PDA

View Full Version : Ranged Pin: viable strategy vs. spellcaster?



Human Paragon 3
2009-05-18, 11:37 PM
Against an enemy spellcaster, is the Ranged Pin feat a viable strategy? Forcing grapple checks at range seems useful, but wouldn't readying an action to disrupt be better?

What IS the point of this feat?

RTGoodman
2009-05-18, 11:48 PM
I'll answer you out of order.


What IS the point of this feat?

I think the point is it's just a cool thing you see in movies/books that people wanted to do and couldn't in the Core-ish rules, so they added the feat in.



Against an enemy spellcaster, is the Ranged Pin feat a viable strategy? Forcing grapple checks at range seems useful, but wouldn't readying an action to disrupt be better?

I dunno if it's particularly worth it, but it's not BAD if you've got the other prerequisites. I mean, it forces them to spend a standard action, so that's cool I guess, even if it doesn't really scale well (i.e., the DC never increases). Readying probably isn't that great since there's a chance for them to make the Concentration check.

Also, how does it make sense for your size modifier to apply to a ranged pin?


EDIT: Ooh, but it does say you can ranged pin as a "ranged attack," so you can do it more than once per full attack, I think.

Ravens_cry
2009-05-19, 01:05 AM
From the peanut gallery, what is this ranged pin?

RTGoodman
2009-05-19, 01:27 AM
It's a feat from Complete Warrior. It requires Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Dex 15, and BAB +5. It lets you make a grapple check against opponents by pinning a bit of clothing or whatever to a wall/object with an arrow. They have to be within 5 feet of that wall or surface and have to be wearing clothing or armor for the arrow to stick through. You make a ranged attack with your bow, and then if you succeed you make opposed grapple checks (your size modifiers still count, but your bonus from Imp. Grapple, if you have it, doesn't). If you win, the target has to spend a Standard Action on its round to make a DC 15 Strength check or a DC 15 Escape Artist check before it can break free.

Ravens_cry
2009-05-19, 02:53 AM
Sounds like a fun feat, if I ever play an archer I will see about using it. Is it worth it? Don't know. But it has flavour up the ying yang!

Talic
2009-05-19, 03:29 AM
Well, the down side is that if it's big, it'll beat the grapple check.

If it's small, after level 7-10? It'll have Freedom of Movement.

So, at best, it's a non-damaging concentration check?

Small opportunity window. Granted, has decent use with some tactics, notably dispelling and the like.

Zaq
2009-05-19, 03:44 AM
As I read it, this takes an attack action rather than a standard action (since a normal grapple attempt is an attack action, and it simply says "a ranged grapple attempt"), so you can potentially either pin multiple opponents or mix a pin in with part of your attack routine. Most opponents will make the check without too much effort, but they still have to spend an action to do so, so you come out ahead in terms of action economy. If you can find a way of consistently getting a decent mod on the grapple check, it seems like a decent strategy to me... not exactly crazy powerful, but more than just another parlor trick, as so many cool-sounding fighter feats end up being. You do need to have both a decent attack mod and a decent grapple mod, which is kind of tricky, but doable. Seems pretty decent overall.

Talic
2009-05-19, 05:22 AM
No, if they beat your check, it doesn't cost them anything. Only time it costs them is if they lose to your check, and don't have freedom of movement.

It has the situational limiter that they must be near a wall or somesuch.

All in all, it's rather limited in use, and rather unlikely to work. Only advantage is that if you can lure multiple enemies to stand by walls/doors, you have the potential to harry multiple people.

I'd consider it if it was part of a tactical feat, but it's too weak to stand on its own.

Shademan
2009-05-19, 06:02 AM
is it possible then to shoot said caster several times with this feat to increase the DC?
by 15 per arrow, I'd daresay.

Talic
2009-05-19, 06:08 AM
No. It's possible to shoot more than 1 arrow to increase the number of attempts you can do.

The DC increase? All in your head. Incidentally, 15 per arrow? That would overpower the feat, as it's possible to fire something like 3 or so arrows at level 1.

By level 6? Not unheard of to fire 4.

Person_Man
2009-05-19, 09:34 AM
Ranged Sunder is a superior strategy. Sunder their holy symbol or spell component bag, and most casters won't be able to cast. Use blunt arrows (I think they're in Complete Adventurer) made of adamantine.

And/or you can use Smiting Spell (PHBII feat) to imbue a single spell into a single arrow or weapon. Use UMD as needed. Be creative.

Human Paragon 3
2009-05-19, 11:30 AM
Just a thought: Since the arrow grapples them, that means they are denied their dex bonus to AC, good for any rogue types in your party, and makes all later attacks that much more likely to hit.

lsfreak
2009-05-19, 04:31 PM
Biggest problem: they have to be against a wall, or a tree, or something else. If you run into wizards standing next to large, immobile objects often, then sure it's a viable strategy, but the likelihood of that happening is... slim.

yilduz
2009-05-19, 05:22 PM
Biggest problem: they have to be against a wall, or a tree, or something else. If you run into wizards standing next to large, immobile objects often, then sure it's a viable strategy, but the likelihood of that happening is... slim.

That was my thought, too. It seemed like a cool feat until I read that they need to be next to a wall. It seems like one of those feats that is cool to have, but you never get to use.

Hm... do you think it would work if you were under a fly spell, though? Think about it - if you're above the wizard, and he's standing on the ground, that puts him within 5 feet of it.

Talic
2009-05-19, 05:56 PM
If you're holding a bow... and you're going up against a mage...

And you're in the air...

And he's not?

He's a dumb mage.

yilduz
2009-05-19, 06:07 PM
If you're holding a bow... and you're going up against a mage...

And you're in the air...

And he's not?

He's a dumb mage.

Sooo... in other words... a sorcerer? :smallbiggrin:

Aquillion
2009-05-19, 06:09 PM
Also, if you get a chance to land arrows on the enemy mage, why not just kill them? They don't have many HP, generally; their defense usually comes down to avoiding getting hit (which will stop this, too.) You're better off using a build focused on getting bonus damage and trying to kill them outright.

Deepblue706
2009-05-19, 06:48 PM
Ranged Sunder is a superior strategy. Sunder their holy symbol or spell component bag, and most casters won't be able to cast. Use blunt arrows (I think they're in Complete Adventurer) made of adamantine.

The only downside is that you need to be within 30ft. But yeah, a blunt arrow won't suffer any penalties on the sunder check, and adamantine is sure to bust anything open.

It's fun to have all of the CWar Ranged (Tactic) feats when you're a Master Thrower, too; Start off with a trip shot, then pin them to the wall, then destroy their spellcasting tools, and disarm them of their prized weapon or rod or what-have-you all in a single turn...

Deepblue706
2009-05-19, 06:51 PM
Also, if you get a chance to land arrows on the enemy mage, why not just kill them? They don't have many HP, generally; their defense usually comes down to avoiding getting hit (which will stop this, too.) You're better off using a build focused on getting bonus damage and trying to kill them outright.

If they've a defense like Protection from Arrows, then damage may not be the best starting route. Chances are, attempts at hindering an enemy mage will better aid your companions, because if he gets much time to do much, your whole party will suffer.

Aquillion
2009-05-20, 12:05 AM
If they've a defense like Protection from Arrows, then damage may not be the best starting route. Chances are, attempts at hindering an enemy mage will better aid your companions, because if he gets much time to do much, your whole party will suffer.
Uh, Protection from Arrows grants DR 10/magic. Not really hard to get around for a PC.

Deepblue706
2009-05-20, 12:21 AM
Uh, Protection from Arrows grants DR 10/magic. Not really hard to get around for a PC.

That depends. A PC ought to sooner get his Longbow to be Mighty + His STR Mod before getting it to be magical. The earliest you can get this feat is level 5, as per the BAB requirement; and you might very well not have a magic bow yet.

Later on, by the time you've got your magic bow, then the mage could have Stoneskin. Now you need adamantine arrows, which IIRC are not cheap.

And this continues. DR and elemental resistances are significant against an archer since he'll be relying more on getting more hits in to deal his damage, instead of fully overcoming the DR with a single mighty blow.

Additionally, with Miss Percentages from Concealment, you are also going to lose significant amounts of damage; however, you're still likely to hit once if you have say, Rapid Shot. Doing a minor bit of damage instead of forcing the opponent to take more actions to do his stuff is a poor decision, in most cases, I must say.

RTGoodman
2009-05-20, 12:26 AM
That depends. A PC ought to soon get his Longbow to be Mighty + His STR Mod before getting it to be magical. The earliest you can get this feat is level 5, as per the BAB requirement; and you might very well not have a magic bow yet.

Later on, by the time you've got your magic bow, then the mage could have Stoneskin. Now you need adamantine arrows, which IIRC are not cheap.

And this continues. DR is significant against an archer since he'll be relying more on getting more hits in to deal his damage, instead of fully overcoming the DR with a single mighty blow.

And don't forget about wind wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWall.htm) - it can completely neuter archers starting at 3rd-5th level (depending on the caster).

Deepblue706
2009-05-20, 02:12 PM
And don't forget about wind wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWall.htm) - it can completely neuter archers starting at 3rd-5th level (depending on the caster).

Eh. Any self-respecting archer will also have plenty of javelins and other thrown gear, which can get through.

Additionally, if you're in open-enough an area where a bow is a useful weapon, you can also probably bring along a horse; meaning if you've ever encounter the spell before you might just be able to get around it. If the mage decides to fully enclose himself, then that mean's he's not going anywhere and your other party members can just run at him.

Zolem
2009-05-20, 02:17 PM
Under proper circumstances it's viable. A grappled spellcaster can't cast, a DC 15 STr or escape Artist (croos class) check won't be easy for them, and they have to blow a standard action to escape so even if they do succeed, there aren't manny spels they can cast. In adition, mages ahve horrible graple checks so if you even have this feat you have a very good chance to beat him. It can hold down the wizard to prevent a fire-ball casting or two so you can take on his minions and get a fighter in his face. Grappled foes are helpless if pinned (an excelent grapple check), so if sombody gets into mellee range, it's time for a coup de grace.

Kantolin
2009-05-20, 05:21 PM
If it's small, after level 7-10? It'll have Freedom of Movement.

I question that logic. If it's small, after level 7-10, it /might/ have freedom of movement avaliable to cast, but it also might not be up yet. And if everything everywhere has freedom of movement rings, then that sure makes killing them profitable upon resale. :P

Anyway, I also see the biggest problem as 'must be next to a solid object'. Sometimes that's okay, but in a lot of games it can be annoying.

Although there's always http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#tree .

Particularly effective to spend the action on the token in the first place? Not in particular. But you get points for coolness. :P

RTGoodman
2009-05-20, 06:10 PM
Anyway, I also see the biggest problem as 'must be next to a solid object'. Sometimes that's okay, but in a lot of games it can be annoying.

Although there's always http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#tree .

Particularly effective to spend the action on the token in the first place? Not in particular. But you get points for coolness. :P

You know, I've been trying to think of ways to guarantee a solid wall/object, and that was one of my thoughts. Anyone with access to Complete Mage know if there are any Reserve feats that let you temporarily summon something that could be used? I know there's the Elemental Summoning one, but that's all I can think of.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-20, 08:28 PM
That is why you have followers! Why else would you take the Leadership feat, if not for masses of puny guys that can run around and do stuff for you? :smallbiggrin: