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Llama231
2009-05-19, 07:01 PM
Well, this is becoming a growing popularity here on these boards comparing various science fiction civilizations or whatever against each other, and the discussions almost always wind up with which side is more advanced.

I have made this thread to discuss possible "tier lists" for the armies, and to see what everyone seems to think.

This list includes mostly suggestions from this thread.

God Tier (Even the civilians are gods.) [...Yeah.]
Ancients/Alterans/Ori/etc. (Stargate) (possibly Top Tier)
The Culture (by Iain M. Banks)
Fleetmind (Schlock Mercenary)
Inhibitors (Reynolds)
Krypton(s)? (Superman)
Man and Multivax (The Last Question)
Old Ones (Warhammer 40k)
The Q Continuum (Star Trek)
Reapers (Mass Effect) (Possibly Top Tier)
Xeelee and Humans (Xeelee Sequence)

Top Tier (Ancient races, etc.) [Too Long]
Chozo (Metroid)
Daleks, Time Lords, Osirans(Could be higher.) (Dr. Who)
Durandal (Marathon) (Possibly God)
E.E.Smith's Lensman series
Star Wars in General (They have had fast than light travel for 25,000 years already...) (Could be lower.)
Vorlons, Shadows, Other First Ones (Babylon 5)

High Tier (Big Boys) [Couple Hundred to a Thousand(s) of Years]
Borg, Most Super Advanced Star trek Species (Star Trek)
Combine (Half-Life) (Possibly Top)
The Conjoiners (Could be Lower) (Reynolds)
Covenant, other Halo Stuff (Flood could be higher.) (The rest could be lower.)
Dune Possibly Higher)
Federation, Space Pirates (Metroid)
Foundation post-Gaia (Possibly Top Tier)
Honor Harrington universe (Possibly Middle Tier)
Most stuff in the Schlock Mercenary universe.
Necrons, Eldar (Warhammer 40k) (Possibly Top Tier)


Middle Tier (Your Usual Humans) [About 200 Years in Future]
The Alliance (Firefly) (Possibly Low)
Neal Asher's Cormac/Polity series
Most Mass Effect Races (Could be High Tier)
Orks (Possibly High or Low Tier) (Warhammer 40k)
Protoss (Starcraft) (Possibly High)
Most Stuff in Star Fox
Most Star Trek Races. (Next generation+)
Tau, Imperium (Warhammer 40k) (Possibly High Tier)
Terrans (Starcraft) (Possibly Low)

Low (Not Quite as Powerful) [About 100 Years in Future]
Most Babylon 5 races. (Mimbari/Drakh could be higher.)
Cybermen (Dr. Who)
Star Trek (Original Series)

Bottom (Wait, is this really science fiction?) [Present Day or Less]
Ewoks (Star Wars)
Tyranids (Warhammer 40k)

GoC
2009-05-19, 07:11 PM
Is this about power, technology or age?:smallconfused:

Llama231
2009-05-19, 07:12 PM
Pretty much all of them.
Overall though, military technology is probably the most important.

puppyavenger
2009-05-19, 08:17 PM
well, The Fleetmind form Schlock mercenary would be either God or Top tier, as well as the androemedians

I'd say high teir for everyone else in that universe

Grod_The_Giant
2009-05-19, 08:22 PM
Off the top of my head, I would have to rate 'standard' Star Trek technology as at least high tier. They're even more casual about FTL travel than Star Wars, they have energy shields, phasers, and I don't even want to start on their teleporters.

chiasaur11
2009-05-19, 08:34 PM
I'd say Half-Life's Combine are High to Top.

Seven Hour war, and a token garrison on Earth keeps everyone but the Free Man helpless before some very nasty Synths.

Another guy worth Top or Godlike would be Durandal, from Marathon.

One scout ship, after he's done with it, can deal with a third of a battle group of a race with a galaxy wide network of slaves that took down all the client races of a bog standard bunch of precursors. Then he gets out the big guns.

KnightDisciple
2009-05-19, 08:47 PM
Honor Harrington universe is probably High Tier.

Ancients/Alterans/Whateverans from Stargate would be "god" tier, or at least Top tier.

Dhavaer
2009-05-19, 08:48 PM
Xeelee and Humans in the Xeelee sequence would probably be god tier. The Alliance in Firefly would be middle tier. Most of the races in Mass Effect would be either middle or high tier.

SurlySeraph
2009-05-19, 09:19 PM
The Culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture) are God-tier, as are the Q Continuum from Star Trek.

Llama231
2009-05-19, 09:25 PM
Off the top of my head, I would have to rate 'standard' Star Trek technology as at least high tier. They're even more casual about FTL travel than Star Wars, they have energy shields, phasers, and I don't even want to start on their teleporters.

I was actually using Star Trek as the baseline for the whole thing, and the still don't really compare to the other higher tires so much.

Verruckt
2009-05-19, 09:30 PM
Reavers are God tier, they are a species of super heavy battleships that can mind control people. Lack of FTL might just make them Top though.

Edit: This will inevitably be disputed, but 40k as a universe, and indeed most of the factions therein, oscillate wildly between Low and Top. The Gods are obviously God Tier, I'm not sure what the power level of denizens of the warp is whilst they are in their home territory is, but I believe they are all essentially immortal within the warp itself, so they may belong in God Tier as well.

Mando Knight
2009-05-19, 11:04 PM
They're even more casual about FTL travel than Star Wars, they have energy shields, phasers, and I don't even want to start on their teleporters.

Transporters are basically the only thing that Trek has over Star Wars, especially starting around the Clone Wars (where military tech really took off again after a few millennia of stagnation). Trek may have FTL all over the place, but if the sizes of the galaxies are the same, Star Wars FTL is far superior: the Federation as of Picard's career is primarily contained in the Alpha Quadrant of the Milky Way, whereas the Galactic Empire spans almost the entire Galaxy Far, Far Away. Even Solo's jury-rigged freighter has gathered more frequent spacer parsecs than the Voyager or the Enterprise-D.

kpenguin
2009-05-19, 11:13 PM
I was actually using Star Trek as the baseline for the whole thing, and the still don't really compare to the other higher tires so much.

Their replication technology is pretty damn advanced.

Mando Knight
2009-05-19, 11:19 PM
Their replication technology is pretty damn advanced.
That's something that confuses me. How can a society with the ability to exert near-total control over matter generation (transporters, replicators, the holodeck, the EMH...) lack the ability to warp space? I'm not talking about the warp drive, but about transwarp and hyperdrive... the ability to cut through space-time to shorten the distance traveled by an interstellar vessel.

kpenguin
2009-05-19, 11:22 PM
That's something that confuses me. How can a society with the ability to exert near-total control over matter generation (transporters, replicators, the holodeck, the EMH...) lack the ability to warp space? I'm not talking about the warp drive, but about transwarp and hyperdrive... the ability to cut through space-time to shorten the distance traveled by an interstellar vessel.

What makes you think that's even possible in the Star Trek universe?

Mando Knight
2009-05-19, 11:31 PM
What makes you think that's even possible in the Star Trek universe?

Transwarp (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Transwarp) and Quantum slipstream drives (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Quantum_slipstream_drive) seem to operate on that principle.

...And, y'know, when you can control energy at the level of the replicators and holodecks, you should be able to do some crazy stuff with it. Like break space-time.

SmartAlec
2009-05-19, 11:40 PM
What makes you think that's even possible in the Star Trek universe?

I think it actually happens in more than one episode. The Nth Degree comes to mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nth_Degree_(TNG_episode)

Innis Cabal
2009-05-20, 12:22 AM
Vorlons/shadows/other First ones should be god teir.

kpenguin
2009-05-20, 12:28 AM
I dunno. I think the Q would qualify more.

snoopy13a
2009-05-20, 12:33 AM
In Star Wars, there is the technology to destroy entire planets.

If you bring in the EU, which is always questionable, you can:

1) Destroy planets from across the galaxy with a giant gun (the Dark Empire comics)

2) Destroy stars using a space ship (the Jedi Academy Trilogy)

3) Destroy stars from across the galaxy using an ancient space station thingie and focal points from relics on the planets in the Corellia system (The Coreillian Trilogy)

This isn't even taking into account whatever obscene new weapons they've had in the books I haven't read (NJO and post-NJO stuff).

Innis Cabal
2009-05-20, 12:39 AM
In Star Wars, there is the technology to destroy entire planets.

If you bring in the EU, which is always questionable, you can:

1) Destroy planets from across the galaxy with a giant gun (the Dark Empire comics)

2) Destroy stars using a space ship (the Jedi Academy Trilogy)

3) Destroy stars from across the galaxy using an ancient space station thingie and focal points from relics on the planets in the Corellia system (The Coreillian Trilogy)

This isn't even taking into account whatever obscene new weapons they've had in the books I haven't read (NJO and post-NJO stuff).


These are all well and good but....I think 90% of the listed groups have the ability to do the very same thing, and cheaper

Dervag
2009-05-20, 12:47 AM
Off the top of my head, I would have to rate 'standard' Star Trek technology as at least high tier. They're even more casual about FTL travel than Star Wars, they have energy shields, phasers, and I don't even want to start on their teleporters.On the other hand, their FTL travel is much slower than that of Star Wars (crossing the galaxy takes about a century, as opposed to taking... I don't know, days or weeks). They have trouble creating stable AIs of human intelligence levels that don't go crazy. And their ability to generate and manipulate large amounts of energy is much less than that of most other high-tiers. They don't exactly crack planets open casually the way that some science fiction settings do.

I'd place the Federation between the "middle" and "high" tiers. They have some high-tier capabilities, but they lack some of the most important of them.
______


Their replication technology is pretty damn advanced.Yes. That's one of the things that's in the "high" tier. On the other hand, in terms of raw industrial capability they don't match the output of most "high" civilizations; they cannot assemble planetoids or even thousand-ship fleets of multimile vessels. But by the standards of a "middle" tier society, their replicator capability is extremely impressive.
______


Vorlons/shadows/other First ones should be god teir.Debatable. They're impressive as hell compared to normal species in the setting, but I don't think they have the kind of "rewrite physics on a whim" power that we see from groups like the Q Continuum.

TSED
2009-05-20, 01:12 AM
Really I'd put Schlock Mercenary's Fleetmind up in God territory as some one earlier mentioned.


The 40k races are fairly diverse on the spectrum, but let's ignore the 'gods' bit. We get:

Orks - low.
Necrons - high
Eldar - high
Imperium - mid
Tau - mid
Tyranids - low (singlehandedly proving this is not an accurate measure of power)


The... civilization whose name I can't remember from Mass Effect - mid.

Yeah, I've got nothing. I like my sci fi but I'm picky about it, can't think of anything else that I could have anything resembling an authority on besides Schlock / 40k / ME.

SmartAlec
2009-05-20, 01:35 AM
The 40k races are fairly diverse on the spectrum, but let's ignore the 'gods' bit.

The 40K universe might have its' own race with a godlike level of technological understanding, in the form of the oft-alluded-to Old Ones.

factotum
2009-05-20, 02:27 AM
Even Solo's jury-rigged freighter has gathered more frequent spacer parsecs than the Voyager or the Enterprise-D.

Actually, the mere EXISTENCE of the Millennium Falcon shows how casually FTL travel is treated in the Star Wars universe--I mean, it's a beat-up old cargo ship which would probably fit inside one of the Enterprise-D's nacelles with room to spare, yet it can travel at FTL speeds Star Trek can only dream about. For that matter, an X-Wing (which is clearly a lot smaller than any warp-capable Trek ship, including a runabout) can do FTL in Star Wars.

Innis Cabal
2009-05-20, 02:44 AM
The 40K universe might have its' own race with a godlike level of technological understanding, in the form of the oft-alluded-to Old Ones.

Or the literal Star Gods the C'Tan?

Though the Old Ones are all dead.

Boo
2009-05-20, 02:45 AM
Krypton: God Tier.

Okay, I'm not even sure if that is the name of the planet, but it's Supermans home world.

Philistine
2009-05-20, 03:08 AM
Off the top of my head, I would have to rate 'standard' Star Trek technology as at least high tier. They're even more casual about FTL travel than Star Wars, they have energy shields, phasers, and I don't even want to start on their teleporters.

Huh? In the ST universe, FTL travel is - as far as we've ever been shown - largely restricted to military (or at least governmental) vessels. And rightly so, because their power generation/propulsion technology is so hideously unsafe that it's a wonder anyone travels between stars at all - the various incarnations of the Enterprise have a reactor safety record unenviable even by the miserable standards of the old Soviet Navy. (Even with an engineering crew and very rare/specialized parts and supplies, they still manage to "go critical" or "experience a breach," endangering the survival of the ship approximately once a month.) They're also relatively slow, as FTL speeds go, requiring weeks or months to move between systems, and years or decades to cross the galaxy. (The entire premise of Voyager simply couldn't happen in a lot of other SF settings.) How do you get "casual" FTL travel out of all that? Their FTL is squarely in the "Middle" tier - below the midpoint, even.

By contrast: In the SW universe, FTL travel is the routine province of individual freighter pilots, as well as larger civilian shipping/transportation firms and (of course) military/government usage; furthermore, the expectation is that any given tramp freighter pilot will be able to maintain his own ship with commonly-available parts and tools. And they demonstrate sufficient speed to cross large sections of the galactic disk in hours, compared to the decades required to travel a similar distance in ST.

skywalker
2009-05-20, 03:51 AM
Really I'd put Schlock Mercenary's Fleetmind up in God territory as some one earlier mentioned.


The 40k races are fairly diverse on the spectrum, but let's ignore the 'gods' bit. We get:

Orks - low.
Necrons - high
Eldar - high
Imperium - mid
Tau - mid
Tyranids - low (singlehandedly proving this is not an accurate measure of power)


The... civilization whose name I can't remember from Mass Effect - mid.

Yeah, I've got nothing. I like my sci fi but I'm picky about it, can't think of anything else that I could have anything resembling an authority on besides Schlock / 40k / ME.

Orks, when you think about it differently, are seriously high tier. Their ships are airtight merely because they do not understand that giant wholes should kill them all. Red makes their vehicles go faster simply because they believe that it does.

I also like how you mention that "low-tier" does not mean "low-power."


Huh? In the ST universe, FTL travel is - as far as we've ever been shown - largely restricted to military (or at least governmental) vessels. And rightly so, because their power generation/propulsion technology is so hideously unsafe that it's a wonder anyone travels between stars at all - the various incarnations of the Enterprise have a reactor safety record unenviable even by the miserable standards of the old Soviet Navy. (Even with an engineering crew and very rare/specialized parts and supplies, they still manage to "go critical" or "experience a breach," endangering the survival of the ship approximately once a month.) They're also relatively slow, as FTL speeds go, requiring weeks or months to move between systems, and years or decades to cross the galaxy. (The entire premise of Voyager simply couldn't happen in a lot of other SF settings.) How do you get "casual" FTL travel out of all that? Their FTL is squarely in the "Middle" tier - below the midpoint, even.

By contrast: In the SW universe, FTL travel is the routine province of individual freighter pilots, as well as larger civilian shipping/transportation firms and (of course) military/government usage; furthermore, the expectation is that any given tramp freighter pilot will be able to maintain his own ship with commonly-available parts and tools. And they demonstrate sufficient speed to cross large sections of the galactic disk in hours, compared to the decades required to travel a similar distance in ST.

In Star Trek, they go to warp all the frickin' time. They fight at warp speeds. This is why I think people say FTL is "more casual." In Star Wars, it's a big deal the first time they jump into hyperspace. Han and Luke have a whole argument about how scary it is. I think it's implied that the individual freighter captains are putting quite a bit on the line when they jump into hyperspace.

I think it would be more appropriate to compare the top warp speed of Star Trek with the top normal space speed of Star Wars, since warping Star Trek ships stay in normal space, whereas Star Wars ships don't.

I always thought replicators and holodecks were simply mental trickery. Kinda like The Matrix. If you die in the Matrix, you die in real life, because your brain thinks you're dead. Same principle.

kpenguin
2009-05-20, 04:12 AM
I think saying those mid-tiers are 100 years in the future is optimistic. Really, there's a pretty large gap between Star Trek and Ewoks.

Selrahc
2009-05-20, 04:32 AM
Really I'd put Schlock Mercenary's Fleetmind up in God territory as some one earlier mentioned.


The 40k races are fairly diverse on the spectrum, but let's ignore the 'gods' bit. We get:

Orks - low.
Necrons - high
Eldar - high
Imperium - mid
Tau - mid
Tyranids - low (singlehandedly proving this is not an accurate measure of power)


The... civilization whose name I can't remember from Mass Effect - mid.

Yeah, I've got nothing. I like my sci fi but I'm picky about it, can't think of anything else that I could have anything resembling an authority on besides Schlock / 40k / ME.

Honestly, given that the stated "High" tiers include the ones from Halo, I'd say that the Imperium and the Tau are rather definitely high tier, and the Eldar and Necrons may very well be top, since they have technology at least as good as Star Wars.

Orks have a lot of technology that is better than the present day (Spaceships, Teleporters, Giant War mechs etc.) so they are at least mid tier.

Tyranids don't really fit the scale.

bosssmiley
2009-05-20, 05:19 AM
Top Tier (Ancient races, etc.) [Too Long]
Vorlons, Shadows, Other First Ones
Daleks, Time Lords, Osirans(Could be higher.)
Star Wars in General (the have had fast than light travel for 25,000 years already...)
Chozo (Metroid)

High Tier (Big Boys) [Couple Hundred to a Thousand Years]
Covenant, other Halo Stuff (Flood could be higher.)
Borg, Most Super Advanced Star trek Species
Federation, Space Pirates (Metroid)


Middle Tier (Your Usual Humans) [About 100 Years in Future]
Most Star Trek races.
Most Babylon 5 races. (Mimbari/Drakh could be higher.)
Battlestar Galactica?
Cybermen?
Most stuff in Star Fox.

Low (Wait, is this really science fiction?) [Present Day or Less]
Ewoks

That's all I got.

Define small reference pool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmallReferencePools) :smallamused:


Brin's Uplift Saga - tech high, longevity mid
Baxter's Xeelee Sequence - (Xeelee) god/god, (humans) top/top
E.E.Smith's Lensman series - top/top
Poul Anderson's Flandry of Terra series - high/high
Neal Asher's Cormac/Polity series - mid-high/mid
Cordwainer Smith's Instrumentality stories - high/mid
Dan Simmons Hyperion Cantos or Ilium/Troy - high-god/mid
Asimov's Robots/Empire stories - high/mid
Clarke's 2001 or Rama stories - <edit> god/top-god
K.S.Robinson's Mars trilogy - high/mid

The Glyphstone
2009-05-20, 08:16 AM
Weber's Honorverse: somewhere around the lower end of the High tier. It's not terribly emphasized in favor of the space battles, but the way they just casually give the finger to the laws of gravity, not to mention their weapons technology and the life-extension treatments, are quite advanced.

Llama231
2009-05-20, 08:48 AM
I added another tier between Middle and Low, and sent Low down to bottom.


Define small reference pool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmallReferencePools) :smallamused:


Brin's Uplift Saga - tech high, longevity mid
Baxter's Xeelee Sequence - (Xeelee) god/god, (humans) top/top
E.E.Smith's Lensman series - top/top (added)
Poul Anderson's Flandry of Terra series - high/high
Neal Asher's Cormac/Polity series - mid/mid (added)
Cordwainer Smith's Instrumentality stories - high/mid
Dan Simmons Hyperion Cantos or Ilium/Troy - mid/high-god
Asimov's Robots/Empire stories - high/mid
Clarke's 2001 or Rama stories - mid/top-god
K.S.Robinson's Mars trilogy - high/mid



I have no idea how to add some of these.

SITB
2009-05-20, 09:51 AM
Asimov's Robots/Empire stories - high/mid


I'd argue that the Foundation post-Gaia is definately high, bordering on top.

Man and Multivax in The Last Question (http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html) are obviously God.

Dervag
2009-05-20, 10:18 AM
In Star Trek, they go to warp all the frickin' time. They fight at warp speeds. This is why I think people say FTL is "more casual." In Star Wars, it's a big deal the first time they jump into hyperspace. Han and Luke have a whole argument about how scary it is. I think it's implied that the individual freighter captains are putting quite a bit on the line when they jump into hyperspace.I think you misunderstood what was happening. Han and Luke aren't arguing about whether "going into hyperspace is a good idea;" Han was hired specifically to take them to a distant star system in a trip that would absolutely require the use of hyperdrive.

No, Luke was arguing that Han was taking too long to go into hyperspace, and Han was arguing that he had to take the time to get the math right, because hyperspace travel is dangerous without proper calculations.

At no time in the entire series do we see anyone express any doubts about the safety or wisdom of jumping to hyperspace. They may need a few minutes to do the math before taking a hyperspace jump, but given the enormous mobility those jumps give them, the travel is very fast.

Moreover, it is very safe. At no time in the movies and on precious few occasions in associated media do we see anything actually going wrong with hyperspace navigation. The hyperdrive may be damaged and not working, but if it works at all it will perform precisely as advertised.

And, to cap it all off, Star Wars hyperdrive-capable ships are cheap enough that an individual can plausibly buy one. Remember in the first movie; Luke sells his speeder to hire Han Solo's ship, and when Han names his price Luke says "we could practically buy our own ship for that much." Given that neither of them is super-rich, that says a lot about the availability of FTL travel in the setting.
_____


I think it would be more appropriate to compare the top warp speed of Star Trek with the top normal space speed of Star Wars, since warping Star Trek ships stay in normal space, whereas Star Wars ships don't.Wait... what? So we just ignore Star Wars ships darting across the galaxy at will because...

I do not understand this at all.
_____


I always thought replicators and holodecks were simply mental trickery. Kinda like The Matrix. If you die in the Matrix, you die in real life, because your brain thinks you're dead. Same principle.First of all, replicators produce food people can eat without starving to death, which requires that the food be more than just a trick; it actually has to exist.

Secondly, think about the implications of what you said. You're saying that in Star Trek, machines exist that can create perfectly convincing illusions without any serious human input. That puts their control and understanding of mental forces at a very high level.

I consider replicators to be an example of advanced Federation industrial technology, although it seems like a "cottage industry" kind of tool. I've never heard anything that leads me to think of it as being some kind of psychic effect.

Eldan
2009-05-20, 01:52 PM
Since I'm a Reynolds Fanboy:

The Conjoiners are probably on the lower end of High. The problem is, the entire human factions in those books lose and gain technologies all the time... if they had their nanotech without the plague, their drives, the Exordium, Inertia Supression and the Hell Class weapons at the same time, they would make a good High level.

On the other hand, the Inhibitors are pretty good top tiers.

hamishspence
2009-05-20, 02:16 PM
most obvious EU novel example- Outbound Flight- "Runaway hyperdrive" it trapped the ship in hyperspace for a medium period, at exceptional speed. They managed to fix it.

There are references to "hyper-rapture" people going crazy from looking into hyperspace too long.

The novels slow hyperspace down a bit "on the other side of the galaxy by now" is hyperbole. Sample figures include 1/2 light year in 10 minutes (3 light years per hour) for an X wing or a Star Destroyer at cruising speed,

127 light years per hour for a star destroyer going really fast- outer limits of safe speeds.

Still pretty fast though.

Verruckt
2009-05-20, 03:07 PM
Llama, I mis-typed, That should be Reapers not Reavers in the God Tier, and they're from Mass Effect.

Reavers from Firefly on the other hand belong in low tier.

Emperor Ing
2009-05-20, 05:11 PM
I believe the Dune-iverse deserves a mention, probably Top or High Tier.
Mainly, for their mentally controlled weather-controlling satellites, read-the-minds-of-the-dead probes, fish-men that can tear space and time asunder with their minds, (Guild Steersmen), and Face Dancers. Nuf said. :smalltongue:

Eldan
2009-05-20, 05:17 PM
I don't know about Dune... while they have very, very powerful individuals, their general tech level doesn't actually seem to be above medium to high.

Emperor Ing
2009-05-20, 05:19 PM
In God Emperor and Heretics, you learn about some pretty crazy advanced techologies.

Eldan
2009-05-20, 05:24 PM
I know, I mean, I read all the books, but compared to some stuff on that list, especially the stuff on high, it's still not that impressive.

Mando Knight
2009-05-20, 05:27 PM
The novels slow hyperspace down a bit "on the other side of the galaxy by now" is hyperbole. Sample figures include 1/2 light year in 10 minutes (3 light years per hour) for an X wing or a Star Destroyer at cruising speed,

127 light years per hour for a star destroyer going really fast- outer limits of safe speeds.

Still pretty fast though.

Which novels? Where are you getting these numbers?

An ISD isn't a slow ship (using the then-military standard Class 2 hyperdrive), and is roughly as fast as the ships we have seen darting across the galaxy willy-nilly: the Jedi Starfighters (Jumped from Coruscant to the Outer Rim worlds of Kamino and Geonosis within a single movie) and Queen Amidala's royal ship (which jumped from the rim world Naboo to Tatooine (another rim world) to Coruscant (a core world), then back to Naboo again with little time passing).

In fact, the main reason why Solo was nervous about jumping in the original trilogy was that the Falcon had an experimental, jury-rigged hyperdrive that was relatively unstable.

Dervag
2009-05-20, 05:35 PM
most obvious EU novel example- Outbound Flight- "Runaway hyperdrive" it trapped the ship in hyperspace for a medium period, at exceptional speed. They managed to fix it.

There are references to "hyper-rapture" people going crazy from looking into hyperspace too long.

The novels slow hyperspace down a bit "on the other side of the galaxy by now" is hyperbole. Sample figures include 1/2 light year in 10 minutes (3 light years per hour) for an X wing or a Star Destroyer at cruising speed,

127 light years per hour for a star destroyer going really fast- outer limits of safe speeds.

Still pretty fast though.At that speeds, crossing half the galaxy would take... about two weeks.

And it's strongly implied that the Millenium Falcon is much faster than an Imperial Star Destroyer.
_____

Jumps taking a few days to cover a large fraction of the galaxy would be fairly consistent with the movie timelines. Hyperspace jumps definitely don't take negligible time to cover galactic-scale differences; as an example, the jump from Tatooine to Alderaan took long enough for Obi-Wan to instruct Luke in at least the rudiments of the Force.

