Gender and how society treats you

[Nameless]

Yes it is being disrespectful to the gender, because when 99.99% of porn has this negative representation of women, well... it's just undeniably offensive. :smallconfused:

No, 99% of porn aimed at men is disrespectful to the women because that's what sells best and that's what a lot of men find erotic. Very few of these porn’s are actually saying "All women should be treated like this" ... Apart from some maybe.

[Faulty]

No, 99% of porn aimed at men is disrespectful to the women because that's what sells best and that's what a lot of men find erotic. Very few of these porn’s are actually saying "All women should be treated like this" ... Apart from some maybe.

Just because it's aimed at men doesn't mean it's any less sexist. I'm not gonna follow up on this post, though, because you've proven yourself impossible to negotiate with many times through the thread and are doing so again.

[almyki]

I don't find it horribly offensive myself, because if I were to do so, I'd be a total hypocrite =P . I don't look at porn mags or videos or anything, I'm just a yaoi/yuri fangirl that happens to read criminal amounts of explicit fanfiction that would make a sailor blush. Maybe most of the porn videos and shoots are aimed at men, but eh, girls find their own way to express their sexual appetites.

I think women may just prefer to use their imagination and the more intimate, emotional nature of writing and other forms of fantasizing rather than just straight-up watching XXX on a screen. ...Well, just a theory. I mean, the legions of yaoi fangirls can not be denied XD ! Also waaay too much of our XXX fantasy content is 'disrespectful, objectifying, crude, etc., etc., etc.' to the men being portrayed for me to be able to take offense at the same for women without guilt. I enjoy reading it, but that doesn't mean I hold the same attitudes for real people, since it's just a fantasy =P . You can do all sorts of terrible things in fantasies, because you know it's not real.

Then again, I don't look at actual photographs of actual porn, or videos of the same. Having more tasteful depictions in general would definitely be a plus.

<3 ali

EDIT: And, er, I don't think I'm sexist for liking that stuff :/ . Lots of normal, healthy girls do, just like lots of normal, not-sexist guys do. I think both sides do it to some extent, and always will, regardless of how far equality of genders go (unless sexual appetites are suppressed in all of humanity...?)

[Quincunx]

Haggling, eh? You could say that sex offered by men is a negative-interest currency, and take the pun damage. (Go back in financial news about three months where actual currencies were about to go into negative interest if the governments cut the interest rates much further, and you should find an explanation of the phenomenon. It's as fascinating as learning about negative numbers for the first time.)

No one has been able to answer to my satisfaction why oppression makes for a desirable fantasy, and that includes the oppression of women as objects which makes up mainstream porn [EDIT: and that does include ninja posters :P] [EDIT_02: neeeeeeeeeeeenja hour! I'm leaving for a few to let all the new posts land!]

[Recaiden]

No, 99% of porn aimed at men is disrespectful to the women because that's what sells best and that's what a lot of men find erotic. Very few of these porn’s are actually saying "All women should be treated like this" ... Apart from some maybe.

Which I'm pretty sure is the majority of it. So it is disrespectful to them. And even if it doesn't support treating people like that on purpose, how widespread it is can.

@Quin: I would imagine that it's the idea of being in control and having a sense of power.

[almyki]

Oppression can be sexy because it implies control, being controlled, danger, but still being desired, without actually ever having to be in danger or perform these actions. Being oppressed and objectified can also be a kink for some people. The sensation of having your entire fate controlled by another person, out of your hands, knowing both that you are helpless but that the person who is oppressing you is also, in a way, helpless to his own desires for you? Feeling wanted, controlled by someone who is in control? Confidence, aggression, and power can be very sexy.

Well, I could go on, but, er, I'll stop here. Needless to say, it's a large kink for both males and females. Tons of people have these sorts of fantasies without actually believing in those sorts of beliefs, or sexism.

<3 ali

EDIT: Dammit, too late XP !

[Nameless]

Just because it's aimed at men doesn't mean it's any less sexist. I'm not gonna follow up on this post, though, because you've proven yourself impossible to negotiate with many times through the thread and are doing so again.

Should I be taking offence when the rolls are reversed? :smallconfused:

I mean, the person is in control, yeah, but the person still "desires" the person and vice-versa, no?
Which means it's being done for sexual pleasure, and not to say that that gender should be treated badly.

[averagejoe]

No one has been able to answer to my satisfaction why oppression makes for a desirable fantasy, and that includes the oppression of women as objects which makes up mainstream porn [EDIT: and that does include ninja posters :P]

A lot of it is about trust. To have another person trust you enough, to wholly abandon themselves and their well being to you is a very intimate and desirable thing. I once had someone describe their love for their child in terms of how the baby reacts to you when born, that it trusts you so completely and without question. Not being a parent, I suspect the attractiveness of oppression is a similar thing. There are few things people can do to bring each other closer together than to trust one another.

[Nameless]

Oppression can be sexy because it implies control, being controlled, danger, but still being desired, without actually ever having to be in danger or perform these actions. Being oppressed and objectified can also be a kink for some people. The sensation of having your entire fate controlled by another person, out of your hands, knowing both that you are helpless but that the person who is oppressing you is also, in a way, helpless to his own desires for you? Feeling wanted, controlled by someone who is in control? Confidence, aggression, and power can be very sexy.

Well, I could go on, but, er, I'll stop here. Needless to say, it's a large kink for both males and females. Tons of people have these sorts of fantasies without actually believing in those sorts of beliefs, or sexism.

<3 ali

EDIT: Dammit, too late XP !

Yeah, I don’t actually think it has a lot to do with gender a lot of the time. I think it’s more to do with having someone in control in sex. Whether it’s the man or women. One person in control, the other is submissive. It’s even in homosexual porn, and it can’t be sexist there.
I think it’s the “control” thing that’s erotic, not the person who’s in control.

[averagejoe]

It’s even in homosexual porn, and it can’t be sexist there.

:smallconfused: I'm not entirely sure you know what sexism is.

[Nameless]

:smallconfused: I'm not entirely sure you know what sexism is.

It means believing that one gender is inferior, or not equal to the other.
"All women are stupid and less inelegant then men" would be a sexist remark.

[LXH]

Er... textwall, sorry. It's my default setting when posting (which is why I typically don't...) :shrugs helplessly:




@LXH
While I'm all for equality of the sexes and standing up for your rights and such, I have to say that I see truth in these words.

In general, having equal status such as being paid the same amount for the same job, same education expectations, viewing them as equally capable as each other, etc., is what we're all reaching for, yes? But personally, I can't help but feel a bit flexible with gender roles and who is expected to do what, and what isn't necessarily 'bad' even though it is not completely equal. I view many small gestures and variances such as a man paying for a dinner or a woman making dinner as generally harmless. They are ingrained into our culture, and even though they give some micro-variations of 'unfairness', I feel that they also help to give society texture and diversity. There will always be at least some things that will be expected differently from men and from women, because they are different and they interact with each other differently. It may cause problems, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a negative thing or a thing that must be 'corrected'.

If people feel a need to 'correct' something, because they feel it is unfair, such as splitting or paying for a bill, then eventually they probably will. Or at least have a lot of fun squabbling over whether they should or not =P . I feel that so long as these differences are generally somewhat 'superficial' (rather than more serious issues dealing with things such as rights, workplace, education, overall attitudes and treatment) , that it's not worth throwing too much of a fuss over or looking too closely at. It's... sort of counterproductive. It makes the whole cause seem as petty and trivial as the tiny issue that some people are making too much of a fuss out of.

If a man insists insists on paying, despite what the woman says, I think it's kind of silly to take it as a warning sign that they don't care about women's opinions and may have control issues, unless they start yelling or getting hostile (which, frankly, just isn't normal and probably has more to do with his individual personality than anything else). They might just feel it is important because that's what their parents have always impressed on them or that they really don't feel comfortable to have you pay as their date (it may make them feel guilty, like a bad date, or ungentlemanly or otherwise) .

To compare how they may feel about the issue to a similar situation... If someone got a friend a gift or gave them something of theirs, they would not want their friend to pay them for that gift, or to 'split the cost' of it. The giver will likely insist on not being paid, never accept any money from their friend for it, and feel insulted/have their pride hurt if their friend kept insisting on otherwise. If such a small sign is actually indicative of larger problems fueled by a conservatively traditional mindset, it'll be sure to show itself in some larger form eventually. It is, of course, your choice who you date and feel comfortable with, but I don't think that that's how women in general should start thinking or judging situations on.

And, well, anyway, having it be different wouldn't exactly change too much in terms of the overall attitudes concerning gender roles. But I do admit that it can subtly reflect something of our culture and mindset. In Korea, where age and seniority are considered very important, it is typically the oldest person in the group who pays for the whole meal, and not just on dates, but in group outings and with friends as well. The attitude is 'The eldest should take responsibility and care for their juniors' (which is a two-way street since juniors are expected to listen to seniors) . The concept of 'the man should pay instead of the woman' is definitely not as strong at all, but I'm pretty sure they deal with even more sexism problems than America.


Perhaps I am looking too far into your posts when you do not actually feel so strongly as I think you may, or have otherwise unintentionally made some kind of insulting assumption, and if I did my apologies. Please correct me ^^; . But with all this discussion, it just feels so unnecessarily nitpicky and over-analyzed, which I feel can sometimes be a good practice but a lot of times can go too far. It's just a bill, you know? To take helping to pay so seriously is just as bad as the man taking paying for it himself seriously. Consider that it could be just as insulting for them as the issue is with you, and you may not be correct in thinking that they are wrong for thinking that way. I know that you assent that woman can sometimes be wrong, and men can sometimes be right; you are not close-minded, in general. But it feels like on this issue you find it flat-out an insulting thing to do for a man to be so insistent and 'inconsiderate' (when being too pushy, not of all men that wish to pay for their dates) .

<3 ali

EDIT: Oh, yes, and the 'trap' of becoming 'indebted' to a man for paying for you. I don't think that has as much to do with sexism and gender roles as it more just has to do with you as a human being and an individual. I'm like that too (with money in general) , so I get why you just wouldn't like dates like that. But I wouldn't feel quite insulted if my date insisted on paying. Maybe I try to take such gestures too much at face value, but I'd probably think that it was nice of them, personally.

I was going to do a point-by-point but I can see what the common thread of disagreement is between us by going off your final paragraph, so I'm going to hit upon that instead.

I don't see anything or take anything at face value. I don't believe in face value. Even the most harmless of gender roles exists due to assumptions and roles that have proven to often be damaging to the group as a whole, and each has far reaching implications and tendrils that reach into other aspects of our lives. Dating a guy who wants to pay for a meal is fine; dating one who believes it's his responsibility to pay for every meal means somewhere along the way we had assignments passed out. His was to pay for dinner and to provide, and that leaves me worrying over what he thinks mine is.

For every innocuous "this is what I'm supposed to do for you" gesture, there is an unspoken "and this is what I expect you to do for me" implication behind it. I certainly don't judge people who live their lives differently from me, but I do know my incompatibilities when I see them. Chalk it up to growing up in a house with a conservative father who pressured my mother into giving up her career and social life because there was "no higher place" for a woman than to be at home with the kids while her husband provided. I'm fine with women staying home, but I like it to be a choice made free from roles and expectations, and I don't see that kind of pressure as too far removed from the "who pays for dinner?" discussion.

Edit: And I don't "over-analyze" things. I look at behavior and I make the judgment call about how I feel regarding someone's pushiness and disregard for my feelings on the matter. That's more like "analyzing," and it's what I do. If you really look at the term "face value," the implication there is not that it is what it seems, but that one is willfully taking something at a surface level value despite acknowledging the presence of something more beneath. I don't care about people choosing to look at things this way, nor do I dismiss them as "silly," but I have my own way of seeing people and their actions, and it serves me rather well.

[Ziren]

I have more problem with the leather than the women being tied up. Nothing wrong with BDSM.


You don't need to tell me, I'm past the phase of self-loathing :smallamused:
There's also nothing wrong with leather-fetish, what I meant by it not being equal is that it's almost always a woman in the submissive/desired position. I guess most photographers (and pretty much every porn director) simply don't know how to portray a male as sexy, especially not in a submissive position. A shame, really :smallfrown:

[LXH]

You don't need to tell me, I'm past the phase of self-loathing :smallamused:
There's also nothing wrong with leather-fetish, what I meant by it not being equal is that it's almost always a woman in the submissive/desired position. I guess most photographers (and pretty much every porn director) simply don't know how to portray a male as sexy, especially not in a submissive position. A shame, really :smallfrown:
I think his problem with the leather is the fact that it's leather.

Just FYI FWIW IFAIK SYK IMO.

[Ziren]

You know that there's such a thing as synthetic leather?

[LXH]

You know that there's such a thing as synthetic leather?
You're asking me if I know about synthetic leather when I was clarifying what I think another person was objecting to? How does that even make sense?

[Ziren]

You're asking me if I know about synthetic leather when I was clarifying what I think another person was objecting to? How does that even make sense?

My line of thought went somewhat like this:

Amesoeurs doesn't have a problem with BDSM but with leather fetish -> writing a reply stating that there's also nothing wrong about leather fetish -> you answer, that Amesoeurs problem wasn't the leather being fetishized, but the fact that it's leather (at which point I concluded, that the only rational reason about this would be, that you kill and skin animals for leather) -> me thinking: Hmm... but there's a way to get leather without killing animals, I should totally post that


Care to explain to me where I got it wrong?

[LXH]

My line of thought went somewhat like this:

Amesoeurs doesn't have a problem with BDSM but with leather fetish -> writing a reply stating that there's also nothing wrong about leather fetish -> you answer, that Amesoeurs problem wasn't the leather being fetishized, but the fact that it's leather (at which point I concluded, that the only rational reason about this would be, that you kill and skin animals for leather) -> me thinking: Hmm... but there's a way to get leather without killing animals, I should totally post that


Care to explain to me where I got it wrong?
Right, but synthetic leather isn't animal hide, which obviously wouldn't be the problem. I was clarifying because your response in no way indicated that you understood what he was referring to. You just said "there's nothing wrong with a leather fetish." How does that come across as me not knowing what synthetic leather is?

[Ziren]

By the way you explained it, it appeared to me that you shared his opinion (which might not be the case, just came across like that).

The fact that leather can be manufactured synthetically lets the argument, that leather is bad because you kill animals for it, collapse faster than a house of cards in a hurricane.

[LXH]

By the way you explained it, it appeared to me that you shared his opinion (which might not be the case, just came across like that).

The fact that leather can be manufactured synthetically lets the argument, that leather is bad because you kill animals for it, collapse faster than a house of cards in a hurricane.
I said, and I quote: "I think his problem with the leather is the fact that it's leather." In what universe does that even remotely look like I'm talking about myself other than what I think HE is talking about?

Do you really think the objection is to synthetic leather? You know what he's talking about, just as I'm sure he knows there is synthetic leather. "Leather" as a default subject with no caveats means leather off of animals, and if it didn't mean that automatically, it certainly should be assumed if someone says they have a problem with it.

It's pretty disingenuous to claim otherwise. You're being really defensive for no reason. The only reason for my post was to point out what I think Amesoeurs meant because you glossed over it in your reply. What that has to do with *my* knowledge of synthetic leather is completely beyond me.

[Coidzor]

I dunno, I'm not convinced that the demand wouldn't exist for porn where, at least, the woman orgasms (other than that it might scare some by witnessing such an event for the first time), rather that when it comes to porn... individual preference is limited by what's available and known about. Almost every person in the U.S. for example has heard of playboy and hustler, but not many either have or will admit to have any knowledge of pornographers more intimate than that.

In the way that porn tries to appeal to so many niches it so often defaults to a minimal effort least common denominator formula of escapist fantasy of patriarchy with a woman or women who aren't the kind for marrying... More because it's just easier for the producers than that's what consumers explicitly want and are asking for.

Hell, there's been a number of people on this thread who like the idea of porn just fine but find the execution grating and would love to know about alternative sources that aren't just going to be worse, as it usually gets the more fetishes are involved/played up. So the market is stymied by the limited, generic sources being very much the same and with little ability to find alternatives and little ability for alternatives to broadcast their existence due to the social position....

...

...

Isn't it a bit superfluous whether synthetic leather is included in leather fetishes or the inventory of fetishes which typically use a fair amount of leather? There'll still be those who insist upon the real deal, either as part of a power kick or y'know, the genuine leather mentality.

Leather Subplot: ARGH!

[Ziren]

I said, and I quote: "I think his problem with the leather is the fact that it's leather." In what universe does that even remotely look like I'm talking about myself other than what I think HE is talking about?


Okay, I misread that as "I think the problem with the leather is the fact that it's leather." My fault here, obviously. I'm sorry.


Do you really think the objection is to synthetic leather? You know what he's talking about, just as I'm sure he knows there is synthetic leather. "Leather" as a default subject with no caveats means leather off of animals, and if it didn't mean that automatically, it certainly should be assumed if someone says they have a problem with it.

No, I didn't think he had objections to synthetic leather. Yes, I did assume that he forgot about it existing when he made his statement. I've never met any leather fetishist who had the affection to the material because it was part of dead animals, but because of how it smells, feels and tastes. To my knowledge, synthetic leather emulates those characteristics to the point where it's indistinguishable from the "real" stuff, so there's really no reason that leather in context with "leather fetish" would exclude the synthetic material.

[Faulty]

No one has been able to answer to my satisfaction why oppression makes for a desirable fantasy, and that includes the oppression of women as objects which makes up mainstream porn

Concerning domination, I could imagine, say, a person who is often in control, wanting to experience a situation where they can be released from the stress of control, and experiencing that sexually, if you catch my meaning.

I imagine there's also a level of thrill, the thrill of doing something dangerous. There's that thrill and excitement, but it's in a comfortable situation either in a fantasy you control or with a romantic/sexual partner or partners you can trust, who'll stop if you say a safe word.


Oppression can be sexy because it implies control, being controlled, danger, but still being desired, without actually ever having to be in danger or perform these actions. Being oppressed and objectified can also be a kink for some people. The sensation of having your entire fate controlled by another person, out of your hands, knowing both that you are helpless but that the person who is oppressing you is also, in a way, helpless to his own desires for you? Feeling wanted, controlled by someone who is in control? Confidence, aggression, and power can be very sexy.

Roleplaying like that can be (is IMO) pretty sexy, but when most heterosexual porn displays women being subjugated by men in some way, there's something seriously wrong.


Should I be taking offence when the rolls are reversed? :smallconfused:

Well, duh. :smallannoyed:


I mean, the person is in control, yeah, but the person still "desires" the person and vice-versa, no?

Desire does not mean respect, and you can desire something that is not good for you.


There's also nothing wrong with leather-fetish, what I meant by it not being equal is that it's almost always a woman in the submissive/desired position. I guess most photographers (and pretty much every porn director) simply don't know how to portray a male as sexy, especially not in a submissive position. A shame, really :smallfrown:

I'm becoming a vegan, hence my problem with the leather. :smallwink: Yes, I do agree that I have a problem with the fact that it's generally women. I dunno how one would portray men as sexy personally, but that's because I'm only attracted to a minority of men.

I don't really have a leather fetish, so to speak, but I find the idea of sexually dominating attractive, which is strange because I really have a distaste for dominating people in relationships otherwise, and would want a romantic partnership, rather than one person being dominant over the other.


Hell, there's been a number of people on this thread who like the idea of porn just fine but find the execution grating and would love to know about alternative sources that aren't just going to be worse

Feminist Porn Awards. :smallredface:

LXH and Ziren, you can stop. :smalltongue:

[Ziren]

I'm becoming a vegan, hence my problem with the leather. :smallwink: Yes, I do agree that I have a problem with the fact that it's generally women. I dunno how one would portray men as sexy personally, but that's because I'm only attracted to a minority of men.

I don't really have a leather fetish, so to speak, but I find the idea of sexually dominating attractive, which is strange because I really have a distaste for dominating people in relationships otherwise, and would want a romantic partnership, rather than one person being dominant over the other.


24/7 BDSM-relationships are the exception rather than the rule. Personally, I'm more on the submissive part, but I wouldn't want to obedient outside of the bedroom (unless in a event where there's an obvious timed end to it, i.e. festivals or conventions). That said, I don't judge people who pursue a TPE relationship, but the concept is as odd to me as the idea of BDSM in general is to the majority of the population.



LXH and Ziren, you can stop. :smalltongue:

Yessir, stopping right now :smallwink:

[Coidzor]

Yeah, I don’t actually think it has a lot to do with gender a lot of the time. I think it’s more to do with having someone in control in sex. Whether it’s the man or women. One person in control, the other is submissive. It’s even in homosexual porn, and it can’t be sexist there.
I think it’s the “control” thing that’s erotic, not the person who’s in control.

Hmm, I'm starting to get reminded of what people say about rape being about control and power....


...And come to think of it, I think the strong association with rape that I've developed in my conception of yaoi explains why I'm so leery of its existence... Something about learning to love your rapist and abuser grates me regardless of who has what plumbing.

[Faulty]

24/7 BDSM-relationships are the exception rather than the rule. Personally, I'm more on the submissive part, but I wouldn't want to obedient outside of the bedroom (unless in a event where there's an obvious timed end to it, i.e. festivals or conventions). That said, I don't judge people who pursue a TPE relationship, but the concept is as odd to me as the idea of BDSM in general is to the majority of the population.

I know a girl who wants to be totally dominated to the point of dehumanisation. It kinda creeps me out. : \ I just think there might be a connection between opposites in people's personal and sexual lives.


Something about learning to love your rapist and abuser grates me regardless of who has what plumbing.

Dude, the premise of girls/guys being raped and liking it is pretty much 90% of hentai. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Wow, this shirt (http://conchtees.com/shirt/men/we-can-make-babies.php)'s offensive.

[Serpentine]

I've already mentioned my views on sexism in porn, and got called sexist, sick and idiotic for it.
...

Where were all you people when I was agreeing with you and getting torn to shreds for it?! :smallmad:

I like Wulf Archives <.< Plenty of sexual equality. Has just about every erotic combination you can think of! :smallbiggrin: In fact, most of the time (in what I've read so far, at least), it's "poor little Wulf is forced into a situation where some woman insists that they have sex/someone else is forcing him to have sex with one or more people (women? I haven't seen him get it on with a man yet, but I haven't read much)/supernatural goings-on makes sex just inevitable".

[Coidzor]

I've already mentioned my views on sexism in porn, and got called sexist, sick and idiotic for it.
...

Where were all you people when I was agreeing with you and getting torn to shreds for it?! :smallmad:


Confused by the walls of text and why everyone was getting bent out of shape about things. Also unsure of how to meaningfully add to what was going on other than to watch it develop.

I didn't recall seeing anyone call you stupid though. Sorry. That was uncalled for.


I like Wulf Archives <.< Plenty of sexual equality. Has just about every erotic combination you can think of! :smallbiggrin: In fact, most of the time (in what I've read so far, at least), it's "poor little Wulf is forced into a situation where some woman insists that they have sex/someone else is forcing him to have sex with one or more people (women? I haven't seen him get it on with a man yet, but I haven't read much)/supernatural goings-on makes sex just inevitable".

That just sounds unpleasant though, to make a continuity out of this character's sexual coercion.

Actually, I think that's partially feeds into why I find yaoi and its ilk to have a higher potential for creeping me out. That there's a track record of the abuse visited upon the individuals and a need to continually top what was last visited upon the poor sod.

Amesoeurs: It's not the worst I've seen, and it seems to fit in a certain cult of woman, fear the mystery and power of the engines of human reproduction element of jocularity I've come across. It's trite and juveniles, but considering the tongue-in-cheek nature of that class....

[Nameless]

Well, duh. :smallannoyed:

Well, I don't. :smallsmile:



EDIT: Wow, this shirt (http://conchtees.com/shirt/men/we-can-make-babies.php)'s offensive.


I showed that shirt to my female friend.
She found it funny. :smalltongue:

[Serpentine]

Well, really I think it's mostly more "he didn't seek it out, honest! It just happened to him without any initiative on his part!" Some of it is, 'strue, out-and-out rape or close enough to it (e.g. when he was forced to "perform" with two fellow, female slaves in front of a big crowd at a slave auction), but it wasn't really as though he was going from sexual abuse to sexual abuse.
Okay, to be fair, I wasn't called "stupid" here. I was called biased and narrow-minded, though. It just would've been nice to know that I wasn't alone in what I was saying and/or that someone else knew what I was trying to get at :smallannoyed: :smallfrown:

[Coidzor]

Well, really I think it's mostly more "he didn't seek it out, honest! It just happened to him without any initiative on his part!" Some of it is, 'strue, out-and-out rape or close enough to it (e.g. when he was forced to "perform" with two fellow, female slaves in front of a big crowd at a slave auction), but it wasn't really as though he was going from sexual abuse to sexual abuse.

Okay, to be fair, I wasn't called "stupid" here. I was called biased and narrow-minded, though. It just would've been nice to know that I wasn't alone in what I was saying and/or that someone else knew what I was trying to get at :smallannoyed: :smallfrown:

To be honest... I've mostly been lost throughout half of this thread. Most of my pitiful flailings to contribute have been as much to try to figure out what was going on as to keep the momentum going.

I guess that's better than the immediate conclusions I jumped to... haha. Definitely not my cup of tea though. I might decide to read a selection from it... but the genre has me dreading the interaction of fantasy and.... that genre... At least it's no Anne Rice's Sleeping Beauty... *shudder*

I'm starting to suspect that open-mindedness is as much of a myth as the idea of objectivity as something actually obtainable rather than constantly strived for in certain realms... Lord knows I'm biased, and everything I say is colored by it.:smalltongue:

[Faulty]

I've already mentioned my views on sexism in porn, and got called sexist, sick and idiotic for it.
...

Where were all you people when I was agreeing with you and getting torn to shreds for it?! :smallmad:

We <3 you, honest! By the way, I remember now. I was the one who initially sent you that Heartless Bitches thing. I think.


Amesoeurs: It's not the worst I've seen, and it seems to fit in a certain cult of woman, fear the mystery and power of the engines of human reproduction element of jocularity I've come across. It's trite and juveniles, but considering the tongue-in-cheek nature of that class....

Still freaks me out.


Well, I don't. :smallsmile:




I showed that shirt to my female friend.
She found it funny. :smalltongue:

More of your "I have one anecdotal example, so you're wrong" crap. :smallannoyed:



Let's all read Marquis de Sade!

[Nameless]

More of your "I have one anecdotal example, so you're wrong" crap. :smallannoyed:

Please stop that. :smallsigh:
I can't be wrong and I can't be right either because finding something offensive is down to personal opinion, it deppends how you look at it;
"This shirt is saying that all women are good for is making babies"
Or, more likely; "This shirt is stating the obvious but making it humorous by playing on an old poster caption"
I never claimed you were wrong and I never claimed you were right.
I can do a servay if you want me to though.



On a side note, that shirt gave me and idea. “We make sperm!” :smalltongue:

[mercurymaline]

EDIT: Wow, this shirt (http://conchtees.com/shirt/men/we-can-make-babies.php)'s offensive.

One /could/ read it as an honest interpretation of the Rosie the Riveter posters, i.e.; "We can do everything you can do, plus create freaking life!"

[LXH]

One /could/ read it as an honest interpretation of the Rosie the Riveter posters, i.e.; "We can do everything you can do, plus create freaking life!"
The description makes me think otherwise:

We Can Make Babies!
Rosie the Riveter empowers women to set high goals and blaze new trails of female domination. But, why put in so much effort when there is one thing women can do better than any man could ever do? "We Can Make Babies!" cries Rosie. I've never seen a man do that. (And no, that pregnant "man" on Oprah was not a "man" at all.) Hands down, if I wanted someone to push a melon-sized mass out of a...well the imagery gets pretty raw if I continue...but my point is, I'd rather have a woman handle it than any wimpy, feeble man.
Straw feminism and trans bashing all in one tidy, small paragraph. Very efficient. To say nothing of the "why try so hard when you're already so good at takin' in semen and spittin' out babies?" line.

[mercurymaline]

The description makes me think otherwise:

Straw feminism and trans bashing all in one tidy, small paragraph. Very efficient. To say nothing of the "why try so hard when you're already so good at takin' in semen and spittin' out babies?" line.

Conceded. I didn't read the site, just glanced at the image. My bad.

[LXH]

Conceded. I didn't read the site, just glanced at the image. My bad.

God, mercurymaline. God! :smalltongue:

[mercurymaline]

God, mercurymaline. God! :smalltongue:

Hey, now. I conceded the point. I was just trying to come up with a way in which that shirt would not be offensive.

[LXH]

Hey, now. I conceded the point. I was just trying to come up with a way in which that shirt would not be offensive.

Now I can't tell if you're serious or not. I was being sarcastic because I thought the "my bad" was unneeded. Just pointing out the description of the shirt and stuffs.

[mercurymaline]

Now I can't tell if you're serious or not. I was being sarcastic because I thought the "my bad" was unneeded. Just pointing out the description of the shirt and stuffs.

The "my bad" was unneeded. I am serious, in that this is a serious sort of topic, but relaxed, as in not upset at being proven wrong or anything. Did that make any sense?

To contribute to the thread (or detract from it, depending) some things I've stumbled across.

1 (http://www.dump.com/2009/06/06/for-every-girl-there-is-a-boy/) 2 (http://www.dump.com/2009/05/29/disney-rejection-letter-from-1938/) 3 (http://www.dump.com/2009/05/14/from-1970s-childrens-book/)

[LXH]

The "my bad" was unneeded. I am serious, in that this is a serious sort of topic, but relaxed, as in not upset at being proven wrong or anything. Did that make any sense?

To contribute to the thread (or detract from it, depending) some things I've stumbled across.

1 (http://www.dump.com/2009/06/06/for-every-girl-there-is-a-boy/) 2 (http://www.dump.com/2009/05/29/disney-rejection-letter-from-1938/) 3 (http://www.dump.com/2009/05/14/from-1970s-childrens-book/)
1 is :smallsmile:
2 is :smallfrown:
3 is :furious:

[mercurymaline]

1 is :smallsmile:
2 is :smallfrown:
3 is :furious:

I'm sure it's little consolation, but it's by no means a modern book. Also, Disney is the devil.

[LXH]

I'm sure it's little consolation, but it's by no means a modern book. Also, Disney is the devil.

It would be consolation but I encounter people who think that way every single day.

Not related, but looking at this picture made my feet go instantly numb. :smalleek:
http://www.dump.com/wp-content/uploads/DO-NOT-PASTE-THIS-URL-ON-ANY-FORUM-BLOG-OR-WEBSITE--LINK-WILL-CEASE-TO-BE-FUNCTIONAL-SHORTLY--PLEASE-LINK-ONLY-TO-URLS-CONTAINED-IN-THE-ADDRESS-BAR--CODE-48918279417/lunch.jpg

[mercurymaline]

It would be consolation but I encounter people who think that way every single day.

Not related, but looking at this picture made my feet go instantly numb. :smalleek:
http://www.dump.com/wp-content/uploads/DO-NOT-PASTE-THIS-URL-ON-ANY-FORUM-BLOG-OR-WEBSITE--LINK-WILL-CEASE-TO-BE-FUNCTIONAL-SHORTLY--PLEASE-LINK-ONLY-TO-URLS-CONTAINED-IN-THE-ADDRESS-BAR--CODE-48918279417/lunch.jpg

Don't know how real that pic is. Also, the green bottle looks to me like dish soap.

[LXH]

Don't know how real that pic is. Also, the green bottle looks to me like dish soap.
You've never eaten lunch atop a steel beam hovering over a valley thousands of feet below and then washed it down with a bottle of Dawn?

[SDF]

1 (http://www.dump.com/2009/06/06/for-every-girl-there-is-a-boy/)

I've had that poster in my room for a couple of years. Crimethinc has a lot of neat stuff like that. Their books are pretty interesting.

This is my favorite

http://www.crimethinc.com/tools/posters/stars_big.gif

[The Extinguisher]

Having been attacked semi-recently because I was being "sexist", I find the current trend in sexism toward guys disturbing and far to prevailing. It's getting ridiculous when people make statements like these:


From my experience: If a girl hits you, chances are that you somehow deserved it.

If you don't know what you did, think harder. You deserved it somehow.

Or how I do one thing that looks like I'm controlling my girlfriend, and suddenly I'm an "abuser", when 90% of the time, I'm naturally submissive and usually not in charge of majority of the time. Blar.

[mercurymaline]

Having been attacked semi-recently because I was being "sexist", I find the current trend in sexism toward guys disturbing and far to prevailing. It's getting ridiculous when people make statements like these:



Or how I do one thing that looks like I'm controlling my girlfriend, and suddenly I'm an "abuser", when 90% of the time, I'm naturally submissive and usually not in charge of majority of the time. Blar.

Well, what did you do to "appear controlling?" There's a fine line there.

[averagejoe]

3 is :furious:

It's kind of hilarious. If you look at the whole thing, it is basically assigning roles to boys and girls, the implication being that girls can't, or shouldn't, do things that the boys are depicted as doing and vice versa. However, looking at the third row, the implication is that girls can't/shouldn't eat. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, given the modern trends in female self image, the subtext is kind of horrifying. :smalleek:

[Coidzor]

The description makes me think otherwise:

Straw feminism and trans bashing all in one tidy, small paragraph. Very efficient. To say nothing of the "why try so hard when you're already so good at takin' in semen and spittin' out babies?" line.

Wow, I didn't find that and I was poking around there. Guess I rolled a 1 on my spot check....

I'm not going to defend how they said it, but the point of the argument remains that the hype around that particular story was overblown and... misconstrued... Men don't have a viable uterine lining or organ to support a fetus. I didn't get to catch anything other than the hype, though, so maybe there's a rationale that isn't completely alien to gender-binary-locked America. In all other matters, I don't have any problem with conceptualizing it, but... once reproduction gets mixed in there, it just becomes a mess. It's easy enough to class a transman or transwoman as a sterile man or woman if one knows, or not even stop to consider it if one doesn't know. Throw in having a baby in the manner opposite of what you present yourself as or have surgically altered yourself to become....

I'm rather curious as to whether that's very usual... to leave at least some of the internal organs intact.

And my mind is boggling at where in the hormone treatment the fetus was implanted or even how. Wouldn't that cause a large setback in the therapy to lead up to the genital reconstruction surgery if it were before hand... and the hormonal havock.... Sounds like it was a major headache and life-threatening even before the harassment and media got in on it.

...
...

...

Wait, I thought the average baby was smaller than a melon, at least in terms of diameter relative to the birth canal... :smallconfused: I've worked produce and... I've handled a few relatively newborn babies... I've yet to see or hear of a baby with a head even rivaling a melon though. Probably should've just gone with the human brain line...

My head hurts now. I think that about sums up my point. Maybe. I think I'm going to go have an existential crisis until my brain calms down.

[mercurymaline]

Some people leave some internal organs intact, some leave genitals unaltered. Depends on the doctors, cost, result desired, and a myriad of other options.

I never read the story, but perhaps this person wanted to have a child while they still could.

As for what hormone therapy would do to the fetus, that's the bit that worries me...

[LXH]

Some people leave some internal organs intact, some leave genitals unaltered. Depends on the doctors, cost, result desired, and a myriad of other options.

I never read the story, but perhaps this person wanted to have a child while they still could.

As for what hormone therapy would do to the fetus, that's the bit that worries me...
Any ethical fertility specialist would screen for that kind of thing. I know in the case of Thomas Beatty, he went off the T prior to fertilization and remained off until after child birth. I think I heard somewhere that he's pregnant again, so I'm guessing he's still off.

[mercurymaline]

Any ethical fertility specialist would screen for that kind of thing. I know in the case of Thomas Beatty, he went off the T prior to fertilization and remained off until after child birth. I think I heard somewhere that he's pregnant again, so I'm guessing he's still off.

Is that the case being discussed here, the one that was on Oprah or whatever? Sorry, I don't keep up on that sort of thing. I really should. *sigh* I'm a poor member of the LGBT community, I know.

[The Extinguisher]

Well, what did you do to "appear controlling?" There's a fine line there.

What I got the most flack for was keeping my girlfriend from smoking when she had stated she wanted to quit.

What I meant was more of, if I suggest to do something different or want to not do something.

[Coidzor]

What I got the most flack for was keeping my girlfriend from smoking when she had stated she wanted to quit.

What I meant was more of, if I suggest to do something different or want to not do something.

Then either you're surrounded by weirdos or you're reading into things that aren't there or they're disapproving of other things you're doing but you only catch it on trivial things.

[mercurymaline]

If it's a situation where you don't want to go to some event and she does, just make it clear you're still OK with her going. If you don't want her to go when you don't, that's a problem. But otherwise, it might just be miscommunication. Or, you might be surrounded by crazy people.

[LXH]

Is that the case being discussed here, the one that was on Oprah or whatever? Sorry, I don't keep up on that sort of thing. I really should. *sigh* I'm a poor member of the LGBT community, I know.

Yeah, that's the one. Actually, I think his wife injected the donor semen into him herself, so never mind on the whole "ethical doctor" part. But he is on record as having gone off testosterone prior to conception. I'm pretty sure he couldn't ovulate while on in the first place.

[Faulty]

Conceded. I didn't read the site, just glanced at the image. My bad.

Yeah. I take it especially seriously given the site also sells this (http://conchtees.com/shirt/men/obamunism.php)shirt.


2 (http://www.dump.com/2009/05/29/disney-rejection-letter-from-1938/)

That makes me so sad. :smallfrown: That must have been some woman's dream.


Crimethinc has a lot of neat stuff like that.]

Pretty well known Anarchist establishment. They released albums for this really awesome Hardcore band called The Spectacle. ;p

[Coidzor]

So my brother just went on a rant about Sigmund Freud, Penis envy, and the Home Shopping Network.

Yay. Just what I want to hear about when I'm about to go to bed at 2 AM. *facepalm*

[Nameless]

3 (http://www.dump.com/2009/05/14/from-1970s-childrens-book/)

The art looks older then the 70's. But, just... wow... :smallannoyed:

[Serpentine]

Found an interesting-looking feminist site/blog/thingy: "Zelda Lily: Feminism in a Bra" (http://zeldalily.com/) (whatever that means). From their "about us" bit:

About Zelda Lily
Zelda Lily aims to redefine feminism. We want to approach the term from a new angle. We want feminism to be about everything that being a woman entails.

A woman can be a full professor of physics at MIT, or a CEO of a Fortune 500 corporation. A woman can run a political campaign and a woman can win a political office. A woman can spear-head volunteer efforts at a national level or at a grass-roots level. A woman can run a hospital. A woman can run a salon. A woman can play football. A woman can host a dinner party. A woman can be a single mother. A woman can be pro-life. A woman can run a software company. A woman can be a porn star. A woman can run a bank. A woman can max out her credit cards. A woman can pick up the tab. A woman can be whisked off to Hawaii. A woman can accept and love her body. A woman can get liposuction and a nose job. A woman can produce a hard-hitting documentary. A woman can watch The Hills. A woman can love her husband. A woman can love her wife. And a woman, of course, can love her new Manolos and the perfect little purse she got to match.

We’re pulling feminism away from its cave of ideology and bringing it back into our day-to-day lives. We want to encourage women to talk about everything that being a woman can entail, and everything that a woman may want or fear or love.

We’re putting feminism back in bra. Some bits of that seem a bit iffy to me - "redifining feminism" and "its cave of ideology" for starters, but mostly it looks pretty interesting and reasonable.

[LXH]

Found an interesting-looking feminist site/blog/thingy: "Zelda Lily: Feminism in a Bra" (http://zeldalily.com/) (whatever that means). From their "about us" bit:
Some bits of that seem a bit iffy to me - "redifining feminism" and "its cave of ideology" for starters, but mostly it looks pretty interesting and reasonable.
It seems like a decent enough site, but I have to wonder what brand of feminism they see themselves as being different from. The "new angle" they're approaching it from is the same angle every mainstream feminism site takes, with a possible additional emphasis on pop culture.

[Quincunx]

Well-supported, maybe? I dunno. Sounds in alignment with myself though, shifting the definitions of all-that-is-not-myself to be feminine because it is mine and I am female. Veering towards Girl Thread material, that, the decisions coming from the individual instead of the society.

Gender, pay and 'misleading' stats (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2009/06/womens_minister_used_misleadin.html) - another look at recent statistics that is slightly more in-depth than the headline. Enjoy the small table which sparked it all.

As far as T-shirts go, I regret that a certain XKCD reader beat me to the thought of "Help I'm trapped in a people factory".

[ThunderCat]

What does "hardly something to crow about" (fourth paragraph in the article) mean? I'm not a native speaker, and I haven't heard this expression before.

[Serpentine]

To crow about something (like a rooster crows) is to... exclaim about how good it is, be loud and proud about it, boast about it to everyone, that sort of thing. So it's saying that while the "more correct" figure is smaller than the reported figure, it's still not exactly good.

[golfmade]

Society here treats me like a foreigner with a big nose. I know this because many people say so, "Hey look, it's a foreigner with a big nose!"

[Faulty]

Society here treats me like a foreigner with a big nose. I know this because many people say so, "Hey look, it's a foreigner with a big nose!"

Wait, what?

[Quincunx]

I believe golfmade knows more of the local language than the locals expect him to. :smallwink:

[DamnedIrishman]

Mainly irrelevant, but what the hell: why do some men like skinny women? Basically, the skinnier a woman is the more she looks like an adolescent. What's with that?

[Ichneumon]

Mainly irrelevant, but what the hell: why do some men like skinny women? Basically, the skinnier a woman is the more she looks like an adolescent. What's with that?

You think there is something wrong with adolescents?:smallamused:

[Coidzor]

You think there is something wrong with adolescents?:smallamused:

Yeah, they're adolescent. :smallyuk: And anytime anyone invokes it, there's the implication of being underdeveloped and inexperienced in a bad, tittering way.

[Phaedra]

Mainly irrelevant, but what the hell: why do some men like skinny women? Basically, the skinnier a woman is the more she looks like an adolescent. What's with that?

How skinny are we talking here? Like slender but still healthy or "I can see your rib cage" skinny? Because I've never understood attraction to the latter either, unhealthiness isn't attractive. Being attracted to slender women, on the other hand, is really just a matter of personal taste.

I don't really see skinny = adolescent looking, to be honest. A 25yr old woman who happens to be skinny still looks (and acts) 25 and a curvaceous 15yr old will still look 15.

[Ziren]

Mainly irrelevant, but what the hell: why do some men like skinny women? Basically, the skinnier a woman is the more she looks like an adolescent. What's with that?

I'd rather say that the smaller a woman is the more she looks like an adolescent. Still, most guys I know seem to be into girls that are much smaller than them. Those days it's probably more social norm that builds this attraction than anything else.

[mercurymaline]

How skinny are we talking here? Like slender but still healthy or "I can see your rib cage" skinny? Because I've never understood attraction to the latter either, unhealthiness isn't attractive. Being attracted to slender women, on the other hand, is really just a matter of personal taste.

I don't really see skinny = adolescent looking, to be honest. A 25yr old woman who happens to be skinny still looks (and acts) 25 and a curvaceous 15yr old will still look 15.

People who are malnourished during puberty won't develop properly. So teenagers who are anorexic or bulemic may never mature completely, at least physically, and would probably look young forever.

[Faulty]

http://images.askmen.com/galleries/actress/natalie-portman/pictures/natalie-portman-picture-1.jpg

That is too skinny in my opinion. But I sorta think she's attractive, sorta, after hearing "Natalie Portman's Rap". I like aggressive women.

[mercurymaline]

I think Hollywood's fascination with overly skinny women is that they can sit, sprawl, twist, turn, whatever without creating "pudge." When a person of healthy weight sits down or something similar, they get a bit pudgy. You know what I mean, that unattractive stomach pooch thingy. Actresses, at least, are not supposed to look like that.

[Ichneumon]

I think Hollywood's fascination with overly skinny women is that they can sit, sprawl, twist, turn, whatever without creating "pudge." When a person of healthy weight sits down or something similar, they get a bit pudgy. You know what I mean, that unattractive stomach pooch thingy. Actresses, at least, are not supposed to look like that.

I've learned a new word today.

[Faulty]

Pudge can be sorta sexy.

[Coidzor]

Pudge can be sorta sexy.

But can also be latched onto by your lover in order for them to cause you psychological and emotional abuse. Or by yourself in order to cause self-inflicted trauma.

Sort of a mixed bag, really.


People who are malnourished during puberty won't develop properly. So teenagers who are anorexic or bulemic may never mature completely, at least physically, and would probably look young forever.

I know. Disgusting. Especially since being a boy you have it pounded into you that you'll be considered a pitiful half-human thing if you do anything that could stunt your growth.

[Arachu]

*re-steps-back-in*

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but has anyone noticed that-

A) Slender females 'must have eating disorders',

B) Males 'cannot have eating disorders', and

C) All females 'are obsessive and insecure', while men 'never feel overweight'?

As you can see, there are a few tiny, fundamental flaws in those. You know, the bits that assume any concept to have universal truth :roy:

((just in case) That comment was against such stereotypes. It was sarcastic...)

Though that did remind me... Once, I heard a (female) comedian assert that women always feel fat, while men never feel fat.

I'm overweight (losing fast, but still there), and I beg to differ. Plus, I know 'overweight' females that are perfectly comfortable with themselves.

Not to sound angry or anything (though, admittedly, a tad sarcastic at least), it's just that that's been bothering me for a while...

[LXH]

*re-steps-back-in*

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but has anyone noticed that-

A) Slender females 'must have eating disorders',

B) Males 'cannot have eating disorders', and

C) All females 'are obsessive and insecure', while men 'never feel overweight'?

As you can see, there are a few tiny, fundamental flaws in those. You know, the bits that assume any concept to have universal truth :roy:

((just in case) That comment was against such stereotypes. It was sarcastic...)

Though that did remind me... Once, I heard a (female) comedian assert that women always feel fat, while men never feel fat.

I weigh 300 pounds (losing fast, but still there), and I beg to differ. Plus, I know 'overweight' females that are perfectly comfortable with themselves.

Not to sound angry or anything (though, admittedly, a tad sarcastic at least), it's just that that's been bothering me for a while...
Society at large has a penchant for taking the truth of a trend and simplifying it to the point that it either must cover everyone, ever, or not be true at all. The middle ground to these bits of conventional wisdom lies more along the lines of men being not as pressured to be waif thin. We can see some evidence of this in Hollywood trends, the most recent being the observation that the film industry's leading men are getting larger but are still getting as many leading roles as ever (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/29/earlyshow/leisure/boxoffice/main4977923.shtml?source=RSSattr=Entertainment_497 7923). I'm not so sure Megan, Angelina and the gang could pull that feat off.

Though there are some very dangerous trends in more recent decades surrounding men and body image, on the whole our culture still presents the ideal male body as one that is healthy, muscular, and fit. The female "ideal" is Nicole Ritchie/Tori Spelling thin (http://cdn.picapp.com/ftp/Images/7/0/6/1/PicImg_Tori_Spelling_looks_60a9.jpg).

I do get what you're saying, though. People are lazy and hate dealing with nuance and specifics, so because you're a guy you're going to be told you're perfectly fine with your current weight. They heard it on teh TMZ, after all, so it must be true.

[LXH]

A special WTF shout out to South Africa today:

Close to one in three South African men admits to having raped. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8107039.stm)

What a strange country. Apartheid barely twenty years ago, then an explosion of human rights, including gay marriage. But also the scariest rape culture of the developed, or near developed, world. And I thought my country had an identity crisis. :smallannoyed:

[Faulty]

But can also be latched onto by your lover in order for them to cause you psychological and emotional abuse. Or by yourself in order to cause self-inflicted trauma.

Sort of a mixed bag, really.

Get a new lover and see a therapist?


Not to sound angry or anything (though, admittedly, a tad sarcastic at least), it's just that that's been bothering me for a while...

I think it's because women are taught that how they look physically is more important than who they are in Western culture. This causes a lot of anxiety, so a lot of women are anxious about their bodies, and this is exploited.


the most recent being the observation that the film industry's leading men are getting larger but are still getting as many leading roles as ever (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/29/earlyshow/leisure/boxoffice/main4977923.shtml?source=RSSattr=Entertainment_497 7923). I'm not so sure Megan, Angelina and the gang could pull that feat off.

In movies, women have to be sexy, but men don't have to be.


A special WTF shout out to South Africa today:

Close to one in three South African men admits to having raped. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8107039.stm)

What a strange country. Apartheid barely twenty years ago, then an explosion of human rights, including gay marriage. But also the scariest rape culture of the developed, or near developed, world. And I thought my country had an identity crisis. :smallannoyed:

This is true:


"I don't think it's cultural per se; I think it has to do with how a lot of us men worldwide were raised. The issues of dominance against women, issues of inequality, are pervasive and you find them throughout the world."

But wow. Just damn. 50% of men? It sounds like F.A.T.A.L..


I have no problem with men as they are conceived today being assailed. I was thinking about this earlier. I think there needs to be a massive boost in estrogen in the world. :smallsigh:

[Coidzor]

I have no problem with men as they are conceived today being assailed. I was thinking about this earlier. I think there needs to be a massive boost in estrogen in the world. :smallsigh:

Well, toyota's Prius does something similar by lowering the testosterone levels of anyone who sees and hears it.


A recent trade union report said a child was being raped in South Africa every three minutes with the vast majority of those cases going unreported.

Talk about dereliction of duty. So much for South Africa as an exception to the rule....

[Faulty]

So much for South Africa as an exception to the rule....

What rule? Africa being chaotic? Is it because there're whites there? :smallannoyed:

[Coidzor]

What rule? Africa being chaotic? Is it because there're whites there? :smallannoyed:

No. More Africa being doomed due to a desert that's eating the continent and people who can't get along whatsoever with their neighbours. I was going for more because it had actually attempted to deal with the racial dichotomy and assumed the trappings of a developed, orderly nation.

[Faulty]

Isn't like Kenya or something actually a pretty nice place?

[Coidzor]

Isn't like Kenya or something actually a pretty nice place?

Occasionally when the people aren't trying to commit small-scale genocide over the presidential election. Think they've got the dubious distinction of having one of the most overcrowded slums in the world. Or the.

[golfmade]

Quite sad really. Have many friends here in Taiwan originally from SA but they say it's too dangerous and whatnot that they'll more than likely never move back.

[Quincunx]

There's a generational statistic for you--every time I read it, the bottom of the fraction has decreased by one. It was 1 in 5 on the Guardian, 1 in 4 on BBC News, now this. Keep it in check, people, the truth is horrifying enough.

More creeping statistics: When people say (correctly) that the icon of glamour Marilyn Monroe was a size 14 and today's average media beauty is much lower (the 'size zero' controversies), they omit that sizes have been graded upwards over the years. Yes, she was curvaceous, but she was a modern-day UK 10 / US 6. We're no longer stunted by starvation and able to fit into the tiny single digits of her day, so they were dropped in favor of bigger sizes. The UK/US size divide also means that a US 0 can be healthy and within the fifth percentile of height and weight.

[LXH]

There's a generational statistic for you--every time I read it, the bottom of the fraction has decreased by one. It was 1 in 5 on the Guardian, 1 in 4 on BBC News, now this. Keep it in check, people, the truth is horrifying enough.

More creeping statistics: When people say (correctly) that the icon of glamour Marilyn Monroe was a size 14 and today's average media beauty is much lower (the 'size zero' controversies), they omit that sizes have been graded upwards over the years. Yes, she was curvaceous, but she was a modern-day UK 10 / US 6. We're no longer stunted by starvation and able to fit into the tiny single digits of her day, so they were dropped in favor of bigger sizes. The UK/US size divide also means that a US 0 can be healthy and within the fifth percentile of height and weight.
Of those surveyed, 28% said they had raped a woman or girl, and 3% said they had raped a man or boy. (http://www.mg.co.za/article/2009-06-18-quarter-of-men-in-south-africa-admit-rape)
Assuming everyone in the latter statistic doesn't overlap into the former, we're looking at between 28+2 and 28+3. 31% is a lot closer to 1/3 than 1/4. And these are only the people who admit to rape.

[Serpentine]

On ideals of feminine beauty: I keep getting told that the media makes big boobs the aesthetic ideal, we're contantly told that small boobs are unattractive, but when you look at the supposed epitomes of feminine beauty, actresses and models, almost all of them (that I've seen) are utterly tiny in the chestal region, or completely flat. I would've thought that this'd indicate that the trend is for smaller breasts to be considered attractive. Where, then, is this claim coming from?

I saw a documentary a while ago, on African (Sudanese, I think) refugees in Australia. The men were basically starving, even while in Australia and free and everything, simply because where they come from men do not cook. It is always, and only, the women. In one house, one woman was cooking for something like half a dozen young men, because that's just what they did. In households not lucky enough to include a female, the men mostly just didn't eat, or only ate take-away food (and generally didn't have much money to buy it with). They couldn't even boil an egg or cook toast.
In this doco, some people were trying to start up a cookery class for some of these refugee men. They only managed to get a few to come, and many of those dropped out along the way. They felt, predictably, like it was just "woman's work", they were embarassed and afraid of ridicule from other men and, most (I think) interestingly, they were afraid of ridicule from other Sudanese women, particularly the older ones. With just cause, as the women party to the experiment did make fun of them a lot, and was a big contributer to some of the men leaving the program.
I dunno, just thought it was interesting and relevant. Cooking being "women's work" is an example of the opression of women (or at least of inequality between the sexes), yet the women themselves were, in this case, making a big contribution to perpetuating that stereotype, and the men who tried to break it were ridiculed by both men and women.

[Ziren]

On ideals of feminine beauty: I keep getting told that the media makes big boobs the aesthetic ideal, we're contantly told that small boobs are unattractive, but when you look at the supposed epitomes of feminine beauty, actresses and models, almost all of them (that I've seen) are utterly tiny in the chestal region, or completely flat. I would've thought that this'd indicate that the trend is for smaller breasts to be considered attractive. Where, then, is this claim coming from?

Talk shows. Reality soaps. MTV. Manga, anime and (mostly) Japanese video games. And probably a lot more I can't think of right now.

[Coidzor]

On ideals of feminine beauty: I keep getting told that the media makes big boobs the aesthetic ideal, we're contantly told that small boobs are unattractive, but when you look at the supposed epitomes of feminine beauty, actresses and models, almost all of them (that I've seen) are utterly tiny in the chestal region, or completely flat. I would've thought that this'd indicate that the trend is for smaller breasts to be considered attractive. Where, then, is this claim coming from?

Well, it's no secret that men like busty women (just look at the job requirements of most of the women who stay in the porn business) and a fair amount of male-directed things make a deal about it, but things directed at women usually ignore this aspect of things, probably because they don't wanna suggest girls get breast implants and they don't want people to accuse them of that sorta thing as they'd get eaten alive (probably) if they were....

I always noticed it as a sort of interesting dichotomy in highschool. The mainstream of girls wanted to be attractive by starving themselves so their waists and butts stayed small (and by extension, everything else), and the mainstream of boys wanted more physically developed girls... y'know, the ones with huge tracts of land. As near as I was ever able to figure it out, it was basically wanting to be attractive by other girl's standards so that they wouldn't be singled out or ridiculed.

So I would say rude things about lesbianism and kowtowing to flat-chested women with even bigger self-image issues, just to be an ass to 'em.

And no one said women are automatically or naturally feminist. I've encountered and forgotten several quotes which were attempts at encapsulating something along the lines of that the worst enemies of feminism have been the women who've been against it. Even in western cultures, older women who are more strongly traditional are some of the most caustic of critics of younger women or society in general. Just look back to the rape discussion where it was discussed that jury selection favored older women so that the jurors themselves would assault the character of the rape victim without the defense even having to lift a finger.

[Ziren]

Well, it's no secret that men like busty women[...]

Not me, and I also know a lot of other guys who aren't. From my experience the likes big breast/likes small breasts-ratio is actually pretty balanced. Quite a bit of the "small breasts"-faction acts like they're into big ones in public because they don't want to be singled out (quite the same as with chubby women).

[ThunderCat]

I saw a documentary a while ago, on African (Sudanese, I think) refugees in Australia. The men were basically starving, even while in Australia and free and everything, simply because where they come from men do not cook. It is always, and only, the women. In one house, one woman was cooking for something like half a dozen young men, because that's just what they did. In households not lucky enough to include a female, the men mostly just didn't eat, or only ate take-away food (and generally didn't have much money to buy it with). They couldn't even boil an egg or cook toast.
In this doco, some people were trying to start up a cookery class for some of these refugee men. They only managed to get a few to come, and many of those dropped out along the way. They felt, predictably, like it was just "woman's work", they were embarassed and afraid of ridicule from other men and, most (I think) interestingly, they were afraid of ridicule from other Sudanese women, particularly the older ones. With just cause, as the women party to the experiment did make fun of them a lot, and was a big contributer to some of the men leaving the program.
I dunno, just thought it was interesting and relevant. Cooking being "women's work" is an example of the opression of women (or at least of inequality between the sexes), yet the women themselves were, in this case, making a big contribution to perpetuating that stereotype, and the men who tried to break it were ridiculed by both men and women.Psychologists often talk about the ambivalent nature of sexism. There are two kinds of sexism against women (or actually, several, but these are the overall categories), hostile sexism, which is all about women being inferior, untrustworthy, unable to compete against men on even terms and prone to needless whining, and benevolent sexism, which is all about women being pure, innocent, caring and necessary to complete men. When testing for sexism, the two scores combined are referred to as ambivalent sexism, which is often what psychologists refer to when talking about sexism.

Usually, there is a correlation between the two in men, so men with high levels of one kind of sexism will also have high levels of the other. A study was even done showing that when predicting men's reactions in regards to rape (rape myth acceptance and victim blame, both more common among sexist individuals), it was enough to look only at their score in benevolent sexism to get an accurate prediction of their reactions. So ironically, the most chivalrous men were the most likely to blame women for getting raped, especially if said women were raped by men close to them, or had acted 'shamelessly' (such as getting raped while having an affair).

In women, it seems to be different. While women in most of the western world tend to have lower scores than men in both categories (though the difference is starkest in the area of hostile sexism, which is markedly higher in men), women's level of benevolent sexism seems to rise in response to men's level of hostile sexism. So in very patriarchal cultures, where men exhibit even greater levels of hostile sexism, the level of benevolent sexism in women skyrockets. This is believed to be a defence mechanism for the women. By focussing on the 'good' aspects of being a woman, and the traditional importance of women, even in the most oppressive cultures, they get to keep a feeling of self-worth in the face of discrimination.

The Sudanese women probably draw a lot of confidence from the fact that they can cook. Never mind that men consider it beneath them, it's still something they need women to do. Men starting to cook threatens this worldview (that of benevolent sexism), which leads to the women trying to keep the men out of 'their' areas. Not to mention that men finally trying their hands at one of the activities women are assumed to be better at, gives the women a chance to assert a kind of dominance similar to that of men. So when the old women ridicule the men who want to cook, what they're actually doing, is throwing back in full force all the hostile sexism men have directed at them. It's completely understandable, but unfortunately, it's also a guaranteed way of delaying, or even preventing, the development if a more egalitarian culture.

[Lamech]

On ideals of feminine beauty: I keep getting told that the media makes big boobs the aesthetic ideal, we're contantly told that small boobs are unattractive, but when you look at the supposed epitomes of feminine beauty, actresses and models, almost all of them (that I've seen) are utterly tiny in the chestal region, or completely flat. I would've thought that this'd indicate that the trend is for smaller breasts to be considered attractive. Where, then, is this claim coming from?
Popping in to say: I have no idea why guys find large-chested woman attractive. I certainly don't, but I know several who do. A smaller size, though not totally flat is much better. The actresses and models are probably chosen for the fact they are thin and that outways large-breasts for most guys. (Total guess on my part.) Alternatively conspiracy by plastic surgeons: Convince woman that they need to have low fat and two large lumps of fat to be attractive. (Impossible for most.) Therefore guarenting endless profit.

P.S. Interesting read here, by people who all seem smarter (or more knowledgeable in this area) than me.

[mercurymaline]

@Serp: Large breasted women do not become "classic" beauties, because large breast do not stand up well to time. (No pun intended.)

The Sudanese women probably feel threatened, having one of the few things they've been allowed to do become open to men as well.

[Faulty]

Psychologists often talk about the ambient nature of sexism. There are two kinds of sexism against women (or actually, several, but these are the overall categories), hostile sexism, which is all about women being inferior, untrustworthy, unable to compete against men on even terms and prone to needless whining, and benevolent sexism, which is all about women being pure, innocent, caring and necessary to complete men. When testing for sexism, the two scores combined are referred to as ambient sexism, which is often what psychologists refer to when talking about sexism.

Usually, there is a correlation between the two in men, so men with high levels of one kind of sexism will also have high levels of the other. A study was even done showing that when predicting men's reactions in regards to rape (rape myth acceptance and victim blame, both more common among sexist individuals), it was enough to look only at their score in benevolent sexism to get an accurate prediction of their reactions. So ironically, the most chivalrous men were the most likely to blame women for getting raped, especially if said women were raped by men close to them, or had acted 'shamelessly' (such as getting raped while having an affair).

In women, it seems to be different. While women in most of the western world tend to have lower scores than men in both categories (though the difference is starkest in the area of hostile sexism, which is markedly higher in men), women's level of benevolent sexism seems to rise in response to men's level of hostile sexism. So in very patriarchal cultures, where men exhibit even greater levels of hostile sexism, the level of benevolent sexism in women skyrockets. This is believed to be a defence mechanism for the women. By focussing on the 'good' aspects of being a woman, and the traditional importance of women, even in the most oppressive cultures, they get to keep a feeling of self-worth in the face of discrimination.

The Sudanese women probably draw a lot of confidence from the fact that they can cook. Never mind that men consider it beneath them, it's still something they need women to do. Men starting to cook threatens this worldview (that of benevolent sexism), which leads to the women trying to keep the men out of 'their' areas. Not to mention that men finally trying their hands at one of the activities women are assumed to be better at, gives the women a chance to assert a kind of dominance similar to that of men. So when the old women ridicule the men who want to cook, what they're actually doing, is throwing back in full force all the hostile sexism men have directed at them. It's completely understandable, but unfortunately, it's also a guaranteed way of delaying, or even preventing, the development if a more egalitarian culture.

Very interesting. Do you have any resources related to this you could point me to?


Popping in to say: I have no idea why guys find large-chested woman attractive. I certainly don't, but I know several who do. A smaller size, though not totally flat is much better. The actresses and models are probably chosen for the fact they are thin and that outways large-breasts for most guys. (Total guess on my part.) Alternatively conspiracy by plastic surgeons: Convince woman that they need to have low fat and two large lumps of fat to be attractive. (Impossible for most.) Therefore guarenting endless profit.

P.S. Interesting read here, by people who all seem smarter (or more knowledgeable in this area) than me.

I think what's attractive depends on the body type of the woman. I think both big and small breasts can be attractive, but I generally don't like really bigs boobs, except (inexplicably, I have no idea why I find her attractive) Gemma Atkinson. Leslie Feist has really small breasts and probably doesn't need to own a bra, but I find her attractive.

[Castaras]

That's one thing I never got...what is exactly so attractive to many males about two balls of fat in the chest region on a female specimen? :smallconfused:

[Faulty]

That's one thing I never got...what is exactly so attractive to many males about two balls of fat in the chest region on a female specimen? :smallconfused:

We're genetically predisposed to liking them. And they're fun to squeeze.

[Castaras]

We're genetically predisposed to liking them. And they're fun to squeeze.

Fair enough. Now I know. :smalltongue:

[averagejoe]

I saw a documentary a while ago, on African (Sudanese, I think) refugees in Australia. The men were basically starving, even while in Australia and free and everything, simply because where they come from men do not cook. It is always, and only, the women. In one house, one woman was cooking for something like half a dozen young men, because that's just what they did. In households not lucky enough to include a female, the men mostly just didn't eat, or only ate take-away food (and generally didn't have much money to buy it with). They couldn't even boil an egg or cook toast.
In this doco, some people were trying to start up a cookery class for some of these refugee men. They only managed to get a few to come, and many of those dropped out along the way. They felt, predictably, like it was just "woman's work", they were embarassed and afraid of ridicule from other men and, most (I think) interestingly, they were afraid of ridicule from other Sudanese women, particularly the older ones. With just cause, as the women party to the experiment did make fun of them a lot, and was a big contributer to some of the men leaving the program.
I dunno, just thought it was interesting and relevant. Cooking being "women's work" is an example of the opression of women (or at least of inequality between the sexes), yet the women themselves were, in this case, making a big contribution to perpetuating that stereotype, and the men who tried to break it were ridiculed by both men and women.

I remember an anthropology class I took, and in it we discussed female genital mutilation in some countries, from the point of view of the kind of feminist idea vs. being culturally relativistic (I believe this is the right term, but this was nearly five years ago.) One of the points brought up is that, even if such a thing were outlawed, enforcement would be difficult because in most cases studied it was the women who would be pushing much harder for it. While some men would push for it, they were much more neutral as a group.


Usually, there is a correlation between the two in men, so men with high levels of one kind of sexism will also have high levels of the other. A study was even done showing that when predicting men's reactions in regards to rape (rape myth acceptance and victim blame, both more common among sexist individuals), it was enough to look only at their score in benevolent sexism to get an accurate prediction of their reactions. So ironically, the most chivalrous men were the most likely to blame women for getting raped, especially if said women were raped by men close to them, or had acted 'shamelessly' (such as getting raped while having an affair).

Interesting. On the subject of chivalry, these days it mostly seems to be practiced by men so they can say things like, "Everyone tears chivalry down, but I do it anyways because I'm such an awesome guy." It largely seems to turn men into those helpful people whose help is not needed or wanted, but try to point this out to them and they get all, "Well, I'm just trying to do something nice," as an excuse to do pretty much whatever.


The Sudanese women probably draw a lot of confidence from the fact that they can cook. Never mind that men consider it beneath them, it's still something they need women to do. Men starting to cook threatens this worldview (that of benevolent sexism), which leads to the women trying to keep the men out of 'their' areas. Not to mention that men finally trying their hands at one of the activities women are assumed to be better at, gives the women a chance to assert a kind of dominance similar to that of men. So when the old women ridicule the men who want to cook, what they're actually doing, is throwing back in full force all the hostile sexism men have directed at them. It's completely understandable, but unfortunately, it's also a guaranteed way of delaying, or even preventing, the development if a more egalitarian culture.

In the same anthropology class I mentioned above, there was an essay we read on the practice of wearing burkas in some countries. It wasn't a "for" or "against" essay; in fact, a lot was about the writer's own conflicts on the issue, feeling that she had to choose between feminism and culture. One of the points she brought up, however, is that in one country where wearing burkas was outlawed, in many cases women lost power. For example, they became dependent on men to get places because they didn't want to be seen in public (imagine if clothes for women was outlawed here; decency is a social construct) and so they had to invent various ways to hide themselves. It also gave them somewhat more subtle powers over men; for example, a woman could remove her burka to shame her husband.

[Ichneumon]

I can't understand why people tragically wants to always look like how they are not.

[ThunderCat]

Very interesting. Do you have any resources related to this you could point me to?http://www.understandingprejudice.org/asi/faq.htm

It's pretty easy to find more with a google search, or look in a psychology textbook dealing with prejudices. Also, I seem to have confused the English words 'ambient' and 'ambivalent' (I do know the difference, but I was in a hurry), I'll correct it now.

[Castaras]

(imagine if clothes for women was outlawed here; decency is a social construct)

And if you can't imagine that, The Ferengi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferengi) are a race from Star Trek where women are forbidden to wear clothing. One of the reasons why they were such a stupid race...

[Set]

I always noticed it as a sort of interesting dichotomy in highschool. The mainstream of girls wanted to be attractive by starving themselves so their waists and butts stayed small (and by extension, everything else), and the mainstream of boys wanted more physically developed girls... y'know, the ones with huge tracts of land. As near as I was ever able to figure it out, it was basically wanting to be attractive by other girl's standards so that they wouldn't be singled out or ridiculed.

Social groups tend to reinforce who is 'in' and who is to be excluded by ruthlessly enforcing shared behaviors, styles of dress, etc. That doesn't just apply to high school girls, but can also be seen in boys, who aren't wearing their baggy pants to attract girls.

Allow people to wear whatever they want, and they'll still wear a 'uniform' that brands them as surely as a plaid skirt, letterman jacket or orange prison jumpsuit. Anything to not be kicked out of the herd. If the style is to have your tummy roll and butt-crack hanging out and a dead badger on your head, that's what people will do.

[THAC0]

The actresses and models are probably chosen for the fact they are thin and that outways large-breasts for most guys. (Total guess on my part.)

I suspect that excessive thinness affects breast size to some extent. Additionally, small breasts are much easier to fit when it comes to clothing, so this is particularly important for models.

[Starshade]

And if you can't imagine that, The Ferengi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferengi) are a race from Star Trek where women are forbidden to wear clothing. One of the reasons why they were such a stupid race...

They was once, back in 2. generation of The Next Generation (early in series, first ferengi episodes), they was supposed to be the main antagonists. That's why they there had spaceships equal to the biggest federation ships.

Then later, they was found to be too silly to be used as the big enemy, so they made Borgs. And ferengi characters, turned to comical parodies. Supposedly of our own bad sides. The name ferengi is from persian farangi, foreginer. Us.
The pun is, ferengi are, us.Or just a clowny, bad parody on our own cultural wises, habits, greed, marked's immense failure to regulate our world, and prejudices.

[DamnedIrishman]

I suspect that excessive thinness affects breast size to some extent. Additionally, small breasts are much easier to fit when it comes to clothing, so this is particularly important for models.

Models aren't supposed to be attractive. They're supposed to resemble clotheshangers.
You're not even supposed to notice them, just the clothes they are wearing.

Admittedly this applies more to high fashion catwalk models, as advertising models are supposed to be attractive so you think that by buying things you'll automagically become pretty too.

[Coidzor]

Models aren't supposed to be attractive. They're supposed to resemble clotheshangers.
You're not even supposed to notice them, just the clothes they are wearing.

Admittedly this applies more to high fashion catwalk models, as advertising models are supposed to be attractive so you think that by buying things you'll automagically become pretty too.

Indeed, made one of my exes very paranoid about what kind people meant when people told her she should be a model....

[GoC]

Cooking being "women's work" is an example of the opression of women (or at least of inequality between the sexes)
No. Cooking being "women's work" is an example of oppression of men. Insert-any-position-of-power being "men's work" is an example of oppression of women.

[Coidzor]

No. Cooking being "women's work" is an example of oppression of men. Insert-any-position-of-power being "men's work" is an example of oppression of women.

Well, traditionally it's oppression of women as a form of denigrating them and relegating them to a caged sphere.

In the example given, it's oppression of women which the women seem to be enjoying turning against the men who are too bound up by machismo to keep from oppressing themselves.

It's unfortunate they can't adapt to the more liberated values of their new land, but, y'know, they'll either figure out some way to survive or starve to death. *shrug*

[Serpentine]

The Sudanese women probably draw a lot of confidence from the fact that they can cook. Never mind that men consider it beneath them, it's still something they need women to do. Men starting to cook threatens this worldview (that of benevolent sexism), which leads to the women trying to keep the men out of 'their' areas. Not to mention that men finally trying their hands at one of the activities women are assumed to be better at, gives the women a chance to assert a kind of dominance similar to that of men. So when the old women ridicule the men who want to cook, what they're actually doing, is throwing back in full force all the hostile sexism men have directed at them. It's completely understandable, but unfortunately, it's also a guaranteed way of delaying, or even preventing, the development if a more egalitarian culture.That makes sense.

And no one said women are automatically or naturally feminist. I've encountered and forgotten several quotes which were attempts at encapsulating something along the lines of that the worst enemies of feminism have been the women who've been against it.'strue. It's come up a few times in these old newspapers I'm repairing, women speaking out against sufferage and the like.

Popping in to say: I have no idea why guys find large-chested woman attractive. I certainly don't, but I know several who do. A smaller size, though not totally flat is much better.:smallfrown:
D-cup <.<

GoC: I did include "or at least of inequality". I don't think a blanket "no" was really necessary.

[Coidzor]

Say... Do you often run into people thinking you're stupid or otherwise trying to look down on you for that, Serps?

[THAC0]

Say... Do you often run into people thinking you're stupid or otherwise trying to look down on you for that, Serps?

I'm not serp, but I get lots of stares. I haven't gotten many comments, but then I'm more oblivious to that kind of stuff. Honestly, the older I get the more self conscious about it I get. Seriously considering reduction in the future.

[Serpentine]

Um... Not that I've noticed, but I do have a Wisdom of 6. Well, except for the people who so far as I can tell do it to everyone. I also hardly ever notice anyone "looking", except for this one guy who just had his eyes utterly stuck to them, head down an' all.
I know one girl who got a reduction, and they're still at least as big as mine. She told me a horrifying story about Why You Shouldn't Lift Heavy Things After The Surgery: They burst open :eek:

[DamnedIrishman]

Don't frown. D-cup, in my experience, is the average man's perfect size. With similar anecdotal evidence, the women I've met seem to judge the perfect size as around a C-cup.

Shape is far more important than size anyway.

[GoC]

GoC: I did include "or at least of inequality". I don't think a blanket "no" was really necessary.

Sorry. Need to learn to read... >_>

[Mauve Shirt]

:smallfrown:
D-cup <.<

:smallfrown::smallfrown::smallfrown:
DDD-cup


Don't frown. D-cup, in my experience, is the average man's perfect size. With similar anecdotal evidence, the women I've met seem to judge the perfect size as around a C-cup.
C-cup is the perfect size. I used to be a C.

[SDF]

Don't frown. D-cup,

I'm sorry, but I read the comma wrong and though you called her D-cup. I've been laughing pretty hard at my error. :smalltongue:

[DamnedIrishman]

I'm sorry, but I read the comma wrong and though you called her D-cup. I've been laughing pretty hard at my error. :smalltongue:

Now that's a way to look like a sexist pig: refer to all women by their breast size.

I can see it catching on. And much slapping of the face and groin-kicking following shortly after.

"Hey, 36C, what are you doing la...YEAARGH!"

[Coidzor]

@^: and best of all, it fits in where one would say buttercup in a rhyme scheme.

:smallfrown::smallfrown::smallfrown:
DDD-cup

C-cup is the perfect size. I used to be a C.

What? :smallconfused: I didn't think that was a size....

... ... Also, you're pretty good at hiding it in the photos you've shared. So, kudos on that.

[THAC0]

@^: and best of all, it fits in where one would say buttercup in a rhyme scheme.


What? :smallconfused: I didn't think that was a size....

... ... Also, you're pretty good at hiding it in the photos you've shared. So, kudos on that.

I go between three and four of those letters depending on band size. People are frequently surprised - I guess they expect something monstrous! lol.

[mercurymaline]

@^: and best of all, it fits in where one would say buttercup in a rhyme scheme.


What? :smallconfused: I didn't think that was a size....

... ... Also, you're pretty good at hiding it in the photos you've shared. So, kudos on that.

Wait, whaddaya mean you didn't think that was a size? They go A-F and a number.

[Nameless]

Wait, whaddaya mean you didn't think that was a size? They go A-F and a number.

I thought it was DD, then goes to E. :smallconfused:
Then again, what do I know. :smalltongue:

[mercurymaline]

I thought it was DD, then goes to E. :smallconfused:
Then again, what do I know. :smalltongue:

I thought it went to DDD, then E, EE, EEE, all the way to FFF.

[Coidzor]

I thought it went to DDD, then E, EE, EEE, all the way to FFF.

I think it varies, since I once had to help one of my ex-girlfriends learn about the wonderful world of cup-sizes. I remember that sometimes E or F have doubles as well, but after that it just progresses by letter for those who are guaranteed all kinds of unpleasant back pain/suffocation issues.

[DamnedIrishman]

From Feminism to Just Talking About Boobs.

It's a metaphor for the period between 1965 and the modern day.

[THAC0]

DDD in USA is the same as E in Europe. And DDDD is equivalent to F.

[Mauve Shirt]

Whatever, my band says DDD on it.

As for not looking it, I'm too overweight to look it. And I wear baggy clothing to cover up my overweightness.

THIS is girl thread nonsense, isn't it? Not really about gender equality at all.

[Syka]

What I love is the cat calls I used to get up at school. :smallannoyed: The worst part is my boyfriend and other guys I know (minus a TA I knew who I was able to hash out part of the problem being not knowing if the cat caller will become possibly violent) couldn't quite understand why it bugged me so much, since there isn't really anything comparable for a guy to experience. They didn't see why it would be anything other than a compliment.

He's never had to worry someone might think he's not smart because he looks good. Or, conversely, getting promotions or whatever because of the looks. He's never had to worry if those guys leaning out the window calling and oogling are just commenting or if they'd take it to another level if he makes a wrong comment or ignores them. He's never had someone try to grope him unwantedly or make a very illegal and very skeezy proposition to him.

It's why I'm glad I live back home- I've never been cat called here. There are creepy guys at work occasionally, but never anything I need to worry about.

The way I see it, if I was dressed up for a night out I can understand getting cat called since dressing up generally means you are looking for attention. In jeans and a turtle neck or sweats when going to class or exercising? It makes you feel this >< big. I work damn hard to be known for my intellect and personality and to have someone want to "get it on" with you because you "are sexy" while they are merely driving past is demeaning. It's one thing to have my boyfriend say I'm hot, because he's referring to the whole package. I loathe when someone who doesn't know me does it.

So have I been treated differently by society?

Yup.


On boobs- C/D here. It blows for finding good sports bras (Champion ftw). I'm happy with them though because it's proportional. People don't realize how big they are until they look closer (figuratively) because of that (my sewing teacher didn't believe I had a 40 inch bust until she measured). Having a small waist affects that too. >>

[Coidzor]

^:Wait... :smallconfused: Small waist... 40 inch bust... frequent cat-calls... Are you the person all these women keep unfairly comparing themselves to?:smalltongue:

Indeed. I honestly don't know why I'm being catcalled since I'm a guy. I've been every so often since high school and it still is a bit disturbing and... really weird.

I can't even just mentally file it under "something homosexual that I will never understand" either, since I'm not attractive to other men and there's not exactly a whole lot of tolerance/numbers in the area... I think every gay man I've known has called me ugly to my face too.

So yeah, cat-calling is weird. I don't even understand it when it's done to women, though I can understand talking about a woman's looks amongst the boys, since I've done that with a few of my guy friends in the context of, "who's the hottest person we collectively actually know and why."

[Serpentine]

I'd like to be a C-cup :smallsigh: Nearly all the pretty bras don't come any larger :smallannoyed: A friend of mine is a 10DD or E or something like that, much smaller band but larger cups than me. I always saw them at the shops and wondered what on earth a woman with that size would look like. Apparently it's not horrific...
I'd like a bra made out of hands. Hands are comfy. Do you think any bra-designer has had someone stand behind them and hold their breasts, then strived to get that exact hold, shape and comfort?

[Coidzor]

I'd like to be a C-cup :smallsigh: Nearly all the pretty bras don't come any larger :smallannoyed: A friend of mine is a 10DD or E or something like that, much smaller band but larger cups than me. I always saw them at the shops and wondered what on earth a woman with that size would look like. Apparently it's not horrific...
I'd like a bra made out of hands. Hands are comfy. Do you think any bra-designer has had someone stand behind them and hold their breasts, then strived to get that exact hold, shape and comfort?

This reminds me of a certain trope in regards to female necromancers....:smalleek:

[Quincunx]

Such a bra exists. The hands are male.

[Nameless]

DDD in USA is the same as E in Europe. And DDDD is equivalent to F.

Ah, that makes sense. :smalltongue:

[Castaras]

What I love is the cat calls I used to get up at school. :smallannoyed: The worst part is my boyfriend and other guys I know (minus a TA I knew who I was able to hash out part of the problem being not knowing if the cat caller will become possibly violent) couldn't quite understand why it bugged me so much, since there isn't really anything comparable for a guy to experience. They didn't see why it would be anything other than a compliment.

It's why I'm glad I live back home- I've never been cat called here. There are creepy guys at work occasionally, but never anything I need to worry about.

The way I see it, if I was dressed up for a night out I can understand getting cat called since dressing up generally means you are looking for attention. In jeans and a turtle neck or sweats when going to class or exercising? It makes you feel this >< big. I work damn hard to be known for my intellect and personality and to have someone want to "get it on" with you because you "are sexy" while they are merely driving past is demeaning. It's one thing to have my boyfriend say I'm hot, because he's referring to the whole package. I loathe when someone who doesn't know me does it.


QFT. Although for me, any catcalls are guys trying to make fun of me. :smallannoyed: No, I know I'm not a "Hottie". No way would I want to be.:smallmad:

[Quincunx]

The catcall is contemptuous and socially acceptable, and yelling back something of equal contempt* both takes too long and is sufficiently socially unacceptable not to repeat on this board. You can't rely on one of your spiritual sisters to be walking near the guys when they cat it and being willing to punch them in the side of the head, although it's satisfying when the confluence is good.

*Phrases learned from men in their man-only chats.
Bad: Still contemptuous of women. Penis-based.
Good: Guaranteed to be insulting to men.

[Kaelaroth]

I know one girl who got a reduction, and they're still at least as big as mine. She told me a horrifying story about Why You Shouldn't Lift Heavy Things After The Surgery: They burst open :eek:

OK, that's going right up there in the icky list along with most of the non-drug related treatments for very bad cases of priapism.

[Blayze]

Indeed. I honestly don't know why I'm being catcalled since I'm a guy. I've been every so often since high school and it still is a bit disturbing and... really weird.

At least you people get "positive" attention. All I get are insults hurled from passing cars and loitering chavs, nothing that could ever be attributed to physical attractiveness. If I happened to be female, my hair colour would probably be seen as attractive.

[Syka]

The catcall is contemptuous and socially acceptable, and yelling back something of equal contempt* both takes too long and is sufficiently socially unacceptable not to repeat on this board. You can't rely on one of your spiritual sisters to be walking near the guys when they cat it and being willing to punch them in the side of the head, although it's satisfying when the confluence is good.

*Phrases learned from men in their man-only chats.
Bad: Still contemptuous of women. Penis-based.
Good: Guaranteed to be insulting to men.

Another problem being when you are alone, or essentially alone on a street, and the car is full of guys...Mace won't really stand up to them enough to make hurling back an insult any sort of safe reaction. I usually tried to ignore them, but even that risks potential for a negative reaction from them.

[Faulty]

I mentioned a cat call I witnessed early in the thread. The guys were in a topless convertable and I so wish I had an open carton of soy milk, because I would have ****ing doused them in a few litres of organic soy fury.

[Mauve Shirt]

I My hot friends get catcalled all the time on the F-burg streets at night. We ignore it.

[Serpentine]

I don't think I've ever been catcalled (wait, is this the same as wolf-whistling?) <.< If I was, I wouldn't know whether they were serious or making fun of me v.v

[Ichneumon]

You know... I feel almost ashamed I don't get catcalled.

[DamnedIrishman]

You know... I feel almost ashamed I don't get catcalled.

Which is worse: being objectified, or not being objectified when others around you are?

[Faulty]

The opening of this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvjDr8KKtsE)made me think of this thread, on a vaguely related and NSFW yet oddly humorous note.

[Ichneumon]

Which is worse: being objectified, or not being objectified when others around you are?

Which is worse: being objectified or apparently being found unworthy to objecty?

EDIT: Just to be clear, I think it is terrible you all get treated as such, I'm just telling you how I personally experience this.

[Mightymosy]

Which is worse: being objectified, or not being objectified when others around you are?

I'd say it depends about how far your definition of "being objectified" goes.

If that means that one is physically abused against their will, then that is pretty much a very bad thing, and I'd always prefer not being objectified.

As far as I've read, it was about being "cat called", without being touched at all.

And in this context, feeling lack of attention by the opposite gender (not being objectified) feels so bad I can hardly imagine people prefer that option.

Getting too much attention can be annoying, even I can see that.
Only for as long as you realize that being forced to have a lot of possible "options" beats having none of them at all...

Keep in mind that being a guy - who doesn't usually have to fear being physically threatened by females - might weigh in for this perspective.

[Coidzor]

I don't think I've ever been catcalled (wait, is this the same as wolf-whistling?) <.< If I was, I wouldn't know whether they were serious or making fun of me v.v

I was counting wolf-whistling, random whooping, and vaguely sexual comments that are fired off by a vehicle moving fast enough that I can't make out what they're saying and I and maybe 1-2 other guys are the only people on the street when I mentioned being cat-called.


My understanding: As far as being objectified versus not being objectified, most people prefer limited objectification (since I think we've reached the point where anyone expressing physical attraction is a form of metaphysical objectification), the kind that don't come with implied sexual threats/intimidation ala cat-calling. Basically, being recognized and receiving attention but not receiving the negative types of attention or at least receiving much less of that/much more rarely.

Edit~!:
These two posts reminded me of you, Thread...

Is it just me, or is the apparently generic Evony free online whatsit trying to sell itself entirely on sex appeal?

Every single goddamn banner ad shows some bored-looking woman with massive cleavage. For a while, it was one woman with a sword at her throat, saying, "Save the queen!" After a while, it was two women, and said, "Save your lover!"

...

The problem with being a male in modern society is that you are constantly having your intelligence insulted.

That doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that the sex appeal of the ads is essentially missing from the game. It's false advertising.

[Syka]

There is a difference in the following situations:

A guy at the bus stop approaches me: I just wanted to let you know you are beautiful.

A guy leaning out of a car driving past with 1+ other guy in the car yells: Hey sexy! Hey! Ur* hot!

(That is the only way to truly convey in writing how it sounded, lol.)

Both are technically objectification. The difference is potential threat of violence and an element of respect. In the first example, the speaker is admiring and allowing a conversation to start, nor is there the worry that you may be ganged up on if you look at them wrong. One guy is way easier to fend off than 2+.

I have had both happen and the former is flattering, the latter just makes me feel...like crap.

And for the record, I hate the "well, at least you GET attention". I didn't used to get much attention, and I'd MUCH rather go back to that lack of attention than have the (what I perceive to be) negative attention. I want to be recognized and respected for my intellect, not solely my physical features.

[Raharu]

Sure. As a male I'm pretty goddamn boring and generic. If I did all the things I do now as a woman, people would say I were crazy or living on the edge or whatever. A woman that likes DnD and motorcycles and smokes? Crazy.

A guy who does "girly" things is looked at the same way. Straighten your hair, avoid getting dirty and drink daiquiris? No way you're normal.

So yeah, there's a double standard.


Then again, It only ever affected me as a principle (well, except when I'm feeling particularly grubby for attention and think to myself that it would be easier as a girl), and after awhile I kind of lost the heart required to hold a grudge against society; especially for something that wasn't necessarily oppressing me. I don't even like daiquiris.

If you like something, do it, and damn what other people are going to say. I think that's an attitude that will get a lot more done than complaining about it will.

[Coidzor]

@Syka: That's... pretty much what I was trying to go for there in my conception.

Kinda weird how it just sort of started happening in relatively recent memory, since you're about 25-ish now.... Older than I am at any rate.

:smallconfused:...I wonder when catcalling generally starts... Sometime after around 15-16 is my guess, since before then even more developed girls clearly look too young to interact with in any way except by their peers who are... still stupid and awkard enough that they don't really communicate things to the opposite sex...generally...

[Syka]

Cat calls didn't start until 19 or so for me, when I moved off to school. It's not tied to be dressing more feminine, because that was before I moved to school plus the cat calls have sinced ceased. It's tied to location it seems (college town versus small family/retiree based community).

I think it's also directly proportional to number of young men driving around in groups. Cat calls seem to be limited to groups of guys (confirmed by other friends and even my TA), and you don't get that much in my area.

ETA: And I'm freshly (as of a month ago) 22. ;)

[Hell Puppi]

I've been catcalled, had a beer thrown at me and had someone yell "Fire------!" when I had red hair.

I haven't had any real come-on's in recent history. :smallconfused:
This may be due to, as you said, location. Most of the people around here are older couples. (or I may be past my prime catcalling years)

Edit: I also like DnD, motorcycles, old cars, used to smoke and have now gone back to just enjoying a good cigar.:smalltongue:

[Serpentine]

A woman that likes DnD and motorcycles and smokes? Crazy.I like D&D and motorcycles >.>

[Pyrian]

A woman that likes DnD and motorcycles and smokes? Crazy.I like D&D and motorcycles >.>...And we all think you're crazy, so it fits! :smallwink: Love ya', babe!

[Serpentine]

Touche'!
Heheh, "tooshie".

[The Extinguisher]

I was counting wolf-whistling, random whooping, and vaguely sexual comments that are fired off by a vehicle moving fast enough that I can't make out what they're saying and I and maybe 1-2 other guys are the only people on the street when I mentioned being cat-called.


Really? I've been cat-called a lot then. Seriously, I can't even count the times I'm walking down the street and someone yells something at me from a car.

Weird.

[ThunderCat]

I'd say it depends about how far your definition of "being objectified" goes.

If that means that one is physically abused against their will, then that is pretty much a very bad thing, and I'd always prefer not being objectified.

As far as I've read, it was about being "cat called", without being touched at all.

And in this context, feeling lack of attention by the opposite gender (not being objectified) feels so bad I can hardly imagine people prefer that option.<snip>Quincunx got it right. Catcalls are basically contemptuous, as well as threatening. It's somewhat similar to the way gang rapes were described as a form of male bonding in South Africa in the article that was posted not long ago. Or when drunken teenagers beat up homeless people, and in a few cases, even urinates on them. It's a way for people to bond around their contempt for other kinds of people, similar to many forms of bullying. Of course rape is a lot worse than mere catcalls, but the two do share some characteristics. In both cases, it is done by groups of men (I've never heard or read about lone men making catcalls) to women, for the benefit of the other men, who will often jeer and laugh in response. In both cases, the men have already been informed that many women don't like it, but the men deliberately choose to either not believe it, or to not respect it :smallfrown: And in both cases, it's a way to confirm and cement women's role as objects for men's pleasure, with or without consent, which has historically been one of the most common ways of oppressing women.

It's not about the women, it's about the men, and the reason it's done more to women who're perceived to be sexual (pretty women, and large breasted women of all kinds) has nothing to do with the men wishing to initiate sexual contact (people who want others to respond talk to them, they don't shout at them and drive away), and everything to do with these women being convenient targets. It's done partly because the contempt is sexual in nature, partly because such women are often considered out of reach for the men, and partly because of how stereotypical sexually attractive women occupy a double position in our culture, being thought of as desirable and popular, but also often looked down on and ridiculed as stupid and promiscuous, which makes them both vulnerable and fun to put down.

The difficulty for women in regards to sex, isn't just the threatening aspects, though they're certainly real enough, but also the lack of respect (which is tied to the threat). When a guy and a girl have a one night stand, he's often considered the conqueror, while she risks losing respect, despite the fact that they participated in the exact same activity :smallannoyed: The vast majority of insults men hurl at women are sexual in nature, and it's a common perception (and not always entirely incorrect) that men don't respect women they have sex with. Matters only get worse when one think about how many of the same type of men who use sexual insults against women, also prefer women who look like they fit the insults. For instance, the vast majority of the guys who'll use words like whore to insult women, are also consumers of porn, or comics, or RPG books, or videogames, or other material where the female characters frequently look a lot like stereotypical prostitutes. It's like they're saying “I prefer it when women are portrayed in a way that makes me feel like I don't have to respect them”, which is downright scary :smalleek:

This makes sexuality a double edged sword for women, and makes questions such as “would you rather be a sexual object than not being a sexual object” meaningless. It's a false dilemma, asking them to choose between two kinds of evil, and then pretend they 'were asking for it' when they aren't happy (i.e. if women don't want to get raped, they need to stop dressing revealingly, and if women don't want men to ignore them, they need to dress more revealingly :smallmad:). Most people would rather have a medium to moderately high degree of sexual attention directed at them, without getting severely objectified. And this is entirely possible. The guys who're thought of as sexual conquerors aren't usually assumed to be thought of as less of a person by the girls they have sex with, and as Syka mentioned, there's usually a world of difference between catcalls, and guys calling you beautiful to your face.

[axarts]

Lots of smart sounding stuffs.

It's not about the women, it's about the men, and the reason it's done more to women who're perceived to be sexual (pretty women, and large breasted women of all kinds) has nothing to do with the men wishing to initiate sexual contact (people who want others to respond talk to them, they don't shout at them and drive away), and everything to do with these women being convenient targets. It's done partly because the contempt is sexual in nature, partly because such women are often considered out of reach for the men, and partly because of how stereotypical sexually attractive women occupy a double position in our culture, being thought of as desirable and popular, but also often looked down on and ridiculed as stupid and promiscuous, which makes them both vulnerable and fun to put down.

More stuffs.


So... does that mean when women catcall me, it's because they view me with contemptuous sexuality?
Cause that's confusing...
to me anyways.
:smallconfused:

Edit:
@V Maybe it's the asterisks, but I can't tell if that's a yes or a no.

And here I was, thinking I might be popular and desirable.
:smallcool:

[Coidzor]

So... does that mean when women catcall me, it's because they view me with contemptuous sexuality?
Cause that's confusing...
to me anyways.
:smallconfused:

Well if they're catcalling you, they are doing it to be ***** and get a laugh out of it. So...

[Ziren]

[...]Matters only get worse when one think about how many of the same type of men who use sexual insults against women, also prefer women who look like they fit the insults. For instance, the vast majority of the guys who'll use words like whore to insult women, are also consumers of porn, or comics, or RPG books, or videogames, or other material where the female characters frequently look a lot like stereotypical prostitutes. It's like they're saying “I prefer it when women are portrayed in a way that makes me feel like I don't have to respect them”, which is downright scary :smalleek:[...]


I think that has more to do with the fact, that there's almost no medium left (save for books perhaps) that doesn't often feature that kind of woman. Though I admit that stripperific depiction is almost always linked bad or at least mediocre quality.

[Quincunx]

Sadly yes, if catcalls and the like are conscious action, meant to be projected to all the people in the area instead of the target, and one-way communication, there'll always be some contempt in it. The unconscious behaviors (straying eyes and stammering, from either gender) are more forgivable in that light--no consciousness, no jockeying for social position, less chance of contempt. Sure, it's awkward for both parties, and you've got to be watchful that the gawker is not truly maladjusted*, but the awkwardness means that polite consciousness is fighting the unconscious rudeness.

*Maladjusted, in this case, meaning 'dangerous to pursue a relationship with', a la the "red flag list" of a few pages back. The fidgeting of a full-bore Asperger's child is one (yellow) flag; the lack of gloss to the eyes of the predator who'll kill you for tidiness' sake is a spectrum apart as a black flag.

[EDIT: I haven't said this yet. I should.

Thinking about these issues 24/7 will curdle you. Better to think it through over a limited period, then take the conclusions and shelve the debate, then return to it every so often in discussions like this thread to be sure your conclusions are still up-to-date.]

[axarts]

I think that has more to do with the fact, that there's almost no medium left (save for books perhaps) that doesn't often feature that kind of woman. Though I admit that stripperific depiction is almost always linked bad or at least mediocre quality.

I think characters of such description in general are a staple of products approaching mediocre quality.
Maybe because such things are made by vacuous mediocre people, for vacuous mediocre people.

And as for books as the safe haven of the subtle, have you seen the "romance" novellas that line the bookstore walls these days?

More man-nipple than a tri-county sporting arena shower.

[Ziren]

And as for books as the safe haven of the subtle, have you seen the "romance" novellas that line the bookstore walls these days?

More man-nipple than a tri-county sporting arena shower.

That's justifiable because in the romance genre sex is a center theme. I don't see anything wrong in using sex to sell a product that is about sex. I can't talk about the quality of these books, but I would guess that

In videogames, music, comics etc. the sexual advertising/content is usually just there to distract from the fact, that the products main selling point isn't all that good.

[ThunderCat]

So... does that mean when women catcall me, it's because they view me with contemptuous sexuality?
Cause that's confusing...
to me anyways.
:smallconfused:

Edit:
@V Maybe it's the asterisks, but I can't tell if that's a yes or a no.

And here I was, thinking I might be popular and desirable.
:smallcool:Let me try a different analogy then. Suppose you're really hungry, and you choose to eat a banana because bananas are quick to eat, and very filling. But if there wasn't any bananas, you'd still eat something, right? So the banana wasn't the reason for you eating, your own hunger was, and the banana was just means to an end. In the same way, if all breasts size D+ were suddenly reduced to C-cups, it wouldn't cause catcalls to stop, because the need for catcalling (with the purpose of showing off, gaining status, and possibly bond with other men), or at least the desire to catcall, would still be there, the men would just choose other targets than women with large breasts.

It's the same with bullying – I've experienced quite a few students changing class because they were bullied, but it never caused the bullying to stop in their old class, because bullying is about the bullies, not the victims, and when one victim disappeared, the bullies just found another. Some people might be more appealing targets for bullying (and catcalls), but it's never done because, or for the benefit, of the victim.

[axarts]

Let me try a different analogy then. Suppose you're really hungry, and you choose to eat a banana because bananas are quick to eat, and very filling. But if there wasn't any bananas, you'd still eat something, right? So the banana wasn't the reason for you eating, your own hunger was, and the banana was just means to an end. In the same way, if all breasts size D+ were suddenly reduced to C-cups, it wouldn't cause catcalls to stop, because the need for catcalling (with the purpose of showing off, gaining status, and possibly bond with other men), or at least the desire to catcall, would still be there, the men would just choose other targets than women with large breasts.

It's the same with bullying – I've experienced quite a few students changing class because they were bullied, but it never caused the bullying to stop in their old class, because bullying is about the bullies, not the victims, and when one victim disappeared, the bullies just found another. Some people might be more appealing targets for bullying (and catcalls), but it's never done because, or for the benefit, of the victim.

Isn't the average bust size of women a 34B?
At least, I think it is in the U.S.

As well, if all breasts were smaller than they are now, men wouldn't really need to change directions in their lustful outpourings, since, you know...
some women would still have larger breasts than others.

That's beside the point though.

I wasn't suggesting the victim of anything is in any way to blame for what's done to them.

What I was trying to call into question was if the reverse of the psychological evaluation is true, since I myself really have been "catcalled" by women. (and men for that matter)

What you were saying seemed, to me at least, to exclude the possibility that women objectify men. (Or, that the reasons behind objectification are different?)

So... why do women catcall men? :smallconfused:

(Also, is it bad that my first thought was 'big breasts bully bananas'?)

[ThunderCat]

I think that has more to do with the fact, that there's almost no medium left (save for books perhaps) that doesn't often feature that kind of woman. Though I admit that stripperific depiction is almost always linked bad or at least mediocre quality.But isn't it that way because some people like it? I've heard a lot of guys express enthusiasm for half naked girls. And while I can recognise the link to mediocrity, as far as I can tell, it also has a lot to do with whom the product is marketed towards. Women's magazines are often about sex and relationships, and therefore tend to have attractive women on the cover, but despite how I feel they sometimes cross the line between “Happy, sexy, stylish, and confident woman” and “sex kitten looking for work” at least they have that line to cross.

Men's magazines tend feature women who look like they're in the sex industry (and frequently are), and superhero comics, which are often marketed exclusively to guys, take this even further, with women in bathing suits and high heels, whose most common superpower is the ability to mysteriously have their ass face the viewer a disproportionate amount of time, combined with super flexible spines, which allows them to perform their signature butt-struts while still keeping their boobs in full view.

[Ziren]

But isn't it that way because some people like it? I've heard a lot of guys express enthusiasm for half naked girls. And while I can recognise the link to mediocrity, as far as I can tell, it also has a lot to do with whom the product is marketed towards. Women's magazines are often about sex and relationships, and therefore tend to have attractive women on the cover, but despite how I feel they sometimes cross the line between “Happy, sexy, stylish, and confident woman” and “sex kitten looking for work” at least they have that line to cross.

Men's magazines tend feature women who look like they're in the sex industry (and frequently are), and superhero comics, which are often marketed exclusively to guys, take this even further, with women in bathing suits and high heels, whose most common superpower is the ability to mysteriously have their ass face the viewer a disproportionate amount of time, combined with super flexible spines, which allows them to perform their signature butt-struts while still keeping their boobs in full view.

Yeah, I know that it's usually done for marketing purposes (that's actually what links it to mediocre quality). My point was that there's almost nothing left where women aren't portrayed as stereotypical prostitutes, so there's in my opinion no link to offensive behaviour in men, since even guys who are not like that most likely consume tons of that stuff.

[Dallas-Dakota]

Yes, because all men are always hormonal beings who think of sex 24/7 and can't ever do anything else.:sigh:

[axarts]

Yes, because all men are always hormonal beings who think of sex 24/7 and can't ever do anything else.:sigh:

Wait... are you being sarcastic?

My god man. Think of the children!

[GoC]

They didn't see why it would be anything other than a compliment.
Could you explain it for the ignorant among us?:smallredface:
You mentioned possible danger (it seems strange to me but I'm a complete ignoramous when it comes to such things). Is there anything else?


I work damn hard to be known for my intellect and personality and to have someone want to "get it on" with you because you "are sexy" while they are merely driving past is demeaning. It's one thing to have my boyfriend say I'm hot, because he's referring to the whole package. I loathe when someone who doesn't know me does it.
Surely people admiring one thing about you doesn't make the others (intellect, ect) any less valuable? Especially if they don't know about the other valuable things (such as while driving past).


Catcalls are basically contemptuous, as well as threatening.
I've never cat called/wolf whistled so I want to know why you think they're doing it because of contempt? How can you tell they percieve women as inferior?
Is it just when they jeer? All I've seen is a bunch of late-middle-aged men sitting at tables outside a bar doing the equivalent of saying "hellooooooo sexy" (though somewhat snappier) or a group of young men whistling at distant women.

For this reason I can't see why anyone could feel the situation could turn violent. I haven't been out much while here in the UK. Are things very different here and in the US?


In both cases, the men have already been informed that many women don't like it
Interesting... it's mostly seen as complimentary (if a bit annoying) and validating (due to the social status of a women being linked to her looks) in Colombia.


The vast majority of insults men hurl are sexual in nature
Corrected.:smalltongue:
Musings: To respect something means to place value on it, right? Then aren't women being "respected" when they're complemented solely due to their looks? Or is it the fact that the body isn't a part of the actual person and merely a shell, a possession?
Why do we feel good when people compliment our looks or our possessions? Should "Nice car dude!" be considered a form of objectification (ignoring the actual person and focusing on the things he owns)?

[Serpentine]

Okay, I didn't realise that when we were talking about "catcalling" what was meant was "drunken idiots hurling nigh-unintelligable words out the window of a speeding car". Yeah, that is always... uncomfortable. But can I explain why? There's the thing I mentioned before, that I can't tell whether they're being serious or making fun of me. There is a sort of menace, like if they didn't happen to be in a car they'd run over and grope me. Um... Yeah, it's hard to explain. I think ThunderCat's idea, that it's got little to do with the target and much more to do with the perpetrator and his (or, yes, her) group, is quite believable. Which could contribute to the discomfort, perhaps: They're not actually communicating with the target, just drawing loud, raucus(sp?), uninvited, non-socially acceptable attention to her (or him).
And yes, I have seen some women do it, too. Normally drunk, normally... well, bogans. Or "college girls". And yeah, it seems like a twisted sort of mockery, whether done by men or women.
Basically, I suppose, it's not a compliment. It's louts behaving like idiots. It is, I think, even mocking the targets for being attractive, not praising them for it.

[GoC]

They're not actually communicating with the target
Hmm...
Seems to me they're communicating both with the target and their friends.
You're making statements but not explaining them. I suppose it's rather hard to explain a feeling though...

[Syka]

It's really hard to explain WHY it's not a compliment since it has to do with how it makes you feel. A compliment shouldn't make you feel ashamed. When I got cat called, I'd wonder what I'd done to make it seem like I'd want that sort of attention (and yes, it was directed at me since when they happened I was the only one out on the street and they were looking directly at me). I could have understood if I was dressed up or dressed provocatively, in which case I'm AIMING to be admired physically. But does that mean I give off some vibe of "hey, I want you to leer at me from a passing vehicle while shouting at me" even when I am fully and modestly clothed?

And there is a perceived threat of violence, especially the times when I'd ignore the guys and they would slow down next to me trying to get me to talk to them after having yelled something at me from the car. That's scary as hell when your alone on a street, even if it is during the day. Every now and then there would be someone in the distance but no close enough to make me feel more comfortable.

Cat calls are in no way admiring, to me. If someone were to approach me to my face and even say "Hey, you look really sexy" or something along those lines I'd not offended. It's the delivery in cat calls that make it offense. The caller has all the power in the situation- you generally do not have a chance to respond, and how are you supposed to respond to "UR SEXY! HEY! HEY! WOOO!" anyway?

Cat calls from females would also be offensive to me, but minus the threat of violence. Women, in general (NOT always), tend to be less violent than men, but I would also be on more even footing with another woman (unless they are super athletic or something).

[Arachu]

... Does she really have to explain it? :smallconfused:

Ugly, drunken idiot (or just drunken idiot, but it's kinda hard to tell from a car) yells semicoherent 'compliments' (which, as stated, are almost mockings in and of themselves) at you every time they drive by. Other 'normal' idiots stare and say things (and do things) so much that you have to look over your shoulder every waking second...

How is that a compliment? :smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:

(I haven't even been the subject and I have an inkling of it...)


EDIT: In the males' defense (damn my egalitarian nature, huh?), though males do tend to be more physically violent, females are also perfectly capable (and occasionally prone to it). Women tend to be violent a lot less often, but they are also entirely capable of being just as violent. I mean no offense, but the gender of the drunk wouldn't bring me much solace...

[Last_resort_33]

... Does she really have to explain it? :smallconfused:

I think it's time for a call to Captain Obvious (http://www.tomscott.com/captainobvious/)

Sorry, I've actually been looking for an excuse to use that for a while

Additionally, I would like to talk about this

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/friends.png

I see it all around me and it annoys the crap out of me. Guys who either can't see what they mean and what they are doing or are too much of a "nice" Scheming Bastard to care.

Additionally, and more relevant to what I am saying, those who think it is appropriate to say and do things inappropriate to female friends, and It's ok because they are only friends and just messing.

Unfortunately, a lot of geeky girls have had lots of problems with acceptance (usually caused by being geeky) and thus will not have the confidence to confront these people in case they lose their "friends". Over time they get used to, if not comfortable with this abuse and accept it as the norm... and the combination of this and the above comic occurs.

Or they start to cut themselves from their tortured conflicting feelings. And the guys causing this are Nice Guys that don't understand that they are doing anything wrong because they are kind, sensitive, caring and playful.

Unfortunately the people involved don't want me to confront or act negatively towards these people who, they (and were it not for this I would also) call friends.

Bottom line... Lots of Nice Guys aren't, even if they think they are. I see it all around me and a I keep a strong eye on it with myself. I would not claim to be free of blame, but I would like to think that I would notice if I was doing this. I might not.

Does anyone else have any problems like this or see them or do I just have Magic Eyes that see things wot don't exist?

Edit: I would like to confirm to people that this has NOTHING to do with anything I posted in the Relationship thread. That was an ENTIRELY separate incident, and in no way applicable.

[Serpentine]

This has come up before in this thread and the Relationship thread. It's too late right now for me to recap all my opinions on the matter (though the last discussion here I think was only a few pages ago if you wanna check it out), but you might be interested in a couple of my sig links.

[Last_resort_33]

This has come up before in this thread and the Relationship thread. It's too late right now for me to recap all my opinions on the matter (though the last discussion here I think was only a few pages ago if you wanna check it out), but you might be interested in a couple of my sig links.

I don't suppose you could point me towards a couple of instances of this discussion (specifically in relation to the outward acceptance of sexual assault by 'friends')

I have someone I really need to help, and being dyslexic, I have spent several hours reading through the two threads, but it's very slow going. I promise that I am not being lazy.

[DamnedIrishman]

I don't suppose you could point me towards a couple of instances of this discussion (specifically in relation to the outward acceptance of sexual assault by 'friends')


The discussion more or less started with this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6275707&postcount=838), but really gets underway from page 29 in this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112419&page=29)

As for the Relationship Woes thread, no idea. I don't read it very much.

[Serpentine]

Ah, no, the sexual assault bit's new. What exactly happens? :smalleek: Could be worth just calling them out on it, drawing everyone's attention to it and making it clear that, at least to you, it's unacceptable - if the victims are staying quiet, it could be because they think everyone around them is fine with it.
I think, most recently, the conversation more or less started on page 29 on this thread. A quick search on Google (the forum search is broken for anything earlier than April this year) finds...
Nothing, because my internet is being dumb again :sigh:

[DamnedIrishman]

(specifically in relation to the outward acceptance of sexual assault by 'friends')


Wait... what?

PLEASE TELL ME THIS NEVER HAPPENS.

[Dallas-Dakota]

Wait... are you being sarcastic?

My god man. Think of the children!
Stupid internet not carrying sarcasm across subtly, even when it was on full blast loudspeakers....

Edit : Edited as I ment to say it. >.>

[Syka]

What do you mean by sexual assualt? Are they groping someone (I've had a friend try to do that, he got smacked, literally)? Or is it sexual jokes, etc (my friends do this and I do it back, it's not assualt or offensive to me)?

Depending on what happened, it may just be that the person doesn't mind. My guy friends joke in a way that would make most girls uncomfortable, but it doesn't make me uncomfortable- probably because they do it to each other far more than me. But none of them have ever layed a hand on me (despite the statements of "We're here to support you" accompanied by cupping their hands, which has been going on for years). They know if they ever touched me in a way I have no expressly invited that they are getting a beat down.

[axarts]

Stupid internet carrying sarcasm across clearly, even when it was on full blast loudspeakers....

Needs more funktastic bass distortion.

In related news-

I read this:


(specifically in relation to the outward acceptance of sexual assault by 'friends')


And I thought this:


Wait... what?

PLEASE TELL ME THIS NEVER HAPPENS.

Edit: @^ yea, I could see that short of shenanigans maybe being called sexual assault, in some circumstances...

"We're here to support you" accompanied by cupping their hands
I giggled. Oh, mildly inappropriate innuendo, how you amuse me.

(Another edit later)


I'm sorry, but I can't lie to you. Well, I could. But I won't. Because I'm a ****. or maybe a *****. I can never really tell very well.

Neither can we. :smallconfused::smalltongue:


I think he meant that sarcasm is the enemy and it scars children.

That I did.

[Coidzor]

Wait... what?

PLEASE TELL ME THIS NEVER HAPPENS.

I'm sorry, but I can't lie to you. Well, I could. But I won't. Because I'm a ****. or maybe a *****. I can never really tell very well.

It's really annoying when a gay guy tries to pass it off as being ok since he's gay.

Or when girls do it to each other. Because then it's visually offensive and uncomfortable in its own right and reeks of mocking onlookers, especially men.

I've never really heard of or seen straight guys not get their asses handed to them for anything I'd view/recognize as sexual assault.

I mean, I knew one girl who basically would slap or otherwise fondle a guy's butt, depending upon familiarity, just to mess with 'em. It was... odd... when she offered her booty for practice in the proper form of spankage after it somehow came up in the off-color conversation of where we all worked at the university(ahh... workstudy students... left unattended...)... to say the least.


Stupid internet not carrying sarcasm across subtly, even when it was on full blast loudspeakers....

Edit : Edited as I ment to say it. >.>

I think he meant that sarcasm is the enemy and it scars children.

[Last_resort_33]

The discussion more or less started with this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6275707&postcount=838), but really gets underway from page 29 in this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112419&page=29)
much.

Ah, Yeah, I HAVE read those


Could be worth just calling them out on it, drawing everyone's attention to it and making it clear that, at least to you, it's unacceptable - if the victims are staying quiet, it could be because they think everyone around them is fine with it.

She has specifically said that she doesn't want me to call people up on it. (unfortunately some of the worst incidents I wasn't around to see) but I have picked people up on it, but according to her (the person I am particularly concentrating on) it makes her feel worse because she doesn't want to upset her friends, but will later cut herself because she feels violated. (Note I am not against self harm per se, but I am obviously against the upset that causes such extreme measures)


Wait... what?
PLEASE TELL ME THIS NEVER HAPPENS.

Huh... you'd hope wouldn't you. There is an immense sense of entitlement among a lot of men.

The problem is that it is a little an often. Comments about how attractive she is (which to be fair she is) begin to verge on the creepy side of the scale. Humorous breast grabbing is funny because they're a friend and are just mucking about. Lack of personal space. Not asking before hugging or picking her up. Lewd sexual remarks... It's not obvious, and 99% of individual incidents wouldn't even be worth mentioning. But it's there all the time.

And to top this off she's gay anyway... But she feels like if she were to get angry at these people, then she'd be entirely friendless.

It doesn't just happen to her or within this particular friendship group. Now I've seen it with her, I see it all around me.

[Last_resort_33]

I was working so I took a long time to make that last post and people have posted things since.



It's really annoying when a gay guy tries to pass it off as being ok since he's gay.

Two of the worst offenders claim to be asexual. One is a cis man and one is a trans man. (not that it makes a difference, but I would think that a trans man would have more sympathy)

The stuff is exactly like the Syka's support gag, but she DOES mind, she doesn't laugh, she just looks uncomfortable, doesn't make a fuss, leaves the room for a bit and looks miserable for the rest of the evening... and no-one but me notices, or at least no-one else does anything about it either... She says that I'm the only one she has told that she is upset about it, and the only one who has seen the cuts (admittedly by accident).

[multilis]

...They know if they ever touched me in a way I have no expressly invited that they are getting a beat down.
Gender difference, if a man ever gave a beat down to a woman who touched him in a way he had not invited... he would be the one in trouble.

Stats wise, men tend to have more variation from average than women, which means both more "genius" and more "idiot". (Eg math exam, men and women on average may score the same but more likely a man will be the top scorer and the bottom scorer)

[Coidzor]

I was working so I took a long time to make that last post and people have posted things since.


Two of the worst offenders claim to be asexual. One is a cis man and one is a trans man. (not that it makes a difference, but I would think that a trans man would have more sympathy)

Or less sympathy due to the potential of hatred of self-body transmitting to hatred of body-type. More subtle than that gross simplification...

But definitely odd.

I whole-heartedly support destroying their sophistry. Or them. Not enough real destruction these days, just mindless killing of the flesh.

[Syka]

Metaphorical beat down. If gropage is tried, they'd get smacked (seeing as they're likely stronger than me, shoving would be epic fail). If it's just unwanted touch (like hug or whatever), they'd get a serious talking to. I'm not a violent person, but I like my space. If a guy got groped, he's got every to shove the perpetrator away. Smacking (in the case of it being a girl) would likely be excessive.

Force used depends on force needed. If it's a fairly weak guy and a girl whose fairly strong, I don't see how smacking as a reaction to being groped would be inappropriate.

Like the guy who DID try to grope me? He's 6'3 and built HUGE. He was a football player. I'm 5'4 and...well, unstrong. When he went for the grope, it was during a brief hug, which the quickest way to stop what was happening was a light smack. If I'd tried shoving him away, it would have done exactly jack squat. He never tried again, either.

[SDF]

Stats wise, men tend to have more variation from average than women, which means both more "genius" and more "idiot". (Eg math exam, men and women on average may score the same but more likely a man will be the top scorer and the bottom scorer)

That is statistically fallacious. Controlled studies show little deviation.

[Last_resort_33]

Or less sympathy due to the potential of hatred of self-body transmitting to hatred of body-type. More subtle than that gross simplification...



Interesting thought. But in contrast, my husband is also trans and he is very damned sensitive about it, and even alerted me to some of the more subtle things that I hadn't seen. He and the other trans guy I am talking about seem to be polar opposites in a way. But that's another conversation.


I whole-heartedly support destroying their sophistry. Or them. Not enough real destruction these days, just mindless killing of the flesh.

Question is how to destroy something so subtle. Running along and picking someone up for a joke is in itself not something to complain about, I can't seem to put into words how saying that your friend is very attractive is, in this very specific case, upsetting and offensive.

I MUST emphasize to Syka that she is a very meek person who's greatest fear is to be friendless. She is a Morrowind, D&D playing sewing clothes for dolls sweetest, most kind person on earth and she doesn't want to cause a fuss and she has explicitly said that she doesn't want me to either... she just wants it to stop and to keep her friends, so she puts up with it.

[axarts]

I am not against self harm per se

Wait... what?

Self harm being harmful to the self, one would think being against it was fairly standard. :smallconfused:


Interesting thought. But in contrast, my husband is also trans and he is very damned sensitive about it, and even alerted me to some of the more subtle things that I hadn't seen. He and the other trans guy I am talking about seem to be polar opposites in a way. But that's another conversation.

Yea, the whole trans thing is a pretty confusing subject for gender relations.
(mindkerplode)


Question is how to destroy something so subtle.

Might I suggest something unsubtle?
Talk to the folks who are doing it, and explain why they should stop?

Cause putting up with something is the least effective thing I can imagine to make it stop.

(Also, Morrowind, Awesome)

[Coidzor]

Wait... what?

Self harm being harmful to the self, one would think being against it was fairly standard. :smallconfused:

Indeed. Though apparently stamping it out isn't really an option due to it being an addiction. Most annoying.


Yea, the whole trans thing is a pretty confusing subject for gender relations.
(mindkerplode)

Confusing!? It's like throwing a rat king into the mix. Most people simply can't conceive beyond gender binary. (http://qntm.org/?gay)


Might I suggest something unsubtle?
Talk to the folks who are doing it, and explain why they should stop?

Indeed... I can't exactly think up a specific platform of attack right now, but it seems the only real assured way of anything changing is if she starts to stand up for herself. All you can really do is provide a catalyst there... Any confrontation is ultimately going to devolve into her being put to the question unless there's a sufficient number of people in the mix that their disapproval/swaying to your side is enough to shame 'em alone.

[GoC]

... Does she really have to explain it? :smallconfused:
People care about the ignorant. Syka wants to educate me so that I in turn discourage this attitude and teach others so society changes for the better (at least that seems like her intention). Seems like a good reason to explain it...:smallconfused:


The caller has all the power in the situation- you generally do not have a chance to respond
A culture independant and context independant reason. Nice.
Still, it's a common power to not have isn't it? I've been subjected to more than a few fundamentalist rants from an uncle and it's socially unacceptable to simply walk away.
And a continous hour long rant seems far more unpleasant than a whistle.

More random musings: Has society become too sensitive? Too unable to cope?
Is it better or worse to have a hardier psyche?
What is a damaged psyche?
What are the consequences of one?

@all^Interesting posts btw.


Might I suggest something unsubtle?
Talk to the folks who are doing it, and explain why they should stop?
I'd also recommend he practice his explanation first. Think of all possible arguments and come up with counters. Make his own argument solid and convincing.
This is worth taking some time out to do properly.

Also, would it be possible to improve this friend's self-confidence and teach her to be assertive? That would be the optimum choice as I'm sure there are many more things apart from sexual harrassment to worry about.
Teach a man to fish...

[potatocubed]

I MUST emphasize to Syka that she is a very meek person who's greatest fear is to be friendless.

All I have to contribute is that there is a big difference between having very few friends, who are all ace, and having loads of friends who are all prize turds. Culling some of your crowd doesn't mean getting rid of all of them.

[axarts]

Indeed. Though apparently stamping it out isn't really an option due to it being an addiction. Most annoying.

You mean we can't just kill them off?
:smallconfused:


Confusing!? It's like throwing a rat king into the mix. Most people simply can't conceive beyond gender binary. (http://qntm.org/?gay)

Oh, you. Bringing your logic into something that's clearly between one man, one woman, and one god. (Wait, what? Polygamy isn't allowed?) :smallamused:


Culling some of your crowd doesn't mean getting rid of all of them.

Unless they move in herds.

But, yea, you're right. Losing a few "friends" that are being abusive isn't really much of a loss.

[Pyrian]

I mean, I knew one girl who basically would slap or otherwise fondle a guy's butt, depending upon familiarity, just to mess with 'em. It was... odd... when she offered her booty for practice in the proper form of spankage...Well, at least she's consistent, I suppose.

[ThunderCat]

Isn't the average bust size of women a 34B?
At least, I think it is in the U.S.The breasts are bigger here (Denmark) :smallwink:

Anyway, what I meant was that a lot of people seem eager to find a connection between the catcalls, and the appearance and behaviour of the women who receive them, just like they do in regards to rape. What I was trying to say, is that the behaviour (in this case, catcalls from men towards women) doesn't come from the people who get called, it comes from the callers. There are cases in which receivers of a certain behaviour can be said to have cased it themselves, such as people who threaten or deliberately insult other people, who might not have been prone to violence without this provocation, or hurting others who might not cry under usual circumstances, but do so due to the hurt. But all theoretical and empirical evidence points to actions such as catcalls being independent of stimuli from the receivers. Or in other words, bound to happen anyway, regardless of the behaviour by people outside the group the men are trying to impress (which tend to be other men). We need to stop asking what it is about some girls and women that case them to receive catcalls, and start looking closer at what it is among groups of guys that causes them to make them.

As for the subject of women catcalling men, it wasn't the subject I was responding to. I don't deny that it happens, but I haven't heard or read enough about to say whether not the dynamic is the same. I don't think it is, because the power balance between between the sexes is different, but generally, my guess is that the girls are either emulating the guys, trying to bond with each other, and feeling brave and in control (daring to jeer at strangers), or they're doing it as an honest compliment, likely figuring that its different for boys (which it generally is).

Yeah, I know that it's usually done for marketing purposes (that's actually what links it to mediocre quality). My point was that there's almost nothing left where women aren't portrayed as stereotypical prostitutes, so there's in my opinion no link to offensive behaviour in men, since even guys who are not like that most likely consume tons of that stuff.Agreed. But some prefer it more than others, and prefer different kind. I wouldn't presume to be able to categorise every single consumer of these products, but I'm pretty sure at least some of them like the way women are portrayed, especially because I've heard quite a few of them say so (including guys who considered the word 'whore' to be among the vilest insults a woman could receive). Besides, I refuse to believe consumers of porn view it despite the tendency for the women to look like sex workers (given that they are, in fact, sex workers). And likewise, guys who praise the tasteful (http://www.pen-paper.net/images/rpgdb/apl0908.jpg) and historically correct (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RCYWP5Z9L._SS500_.jpg) art of covers from Avalanche Press, while at the same time using the word 'cheap' about women in a degrading way, don't get much sympathy from me.

[Coidzor]

Lack of a healthy male archetype as young men fall through the cracks between the patriarchy and the inroads feminism has made. Leading to what I've seen called a cult of hypermasculinity first amongst poorer men with no real prospects and then spreading as it gets a foothold in the popular and mainstream culture. Not that these problems and behaviors didn't exist before tthe current iteration of the cult of hypermasculinity, but I think there has been some evidence to show that it is at least getting in the way of fixing 'em.

That, and men don't give a **** about men who aren't their offspring or at least related to them, so in patriarchy, to be male is the only thing that many see as what they have going for them, having no real prospects, leading to resentment of women for various reasons (take opportunities away from them either by competition or 'affirmative action,' women trying to make themselves out as better'n them.) it's not a perfect fit, but go ahead and look at an example within US history... at the sentiments and so on of poor white southerners after slavery was repealed and blacks started getting rights...

[ThunderCat]

I'm not sure about that Coidzor. It's a good theory, and it's very trendy nowadays to talk about a backlash from feminism, but the problem is that these behaviours aren't new enough for that. Furthermore, they seem even more widespread in actual patriarchies. For instance, I've read several reports abut street harassment of women in many Muslim countries (shouts, jeering, grabbing, sexual assault), and you can't tell me that's because of 'the inroads feminism has made'. As I've said before, if all the things feminism was accused of having caused was actually caused by feminism, there would be very few places in the world more feminist than Afghanistan under the Taliban, while Sweden would mostly be a patriarchal paradise. Somehow, it just doesn't add up :smallconfused:

[Coidzor]

I'm not sure about that Coidzor. It's a good theory, and it's very trendy nowadays to talk about a backlash from feminism, but the problem is that these behaviours aren't new enough for that. Furthermore, they seem even more widespread in actual patriarchies. For instance, I've read several reports abut street harassment of women in many Muslim countries (shouts, jeering, grabbing, sexual assault), and you can't tell me that's because of 'the inroads feminism has made'. As I've said before, if all the things feminism was accused of having caused was actually caused by feminism, there would be very few places in the world more feminist than Afghanistan under the Taliban, while Sweden would mostly be a patriarchal paradise. Somehow, it just doesn't add up :smallconfused:

Well, part of it is entering into political territory when you look at how well patriarchies are doing in the world today. So there's a bit of room for that. Even if just working from the poverty angle.

I don't agree with the idea of "falling through the cracks" due to feminism, per se, was more just trying to state what I could remember of the general conception of that idea.

I'm pretty sure a good part of it is that there's not a healthy archetype of manhood floating around, really, and the worse you have it, the more you wanna make someone else have it worse than you. Hence the comments about poverty.

Going back to my allusion to southern race-relations... The upper-class could afford to be more patronizing because they had the wealth and status to be comfortable in knowing they were better than everyone around them. The poorer, uncouth ruffians running around these days don't have that, but they do have a (sub)culture that deals in currency of status and the easiest way of getting status is to dump vitriol on out-groups like homosexuals and women.

[ThunderCat]

For this reason I can't see why anyone could feel the situation could turn violent. I haven't been out much while here in the UK. Are things very different here and in the US?I don't live in the US, I'm Danish. We don't have the same culture of catcalling here, likely due to a combination of being fairly introverted, fairly feminist (compared to most other countries), and fairly small. But it happens, and the gender dynamic is similar.

Interesting... it's mostly seen as complimentary (if a bit annoying) and validating (due to the social status of a women being linked to her looks) in Colombia.Isn't that bad enough in itself? :smallconfused:

Corrected.:smalltongue:
Musings: To respect something means to place value on it, right? Then aren't women being "respected" when they're complemented solely due to their looks? Only, it's not just the looks (hence why very large breasted women often receive more calls), it's about a show (not necessarily real) of sexual interest. And that's just not always flattering, because the stereotype of men not respecting women they have sex with.

For instance, its fairly common for (female) strippers to receive degrading comments, either to their face or behind their backs, even by their own customers. In this case, the men are paying to see women they find sexually attractive, and yet society, and even the people who enjoy strippers, find it to be shameful (for the strippers, not the people who pay to see them). Try calling a girl a stripper (which is, after all, a woman so sexy men are willing to pay just to see her naked) and see if she takes it as a compliment. There's also the stereotypical portrayal of guys using girls sexually, after which the girls lose their social status, while the guys can still go around with their head held high. How could that not make girls suspicious when guys express a sexual interest in them?

Or the guys (frequently portrayed in popular culture) who hang around trying to score with as many women as they can, but as soon as the sister of one of them comes by, the brother immediately gets protective, because he doesn't want his friends to treat his sister like they usually treat sexy girls. How could that be, if being leered at by guy was so flattering? And how about the way some guys insult each other by claiming they've slept with the other guy's mother (or other female family member)? If it wasn't often considered a form of conquest for a man to sleep with a woman (and by extension, often a form of defeat for the woman, and indirectly her family), it wouldn't be so insulting in the first place. If it was so flattering for women to get sexual attention, how come more fathers don't dress their daughters in skimpy tops and hot pants, and have them walk down the streets while men whistled and jeered at them? If sexual attention was so flattering for girls, it would certainly build up their confidence.

Or is it the fact that the body isn't a part of the actual person and merely a shell, a possession?
Why do we feel good when people compliment our looks or our possessions? Should "Nice car dude!" be considered a form of objectification (ignoring the actual person and focusing on the things he owns)?Again, catcalling isn't about complimenting a woman's looks. The difference between a guy calling you attractive to your face (preferably with a friendly smile) is quite different from a group of guys yelling at you, in a way that makes it clear they're not actually interested in your opinion.

[DamnedIrishman]

Question is how to destroy something so subtle. Running along and picking someone up for a joke is in itself not something to complain about, I can't seem to put into words how saying that your friend is very attractive is, in this very specific case, upsetting and offensive.


I don't mean to reveal how much of a chauvinistic pigdog I really am and advise that the brave knight rides off to save the damsel in distress, but quite frankly there's a time where one must make a decision with regards to one's own ethics, however other might feel.

In this case, it goes something like this:
Is this OK? Hell no.
She might not want you to make a scene, but do what (I think) you really want to do and stand up to these people on her behalf. You're her friend - even if these people disappear, you can be there for her so she's not alone, and you can help her meet people who treat her with respect.

They make think it's funny and harmless, but if this is regularly causing her distress then they're not thinking of her feelings, and they're damn well not her friends.

I don't like dumping this on you, but some things have to be stopped, and you're apparently the only one in a position to do it.

Unless you live in England, in which case I'd be perfectly happy to come up/down there and do something myself. THIS IS NOT A JOKE.

...

[/RAGE]

Seriously. Help your friend in need.

[Quincunx]

Last_resort_33 et alia: I think we can file that intervention under "stopping bullying" or "fighting jerkwads with jerkwads" and not even bring the purity and sweetness of the target into it. It's tempting to be the shining knight for someone sweet and pure, but it's not necessary. Someone being a jerk is providing plenty enough justification for you to stop them being a jerk, with only the value judgment of "you--stop being a jerk".

GoC: I'm not touching the dynamics of safely ignoring family members with a ten-foot pole (I like to live :smalltongue: ). Luckily, family and catcalling don't overlap. . .usually. Other forms of sexual chattel. . .well, read this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4332391) if you will. Anyway. Strangers.

Strangers. People whistling at you who don't know you and don't want to get to know you. People who would want to get to know you would say something which invited a reply. People who might lay their hands on you with hands as aggressive as a voice, but with no interest in the human social activity of 'getting to know you'--that's a danger signal.

[Last_resort_33]

I don't mean to reveal how much of a chauvinistic pigdog I really am and advise that the brave knight rides off to save the damsel in distress, but quite frankly there's a time where one must make a decision with regards to one's own ethics, however other might feel.

In this case, it goes something like this:
Is this OK? Hell no.
She might not want you to make a scene, but do what (I think) you really want to do and stand up to these people on her behalf. You're her friend - even if these people disappear, you can be there for her so she's not alone, and you can help her meet people who treat her with respect.

They make think it's funny and harmless, but if this is regularly causing her distress then they're not thinking of her feelings, and they're damn well not her friends.

I don't like dumping this on you, but some things have to be stopped, and you're apparently the only one in a position to do it.

Unless you live in England, in which case I'd be perfectly happy to come up/down there and do something myself. THIS IS NOT A JOKE.

...

[/RAGE]

Seriously. Help your friend in need.

Thanks... I think I will... I just don't know how I'm going to do it without reducing it to individual petty incidents. I will just have to feel bad about breaking my promise not to do anything...

If I can't get through to them then I might just take you up on your offer (How's York for you?)

Thanks for your help... Writing this stuff down has really helped clarify what's really going on.

To be honest it's gone a bit OT, I meant to treat it as a thought exercise into the way that people who pretend to respect women frequently commit minor sexual assault/harassment. This is systemic, and people (without using the terminology assault/harassment) seem to assume it's OK when the see it becasue they don't recognise it for what it is.

I got a bit carried away with the personal issues when I started writing it down.

I don't want people to think that it is an isolated incident it goes on subtly everywhere I just didn't realise it until I saw the cuts.

[DamnedIrishman]

Thanks... I think I will... I just don't know how I'm going to do it without reducing it to individual petty incidents. I will just have to feel bad about breaking my promise not to do anything...

If I can't get through to them then I might just take you up on your offer (How's York for you?)

Thanks for your help... Writing this stuff down has really helped clarify what's really going on.

To be honest it's gone a bit OT, I meant to treat it as a thought exercise into the way that people who pretend to respect women frequently commit minor sexual assault/harassment. This is systemic, and people (without using the terminology assault/harassment) seem to assume it's OK when the see it becasue they don't recognise it for what it is.

I got a bit carried away with the personal issues when I started writing it down.

I don't want people to think that it is an isolated incident it goes on subtly everywhere I just didn't realise it until I saw the cuts.

York is within reach, though God help us all if things get to that point, as strangers aren't always the people most welcomed to deal with such things. But if I'm needed, I'll do my best.

Some people say you shouldn't interfere with other people's lives. At the end of the day though, you've just got to do what you think is right. I've dealt with self-harm before. If you ever want to talk about anything, feel free to PM me.

[GoC]

Isn't that bad enough in itself? :smallconfused:
Just pointing out that the intention isn't to degrade the women in question where I come from (though it may be degrading to women as a whole).


Only, it's not just the looks (hence why very large breasted women often receive more calls), it's about a show (not necessarily real) of sexual interest. And that's just not always flattering, because the stereotype of men not respecting women they have sex with.

For instance, its fairly common for (female) strippers to receive degrading comments, either to their face or behind their backs, even by their own customers. In this case, the men are paying to see women they find sexually attractive, and yet society, and even the people who enjoy strippers, find it to be shameful (for the strippers, not the people who pay to see them). Try calling a girl a stripper (which is, after all, a woman so sexy men are willing to pay just to see her naked) and see if she takes it as a compliment. There's also the stereotypical portrayal of guys using girls sexually, after which the girls lose their social status, while the guys can still go around with their head held high. How could that not make girls suspicious when guys express a sexual interest in them?

Or the guys (frequently portrayed in popular culture) who hang around trying to score with as many women as they can, but as soon as the sister of one of them comes by, the brother immediately gets protective, because he doesn't want his friends to treat his sister like they usually treat sexy girls. How could that be, if being leered at by guy was so flattering? And how about the way some guys insult each other by claiming they've slept with the other guy's mother (or other female family member)? If it wasn't often considered a form of conquest for a man to sleep with a woman (and by extension, often a form of defeat for the woman, and indirectly her family), it wouldn't be so insulting in the first place. If it was so flattering for women to get sexual attention, how come more fathers don't dress their daughters in skimpy tops and hot pants, and have them walk down the streets while men whistled and jeered at them? If sexual attention was so flattering for girls, it would certainly build up their confidence.
Again, catcalling isn't about complimenting a woman's looks. The difference between a guy calling you attractive to your face (preferably with a friendly smile) is quite different from a group of guys yelling at you, in a way that makes it clear they're not actually interested in your opinion.
This is way too interesting for a response in the ten minutes I have. I'll have a look at it more thoroughly in... well, Friday really.
I'll be on planes all tomorrow, then a bus on Wednesday, then catching up on sleep and spending time with immediate family for the first time in 9 months.:smallsmile:

Quincunx: Wow. This quote in that thread:

"Is this how you treat other human beings? As assets? Because if that's the case, then you're one of those people actually losing the human race!"
Shows me that I'm not sexist, just me-ist.:smalltongue: For me men, women and animals are all means to an end. I've heard this attitude is just another stage on the road to enlightenment. Agree/disagree?

[DamnedIrishman]

Shows me that I'm not sexist, just me-ist.:smalltongue: For me men, women and animals are all means to an end. I've heard this attitude is just another stage on the road to enlightenment. Agree/disagree?

That depends. Are you planning on walking the left-hand or the right-hand path to enlightenment?

[CrimsonAngel]

At school girls run 45 laps, and boys run 60. We play hockey, but the coaches don't watch us, and it was HOT outside! The girls got to swim.

[Faulty]

Lack of a healthy male archetype as young men fall through the cracks between the patriarchy and the inroads feminism has made. Leading to what I've seen called a cult of hypermasculinity

This is false. The cult of machismo, as it's called, has been around for a long time. Read Gabriel Garcia Marquez's book Chronicle of a Death Foretold. It's about two brothers who murder a man who was accused of taking their sister's virginity, even though they know he's innocent, because it's the manly thing to do.


Shows me that I'm not sexist, just me-ist.:smalltongue: For me men, women and animals are all means to an end. I've heard this attitude is just another stage on the road to enlightenment. Agree/disagree?

The road to being a total jerk, maybe.

[THAC0]

So I thought I'd throw this out there... what are your thoughts on forms of address for males versus females?

[Serpentine]

Interesting thought. But in contrast, my husband is also trans and he is very damned sensitive about it, and even alerted me to some of the more subtle things that I hadn't seen. He and the other trans guy I am talking about seem to be polar opposites in a way. But that's another conversation.Wait, you have a husband? Man, there's a lot I don't know about you...
Hey, in places with "ABSOLUTELY NO GAY MARRIAGE EVAAAAAAARRRR!", what happens when someone gets married, for example, to a woman as a man, but then changes to a woman later? Is the change not accepted, or the marriage, or neither?

Yeah, I think it could be a good idea to take them aside and explain to them everything you've explained to us. It may very well be that they're not aware of it at all, and they may need you to point it out to them to notice the signs. I think picking out specific incidents to highlight and clear-cut the problem would be useful, but mostly address it as a whole, emphasise that it's not the individual things that are so hurtful, it's the behaviour and implicit accompanying attitude overall.

Still, it's a common power to not have isn't it? I've been subjected to more than a few fundamentalist rants from an uncle and it's socially unacceptable to simply walk away.I would. If someone's rude to me, they have foregone their right for me to not be rude to them (though I may choose to, as a matter of principle). And ranting at someone on your own views without any possibility of a response is incredibly rude.
More pertinent to this conversation, however, is that your choice not to respond or walk away is your choice. You could do it if you want to, but you choose to bow to what you perceive as social constraints. What's a catcalled-at girl going to do? Chase the car? And in at least one of the examples Syka gave, when they followed her, that's just downright harassment, and threatening. 'seven worse.

Thundercat, would you mind telling us your age and background and the like? I'm curious to know whether all this stuff you're coming up with comes from experience, intuition, research or education.
I think you might be getting a big over-analytical in places - after all, it's not as though these guys go around deciding, "hey, lets go objectify some women tonight!" and the like - but overall they look like pretty good explanations.

[Recaiden]

Mrs., Miss, Mr., etc? That a lot of them are based off of the -ess suffix, which I believe comes from Latin, and may be considered sexist, I think because of the tendency to default to a male form as neutral when not using it in terms of address, again, from Latin. Latin may have gotten the practice someplace else.
There's nothing inherently sexist about them, but there may be some subtle connotations to them. I doubt people could be gotten to change them though. And what would we do?

[Pyrian]

What's a catcalled-at girl going to do?When I lived in a college town, I observed a group of very attractive young women waiting to cross the street. A car full of young men drove by, whooping it up. The girls casually awroo'd right back, then continued their conversation as if nothing had happened.

I've always felt like both sides of that exchange were simply speaking a language I wasn't privy to.

[Coidzor]

So I thought I'd throw this out there... what are your thoughts on forms of address for males versus females?

Erm. I use Sir and Ma'am if I have to use a form of address. If I'm referring to 'em by last name to another person I'll use Mr. and Mrs. or Ms. I think I default to Mrs. due to an unfortunate verbal tic I developed somehow when I would refer/address to my teachers as a student. Somehow I had frequent problems with saying one thing and meaning your mother or something. Not even really a spoonerism though I have been known to have trouble with that.

Otherwise I'd devolve to Ms. when using a name. Rarely I'll use Mr./Ms. and a firstname as a sort of inbetween formal and intimate address.

Mostly though I just call women ma'am and damn the consequences of whether they get mad at me or not for calling them old or something, since I'd rather get that levied at me than for it to be yakked about that I don't respect women properly just because I didn't know how a woman preferred to be referred to before addressing her.

I'll usually take people's requests into mind, but the sir/ma'am thing is pretty ingrained.

Occasionally if it's a woman/girl I deem worthy of flirtation I'll slip into spanish, french, or german, mademoiselle, demoiselle, fraulein, senora(senorita always feels silly on my tongue...<_< >_>)... that sorta thing, due to it being more of a sign of showing interest and attempting to be playful than anything else.

[Quincunx]

CrimsonAngel: The difference in laps run (or median speed the different groups can be expected to cover in one P.E. class) is fair, but I would hope there's a rotation in the pool usage!

. . .Come to think of it, I'm a bit baffled by a P.E. class that is anywhere near an equal boy:girl ratio and thus able to divide the equipment. For a subject everyone was supposed to take, I sure got some skewed ratios attending it.

THAC0: If I could collectively deck* the entire area south of the Mason-Dixon line for the usage of "ma'am", I would. Yankee, dontchaknow. That's ageism, though, not related to sexism. In fact, almost all my rules on address seem to be age-related, including the one that says "Miss" is valid from ages 2 to 18 and stops being valid once high school ends and legal adulthood begins.

*American colloquialism for "punch 'em so hard they pass out and hit the deck they're standing on".

[Coidzor]

So what is supposed to be used then if Miss and Ma'am (and I'm guessing Madam(e)) are out?

[Last_resort_33]

Wait, you have a husband? Man, there's a lot I don't know about you...
Hey, in places with "ABSOLUTELY NO GAY MARRIAGE EVAAAAAAARRRR!", what happens when someone gets married, for example, to a woman as a man, but then changes to a woman later? Is the change not accepted, or the marriage, or neither?


When we got married, Olli was still presenting as female. He got married in a dress, which he calls the last dress he will ever wear. 6 months later, he came out to the rest of the world and is now living full time as male...

The reason being that to get your legally recognised gender changed you have to go through hell and back with medical people who don't really know what they're talking about. But first you have to get on the "NHS Waiting List" of DOOM.

When he does get his gender legally recognised, our marriage will be converted to a civil partnership (UK government's 'Marriage lite' for teh ghayz) and he will be allowed to take testosterone.

Don't plan to go many places that don't allow gay marriage, If they don't like gay marriage, they're less likely to like gay trans people.



Yeah, I think it could be a good idea to take them aside and explain to them everything you've explained to us. It may very well be that they're not aware of it at all, and they may need you to point it out to them to notice the signs. I think picking out specific incidents to highlight and clear-cut the problem would be useful, but mostly address it as a whole, emphasise that it's not the individual things that are so hurtful, it's the behaviour and implicit accompanying attitude overall.


It's a large group of people and they're all a little bit guilty... Also I can't tell them that she's cutting herself otherwise they will be all over her in a "we're really nice and we want to help so stop it" kind of way.

I tried pulling someone up on something last night. He said that he was only messing. "You're allright yeah?" He looked at her for confirmation and she gave him a weak smile and said "yeah".

I'm going to try to confront them as a group. Don't know where it'll get me but it's worth a try.


On the new topic: This is Yorkshire, so everyone calls everyone Love the exception being two men of a similar age who will call each other mate or occasionally ****.

[arguskos]

Hey, in places with "ABSOLUTELY NO GAY MARRIAGE EVAAAAAAARRRR!", what happens when someone gets married, for example, to a woman as a man, but then changes to a woman later? Is the change not accepted, or the marriage, or neither?
I can't speak definitively, but I know that here in the States, that depends on if the individual in question changes their gender with the state or not and if the state recognizes gay marriage as legitimate.

If the individual stays on record as their original gender and/or the state recognizes gay marriage (such as Massachusetts), there should be no issue. If they ask the state to change it and the state doesn't recognize gay marriages, there could be issues. I haven't heard any cases of that occurring, but likely the state would annul the marriage, it no longer being a legally binding pairing in the state's eyes.

Of course, this is mostly speculation based on my admittedly limited knowledge of the issue. Take that as you will. Just thought I'd toss that into the arena. Hope I didn't offend anyone. I'm veeery careful with these discussions, since folk too frequently misinterpret my words as something hateful. :(

[Serpentine]

When he does get his gender legally recognised, our marriage will be converted to a civil partnership (UK government's 'Marriage lite' for teh ghayz) and he will be allowed to take testosterone.So your marriage will be annulled, then? Is that right? Oh, and my surprise was pretty much just a "huh, I thought I kinda knew him... Shows what I know." sort of a thing.
And partnership? Really? What happened to "civil union"?

I suppose I figured the options (on the part of authorities) were ignore/don't accept the sex change and keep the marriage as is, consider it a gay marriage and therefore illegal and annulled, or only consider the sexes at the point of marriage, in which case anything later doesn't matter... Something like that.

[Coidzor]

So your marriage will be annulled, then? Is that right? Oh, and my surprise was pretty much just a "huh, I thought I kinda knew him... Shows what I know." sort of a thing.
And partnership? Really? What happened to "civil union"?

Same idea, change wording slightly to represent different geopolitical area. Possibly different rights granted for various reasons.

Oh goody, even the surgeons and hormone regulators don't know what they're on about... That's gotta be fun to have your plumbing nackered with in such an environment... ... I'm suddenly reminded of Hedwig and the Angry Inch...

[Last_resort_33]

Same idea, change wording slightly to represent different geopolitical area. Possibly different rights granted for various reasons.

Oh goody, even the surgeons and hormone regulators don't know what they're on about... That's gotta be fun to have your plumbing nackered with in such an environment... ... I'm suddenly reminded of Hedwig and the Angry Inch...

The Surgeons know what they're talking about (although FTM genital surgery is rubbish and costs more than our house, so Olli will be keeping his vagina, only the breasts will be going)... It's just the psychologists/psychiatrists etc. that you have to get the diagnosis from don't.

[Faulty]

So I thought I'd throw this out there... what are your thoughts on forms of address for males versus females?

I don't consider marriage to be a valid or respectable institution, so I consider "Mrs." to be negative (and sexist). IMO, there's no need to go beyond Mr. and Ms. I call people Mister and Miss. I don't really like Sir, it makes me think of nobility and the upper class, which is not something I'm fond of, predictably.

[DamnedIrishman]

So I thought I'd throw this out there... what are your thoughts on forms of address for males versus females?

I use traditional forms of address regularly, as in person I often have a (somewhat pompous) floriographic mode of speech:
"Quite so, Mr Wells. And how is the charming Miss Thompson today?"

However, this is tempered by what people are comfortable with. I'm happy to refer to people using Ms. if they prefer it, or to do away with titular address altogether if it is disliked.

"Sir" and "Ma'am" are used for addressing persons who I don't know the name of in situations when "mate" or "duck" (East Midlands slang) won't be appreciated - generally older persons who aren't always happy with casual address.

Consideration to the other is the crucial factor. I generally respect academic titles, though religious and noble titles I only recognise if I like the individual in question. I greet my parish priest as "Father", because despite my atheism and rejection of his church, I still respect him as an intelligent person. His co-priest I greet with "Sir" or "Mr [...]" because I can't stand the man.

EDIT: I also make use of the title "Master" with unmarried men, which people often forget. "Mister" is the equivalent of "Mrs", "Master" the equivalent of "Miss". There's technically no male equivalent of "Ms" (which is pronounced 'Muzz' with a short 'u' to differenciate from "Miss").

EDIT2: Thinking about it, M(uh)ZZ might be a better phoneticisation without resorting to doing it properly and breaking out the IPA.

[Pyrian]

So what is supposed to be used then if Miss and Ma'am (and I'm guessing Madam(e)) are out?There's always Ms., but personally I'm fond of "milady". :smallcool:

[averagejoe]

I like that Ms. exists, but find it aesthetically wanting. Out of the three ladies' titles, I think Miss is the most pleasing and should mean what Ms. does.

That said, I don't think I've ever called anyone "sir," "ma'am," "Mr," or "Miss/Mrs/Ms," except ironically, or when it's a teacher. The words don't see much use at all 'round these parts in my experience, unless someone is trying to sell you something.

[Recaiden]

Mr. and Mrs. would be equivalents, for married men and women, although Mr. is used for all adult men around here unless they have some other title, such as Dr., or are some religious figure.

I didn't think I'd ever be annoyed at how changes have ruined perfectly good words.:smallsigh:

And now I don't know what word to use. I don't think I can, in good conscience, use any of them, for men or women.:smallannoyed:

[THAC0]

My personal opinion on the matter... The fact that the polite form of address for women changes based on age and marital status, while the form of address for men doesn't is vaguely annoying. Over the past two years, I've gotten accustomed to being called ma'am.

So pretty much for me, I find the issue vaguely irritating in an academic sense.

If I ever get a real title I'll be excited. :smallbiggrin:

[DamnedIrishman]

And now I don't know what word to use. I don't think I can, in good conscience, use any of them, for men or women.:smallannoyed:

"Cousin" for people your age or lower, "Uncle" and "Aunt" for people older than you. That's an alternative cultural slant on the issue.

[DamnedIrishman]

My personal opinion on the matter... The fact that the polite form of address for women changes based on age and marital status, while the form of address for men doesn't is vaguely annoying. Over the past two years, I've gotten accustomed to being called ma'am.

So pretty much for me, I find the issue vaguely irritating in an academic sense.


Yes. They. Do.

A bachelor is Master Whatever.
A married man is Mister Whatever.

They just happen to have the same prefix: Mr.

[Quincunx]

I'd have to hand my genitals back to the issuing authority in shame if I ever called anyone 'master' anything.

[LXH]

The Surgeons know what they're talking about (although FTM genital surgery is rubbish and costs more than our house, so Olli will be keeping his vagina, only the breasts will be going)... It's just the psychologists/psychiatrists etc. that you have to get the diagnosis from don't.
Might be a bit off topic so feel free to PM me if you want to respond at all. I've heard some pretty nightmarish stories about the UK's NHS. People have said they'll pay for the requisite transition costs and some of the (arguable) peripheral surgeries, but will insist you also get genital surgery. I have been told if one elects not to get that final surgery, they'll try to collect on all the money spent on your surgeries up to that point. Is this true?

If so, that's pretty awful and would amount to practically forcing someone to undergo surgery in order to save their bank accounts.

[DamnedIrishman]

I'd have to hand my genitals back to the issuing authority in shame if I ever called anyone 'master' anything.

If anything, calling someone 'master' in a traditional sense is tantamount to calling them either 'boy' or 'failure' - since in traditional circles, a man who fails to find himself a wife is a failure as his lineage will end with him.

Legitimately, at least...

[THAC0]

Yes. They. Do.

A bachelor is Master Whatever.
A married man is Mister Whatever.

They just happen to have the same prefix: Mr.

I've never heard anyone called master. I'm aware of the historical existence of the word. I've just never in my life heard it used.

[Krrth]

I've never heard anyone called master. I'm aware of the historical existence of the word. I've just never in my life heard it used.

I have. It's not used much anymore, probably due to perceived (rightly or wrongly) connotations of the word.

You're much more likely to encounter it in "Formal" occasions.

[mercurymaline]

I've never heard anyone called master. I'm aware of the historical existence of the word. I've just never in my life heard it used.

I have only heard this from the mouths of Australian and English acquaintances. The word has...unfortunate implications in America, and I think that usage here has died.

[Faulty]

Something I found on that NiceGuy site. The first post of this thread (http://www.the-niceguy.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=16251)is really disturbing. It's really got the "oh God white Christian men are being persecuted, boo hoo" thing going on.

I swear, male heterosexual WASP types are the most paranoid people ever. They've managed to make up feminazi conspiracies, gay conspiracies, non-white racial conspiracies, Zionist conspiracies, atheist conspiracies. I really wish I could put those people in a reverse hypothetical matriarchal society where whites, Christians and heterosexuals are a minority, and see how good they feel.

[Recaiden]

"Cousin" for people your age or lower, "Uncle" and "Aunt" for people older than you. That's an alternative cultural slant on the issue.

Maybe where you live. I've never heard that here. Which is great! Good idea.

[Pyrian]

Paranoia is a natural consequence of being on top. They really are all out to get a piece of what you have! :smallcool:

[Faulty]

Paranoia is a natural consequence of being on top. They really are all out to get a piece of what you have! :smallcool:

Touché, good sir.

The weirdest part is how he says that all ideologies are fascist and then justifies his obviously extreme conservatism by saying conservatism isn't an ideology. Most opponents to Socialism are ignorant, idiots or misinformed. :smallsigh:

[Jack Squat]

Most opponents to Socialism are ignorant, idiots or misinformed. :smallsigh:

I'd be careful with that statement. Not only could it be construed as flaming, but it's also fairly political in nature.

Besides, I'd argue that most people are ignorant, idiots, or misinformed, regardless of ideologies. :smalltongue:

[DamnedIrishman]

Maybe where you live. I've never heard that here. Which is great! Good idea.

It's not common where I live. You get it a bit in very rural parts of Galway in Ireland. And I'm told that you also get it in some middle eastern countries, but I couldn't verify that as I was just told so by my last boss, a muslim gentleman from Bangladesh.

[averagejoe]

Yes. They. Do.

A bachelor is Master Whatever.
A married man is Mister Whatever.

They just happen to have the same prefix: Mr.

Hmmm... first I've heard about it, or at least the first in a long time. I don't think it counts if nobody knows about it anymore. I think here in America we mostly just associate "Master," with the British (whether correctly or incorrectly.)

[DamnedIrishman]

here in America we mostly just associate "Master," with the British (whether correctly or incorrectly.)

BECAUSE WE ARE YOUR RIGHTFUL MASTERS, PITIFUL COLONISTS!

Ahem, jokes aside...

The terms exist. Education is always the thing. Feminists have that exact problem - people reinventing the wheel because they're not aware of the work of earlier feminists (or assuming that earlier feminists are man-hating madwomen), rather than progressing united.

[averagejoe]

The terms exist. Education is always the thing. Feminists have that exact problem - people reinventing the wheel because they're not aware of the work of earlier feminists (or assuming that earlier feminists are man-hating madwomen), rather than progressing united.

Yes, but the point is that we effectively don't have such a term in America. The term exists, but only in British English. Over here we 1) don't use it and 2) don't generally know what it means.

[Arachu]

"United we stand, Divided we fall"

Just one of the infinite statements that can be learned from in history...

:roach: