PDA

View Full Version : Mean Wish Spells



Korivan
2009-05-20, 12:09 AM
If this has been posted let me know, otherwise im sure many of you have seen similar threads elsewhere. Anyways, what is the worst WISH you have ever recieved or been asked for? Feel free to add your opinion why you like or dislike WISH. Without further adu

1. We were getting our buts kicked by the main bad guy, wished to be teleported back to the taveren we started out in, we got there and the place was on fire and we were burned alive.
2. We wished (accidently) for a map of the area. We recieved a sphere with a map on the outside, like a globe, but it was a magical puzzle box, everytime we wanted to use it we had to try to figure out a new combination, we spent the rest of the campaign lost.
3. I wished with a ring that the enemy's commander was disintegrated as per spell, since the description said the ray comes from my hand, it disintegrated my hand.
4. We were surrounded by a large hord of undead immune to our weapons (2nd edition) we wished for a weapon to apear to defeat them. Ground trembled and the Tarsque was running towards us with the sword in its paw...we died.
5. Wished for an uber powerfull sword (like the one broken wish attempt), the sword was sentient and commanded us to kill each other.

there's more but i think you get the hint. Side question, how do you handle wishes? I like making time stop for the individual, they cant affect anything, they make a couple of checks negotioating with the granter of the wish, if they make it they get it, so long as its not broken...i hate it when dms demand a page long list that looks like a lawyer went through it, you know the type, they pervert the wish no matter what.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-20, 12:14 AM
If this has been posted let me know, otherwise im sure many of you have seen similar threads elsewhere. Anyways, what is the worst WISH you have ever recieved or been asked for? Feel free to add your opinion why you like or dislike WISH. Without further adu

1. We were getting our buts kicked by the main bad guy, wished to be teleported back to the taveren we started out in, we got there and the place was on fire and we were burned alive.
2. We wished (accidently) for a map of the area. We recieved a sphere with a map on the outside, like a globe, but it was a magical puzzle box, everytime we wanted to use it we had to try to figure out a new combination, we spent the rest of the campaign lost.
3. I wished with a ring that the enemy's commander was disintegrated as per spell, since the description said the ray comes from my hand, it disintegrated my hand.
4. We were surrounded by a large hord of undead immune to our weapons (2nd edition) we wished for a weapon to apear to defeat them. Ground trembled and the Tarsque was running towards us with the sword in its paw...we died.
5. Wished for an uber powerfull sword (like the one broken wish attempt), the sword was sentient and commanded us to kill each other.

there's more but i think you get the hint. Side question, how do you handle wishes? I like making time stop for the individual, they cant affect anything, they make a couple of checks negotioating with the granter of the wish, if they make it they get it, so long as its not broken...i hate it when dms demand a page long list that looks like a lawyer went through it, you know the type, they pervert the wish no matter what.Assuming all of those without a specific mention are 3.x, the DM was a jackass. All of them except 4 and 5 are well within the listed 'safe effects' of Wish. Even 4 and 5, it just takes more XP.

That said, Wish is poorly balanced. The listed effects are generally too weak for the cost, effects beynd that list are generally beyond broken.

sambo.
2009-05-20, 12:15 AM
Side question, how do you handle wishes? I like making time stop for the individual, they cant affect anything, they make a couple of checks negotioating with the granter of the wish, if they make it they get it, so long as its not broken...i hate it when dms demand a page long list that looks like a lawyer went through it, you know the type, they pervert the wish no matter what.

as a DM, it depends on what players are trying to do with the Wish.

wishing for an all-powerful I-Win-Button sword is just begging me to get devious. making a wish to "redo the last hour" because the party is nearly TPK'd i'd probably allow with a minimum of fusspotting.

one thing i am consistent with is: once you start with "I Wish......" you need to complete the wish straight away (i'll allow some discussion PRIOR to casting the Wish) and if there is some obvious huge hole it it I can turn straight back on the players, i will. if they are reasonable, they'll get it.

your example #4 is something i would probably do to a group that used a wish in such a fashion.

Fan
2009-05-20, 12:19 AM
as a DM, it depends on what players are trying to do with the Wish.

wishing for an all-powerful I-Win-Button sword is just begging me to get devious. making a wish to "redo the last hour" because the party is nearly TPK'd i'd probably allow with a minimum of fusspotting.

one thing i am consistent with is: once you start with "I Wish......" you need to complete the wish straight away (i'll allow some discussion PRIOR to casting the Wish) and if there is some obvious huge hole it it I can turn straight back on the players, i will. if they are reasonable, they'll get it.

your example #4 is something i would probably do to a group that used a wish in such a fashion.

The Tarrasque example was insane. Sending a CR 20 creature at a lower level party that is already in danger, in exchange for THEM expending a 9th level spell slot? Hellz no. I'd be looking for a new DM if that's a regularity.
That, and wishing for a magic item is a stated example, Undead Bane is only a +2 (+3 with requistes) bonus, not game breaking at all considering how situational a bonus it is.

VirOath
2009-05-20, 12:26 AM
Orc warrior picks up the wonderful blade out of the dead Dragon's hoard, smiling with gold lust. You see, on a complete fluke, our ranger killed it outright in one full attack, critting on every strike, so the fight was easy and the reward immense. And what came from the warrior, word for word: "I wish we could do that again."

And the Draco-Lich got up and breathed.


As a general rule, I avoid wishes AND intelligent items. Now, there is always the exception, but if an effect can be duplicated in Core, then use that method. And with the way my DM's handle Wishes, all it EVER takes is the words "I wish...". Sometimes it only needs to be on your person, not wielded or worn. And it's just magic that takes the meaning of your words with us as well.

But getting your hand Disintegrated by your own wish spell? That's a bit much. Most DMs I run with won't try to bork your wish if it's reasonable. But trying to pull off any cheese through it is a bad idea.

lsfreak
2009-05-20, 12:27 AM
Assuming all of those without a specific mention are 3.x, the DM was a jackass.

This. You are replicating a spell for two of them and that has zero potential backlash; the map was even less than the spells. DM's don't get to **** over the players because they used wish, it says right in the spell description what is and what isn't risk.

Jothki
2009-05-20, 12:37 AM
Now, there is always the exception, but if an effect can be duplicated in Core, then use that method.

Isn't part of the purpose (or possibly almost all of the purpose) of Wish to duplicate existing effects without needing to memorize or track down their sources?

For me, beyond the effects specifically allowed, a good guideline for whether a Wish can handle a particular effect is whether a theoretical 8th level arcane spell or 7th level divine spell would be powerful enough to create that effect, whether or not that particular spell actually exists.

BobVosh
2009-05-20, 12:38 AM
Orc warrior picks up the wonderful blade out of the dead Dragon's hoard, smiling with gold lust. You see, on a complete fluke, our ranger killed it outright in one full attack, critting on every strike, so the fight was easy and the reward immense. And what came from the warrior, word for word: "I wish we could do that again."

And the Draco-Lich got up and breathed.


As a general rule, I avoid wishes AND intelligent items. Now, there is always the exception, but if an effect can be duplicated in Core, then use that method. And with the way my DM's handle Wishes, all it EVER takes is the words "I wish...". Sometimes it only needs to be on your person, not wielded or worn. And it's just magic that takes the meaning of your words with us as well.

But getting your hand Disintegrated by your own wish spell? That's a bit much. Most DMs I run with won't try to bork your wish if it's reasonable. But trying to pull off any cheese through it is a bad idea.

Ahahaha, i was going to tell the time our rogue (1st ed) snuck up on a dragon, tried to backstab with his vorpal dagger. Off popped the head. The rogue immediatly jumps into the treasure pile scrooge mcduck style. Comes up with a handful of jewelry and says "God, I wish we could do that again." "Ring of wishes now with 1 charge remaining" is what the dm said, smiling evilly.

As for first post: DM is a ****. I would never use wish in his game. Also how the hell does nonmagic fire kill a party that can cast wish? One cure light mass and you are good for like 3 rounds. Only does 1D6.

Korivan
2009-05-20, 01:05 AM
nonmagic fire can kill us cause all the afore mentioned wishes came from rings or when in 2nd edition the deck of many things. we were only levels 3-5 and the dm just had the building fall in on us. Those examples were from 3 different dms, so when i play with a new dm and i get a wish, you can understand why im jaded into replying no ****ing **** way****i told you***************showcase******bob*************lo ud************bumperstickers********************** *********************************** so thanks but no thanks.

As for #4, it wasnt worded that way, we wanted something like new enchanted weapons for the duration of the battle or an enchantment bonus for an hour or something i dont remember what exactly.

BobVosh
2009-05-20, 03:30 AM
I think its even worse that you had a wish at 3-5 XD

Kurald Galain
2009-05-20, 04:13 AM
Assuming all of those without a specific mention are 3.x, the DM was a jackass. All of them except 4 and 5 are well within the listed 'safe effects' of Wish. Even 4 and 5, it just takes more XP.
I concur. This sounds like the kind of person that lets you decapitate yourself on a fumble.

It is fun to give quirky or unexpected responses to wishes (or, for that matter, fumbles). It is not fun to give lethal or completely backwards responses to them.

Typewriter
2009-05-20, 01:16 PM
I personally think intent of the wish granter is the most important factor here. If a mage is casting wish (and wishing for something within the rules) then they'll get it, because they are in control of the magic and they know what their intent is.

If someone uses a ring of wishes I think they will receive the most literal simplistic interpretation of what they ask for.(I also consdier the ring of wishes to be nerfed compared to the spell becuase casting 3 wishes is 15k + any additional xp cost your wishes cost, where as the ring of wishes only take around 18k xp to craft(less I think actually)), so using a ring of wishes cant be used to replicate effect requiring additional xp(beyond the base 5000 of casting it).

If someone is having a wish granted by a genie or something, then the intent of the genie determines the effect. You tell him that you wish for a very powerful sword, he can either make you a new one, or grab yours and hand it back to you.

shadzar
2009-05-20, 01:43 PM
You know how in the comic here people went to the oracle, and Roy tried to make the best most precise question to find out what he wanted to know from the oracle without having any loopholes?

Well I was with wishes unpredictable, as a DM, as with most other things.

Well one player knowing this got the party to all decide what to wish for, and when the time came to use the scroll I was presented a 5 page wish for a single thing, that looked like the current GSL agreement thing, and felt I needed a lawyer to look over it before I agreed to anything within it. It had definitions of terms, etc in section A subsection 1....etc.

I stopped giving out wishes then until they agreed for random results from poorly worded wishes. I mean I never dropped 1 million gold on their heads or anything, but I would pervert the wish when not given clearly when they tried to go somewhere prior and ended up where the person was, but the 6 members of the party happened to end up with him in his outhouse all at the same time. :smalleek:

I thought I was being nice taking them directly to the room he was in and would he be unarmed, but they thought otherwise. :smallfurious:

Starscream
2009-05-20, 01:57 PM
I've never actually used Wish. Last campaign I was in we actually found a scroll of the spell, but the story ended before we found a good excuse to (ab)use it.

I guess the way I would DM the spell would depend on how much thought the PCs put into it. If they just blurt out "I wish for a dragon's hoard" then they may find themselves whisked away to the nearest one, dragon and all.

If they consider their wish carefully and don't try to break my game, then I think it'd be pretty cruel to abuse them. After all, if they are willing to spend 5000xp they'd better get something nice out of it.

And if I give them a scroll or allow to them capture a noble Djinn or something, then I'm implicitly accepting the consequences of handing a bunch of monkeys the key to a banana plantation. C'est la vie.

Choco
2009-05-20, 02:27 PM
I stopped giving out wishes then until they agreed for random results from poorly worded wishes. I mean I never dropped 1 million gold on their heads or anything, but I would pervert the wish when not given clearly when they tried to go somewhere prior and ended up where the person was, but the 6 members of the party happened to end up with him in his outhouse all at the same time. :smalleek:

I thought I was being nice taking them directly to the room he was in and would he be unarmed, but they thought otherwise. :smallfurious:

Man, that is awesome, I really do wonder why they got annoyed at that. Geez, not only is the guy unarmed, but also "confined" to his throne and in a perfect position to be interrogated...

We have an understanding in our group, and no matter who is DM'ing we can safely expect that anything listed in the Wish spell description will go off without error, and anything else usually does too unless it is vastly overpowered. We did, however, learn to add the phrase "with all else remaining the same" before the actual contents of our wish... some of the DM's (*cough* like me *cough*) have a habit of rolling a d100 for anything not in the description to determine if everything goes smoothly, some minor and usually humorous side effect occurs, or a complete disaster results.

An exception to that is if the players keep using wishes to get out of tight situations. The first 4-5 times you wished your way out of a tough fight it was fine, but we quickly learned that if we abused this then we would either have an equally challenging fight at our destination or our destination had sunk into the ocean or something else unexpected. Or better yet, one time the DM had the villain we were fighting use a wish to get us back there.

Anyway, sorta on topic: Once I had a player jokingly wish for an everlasting multiverse-wide peace. I granted the wish by permanently stopping all time for everything in existence. It was very peaceful after that.

Zolem
2009-05-20, 02:29 PM
If this has been posted let me know, otherwise im sure many of you have seen similar threads elsewhere. Anyways, what is the worst WISH you have ever recieved or been asked for? Feel free to add your opinion why you like or dislike WISH. Without further adu

1. We were getting our buts kicked by the main bad guy, wished to be teleported back to the taveren we started out in, we got there and the place was on fire and we were burned alive.
2. We wished (accidently) for a map of the area. We recieved a sphere with a map on the outside, like a globe, but it was a magical puzzle box, everytime we wanted to use it we had to try to figure out a new combination, we spent the rest of the campaign lost.
3. I wished with a ring that the enemy's commander was disintegrated as per spell, since the description said the ray comes from my hand, it disintegrated my hand.
4. We were surrounded by a large hord of undead immune to our weapons (2nd edition) we wished for a weapon to apear to defeat them. Ground trembled and the Tarsque was running towards us with the sword in its paw...we died.
5. Wished for an uber powerfull sword (like the one broken wish attempt), the sword was sentient and commanded us to kill each other.

there's more but i think you get the hint. Side question, how do you handle wishes? I like making time stop for the individual, they cant affect anything, they make a couple of checks negotioating with the granter of the wish, if they make it they get it, so long as its not broken...i hate it when dms demand a page long list that looks like a lawyer went through it, you know the type, they pervert the wish no matter what.

1. Jackass, why was the inn on fire? It's perfectly acceptable to retreat from a battle.

2. AJckass, just give them a map. IF you want to be slightly jerky aobut it, make it an inacurate or undetailed map. I personaly, sicne it was an accidental wish, would have gone with the second.

3. Total jackass. I would leave the DM at this point and run our own new capaign without him. Right in front of him.

4. Alright, you got a magic weapon that enables you to defeat them...and once that's done it does nothing else. Doesn't een cut butter, or harm other undead. AFter all, you only wished for it to defeat thsoe specific mosnters.

5. I actualy would have done that one...well maybe not the killing each other, but forcing you on a dangerous quest (making you earn in retroactivly) would be in my style.

shadzar
2009-05-20, 02:42 PM
Man, that is awesome, I really do wonder why they got annoyed at that. Geez, not only is the guy unarmed, but also "confined" to his throne and in a perfect position to be interrogated...

I know right, and he was prone and flanked after the teleport, so all they had to do was kill him there if they wanted!

Roderick_BR
2009-05-20, 04:04 PM
Agreed with the jerk DM theory. A wish doesn't need to screw you up if you are not asking anything cheesy.
1. You ask to teleport back, and the place is in flames? What? Someone there was like "quick, they'll arrive any minute, burn everything!"? Reminds me when a DM made an encounter too hard for us, and when we tried to escape the place (a ship full of pirates), a giant sea monster came out of nowhere and ate our little boat. The DM apologised for the stupid game afterwards.
2. Wasting a wish would be punishment enough. Your DM could have just given a plain old map, with general guidelines for your group try to find their way.
3. If that were the case, any wizard casting it would lose their hands. One-handed high level wizards/sorcerers (and some clerics) everywhere! If you claim the spell doesn't harm the wizard, then it can't harm anyone casting it (unless you cast it from a magic item, and happens to be holding it fully in your hand)
4. Another stupid situation. Just making a single sword that could deal damage to undead would be more than good enough.
5. That would be kinda fair, as an "uber powerfull sword" would be very likely to be sentient. But making you kill each other is lame. Interesting would be to command you to fight very powerful monsters. A sword that likes tough fights, regardless of how squishy his bearers are.

@Choco: Depends on what "tight situation" means. If you use it as Mass Heal (or Mass Cure Critical Wounds) or Teleport, well, you dont allow then to use Wish, they'll just use the actual spells. Use the same limitations (no need to bar healing, just have NPCs that can heal themselves too, teleporting out can be blocked with many spells, for examples).
I like the idea of the villain Wishing the group back to not give them time to rest, for example.

Learnedguy
2009-05-20, 04:10 PM
If this has been posted let me know, otherwise im sure many of you have seen similar threads elsewhere. Anyways, what is the worst WISH you have ever recieved or been asked for? Feel free to add your opinion why you like or dislike WISH. Without further adu

1. We were getting our buts kicked by the main bad guy, wished to be teleported back to the taveren we started out in, we got there and the place was on fire and we were burned alive.
2. We wished (accidently) for a map of the area. We recieved a sphere with a map on the outside, like a globe, but it was a magical puzzle box, everytime we wanted to use it we had to try to figure out a new combination, we spent the rest of the campaign lost.
3. I wished with a ring that the enemy's commander was disintegrated as per spell, since the description said the ray comes from my hand, it disintegrated my hand.
4. We were surrounded by a large hord of undead immune to our weapons (2nd edition) we wished for a weapon to apear to defeat them. Ground trembled and the Tarsque was running towards us with the sword in its paw...we died.
5. Wished for an uber powerfull sword (like the one broken wish attempt), the sword was sentient and commanded us to kill each other.

there's more but i think you get the hint. Side question, how do you handle wishes? I like making time stop for the individual, they cant affect anything, they make a couple of checks negotioating with the granter of the wish, if they make it they get it, so long as its not broken...i hate it when dms demand a page long list that looks like a lawyer went through it, you know the type, they pervert the wish no matter what.

Seems like your DM doesn't like wish:smallbiggrin:!

I understand him. I hate that damn thing as well:smallyuk: (Most of you people seems to think the DM is a jackass. But I applaud him. Frankly, the Wish spell can go kiss my ***.)

hamishspence
2009-05-20, 04:13 PM
Ones within the listed boundaries are OK- ones slightly more powerful are reasonable if well worded. Ones which basically amount to Wishing for 5 wishes

("I wish for an existing Tome Of Intelligence +5 to be teleported to my location")

or worse- are not so good.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-20, 04:24 PM
Seems like your DM doesn't like wish:smallbiggrin:!