Emperor Ing
2009-05-20, 05:45 PM
I know, I mean, I read all the books, but compared to some stuff on that list, especially the stuff on high, it's still not that impressive.

he put Star Wars at 2nd highest tier, despite them clearly being at a technological dead-end with maybe the occasional technological advance. :smalltongue:

Basically, I believe that between Axliol (spelling?) tanks, machines that can operate on a person's thought, and can even traverse time and space (ixian nagivation device), they should at least go on High Tier, but I would personally think they deserve Top Tier.

skywalker
2009-05-20, 05:47 PM
I think you misunderstood what was happening. Han and Luke aren't arguing about whether "going into hyperspace is a good idea;" Han was hired specifically to take them to a distant star system in a trip that would absolutely require the use of hyperdrive.

No, Luke was arguing that Han was taking too long to go into hyperspace, and Han was arguing that he had to take the time to get the math right, because hyperspace travel is dangerous without proper calculations.

At no time in the entire series do we see anyone express any doubts about the safety or wisdom of jumping to hyperspace. They may need a few minutes to do the math before taking a hyperspace jump, but given the enormous mobility those jumps give them, the travel is very fast.

Moreover, it is very safe. At no time in the movies and on precious few occasions in associated media do we see anything actually going wrong with hyperspace navigation. The hyperdrive may be damaged and not working, but if it works at all it will perform precisely as advertised.

And, to cap it all off, Star Wars hyperdrive-capable ships are cheap enough that an individual can plausibly buy one. Remember in the first movie; Luke sells his speeder to hire Han Solo's ship, and when Han names his price Luke says "we could practically buy our own ship for that much." Given that neither of them is super-rich, that says a lot about the availability of FTL travel in the setting.

My point was that it still is dangerous, and accepted to be so. Han explains just how dangerous it is. The speeder sold for fairly little, from what I remember, and Luke easily could've been exaggerating. Also remember that the speeder didn't cover the cost of the trip. The bulk of payment was due on arrival on Alderaan.


Wait... what? So we just ignore Star Wars ships darting across the galaxy at will because...

I do not understand this at all.

Star Wars ships are darting across the galaxy in subspace. They are leaving normal space. While I don't argue that this is more advanced than warp drive, I do think comparing warp drive and hyperdrive is like comparing apples and oranges since a ship using warp drive does not leave normal space. Comparing the top normal space speeds of Star Wars and the top normal space speeds of Star Trek seems to give a more accurate comparison of the relative engine technology. Star Trek have very little in the way of technology that leave normal space. While Star Wars leaving normal space is a clear indicator of higher technology, it is a completely different technology from warp technology. I'm saying that as far as real-space engines go, Star Trek's seem to be more advanced than those of Star Wars.


First of all, replicators produce food people can eat without starving to death, which requires that the food be more than just a trick; it actually has to exist.

Secondly, think about the implications of what you said. You're saying that in Star Trek, machines exist that can create perfectly convincing illusions without any serious human input. That puts their control and understanding of mental forces at a very high level.

I consider replicators to be an example of advanced Federation industrial technology, although it seems like a "cottage industry" kind of tool. I've never heard anything that leads me to think of it as being some kind of psychic effect.

You're right there. I never really thought about it. It just seemed too far-fetched to say that they could molecularly construct even something as simple as a cup of tea.

All of these things are just plot devices, tho. It's all just designed to tell a story conveniently (I'm a silly liberal arts major).

Philistine
2009-05-20, 06:03 PM
Movies > EU - otherwise we get silliness like "a mere 3 million clone troopers were sufficient to restore, then maintain, order in a galaxy with tens of thousands of settled planets."* And in the movies, we see starships - including massive capital ships, converted civilian freighters, and small, one-man starfighters - crossing nearly 1/4 of the galactic disk in a single hop from Sullust to Endor, quickly enough that the fighters are expected to swing straight into combat against the second Death Star after emerging from the jump.


* See Dooku's line in AotC about bringing "ten thousand systems" into the war on the Separatist side. Even if there were only ten thousand systems in the SW galaxy - less than the minimum established by that statement - 3 million troopers works out to a mere 3 hundred troops per planet. Then consider the numbers of troops fielded by various participants in WW2, none of which commanded the resources of an entire planet. It's not just silly, it's very silly indeed.


EDIT: Regarding "subspace." Even IF the distinction between space and "subspace" propulsion were valid - which I dispute, as I think the far more important thing is that they do reach their destinations, and quickly too! - there's also the example of the Millenium Falcon (and Slave One) in TESB. The Falcon made an interstellar trip from Hoth to Bespin, without hyperdrive, fast enough that the occupants didn't starve to death on the way. That puts their non-hyperspace speed in the same category as Warp drive.

skywalker
2009-05-20, 06:28 PM
Movies > EU - otherwise we get silliness like "a mere 3 million clone troopers were sufficient to restore, then maintain, order in a galaxy with tens of thousands of settled planets."* And in the movies, we see starships - including massive capital ships, converted civilian freighters, and small, one-man starfighters - crossing nearly 1/4 of the galactic disk in a single hop from Sullust to Endor, quickly enough that the fighters are expected to swing straight into combat against the second Death Star after emerging from the jump.

Without the EU, we have no idea where Sullust is.

Sullust could very well be right next door to Endor (I mean, as close as Proxima Centauri) for all we know.

GoC
2009-05-20, 06:29 PM
Reavers are God tier, they are a species of super heavy battleships that can mind control people. Lack of FTL might just make them Top though.
I'd disagree strongly there. The average civilian must be a god for this to be true.
While this is true of the Fleetmind, Culture, Q and Silver Age Kryptonians (purely due to sups reshaping planets...) it isn't true for pretty much anything else.

Also, why is the covenant over the ST Federation?:smallconfused:

You can meassure technology by energy output and speed or by the variety of effects they can create. If you meassure that way then the Fed is top tier while several other go down a bit (such as star wars).

Oh yeah, the latest Star Trek film has really increased FLT speed. It's now even better than Star Wars.

chiasaur11
2009-05-20, 09:42 PM
he put Star Wars at 2nd highest tier, despite them clearly being at a technological dead-end with maybe the occasional technological advance. :smalltongue:


That one's easy to explain.

Once Revan built HK-47, pretty much everybody looked at the guy and realized technology just didn't get better than that.

And once our boy 47 got his army of 51s, whelp everyone who had doubts on the matter... had a change of heart.

Torchship
2009-05-20, 10:11 PM
Since I'm a Reynolds Fanboy:

The Conjoiners are probably on the lower end of High. The problem is, the entire human factions in those books lose and gain technologies all the time... if they had their nanotech without the plague, their drives, the Exordium, Inertia Supression and the Hell Class weapons at the same time, they would make a good High level.

On the other hand, the Inhibitors are pretty good top tiers.

Depends what you're talking about when you say 'Conjoiners', really. The main body of the faction, at the point where they all nicked off, is probably only a high mid, while Skade's fleet likely qualifies as a high. The rest of humanity ('sides the Nostalgia for Infinity and the Zodiacal Light) are only a mid-level civ, while those two ships probably form a very, very small high-level civilization all by themselves. The Inhibitors are, of course, a top-tier.

Where would the Photino Birds fit into this scale? They don't seem to have any actual technology, but they did beat the Xeelee, who are most definitely god-tier...

kpenguin
2009-05-20, 10:16 PM
Do the Stargate Ancients/Alterans/Ori/etc. count for God Tier post-ascension?

Llama231
2009-05-21, 09:04 AM
Updated.

I do not see how the new Star trek movie has such fast transportation. Is it that Earth and Vulcan are really far apart, or something? I don't remember seeing any galaxy crossing, etc.:smallconfused:

factotum
2009-05-21, 09:41 AM
My point was that it still is dangerous, and accepted to be so. Han explains just how dangerous it is. The speeder sold for fairly little, from what I remember, and Luke easily could've been exaggerating. Also remember that the speeder didn't cover the cost of the trip. The bulk of payment was due on arrival on Alderaan.


Han explains how dangerous it is to go into hyperspace without first having done the requisite calculations. As far as we know Star Trek ships don't have that initial delay, so they get an advantage--for about 2 minutes. As soon as the Star Wars ship starts moving, it'll pass the ST ship in seconds.

As for the other point, Luke sold his speeder for enough to cover the 2,000 credit deposit on the trip. Han asked for 10,000, which is the amount Luke said "We could nearly buy our own ship for that!". This suggests that an FTL-capable ship can be bought for maybe 6 or 7 times the amount of money that a small personal speeder costs--furthermore, a small personal speeder that is apparently "not in demand" due to a newer model having come out. That's not a lot of money, I reckon.

Dervag
2009-05-21, 11:08 AM
he put Star Wars at 2nd highest tier, despite them clearly being at a technological dead-end with maybe the occasional technological advance. :smalltongue:Whilethey may not be discovering new technology, that doesn't mean the technology they have is low. It's quite possible that in Star Wars, all the fundamental scientific discoveries that exist in-setting have already been made, such that the only way to improve technology is with small, incremental advances within well known physical limits. Moreover, they've had thousands of years to make those advances.

So it may well be that in the Star Wars universe, the reason technological advance is slow is that almost everything that can be invented really has been invented.
__________


My point was that it still is dangerous, and accepted to be so. Han explains just how dangerous it is. The speeder sold for fairly little, from what I remember, and Luke easily could've been exaggerating. Also remember that the speeder didn't cover the cost of the trip. The bulk of payment was due on arrival on Alderaan.The danger Han described is the risk of travelling without doing the math first. Jumping into hyperspace without making calculations to see where you're going is dangerous. That doesn't mean that hyperspace travel itself is dangerous.

By analogy: flying without instruments when you can't see what's in front of you is suicide. This does not mean it is unsafe to fly. The dangers of flying are largely removed when you use instruments properly and take precautions. Likewise the dangers of Star Wars hyperspace travel. So calling it "dangerous" is inaccurate. It's only dangerous if you don't look where you're going, and almost any form of travel will be dangerous in that condition.
________


Star Wars ships are darting across the galaxy in subspace. They are leaving normal space. While I don't argue that this is more advanced than warp drive, I do think comparing warp drive and hyperdrive is like comparing apples and oranges since a ship using warp drive does not leave normal space. Comparing the top normal space speeds of Star Wars and the top normal space speeds of Star Trek seems to give a more accurate comparison of the relative engine technology. Star Trek have very little in the way of technology that leave normal space. While Star Wars leaving normal space is a clear indicator of higher technology, it is a completely different technology from warp technology. I'm saying that as far as real-space engines go, Star Trek's seem to be more advanced than those of Star Wars.If Star Wars has a functional technology that lets them travel interstellar distances much faster than any corresponding technology in Star Trek, does it matter how the result is achieved?

By the same argument, you could claim that technology hasn't advanced much in the past 100 years because we can't make much better horse-drawn carts now than we could then. The horse-drawn cart was important technology 100 years ago, but it has since become obsolete, because cars are better. Horsecart technology hasn't advanced much, because nobody cares about it any more. Getting slight improvements in horsecarts won't make them competitive with cars and trucks.

Likewise, it doesn't matter whether anyone in the Star Wars universe can build a Trek-style warp drive, because their existing hyperdrives are much better for the purpose the warp drive originally served. Even if they had warp drives at some time in the past, they would now have no real reason to use them because hyperdrive gets them where they want to go so much faster.


You're right there. I never really thought about it. It just seemed too far-fetched to say that they could molecularly construct even something as simple as a cup of tea.In terms of physics, it's no more and no less probable than faster-than-light travel.
___________


Oh yeah, the latest Star Trek film has really increased FLT speed. It's now even better than Star Wars.How did you deduce that?

Connington
2009-05-21, 11:23 AM
You probably want to bump Firefly's Alliance down to low. They don't even have FTL.

TengYt
2009-05-21, 06:12 PM
How about Red Dwarf? Such things featured in Red Dwarf are time travel, the ability to visit alternate dimensions/other realities, something that can turn a chicken vindaloo into a monsterous alien killer, and a machine that allows you to visit the time/place of any photograph.

Llama231
2009-05-21, 06:27 PM
How about Red Dwarf? Such things featured in Red Dwarf are time travel, the ability to visit alternate dimensions/other realities, something that can turn a chicken vindaloo into a monsterous alien killer, and a machine that allows you to visit the time/place of any photograph.

I would guess high, maybe top or middle.

RandomLogic
2009-05-21, 07:01 PM
At that speeds, crossing half the galaxy would take... about two weeks.

And it's strongly implied that the Millenium Falcon is much faster than an Imperial Star Destroyer.


No. The Milky Way galaxy is 100,000 light years across. At 127 Ly/hour its 787 hours or 32 days.

The known universe is 93 billion light years across. Meaning your trip takes 30511811 days.

My apologies for bringing concrete math into a sci-fi discussion ;)

chiasaur11
2009-05-21, 07:13 PM
No. The Milky Way galaxy is 100,000 light years across. At 127 Ly/hour its 787 hours or 32 days.

The known universe is 93 billion light years across. Meaning your trip takes 30511811 days.

My apologies for bringing concrete math into a sci-fi discussion ;)

You explain how 2 and 2 make five, then we can talk math.

zyphyr
2009-05-21, 07:34 PM
No. The Milky Way galaxy is 100,000 light years across. At 127 Ly/hour its 787 hours or 32 days.

The known universe is 93 billion light years across. Meaning your trip takes 30511811 days.

My apologies for bringing concrete math into a sci-fi discussion ;)

If crossing the galaxy takes 32 days, then crossing half the galaxy (as specified in the post you are 'correcting') would be 16 days. Quite in line with the "about two weeks" specified.

Isn't it fun when your 'correction' actually supports instead of refutes the point?

Mando Knight
2009-05-21, 11:39 PM
EDIT: Regarding "subspace." Even IF the distinction between space and "subspace" propulsion were valid - which I dispute, as I think the far more important thing is that they do reach their destinations, and quickly too! - there's also the example of the Millenium Falcon (and Slave One) in TESB. The Falcon made an interstellar trip from Hoth to Bespin, without hyperdrive, fast enough that the occupants didn't starve to death on the way. That puts their non-hyperspace speed in the same category as Warp drive.

I was wondering about that myself... and then I remembered that some ships have backup hyperdrives. According to Wookieepedia (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Millennium_Falcon), the Falcon is one of them... but as it's only a Class 10 (i.e. really really slow), the need for stealth remains since it can be outrun by almost any interstellar ship in the sector.

skywalker
2009-05-22, 01:36 AM
The danger Han described is the risk of travelling without doing the math first. Jumping into hyperspace without making calculations to see where you're going is dangerous. That doesn't mean that hyperspace travel itself is dangerous.

By analogy: flying without instruments when you can't see what's in front of you is suicide. This does not mean it is unsafe to fly. The dangers of flying are largely removed when you use instruments properly and take precautions. Likewise the dangers of Star Wars hyperspace travel. So calling it "dangerous" is inaccurate. It's only dangerous if you don't look where you're going, and almost any form of travel will be dangerous in that condition.

I think comparing Star Wars hyperdrive to human flight is quite apt. I think hyperdrive travel is intended to be similar to early American air-travel, like in the early days of Pan-Am, etc. I think a similar level of danger is there.


If Star Wars has a functional technology that lets them travel interstellar distances much faster than any corresponding technology in Star Trek, does it matter how the result is achieved?

By the same argument, you could claim that technology hasn't advanced much in the past 100 years because we can't make much better horse-drawn carts now than we could then. The horse-drawn cart was important technology 100 years ago, but it has since become obsolete, because cars are better. Horsecart technology hasn't advanced much, because nobody cares about it any more. Getting slight improvements in horsecarts won't make them competitive with cars and trucks.

Likewise, it doesn't matter whether anyone in the Star Wars universe can build a Trek-style warp drive, because their existing hyperdrives are much better for the purpose the warp drive originally served. Even if they had warp drives at some time in the past, they would now have no real reason to use them because hyperdrive gets them where they want to go so much faster.

I think it does matter. In a discussion of overall "technological tiers" I suppose not, but in a discussion of propulsion technology, I'm sure Han would kill to be able to go that fast and stay in normal space. Because he wouldn't have to do the math, or worry about running into something he hadn't planned on being there.

factotum
2009-05-22, 01:53 AM
I think it does matter. In a discussion of overall "technological tiers" I suppose not, but in a discussion of propulsion technology, I'm sure Han would kill to be able to go that fast and stay in normal space. Because he wouldn't have to do the math, or worry about running into something he hadn't planned on being there.

I think the things that Han is running into ARE "normal space" objects ("We could fly right through a star, or pass too close to a supernova"), so again, what's the distinction? In fact, the main reason they have to do all these prepatory calculations is BECAUSE Star Wars ships are so fast--in Star Trek you have hours if not days to spot a potential collision and do something about it, whereas in Star Wars you might only have seconds, and that might not be enough time to avoid the problem.

skywalker
2009-05-22, 02:07 AM
I think the things that Han is running into ARE "normal space" objects ("We could fly right through a star, or pass too close to a supernova"), so again, what's the distinction? In fact, the main reason they have to do all these prepatory calculations is BECAUSE Star Wars ships are so fast--in Star Trek you have hours if not days to spot a potential collision and do something about it, whereas in Star Wars you might only have seconds, and that might not be enough time to avoid the problem.

Han can't see them while he's in... whatever hyperspace is.

Eldan
2009-05-22, 02:56 AM
See, the only question I ever asked my self is why there is a clearly defined top speed. Why can't they just keep on accelerating? It doesn't look like their fuel is running out.

Philistine
2009-05-22, 03:02 AM
What leads you to say that? Such things clearly have effects that project into hyperspace, otherwise there would be no worry about passing near/through them. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that ships have some way of detecting those effects - if they didn't, how would they establish where the safe routes are in the first place? Trial and error? "He can't see them in time to react, due to the ship's very high speed" is a much more reaonable hypothesis.

Dervag
2009-05-22, 03:34 AM
No. The Milky Way galaxy is 100,000 light years across. At 127 Ly/hour its 787 hours or 32 days.Yes, and to cross half of that distance takes half of that time, or sixteen days... which I think I can reasonably call "about two weeks."


The known universe is 93 billion light years across. Meaning your trip takes 30511811 days.Could you give me a citation on that figure? It hasn't been that long since the Big Bang, so I'd be interested to see the math on how the Robertson-Walker metric gives you distances that size.
______


I think comparing Star Wars hyperdrive to human flight is quite apt. I think hyperdrive travel is intended to be similar to early American air-travel, like in the early days of Pan-Am, etc. I think a similar level of danger is there.I cannot for the life of me understand why you would think so, because in Star Wars they've been doing hyperspace travel for millenia. Not decades, millenia. Planets like Naboo? Those are human colony worlds with a history stretching back dozens of centuries, colonized through hyperspace. The wild and crazy mix of aliens in the Mos Eisley cantina? Every one of those must have got there through hyperspace, and no one is surprised to see them.

Every warship is hyperspace capable. Every ship of any kind we see is hyperspace capable. Some of them are old, having taken hundreds of hyperspace jumps without cracking up. Hyperdrive is a mature technology in this setting.

The only thing I've seen so far that can be interpreted as evidence for "hyperspace travel is inherently dangerous" is not evidence at all, to my way of thinking. All Han Solo points out is that it is risky (not suicide, risky) to enter hyperspace without taking a few minutes to see where you're going first. And I have never heard of any form of travel that is safe if you don't bother to look where you're going.
_______


I think it does matter. In a discussion of overall "technological tiers" I suppose not, but in a discussion of propulsion technology, I'm sure Han would kill to be able to go that fast and stay in normal space. Because he wouldn't have to do the math, or worry about running into something he hadn't planned on being there.He'd also take hundreds of times as long to get anywhere.

I'm far less likely to crash into something at fatal speeds if I walk to Albuquerque than if I drive. Walking doesn't put me in any danger of slamming into a tree at sixty miles an hour, because I'm not going at sixty miles an hour. But if I walk to Albuquerque it'll take me at least three months of moderate physical effort; in a car I can do it in three to four days.

Safety isn't everything.

skywalker
2009-05-22, 12:31 PM
What leads you to say that? Such things clearly have effects that project into hyperspace, otherwise there would be no worry about passing near/through them. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that ships have some way of detecting those effects - if they didn't, how would they establish where the safe routes are in the first place? Trial and error? "He can't see them in time to react, due to the ship's very high speed" is a much more reaonable hypothesis.

They can use the charts they have to see where the effects are, and then plot courses around them. Just because the effect is there, doesn't mean you can see it. I also respect your quoted hypothesis, since it was rather clear that he couldn't see that Alderaan wasn't there before they arrived in the system, nor could he see that the Death Star was.


I cannot for the life of me understand why you would think so, because in Star Wars they've been doing hyperspace travel for millenia. Not decades, millenia. Planets like Naboo? Those are human colony worlds with a history stretching back dozens of centuries, colonized through hyperspace. The wild and crazy mix of aliens in the Mos Eisley cantina? Every one of those must have got there through hyperspace, and no one is surprised to see them.

Every warship is hyperspace capable. Every ship of any kind we see is hyperspace capable. Some of them are old, having taken hundreds of hyperspace jumps without cracking up. Hyperdrive is a mature technology in this setting.

The only thing I've seen so far that can be interpreted as evidence for "hyperspace travel is inherently dangerous" is not evidence at all, to my way of thinking. All Han Solo points out is that it is risky (not suicide, risky) to enter hyperspace without taking a few minutes to see where you're going first. And I have never heard of any form of travel that is safe if you don't bother to look where you're going.

It may have been around for a long time, but it is the purview almost exclusively of the rich and the military. A society as large as the Star Wars galaxy has a very large upper class, but they are still the upper class nonetheless. The fact that millions of people have traveled in this way doesn't mean there aren't billions who haven't.


He'd also take hundreds of times as long to get anywhere.

I'm far less likely to crash into something at fatal speeds if I walk to Albuquerque than if I drive. Walking doesn't put me in any danger of slamming into a tree at sixty miles an hour, because I'm not going at sixty miles an hour. But if I walk to Albuquerque it'll take me at least three months of moderate physical effort; in a car I can do it in three to four days.

Safety isn't everything.

A valid point. I was not saying that they would want warp drive for long-distance travel. More like Han would love to have warp engines for zipping around inside the system, etc. Because it's inefficient to hyperjump from Earth to Pluto. But it's not inefficient to warp from one to the other, and you can see that imperial blockade before you get there and decide to turn around.

Dervag
2009-05-22, 01:52 PM
They can use the charts they have to see where the effects are, and then plot courses around them. Just because the effect is there, doesn't mean you can see it. I also respect your quoted hypothesis, since it was rather clear that he couldn't see that Alderaan wasn't there before they arrived in the system, nor could he see that the Death Star was.Remember that hyperdrive travels at many thousands or tens of thousands of times the speed of light. There's a practical limit on how far away you could reasonably hope to detect a planet (or a hole in space where the planet should be, as with Alderaan). And given how fast hyperdrive is, it's quite possible to cover that distance in a matter of milliseconds.

Stars are easier to see, of course.

Moreover, the use of the term "jump" implies that a hyperspace trip gets its impetus all at once, in a single bound. In which case seeing things before you leap into their midst won't help you because your trajectory was set the moment you started. Jumping can be a very safe way to get from one place to another... provided you look before you leap.

_______


It may have been around for a long time, but it is the purview almost exclusively of the rich and the military. A society as large as the Star Wars galaxy has a very large upper class, but they are still the upper class nonetheless. The fact that millions of people have traveled in this way doesn't mean there aren't billions who haven't.Point the first: I see no evidence for this interpretation. While a beggar in the street may not be able to afford their own hyper-capable starship, we know that the price for a (used) starship is within about a factor of ten of the price of a (used) personal speeder, unless Luke Skywalker is lying when he has no reason to do so. Moreover, we know that hyperspace capable refugee transports existed in the Old Republic (Episode II)

Point the second: that applies just as much to warp travel in Star Trek. The vast majority of warp-capable ships we see are military vessels of Starfleet or some alien government; private vessels are generally less capable and slower in FTL. The majority of every intelligent species seems to live on their ancestral homeworld, suggesting that most beings have not traveled between stars. Whereas in Star Wars, we see at least one species (humans) that has spread out over several colony worlds, with routine passenger service between those worlds.
________


A valid point. I was not saying that they would want warp drive for long-distance travel. More like Han would love to have warp engines for zipping around inside the system, etc. Because it's inefficient to hyperjump from Earth to Pluto. But it's not inefficient to warp from one to the other, and you can see that imperial blockade before you get there and decide to turn around.But Han would be a fool to trade his hyperdrive in for a warp drive, because while he might (not necessarily) gain increased performance in normal space, he would lose speed over the long haul by a factor of hundreds or thousands. It would be like trading in a jet airplane for a Segway.

Lord Iames Osari
2009-05-22, 03:18 PM
High Tier (Big Boys) [Couple Hundred to a Thousand(s) of Years]
Borg, Most Super Advanced Star trek Species (Star Trek)
Combine (Half-Life) (Possibly Top)
The Conjoiners (Could be Lower) (Reynolds)
Covenant, other Halo Stuff (Flood could be higher.) (The rest could be lower.)
Dune Possibly Higher)
Federation, Space Pirates (Metroid)
Foundation post-Gaia (Possibly Top Tier)
Honor Harrington universe
Most stuff in the Schlock Mercenary universe.
Necrons, Eldar (Warhammer 40k) (Possibly Top Tier)
Weber's Honorverse (Possibly Middle Tier)

The two I bolded are the same universe.

Talkkno
2009-05-22, 05:54 PM
It may have been around for a long time, but it is the purview almost exclusively of the rich and the military. A society as large as the Star Wars galaxy has a very large upper class, but they are still the upper class nonetheless. The fact that millions of people have traveled in this way doesn't mean there aren't billions who haven't.

Case in point, Han Solo isn't rich by any stretch of imagination and he owns one of the fastest hyperdrives in the galaxy. The fact that hyperdrives can be ad hoced repaired by Han Solo, who has no technical training indicates that it is a mature and commonly used technology.

Llama231
2009-05-22, 06:08 PM
The two I bolded are the same universe.

*goes to fix*

Lord Iames Osari
2009-05-22, 06:36 PM
Case in point, Han Solo isn't rich by any stretch of imagination and he owns one of the fastest hyperdrives in the galaxy. The fact that hyperdrives can be ad hoced repaired by Han Solo, who has no technical training indicates that it is a mature and commonly used technology.

Actually, I'd say Han does have technical training, based on the fact that he can repair the Falcon.

GoC
2009-05-22, 07:55 PM
How did you deduce that?
5 minutes to get from earth to vulcan.

Verruckt
2009-05-23, 09:29 AM
The only thing I've seen so far that can be interpreted as evidence for "hyperspace travel is inherently dangerous" is not evidence at all, to my way of thinking. All Han Solo points out is that it is risky (not suicide, risky) to enter hyperspace without taking a few minutes to see where you're going first. And I have never heard of any form of travel that is safe if you don't bother to look where you're going.

This, well, pretty much anyway. Blind hyperspace jump is risky, very risky. I can't quote you the source but one of the EU books and I'm sure one of the "Essential guide to..." books mentions scouting new hyperspace routes to be very dangerous because without a set route you might accidently travel through a sun or pop out inside the mantle of a planet.

Really though, as far as space travel goes Starwars is by far one of the most casual settings. A few minutes or seconds as the plot demands are all it takes to spin up your mystical zoom-across-the-galaxy drive and away you go. As opposed to the likes of 40k, where you can spend a week charting your path through the Warp for maximum safety, expending the lives of two gifted psykers in the process, and as soon as you transition into the warp a three month journey suddenly takes 2 days and just before you arrive you get eaten by daemons.

GolemsVoice
2009-05-23, 12:57 PM
Where do you think Starcraft would rank?
I'd say Terrans probably lower middle or upper lower tier. They are able to make warp jumps, as far as I know without risks, and at least every capital ship, and I believe even small fighter crafts are capable of jumping. The have some very advanced technology, like the ghosts, or the battlecruisers, but their overall technology sems more like modern-day earth technology+maybe 50-100 years.
Protoss definitely upper middle tier. Every single member of their race is able to manifest psychic powers and shape them, they warp buildings across the galaxy like nobody's business, and generally show some pretty advanced technology, though of course none of the top-level stuff.

Dervag
2009-05-23, 05:17 PM
Case in point, Han Solo isn't rich by any stretch of imagination and he owns one of the fastest hyperdrives in the galaxy. The fact that hyperdrives can be ad hoced repaired by Han Solo, who has no technical training indicates that it is a mature and commonly used technology.Ah... based on his background, he does have quite a bit of "technical training" in starship technology; he's been working in and with them for practically his entire adult life.

That said, the fact that one man with no outside funding can finance his own starship (even if only by resorting to the black market), and that random junk dealers have parts suitable for a starship fit for use as a royal yacht (Episode I) tends to indicate that you're right.
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5 minutes to get from earth to vulcan.When does it take five minutes to go from Earth to Vulcan? I seem to recall the scene cuts during the trip to Vulcan strongly implying that time was passing between (some of the) scenes.

Five minutes of screen time does not mean five minutes of time in the movie.

Talkkno
2009-05-23, 06:25 PM
Really though, as far as space travel goes Starwars is by far one of the most casual settings. A few minutes or seconds as the plot demands are all it takes to spin up your mystical zoom-across-the-galaxy drive and away you go. As opposed to the likes of 40k, where you can spend a week charting your path through the Warp for maximum safety, expending the lives of two gifted psykers in the process, and as soon as you transition into the warp a three month journey suddenly takes 2 days and just before you arrive you get eaten by daemons.

Thats false, in Caves of Ice, Ciaphas Cain's troopship did not have a navigator and made to their destination within the projected time. Abd you cant you use the power of the plot to dismiss all evidence. Why don't you give us some acutaul evidence?

chiasaur11
2009-05-23, 06:36 PM
Thats false, in Caves of Ice, Ciaphas Cain's troopship did not have a navigator and made to their destination within the projected time. Abd you cant you use the power of the plot to dismiss all evidence. Why don't you give us some acutaul evidence?

Well, the ship had better protection than a navigator.

It had CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM aboard.

If that isn't proof against any of the depredations of Chaos, what is?

DarthArminius
2009-05-23, 06:53 PM
Shinra would probably be high-mid tier, wouldn't it?

GoC
2009-05-23, 10:02 PM
When does it take five minutes to go from Earth to Vulcan? I seem to recall the scene cuts during the trip to Vulcan strongly implying that time was passing between (some of the) scenes.

Five minutes of screen time does not mean five minutes of time in the movie.

Sulu says "engines at maximum warp captain" then Chekov gives the mission briefing and says they'll be arriving in 3 minutes.
Unless you wish to argue that it takes quite a while to go to maximum warp AND argue that they spent that time twiddling their fingers instead of giving the briefing then it takes less than five minutes to get to Vulcan.

factotum
2009-05-24, 12:48 AM
The problem there is that Star Trek ships always travel at the speed of plot, whatever the technical manuals etc. say. For instance, in Star Trek V the Enterprise travels from the vicinity of Earth to somewhere near the centre of the galaxy in a couple of days, which implies a speed of several million times the speed of light; yet in DS9 and Voyager it is consistently stated that a Federation starship of that era (which are generally more advanced than the original series version) would take 70 years to fly across the galaxy, putting the speed at more like 1000x the speed of light--which, coincidentally, is what the technical manuals say they do.

Besides, the movie is contradicting ITSELF to some extent there, because if Star Trek warp drive was that fast, how on earth could Spock not have reached the exploding star in time to save Romulus? No wonder Nero thinks it's all a Federation plot!

Dervag
2009-05-24, 02:29 AM
Thats false, in Caves of Ice, Ciaphas Cain's troopship did not have a navigator and made to their destination within the projected time. Abd you cant you use the power of the plot to dismiss all evidence. Why don't you give us some acutaul evidence?You're being overliteral.

It's well established in Warhammer 40000 that warp travel is dangerous and unreliable; ships that go in may not come out. Ships that go in may come out before they arrived, or decades after they were supposed to arrive, or many light years off course.

So even if a ship can sometimes get things right and make its run on schedule (especially over short distances), the general reality in-setting is that it's a risky business and you need good navigators if you want to do much warp travel and stay alive.
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Sulu says "engines at maximum warp captain" then Chekov gives the mission briefing and says they'll be arriving in 3 minutes.
Unless you wish to argue that it takes quite a while to go to maximum warp AND argue that they spent that time twiddling their fingers instead of giving the briefing then it takes less than five minutes to get to Vulcan.Which isn't enough time for Kirk to stagger into sick bay, pass out, and regain consciousness.

So I'm going to have to argue that Chekov's briefing doesn't come until late in the flight. I don't know how long it took to reach maximum warp; the fact that Sulu says it doesn't mean they only just achieved it.

GoC
2009-05-24, 03:20 AM
Which isn't enough time for Kirk to stagger into sick bay, pass out, and regain consciousness.
It's likely that Kirk started walking to sickbay well before they went to warp. How long do you think he was passed out?


I don't know how long it took to reach maximum warp; the fact that Sulu says it doesn't mean they only just achieved it.
Sulu turns around and says in an "This just happened" voice: "Engines at maximum warp, captain."
Arguing otherwise is really stretching.

Dervag
2009-05-24, 01:27 PM
It's likely that Kirk started walking to sickbay well before they went to warp. How long do you think he was passed out?I don't know, but I strongly suspect the interval of time was "more than two or three minutes."


Sulu turns around and says in an "This just happened" voice: "Engines at maximum warp, captain."
Arguing otherwise is really stretching.OK, but... that raises another question.

It's pretty clear that when Spock maroons Kirk on Delta Vega, he has time to get knocked out (for the second time; this Kirk seems to have about the same concussion-resistance as the original), come to, dig his way out of the space capsule, wander for a mile or two across the ice, get chased by an improbable ice-monster, flee into a cave, get the backstory from Spock-prime, travel several miles to the Federation outpost, meet Scotty, and beam back on board the Enterprise...

...all while Spock is travelling from the ruins of Vulcan to whatever planet the rest of the fleet is orbiting. And (this is important) he does all this before Nero can reach Earth and launch his attack.

There is no plausible way for all that to take less than several hours. Especially the parts where two men, one of them in advanced old age, travel something like ten kilometers or more across rough, frozen terrain.

If warp drive were as fast as you say, by the time Kirk was in any position to get back to the Enterprise, Earth would have long since been destroyed by Nero.

lisiecki
2009-05-27, 10:39 PM
How about Red Dwarf? Such things featured in Red Dwarf are time travel, the ability to visit alternate dimensions/other realities, something that can turn a chicken vindaloo into a monsterous alien killer, and a machine that allows you to visit the time/place of any photograph.

Ya, but there's no "Soceity" in Red Dwarf.
There's four "people"

chiasaur11
2009-05-27, 11:51 PM
Ya, but there's no "Soceity" in Red Dwarf.
There's four "people"

They all come from diverse backgrounds, have shared history, shared goals, and hate each other.

Sounds like a society to me!

lisiecki
2009-05-28, 12:44 AM
They all come from diverse backgrounds, have shared history, shared goals, and hate each other.

Sounds like a society to me!

you make a very convincing point.
Still, Im going with "low" tech for them, as none of them have any idea how to use there stuff

grolim
2009-05-28, 01:20 PM
Here is one I haven't seen mentioned. What about the Commonwealth in Amdromeda pre-fall? No shields, but they routinely travel across 3 different galaxies, and make bombs that blow up whole stars.

Dervag
2009-05-28, 04:56 PM
Quite high.

Energy shields are a specific technology that we can imagine existing, but which need not exist. Since the possibility of creating them varies from fictional 'verse to 'verse, a setting without energy shields may be just as advanced as one with them. It's just that in the first setting, the laws of nature don't allow them to work.

hanzo66
2009-05-28, 10:00 PM
Honestly, given that the stated "High" tiers include the ones from Halo, I'd say that the Imperium and the Tau are rather definitely high tier, and the Eldar and Necrons may very well be top, since they have technology at least as good as Star Wars.

I guess so, since it seems that the Covenant and the Tau are kind of the same thing, only with more Close-range capabilities.

Mando Knight
2009-05-28, 11:13 PM
Quite high.

Energy shields are a specific technology that we can imagine existing, but which need not exist. Since the possibility of creating them varies from fictional 'verse to 'verse, a setting without energy shields may be just as advanced as one with them. It's just that in the first setting, the laws of nature don't allow them to work.

Or else the enemies they're fighting all have mass driver and missile weapons, so they invested in armor and point-defense systems...

...Or at least, that's how it would work in Gal Civ II...

imp_fireball
2009-06-01, 04:24 AM
There's plenty of races forgotten here -

- Xel'naga
- Zerg
- The Machines (Matrix)
- The reapers (mass effect)
- The Precursors (halo)
- The Forerunners (halo)
- The slugs (orphanage)
- The freds (doom)
- Newbies (doom)
- Everything from hitchhikers guide to the galaxy
- Terran Federation in SST
- Klendathu in SST
- Skinnies in SST
- Empires of Eve Universe (Eve Online)
- Homeworld races
- Command and Conquor factions/species
- Aliens in Alien series
- Predators
- Megacorporation-whatever in deadspace

And about a million others. If you want to create a definitive tier based system, use technology and by that I mean technology in strict wikipedia defined terms. 'Power' is by no means measurable.

If your goal to rid campaigns of the icky progress levels representative of d20 future, then by all means keep expanding the list.

I think technology could work equally well alongside other elements such as magic and psionics (any of which can be included/excluded) in D&D - yep, I'm tooting my horn as usual.

Dispozition
2009-06-01, 04:55 AM
I'll put my 2 cents on star wars in here...I've read the X-Wing series EU books and own all the fact files...So everything I know is canon :P
If I repeat any points already made in this thread, excuse me, I skipped over the larger bodies of text on my way to the 4th page, but I read the gist of it...

The Millenium Falcon is one of the fastest ships in the star ways universe, partially because of size, partially because of engine. The reason that it can cut parsecs of courses is because of it's speed. Speed in hyperspace = faster traveling as well as shorter routes. Gravity well will automatically pull ships out of hyperspace, such wells are caused by planets, suns, and other such things. The faster you're going, the less effect such wells have on you, so you can skirt closer to suns and the like. Technically, if you went fast enough, you could ignore them all together, but that's impossible with the technology in SW.

Also, on the point of Han being technically proficient, he was a lieutenant in the Imperial Navy, became a smuggler, then becomes a New Republic General. He knows his crap :P

Dervag
2009-06-01, 05:26 AM
Also, on the point of Han being technically proficient, he was a lieutenant in the Imperial Navy, became a smuggler, then becomes a New Republic General. He knows his crap :PAt least when it comes to spacecraft and the care and feeding thereof. Might not be so stellar at other stuff, but that's irrelevant.

Dispozition
2009-06-01, 05:32 AM
At least when it comes to spacecraft and the care and feeding thereof. Might not be so stellar at other stuff, but that's irrelevant.

He seems to be able to keep a wife that's the leader of a Republic, so that's not too bad either :P

pondshadow
2009-06-01, 05:44 AM
What about the world of Neuromancer, I'd say that's mid-low teir

Dervag
2009-06-01, 06:07 AM
Probably. I don't know much about it, but it's set in the near future, right?

Near future stuff tends to be mid-low by default.

WalkingTarget
2009-06-01, 03:11 PM
Probably. I don't know much about it, but it's set in the near future, right?

Near future stuff tends to be mid-low by default.

They've got lots of different cybernetic implants available (including the brain-computer interface to their version of the internet). They can grow customizable organs (that can filter out specific drugs and whatnot). They can download somebody's memories into a solid-state memory device, so you can interact with a simulacrum of a dead person via computer. There's a very small number of sentient AI around. There's a fairly large space station spindle in orbit, but no FTL or anything. They can use portions of the human brain as data storage. There are memory chips with skill sets on them that can be swapped out as needed (think "I know kung-fu" but only until you remove the chip). A few interesting weapons, but nothing too exotic.

Eldan
2009-06-10, 07:32 AM
Another one I just thought about:
Alpha Centauri, any of the factions, near the end-game and Transcendence (which would probably put them on the god tier): High or Top.

Their technology is quite impressive:
Singularity reactors, bombs and rays (:smallconfused:).
Their vehicles don't have armour anymore and instead either employ stasis field to freeze incoming projectiles or probability mechanics to increase the chance that the enemy misses.
They have teleportation technology, both on large scales via jumpgates from city to city and on a small enough scale to mount on vehicles and infantry as upgrades.
Self-aware AIs, gravity control, clinical immortality... the list goes on.
On top of all that, they develop psychic powers, such as telepathy over at least planetary range, lethal psionic attacks and city-wide mind control.

Why do I not just kick them into top tier? Because in the game, they are, as an exception of all the other top tiers, and even high and middle tiers, restricted to a single planet and it's moons. (I don't really know why, they could have at least sent a probe or something back to earth.) Their resources seem extremely limited as well: even though the fundamental forces are pretty much controlled and/or ignored, they still need massive amounts of mining everywhere to get their buildign materials. (This is most likely more of a game constraint than a fluff constraint, but still).

GoC
2009-06-10, 08:43 AM
The MOO2 universe can do all of the above.

Dervag
2009-06-10, 10:25 AM
Why do I not just kick them into top tier? Because in the game, they are, as an exception of all the other top tiers, and even high and middle tiers, restricted to a single planet and it's moons. (I don't really know why, they could have at least sent a probe or something back to earth.)They have no long distance FTL capability...


Their resources seem extremely limited as well: even though the fundamental forces are pretty much controlled and/or ignored, they still need massive amounts of mining everywhere to get their buildign materials. (This is most likely more of a game constraint than a fluff constraint, but still)....and they cannot create matter ex nihilo, despite their control over the fundamental forces of nature.

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri is a good example of a civilization with very advanced science but very limited (by sci-fi standards) resources.

Texas_Ben
2009-06-10, 11:33 AM
Why are the Covenant + Other Halo things listed as being more advanced than Trek? This is a thread about technology level right? While who would win in a *fight* is debateable (as we just had a big thread about it), Trek's tech is most definitely above that of the Haloverse's. All I really feel like I need to say on the matter is Replicators.

The list needs some guidelines, I think. I mean let's just look at what is down for the middle Tier:

The Alliance (Firefly) (Possibly Low)
Neal Asher's Cormac/Polity series
Most Mass Effect Races (Could be High Tier)
Orks (Possibly High or Low Tier) (Warhammer 40k)
Protoss (Starcraft) (Possibly High)
Most Stuff in Star Fox
Most Star Trek Races. (Next generation+)
Tau, Imperium (Warhammer 40k) (Possibly High Tier)
Terrans (Starcraft) (Possibly Low)
Just within that list we range from a bunch of guys with projectile weapons and no FTL (Firefly) to Galaxy-spanning empires with shields, directed energy weapons, and psy powers (The Imperium and Protoss And Trek).

If you're gunna do this you need some hard rules to play by. For example:

Low: No or Limited FTL, Projectile weapons, etc.
Examples: Firefly, Blade Runner, Marathon (The Marathon was sublight wasn't it?), Hard Sci-fi.

Mid: Baseline, Vanilla Generic Sci-Fi. FTL travel, Some neat toys, General tech level is more or less what we have now though.
Examples: Rebooted BSG, Halo's UNSC, Humans in Aliens (Don't remember what they're called), Humans in 40k?

Mid-High: Also your generic sci-fi, except more advanced. FTL is commonplace and you have a lot more neat toys... Directed energy weapons, holograms, etc.
Examples: Trekverse, Star Wars, etc.

Etc.
Because right now the list is all over the place and extremely subjective. Firm up the rules some if you want it to be useful, or at least offer and explaination of why you stick a society into a certain slot.