-19, 05:02 AM
Have you tried hitting Enter to skip the movie, or something?

Don't worry, dying to Sarevok is fun =( If you can beat him using conventional methods, I'll applaude you.

I had to use Monster/Fireball Wand Spam to beat his ass =(

Lord of the Helms
2009-06-19, 06:07 AM
The only thing that even made it sporting for me to fight Sarevok were the traps that I didn't avoid when I fought him. Hacked him to pieces in no time. Really, after Aec'Letec, who was an enormous pain to defeat without losing one of my party members (even my main char) to Zombiefication, Sarevok was kind of a pushover.

Saintheart
2009-06-20, 11:29 PM
On BG2, the mind flayers in the sewers was the toughest fight I've had so far, bearing in mind I'm still on Chapter Two and just acquiring XP and goods. Took me a good three tries to get it absolutely right, but it was a really satisfying fight to win since it required some actual tactical thought rather than kick in the door tactics.

Basically it came down to choke point tactics again, though. Anomen was the biggest asset in the battle: Chaotic Commands x2 and Fire Storm made the battle winnable. I had a few Helms of Charm Protection as well as the Shield of Harmony on Korgan in terms of shielding my mind. This is also after I've beaten the red dragon, so I had all the red dragon shield, armour, etc to put on Keldorn.

Those who've played it know the toughest one is the last fight: five goddamn mind flayers, an alhoon, two ulitharids and a couple of umber hulks. So the strategy came to this: cast Chaotic Commands x2 on Anomen and the protagonist, summon up a flesh golem (Book of Golems from Watcher's Keep), and then have the golem open the door. The initial salvos of domination and death magic hit the golem, and from there Korgan and Keldorn held the door.

That left space for Anomen to cast Fire Storm in the vicinity of the doorway. The protagonist and Nalia pinged a couple of fireballs into the room to start with; that was to interrupt spellcasting, and it seemed to work. From there, it was a matter of grinding the mind flayers against Anomen's fire storm behind them and the protagonist slinging Lower Resistance spells at the Alhoon. Like I said, I'm no master at this and that was about the fourth try, but on this one I managed to keep everyone alive. It felt quite satisfying mainly because of the way Keldorn and Korgan were able to stand their ground; I was proud of them ;)

And thus, the Hammer of Thunderbolts, which I've never gotten before, and which I'm one piece away from acquiring in the Underdark.

Meanwhile, though, I've grabbed Belm and gone back to Watcher's Keep to try and penetrate a bit further. The anti-mind flayer tactics and charm protection spells worked well against the succubi, I've started being able to hold my ground against demons, and I just have to take the Demon Wraith now before moving on to Aesgareth and the vagaries of his Deck of Many Things...

Starbuck_II
2009-06-21, 01:37 PM
Those who've played it know the toughest one is the last fight: five goddamn mind flayers, an alhoon, two ulitharids and a couple of umber hulks. So the strategy came to this: cast Chaotic Commands x2 on Anomen and the protagonist, summon up a flesh golem (Book of Golems from Watcher's Keep), and then have the golem open the door. The initial salvos of domination and death magic hit the golem, and from there Korgan and Keldorn held the door.


I used backstab to kill them.
I used the mod for the NPC Nikitallia (a little buggy but she is a great thief). I learned to love backstabbing. Took me a heck of alot of tries though because of Mindblast.

BlueWizard
2009-06-22, 05:04 AM
Stick with one class. You'll get the best benefit in the game regardless of class. :smallcool::smallcool::smallcool:

Lord_Asmodeus
2009-06-25, 04:31 PM
Does this apply to Baldur's Gate 2 as well as BG1? If so, I have a dillema. I'm playing a necromancer, and for some reason no matter what spell I tell him to cast, he tries to go to the place I tell him to cast the spell to (or the person) and casts it there. He has become incapable of casting over distances. Has anyone seen this problem before? Should I just try loading to a point before this was happening, do I need a patch?

Winthur
2009-06-25, 04:53 PM
Maybe the spell description limits the use of the spell to "touch"? Like Finger of Death? Or maybe your character is blinded?

Lord_Asmodeus
2009-06-25, 05:12 PM
Well, it's ALL spells that he only casts when there, and I checked for that, I went to a temple and everything. If he's blind it's not saying so.

Moonshadow
2009-06-28, 12:09 AM
So, anyone have an opinion as to what the hardest class to play through BG 1 and 2 would be?

JellyPooga
2009-06-28, 01:54 AM
So, anyone have an opinion as to what the hardest class to play through BG 1 and 2 would be?

I could never get to grips with playing a Bard, it has to be said. That's not to say they're the hardest, per se, just that of all the classes I never got very far with them largely because I found myself relying on teammates to do all the donkey work of actually killing anything. Thieves are better at, well, thieving, Mages are better at spells and practically every other class is better at combat...though they're versatile, there's nothing significant enough that they can do that another class can't do better.

Suedars
2009-06-28, 04:00 AM
Blades are great, and are probably roughly even as far as combat goes with fighters and similar classes. After that, all the spells and thieving abilities are just a very nice bonus.

The hardest class to get through the game would probably be one of the laughably bad kits, like Beastmaster.

arguskos
2009-06-28, 05:07 AM
Hardest class? I'd probably go with Jester. It lacks the combat skill of the Blade or the songs of the Bard. It's just a joke (forgive my awful awful pun).

If we aren't counting kits, I'll still say the Bard. It can't hold its own in a fight and lacks the magical skill to put enemy mages down for good.

Triaxx
2009-06-28, 05:52 AM
You just don't get the power of the Bard. It's not the thievery, not the magic, and not the sword. It's all of it together.

Fighter: Woo-hoo, Red Dragon Plate!
Bard: Elven Chain Mail, plus Spirit Armor, plus Stoneskin.
Fighter: I hate you.
Bard: And Haste.

Bard: Ouch, I hurt myself. Ooh, Ring of Regeneration!
RibaldA: Dur....
RibaldB: Hey, my Bling! Get him!
Bard: *stabbity*

A bard is like having a half of a fighter and half of a wizard, and all of it awesome. Especially since the Bard can cast any spell the wizard can from scrolls.

Bard vs. Dragon: Timestop, apply Vorpal Sword.

Lokxy
2009-06-28, 06:13 AM
Bards can solo through first game without much trouble. Staff of fire means unlimited supply of fireballs and tough fights can be won with bow. Only real problem was the werewolf ship as there was almost no space for hit and run tactics.
In second game bards are even better. With access to higher level spells, magic swords like Carsomyr and traps they can kill anything.

banthesun
2009-06-28, 06:50 AM
Blades are broken in my opinion. They have magic missile (which means they join the blow apart dragons group in your party), they can take over all the pickpocketing for your party, leaving any real rouges with better skills, then they have bonuses to combat, and it practicaly tells you to dual-wield. What's not to like?

JellyPooga
2009-06-28, 07:06 AM
A bard is like having a half of a fighter and half of a wizard, and all of it awesome. Especially since the Bard can cast any spell the wizard can from scrolls.

Except a Multi/Dual Class Fighter/Wizard does it better. Sure you can't use any armour, but that's what Robes and the various Armour Spells are for. As a Dual Class, you can even take a Kit on your first Class (Notably Kensai, which can't use armour anyway). You don't get Thievery skills either, which can be a pain if you're going solo (or even with a party; there's not really any decent thief NPCs), but magic makes up part of the lack; Invisibility and Knock covering Hide/Move Silent and Lock Picking. Pick Pocket is pretty much a waste of time anyway.

If you want to move on to ToB and the high level abilities, a Rogue gets the Use Any Item too (IIRC) and as far as I remember the Bard only abilities are somewhat lacklustre in comparison to what the other classes get.

There is one thing to be said for Bards though...you do get to manage a Playhouse in BGII :smallbiggrin:

Winthur
2009-06-28, 08:41 AM
Hardest class? I'd probably go with Jester. It lacks the combat skill of the Blade or the songs of the Bard. It's just a joke (forgive my awful awful pun).

OBJECTION!
Jesters are pimpin'. The bard songs don't really do anything, while Jester can stun a lot of his enemies, providing a lot of nice crowd control. (Certain player, Kinski, managed to do wonders with his solo Jester)

Cespenar
2009-06-28, 03:47 PM
OBJECTION!
Jesters are pimpin'. The bard songs don't really do anything, while Jester can stun a lot of his enemies, providing a lot of nice crowd control. (Certain player, Kinski, managed to do wonders with his solo Jester)

So which class/kit would you dub 'the hardest'?

arguskos
2009-06-28, 03:57 PM
OBJECTION!
Jesters are pimpin'. The bard songs don't really do anything, while Jester can stun a lot of his enemies, providing a lot of nice crowd control. (Certain player, Kinski, managed to do wonders with his solo Jester)
Going off my experince soloing with a Jester, it was the hardest time I've ever had. I just don't like bards that much, and they don't seem to like me either. :smallannoyed:

Kalbron
2009-06-28, 07:40 PM
I would say that the hardest class would be pure fighter. Partially because you have no chance of getting through some of the spell protections that mages can throw up. Partially because you have to rely on potions for healing. Partially because you can't open locks, unless you get the dwarven hammer of super strength. Oh and beholders/mindflayers/bassilisks will be the death of you.

So yeah. All around screwed pretty much.

Starbuck_II
2009-06-28, 09:37 PM
Shield of balduran handles Beholders.
Mindflayers in the non-modded game are all luck (hope you make save).

So you'll want a one handed weapon for beholders and your favorite weapon/style.
Like Minsc (Ranger but same idea) has Mace and 2 handed sword chosen because he is prepared for beholders.

Pure Fighter has little over Fighter kits.

Triaxx
2009-06-29, 05:32 AM
Except a bard levels faster than the dual class. And doesn't waste XP returning from level 1. Anything the Kensage can do, the Bard can from the start. Besides, Bards can use missile weapons.

Oh, and Normal Fighters, can switch to normal weapons to overcome the worst of the defenses.

Wraith
2009-06-29, 06:00 AM
While not the worst class, my experience sxays that Jester is probably one of the more underpowered ones, on the basis that the Baldur's Gate campaign has only a few 'rankings' of enemies.
There's Mooks, who you can usually slaughter without much effort at all, and Ultimate Evil Incarnate who are either so high level, or have so many natural bonuses as to make no difference, that they simply won't be affected by your key class-skill, the Song.

In another campaign against hoardes and armies (like Neverwinter Nights, for example), a Jester would be great. Against the sort of things that the Bhaalspawn gets to fight... well...

:elan: : "Hey Mister Demogorgon! What's that behind you? YOINK! Got yer nose!"
:mitd: : "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!"
:elan: : "...Crap...."

*THE* most underpowered class? I'd go with either Beastmaster (summoned animals have their uses, but no where near enough to pay off the weapon and armour restrictions) and with Shapeshifter following not far behind.

A controversial one, perhaps, but I'm still going from personal experience. Perhaps I just have a very pedantic way of playing the game, but I can't make a good case for denying a Druid his spellcasting, weapon and armour bonuses, just for a slight physical buff that can be achieved (and vastly improved upon) with... spellcasting, armour and weapon bonuses, particularly late in the game when equipment becomes crucial to success. :smallconfused:

Kalbron
2009-06-29, 06:41 AM
So I'm currently 2/3 of a way through a solo Sorceror run of BG and ToSC (Tutu of course) and... wow. Durlag's tower is mindblowingly hard without someone to disarm traps.

Though I did kill Shandalar, so that's always fun. Mmm... 26,000 XP. Wand of Monster Summoning (Ogres) + Animate Dead + Protection from Fire on all summons + Magic Missile spam + Pierce Magic to get rid of that pesky Globe of Invunrability = fun!

Lord_Asmodeus
2009-06-29, 12:57 PM
Apparently, a wizard that can't cast spells from a distance is very tricky to use... :smallsigh:

Morty
2009-06-29, 01:03 PM
*THE* most underpowered class? I'd go with either Beastmaster (summoned animals have their uses, but no where near enough to pay off the weapon and armour restrictions) and with Shapeshifter following not far behind.


Oh yes, Beastmaster is weak. I had a weird habit of testing various classes and options on Illasera at the beginning on ToB, and when I tried beating her with the Beastmaster, she one-shotted all his summons with the Death Wish spell.:smallsigh: I still beat her of course, but it didn't endear me to this particular kit.

Lord of the Helms
2009-06-29, 09:55 PM
*THE* most underpowered class? I'd go with either Beastmaster (summoned animals have their uses, but no where near enough to pay off the weapon and armour restrictions) and with Shapeshifter following not far behind.


Wizard Slayer, too. Cannot use magic items excemt weapons and armor? For a little bit of magic resistance? Really, Beast Master and Wizard Slayer are the two bad kits in the game.

Btw, the key to using a Shapeshifter is to buff yourself up, then shapeshift. Same as a blade will cast tons of buffs, then activate his stance, then cas Tenser's. He's strong. Quite strong, physically speaking. Though you still get the shaft a bit (his werewolf shapes aren't nearly as strong as they should be by PnP rules).

Cespenar
2009-06-30, 12:49 AM
Yes, there was a mod that allowed Cernd to shapeshift into "real" werewolves, as with the stats of the hostile ones that the game throws at you, I guess, and it was way overpowered.

Lord of the Helms
2009-06-30, 04:05 AM
Yes, there was a mod that allowed Cernd to shapeshift into "real" werewolves, as with the stats of the hostile ones that the game throws at you, I guess, and it was way overpowered.

Oh yes, I tried that one. He basically becomes better at being a fighter than an actual fighter (obscene strength and BAB, immune to normal weapons, magic resistance, regeneration as a Greater Werewolf has, AC on par with a dex 19 magic full plate shield wielder), without even casting buffs. And ho boy, can he cast buffs. Iron Skin is just the tip of the iceberg. It's totally broken unless you use it with the Tactics mod it was designed for (which makes the game much harder).

Wraith
2009-06-30, 05:34 AM
Btw, the key to using a Shapeshifter is to buff yourself up, then shapeshift. Same as a blade will cast tons of buffs, then activate his stance, then cas Tenser's. He's strong. Quite strong, physically speaking. Though you still get the shaft a bit (his werewolf shapes aren't nearly as strong as they should be by PnP rules).

That would be why I made such an awful mess of things, I think!
I like to use Druids as my 'trouble shooter' class. They're 'okay' as close combat help, they can throw around healing where it's needed most and with a bit of forward thought they can take on any NPC in the game while the rest of your party takes care of the other enemies (Iron Skins protect against Rogues, Insect Swarm/Creeping Doom to nullify Wizards, that sort of thing).

Shapeshifting removes 2 of those 3 possibilities, and old habits die too hard to relearn the class all over again :smallbiggrin:

Kalbron
2009-06-30, 06:49 AM
Druids are fun. Not least because they level up rather rapidly at the start.

The first class I played through the whole of SoA without restarting was... amazingly, an Avenger. I just couldn't go past the whole quickly-levels-to-12-then-spams-Instant-Death-chromatic-orbs deal without giving it a whirl. And surprisingly it worked. My first attempt at the Shadow Dragon resulted in half my party permanently dead, but it was highly satisfying to see that white ghost shape appear. XD

Starbuck_II
2009-06-30, 08:57 AM
Wizard Slayer, too. Cannot use magic items excemt weapons and armor? For a little bit of magic resistance? Really, Beast Master and Wizard Slayer are the two bad kits in the game.

Btw, the key to using a Shapeshifter is to buff yourself up, then shapeshift. Same as a blade will cast tons of buffs, then activate his stance, then cas Tenser's. He's strong. Quite strong, physically speaking. Though you still get the shaft a bit (his werewolf shapes aren't nearly as strong as they should be by PnP rules).

Heck, hand Mr. Blade a Free action ring or that short sword that gives that ability (Arbane's?)+ Defensive Stance:
Now you can move and stay in Defensive Stance (The ring/Sword blocks the stuck issue of the Stance).

Lord of the Helms
2009-07-03, 04:55 AM
Heck, hand Mr. Blade a Free action ring or that short sword that gives that ability (Arbane's?)+ Defensive Stance:
Now you can move and stay in Defensive Stance (The ring/Sword blocks the stuck issue of the Stance).

Yep, Blades are seriously powerful and dangerous.

Really, pretty much all Kits are useful in one way or another, except the Beastmaster and Wizard Slayer, who are really quite useless. But other than that, let's see:

Fighter: Berserker gets a lesser rage, at the price of no missile weapons (not including the magical throwing axes, which are a great choice anyway). Kensai gets obscene damage and attack bonuses.
Ranger: Stalker gets backstab and is strong enough to stay in combat after using it, plus nice extra spells and a sneaking bonus. If you're playing a sneaky ranger, you have to wear light armor anyway. Archer is, well, really, really good at archery. Like, obscenely good.
Paladin: If you don't use a Kit, you're doing it wrong and your char deserves to die. Horribly. Cavalier gets nice bonuses for practically no price. Undead Hunter gets even nicer bonuses for a slight price. Inquisitor gets the nicest bonuses and special abilities, although he does pay a somewhat heftier price - still, immune to hold and mind control of any kind, plus dispel magic and True Sight tons of times? Win.
Cleric: All get a nice extra power, none get any drawbacks.
Druids: Well, you don't really have to use one, but still, all are usable in one way or another, Totemic and Avenger just being a different flavor of a spellcaster and summoner druid, and Shapechanger being a buffer-meleer.
Bard: Blade is a melee monster. Skald is a different type of decent combat-y-er bard. Jester gets more useful things to do with his bard song.
Thiefs: Assassin's special poison is nice. Bounty Hunter's traps also. Swashbuckler is the best for open melee, but the problem is he can't backstab, which would be the main advantage for a melee thief. Still, a good alternative to fighter/thief multiclasses.
Mage: Specialise. One extra spell slot. Duh. Alternatively, Wild Surge, yay!

And the monks, barbarians and sorcerors all are viable as well.

Then you get to dual-classing. Kensai/Mage. Kensai/Thief. Fighter/Cleric. Etc. blabla. Good times.

Blayze
2009-07-03, 06:48 AM
Really, Beast Master and Wizard Slayer are the two bad kits in the game.

That's why there's two mods to buff Wizard Slayers. I've only used one of them, but I imagine with both you can get 100% natural Magic Resistance eventually.

Besides, just dual to a Thief and you're sorted for everything ever.

On a related note, the Level 1 NPCs mod allows for some truly evil and illegal multiclass combinations with your NPCs -- such as the use of kits in a multiclass.

For example, Viconia the Wizard Slayer/Cleric/Mage, Jaheira the Monk, Minsc the Barbarian/Thief (Yes, that *is* correct -- the Barbarian class is treated as a Fighter kit by the game).

Sadly you can't alter Charname's class combinations with it, or abuse the Monk or Sorcerer classes in the same way -- but then again, bizarre combinations are what Icewind Dale 2 is there for.

Starbuck_II
2009-07-03, 10:42 AM
I added a mod that created this troll adventure. You help a troll find true love, but in the end you get the ring.

Sadly, it is a cursed ring (found out what it did after using):
1) Str +4
2) hp increased as if Con treated as +2 (it doesn't increase con just increasing hps as if)
3) Negative levels (4 I think)
4) Wild Surge with every spell-like (increased Korgan's Enrage, item abilities, etc)

Sucked so bad when I used Jaheira (didn't know the wild surge would happen till after saved). So after finishing her missions booted her...strangely she is still waiting by Harper's hold even though we finished that quest.

Korgan is pretty beefy now (found armor that gives Negative level protection). But I usually have to use 2 enrages for it to function right.

It was cool when he enraged the entire party once.

Smiling Knight
2009-07-04, 01:14 PM
I just completed ToB for the first time, and... Wow. That was awesome. Keldorn and Minsc are the two coolest characters. I absolutely loved their endings. This has been one of the most fun games I have ever played. It should be mandatory for everyone who likes having fun, tactical thinking, dragon-slaying, and good characterization everywhere. 10*'s. It may be the only game I've ever play as good as the Civilization ones, though they really can't be compared as their genres are so different.

I'll say it again. Keldorn is so fricken awesome. The god of justice himself makes him his right-hand man!

Moonshadow
2009-07-05, 04:44 AM
To cheese and use an Assassin/Mage, but lose out on all the nifty thief armor, or to stay as a single class Assassin. That is the question.

arguskos
2009-07-18, 01:26 AM
So, I've been playing BG2 a lot recently, and tonight I found myself preparing to take on Thaxll'ssyllyia, the Shadow Dragon. I ran through my buff sequence (Luck, Aid, Haste, Pro Evil 15 ft, etc), and positioned my party members.

For reference, my party is Nalia, Jan, Jaheria, Mazzy, Aerie, and the PC (Cleric/Ranger dual wielding hammers and flails).

I force attacked with Jaheria and the PC, ordered Mazzy to lay down some cover fire, had Aerie and Jan throw some Lower Resistances at Thaxll'ssyllyia. Nalia I ordered to spam Chromatic Orb at it.

Well... to my surprise, her FIRST ONE auto-petrified Thaxll'ssyllyia, ending the fight instantly. I'm still in shock. :smalleek:

king.com
2009-07-18, 02:46 AM
So, I've been playing BG2 a lot recently, and tonight I found myself preparing to take on Thaxll'ssyllyia, the Shadow Dragon. I ran through my buff sequence (Luck, Aid, Haste, Pro Evil 15 ft, etc), and positioned my party members.

For reference, my party is Nalia, Jan, Jaheria, Mazzy, Aerie, and the PC (Cleric/Ranger dual wielding hammers and flails).

I force attacked with Jaheria and the PC, ordered Mazzy to lay down some cover fire, had Aerie and Jan throw some Lower Resistances at Thaxll'ssyllyia. Nalia I ordered to spam Chromatic Orb at it.

Well... to my surprise, her FIRST ONE auto-petrified Thaxll'ssyllyia, ending the fight instantly. I'm still in shock. :smalleek:

That would have to be one of the pimpest gaming moments in history.

Winthur
2009-07-18, 06:45 AM
"Petrified" as in "Turned to stone"? If so, you should possibly kill her anyway in her flesh form because she drops her scales which make a fancy armor.

BTW: Nice idea for a challenging team - low XP growth ratio will spice the game up a little.

Guancyto
2009-07-18, 06:45 PM
"Petrified" as in "Turned to stone"? If so, you should possibly kill her anyway in her flesh form because she drops her scales which make a fancy armor.

You really don't want to destroy the scroll she's carrying, either. <3

If you kept the statue around instead of shattering it, you should know: Stone to Flesh turns everything (including enemies!) back to fleshiness with 1 HP remaining. It will be the shortest fight ever - again!

arguskos
2009-07-18, 09:26 PM
Well, dragons when petrified automatically shatter, leaving no gear but gold and plot-gear. I only got the Crom Faeyr scroll and some gold. :smallfrown: I just cheated in the shadow dragon scales, since I thought I deserved them dammit!

In any case, it was awesome. As for my fail party... eh. I hate this party SO MUCH. :smallfurious: Jaheria is aggravating as always, Nalia is annoying, and Mazzy is overly righteous. Jan and Aerie are my only true friends, since they're so cheerful and happy. At least the Aerie romance is going well. :smallcool:

I just figured, I never take anyone in this crew except for Aerie, so it was worth taking them again. I just finished a full BG1-->ToB run with a Necromancer, so I wanted to restart with a fresh crew. By the way, in case anyone cares, the Necromancer party was Edwin, Viconia, Sarevok, Haer'Dalis, and Jon Irenicus (yay mods).

Blayze
2009-07-19, 03:57 AM
Let me guess... until you got Sarevok and Haer'Dalis you took Korgan and Jan, yes?

arguskos
2009-07-19, 04:10 AM
Let me guess... until you got Sarevok and Haer'Dalis you took Korgan and Jan, yes?
Uh, Korgan, yes. But... I had Haer'Dalis the whole game. :P Once I got Jon Irenicus, I dropped Cernd.

My SoA party was Viconia, Haer'Dalis, Korgan, Cernd, and Edwin.

arguskos
2009-07-21, 08:39 AM
Mmm... so tasty...

So, my last game became corrupted (actually, BG2 had some serious mod conflict issues, so I had to reinstall everything), and I had to restart.

My party as of right now is PC (LN cleric), Jaheria, Keldorn, Nalia, Aerie, and Jan. I decided I'd try out the "chaerg attack" method of defeating the Unseeing Eye quest, and after a really hard fight with Gaal and his minions (far too damn many of them), I rested up and was ready to tackle the Big Eye himself. I prep with Holy Power, Spiritual Hammer (I'm level 8), Haste, Pro Evil 15 ft, you know, the good stuff. We Keldorn and I charge in there (Jaheria was already dead actually, Gaal killed her and I don't have any resurrection ability), with the others on fire support (Magic Missile, Flame Arrow, Chromatic Orb, Aerie threw a few Holy Smites). Within a few rounds, the Eye slammed us with 2 Horrid Wiltings (Aerie and Jan dead), a Power Word: Kill (Nalia dead), a third Wilting (Keldorn dead), and a few Power Word: Stuns. There I am, all alone, my whole party dead as nails, just me, my trusty +2 warhammer (Spiritual wore off), and the Unseeing Eye. A few more rounds pass, his buffs wear off, and I somehow, miraculously, slay the beast!

That was the most satisfying victory ever. :smallbiggrin: Totally makes up for the damn Shadow Dragon debacle from the other day.