I understand him. I hate that damn thing as well:smallyuk: (Most of you people seems to think the DM is a jackass. But I applaud him. Frankly, the Wish spell can go kiss my ***.)Then you ban the spell, you don't hand out Rings of 3 Wishes. The Wish spell has a certain list of things it can accomplish, with a line saying 'other effects are possible, but the spell may fail or be perverted'. Something from the safe list is supposed to be balanced, as it's a 9th level spell costing 5,000 XP. Something not from that list may be unbalanced, but the spell is supposed to be broad, so the DM is allowed to make the Wish fail, or fulfill it in an unsatisfactory way to encourage player expirimentation. If you think the spell is being abused or something, though, you don't allow it, you just don't punish the players for using one of it's weakest abilities.

And no, I don't have any Wish stories. One of my first DMs scarred me for giving the DM access to uncertain magical effects.

hamishspence
2009-05-20, 04:26 PM
the aforementioned teleporting an item rather than creating it- to gain benefits worth vastly more than 5000 XP should, count, I think.

Stormageddon
2009-05-20, 04:37 PM
If this has been posted let me know, otherwise im sure many of you have seen similar threads elsewhere. Anyways, what is the worst WISH you have ever recieved or been asked for? Feel free to add your opinion why you like or dislike WISH. Without further adu

1. We were getting our buts kicked by the main bad guy, wished to be teleported back to the taveren we started out in, we got there and the place was on fire and we were burned alive.
2. We wished (accidently) for a map of the area. We recieved a sphere with a map on the outside, like a globe, but it was a magical puzzle box, everytime we wanted to use it we had to try to figure out a new combination, we spent the rest of the campaign lost.
3. I wished with a ring that the enemy's commander was disintegrated as per spell, since the description said the ray comes from my hand, it disintegrated my hand.
4. We were surrounded by a large hord of undead immune to our weapons (2nd edition) we wished for a weapon to apear to defeat them. Ground trembled and the Tarsque was running towards us with the sword in its paw...we died.
5. Wished for an uber powerfull sword (like the one broken wish attempt), the sword was sentient and commanded us to kill each other.

there's more but i think you get the hint. Side question, how do you handle wishes? I like making time stop for the individual, they cant affect anything, they make a couple of checks negotioating with the granter of the wish, if they make it they get it, so long as its not broken...i hate it when dms demand a page long list that looks like a lawyer went through it, you know the type, they pervert the wish no matter what.

What the DM dose in 1-4 dosen't really make sense. Maybe he gets off on killing parties for no reason. The fun of wish spells is that the DM can twist words.

1. Wishing to go back to the taveran you started from, is vague, I might do something like send you back to the traveran that you started from when you where level 1 (maybe or maybe not make you level 1 again.) Or to the taveran where you characters Mom and dad hooked up the first time, resulting in your birth.

2. You asked for a map. DM gave you a puzzle box. That dosen't make sense. I think because you asked for a map of the surrounding area I might give you a map of your campsite.

3. Asking for the enemy's commander to be disintegrated as per the spell. You asked for the spell effect to take place not cast it, so taking your hand doesn't make sense. I'm guessing you didn't have a name for the commander so I might disintegrate some other officier than the one you were trying to target.

4. Just too mean.

5. Actually alright with.

All in all, I don't see why the DM enjoys killing the party over nothing. No one puts more work into the game than you DM. So why does he/she want the campaigns to end badly everytime. I suggest you either stop using wishes or find a new Dm.

Choco
2009-05-20, 05:14 PM
@Choco: Depends on what "tight situation" means. If you use it as Mass Heal (or Mass Cure Critical Wounds) or Teleport, well, you dont allow then to use Wish, they'll just use the actual spells. Use the same limitations (no need to bar healing, just have NPCs that can heal themselves too, teleporting out can be blocked with many spells, for examples).
I like the idea of the villain Wishing the group back to not give them time to rest, for example.

Ah I should have been more clear. I meant we had a habit of using Wish to get around the usual teleportation blocks, like dimensional anchor and such. Basically we had it coming, using Wish to get around barriers that would have stopped a 'normal' spell of that function one too many times.

I personally agree with you though, I have taken that one DM's example and have the villain somehow teleport the group back right after they leave (if he/she/it is capable of high level magic), or I have only the caster of the wish spell successfully make it out (it's only fair, he/she paid 5000 Xp for it after all, but everyone else... :smallbiggrin:)

Zolem
2009-05-20, 05:19 PM
Oh I should include some of my favorite twisted wishes.

1. Rouge wished for a King's Randsom, and so he got a King to randsom.:smalleek:

2. Wizard wished to understand how the world truly works. He went insane after realizing that he, the world, and even the Gods themselves were fictional creations used in a game played by teenagers eating cheet's in the DMs mothers basement.:smallconfused:

3. A fighter wished to be twice as tall. Granted, but he forgot the other two dimensions and so looked rediculous.:smalltongue:

4. A ranger wished to always know which way was home. However, as he had the previosu in-game day stated the the open road was his home, he always knows which way to an open road. Doesn't know which road or where it goes, it might not even be the closest one. He later on, after a few session, said out loud that the open road wasn't his home, it was Minthro and the stupid spell ahd been worthless. I informed him as soon as he said it that the knowledge in his brain changed and he now knew which way to Minthro. All he had to do was change what he considered home. :smallbiggrin:

5. A wizard decided to be a smart ass and wished that he could never misscast a wish again. I granted it; he could no longer cast Wish so he could never miscast it.:smallwink:

Jayabalard
2009-05-20, 05:32 PM
If this has been posted let me know, otherwise im sure many of you have seen similar threads elsewhere. Anyways, what is the worst WISH you have ever recieved or been asked for? Feel free to add your opinion why you like or dislike WISH. Without further aduThese all sound pretty much in line with how wish was generally handled in 1st and 2nd ed.

As long as you knew that wish was a bad idea and that poorly worded wishes were going to be dangers or even lethal, then I don't really see a problem with it.

Generally I prefer wishes to work kind of like the monkey's paw at best.

Reaper_Monkey
2009-05-20, 06:06 PM
I hate the "corrupted wish" or the "literal wish" or the "you want something nice so you shall SUFFER wish" which DMs seem to forever roll with. Whats the point of a wish if you cant, yaknow, wish for things? :smallfurious:

My personal setting has three gods of luck, which grant all wishes everywhere, each of whom have different styles and alignments.
I could go into details of the exact personalities and mechanics often presented, but in short if its an item you simply need to successfully knowledge religion the item granting the wish to determine which god will grant it and take that into consideration when asking for the wish. If its self cast then its often the one closest aligned with you, or if you have enough force of will then your choice.

But all wishes interpret meaning not phrasing (that way barbarians with 7 int can still wish for things without being forever afflicted with dud wishes) and will automatically balance to the "energy" of a wish, therefore if I wish for a +1 sword, but theres enough energy for a +2 sword, id get a +2 sword, in the same vain if I wish for a +3 sword, I'd still only get a +2 sword.

In cases where wishes take the mickey or try to get away with too much, then often short cuts are taken, you want a dragons horde, fair enough you get it, but make sure the dragon who use to own that horde doesn't manage to track you down. This is also fair, as you can often gauge when your asking for too much, and you still get what you asked for, but the catch is often something unpleasant which is a side-effect.

Never should a wish punish you just for asking for something reasonable, and it should only punish you equally to the proportion of the reward if you don't ask for something reasonable (like the treasure obtained from a wish to get a dragon horde will get an above average CR dragons treasure rolled, and then set that same dragon after you sans any loot, thus being perfectly fair, more so as you can use the loot to buff up before the dragon finds you and tries to turn you into mulch). :smallannoyed:
Never should a wish pay attention to the exact wording of the wish and thus screw you. :smallmad:
and NEVER should a wish for lots of gold cause it to appear over your head and kill you. :smallfurious:

If any of those events that the OP has stated happened in any game I'd play I'd merely say "Okay, I'll try a different wish, I wish I didn't have such an **** of a DM. Oh wait, I can grant that" and walk away. There is no excuse for punishing players for using rewards rightfully given to them. If a DM doesn't like wish, then ban it, if they like playing with twisted wishes, then TELL THE PLAYERS THAT before you let them wish for anything. That way they can avoid the damn things like the plague and only ever dabble in them when they feel like being crazy.

Thats my stack of 2cps about it anyway, I hope you find a better DM soon :smallfurious:

shadzar
2009-05-20, 06:19 PM
I hate the "corrupted wish" or the "literal wish" or the "you want something nice so you shall SUFFER wish" which DMs seem to forever roll with. Whats the point of a wish if you cant, yaknow, wish for things? :smallfurious:

Well it would depend on where you see the wish coming from. If you go with Ali Baba and the story of Aladdin and his lamp, then the wishes are granted from a Djinni...Those aren't very nice things.

Also the power contained in most "corrupted wishes" is unlimited by DM standards. A wish can do anything if properly worded. That means that if you word it correct you could alter the very fabric of the universe permanently. This is where an old saying comes into play. With great power comes great responsibility. So if you try something big, the bigger the consequences for altering the fabric of reality could be.

In my previous example of a perverted wish, the party failed to recall the schedule this person has for a daily basis. Sort of a stickler for the morning routine.

They chose to be carried to the person as a party to wherever he was and directly into the room.

Well I didn't really pervert that wish but let it happen sort of indiscriminately.

I could have perverted it to take them outside the room he was in, but that isn't what was asked for. I just rolled for his location at that time to see if he was running late, early or on time, and it came up he was in the crapper.

So what happened here? The wish wasn't the problem, it was the planning of it that was.

I wouldn't have been able to plan it any better.

Now people that use the example I mentioned about one million gold pieces falling from the sky is being a bit silly.

But perverting a wish a bit as a warning from TPTB is nothing wrong with it.

So when you are using the one spell with more power than anything, mind you a spell required in the process of killing a Tarrasque; then you have to, well you know...be careful what you wish for cause you just might get it. :smallwink:

That is why there is/was something called Limited Wish, that had less power, but hardly any or no drawbacks.

Optimystik
2009-05-20, 06:45 PM
Ones within the listed boundaries are OK- ones slightly more powerful are reasonable if well worded. Ones which basically amount to Wishing for 5 wishes

("I wish for an existing Tome Of Intelligence +5 to be teleported to my location")

or worse- are not so good.

The common counter to a wish like that is to send over the item in pieces, or with its very powerful and very angry owner in tow. In either case, the letter of the wish is satisfied. :smallsmile:

shadow_archmagi
2009-05-20, 06:51 PM
Oh I should include some of my favorite twisted
4. A ranger wished to always know which way was home. However, as he had the previosu in-game day stated the the open road was his home, he always knows which way to an open road. Doesn't know which road or where it goes, it might not even be the closest one. He later on, after a few session, said out loud that the open road wasn't his home, it was Minthro and the stupid spell ahd been worthless. I informed him as soon as he said it that the knowledge in his brain changed and he now knew which way to Minthro. All he had to do was change what he considered home. :smallbiggrin:



Home is where the heart is,
so your real home is in your chest!

lsfreak
2009-05-20, 06:53 PM
Well it would depend on where you see the wish coming from. If you go with Ali Baba and the story of Aladdin and his lamp, then the wishes are granted from a Djinni...Those aren't very nice things.


The problem is, by RAW, there's a very clear list of what wishes can and cannot do without going into trouble. Too many DM's ignore that in favor of wanting an excuse to be a ******.

Haven
2009-05-20, 07:07 PM
If this has been posted let me know, otherwise im sure many of you have seen similar threads elsewhere. Anyways, what is the worst WISH you have ever recieved or been asked for? Feel free to add your opinion why you like or dislike WISH. Without further adu

1. We were getting our buts kicked by the main bad guy, wished to be teleported back to the taveren we started out in, we got there and the place was on fire and we were burned alive.
2. We wished (accidently) for a map of the area. We recieved a sphere with a map on the outside, like a globe, but it was a magical puzzle box, everytime we wanted to use it we had to try to figure out a new combination, we spent the rest of the campaign lost.
3. I wished with a ring that the enemy's commander was disintegrated as per spell, since the description said the ray comes from my hanPd, it disintegrated my hand.
4. We were surrounded by a large hord of undead immune to our weapons (2nd edition) we wished for a weapon to apear to defeat them. Ground trembled and the Tarsque was running towards us with the sword in its paw...we died.
5. Wished for an uber powerfull sword (like the one broken wish attempt), the sword was sentient and commanded us to kill each other.

there's more but i think you get the hint. Side question, how do you handle wishes? I like making time stop for the individual, they cant affect anything, they make a couple of checks negotioating with the granter of the wish, if they make it they get it, so long as its not broken...i hate it when dms demand a page long list that looks like a lawyer went through it, you know the type, they pervert the wish no matter what.

I'm reading this in a public place. People are looking at me like I'm crazy, but I'm having the worst time not laughing.

This is such wonderful bull****.

"But you didn't say it shouldn't be on fire! Oh ho!"

What a troll.

Tallis
2009-05-20, 07:13 PM
Seems like your DM doesn't like wish:smallbiggrin:!

I understand him. I hate that damn thing as well:smallyuk: (Most of you people seems to think the DM is a jackass. But I applaud him. Frankly, the Wish spell can go kiss my ***.)

But they were casting from items, which means the DMs gave them the wishes and then punished them for using them. If you hate wishes then, as DM, you shouldn't allow them in your game. If you allow them in your game then you should be prepared to handle them fairly, not use them as an excuse to kill the PCs.

To put it another way: Lets say your DM hates magic weapons because his parents never got him that lightsaber he wanted as a child. He still puts them in the game, but every time someone tries to use one they automatically fumble and crit themselves. Do you consider that okay because he doesn't like magic weapons?

ShadowFighter15
2009-05-20, 08:16 PM
In cases where wishes take the mickey or try to get away with too much, then often short cuts are taken, you want a dragons horde, fair enough you get it, but make sure the dragon who use to own that horde doesn't manage to track you down. This is also fair, as you can often gauge when your asking for too much, and you still get what you asked for, but the catch is often something unpleasant which is a side-effect.

I remember reading somewhere (Draconomican, I think) that if a dragon loses their hoard, they go through an emotional breakdown. A good way to twist the 'dragon's hoard' wish around is to give them the hoard, and then make the original owner a dragon they need help from, but due to the loss of his hoard, the big scaly guy's catatonic with depression. If it's not a very serious game, you could even make him a pseudo-Goth (he wouldn't have any of the make-up though, he wouldn't be able to afford it :smallbiggrin: ).

Mystic Muse
2009-05-21, 02:13 AM
okay I think some DMs take this to an extreme and others don't take it enough

if a player says "I wish for a powerful sword" I would give them one. however it may be less powerful than their current one because all they asked for was a powerful one. if they say "I wish for a more powerful sword" then I will give them one. I'm not a super nice DM and if they leave a huge opening like in my first example then I will exploit it. if they are not super ambiguous such as in my second example (although the first it's still pretty clear what they meant) I will give them what they ask for.

you shouldn't put wish in your campaign if you don't want your players to use it but you also shouldn't completely avoid abusing the wording either. and honestly in the first example the player is asking to get screwed

shadzar
2009-05-21, 05:15 AM
The problem is, by RAW, there's a very clear list of what wishes can and cannot do without going into trouble. Too many DM's ignore that in favor of wanting an excuse to be a ******.

:smallconfused: What game are you playing. There is no list of what a wish can or cannot do, because a Wish can do anything within reason. Within the confines of the game world, and somewhat outside of it depending on what the DM will allow.


Here are some examples of faulty wishes:

"I wish that I knew everything about this dungeon" could result in the character knowing all for only a second, and then forgetting it.

"I wish for a million gold pieces" can be granted by having them land on the character (that's 100,000 pounds of gold!), and then vanish.

It is the player's fault should they fail to word a wish properly.

The only list I see with ideas of what a wish can do to not make it overpowered is in RC.

Being the most powerful spell a wizard can employ, I think it pretty stupid to say it can only do those things in that list, and the spell should be able to emulate ANY other spell or effect.

You are giving up 5 years of your life to cast the thing for crying out loud! So why shouldn't it be able to do nearly anything?

Wish has changed over every edition of the game. But one thing remains as I mentioned prior. It is mostly based on the 3 wishes from Aladdin's lamp and the monkey's paw if poorly executed.

Again with such great power there has to be some kind of limits, and the limits are bound to the wording.

In my previous example there is no reason a wish could not be used to teleport a group to the location of a person even if they do not know where that is.

Failing to scry properly in advance or use any sort of divination to determine the location and who else may be around, or that the guy wa in an outhouse, if the parties fault.

It is Wish, not Delayed Blast Wish afterall. It happens when cast.

So you would prefer for a wish spell to just be able to do 3 or 4 things and have no drawbacks?

Talk about a munchkin spell if I ever heard one!

I bet you want the Deck of Many Things to have all the jokers removed too huh?

Simple wishes are what doesn't get people in trouble, while more elaborate ones leave hanging chads, and it is not the responsibility of the DM to guess the intent of the voter, rather than just count the ballot as punched!

You wish for you sword to be able to do elemental fire damage, then that is a lot less likely to become a flawed wish.

You wish for "a flaming sword" and your sword bursts into flames including the hilt it is your own dang fault!

DMs are not babysitters for the idiot players. Put some effort into your game and enjoyment. For all the work that a DM goes into putting in details about places, people, and things; the least a player could do when given the ability to use Wish is to give back some detail to the DM. You might be surprised and get exactly what you want given enough detail.

Also when wishing for something that one already exists of don't think it wouldn't come without a price when the famed sword of Bob the former king goes missing from the castle treasury and you just happen to be in possession of it now.

If you got a DM that turns every Wish into a TPK, then it isn't the fault of the spell, or other DMs, you just have a sucky DM.


>>>EOL

TSED
2009-05-21, 05:30 AM
You wish for you sword to be able to do elemental fire damage, then that is a lot less likely to become a flawed wish.

You wish for "a flaming sword" and your sword bursts into flames including the hilt it is your own dang fault!

THIS I have a problem with. Your character is wishing, and he wishes for something that his character would think. "It is flaming!" If you lived in D&D-world, assuming it's not OotS style, you're not going to say "elemental fire damage." You're going to say flaming.


This is made even worse by the fact that 'flaming' is an ACTUAL ENCHANTMENT NAME. So your 'metagame knowledge' thing STILL falls flat!

shadzar
2009-05-21, 05:49 AM
THIS I have a problem with. Your character is wishing, and he wishes for something that his character would think. "It is flaming!" If you lived in D&D-world, assuming it's not OotS style, you're not going to say "elemental fire damage." You're going to say flaming.


This is made even worse by the fact that 'flaming' is an ACTUAL ENCHANTMENT NAME. So your 'metagame knowledge' thing STILL falls flat!

That is where metagaming comes into play. OOC talk clarifies in-character actions.

Not everyone is an expert roleplayer. The wish spell is truly the only place in the game a character can have luck. All other things are based on player's luck at rolling the dice, making choices, etc.

When you step outside the character for something like this you can be more specific in what you are trying to wish for, and even the lowest INT or WIS statted character can get what they want.

The DM is not a part of the game, so requires the OOC talk to know what happens or what the players want. There is no magic spell fairy that grants wishes. Communication is a large part of the game, both in and out of it. :smallwink:

That is also why I put the below portion in quotes to claim the character said it, and the above without to show the player said it.

It will also vary from group to group should the spell even be allowed. Again communication with the current DM is the only way you will know how wish-type spells are handled.

I also think asking for a sword that does elemental fire damage could be said in character, without looking at keywords or such based on the known elements of the world you are playing in.

wood, earth, fire, water?
earth, wind, fire, water?
fire, water, air, metal?

Do you have more than 4 "elements"? What are they? Does you have the entire periodic table of elements?

So any wish will require more than just in character speaking to make it known, unless your characters talk in metagame speech, asking for a +5 vorpol sword.

The DM isn't a mind reader for the character, and could always use the player to speak to the DM to explain what it is they are wanting from a wish.

Wishing for Robin the Bard to be healed, isn't something you would often find perverted.

The most times wishes get perverted is when they ask for too much, or don't ask clearly for what they are wanting in-character.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-21, 06:52 AM
:smallconfused: What game are you playing. There is no list of what a wish can or cannot do, because a Wish can do anything within reason. Within the confines of the game world, and somewhat outside of it depending on what the DM will allow.

What game are you playing?!

Wish has a very specific list of things it can do safely without the wish being perverted at all. It then says that it could possibly do greater things, but they might not work exactly as you intended.

Wishing for, say, a flaming sword is likely to get you a +1 flaming sword of some random type (which is well within the power of a safe wish - a wish can create any item worth up to 25,000 gp, and a +1 flaming longsword costs less than 9k). Or possibly transform your sword into a flaming (as the weapon enhancement) sword. It will not make it suddenly burst into flame!

Read the ****ing spell description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Wish.htm) some time!

shadzar
2009-05-21, 06:58 AM
What game are you playing?!

pre-WotC (A)D&D.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-21, 07:28 AM
Oh, right, the game that was released... what, twenty years ago by this point?

Wasn't resurrection a save-or-die in that? Yeah, not the fairest game ever made.

Fun fact: that spell description is lifted wholesale from 3e - which was written by TSR, not WotC. (Or, at least, it still has the TSR logo on it. It's odd, it was released in 2000, and TSR stopped existing in 1997... I have no idea what happened there.)

shadzar
2009-05-21, 07:37 AM
Oh, right, the game that was released... what, twenty years ago by this point?
2009-1973=36

:smallwink:

Wasn't resurrection a save-or-die in that? Yeah, not the fairest game ever made.

:smallconfused: Yeah boy! cause when you are dead, it isn't fair at all to let you have a chance to come back to life. :smallconfused:

Oh wait you didn't get that a die effect on one that wa already dead is a moot point?

You may wish to venture to the WotC forums where it discusses how people these days prefer a simpler more fair game than a good one. :smallannoyed:

Sorry, D&D isn't something like a computer game where you can hard-code each and every rule, no matter what WotC thinks, because you can;t gues in advance what the players may want to do, and when you limit to only a select few options, then you no longer have an RPG.

If this thread is solely for 3rd edition+ versions of the wish spell, then I can leave gladly, but I don't see how wish perversion could happen at all when you are limited to only 12 things the spell can do, and they are all spelled out in advance. :smallconfused: I could be wrong though and this thread is not solely for 3rd edition, but talking about the spell Wish in general.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-21, 07:41 AM
2009-1973=36Sorry, D&D isn't something like a computer game where you can hard-code each and every rule, no matter what WotC thinks, because you can;t gues in advance what the players may want to do, and when you limit to only a select few options, then you no longer have an RPG.

Have you read the fourth edition books? That's really exactly what they've done.

This board defaults to D&D 3.5 - not many people here are old grognards like you. I was one when second edition AD&D was released!

However, my point is that you're arguing about how Wish used to work in first edition - a game I doubt most of us have even played - and are using it to counter arguments about how Wish worked in 3.5 edition, which most of us have played.

That just doesn't work.

Also edition wars... please don't do that. They devolve into flame wars and get topics locked.

Glyde
2009-05-21, 07:51 AM
Sometimes I miss THAC0. Other times, I'm glad my bard can hit things for once.


As for wish?

I wish for the ability to grant more wishes: Turn the character into a ring of three wishes. Then hope that the party wishes you back.

shadzar
2009-05-21, 07:52 AM
Have you read the fourth edition books?

Unfortunately yes, I have; and oddly enough they don't contain a power or ritual called "Wish".

Jayabalard
2009-05-21, 07:53 AM
What game are you playing?!While I'm not the person you're asking... my answer would be "Not 3e D&D", so I don't have a specific list of things that are safe with wish, and in every game I've played it's been well known, both IC and OOC, that wishes are never safe.

The OP mentions specifically that one of those cases was while playing 2e AD&D, so there's no reason to assume that people are talking about 3e. So pointing out the SRD in a condescending fashion doesn't really add anything to the discussion.


This board defaults to D&D 3.5 - not many people here are old grognards like you. I was one when second edition AD&D was released!Sorry, but I don't agree; This board Defaults to Pen and Paper RPGs... nothing more or less.

This is especially true when the OP explicitly mentions earlier editions.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-21, 07:53 AM
Sometimes I miss THAC0. Other times, I'm glad my bard can hit things for once.


As for wish?

I wish for the ability to grant more wishes: Turn the character into a ring of three wishes. Then hope that the party wishes you back.

You're still up a wish. Get a willing lackey (preferably also your wife or something) and spam wish until you have a few hundred one-charge rings.


While I'm not the person you're asking... my answer would be "Not 3e D&D", so I don't have a specific list of things that are safe with wish, and in every game I've played it's been well known, both IC and OOC, that wishes are never safe.

The OP mentions specifically that one of those cases was while playing 2e AD&D, so there's no reason to assume that people are talking about 3e. So pointing out the SRD in a condescending fashion doesn't really add anything to the discussion.

You're right, and I apologise to Shadzar.

I still think arguing the mechanics of a wish spell from two entirely different games is a little silly, though.

Jayabalard
2009-05-21, 08:01 AM
I still think arguing the mechanics of a wish spell from two entirely different games is a little silly, though.If you look back at the OP, you might notice that this discussion isn't really about the mechanics of the wish spell at all... at most, that's a side question.


Anyways, what is the worst WISH you have ever recieved or been asked for? Feel free to add your opinion why you like or dislike WISH.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-21, 08:04 AM
There was an argument over whether or not the wish spell can be used to safely create any effect without it automatically being perverted - the specific argument was wishing for a flaming sword and having your sword spontaneously burst into flames.

In 1e, this was apparently par for the course. In 3e, it means your DM is a ****, or hasn't read the spell description at all.

Both posters wrote entire novels describing how the other was wrong for taking rules from a different game, which is pretty silly. ;)

(Edit: Why does this forum censor short-for-Richard? It's printed in the intro to Start of Darkness...)

Xenogears
2009-05-21, 08:12 AM
:Wish has changed over every edition of the game. But one thing remains as I mentioned prior. It is mostly based on the 3 wishes from Aladdin's lamp and the monkey's paw if poorly executed.

Last I checked in The Arabian Nights Aladdin's lamp (and ring) summoned a genie who performed tasks for him. It didn't have a limit to the number of times he could use it. It also never went badly for him (except when he was tricked into wishing the genie to go jack up it's true master and then all that really happened was that it yelled at him and threatened him until he retracted the wish.)

So if it is based on Aladdin then it should be 99% safe and have unlimited drawback free (except for PO'ing people cuz you stole their stuff) wishes.

It seems like everyone thinks it should be like the monkeys paw which is just being a jerk as far as I can see. Now if the players either A) know you are doing this and think its fun. or B) Try to abuse the spell then sure go ahead and twist their wish to all get out. If they summon an evil genie or demon sure have the evil creature twist the wish. That is normal. If they cast the spell themselves or you give them a wing of three wishes you just shouldn't do so just for a chance to mess with the players unless they know beforehand that you are going to do this.

Seriously if I ever had to write a lawyeresque paper just to cast a spell in game then I would kill off my character and roll up pun-pun. Then play for five mins and quit.

shadzar
2009-05-21, 08:30 AM
Well I cannot seem to find my Expert Set rules to see if that is where wish originated.

I guess I will grab my dragon magazines and check there, but IIRC Alladin and he monkey's paw were both mentioned in regards to the Wish spell.

So people using them that way are still going off that for games and it still propogates today.

The way to overcome the problem for players is simple.

Don't use a scroll/ring/etc of Wish, and don't learn the Wish spell.

I think one of the things also is that all the work a DM puts into encounters/challenges/conflicts/etc in the game, they don't like some spell to just subvert them all the time, and used Wish to prevent that from happening.

I would question, in the times Wish was perverted, what kind of games/DMs were these?

Were they killer-DMs in general? Did they have well thought out stories, that a Wish could destroy? Were they jsut playing a module that gave Wish away? Were they a new DM?

MAybe the kind of DM and those other things come in to play more on figuring out why Wishes get perverted.

Myself, I play thinking games. You can bash things with a club only so often before it stops working so good, and you have to find another way, or get into trouble for doing it, so don't like people to try to take the easy way out (see my hate for 4th edition skill challenges).

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-21, 08:33 AM
A good DM will look at his PCs and think to himself "Hmm, they have these abilities, how can I account for those?"

Of course, Wish is a little harder, but in general you should just treat it as a teleport or divination spell, as mostly anything else it does wouldn't really break any encounters.

Xenogears
2009-05-21, 08:43 AM
The way to overcome the problem for players is simple.

Don't use a scroll/ring/etc of Wish, and don't learn the Wish spell.

I think one of the things also is that all the work a DM puts into encounters/challenges/conflicts/etc in the game, they don't like some spell to just subvert them all the time, and used Wish to prevent that from happening.

Myself, I play thinking games. You can bash things with a club only so often before it stops working so good, and you have to find another way, or get into trouble for doing it, so don't like people to try to take the easy way out (see my hate for 4th edition skill challenges).

If you think Wish is going to screw up your game then tell the players wish doesn't exist in your world. Don't hand them a ring of wishes and then use it to bash their skulls in.

shadzar
2009-05-21, 08:49 AM
A good DM will look at his PCs and think to himself "Hmm, they have these abilities, how can I account for those?"

Of course, Wish is a little harder, but in general you should just treat it as a teleport or divination spell, as mostly anything else it does wouldn't really break any encounters.

That is exactly how many people treat a wish.

Suppose you wish to teleport to your home in your birth village.

TADA! Your house was destroyed by a volcano which you haven't yet known about and you pop right into a torrent of running lava.

Too bad!

I am one that allows the world to live even though the players aren't in that area of it at the time. Towns and other people don't freeze when the players are not around, and have a sort of scripted set of activities, and even calamities can occur at any time.

It is a living world, where things change.

Ever seen/heard a DM rolling dice for reasons you cannot tell? Maybe they are rolling weather and chances for things in far off lands to be happening so that the area is ready for you when you arrive to have a full and rich story about it for you to enjoy and interact with, and make sure there is always something for the players to do wherever they are.

Then the players don't enter Town X where it is quiet and they don't know what is going on with the rest of the world, unless the DM wanted that specific type of town to be there and be disconnected from the rest of the world for some reason, because then even something is happening to cause them to not know what else is going on.

So like a wish, be careful where you teleport. Just ask Vaarsuvius. :smallwink:

Typewriter
2009-05-21, 08:57 AM
What game are you playing?!

Wish has a very specific list of things it can do safely without the wish being perverted at all. It then says that it could possibly do greater things, but they might not work exactly as you intended.

Wishing for, say, a flaming sword is likely to get you a +1 flaming sword of some random type (which is well within the power of a safe wish - a wish can create any item worth up to 25,000 gp, and a +1 flaming longsword costs less than 9k). Or possibly transform your sword into a flaming (as the weapon enhancement) sword. It will not make it suddenly burst into flame!

Read the ****ing spell description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Wish.htm) some time!

I agree that if you're casting your own wish you'll get what you want. If you get a lamp and a genie pops up and you call him slave and push him around then ask that same wish, then the genie(who is the granting force) will be able to interpret as he sees fit. Meaning your current weapon bursts into flames because he doesn't like you.

You cast - you're in control and get what you want(as long as you're not breaking stuff).

Others cast - you're at their whims to a certain degree.

Roderick_BR
2009-05-21, 09:10 AM
This board defaults to D&D 3.5 - not many people here are old grognards like you. I was one when second edition AD&D was released!
And how many are you now?
Sorry, couldn't resist :smallbiggrin:

Back to the topic. I still say there's a big difference between a faulty/badly worded wish, and a crappy DM that's there only to **** the group for his own enjoyment.

Using again the teleport example from the OP: They wished them back, and the place they arrived was on fire. WTF!? Why? Just to kill the group? What if they had access to teleport/greater teleport, and used that instead of Wish? Would the place be on fire? Any place they tried to teleport would be a deathtrap? If they just managed to flee, and walked all the way back to the inn, and tryed to walk in? The place would suddenly burst in flames?
The place was burning down just because they used a Wish? That's stupid!

Yeah, asking a "powerful weapon" and gaining only a +1 weapon is a valid way to exploid badly-worded Wish. Gaining a weapon that'll simply kill you, no save/dodge/nothing, is just the DM saying he doesn't want to be DM (or even have a gaming group) anymore.

If you REALLY want Wish to be hard to use, you could demand very well thought-out and well worded Wishes. Taking the "I wish to know eveything about this dungeon" example. The character gains the knowledge of the place... except for the traps inside the outer walls (technically outside the dungeon), secret passageways (also technically outside the dungeon), and creatures (they are not the dangeon). You would just give him a map with all the normal rooms detailed for the cost of a expendable and expensive magic item or a spent 9th level spell slot.

Giving a drawback for uses that looks like exploits are valid also. Fleeing from battles? You fled, so you didn't win, so no XP for j00. Asking for a specific weapon/item? Give it (as long as it doesn't overcome the max cost). It's likely to have a limited use (as the +1 undead bane weapon example).
Asking for simple pure gold? There. I hope you brought enough Handy Haversacks. And beware of thieves when you enter the city as a walking bank.

Maybe allow only the "safe" list options (magic gear, reproduction of others spells). Or just ban it at all.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-21, 09:14 AM
That is exactly how many people treat a wish.

Suppose you wish to teleport to your home in your birth village.

TADA! Your house was destroyed by a volcano which you haven't yet known about and you pop right into a torrent of running lava.

Too bad!

Jesus Christ I hope you're joking.

What kind of sane DM writes a "random events" table with volcano on it?!

Do you just hate your players or what?


And how many are you now?
Sorry, couldn't resist :smallbiggrin:

Well you see, AD&D 2nd edition was released in 1989. It is now 2009...

I'll leave the math to you. :smallwink:

Kornaki
2009-05-21, 09:16 AM
That is exactly how many people treat a wish.

Suppose you wish to teleport to your home in your birth village.

TADA! Your house was destroyed by a volcano which you haven't yet known about and you pop right into a torrent of running lava.

Too bad!

I am one that allows the world to live even though the players aren't in that area of it at the time. Towns and other people don't freeze when the players are not around, and have a sort of scripted set of activities, and even calamities can occur at any time.

It is a living world, where things change.

Yeah, but did you roll up before they used wish to determine if the town was destroyed by a volcano? The way you describe it, you didn't give a rat's ass about the town until they wished to go there, and then decided to do something that would destroy it and the party in the process. If they showed up and it had been destroyed, but the PC's were safe, that would be one thing but killing the party off in the process serves no purpose other than to kill the party off.

By your interpretation of the spell, wish might as well read "Kill the party. Start over". What's the point of that? It's not even creative to just randomly kill them off

DrizztFan24
2009-05-21, 09:17 AM
Home is where the heart is,
so your real home is in your chest!

I found me!

The ultimate therapy tool. Always being able to find yourself in the midst of this huge world.

shadzar
2009-05-21, 09:28 AM
Jesus Christ I hope you're joking.



Well you see, AD&D 2nd edition was released in 1989. It is now 2009...

I'll leave the math to you. :smallwink:

Nope not joking. My worlds live. They don't need the players in a town for things to happen in it, and I don't script everything. Through many ocmplex endeavors my worlds have an AI and run themselves with my help, lots of dice rolls, and a few clever other tricks of randomization.

I think you said "I was one...", and that person was asking you "how many people are you now?"


Yeah, but did you roll up before they used wish to determine if the town was destroyed by a volcano? The way you describe it, you didn't give a rat's ass about the town until they wished to go there, and then decided to do something that would destroy it and the party in the process. If they showed up and it had been destroyed, but the PC's were safe, that would be one thing but killing the party off in the process serves no purpose other than to kill the party off.

By your interpretation of the spell, wish might as well read "Kill the party. Start over". What's the point of that? It's not even creative to just randomly kill them off

Yes, my world lives and changes for the places the players have ben to, and some that players have not been too. This stuff is taken care of while the players are arguing amongst themselves what to do next, and even while other things are going on, just like rolling for the weather.

So while the player has never ben to the village the PC grew up in, they may decide to visit, and I shoudl have it ready with a little help from the player. The amount of time that has passed since the PCs last visited or spoke to someone about a certain place, thing, or person determines the amount of things that could have changed over that time period.

A living world.

I don't need a wish or teleport spell to kill characters. I have blue bolts, green slime, rot grubs, and many other things in my employ to do that with.

But again, I will not babysit player actions. Just like not warning them about every door they open, or every item that they put on may be cursed or trapped.

Thus is the harsh life of an adventurer. If they didn't want to risk death, they should have stayed at home milking the goats with dadums and mumsey.

You get power to shape the universe with, then you better darn well use it right. :smallwink:

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-21, 09:30 AM
So are your living worlds prone to spontaneous volcanic activity or what?

Volcanoes don't just... pop out of the ground! Where the hell was that village built?

(And I'm wilfully ignoring the real meaning - it was a terrible joke. :P)

Kornaki
2009-05-21, 09:31 AM
If you had in fact decided there was a volcanic eruption before they cast the wish, then your example has nothing to do with a wish backfiring. No lesson is learned

shadzar
2009-05-21, 09:39 AM
It wasn't for a lesson to be learned.

Dormant volcanoes lie everywhere. It was a mountain village.

The point is that even with some of the mundane spell you never know what to expect somewhere you don't know what is going on.

That is the reason to scry before you port.

Let us say you found out your home town was in the middle of an attack and wanted to go back and help them out.

You teleport into your old house to be engulfed in flames.

Well you pulled a V and acted without thinking, your own fault. Here would be a great place to use a wish spell. Wish the town was no longer on fire!

There would be 1000 ways to pervert that simple wish, but 90% of the time you will end up with the flames dying out, or a storm appears and the rain puts out the flames.

Players should learn the lessons, not the characters.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-21, 09:42 AM
Dormant volcanoes lie everywhere. It was a mountain village.

At the boundaries between tectonic plates, sure! Otherwise, not so much.

Volcanoes aren't any more likely near mountains than on flatland. Actually, if a volcano erupted in a mountain range, no one would notice - you'd just get an earthquake, most likely. Although a mountain might explode if it's a big one.

If one of the mountains was already a dormant volcano, fine... but was it always a dormant volcano, or did it spontaneously become one when the PCs teleported there?

shadzar
2009-05-21, 09:57 AM
At the boundaries between tectonic plates, sure! Otherwise, not so much.

Volcanoes aren't any more likely near mountains than on flatland. Actually, if a volcano erupted in a mountain range, no one would notice - you'd just get an earthquake, most likely. Although a mountain might explode if it's a big one.

If one of the mountains was already a dormant volcano, fine... but was it always a dormant volcano, or did it spontaneously become one when the PCs teleported there?

:smallfurious: Who created this inhospitable world, you or me?

Kylarra
2009-05-21, 09:58 AM
I'd like to point out that "DM discretion for balance" is what is cited in 2e, and that is not synonymous with "make your players bend over and have your way with them because they're trying to use a utility spell (that yes costs you 5 years of life and confines you to bed for 2D4 days)". It also cites 3 instances (resurrection, healing, teleportation) that do not cause undue stress on the caster's body (which could be extrapolated to be the "safe" wishes). While making things true from a certain point of view (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JediTruth) is amusing, perverting relatively harmless wishes for the sake of asshattery just makes me want to facepunch people.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-21, 09:59 AM
:smallfurious: Who created this inhospitable world, you or me?

Neither of us - you randomly generated it using dice.

Draco Ignifer
2009-05-21, 10:02 AM
Personally, I like the idea of wishes being influenced based on the intentions of the caster, rather than automatically malignant. A wizard who casts wish himself will always be safe if the wish is within reason - they're the one shaping the spell, so they know how it'll go. Intelligent beings grant wishes based on their desires towards the wisher - djinni are being freed from confinement, so they're generally well-disposed, but if you ask for too much, they will get offended; demons will do what suits them best, which should not generally be the death of the wisher. It's so much more fun to tempt and to end up with the wisher causing his own downfall than merely killing them, after all. Unintelligent and uncursed magic items, on the other hand, will generally do the literal genie thing, because they have no intention. Intelligent ones twist them towards their ends, which can be very good or very bad... on one hand, an intelligent and benevolent item might be about as nice as the wizard itself casting it, but on the other, an evil item could be as bad as any demon.

There are two situations where I think it's fair to be completely malevolent with wishes, though. Cursed items are, and should be, monkeys' paws, and will make the wish cruel and perverted without going against the word of the wish. But be clever about it, and don't do things to harm them just because. The Monkey's Paw didn't drop the money the people who had it wished on their heads... they got a letter in the mail with a check in compensation for the tragic death of their son at a factory. Teleporting them to a tavern shouldn't just randomly set the tavern on fire... but opening a gate to it so they can run through but so can the bad guy? Teleporting with a spell that has a lingering effect, letting the bad guy have all the time he needs to trace it? Having a Sarda-esque mage bring them there because he wants to make them an offer they can't refuse? Teleporting nothing but their persons there? All fair game.

The second, of course, is when you ask for too much. But in those cases, rather than being outright malevolent, I'd suggest that the wish, straining against a request that goes against its power, seeks the easiest possible route to it. So, wishing for that powerful magical sword summons it to you... and it doesn't bring the person you stole it from to you, but someone who owns a sword like that will have ways to track it down. Wish for immortality, and be transmuted to adamantite. Wish for someone to die, and if finger of death won't work, then maybe it brings in something powerful and unaligned which is closer to him than to you... or maybe it flings you into the far future right above his now-cooling corpse. But don't just say "well, you're wishing for a +5 sword, but you didn't wish for where it'd be, so it's lodged in your throat."

Jayabalard
2009-05-21, 10:03 AM
What kind of sane DM writes a "random events" table with volcano on it?!One that wants there to be a chance that a volcano randomly pops up in the area; more than likely, the entry is something like "Natural disaster" and you either pick something appropriate to the area or roll on some other random table. While I don't generally bother with such things, it was not that uncommon to have tables like that in 1e/2e... and both games still have a fairly strong following.

shadzar
2009-05-21, 10:04 AM
Neither of us - you randomly generated it using dice.

:smalleek: Don't let my players know all my secrets!


Personally, I like the idea of wishes being influenced based on the intentions of the caster, rather than automatically malignant. A wizard who casts wish himself will always be safe if the wish is within reason - they're the one shaping the spell, so they know how it'll go.

FLAW.

If wizards can shape the most powerful spells at will with exactly how they want to turn it out, then how is it they cannot manage a simple 1st level spell like Magic Missile to always deal maximum damage?

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-21, 10:04 AM
:smalleek: Don't let my players know all my secrets!

Oh thank God you took that as a joke, I was worried for a moment but it was too funny (in my head) to pass up.

Jayabalard
2009-05-21, 10:06 AM
A wizard who casts wish himself will always be safe if the wish is within reason - they're the one shaping the spell, so they know how it'll go. Personally, I've always treated wish as tapping into some other creature's power, even when it's being cast by a wizard; in effect you summon a creature, and either force it do give you what you want or make some sort of deal.

(please don't bother pointing out that this isn't the case by RAW...)

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-21, 10:07 AM
Personally, I've always treated wish as tapping into some other creature's power, even when it's being cast by a wizard; in effect you summon a creature, and either force it do give you what you want or make some sort of deal.

(please don't bother pointing out that this isn't the case by RAW...)

I actually think that's what's intended - it's called "wish".

The psionic version, Reality Revision, just appears to be the psion rewriting reality with the power of his sheer focused will, though.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-21, 10:08 AM
I'd like to point out that "DM discretion for balance" is not synonymous with "make your players bend over and have your way with them".I am seriously considering sigging this.

shadzar
2009-05-21, 10:09 AM
Personally, I've always treated wish as tapping into some other creature's power, even when it's being cast by a wizard; in effect you summon a creature, and either force it do give you what you want or make some sort of deal.

(please don't bother pointing out that this isn't the case by RAW...)

A very reasonable assumption. That or you are pulling pure ethereal force into being to bend it to your will, and must have every thing perfect for it to perform the arcane function you intend for it to do. Either way you get one little spec out of place, and it could warp into something not exactly as intended. :smallwink: A perverted wish.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-21, 10:12 AM
Missed this, sorry...


FLAW.

If wizards can shape the most powerful spells at will with exactly how they want to turn it out, then how is it they cannot manage a simple 1st level spell like Magic Missile to always deal maximum damage?

The same reason exactly the same +1 flaming longsword doesn't deal max damage every time it hits. Magic Missile says nothing about always striking the most vulnerable area of the target - it just says it always hits. Obviously sometimes it hits the target's shoulder rather than his skull.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-21, 10:16 AM
FLAW.

If wizards can shape the most powerful spells at will with exactly how they want to turn it out, then how is it they cannot manage a simple 1st level spell like Magic Missile to always deal maximum damage?Keep in mind, a Wizard casting Wish needs to burn both a massively high-level spell slot, as well as a chunk of his very soul to gain the effects, as well as the Wizard being rendered useless for 2d4 days. Yeah, it's powerful, but it's supposed to be high power, high cost, not high cost and the DM uses it to murder you. If someone wants something in line with the cost of Wish, why not give it to them, given the cost and the fact that anything less means the spell will never be used.

shadzar
2009-05-21, 10:16 AM
Missed this, sorry...



The same reason exactly the same +1 flaming longsword doesn't deal max damage every time it hits. Magic Missile says nothing about always striking the most vulnerable area of the target - it just says it always hits. Obviously sometimes it hits the target's shoulder rather than his skull.

But if you can command a wish spell to perform exactly as you want at 9th level of spell, then how can you not get a magic missile to strike true on the target for maximized effectiveness to deliver it payload of force damage at 1st level of spell?

We have a continuity problem with magic here.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-21, 10:18 AM
But if you can command a wish spell to perform exactly as you want at 9th level of spell, then how can you not get a magic missile to strike true on the target for maximized effectiveness to deliver it payload of force damage at 1st level of spell?

We have a continuity problem with magic here.Are you willing to burn years of your life to control the power of a Magic Missile?

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-21, 10:19 AM
But if you can command a wish spell to perform exactly as you want at 9th level of spell, then how can you not get a magic missile to strike true on the target for maximized effectiveness to deliver it payload of force damage at 1st level of spell?

We have a continuity problem with magic here.

In a fight people tend to move about and conceal their vital spots. You fire the missile a few seconds before it actually hits.

Kylarra
2009-05-21, 10:20 AM
But if you can command a wish spell to perform exactly as you want at 9th level of spell, then how can you not get a magic missile to strike true on the target for maximized effectiveness to deliver it payload of force damage at 1st level of spell?

We have a continuity problem with magic here.I tell you what. Take 5 years off your life and risk 2d4 days of bed rest every cast of Magic Missile and I'll give you that maximized spell.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-21, 10:22 AM
I tell you what. Take 5 years off your life and risk 2d4 days of bed rest every cast of Magic Missile and I'll give you that maximized spell.

(Alternatively, play third edition and take the Maximize Spell metamagic feat.)

shadzar
2009-05-21, 10:27 AM
Keep in mind, a Wizard casting Wish needs to burn both a massively high-level spell slot, as well as a chunk of his very soul to gain the effects, as well as the Wizard being rendered useless for 2d4 days. Yeah, it's powerful, but it's supposed to be high power, high cost, not high cost and the DM uses it to murder you. If someone wants something in line with the cost of Wish, why not give it to them, given the cost and the fact that anything less means the spell will never be used.

But who decides and how do you decide what is worth that time and downtime? The DM.

Rather than saying no you can't try, I would prefer to say yes, but with an additional drawback when a wish asks for a bit much. I don't like telling players they cannot try something. D&D is about letting people try things. I have no problems telling them no there is not ye olde magick shoppe to buy something from and they can't just have a +3 [insert weapon type here].

But anything a player wants to try, as a DM I will allow even if it means the death of them, including but not limited to Wishes.


Are you willing to burn years of your life to control the power of a Magic Missile?

Yes, because a shorter life could mean less, than having it ended right now, but that isn't the point. The power of Wish is what lead to things like maximized/empowered/etc spells in 3rd edition. Because of the very things I am talking about. The control offered and freely given by wish is so great to just gt what you want, and someone still can't target someone properly with magic missile, and can target their mind with mind influencing spells? What's up with that?

So Wish has already changed a lot about how people view spells, and how they are used in the game to keep the continuity of magic in general.


I tell you what. Take 5 years off your life and risk 2d4 days of bed rest every cast of Magic Missile and I'll give you that maximized spell.

:smallconfused: Cost analysis says that is too much from going from 9th level spell requirements, back down to a 1st level spell and applying them without adjusting for the power differences.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-21, 10:29 AM
I... don't think Wish was the only reason for metamagic feats. I think they were introduced mainly to give spellcasters more variety.

God knows why they needed more variety.

Tiki Snakes
2009-05-21, 10:30 AM
But if you can command a wish spell to perform exactly as you want at 9th level of spell, then how can you not get a magic missile to strike true on the target for maximized effectiveness to deliver it payload of force damage at 1st level of spell?

We have a continuity problem with magic here.

You can. (in 3.5)

Maximised Magic Missile, iirc?
Holy 'Expanded Greater Ninja'd, batman!

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-21, 10:33 AM
You can. (in 3.5)

Maximised Magic Missile, iirc?

Which sucks, by the by - you're much better off casting an empowered fireball with that fourth-level spell slot.

shadzar
2009-05-21, 10:36 AM
I think I actually ninja'd you on that one. :smallwink:


I... don't think Wish was the only reason for metamagic feats. I think they were introduced mainly to give spellcasters more variety.

God knows why they needed more variety.

Probably not, and no wizards really didn't need any more variety, the things i could do with my utility type spells over silly things like fireball, and lighting bolt, really upset many people with the very versatility of the spells.

So just think how dangerous a Wish in my hands could have been?

Could you imagine wishing for a new spell all together and what havoc you could wreck being spared the research time?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-21, 10:37 AM
But who decides and how do you decide what is worth that time and downtime? The DM.

Rather than saying no you can't try, I would prefer to say yes, but with an additional drawback when a wish asks for a bit much. I don't like telling players they cannot try something. D&D is about letting people try things. I have no problems telling them no there is not ye olde magick shoppe to buy something from and they can't just have a +3 [insert weapon type here].I'm not saying the Wish should go off perfectly, every time. I'm saying that Wishing for a boopin map should get you a pretty darn good map of the surrounding area. Heck, at that power level, it ought to be a topographical map of the surrounding 10 miles, with all landmarks listed, as well as any natural resources and the dens of any dangerous animals. Not a puzzle box.

The spell is powerful, but it has limits. If the players stay within those limits, the spell should work. It may not be perfect, but a reasonable Wish, in line with the power of the spell and not obtained in a way that would make you doubt the accuracy of the casting, should get the player more-or-less what they ask for. Yes, if they teleport back to their hometown you are under no obligation to have it in the same condition that they left it(think the Shire), but they shouldn't automatically land in lava, either(though that's more an objection to the volcano than the spell. There's other natural disasters that make more sense).

Draco Ignifer
2009-05-21, 10:40 AM
Personally, rather than due to the energy infused within it, I'd say it's more based on the fact that certain spells affect things that are just more variable than others. Wall of stone, for example, will always turn out the same way when you cast it the same way, without having to roll dice to see how much rock you can create. Reverse gravity always creates a field where gravity is reversed, never where it might be sideways or slanted. Similarly, although control weather doesn't give you fine control, the general control over it isn't subject to variable effects - you don't roll to see whether you create a drizzle or a monsoon, but get to choose instead.

Variable spells, on the other hand, generally deal with creatures, who can roll with the impact, dodge out of the way of the main blast, interpose parts of their body, and the like. Even a heal spell can be effected by whether or not a creature is in the right position to heal easily, how their cells react to the curative magics, and the like. Even if a fire shield always makes the same flame around you, each time a creature attacks, it might get hit differently.

Wishes, despite dealing with the very fabric of reality, do so in a way which is evidently in that more predictable realm... Unless, of course, you're using it to create a variable-damage spell. You can impose some variation, of course, but it's silly to make it on the level of "well, on one hand, this can make a magic sword, and on the other, it can summon the Tarrasque" when wizard magic generally is far, far more predictable. It's only when you stretch outside the level of your own mental control, and have to concentrate everything on even casting the spell without the power necessary to keep it under control, that you should run into serious problems like that... i.e., when you ask something out-of-bounds.

Kylarra
2009-05-21, 10:43 AM
(Alternatively, play third edition and take the Maximize Spell metamagic feat.)I did think of that after I posted, but by then I was off making breakfast and didn't get back to computer until just now. :smallfrown:


:smallconfused: Cost analysis says that is too much from going from 9th level spell requirements, back down to a 1st level spell and applying them without adjusting for the power differences.
The point was mainly that wish had some serious drawbacks for the adventuring party every cast and it risked leaving you out of commission for days in exchange for that "control", whereas magic missile is "simply" a burst of energy. I realized after the fact that citing maximize spell was probably the better option, but as I said, I was afk by then.

shadzar
2009-05-21, 10:47 AM
I'm not saying the Wish should go off perfectly, every time. I'm saying that Wishing for a boopin map should get you a pretty darn good map of the surrounding area. Heck, at that power level, it ought to be a topographical map of the surrounding 10 miles, with all landmarks listed, as well as any natural resources and the dens of any dangerous animals. Not a puzzle box.

:smallannoyed: You get a map made by a kender, not detailed floorplans of each nail in every wall by the architect and carpenters.

Wish is a flat rate spell. 2d4 as a variable only comes into play once, not matter what is wished for. You lose the years.

No matter how simple or detailed a thing you wish for it casts the same, so getting what you wished for is all that matter, and you just got to make sure you wish for the right thing.

If you wish for osmething, I prefer to think it has to come from somewhere, but if you wish for information, then it is free to copy as knowledge holds no copyrights and is not restricted tot he laws of conservation of mass and energy.*

*I know magic isn't either, but the items form a Wish should be as most other spells cannot create permanent things our of thin air without being a cleric and using the power of the gods. :smalltongue:

Kylarra
2009-05-21, 10:51 AM
No matter how simple or detailed a thing you wish for it casts the same, so getting what you wished for is all that matter, and you just got to make sure you wish for the right thing.
Technically in 2e you can wish for: healing, ress, or teleport without being bedridden. :smallwink:

shadzar
2009-05-21, 10:57 AM
Technically in 2e you can wish for: healing, ress, or teleport without being bedridden. :smallwink:

There are a few more that would be silly to be bedridden after as well. But they will depend on the common sense of your DM.

The only thing I know a wish cannot do is make one younger, due to the cost of aging 5 years to cast it, however you could wish for a potion of youth that can remove/regain up to 12 years for you (Potion of Longevity). :smallconfused:

Kylarra
2009-05-21, 11:00 AM
As we've seen in this thread, the idea of "common sense" appears to fly out the window with some DMs. :smalltongue:

Typewriter
2009-05-21, 11:05 AM
Another thing to consider when discussing the power of wishes is what exactly is happening during the casting of the spell.

A wizard casting it is bending reality to his will by harnessing great magic power and a chunk of himself. If he wishes for something off of the chart, then fine - no big deal. If he asks a friendly genie - no big deal.

But the wish spell is limited. It's limited by player knowledge. Someone earlier used an example of wishing for a +5 int tome that was already created. Knowledge of such an item might be available to a high power wizard, especially if he has knowledge skills in all the right places.

But he's bending the spell to his will. Does he know where this +5 tome is? Does he know who has it? So he casts wish and wishes for this +5 tome that existed prior, and his magic scries for the location or this item, and then teleports it to him? The description of wish says it can replicate any spell effect as one of it's base effects, but not two.

Or does the magic that you're harnessing simply know the location of what you're wishing for. I would argue that it does not - it only knows what you know.


Fluffwise, I'm all for it and I think it makes for a lot of fun. Mechanics wise though, wish is highly limited. You can make things, you can replicate effects, etc. etc.

But where is it ever implied(except in fluff) that the spell can do a whole lot else without great knowledge of the character. I say that if you wished for a genie to do something it is now based upon the knowledge of the genie, or your capability as the caster to explain it to him.

Of course there is this line:
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

But that line doesn't say it grants you unlimited knowledge/power in casting your wish. Your still limited.


That being said, I ignore most of what I stated as it's my personal interpretation of the rules, and I dont think it's very fun. Wishes are supposed to be awesome and fun, and should be treated as much - except for when players are trying for too much.

And I hate those DMs who grant the wish by doing something completely unrelated.

Ie., you wish for great wealth, and die for no reason.

shadzar
2009-05-21, 11:15 AM
As we've seen in this thread, the idea of "common sense" appears to fly out the window with some DMs. :smalltongue:

HEY! I resemble that remark!